A subcontrabassoon!? That would be a great idea! All we have to do (after the instrument is made) is revive the semi-contrabassoon, build the semi-subcontrabassoon, build a hyperoctosubcontrabassoon, and build a semi-hyperoctosubcontrabassoon. After all that, the Bassoon Family will be complete.
Sounds interesting, however, (and I believe you've come up with the right look, but the problem is getting a lung big enough to power it. To play such a thing should be counted as an Olympic event. I'd love to hear it when it's done, though. Like Shane Horn points out, it's top heavy. Putting the weight on the ground is important. Also, it might need its own wheels in a parade.
Thanks so much for your interest in the project! As large as it is, due to the bassoon family's modest bore proportions, the size of the air column is in the same general vicinity as that of a contrabass tuba or the contrabass saxophone. The reed, likewise, has a similar aperture size to some of the large, contrabass single reed instruments. For these reasons, I believe the challenges of air support can be overcome (just as they are on the tuba and the large flutes). In short, though a subcontrabassoon would never be able to hold a note as long as an oboe (for example), I believe it will not be at too great of a disadvantage. And if I'm wrong, I'm working on my circular breathing! As for the top heaviness, this is unfortunate but any of the solutions I came up with (playing the instrument from stranding position; adding a solid lead weight at the bottom of the instrument; rewrapping the entire instrument into a shorter overall height) would have carried other drawbacks that I judged to be greater than the top-heaviness.
@@bamaslamma1003 That would do. You might need to get permission & clearance from the USGS before you play it, though. Those booming trunk lids would pop off with this one!
What YOU need, is funding from a college! But of course most colleges will find this impractical at first, but with more research in the project, this can be a legitimate thing!
It should also called the octocontrabassoon. Awesome reinvention though. And I’m looking forward to see a debut of that instrument hopefully on America’s Got Talent.
WHOA! What an instrument. It would be great to see it in any ensemble, especially a band or orchestra. I’d be curious to know if this project ever came to fruition. Any leads? (-:
There's been quite a bit of work done towards a fully playable prototype, including some preliminary recordings. ruclips.net/video/ABTngab-b2A/видео.html
However: Contrabass Clarinet players have repeatedly said: “When I play on Lower range... I can’t even read sheet music because my head is vibrating at those frequencies!”
Wow, I just started playing the Bassoon a couple years ago and this looks crazy! The keys are funky, the bocal is crazy big, and the thing is 7 ft tall! I really want to play that now
So basically it would be a full octave below the octocontralto clarinet, because the contralto is in the same pitch as the bassoon, and the octocontralto and the contrabassoon are in the same pitch, and the subcontrabassoon is a whole octave lower than the contrabassoon, the closest instrument that it could compete is the octocontabass clarinet which is the lowest woodwind instrument (to my knowledge), so if I’m correct, this would be the lowest pitched instrument in the ensemble
A normal contraalto clarinet has a range to either Gb1 or Eb1 (depending on if it has keywork to low C or not), so a bit lower than the bassoon. The octocontraalto clarinet had a range to Eb0 (a perfect fifth below the contrabassoon's low Bb), written as low C. Earlier sources had the octocontrabass clarinet with a range to Bb-1 (an octave below the contrabassoon), but more recent evidence suggests C0 (to written low D). The subcontrabassoon will descend to A-1 (an octave and a half-step below the contrabassoon's low Bb), so lower than any other woodwind (at least that I know of).
Ok - awesome pieces of music for subcontra: 1 - Also sprach Z 2 - Brahms 1, finale chorale 3 - Mother Goose suite 4 - Beethoven 5th, finale Other suggestions welcome!
This looks like a fun and interesting design. Now, I don't play the bassoon or contrabassoon, but what I was getting from seeing the fingering is that you complicatedly put the fingerings in strange places, causes it to be harder to play scales and such. I'm probably wrong and I just didn't look at it as much as I should have, but keep that into consideration.
Trey Tillotson The fingering is simply a contrabassoon fingering scheme missing a few duplicate keys (which could be added on post-prototype instruments if it were felt necessary). Complicated? Yes, but complicated in a way that bassoonists and contrabassoonists would be familiar with.
I'm so glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about the project so we can make it a reality. Happy Subcontrabassoony 2015!
I strongly recommend you prototype this using 3D printing technology! Sure, it wouldn’t sound as good as “the real thing”; it would be “just a prototype.” Still, you could almost certainly learn a lot from the experience! For example, you could probably refine the intonation, and define a full-range fingering chart (or at least a prototype of it).
Great design although I have one input, I know it's common practice to put the low A key with the Eb and C# keys, but I feel it might be a more effective approach to put the low A key in the place of the Low Bb key, and add the Bb key as an Accidental key with the Eb and C#. I Don't know how it would work in practice but to me it seems like a much more conventional idea.
It's certainly an interesting idea. In fact, since both keys are planned to be cable-driven, it wouldn't be any more difficult than rerouting some cables and tweaking some of the lengths of the cable arms. As low A becomes more common on contrabassoon (of which I consider the contraforte a subtype) it's perhaps inevitable that the traditional low A placement will be reexamined. One advantage of the traditional placement is that the only really impossible slur is between low A and low Eb, which would be less common than either Bb/Eb or Bb/Db. It could be worth reshaping the lowest pinky key so that it has an extension running along side the low C# key and can then be used with low Eb more easily (similar to the low Bb key on some older saxophones). Thanks so much for the input!
+KillerOHerobrine ! As Roy said earlier, there are one or two organs in the world with a complete, functional range down to C-2 (8ish Hz). But it would be the lowest woodwind, to the best of my knowledge.
Yes! A subcontrabassoon! All we need now (after the instrument is made) is to revive the semi-contrabassoon, and create a semi-subcontrabassoon. Then the bassoon family will finally be completed. BTW, I'm designing an instrument, and I already have a prototype of it. Hope the subcontrabassoon exists in the future.
Thanks for your answer, how very interesting, it literally roars !! The Contra is one of my favourite fetish instrument in the orchestra particularly where it is exposed as in Ravel, R Strauss (Salome) etc... Regards *Gus
Thanks so much for your interest. First of all, the first prototype is still in progress. Any subcontrabassoon sounds you've heard on my channel or elsewhere are digital imitations made by pitching the contrabassoon down. So we don't yet know exactly what a subcontrabassoon will sound like. There are two main reasons I chose to base the subcontrabassoon bore dimensions on the bassoon and contrabassoon, rather than the contraforte. First of all, the contraforte has a larger bore and reed than a traditional contrabassoon. Since the scale of the subcontrabassoon is already so extreme, I believe sticking with more conservative dimensions based on a traditional contrabassoon will be a better starting point. Second of all, though there are many fine contraforte players out there, I still prefer the sound of a well-played traditional contrabassoon to that of a well-played contraforte (I do, however, concede that it's easier to achieve "well-played" on contraforte than it is on traditional contrabassoon). This is purely an issue of personal taste on my part. If my prototype is a success and Wolf decides to try making a "subcontraforte", I will be the first in line to hear how it plays!
thank you for responding to my comment, I saw the video om how you got the subcontrabassoon sound and I just thought that the contrabassoon and contraforte are like the clarinet and saxophone, the clarinet is thin and sounds really good on the high pitched notes, but the saxophones gradually widening bore allows it to really hold those low notes.I know that as a bass clarinet player, and between me and my friend who plays bari sax, his low notes can really flow with the wide boar.
Acoustically, the contrabassoon and contraforte are much more similar to one another than the clarinet and saxophone are. The clarinet has a cylindrical bore as opposed to the saxophone's conical bore; this has a much greater impact on the tone quality than the fact that the saxophone bore is (on average) wider. Both the contrabassoon and contraforte are conical instruments (the cylindrical double-reed instruments died out with the crumhorns and racketts); the contrabassoon just has a slightly more shallow taper.
So, I am a classical composer (when I'm not being a student), and I enjoy the idea of possibly someday writing for some of the more… unique instruments of the orchestra. Would you say that it is safe for me to use this instrument, or should I wait for the completion and then further more to when they become more abundant?
If you are concerned with having your work performed in the near future, I would wait. There's still quite a bit of time to go before the prototype is finished, and more time still before there are multiple instruments (if, in fact, the prototype is successful enough for others to want one). However, a handful of composers have already written for it and seeing what composers create using the idea of the subcontrabassoon is one of my favorite parts of the project.
Richard Bobo Ive been following this project for a number of years, I think your work in pioneering and giving a chance to low instruments is very admirable. I am passionate for the same thing just on the clarinet family (I play Bb contrabass, soprano, and most of the time bass). Just curious about a time estimate till this magnificent project is complete! Your hard work is appreciated (yes even by clarinetists), Lukas Johnson
I really love the concept, but I’m not sure there’s all that much value in pitches down to 13.75Hz. Hardly anybody would be able to hear the fundamental, other than right up close to it. All that most people would hear would be the harmonics, I’d expect. So, I’m concerned that it would sound like “too much rattle and not enough rumble.” Also, unlike an organ pipe its hard to imagine it would have much “sensoround” shaking effect. But again, I like the concept!
+roy childs We're likely very distantly related (most American Bobos are descended from a Gabriel Beaubau who emigrated from France in the 1680's) but, practically speaking, no.
5610winston Yes! Wolf's contraforte recently explored the use of Bowden cables (the generic term for the type of cable used on bicycles) for the register holes on the bocal. For 5 of the subcontrabassoon's keys (low A, low Bb, low D, low Eb and low F) traditional keywork would be very complicated, long, spread out over multiple joints, and likely prone to alignment troubles. On the prototype I plan to replace most of the keywork for these keys with Bowden cables in the hope that these troubles are lessened or at very least easier to adjust. As this is the most radical part of the design (from a technical, rather than quantitative) standpoint it's quite possible this aspect of the design will be unsuccessful and need to be replaced with traditional keywork. But, I think the advantages are great enough to be worth trying.
@@Subcontrabassoon It's still a mechanical linkage. As long as you can figure out how to properly multiply the force, it shouldn't be too difficult. The difficulty lies in converting the pull of the cable to the larger rotational energy needed to open the valves. (My brain: "Just throw some solenoids on there and call it a day.")
I mean I am happy to see that its being made but how necessary is it to have an instrument that goes 1 full octave below the contrabassoon and is 2 m. tall. xD
Haha, even though I believe your question was rhetorical, I'm going to go into marketing mode and say that I believe having a woodwind in the otherwise inaccessible subcontrabass octave is more necessary than say, a contrabass flute, whose range is already well covered by the bassoon, bass clarinet, and baritone saxophone.
+papoocanada On the one hand, that's to be expected. That would be like someone writing for the clarinet before the clarinet even existed. However, I could also point you to composer Robert Rønnes's Adagio "Waking Up From the Sleep" for Solo Subcontrabassoon and Bassoon Quartet. ruclips.net/video/XSAb232VNVA/видео.html
Yes! The prototype doesn't have keywork yet, but you can hear it in action in this video (ruclips.net/video/ABTngab-b2A/видео.html) as well as several other recent videos on my channel.
This seems like a hazard. People who play contrabassoon constantly are known to get fractures in the jaw from the vibrations over time. I’m sure a subcontrabassoon would amplify the problem.
As a professional contrabassoonist who is friends with many professional contrabassoonists, this is literally the first I've heard of such a thing. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I have to wonder if you're over-extrapolating from an anecdote.
I had a professor in college who played bassoon with a symphony in Hong Kong. Their contra had this happen to them. But he was a dedicated contrabassoon player, it’s all he played all the time.
Since you're designing a "new" instrument anyway, why a subcontrabassoon and not a subcontraforte? (BTW, as a Contrabass-L member [Grant, does it still exist?], I remember your post from 1999!!!)
Great question. My own opinion is that "contraforte" is simply Wolf's trade name for a specific design of contrabassoon. I do not feel that they are completely different instruments and personally think that new contrabassoons 50 years from now will include elements of both traditional contrabassoon and contraforte designs. But, most importantly, even if I wanted to call my instrument a "subcontraforte" it would be unethical (and probably legally actionable) to do so as I am not working with Wolf. However, if my campaign is successful and the subcontrabassoon becomes a reality and then Wolf wants to redesign it and release a "subcontraforte" then that is their right.
Eshan Kwatra At present, I've only figured the cost of the raw materials, tools, and other tangible supplies. I wouldn't be able to estimate a total cost until I complete the prototype.
Well, it will play down to A-1, even lower than the famous C0 in Kraft's Encounters II. I wouldn't guarantee that there aren't tuba players capable of reliably playing down there, but I certainly don't know of any.
Thanks for the reply! Hopefully you won't mind if I address some of your skepticism. 1) Almost all instruments were invented first, and only written for after (bass trumpet and Wagner being an exception). For example, there wasn't any repertoire for bass clarinet before it was invented. Expecting there to be a robust repertoire for an instrument that's in the design stage is "putting the cart before the horse" in my opinion. 1a) Despite that, there actually is a handful of recent works that optimistically include a subcontrabassoon part. Robert Rønnes wrote a bassoon quintet featuring it, Matthias Hutter wrote a chamber work for double-reeds and strings including it, and Bret Newton has added an optional part in a symphony for wind ensemble. 2) Simply put, the contrabassoon can't go low enough. The best orchestral example I know of is reh. 6 of Saturn in The Planets. This whole passage has the organ doubling the contrabassoon in unison AND an octave below (the marking "16ft and 32ft" in the score) . 9 measures before the end of the piece, this passage descends all the way to C0 (16Hz), an octave below the contra's and basses' low C. Holst had no choice but to use the organ here, as no wind or string instrument could play that low. But because most symphony halls lack real organs with 32' stops, this passage is very rarely experienced how it was intended to be. But if composers were able to use this register without having to rely upon an organ (which is non-portable, incredibly expensive, and musically inflexible in the 32' register) I believe they'd use it even more often.
Fair enough. My justification has been that, for nearly 400 years, the truly great organs have had 32' stops allowing a range down to C1. I want to bring that capability to the orchestra and believe that expanding the bassoon family is the best way to do that. Regardless of your skepticism, thanks for following the project. I hope I can change your mind once the prototype is finished!
Richard Bobo Let's say that the Subcontra Bassoon is created, allowing for the extension down to C1. How big of an impact would that have in the orchestra? Does the organ really need to be relieved of it's lower range? Would the low range even produce a sound vibrant enough to be heard clearly? Would the amount of air it takes to fill up the instrument truly be enough to last a phrase? I would also like to ask about the Subcontrabass Clarinet. I believe only one was created and it wasn't worth the time it took to create it. Can you possibly see your Subcontra Bassoon following the same path? I apologize for the amount of questions I have given you. I am curious and I would love to hear your response.
(Sorry in advance for the long post) 1) The organ doesn't need to be relieved on its lower range, just like the oboe isn't rendered obsolete by the violin. Both can exist at the same. However, the subcontra will be portable and musically flexible in ways the organ is not, in addition to being less expensive. 2) When it comes to the octocontraalto and octocontrabass clarinets, my opinion for why they weren't successful is the harmonic structure of the clarinet timbre. When a clarinet plays an Eb3, the harmonics that are most apparent are Eb3, Bb4, G5, Db6, etc: the odd harmonics. This isn't a problem for Eb3, since the Eb3 harmonic is easily and near-universally audible. When you get to Eb0, however, clarinet acoustics are such that there is no easily and universally audible Eb anywhere in the spectrum. (Most people can hear lower than 20Hz, but it gets progressively more difficult the lower you go). When the subcontrabassoon plays Eb0, however, it will have a full harmonic spectrum including Eb1, Eb2, Eb3, etc. It is my opinion that this will make it a more successful subcontrabass woodwind than the "octos". 3) As for the potential usefulness of the lowest notes, do a RUclips search for "subcontrabassoon sound tests'. You should find some videos I made playing around with a digitally pitched-down contrabassoon to explore where the subcontrabassoon may be useful and where it probably won't. (Make sure you listen to these videos with a subwoofer, otherwise you won't get the full effect.) 4) As for projection with a full orchestra, I believe that (just like the contrabassoon) the subcontrabassoon will be most effective in smaller combinations, rather than full tuttis. Even the tuba cannot compete against a full orchestral tutti in the lowest part of its range. 5) For air requirements, one of the advantages of the bassoon family (versus the saxophone and flute families) is the relatively more efficient air requirements. And because of the narrowly tapered bore, the subcontrabassoon will actually have an air column volume roughly at the same scale as some of the largest saxophones or the contrabass tuba. So yes, breathing will be a challenge, but I believe it will be one that can be overcome. 6) Finally, I look at the project more like a science project, rather than a fully commercial endeavor. As such, I am absolutely willing to concede the possibility that the instrument will not be a success. (That's why I am not taking preorders or establishing a waitlist yet.) But, that would not make the project a failure. Even if the only thing we learn from the project is that a subcontrabassoon is not musically effective, we will have learned something we did not know before. In short, when it comes to new things, skepticism is healthy. Skepticism keeps us from eating unfamiliar mushrooms from the woods. But, for every delicious and edible mushroom, someone had to be the first one to try it.
Are you sure it won't collapse the building?
As long he does not use a leafblower to play notes, it probably will not. But... Wait a second. I think that is not a bad idea. :)
No, that would be the hyperoctosubcontrabassoon.
@@jadenkeith6257 which you have to book a week in advance because it takes so long for the sound to travel from one end to the other 😂
Lmao
A subcontrabassoon!? That would be a great idea! All we have to do (after the instrument is made) is revive the semi-contrabassoon, build the semi-subcontrabassoon, build a hyperoctosubcontrabassoon, and build a semi-hyperoctosubcontrabassoon. After all that, the Bassoon Family will be complete.
Sounds interesting, however, (and I believe you've come up with the right look, but the problem is getting a lung big enough to power it. To play such a thing should be counted as an Olympic event. I'd love to hear it when it's done, though.
Like Shane Horn points out, it's top heavy. Putting the weight on the ground is important. Also, it might need its own wheels in a parade.
Thanks so much for your interest in the project! As large as it is, due to the bassoon family's modest bore proportions, the size of the air column is in the same general vicinity as that of a contrabass tuba or the contrabass saxophone. The reed, likewise, has a similar aperture size to some of the large, contrabass single reed instruments. For these reasons, I believe the challenges of air support can be overcome (just as they are on the tuba and the large flutes). In short, though a subcontrabassoon would never be able to hold a note as long as an oboe (for example), I believe it will not be at too great of a disadvantage. And if I'm wrong, I'm working on my circular breathing! As for the top heaviness, this is unfortunate but any of the solutions I came up with (playing the instrument from stranding position; adding a solid lead weight at the bottom of the instrument; rewrapping the entire instrument into a shorter overall height) would have carried other drawbacks that I judged to be greater than the top-heaviness.
As far as the wind goes, I have a 5hp air compressor with a 60 gallon tank. Should be plenty.
@@bamaslamma1003 That would do. You might need to get permission & clearance from the USGS before you play it, though. Those booming trunk lids would pop off with this one!
What YOU need, is funding from a college! But of course most colleges will find this impractical at first, but with more research in the project, this can be a legitimate thing!
+We'll Do It Live! Certainly something to look into in more depth if the self-funded route ends up taking too long!
It should also called the octocontrabassoon. Awesome reinvention though. And I’m looking forward to see a debut of that instrument hopefully on America’s Got Talent.
Now we can make more effective fart sounds in a orchestra!
Yes
Beyond extraordinary!! Bravissimo!!!
I...want...have...now!!!!
WHOA! What an instrument. It would be great to see it in any ensemble, especially a band or orchestra.
I’d be curious to know if this project ever came to fruition. Any leads? (-:
There's been quite a bit of work done towards a fully playable prototype, including some preliminary recordings. ruclips.net/video/ABTngab-b2A/видео.html
"The scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they forgot to ask if they should."
However: Contrabass Clarinet players have repeatedly said:
“When I play on Lower range...
I can’t even read sheet music because my head is vibrating at those frequencies!”
Wow, I just started playing the Bassoon a couple years ago and this looks crazy! The keys are funky, the bocal is crazy big, and the thing is 7 ft tall! I really want to play that now
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."
This should be displayed at MIM when it's finished!
If MIM wants one, they're going to have to either commission one, or wait until I die.
@@Subcontrabassoon I hope MIM commissions one...
I like how devoted and committed you are about your Dream of this instrument. Now that’s true passion. Much respect to you.
Such a sweet and mellow sound! Warming and relaxing feel. Thank you for that!
So basically it would be a full octave below the octocontralto clarinet, because the contralto is in the same pitch as the bassoon, and the octocontralto and the contrabassoon are in the same pitch, and the subcontrabassoon is a whole octave lower than the contrabassoon, the closest instrument that it could compete is the octocontabass clarinet which is the lowest woodwind instrument (to my knowledge), so if I’m correct, this would be the lowest pitched instrument in the ensemble
A normal contraalto clarinet has a range to either Gb1 or Eb1 (depending on if it has keywork to low C or not), so a bit lower than the bassoon. The octocontraalto clarinet had a range to Eb0 (a perfect fifth below the contrabassoon's low Bb), written as low C. Earlier sources had the octocontrabass clarinet with a range to Bb-1 (an octave below the contrabassoon), but more recent evidence suggests C0 (to written low D). The subcontrabassoon will descend to A-1 (an octave and a half-step below the contrabassoon's low Bb), so lower than any other woodwind (at least that I know of).
Richard Bobo oh okay, thank you
Ok - awesome pieces of music for subcontra:
1 - Also sprach Z
2 - Brahms 1, finale chorale
3 - Mother Goose suite
4 - Beethoven 5th, finale
Other suggestions welcome!
Haydn Schöpfung, Bach Johannespassion
Mahler, Strauss.....
This looks like a fun and interesting design. Now, I don't play the bassoon or contrabassoon, but what I was getting from seeing the fingering is that you complicatedly put the fingerings in strange places, causes it to be harder to play scales and such. I'm probably wrong and I just didn't look at it as much as I should have, but keep that into consideration.
Trey Tillotson The fingering is simply a contrabassoon fingering scheme missing a few duplicate keys (which could be added on post-prototype instruments if it were felt necessary). Complicated? Yes, but complicated in a way that bassoonists and contrabassoonists would be familiar with.
This just made my whole new year
I'm so glad to hear you enjoyed the video. Be sure to tell your friends and colleagues about the project so we can make it a reality. Happy Subcontrabassoony 2015!
I strongly recommend you prototype this using 3D printing technology! Sure, it wouldn’t sound as good as “the real thing”; it would be “just a prototype.” Still, you could almost certainly learn a lot from the experience!
For example, you could probably refine the intonation, and define a full-range fingering chart (or at least a prototype of it).
I'm decently thinking about donating now! This is sooo cool! I wanna see this thing exist!
I believe in you! You can do it! I will be your motivation. 👍
Coming back here after the reveal of the real thing. Congrats!
Great design although I have one input, I know it's common practice to put the low A key with the Eb and C# keys, but I feel it might be a more effective approach to put the low A key in the place of the Low Bb key, and add the Bb key as an Accidental key with the Eb and C#. I Don't know how it would work in practice but to me it seems like a much more conventional idea.
It's certainly an interesting idea. In fact, since both keys are planned to be cable-driven, it wouldn't be any more difficult than rerouting some cables and tweaking some of the lengths of the cable arms. As low A becomes more common on contrabassoon (of which I consider the contraforte a subtype) it's perhaps inevitable that the traditional low A placement will be reexamined. One advantage of the traditional placement is that the only really impossible slur is between low A and low Eb, which would be less common than either Bb/Eb or Bb/Db. It could be worth reshaping the lowest pinky key so that it has an extension running along side the low C# key and can then be used with low Eb more easily (similar to the low Bb key on some older saxophones). Thanks so much for the input!
this would be the lowest instrument ever made
+KillerOHerobrine ! How about a 64' stop in a pipe organ?
+KillerOHerobrine ! As Roy said earlier, there are one or two organs in the world with a complete, functional range down to C-2 (8ish Hz). But it would be the lowest woodwind, to the best of my knowledge.
Richard Bobo probably the subcontratuba
Rikkie Gieler there is already a subcontrabass tuba but it won't go as low as this.
@G G lol
Yes! A subcontrabassoon! All we need now (after the instrument is made) is to revive the semi-contrabassoon, and create a semi-subcontrabassoon. Then the bassoon family will finally be completed. BTW, I'm designing an instrument, and I already have a prototype of it. Hope the subcontrabassoon exists in the future.
HelicopterHarmonics what's the prototype?
Anoyth A single reed instrument with 3n+1 (1,4,7,10,13,16...) harmonics.
Thanks for your answer, how very interesting, it literally roars !! The Contra is one of my favourite fetish instrument in the orchestra particularly where it is exposed as in Ravel, R Strauss (Salome) etc... Regards *Gus
you should try making another prototype, one like the contraforte, which in my opinion would have a much better sound.
Thanks so much for your interest. First of all, the first prototype is still in progress. Any subcontrabassoon sounds you've heard on my channel or elsewhere are digital imitations made by pitching the contrabassoon down. So we don't yet know exactly what a subcontrabassoon will sound like.
There are two main reasons I chose to base the subcontrabassoon bore dimensions on the bassoon and contrabassoon, rather than the contraforte. First of all, the contraforte has a larger bore and reed than a traditional contrabassoon. Since the scale of the subcontrabassoon is already so extreme, I believe sticking with more conservative dimensions based on a traditional contrabassoon will be a better starting point.
Second of all, though there are many fine contraforte players out there, I still prefer the sound of a well-played traditional contrabassoon to that of a well-played contraforte (I do, however, concede that it's easier to achieve "well-played" on contraforte than it is on traditional contrabassoon). This is purely an issue of personal taste on my part. If my prototype is a success and Wolf decides to try making a "subcontraforte", I will be the first in line to hear how it plays!
thank you for responding to my comment, I saw the video om how you got the subcontrabassoon sound and I just thought that the contrabassoon and contraforte are like the clarinet and saxophone, the clarinet is thin and sounds really good on the high pitched notes, but the saxophones gradually widening bore allows it to really hold those low notes.I know that as a bass clarinet player, and between me and my friend who plays bari sax, his low notes can really flow with the wide boar.
Acoustically, the contrabassoon and contraforte are much more similar to one another than the clarinet and saxophone are. The clarinet has a cylindrical bore as opposed to the saxophone's conical bore; this has a much greater impact on the tone quality than the fact that the saxophone bore is (on average) wider. Both the contrabassoon and contraforte are conical instruments (the cylindrical double-reed instruments died out with the crumhorns and racketts); the contrabassoon just has a slightly more shallow taper.
So, I am a classical composer (when I'm not being a student), and I enjoy the idea of possibly someday writing for some of the more… unique instruments of the orchestra. Would you say that it is safe for me to use this instrument, or should I wait for the completion and then further more to when they become more abundant?
If you are concerned with having your work performed in the near future, I would wait. There's still quite a bit of time to go before the prototype is finished, and more time still before there are multiple instruments (if, in fact, the prototype is successful enough for others to want one). However, a handful of composers have already written for it and seeing what composers create using the idea of the subcontrabassoon is one of my favorite parts of the project.
Richard Bobo Ive been following this project for a number of years, I think your work in pioneering and giving a chance to low instruments is very admirable. I am passionate for the same thing just on the clarinet family (I play Bb contrabass, soprano, and most of the time bass). Just curious about a time estimate till this magnificent project is complete!
Your hard work is appreciated (yes even by clarinetists),
Lukas Johnson
you know theres a octobass clarinet
The word I would describe this video is
Unreasonable
I was so happy about a water key
Amazing idea it would be amazing if you could actually get them on the market 😆👍
You’re going to need to carry around 4 cases just for that one instrument.
I really love the concept, but I’m not sure there’s all that much value in pitches down to 13.75Hz.
Hardly anybody would be able to hear the fundamental, other than right up close to it. All that most people would hear would be the harmonics, I’d expect. So, I’m concerned that it would sound like “too much rattle and not enough rumble.”
Also, unlike an organ pipe its hard to imagine it would have much “sensoround” shaking effect.
But again, I like the concept!
This could rival the octocontrabass clarinet
This has 20 parts, and counting!
What are those black tubes?
Those are bowden cables (think bicycle brake lines). I've used them for 5 keys where traditional keywork would be cumbersome.
Are you related to the famous bass tuba player, Roger Bobo?
+roy childs We're likely very distantly related (most American Bobos are descended from a Gabriel Beaubau who emigrated from France in the 1680's) but, practically speaking, no.
Are those bicycle-type cables?
5610winston Yes! Wolf's contraforte recently explored the use of Bowden cables (the generic term for the type of cable used on bicycles) for the register holes on the bocal. For 5 of the subcontrabassoon's keys (low A, low Bb, low D, low Eb and low F) traditional keywork would be very complicated, long, spread out over multiple joints, and likely prone to alignment troubles. On the prototype I plan to replace most of the keywork for these keys with Bowden cables in the hope that these troubles are lessened or at very least easier to adjust. As this is the most radical part of the design (from a technical, rather than quantitative) standpoint it's quite possible this aspect of the design will be unsuccessful and need to be replaced with traditional keywork. But, I think the advantages are great enough to be worth trying.
@@Subcontrabassoon It's still a mechanical linkage. As long as you can figure out how to properly multiply the force, it shouldn't be too difficult. The difficulty lies in converting the pull of the cable to the larger rotational energy needed to open the valves.
(My brain: "Just throw some solenoids on there and call it a day.")
I mean I am happy to see that its being made but how necessary is it to have an instrument that goes 1 full octave below the contrabassoon and is 2 m. tall. xD
Haha, even though I believe your question was rhetorical, I'm going to go into marketing mode and say that I believe having a woodwind in the otherwise inaccessible subcontrabass octave is more necessary than say, a contrabass flute, whose range is already well covered by the bassoon, bass clarinet, and baritone saxophone.
And there's an octocontrabass clarinet, so why not a subcontrabassoon?
So, I enjoyed the music far too much - how can I find more like it?!
I love the idea but no one has ever scored for such a deep wind instrument - ever.
+papoocanada On the one hand, that's to be expected. That would be like someone writing for the clarinet before the clarinet even existed. However, I could also point you to composer Robert Rønnes's Adagio "Waking Up From the Sleep" for Solo Subcontrabassoon and Bassoon Quartet. ruclips.net/video/XSAb232VNVA/видео.html
See if you can sell some front row seats to some elephants... 😅 maybe they'd join in!
1:57 *plays a Low C on the Subcontrabassoon*
Won't some of the low notes be inaudible?
+Eli Jarnagin ruclips.net/video/5JrLm0z2wQ8/видео.html
This video answers exactly that question!.
The Octobass if the woodwinds
You know shit is real when it has 2 thumb rests
One day a wooden version might be…
I can't wait to see one!
Nor can I!
Has there been any more progress?
Yes! The prototype doesn't have keywork yet, but you can hear it in action in this video (ruclips.net/video/ABTngab-b2A/видео.html) as well as several other recent videos on my channel.
@@Subcontrabassoon great! I'm really fascinated by this, keep up the good work :)
This seems like a hazard. People who play contrabassoon constantly are known to get fractures in the jaw from the vibrations over time. I’m sure a subcontrabassoon would amplify the problem.
As a professional contrabassoonist who is friends with many professional contrabassoonists, this is literally the first I've heard of such a thing. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I have to wonder if you're over-extrapolating from an anecdote.
I had a professor in college who played bassoon with a symphony in Hong Kong. Their contra had this happen to them. But he was a dedicated contrabassoon player, it’s all he played all the time.
Is it close yet, I saw this video 2 years after it's posting and would like to know the progress
Since you're designing a "new" instrument anyway, why a subcontrabassoon and not a subcontraforte? (BTW, as a Contrabass-L member [Grant, does it still exist?], I remember your post from 1999!!!)
Great question. My own opinion is that "contraforte" is simply Wolf's trade name for a specific design of contrabassoon. I do not feel that they are completely different instruments and personally think that new contrabassoons 50 years from now will include elements of both traditional contrabassoon and contraforte designs. But, most importantly, even if I wanted to call my instrument a "subcontraforte" it would be unethical (and probably legally actionable) to do so as I am not working with Wolf. However, if my campaign is successful and the subcontrabassoon becomes a reality and then Wolf wants to redesign it and release a "subcontraforte" then that is their right.
in what time do you think you will be finished?
This is so amazing!
And whats about the Organ there behind?
Bassoons are deep enough.
If it ever gets built. Do I need to ask for permission to use it in a piece I'm planning on writing?
there are 2 organs that can play lower then this one of them being the biggest
How wide would the reed be???
*Double subcontrabasson*
With this instrument, everyone could have better memorisation and wouldn’t have the need for sheet music
Not like they could see it anyway
That is a legitimate concern, but in my tests with the partially-complete prototype, I think it's overcomeable.
What song was playing during the design of the instrument?
It sounds almost like a double bass.
What about the reed? Do you have an idea for it?
What’s the audio in the background?
How much would this cost?
Eshan Kwatra At present, I've only figured the cost of the raw materials, tools, and other tangible supplies. I wouldn't be able to estimate a total cost until I complete the prototype.
How long do you think it would take to make the prototype?
Thanks
Also how much do you think it would weigh, Thanks.
Roughly 16kg/36lb. If you're interested in more information, you can find some here: subcontrabassoon.com/faq.html
it's like an evil snake :D
PETITION FOR SUBCONTRABASS CLEFF
Just why
I play the contrabassoon
Don't make it lower than a BBb tuba
Well, it will play down to A-1, even lower than the famous C0 in Kraft's Encounters II. I wouldn't guarantee that there aren't tuba players capable of reliably playing down there, but I certainly don't know of any.
wow
and yet still not as low as an octosubcontrabass clarinet lol
Kind of silly. No repertoire exists for this. And the contrabassoon can go low enough.
Thanks for the reply! Hopefully you won't mind if I address some of your skepticism. 1) Almost all instruments were invented first, and only written for after (bass trumpet and Wagner being an exception). For example, there wasn't any repertoire for bass clarinet before it was invented. Expecting there to be a robust repertoire for an instrument that's in the design stage is "putting the cart before the horse" in my opinion. 1a) Despite that, there actually is a handful of recent works that optimistically include a subcontrabassoon part. Robert Rønnes wrote a bassoon quintet featuring it, Matthias Hutter wrote a chamber work for double-reeds and strings including it, and Bret Newton has added an optional part in a symphony for wind ensemble. 2) Simply put, the contrabassoon can't go low enough. The best orchestral example I know of is reh. 6 of Saturn in The Planets. This whole passage has the organ doubling the contrabassoon in unison AND an octave below (the marking "16ft and 32ft" in the score) . 9 measures before the end of the piece, this passage descends all the way to C0 (16Hz), an octave below the contra's and basses' low C. Holst had no choice but to use the organ here, as no wind or string instrument could play that low. But because most symphony halls lack real organs with 32' stops, this passage is very rarely experienced how it was intended to be. But if composers were able to use this register without having to rely upon an organ (which is non-portable, incredibly expensive, and musically inflexible in the 32' register) I believe they'd use it even more often.
Another good orchestral example of the 32' register of the organ being requested is Ralph Vaughn William's: Sinfonia Antarctica.
OMG😂😂😂😂
呵呵
I just don't see the purpose for it.
Fair enough. My justification has been that, for nearly 400 years, the truly great organs have had 32' stops allowing a range down to C1. I want to bring that capability to the orchestra and believe that expanding the bassoon family is the best way to do that. Regardless of your skepticism, thanks for following the project. I hope I can change your mind once the prototype is finished!
Richard Bobo Let's say that the Subcontra Bassoon is created, allowing for the extension down to C1. How big of an impact would that have in the orchestra? Does the organ really need to be relieved of it's lower range? Would the low range even produce a sound vibrant enough to be heard clearly? Would the amount of air it takes to fill up the instrument truly be enough to last a phrase? I would also like to ask about the Subcontrabass Clarinet. I believe only one was created and it wasn't worth the time it took to create it. Can you possibly see your Subcontra Bassoon following the same path? I apologize for the amount of questions I have given you. I am curious and I would love to hear your response.
I apologize for the mistake, I should have said C0.
Richard Bobo No worries, I knew what you ment.
(Sorry in advance for the long post) 1) The organ doesn't need to be relieved on its lower range, just like the oboe isn't rendered obsolete by the violin. Both can exist at the same. However, the subcontra will be portable and musically flexible in ways the organ is not, in addition to being less expensive. 2) When it comes to the octocontraalto and octocontrabass clarinets, my opinion for why they weren't successful is the harmonic structure of the clarinet timbre. When a clarinet plays an Eb3, the harmonics that are most apparent are Eb3, Bb4, G5, Db6, etc: the odd harmonics. This isn't a problem for Eb3, since the Eb3 harmonic is easily and near-universally audible. When you get to Eb0, however, clarinet acoustics are such that there is no easily and universally audible Eb anywhere in the spectrum. (Most people can hear lower than 20Hz, but it gets progressively more difficult the lower you go). When the subcontrabassoon plays Eb0, however, it will have a full harmonic spectrum including Eb1, Eb2, Eb3, etc. It is my opinion that this will make it a more successful subcontrabass woodwind than the "octos". 3) As for the potential usefulness of the lowest notes, do a RUclips search for "subcontrabassoon sound tests'. You should find some videos I made playing around with a digitally pitched-down contrabassoon to explore where the subcontrabassoon may be useful and where it probably won't. (Make sure you listen to these videos with a subwoofer, otherwise you won't get the full effect.) 4) As for projection with a full orchestra, I believe that (just like the contrabassoon) the subcontrabassoon will be most effective in smaller combinations, rather than full tuttis. Even the tuba cannot compete against a full orchestral tutti in the lowest part of its range. 5) For air requirements, one of the advantages of the bassoon family (versus the saxophone and flute families) is the relatively more efficient air requirements. And because of the narrowly tapered bore, the subcontrabassoon will actually have an air column volume roughly at the same scale as some of the largest saxophones or the contrabass tuba. So yes, breathing will be a challenge, but I believe it will be one that can be overcome. 6) Finally, I look at the project more like a science project, rather than a fully commercial endeavor. As such, I am absolutely willing to concede the possibility that the instrument will not be a success. (That's why I am not taking preorders or establishing a waitlist yet.) But, that would not make the project a failure. Even if the only thing we learn from the project is that a subcontrabassoon is not musically effective, we will have learned something we did not know before. In short, when it comes to new things, skepticism is healthy. Skepticism keeps us from eating unfamiliar mushrooms from the woods. But, for every delicious and edible mushroom, someone had to be the first one to try it.