I don't think she does it for that reason. I've always seen it as a way to affirm her superiority to him. She treats most creatures of the night this way, but she didn't do it with Angel. Angel had her respect. Spike didn't until the very end.
I admit that when I first watched this series on TV (I was also younger then) I was an Angel fan. Spike, at the time, was definitely an interesting character but I tragically didn’t pay him much attention till I re-binged the series recently. And now, I’m a thoroughly resolute Spike fan. Liam was an asshole even before he was a vampire, and as Angel, saw Buffy as a reward once he fulfilled the Shanshu prophecy. (Of course, at this point, I believe Angel to be more in love with Cordelia than Buffy, if he had to choose.) For Spike, his becoming a Champion was incidental on his personal road to redemption, but most notably, he loved Buffy wholeheartedly, both as a woman and as the Slayer. After rewatching all the episodes, it basically floored me how weirdly different Spike actually was. I think the demon that ended up inhabiting William Pratt’s body was directly influenced by the fact that William’s human essence was an idealistically (innocent) naive virgin when Drusilla Turned him, resulting in the bizarre anomaly of Spike…a demon who somehow retained residual-though deeply buried-traces of a conscience and a sense of humanity. 😁 It’s also difficult to imagine Spike not being under the influence of Angelus since he’s beholden to Drusilla as his sire. As insane as Drusilla is, I think that subconsciously, her precognition already knew how special William/Spike would become in the future, compelling her to Turn him. Drusilla aside, I adamantly believe that Spike’s a far better, more mature partner for Buffy. He’s also not as stupid as circumstances make him out to be with William being a former scholar. (C’mon now!) I also know that some fans disliked the changes in Spike after he earned back his human soul but it will always remain a significant milestone for his character’s evolution. 😊
James Marsters who plays Spike has said that when he was creating the character of Spike. All he really knew about Spike is that he had a girlfriend. So he decided that he loved his girlfriend and ran with it. So Spike was played with his motivation being love. So maybe that was what kept part of his conscience or whatever. Fun fact, Spike was supposed to be killed off in Season 2, but fans liked him enough that the Network made Joss Whedon keep him on the show.
*spoilers In the end though Angel gives up his reward of the Shanshu and any real chance of love with Buffy potentially to do the right thing and take down the circle of the black thorn, which says a lot about how his character grows and does a lot to make me like him way more. Although of course he's joined by Spike who is willing to sacrifice himself a second time, this time not even out of his love for Buffy but just because he knows it's right so in the end they're on the same level
spike's character changes and getting his soul back was *essential* to his redemption. honestly i could not be a spuffy shipper if spike hadn't repented and changed how he did after seeing red
The sad part is that William was a beautiful romantic soul which he never really lost but during his time as a vampire, Spike was used to be treated like dirt by his "family" (mostly Angel and Darla) and his "girlfriend" constantly cheating on him with Angel and other demons. Being around Buffy (and the scoobies) he started to learn but then Buffy suffered trauma and took her pain out on him which caused him to revert. As hated as that scene is, when he realizes what he almost did to Buffy in the bathroom I swear thats where he sort of 'Wakes up". then he goes to get his soul so he can love her the right way and not the messed up way he learned from his vampire family. I don't condone what happened in the bathroom but Buffy was just as toxic as Drusilla (and Angel) and it took that incident for both of them to Wake Up.
Yeah, that's the part I feel people ignore too often, because Buffy is the main character and we're supposed to empathize with her in all situations. Plus the whole male-female assault is deeply personal for most people - but Buffy was downright cruel to Spike while they were in a relationship. Doesn't excuse his actions, but she was toxic and never really owned up to it. He didn't deserve it, soul or not.
@@lauraw2526 Both good points well made. The incident is Seeing Red is really the same as Faith sexually assaulting Xander in S3 episode Consequences, where because he spurns her advances she tries to actually murder him. This showed that sexual assault is about power, Faith the female was the strong one 'I see I want I take' and Xander, the male was the the weak innocent. You are right about Buffy using Spike for sexual gratification, and it is very disturbing when she is punching and abusing him on the ground outside the police station in S6, and Spike says 'you always hurt the one you love'. Of course there is no excuse for Spike in Seeing Red, but he was a soulless Vampire with no conscience, where as Faith was very much human with a soul and was aware of her actions. It is interesting that all the focus is on Spike in these situations and not on Faith or Buffy.
It should also be considered that Joss Whedon put that scene in there to make the audience dislike Spike cause he was angry that the fans liked him. Spike was only supposed to be a recurring villain and probably killed off sooner rather than later but fan demand forced him to upgrade the character. He treated the actor of Spike badly too. If not for Whedon's ego that scene would never have happened and Buffy and Spike's relationship would've gone even further on-screen.
Yes, Spike learned bad things from Angelus & and Dru, but let's never forget that he was a soulless demon to start w/. He wudve been murdering & r*ping ppl w/o any help from his 'family' b/c that's what vampires do. Humans are food to them. Let's not forget that Spike literally was named William the Bloody for his violence & then renamed himself Spike, b/c he liked to murder ppl w/ railroad spikes. He did those acts of his own volition. As a vampire, he wudve never been innocent on his own for 2 reasons. 1. He was a violent bloodthirsty demon. 2. Even tho he kept many human traits (ex: smoking cigarettes, eating burgers, going out in the daytime, watching soap operas, falling in pseudo love w/ Dru & Buffy etc etc), he enjoyed the fighting & killing the most. He got off on getting into brawls & hurting ppl. It made him feel powerful b/c in his human life he was powerless & was often laughed at. I do agree that he reverted back to that bad self in 'Seeing Red', but he was ALWAYS going to revert back. A soulless violent demon that preys on humans & sucks every drop of blood from them until they're lifeless, is LITERALLY who he was. That never changed. He was just domesticated & mentally castrated for a while. He got his thirst quenched by killing other demons instead, but it was only a matter of time. He realized that fact in that bathroom, he remembered who he was at his core & decided to do the 1 thing to actually change it: go get his soul back like u said. All of that is why I say, that Spike had the best character arc & development of any character on screen. Ever. And I know that we as fans HATE that episode but it was necessary. The fans had to be reminded of who Buffy was dealing w/. We loved him & wanted Buffy to give in to him, but she refused. The fans needed to be reminded why. We needed a wake up call our damn selves. That way when he fought for his soul & went half crazy, we understood how much of a feat it was & how special Spike rly is. He is literally 1 of 1. A vampire w/ a soul whom fought for his soul. Built different from inception. No other vamp cud compare *sideeye to Angel*.
To me, it started when Faith was in Buffy's body. But I wonder when did Buffy realized that hitting Spike was something he enjoyed, and did she continue to hit Spike knowing that?
She beat him knowing he can't fight back, he was harmless, just annoying. So, plenty of times it was not necessary. So a damn good question is. Why did she do it knowing he actually enjoys it? Well, I guess she did enjoy it too.
@@madampluto3092"worst monsters in the show" is a huuuge exaggeration. esp considering spike not only used to beat up his lackies just for fun but also, like, eat children. not saying buffy shouldn't reflect on that but that doesnt even rank on the top 100 worst things main characters have done in this show.
@@madampluto3092 i mean also he's a vampire and a punch in the face is not like a human getting punched in the face. It's pretty clear she's not using full slayer strength if he's not going flying through a wall, like the "Out. For. A. Walk." scene. I think it's the equivalent of punching someone in the arm. Considering she apparently even knew he LIKED it, ah, that possibly even reframes it into love(/hate?)taps. lol. Also, he can't fight back because he's forced. He happily tries to get her murdered on MANY occasions by other means. I'm 100% a BlondieBear fan, but Buffy pounding on him mercilessly, even after the chip, does not stir up feelings of injustice for me. He was, unequivocally, evil: the actual monster. Buffy using him in the next season IS toxic and she knows this and admits it to him. "I'm sorry, William." She DOES toy with his emotions because she still sees him as evil and less-than-human. That is not an honorable thing for a hero (or anyone) to do, but the circumstances (his evil, her trauma) make it at least understandable, if not justifiable. She does NOT do that after she realizes he has a soul, for which i respect her.
@@madampluto3092spike has killed hundreds of ppl tho 😭 and I’m sure he’s assaulted more. He can take a few hits. Any vampire can. Plus like the other person said, she stops when he gets a soul. She’s not cruel.
Yes! Spikes flirts on Buffy we’re pretty obvious over the years. But Buffy’s were a bit 2 layered. Another one of my fav flirts is on season 4 when Spike is trapped in the tub. And Buffy teases him saying “Look at my poor neck…all exposed”😂😂
I always thought Buffy and Spike’s attraction was mutual ever since School Hard. Even if they weren’t conscious about it, especially on Buffy’s end, their banter always had a flirtatious undertone. She always teased him in ways I never saw her do with other vamps.
I wonder who all ships Angel and Buffy.... I'm a Spuffy fan. And here is why: Angel was 26 when he was turned. So let's forget that he is 240...hes actually been 26 for 240 years. Buffy was only 16 when he started to fall for her. 16...he was 26....thats a big ole NOPE in my book. Also, Angel was an ass as a human and a bigger ass as a vampire. We learn that he was a massive douche canoe to Spike when Dru sired him. Spike adored his mom, was a romantic, and never was violent as a human. I believe that being around Angel caused him to be such a monster. He wanted to be better than Angel. Angel was also CURSED with a soul because of how monstrous he was as a vampire. He only cared about the prophecy and being the champion at the end to become human and to be with Buffy. Thats pretty selfish. He also pursued a 16 year old knowing it couldn't work out. Again selfish. Spike had his selfish moments as a vampire and even his monstrous moments. But he also loved Buffy and wept when she died. He continued to fight alongside the scoobies and protect Dawn when Buffy was dead. Spike also retreated when Buffy's mom showed up at the end of School Hard. And I believe this is because of his connection with his own mom. Even without a chip, he respected Joyce. He also never wanted or tried to destroy the world. He actually fought Angelus alongside Buffy in the end of season 2. Let's fast forward, yes he attempted to rape Buffy, but once Buffy kicked him off, Spike not only regretted it but came to the conclusion that he was not ever gonna be man enough for Buffy. He went to get his soul. He fought for his soul. He was BLESSED with his soul. And then was so ashamed and regretful of his actions towards Buffy that it drove him insane in the basement of the school. He didn't think he deserved the title of champion. Buffy did. He didn't save the world for some selfish reason of becoming human again because he didn't even know about the prophecy. Oh and also Spike didn't pursue a 16 year old Buffy. He was about 25 when he was sired. And Buffy was 22/23 when they became sexual.
I agree 100% with you. I absolutely despise Angel, he was such a horrible person with and without his soul. Spike was a lovely human being and was so deserving of his soul that he fought almost to the death to recieve.
Spike is my favourite but let’s not lie to ourselves - he did NOT get his soul on purpose. He sought to remove the chip - he was surprised by the soul. That said I also do think Spike is special. He’s the only one who seemed capable of love while he was still a vampire - Angel was just vicious. The Judge bears this theory out. Spike felt a sting when the judge touched him; his love for Drucilla kept him a little bit alive, all these years. Angelus felt nothing at all - the judge said there was no humanity in him.
I relate to this on so many levels. See, the thing about abuse is that if you don't take it too personally you come to realise... They do it because they want you to notice them. If someone really doesn't care about you then you woudn't even be worth being challenged at all. Spike probably enjoys it. I know I would.
What if women showed you attention without violence? No disrespect meant. Most men get very little positive attention from women. So any attention is welcome. Work on bettering yourself. Work out. Eat well. Train your mind. Build your finances. There is a saying, "Chase women and you'll have no money. Chase money and you'll have both if you want them." Good luck Brother.
It seems like this was the only way she felt comfortable being physical with him. If she was beating him up she could justify to herself and others. I love how she kisses him in Season 5 after he saves Dawn and then it’s never mentioned again. She wanted Spike from the beginning I believe but didn’t think it was acceptable to be with him. I love how they’re finally more intimate in the last few episodes. Left me wanting more tho 😆
@@lessismore8533avid Fury wrote Crush, and you're kinda right. He indeed hated Spuffy and was a Bangel shipper. BUT, even he switched teams by the end of S7. He even pitched to Joss that AtS will end with Angel winning the Shanshu prophecy but giving it to Spike so he can be human and end up with Buffy. Pretty much all the writers became Spuffy shippers by the end. You can even see that in the comics seasons, where Spuffy gets 99.5% of the love while Bangel only about 0.5%. If it's up to the writers, then the Bangel ship has sunk.
Either your being tongue in cheek or you misinterpreted the scene. She didn’t admit that she’d known all along. She was being sarcastic about sending him some kind of message.
because Angel hid he was a vampire, Spike didn't hide what he was, what he liked, he sincerely said "I'm a love bitch but I'm man enought to admit it" That was Spike. Angel was "we could be friends...." and during years kept hiding things from her, being vampire, Dru, Darla, his son, Cordelia, Faith.... Spike was so open about almost everything that could be overwhelming
Completely agree. Especially since Buffy is supposed to be this 'force for good' and both Angel and Spike claim she inspired them to be better. You can't inspire someone to become a better person when your behaviour to them is worse than theirs is to you. Spike loved Buffy and she treated him with total disrespect; in the real world that would never inspire someone to 'be better' or feel supported that 'you believed in them.' Buffy's opinion of Spike by Season 7 is frankly meaningless; she had forfeited any right to be a 'good influence' on him after treating him so cruelly for literally no reason and never apologising. Spike was chipped and not a threat; good people do not hurt others because 'they deserve it; they're evil', but only in self defense/for the greater good however your ethical system defines it. It's NEVER right to hurt people who can't defend themselves no matter how 'bad' they are; in fact, treating a bad person 'better than they deserve' can sometimes be the only way to get them to turn their life around. Buffy should have learned from her experience with Faith to treat Spike with more kindness and less judgement if the writers wanted to make their relationship and Spike changing FOR her believable.
@@rowenamckinley1079 The definition of good is being destined to help, not harm. In a complex world, it is often necessary to choose a lesser evil for the greater good. Incapacitaing, imprisoning, or even killing a criminal FOR THE SAKE OF PROTECTING OTHERS may well be the right thing to do in many instances. My problem with Buffy was that her end goal was to hurt Spike or anyone she considered 'evil', not help others. That was just a byproduct that didn't even seem to interest her much: she certainly never derived contentment from knowing her role as the Slayer helped people. She wanted to destroy evil rather than promote goodness, but the only reason FOR destroying evil is to make way for goodness. Spike was no longer in her way or hindering the cause of good once he was chipped, so she had no business hurting him rather than eliminating real threats - not to 'hurt' those threats, but to aid the people threatened. Hurting Spike at this point was just revengeful, childish and petty. It helped no one and was not in any way 'good' behaviour from Buffy.
@@cmm5542 Buffy was the vampire slayer. She was quite literally born to kill vampires. That was her goal. So obviously hurting them didn't bother her when her instinct is to kill them. Spike followed her around and tried to kill her repeatedly. He tried to kill her friends. He tried to assault her. He has great character growth and becomes a good ally to her in the end, but that doesn't absolve him of all he did. Buffy was not and had never been a pacifist and your opinion of good is not the definition. I'm not about to pretend that a vampire slayer who wants to hurt vampires is a character flaw.
@@rowenamckinley1079 WANTING to hurt is always a character flaw. I'm not in the least in favour of pacifism. But the motto is: 'Not to promote war, but to preserve peace.' The only thing that makes it okay for Buffy to kill vampires while it's not okay for them to kill humans, is if the reason vampires kill is because they want to hurt people, and the reason Buffy kills is because she wants to save people. But it was never confirmed that Buffy really wanted to save people: she just had to be the Slayer and did it without much interest in those she saved, so how is her killing any more moral than the vampires' killing? This point was raised more than once in the show - 'Being the Slayer is turning me to stone' - but never fully resolved in Buffy's favour, which I felt was unfair to the character. I'm not saying it should have bothered Buffy to hurt vampires. I'm saying she should not have taken such pleasure in it as to continue hurting ANYONE when it served no practical or saving purpose. That's just twisted and should only be the behaviour of villains, not heroes no matter how flawed. If you no longer prioritize good over evil, then you can't be a hero. Being flawed just means the hero makes mistakes and does the wrong thing sometimes: LIKING doing the wrong thing, like hurting people for no reason, makes you a villain. They kept switching Buffy back and forth from hero to villain character, and even though SMG played both roles well, it was a senseless and directionless character arc in my opinion.
ok, victim blaming. That's how she threatens him fir info. As soon as he escalates *his* obsession with her and she realizes his feelings, she has the Wiccans put a block on the door, to 'uninvite him." Bc of his toxic history and being a vamp, it's he that's confused her anger and distain w love
I don't think this is victim blaming. They had a clear sexual relationship after this. This clip isn't saying that she is responsible for the rape attempt. Neither is their past sexual relationship, but that's not the point of the clip either. It's just showing that Buffy flirted with Spike.
@@LadyEowyn they had a sexual relationship bc she was back from the dead, despondent, disinterested in life, broken up with, and just wanting to feell something, She knew he was into her, and it was a distraction. Both one of the writers and the written of the official guide commented on not liking the connotation of the scene. She only realized in that moment it was probably a turn on for him. he didnt see that until her Mom said that. Didnt say anything about the rape scene. If she actually was aware of her flirting, as you say, she wouldm't have blocked him from the house, and be disgusted at him thinking they were on a date when he took her to watch for Riley.
@@MyselftheElf she was absolutely aware of flirting… she’s always been aware of his feelings for her and she used him right until the end. She’s not innocent
@@MyselftheElf it’s true that their sleeping together in Season 6 wasn’t authentic because they both had issues: Buffy was depressed and Spike hadn’t gotten his soul back yet. I don’t understand why the writers made so many of those scenes with them 2 when they know it wouldn’t work anyway. I find that offensive because I ship these 2. But in season 7 things finally started to HEAL finally. I don’t agree with the writers making Spike a stalker in season 5. They should’ve wrote him different. I liked it better when he just had a regular crush (aka Fool for Love episode). Not some creepy obsession. There are certain eps I’ll never re watch. And the rape episode was unnecessary. I get they were trying to give Spike motivation to get his soul back. But they should’ve thought of something else
The truth is, it's because James and Sarah have way more chemistry together onscreen than David and Sarah did. It's not even really about the characters so much as it is about the actors.
@@cirrustate8674 again, I still can't see it. Saying that SMG and James have good chemistry doesn't mean much because he had great chemistry with everyone he has a scene with. Frankly, Sarah showed more emotions when doing scenes with David than when she did with James. This one scene in the Angel cross over, he had to try and calm her down when she cried and she really lit up when Angel returned in season 7. I can see why she liked Bangel more than Spuffy because Angel had a soul while most of series Spike didn't. I would have supported the ship more if they had started their relationship when he had a soul. The show made a mistake for Buffy to have hooked up with him when he didn't have one, it was out of character.
@@cirrustate8674 It's true. And honestly Spike is a more compelling character and he's more complex than Angel. I don't love season 7 but the best thing about it is all of the Spike characterization. Not to mention we love a redemption arc.
@@Ergoperidot redemption, yes. We watch him change from basic evil, to minor villain, to punch line, to possibilities, to destroyed-man-with-soul, to sidekick of hero (Angel). Change toward good is compelling.
![Chlöe - Shake (Feat. Jeremih) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aDs_1ufpfv8/mqdefault.jpg)
I never thought about the fact that she knew hitting him was a turn on to him but did it anyway, until now...
Yea, their sexcapades were always pretty violent looking back
It took me awhile to realize he liked it rough too. .. weird
@@mcnoneya Whats weird about spike liking it rough?
@@emptyblank099a idk I just have a theory that those who like it rough have some inner turmoil that they haven’t dealt with.
@@mcnoneya well to be fair, his own mum wanted to rail him, and he had to stake her. When he was already a vamp.
his little "ow" every time he gets hit is so funny to me
omg snap! same pfp and a buffy fan too! :)
It’s adorable 😝
@@almendras4830 oh nice!
@@amieperkins4933 Would you find it funny if he punched her? Why is violence to men amusing but violence to women disgusting?
@@Nepthu woah there buddy, Spike can take a hit, so can Buffy.
Literally some of their first lines in Season 2:
"Do we really need the weapons for this?"
"I like them. They make me feel manly."
And then Joyce hit him with an axe...which is why Spike likes her so much, too.
@@donsample1002 😂😂😂
@@lessismore8533 *"W O M E N!!!"* 💥👱🏼♂🪓🧑🏼🏫
@@RMFeminine4TheWin
_"WHAT. the bleedin 'ell is _*_WRONG_*_ with you BLOODY WOMEN!?!??!?"_
my favorite line, hands down.
I always thought she didn't realize he was enjoying it until this moment, not that she was doing it intentionally.
It's a joke...
"look at my poor neck. All bare and tender and exposed. All that blood just pumping away." ! yeah obviously she didn't know what she was doing!
@@antoniolamounier not to a masochist
I don't think she does it for that reason. I've always seen it as a way to affirm her superiority to him. She treats most creatures of the night this way, but she didn't do it with Angel. Angel had her respect. Spike didn't until the very end.
Literally Joyce says unintentionally so yes she didn’t realize till this moment just like she just now realized he liked her
The amount of times Spike said "Ow!" I'm done. 😄
I admit that when I first watched this series on TV (I was also younger then) I was an Angel fan. Spike, at the time, was definitely an interesting character but I tragically didn’t pay him much attention till I re-binged the series recently. And now, I’m a thoroughly resolute Spike fan.
Liam was an asshole even before he was a vampire, and as Angel, saw Buffy as a reward once he fulfilled the Shanshu prophecy. (Of course, at this point, I believe Angel to be more in love with Cordelia than Buffy, if he had to choose.) For Spike, his becoming a Champion was incidental on his personal road to redemption, but most notably, he loved Buffy wholeheartedly, both as a woman and as the Slayer.
After rewatching all the episodes, it basically floored me how weirdly different Spike actually was. I think the demon that ended up inhabiting William Pratt’s body was directly influenced by the fact that William’s human essence was an idealistically (innocent) naive virgin when Drusilla Turned him, resulting in the bizarre anomaly of Spike…a demon who somehow retained residual-though deeply buried-traces of a conscience and a sense of humanity. 😁
It’s also difficult to imagine Spike not being under the influence of Angelus since he’s beholden to Drusilla as his sire. As insane as Drusilla is, I think that subconsciously, her precognition already knew how special William/Spike would become in the future, compelling her to Turn him.
Drusilla aside, I adamantly believe that Spike’s a far better, more mature partner for Buffy. He’s also not as stupid as circumstances make him out to be with William being a former scholar. (C’mon now!) I also know that some fans disliked the changes in Spike after he earned back his human soul but it will always remain a significant milestone for his character’s evolution. 😊
I never could get in to Angel. I was a hardcore Buffy fan, though
That’s how I was with Stephen and Damon on The Vampire Diaries
James Marsters who plays Spike has said that when he was creating the character of Spike. All he really knew about Spike is that he had a girlfriend. So he decided that he loved his girlfriend and ran with it. So Spike was played with his motivation being love. So maybe that was what kept part of his conscience or whatever.
Fun fact, Spike was supposed to be killed off in Season 2, but fans liked him enough that the Network made Joss Whedon keep him on the show.
*spoilers
In the end though Angel gives up his reward of the Shanshu and any real chance of love with Buffy potentially to do the right thing and take down the circle of the black thorn, which says a lot about how his character grows and does a lot to make me like him way more. Although of course he's joined by Spike who is willing to sacrifice himself a second time, this time not even out of his love for Buffy but just because he knows it's right so in the end they're on the same level
spike's character changes and getting his soul back was *essential* to his redemption. honestly i could not be a spuffy shipper if spike hadn't repented and changed how he did after seeing red
The sad part is that William was a beautiful romantic soul which he never really lost but during his time as a vampire, Spike was used to be treated like dirt by his "family" (mostly Angel and Darla) and his "girlfriend" constantly cheating on him with Angel and other demons. Being around Buffy (and the scoobies) he started to learn but then Buffy suffered trauma and took her pain out on him which caused him to revert. As hated as that scene is, when he realizes what he almost did to Buffy in the bathroom I swear thats where he sort of 'Wakes up". then he goes to get his soul so he can love her the right way and not the messed up way he learned from his vampire family. I don't condone what happened in the bathroom but Buffy was just as toxic as Drusilla (and Angel) and it took that incident for both of them to Wake Up.
Yeah, that's the part I feel people ignore too often, because Buffy is the main character and we're supposed to empathize with her in all situations. Plus the whole male-female assault is deeply personal for most people - but Buffy was downright cruel to Spike while they were in a relationship. Doesn't excuse his actions, but she was toxic and never really owned up to it. He didn't deserve it, soul or not.
@@lauraw2526 Both good points well made. The incident is Seeing Red is really the same as Faith sexually assaulting Xander in S3 episode Consequences, where because he spurns her advances she tries to actually murder him. This showed that sexual assault is about power, Faith the female was the strong one 'I see I want I take' and Xander, the male was the the weak innocent. You are right about Buffy using Spike for sexual gratification, and it is very disturbing when she is punching and abusing him on the ground outside the police station in S6, and Spike says 'you always hurt the one you love'. Of course there is no excuse for Spike in Seeing Red, but he was a soulless Vampire with no conscience, where as Faith was very much human with a soul and was aware of her actions. It is interesting that all the focus is on Spike in these situations and not on Faith or Buffy.
It should also be considered that Joss Whedon put that scene in there to make the audience dislike Spike cause he was angry that the fans liked him. Spike was only supposed to be a recurring villain and probably killed off sooner rather than later but fan demand forced him to upgrade the character. He treated the actor of Spike badly too. If not for Whedon's ego that scene would never have happened and Buffy and Spike's relationship would've gone even further on-screen.
@@user-cx1sx9wp5rFinally someone said it.
Yes, Spike learned bad things from Angelus & and Dru, but let's never forget that he was a soulless demon to start w/. He wudve been murdering & r*ping ppl w/o any help from his 'family' b/c that's what vampires do. Humans are food to them. Let's not forget that Spike literally was named William the Bloody for his violence & then renamed himself Spike, b/c he liked to murder ppl w/ railroad spikes. He did those acts of his own volition. As a vampire, he wudve never been innocent on his own for 2 reasons. 1. He was a violent bloodthirsty demon. 2. Even tho he kept many human traits (ex: smoking cigarettes, eating burgers, going out in the daytime, watching soap operas, falling in pseudo love w/ Dru & Buffy etc etc), he enjoyed the fighting & killing the most. He got off on getting into brawls & hurting ppl. It made him feel powerful b/c in his human life he was powerless & was often laughed at.
I do agree that he reverted back to that bad self in 'Seeing Red', but he was ALWAYS going to revert back. A soulless violent demon that preys on humans & sucks every drop of blood from them until they're lifeless, is LITERALLY who he was. That never changed. He was just domesticated & mentally castrated for a while. He got his thirst quenched by killing other demons instead, but it was only a matter of time. He realized that fact in that bathroom, he remembered who he was at his core & decided to do the 1 thing to actually change it: go get his soul back like u said.
All of that is why I say, that Spike had the best character arc & development of any character on screen. Ever.
And I know that we as fans HATE that episode but it was necessary. The fans had to be reminded of who Buffy was dealing w/. We loved him & wanted Buffy to give in to him, but she refused. The fans needed to be reminded why. We needed a wake up call our damn selves. That way when he fought for his soul & went half crazy, we understood how much of a feat it was & how special Spike rly is. He is literally 1 of 1. A vampire w/ a soul whom fought for his soul. Built different from inception. No other vamp cud compare *sideeye to Angel*.
“I do beat him up alot. For Spike that’s like third base”
To me, it started when Faith was in Buffy's body. But I wonder when did Buffy realized that hitting Spike was something he enjoyed, and did she continue to hit Spike knowing that?
Lol, probably a little of both?
YEAH. CALL HER OUT
as someone who was in love with spike as a child... yeah makes sense
Haha I was like 12 when Buffy ended! Biggest crush on Spike. He’s gorgeous
Greatest show there ever was, and ever will be no matter what you think about Whedon!
She beat him knowing he can't fight back, he was harmless, just annoying. So, plenty of times it was not necessary. So a damn good question is. Why did she do it knowing he actually enjoys it? Well, I guess she did enjoy it too.
To me that only proves that she is one of the worst monsters in the show. Only someone really sick and evil beats someone who can't fight back.
@@madampluto3092"worst monsters in the show" is a huuuge exaggeration. esp considering spike not only used to beat up his lackies just for fun but also, like, eat children. not saying buffy shouldn't reflect on that but that doesnt even rank on the top 100 worst things main characters have done in this show.
@@madampluto3092 i mean also he's a vampire and a punch in the face is not like a human getting punched in the face. It's pretty clear she's not using full slayer strength if he's not going flying through a wall, like the "Out. For. A. Walk." scene.
I think it's the equivalent of punching someone in the arm. Considering she apparently even knew he LIKED it, ah, that possibly even reframes it into love(/hate?)taps. lol.
Also, he can't fight back because he's forced. He happily tries to get her murdered on MANY occasions by other means.
I'm 100% a BlondieBear fan, but Buffy pounding on him mercilessly, even after the chip, does not stir up feelings of injustice for me.
He was, unequivocally, evil: the actual monster.
Buffy using him in the next season IS toxic and she knows this and admits it to him. "I'm sorry, William." She DOES toy with his emotions because she still sees him as evil and less-than-human. That is not an honorable thing for a hero (or anyone) to do, but the circumstances (his evil, her trauma) make it at least understandable, if not justifiable.
She does NOT do that after she realizes he has a soul, for which i respect her.
@@JhadeSagrav I bet you want to be abused by someone. Sicko.
@@madampluto3092spike has killed hundreds of ppl tho 😭 and I’m sure he’s assaulted more. He can take a few hits. Any vampire can. Plus like the other person said, she stops when he gets a soul. She’s not cruel.
Spuffy! Pardon me while I daydream. If a smile comes on my face, don't worry, I'm okay.
Yes! Spikes flirts on Buffy we’re pretty obvious over the years. But Buffy’s were a bit 2 layered. Another one of my fav flirts is on season 4 when Spike is trapped in the tub. And Buffy teases him saying “Look at my poor neck…all exposed”😂😂
And pumping away lol omg beat moment ever
I always thought Buffy and Spike’s attraction was mutual ever since School Hard. Even if they weren’t conscious about it, especially on Buffy’s end, their banter always had a flirtatious undertone. She always teased him in ways I never saw her do with other vamps.
@@Pancake3225 She did say she'd rather fight with him, in that s2 episode in the church, and Spike said he preferred Buffy to Kendra
I wonder who all ships Angel and Buffy....
I'm a Spuffy fan. And here is why:
Angel was 26 when he was turned. So let's forget that he is 240...hes actually been 26 for 240 years. Buffy was only 16 when he started to fall for her. 16...he was 26....thats a big ole NOPE in my book.
Also, Angel was an ass as a human and a bigger ass as a vampire. We learn that he was a massive douche canoe to Spike when Dru sired him. Spike adored his mom, was a romantic, and never was violent as a human. I believe that being around Angel caused him to be such a monster. He wanted to be better than Angel.
Angel was also CURSED with a soul because of how monstrous he was as a vampire. He only cared about the prophecy and being the champion at the end to become human and to be with Buffy. Thats pretty selfish. He also pursued a 16 year old knowing it couldn't work out. Again selfish.
Spike had his selfish moments as a vampire and even his monstrous moments. But he also loved Buffy and wept when she died. He continued to fight alongside the scoobies and protect Dawn when Buffy was dead. Spike also retreated when Buffy's mom showed up at the end of School Hard. And I believe this is because of his connection with his own mom. Even without a chip, he respected Joyce. He also never wanted or tried to destroy the world. He actually fought Angelus alongside Buffy in the end of season 2. Let's fast forward, yes he attempted to rape Buffy, but once Buffy kicked him off, Spike not only regretted it but came to the conclusion that he was not ever gonna be man enough for Buffy. He went to get his soul. He fought for his soul. He was BLESSED with his soul. And then was so ashamed and regretful of his actions towards Buffy that it drove him insane in the basement of the school. He didn't think he deserved the title of champion. Buffy did. He didn't save the world for some selfish reason of becoming human again because he didn't even know about the prophecy.
Oh and also Spike didn't pursue a 16 year old Buffy. He was about 25 when he was sired. And Buffy was 22/23 when they became sexual.
Angel is my boy
Not at the end though Angel realized all of that crap didn't matter, he knew that all there was was the fight between good and evil
You're a brainlet. Spike AND Angel are old as hell compared to Buffy, idiot. They're vampires. Did you forget that crucial note?
I agree 100% with you. I absolutely despise Angel, he was such a horrible person with and without his soul. Spike was a lovely human being and was so deserving of his soul that he fought almost to the death to recieve.
Spike is my favourite but let’s not lie to ourselves - he did NOT get his soul on purpose. He sought to remove the chip - he was surprised by the soul. That said I also do think Spike is special. He’s the only one who seemed capable of love while he was still a vampire - Angel was just vicious. The Judge bears this theory out. Spike felt a sting when the judge touched him; his love for Drucilla kept him a little bit alive, all these years.
Angelus felt nothing at all - the judge said there was no humanity in him.
Spike is a bottom
He's a Switch.
😂😂😂
Lmaooo
With Buffy and Dru, yes. Harmony? Not so much...
Not how it looked
no one:
spike: OW
Idk why but the way she pushed him and he said "Hey" was hilarious. 😂
Well...she was hitting (on) him lol
She DID kind of lead him on a little. Her physically hurting him didn't upset him, it aroused him.
So essentially the once high school cheerleader falls for the nerd with a heart of gold I can get behind that
I relate to this on so many levels. See, the thing about abuse is that if you don't take it too personally you come to realise... They do it because they want you to notice them.
If someone really doesn't care about you then you woudn't even be worth being challenged at all. Spike probably enjoys it. I know I would.
What if women showed you attention without violence? No disrespect meant. Most men get very little positive attention from women. So any attention is welcome. Work on bettering yourself. Work out. Eat well. Train your mind. Build your finances. There is a saying, "Chase women and you'll have no money. Chase money and you'll have both if you want them." Good luck Brother.
the fact she knew he liked it and still did it 😭
I don’t agree with him but like Joyce says UNINTENTIONALLY
With a slap on a cheek in "out of my mind" you can actually see that it made him hot n bothered.
It seems like this was the only way she felt comfortable being physical with him. If she was beating him up she could justify to herself and others. I love how she kisses him in Season 5 after he saves Dawn and then it’s never mentioned again. She wanted Spike from the beginning I believe but didn’t think it was acceptable to be with him. I love how they’re finally more intimate in the last few episodes. Left me wanting more tho 😆
It's called piggy tail pulling.
well he is a vampire and she's not wrong
Spuffy>
Yes
"Unintential" lol. So funny.
Imagine if they flipped it and Buffy got off on being slapped around? Oh wait...
doesn’t she, though? i thought this was heavily alluded to several times, even flat out acknowledged it
so this was totally joss hating on spike, right?
Ikr or wheldon. Whoever wasn’t a shipper was obviously a biased writer. Especially in the “Crush Episode “
Nope. Joss never hated Spike, he resented James during S2 for ruining his plans. He's become a Spuffy shipper since.
@@lessismore8533avid Fury wrote Crush, and you're kinda right. He indeed hated Spuffy and was a Bangel shipper. BUT, even he switched teams by the end of S7. He even pitched to Joss that AtS will end with Angel winning the Shanshu prophecy but giving it to Spike so he can be human and end up with Buffy.
Pretty much all the writers became Spuffy shippers by the end. You can even see that in the comics seasons, where Spuffy gets 99.5% of the love while Bangel only about 0.5%. If it's up to the writers, then the Bangel ship has sunk.
The fact that I kinda ship them
Ooooh....frisky are we?
I've never watched this show. This is a straight up sitcom lol
you need to watch it if you want youre life to be 10x better
It's definitely funny
I know I enjoyed it... 🤣
GIRL HOW DO U KNO THAT TURNS HIM ON
and
GIRL WHY KEEP DOING IT IF U KNEW
Either your being tongue in cheek or you misinterpreted the scene.
She didn’t admit that she’d known all along. She was being sarcastic about sending him some kind of message.
crazygirls
She's scared of him..... But why?
because Angel hid he was a vampire, Spike didn't hide what he was, what he liked, he sincerely said "I'm a love bitch but I'm man enought to admit it" That was Spike.
Angel was "we could be friends...." and during years kept hiding things from her, being vampire, Dru, Darla, his son, Cordelia, Faith....
Spike was so open about almost everything that could be overwhelming
What episode does she slap him?
Is Spike a masochist?
Pretty obvious he is lol
I'm not a fan of physical abuse. Can't give Buffy a pass on this one.
Completely agree. Especially since Buffy is supposed to be this 'force for good' and both Angel and Spike claim she inspired them to be better. You can't inspire someone to become a better person when your behaviour to them is worse than theirs is to you. Spike loved Buffy and she treated him with total disrespect; in the real world that would never inspire someone to 'be better' or feel supported that 'you believed in them.' Buffy's opinion of Spike by Season 7 is frankly meaningless; she had forfeited any right to be a 'good influence' on him after treating him so cruelly for literally no reason and never apologising. Spike was chipped and not a threat; good people do not hurt others because 'they deserve it; they're evil', but only in self defense/for the greater good however your ethical system defines it. It's NEVER right to hurt people who can't defend themselves no matter how 'bad' they are; in fact, treating a bad person 'better than they deserve' can sometimes be the only way to get them to turn their life around. Buffy should have learned from her experience with Faith to treat Spike with more kindness and less judgement if the writers wanted to make their relationship and Spike changing FOR her believable.
Spike was an evil soulless vampire who killed innocent people. She's literally destined to hurt him lol
@@rowenamckinley1079 The definition of good is being destined to help, not harm. In a complex world, it is often necessary to choose a lesser evil for the greater good. Incapacitaing, imprisoning, or even killing a criminal FOR THE SAKE OF PROTECTING OTHERS may well be the right thing to do in many instances. My problem with Buffy was that her end goal was to hurt Spike or anyone she considered 'evil', not help others. That was just a byproduct that didn't even seem to interest her much: she certainly never derived contentment from knowing her role as the Slayer helped people. She wanted to destroy evil rather than promote goodness, but the only reason FOR destroying evil is to make way for goodness. Spike was no longer in her way or hindering the cause of good once he was chipped, so she had no business hurting him rather than eliminating real threats - not to 'hurt' those threats, but to aid the people threatened. Hurting Spike at this point was just revengeful, childish and petty. It helped no one and was not in any way 'good' behaviour from Buffy.
@@cmm5542 Buffy was the vampire slayer. She was quite literally born to kill vampires. That was her goal. So obviously hurting them didn't bother her when her instinct is to kill them. Spike followed her around and tried to kill her repeatedly. He tried to kill her friends. He tried to assault her. He has great character growth and becomes a good ally to her in the end, but that doesn't absolve him of all he did. Buffy was not and had never been a pacifist and your opinion of good is not the definition. I'm not about to pretend that a vampire slayer who wants to hurt vampires is a character flaw.
@@rowenamckinley1079 WANTING to hurt is always a character flaw. I'm not in the least in favour of pacifism. But the motto is: 'Not to promote war, but to preserve peace.' The only thing that makes it okay for Buffy to kill vampires while it's not okay for them to kill humans, is if the reason vampires kill is because they want to hurt people, and the reason Buffy kills is because she wants to save people. But it was never confirmed that Buffy really wanted to save people: she just had to be the Slayer and did it without much interest in those she saved, so how is her killing any more moral than the vampires' killing? This point was raised more than once in the show - 'Being the Slayer is turning me to stone' - but never fully resolved in Buffy's favour, which I felt was unfair to the character.
I'm not saying it should have bothered Buffy to hurt vampires. I'm saying she should not have taken such pleasure in it as to continue hurting ANYONE when it served no practical or saving purpose. That's just twisted and should only be the behaviour of villains, not heroes no matter how flawed. If you no longer prioritize good over evil, then you can't be a hero. Being flawed just means the hero makes mistakes and does the wrong thing sometimes: LIKING doing the wrong thing, like hurting people for no reason, makes you a villain. They kept switching Buffy back and forth from hero to villain character, and even though SMG played both roles well, it was a senseless and directionless character arc in my opinion.
Not love juuuuust money? 🤷🖕🤚
🤣♥️♥️♥️♥️
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, "Third Base" is not "flirting." Mormon.
Mormon?
If anything, you have that reversed since Buffy calls it third base and the title of the clip is flirting.
This makes zero sense. How do you even get a date with anyone if you don't even so much as flirt and show interest?
ok, victim blaming. That's how she threatens him fir info. As soon as he escalates *his* obsession with her and she realizes his feelings, she has the Wiccans put a block on the door, to 'uninvite him."
Bc of his toxic history and being a vamp, it's he that's confused her anger and distain w love
I don't think this is victim blaming. They had a clear sexual relationship after this. This clip isn't saying that she is responsible for the rape attempt. Neither is their past sexual relationship, but that's not the point of the clip either. It's just showing that Buffy flirted with Spike.
@@LadyEowyn they had a sexual relationship bc she was back from the dead, despondent, disinterested in life, broken up with, and just wanting to feell something, She knew he was into her, and it was a distraction. Both one of the writers and the written of the official guide commented on not liking the connotation of the scene. She only realized in that moment it was probably a turn on for him. he didnt see that until her Mom said that. Didnt say anything about the rape scene. If she actually was aware of her flirting, as you say, she wouldm't have blocked him from the house, and be disgusted at him thinking they were on a date when he took her to watch for Riley.
@@MyselftheElf she was absolutely aware of flirting… she’s always been aware of his feelings for her and she used him right until the end. She’s not innocent
@@kieramcgregor exactly! Even Buffy herself told him “I’m using you”
@@MyselftheElf it’s true that their sleeping together in Season 6 wasn’t authentic because they both had issues: Buffy was depressed and Spike hadn’t gotten his soul back yet. I don’t understand why the writers made so many of those scenes with them 2 when they know it wouldn’t work anyway. I find that offensive because I ship these 2. But in season 7 things finally started to HEAL finally. I don’t agree with the writers making Spike a stalker in season 5. They should’ve wrote him different. I liked it better when he just had a regular crush (aka Fool for Love episode). Not some creepy obsession. There are certain eps I’ll never re watch. And the rape episode was unnecessary. I get they were trying to give Spike motivation to get his soul back. But they should’ve thought of something else
I still don't get why people like this ship. Spuffy fans have tried to explain but I've never liked it or even understood it.
The truth is, it's because James and Sarah have way more chemistry together onscreen than David and Sarah did. It's not even really about the characters so much as it is about the actors.
@@cirrustate8674 again, I still can't see it. Saying that SMG and James have good chemistry doesn't mean much because he had great chemistry with everyone he has a scene with. Frankly, Sarah showed more emotions when doing scenes with David than when she did with James. This one scene in the Angel cross over, he had to try and calm her down when she cried and she really lit up when Angel returned in season 7. I can see why she liked Bangel more than Spuffy because Angel had a soul while most of series Spike didn't. I would have supported the ship more if they had started their relationship when he had a soul. The show made a mistake for Buffy to have hooked up with him when he didn't have one, it was out of character.
@@cirrustate8674 It's true. And honestly Spike is a more compelling character and he's more complex than Angel. I don't love season 7 but the best thing about it is all of the Spike characterization. Not to mention we love a redemption arc.
@@Ergoperidot redemption, yes. We watch him change from basic evil, to minor villain, to punch line, to possibilities, to destroyed-man-with-soul, to sidekick of hero (Angel). Change toward good is compelling.
@@Ergoperidot season 7 was pretty good , season 4 was bad and season 1 could have been alot better..
It's unprecedented.