Why I think AMDs Ryzen AI Max+ Pro 395 might "disappoint"...
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- We're all looking forward to AMDs new "Super" APU: "STRIX HALO"!
But there might be one big catch....
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/ @hubwood
Agreed entirely. Those high end iGPUs were never cheap. Besides, what about memory bandwidth? There is a reason dGPUs have their own memory - because the bandwifth is several times faster than of standard RAM.
Thanks for the news!
yea! i am not a chip engineer but i also believe the performance of igpus are reaching its max potential since they do not have their own dedicated vram.
bandwidth of a laptop 4070 is 256gb/s. If strix halo uses 8000mt/s ram,then the bandwidth is also 256gb/s.Not only that, but strix halo could have up to 128 gb of ram and the gpu having half of that (for arguments sake) would be 64 gb.now how fast would 64gb need to be to have the same throughput as 8gb of gddr6x (21gb/s x 8gb)?It would be 2625mt/s. Now gddr7 currently has 32gb/s and strix would need 4000mt/s to match that. The point is that ram speed really doesnt matter if you can get loads of and schedule it properly,what matters is the bus width as that determines the amount of vram modules(not ram) and the total bandwidth.
@@AhmadAli-kv2ho What do you mean if? you don't know its bandwidth? Also, what kind of RAM is so fast? I agree about memory bus though. But doesn't wide memory bus also consume power?
@TabalugaDragon the person replied to me said infinitie speed so howd it fill up? Also a larger memory bus doesnt take more power cos its a physical thing. If a 2gb buffer goes through a 128 bit bus and 256 bit bus ,both at the same speed,which is faster? Itd be the 256 bit bus cos more bits of info can go thru at once
@@jaya001usthey don’t need dedicated Ram as Apple’s chips are also iGPUs and compete with the high end ones from Nvidia and AMD. All that they need is a “3D” cache (next step) and a lot ram bandwidth (quad channel) as Apple’s. You can have 32 GB dual channel or 32 GB quad channel with twice the bandwidth. It’s all about design and costs.
The decision is made by need: Intel is closing the iGPU and dGPU gap, AMD still has the edge but it’s dangerously close, so it’s better AMD steps up. I think AMD never thought Intel would be so near in 2024.
Thats why we need Intel to be in the gpu market to keep AMD in check
There have been unrealistic expectations of this product since it was first announced.
So many people thought they were going to get a PC handheld (nearly) as powerful as a PS5 running at 20w-30w for $600 😂 when it was clearly shown that this was a 100w+ APU.
My hope is that the memory bandwidth helps e.g. the 16CU version outperform / gain efficiency on the 890M APUs, and that would extend upwards
But yes it would need to be at minimum above the 4070's efficiency curve, ideally way higher (should be more significantly more efficient than 100W 4070 + ~25W CPU)
My / the idea is that you are paying for efficiency, not performance (so you can get > 4070 in 13" tablet e.g.)
And you aren't limited to 8GB VRAM GPUs from Nvidia in portable laptops ('23 Zephyrus G14 with 4080/90 discontinued 🥲)
PC hardware is expensive if you want performance. One thing to consider is Valve is likely to enter the Mini PC market with a Steam OS powered box. It will most likely be powered by something similar to this 40 cu chip. Since they subsidize their hardware it will help to keep prices lower. They will likely offer something in the ballpark of PS5 performance for around $600-700. That will also help to grow the market and demand for these chips which will also help prices. There is a reason AMD is finally looking to offer console style APUs in the PC space now. They see the consolized Mini PC and the Handheld PC as big areas for growth with Steam OS and the upcoming Xbox OS.
01:48 No, they are gonna cost much more. The Strix Point cpus already cost that. Halo is meant for workstation laptops and I bet that is $2000 USD for the lower end model.
If we want more accessible systems we need to wait for 4-5 months for the cut-down models. You know, the ones with disabled faulty cores and that's if vendors decide to use them.
Yeah maybe. Probably.
Highest end 395 will be very expensive. 385 appears to be the sweet spot, but again, I think even these will start at around $2000 for 32GB ram models and 1TB. Nothing is cheap anymore. Maybe 370/375 drops to $1200 which makes it far more viable, but really can't see a 256bit bus iGPU 395 costing less than $2000.
@@SmartphoneWars those are prices at release, soon they get lower
@@SmartphoneWars those are prices at release, soon they get lower
If a Strix Halo is going to be worth it or not it depends of course on its price, but also what Nvidia has coming next with the 5000 series. If the "5060" is going to obliterate the 4060 and it is at a good price and the top of the line Strix Halo is around the 4060 with crazy high price, it's going to tank.
If, however, say a mini PC with the top Strix Halo comes at a price like those with the 370AI-TAXI-Whateverthenameis, then I can see the attraction even at that 1000-1100 price range.
Having said that, I would be more interested for a desktop implementation at that price as one could build now a good desktop PC and take away sales from Nvidia, which in turn could be forced to lower their prices.
Regarding power consumption, imagine having a desktop PC with a good CPU and a RTX 4060 level of GPU and all that for lower power consumption than a RTX 4060 on its own. Now that's good!
I mean yeah, it COULD also completely change they price of many CPUs AND GPUs if it isn't THAT expensive.
But I cant imagine that happening for two reasons:
1. If it would be relatively cheap, it would be sold out instantly. And AMD probably can't produce enough of these chips, especially in the beginning.
2. That would then again lead to high prices on the used market and due to scalpers.
@@Hubwood You are not wrong, but since I have mostly lost my faith in humanity, I believe if this happens it will be on purpose. Ok I am tired too.
😂👍
IMO, this is 100% AMD's response to Apple's M series Max chips, and I'm surprised not many people have brought this up, especially given the naming similarity. With this in mind, they could be targeting a completely different market with this than we expect (mobile workstations instead of gaming; think ThinkPad P series), so pricing might not be as big an issue. If this is the case, their biggest hurdles IMO will be power efficiency under lighter loads / when idle and software support in common workstation applications.
That is possible, yes ;)
I eagerly await strix halo in a 16" laptop with LPCAMM2 and a 120w+ cooling package, 100wh battery, mini-led 1000+nits display, a numpad,and a vent fan on the right to keep my mouse hand warm..
The real reason that might price these even higher is how the memory size might be very high *and* may be used by the GPU side: ie very enticing for AI model footprint. I think this is why Workstations are the first big release.
as long as that 128 gb variant is not unreasonably expensive as m4 max , I'm fine
I suspect amd and intel are using chatgpt to name their new processors.
😂 I actually think chat GPT would do a better job
Without Stix Halo, AMD has almost no chance to boost their laptop CPU and GPU sales. The laptop market is still dominated by Intel and NVIDIA, and neither of them wants AMD to survive in this space. Unless you’re talking about DIY desktops, you rarely see high-end laptops with AMD CPUs and NVIDIA GPUs.
I look forward to getting these mini pcs for relatively cheap on ebay in like 5 years or so
😂 why not start looking for a cheap auction for an RTX 4060 Laptop right now and have it years earlier 😜
im currently running a i7-7700HQ and a 1050ti, i just want Strix Halo for naming reasons. and i love iGPUS, i have owned handful of amds Desktop APUS going back to A series
Would be amazing to replace my aging x99’dual Xeon system with a rtx 3050 8gb with a amd apu system that I could upgrade the gpu later on like a mini desktop. I know it’s mobile mainly but low power high performance
Without a store front like Steam to recoup the cost, laptops, handhelds and mini-pcs will be at a premium.
Maybe if Valve launches a Steam Machine with this APU, Windows and non-Arch users can benefit from it like from the Deck.
That would be a cool usecase indeed 😍
Can't wait for the Max+ Pro S model
Agreed, 40CU iGPU is found to very expensive, we already have HX 370 with 890m and 16CU which are pretty expensive. In handheld form 20 or 24 CU is more reasonable considering the TDP.
I think if it performs around a 4060 desktop, which it does seem to, it's good if priced well. Hopefully it is. And it's a lead toward better integrated and power solutions for more power constraint systems
Well, I see two scenarios:If the price is below Mac, 25% or 30%. People will buy them why Windows users have been waiting for this CPU all our lives giving it good performance and long and energy efficiency.And if it reaches the price of the MAC then people will think:Well then they weren't that expensive... and the first one after 40 years using Windows I'll radically change the ecosystem..
Because paying the same price and on top of that I have more privacy.. And if there are more people who think the same as me, that will do a lot of damage both Android and Windows...
It didn't disappoint.
We don't know the price yet. I was simply refering to price as you might have heard in m video ;)
@Hubwood It's estimated to be around $2000 which is a fair price considering the efficiency and performance gains also that it's a direct competitor to M4 Pro.
@@akshat8586 The CPU will be great, sure, but considering gaming performance you're still better of with a dedicated GPU / CPU Combo for that money.
@@Hubwood That's true ofcourse but if the use case is productivity and running AI Models locally then it's a very solid choice. It can actually beat the RTX 4090 in many AI Tasks because it simply has more VRAM which is one of the main requirements to run AI Models.
@@akshat8586 yepp, true. I just wanted to lower expectations for people that think it will be a cheap alternative for gaming.
I think strix point & lunar lake are already quite expensive in Europe. But you even if strix halo was affordable, I still require a laptop without a numpad that looks corporate. Tough....
I do think it will be very expensive like above 2000 dollars for the lower end. I think it will be a chip for mobile and or small workstation. something that will be against the apple m4 max. It will be a very good option for engineer and some content creator. It's like you buying an Epyc cpu for gaming. So I think gamers should not expect it too much. It's not going to be a CPU for everyone. and about the soldered RAM, for mobile workstation, it's not that bad as most of the time company will buy the best one for their engineer so that they would not lose too much time. For the strix point, I was against it but for strix halo, I think it's not that bad of an idea.
Why would it pose challenge to cooling systems? It's not generating more heat, just that cpu and gpu are sitting closer to each other. Maybe it'll be even easier to share heat pipes. Not to say the space saved for extra heat sinks or battery.
It also has the advantage of unified memory. You can do machine learning utilizing eg. 32G of lpddr5 memory, not constrained by 8G-ish vram like 4060.
These are the benefits of new packaging. Don't expect it to be magically much more power efficient than old 16 core -HX and discrete GPU models.
120W for a CPU is no issue in a desktop with a decent cooler, but in a laptop? Or let alone a mini pc? On one chip? That's not an easy task. Sure, if you use lower powered versions... But then we're not seeing the same performance most likely.
Less surface to output the heat, you can put like 6 heat pipes on CPU+GPU but if it is on the same chip you will be limited to 4, maybe (and is a huge maybe) 5
@@Hubwood My point is that we should compare it with old -HX + 4060 laptops, not to 45W APU.
@@Hubwood 120W is maximum not always run at 120W......
The GPUs under 500€ I'd like to compare them to aren't even on the market, and won't even be for another 2 years. All depends on what power consumption range these massive AMD APUs can still function properly, I've never looked up GPU underclocking or undervolting, so my expectation is 0.
But if such a giant APU could work with under 70W, I'd certainly call that a win - if not, I'd probably go for something with 20-24CUs that could be kept in under 50W. But I'd still go for a combination of GPU + AMD APU and therefore my demands are not as high for an APU but still higher than what's currently on the market by AMD. (my assumption here is of course that this could make it's way to the socketed desktop CPUs)
AMD is going on the Apple road with this.
Well, Apple's chips consume less power.
@@PurpleWarlock true. But until now you couldn't have a slim powerfull laptop, without buying someting with dGPU inside where the fan sounds like a plane all the time. Just like with the Zephyrus line-up. Now you can have like a 1.5kg 16" laptop good at anything.
Yeah but 100W TDP need a somewhat capable cooling system as well. That's usually not silent... Especially since it's on one little chip and not divided into two chips...
@@Hubwood we will see. HP already is making a 14" Omnibook and ASUS a new Flow tablet.
@@mariussm7797 yeah I know about the flow and will probably get one of them before release 😊
it,s also not helping intel is lagging behind , corner the market , raise the price , basic economics , more so if they are the only game in town who produces decent sku,s , prices r gonna suck , i,m hoping a desktop variant will also hit the market , a treu succesor to the 8700G , that would be cool
1 cpu die will be better as the igpu will get higher power limit
only advantage I can see is low power consumption in less demanding use as no dgpu to suck all that efficiency when it turns on
Halo is a workstation CPU. It's gonna consume more power than Strix Point.
Probably, but maybe it will be still performing better than any other (windows compatible) APU at 30W 🤷
@@PurpleWarlock yeah relative to other cpu+dgpu workstations I mean
The Max 395 model can be expensive because it is 16 core high-end CPU model.
16 core Ryzen 9 9950X costs $600. No wonder that 16 core Max 395 costs $700-800.
But how about 12 core Max 390 and 8 core Max 385? It has bit less CU (32 CU) but same 256 bit LPDDR.
So I have high hope for 8 core Max 385 APU model at much cheaper price for the mass like $300-400
Strix Halo wird für mich kein Flop sein, wenn das nicht schafft Apex Legends mit lowest settings auf 144 Fps zum laufen zu bringen
Cool topic to discuss! Always good to keep expectations in check... but that name tho it's the equivalent to clickbait adding all the buzz words haha. I wouldn't be surprised if reactions are surprised by the price and immediately compares it to an Apple M4 and flame it. That said, I am excited for the technology behind it!
Nothing to see here ;)
Oopsie, thanks for pointing out the typo 🙈
P.s. my kids just started watching Pingu for the first time and immediately loved it 😬
@@Hubwood Ha, a classic. Beats whatever is on these days
what clickbtait? what was there?
@@TabalugaDragon AMD Ryzen AI Max+ Pro 395
All the key words to maximize marketing/SEO lol
@@NootNoot. oh I thought you meant the video name.
I think these are really truly AI chips and will not be priced in a way that will be attractive to most gamers. The existing champ of LLM and Diffusion AI Cards is the 12gb 3060. The reason being it is very cheap for the amount of vram you get. AI applications are mostly vram starved and most run fairly quickly if you can get them loaded.
I think people who don't need the fastest core but do need a lot of ram will flock to these APUs in droves.
exactly my thoughts....was super hyped because I love mini PC formfactor, but it was announced on CES 2025 that such laptops will start at 2k.....so sadly AMD is being AMD here, milking this amazing chip as hard as they can, why donate it to us regular consumers under $1000 when they can double their revenue by shipping Halo to premium segment laptops.....so sad. maybe after 12 months we can get such APU in mini PCs under $1200 or even on AM5.....but highly unlikely. and Nvidia disappointed again with 8gb 5070m.....mobile gaming is stagnating
You're right that if Strix Halo is priced higher than a CPU+DGPU combo then it will be a commercial failure, so that's why they're not going to price it extremely high. Not saying it'll be cheap but AMD always undercuts the competition by a slim margin.
Right now Strix Point costs much more than Hawk Point because it does much more. The price might go down a little thanks to Intel's competition next month with Arrow Lake mobile. But IIRC, Intel's Arrow Lake mobile has issues with NPU numbers. :/
Strix point costs more than some rtx 4060 laptops and a rtx 4060 laptop is much faster than the Radeon 890m igpu
ohh man realy? if it didn't work well and didn't have potential, they wouldn't go for it, don't be afraid AMDs Strix Halo will be bombastic
I think it's absolutely possible for AMD to make a highly powerful APU at 15w or less. They don't because there's no competition. This is the same mistake companies make again and again.
no competition??? who say no competition there is sign of warning from Intel with their latest chip ARC B580 gpu if they can turn this non powerful gpu to very powerful gpu that a sign they can compete with AMD with less power cosumption and very powerful chips they also can make it happen..it always been Intel is the one who compete with AMD in any APU making...sure now they show to the world with their Intel Arc B580
How many handhelds and consoles came with Arc?
Only msi sell a few and im sure the sales are poor
Intel shud step up their Celestial igpu and make it beating rtx3050/gtx 1080 in raster then AMD might compete again@@kurttis8512
Who doesnt want to game in 1080p with AFMF2 if the igpu is close to rx6600 class💪🤴
The ROG Ally failed to out perform the Steam Deck with multiple times more on paper performance, and you still think we have an energy head room at not 30 watts, but 15 watts???
😭😭😭😭😭😭
@@humanbeing9079 yes the product has to be designed for 15w or less. That's what Valve asked AMD to make and AMD has reached better process nodes and improved designs but focuses on 28w...
@@kurttis8512a sign of warning does not mean competition
At 15 Watts there is only AMD with the Steam Deck and the Switch 2 but is not the same market, close but not the same
If there were another console using ARM+RDNA 3.5 it would be interesting to see
Amd is targeting handhelds and mini pc that cant fit a dedicated gpu.
AMD dedicated GPU sales alone is disappointing to say the least. At this rate, developers will never care about AMD GPU's.
The CEO's plan is to get as many AMD gpu into the hands of consumers so that game developers will take amd gpu optimizations more seriously in the future.
The easiest and fastest way to achieve this is thru a strong integrated GPU for laptops and handhelds.
AMD's aggressive approach on iGPU is a strategy to push mass adoption.
If AMD want game to be optimized more they need to work more closely with developer. Just having more market share is not going to cut it. If anything AMD hardware dominating the major console already give AMD the advantage. This is why kepler hit so hard before. And even after nvidia revise their hardware with maxwell and pascal we still see AMD hardware gain advantage over time (dub as fine wine) as more and more AMD hardware festure being use. But PC is not console. With pc there are driver part that game developer can't access. So when they found out that there are issues they tell hardware maker so they will do something in the drivers. This is where AMD problem is. They were selective about which game they want to fix. Most often AMD only focus on triple A only.
hmm, frustrating to see that high end iGPUs seem to be betraying the reason they became so popular. If they're going to be so expensive, anyone on a budget will just look for a latpop offering with a discrete graphics card.
Also unreasonable that we need to get a master's degree in electronics marketing to figure out the new names for these products. You don't know if you're getting something good unless you spen hours researching what's actually behind the name of a chip. And making the names so long isn't helping...
Yes and yes!
I'm waiting UDNA in AMD APU and SoC
AMD split GCN into RDNA and CDNA following Nvidia's HUGE success splitting their gaming and server architectures.
AMD reunifying their architectures means one thing: they are saving money and engineers by giving up gaming, read between the lines and don't blindly believe what companies say.
@@humanbeing9079exactly. AMD is clearly abandoning the dedicated gpu gaming sector to solely focus on AI, because they have no way to compete against Nvidia in terms of technology. I much prefer their approach for gaming now, focusing on handheld PCs and laptops. That market has been growing immensely and will continue to do so until proper consolidation mainly in the software side. Given also the state of triple A gaming, people are looking towards other alternatives as to what to play. The Switch has been the most successful device in over 20 years, it’s plain console style gaming combined with portability just works, even if the compromise is less power.
Give me integrated gpu with 4050 level in a handheld at an affordable price, and I’ll be happy. 😅 I’ll pay a 1.000 for that.
thermal on laptop is outdated topic, it already prove not problem before 5 years ago on gaming laptop
120W on a CPU for Laptops is not outdated. It' unusual.
A 120W CPU is harder to cool than a 120W GPU. Because its more heat on a tinier spot than on the GPU Chip.
Also: I'm not saying it's not doable but better cooling system = more expensive.
i think AMD Strix Halo is amd ryzen 780m with less power cosumption that all ...less power cosumption longer battery life no thermal isu and have potential as 780m that is reversionary for portable device that can easily put in your pocket or on your wirst as a watch or wristband that is future for gaming device it portable
Nah Strix Halo is the opposite. It's for workstations and powerful laptops in the first place. We will see how it does with low power ...
Let's go Intel!
lol warum ist das video auf deutsch synchronisiert, wenn du deutsch kannst
1. Das macht RUclips automatisch und ohne mein Zutun, das musst du leider selber bei deinem RUclips abschalten 😔
2. Hab ich das selbe Video auch in echtem deutsch auf meinem LaptopLiebe Kanal :) kannst es dir dort anschauen 😊
BTW, I forgot to mention. If this BS with the soldered RAM continues, that's for me good enough reason to not bother. But that's just me. Now if you will excuse me, I am going to play one last round on my mid tier gaming laptop from 2014 with my i7-4710HQ.
and your doing that while on battery power alone at 60+fps? Last time I had a gaming laptop with dgpu the max performance I could get while on battery was 30fps and would only last half an hour at most. With the new strix apus I can finally have a laptop that can play modern games at 60+fps for at least 2 hours. That's amazing!!
@@mr.simulator4724 LOL don't expect high battery life while gaming on those iGPUs. It'll be higher than dGPUs, sure, but it still won't be high, and it'll probably be lower than gaming on modern, low end iGPUs.
@@TabalugaDragon actually it's really good, this person tested on gpd pocket 4 which has 45Wh battery and got 1hr 41min ruclips.net/video/FWo4xElfKgE/видео.html but with something like a vivobook s 14 which has 75Wh battery you can naturally get a lot more ruclips.net/video/2-ldxXNDKp4/видео.htmlsi=5GqI7NfYUH64Rthn With dgpus don't even bother try to game on battery, you need to be plugged in and portability goes out the window.
Nah, especially laptops with low power dGPUs like an RTX 4060 at 35W for example can do very well on battery sometimes. I managed to get up to two hours on some laptops with very good FPS (like 70%-90% of the plugged in performance if they have a larger battery) Usuall the BIG dGPUS can't cope with the power once they're on battery ...
@@Hubwood right but with the strix you limit the wattage to 15w for the whole apu without much performance loss and get like 4hrs of gaming. check the vivobook video. I doubt with 35w on dgpu plus another 10 or so watts on the cpu will get you even 1hr of gaming, maybe 30min
😂🤣