This is great Russ. Cannot say enough about low gearing. I run a triple as it's pretty much the only way to get a 17 inch gear and still have enough top end to bomb descents. Big climbs in the Cascades are my favorite and my power meter taught me to get over the aesthetics of granny gear pretty quick and I love spinning past gravel racers suffering under the heavy yoke of 1:1 gear ratios. Plus, in bad moments like a bonk climbing at mile 100 this weekend, I just threw it in granny and ate and drank and did recovery watts instead of burying myself deeper in the hole. Too bad the "industry" thinks everyone is Ted King.
@@fredricknietzsche7316 Not much my uber-mensch. I think I would dig brifters again sometimes tho. I once tried to cut my left thumb off with a sawz-all so the light action of a wet disc is a must for me when I find myself pointed downhill in a field of baby heads, and the industry don't do triple brifters and hydros. I run Dura - Ace bar end shifters with hylex discs which is pretty sweet most times.
@@fredricknietzsche7316 I love my triple on the giant Toughroad SLR 2. The only reason why i bought it is for the triple - it's a bike i take out when it's going to be hilly and i'm not on tarmac. I have 100% confidence the triple will allow me to ride anything rideable. Anything less than the triple sounds crazy.
Run the gears you need, right? For me that’s 2x on the road,1x MTB and gravel. A 42/50 gets me up %20 grades well enough (without get passed by triples). Having owned and ridden many triples, my feeling is the front derailleur is the weakest part of the drivetrain. I’d also add that riding single-speeds has broadened my perspective with regard to gearing and speed. Higher gears are faster, if you can push them. I’d rather stand or suffer than spin along at 4mph. I’ll certainly agree that bikes are often spec’ed geared too high, for gravel anyway. I prefer something lower than 1 to 1. I wonder if it is because a lot of bikes end up on the bike path rather than the local KOM segments, epic rides or ultra-distance events?
My 1961 CX bike has a 46/30 crankset from that era. And a freewheel with a max of 30. 58 years later and we are back to reinventing sub compacts on gravel bikes.
Fully agree 46/30 was the go-to gearing for many French constructors in the 50's and 60's on TA or Stronglight 49D, or Herse cranks. They all got revived in the last years (Compass, Velo Orange...) and now finally adopted by Shimano, even Campagnolo just announced 48x32!!! I still enjoy it much better with a 9+ cog cassette and brifters than with a 4 or 5 speed freewheel... Personally, I use a 3x11 (46x38x28 TA with 11-29 Campagnolo cassette) It has many redundant gears but the range is great, never any big gaps and always good chain line.
I'm glad I kept my 3X10 mountain bike. It's super versatile, going up 20% hills on the trails or road touring with large gears and being able to keep close to my best candace. The chain also lasts very long with little crossover. Also, the front gears need little maintenance since for every 20 times I change the back gears, I only changed the front once. Sometimes the original ideas are the best. Like my rear rack, with the arrival of bikepacking I never took the rear rack off, it is useful for large or small panniers, a backpack or just a wind breaker, so useful.
Retrogrouch 9 speed triples forever! (or at least until I can't get parts anymore). 46/36/24 with an 11-32 cassette for loaded touring. 50/40/30 with a 12-30 cassette for rando/sport touring. Ok, and a 1 X 9 for commuting simplicity.
@@theholymacintosh Honestly, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've needed the 50:12 or the 24:32. The Sheldon Brown 13-34 9 speed cassette would be much more useful but it's evidently not made anymore (though I think there might be a 10 speed option with that range). My rando bike has a Campy drive train with a Marchesio conversion cassette so that makes for fewer options. When that cassette wears out, I guess I'll have to try the Jtek Shiftmate.
I never understood the logic of getting rid of one small alloy chainring (like 30 or 28 or 26) in front and then replacing it with 3 or 4 huge (36+) cogs in the rear and ending up with a cassette that either weighs more than my entire TA crankset and/or costs more than my entire drive train and then have chains that last 2000KM and chainrings and cassettes that are dead after 6000Km... I know someone that left for a long touring trip with a shiny new 1x12, he was a bit shocked that chains lasted about two weeks and after 6 weeks his entire drive train was dead (32T chainring and 11-50 cassette) his drive train budget was bigger than his food budget... He stopped and changed the whole thing back to 3x9... with 3x8, 3x9 you can get chains that last 6,000Km and a drivetrain that lasts 20 or 30,000Km, but who cares most people get a new bike way before that anyways....
Sometimes it didn't needs to be understood, since it didn't using logic at all. Right now I'm switching from stock 3x7 to 1x7. The old stock (3 speeds) crank length was too long for me (170mm). Any chainring combo with shorter length (like about 155~165) are quite rare and expensive in my local market. On the other side, these shorter, cheap, lovely single 42t non-brand crank from china priced less than 6$. Just slap another 30~40 bucks for gigantic cogs hoping it became more rideable. Getting rid smaller chainrings just kinda blasphemy for these valuable cranks.
Russ, thanks for such a lot of work explaining about gears, very helpful. Last year I did the JOGLE in the UK with a fully loaded steel bike and my 210 lbs of supreme fitness, ha !!! (this went down to 196 lbs over the 12 days it took!), sorry, I digress- I started off with the usual 22/32/44T front rings and 11-34T rear cassette. I never used the 44T front ring , so I am off to ride in Wales in a few weeks time (National Cycle Route 8) and have taken off the 44T, not to save any weight or aesthetics etc, I just know I don't need it. I am back at 210 lbs due to lock down and all the nice Barbie weather we are having here !. I have been training- 3 rides a week, just turned 60 and upped my daily prayers for good luck on the next trip. Take care all out there, stay safe because if where you live is like here in the UK, all the nutters are back at work in their big vans and of course they are not one bit bothered about you or me on our bikes. Cheers. Mike (UK)
I used to run a 46/32 and found it a great mix. I now have a 46/28 and it has been working great. like you mine works for 99% of the riding I would ever to and 100% of the riding I do locally.
Which derailleur cage would you need for that setup ? What if it was 11/36 ? Any suggestions with figuring which derailleur cage size would accommodate different chainring /cassette setups ? Thank you!
Last year 32 11-42 worked great on my Big Honzo, did 6 overnighters on this setup. Rode up all the hills and fast enough with + tires on the flats. Wouldn't mind making it a 10-42. Picked up a Kona Rove LTD a couple months ago, it's a 40 10-42 and will be my more paved gravel bikepacker. Haven't bikepacked with it yet but I will be getting a 36 or 34 to switch out the 40 for loaded hilly trips. I am pretty darn happy with the 1X setup, especially in mostly trail situations on the Big Honzo. I could go either way for gravel/paved situations, 1X or 2X, mostly I liked the Rove LTD and it came with Force so why not give'r a try and I gotta say the Force group is pretty sweet, including the brakes, and mated with the Rove LTD frame it's a Hell of a good ride. Looking forward to a loaded overnighter on it. Also I'm not racing when I am backpacking so if I spin out my big gear on a downhill I coast and have yet to think, darn it I need to go faster on this downhill.
I have a SRAM Rival 1x 11-42t because we predominantly ride paved, occasionally gravel, rarely mountainous. We are flat here in Texas. But we love the comfort level of a gravel bike
IMO the big problem is all the 11 tooth cassettes out there. With many 11-XX cassettes your first 2-4 gears are so big as to be useless to the average rider except on downhills. I really wish the industry would go back to offering 13 and 14 tooth end cogs for all us bikepackers and non-wannabe racers. I cobbled together a 14-36 10 speed cassette and it was great. Tightly spaced gears and I was able to use all my cogs. Sure, this meant I'd spin out on long descents but A) Going 30+mph on a gravel descent in the middle of nowhere when you're by yourself is perhaps not the smartest thing to do and B) If a downhill is long/steep enough to allow those speeds that probably means I just climbed up something equally long and steep and now want a break! It would be great to see someone offer a 14-46 cassette for touring. For example: 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46. You have tight 2 tooth jumps at the top end, 3 tooth jumps in the middle and only 4 tooth jumps in the low climbing gears. Seems a lot nicer than the 6 or even 8 tooth gaps you see at the low end of some cassettes these days. The 6 tooth jump from the 36 to the 42 and the 8 tooth jump from the 42 to the 50 are the worse parts of my 11-50 1x drivetrain. I'd happily give up some top end speed for tighter spacing at the low end.
Because it's impractical. Firstly, you've got the weight. Secondly, cassettes are still relatively expensive to make even with modern industry. They need to be making few variants at high quantities. Cassettes give range, the ratio should be adjusted with chainrings.
The truth is, 90% of all groupsets out there that are not very low end are geared for racing. Hence the crazy high top gears. Very specially road groupsets, and even supposed 'gravel' builds suffer from this. Combine that with 90% of all riders will never ever sprint at 30+ mph, and you get to where we are. I've been cobbling together parts to swap into my 50/34, 11/34 CX bike, and boy it's been fun. In the end I managed to pair a 46/30 crankset with a 11/40 casette, but it's been blood sweat and tears to get it sorted without having to get expensive new brifters, BB...
mi father has a 1992 bianchi rigid iron mtb, it's fucking heavy about 20kg with a 3X7 shimano gs100 biopace. i was without a bike for two weeks i trained on it when i got my bike back it was like flying i'm using it when i want to increase my stamina and power
Keeping it simple when loaded... just use a triple crank.... and will get the low range without the need to bother looking trendy with the one by or a two by with a giant freewheel......and being a total retro grouch.... I am still using my 1992 Deore Xt triple crank....and love it!
I think for me the death knell of the 50-34 gearing was finally shown in a video from last year on GCN. They interviewed the winner of the Transcontinental bike race across Europe, James Hayden, about his bike. He runs 46-34, and a custom cassette with 13-34. That's right, his top gear is 46x13. So all those people who "need" a 50x11 are totally kidding themselves, even if they are racing. Check him out chatting about how he chose his gearing setup: ruclips.net/video/ZIsuG8agZDI/видео.html
I'm building a 2x9 wide range set up: 17.3 to 110 gear inches! 42/26T (the Rivendell Clipper AKA Sugino XD2) and Sunrace 11-40 9 speed. Starts with 18.8 gear inches to 110. I have a 24T chainring that I'll put on for touring: 17.3 gear inches! It took some research to find a derailleur but Microshift Advent (2x9 Long) is speced to do this (47T chainwrap). And I'm putting the Microshift Marvo triple front derailleur on with a Sunrace thumb shifter to help with the big jump.
With the Bike Friday 451mm wheels, 50/34, 11-34 works great! Before I had a 50/39/30, 12-26 and I had to crank hard up hills, so the 50/34 11speed cassette actually gives me extra higher and lower gears.
I think a 9 or 10 speed mountain double is perfect for almost everything a recreational rider needs. The only thing that bums me out about them is that nobody makes a good looking silver one.
I rode Minneapolis to Duluth, around 300 miles round trip on a single speed cyclocross bike, loaded with rear panniers, tent, sleeping bag, mat, etc. I think I’ll go 1x on my next bike.
Great video Russ. Regarding your frustration with multi wheel size bikes. I have been thinking a bit about this, and will share my thoughts. Maybe the problem is that the bike industry tries to sell bikes as being able to run a too wide range in both wheel sizes. A multi wheel size bike should either run 700c gravel tires in the 45mm range or 650b/27.5” tires in the 2.35” range. That would only change the bb height around 5 mm (also the tire radius). That is the same difference you get from switching between 40mm and 45mm 700c tires. It seem to me that designing such a bike is possible without compromising the geometry. The problem I see with such an approach is that the bike might be a hard sell, it would not be recommended to run the hugely popular 650bx47mm tires. However the primary reason why I am drawn to a multi wheel size bike, is the the ability to run MTB tires, and the huge clearance is perfect for that, I do not care that much about the 650bx47mm tires. Others might have different priorities. There are bikes that are able to accommodate such a huge tire range, Bearclaw Bicycle Co. Thunderhawk and All-City Gorilla Monsoon for example. Maybe Bearclaw and All-City gets it and the rest of the industry don´t ;-)
IMO only cyclists looking to maintain a specific cadence need plenty of gears to choose from. Personally, I like 2x drivetrains with 8-10 speeds with a wide range is perfectly fine.
Still not tempted by 1x but getting close. Most important point is to get a smallest cog of 10 not 11 so you can get a smaller chain ring say 42, with a 10/42 so fast enough with the 10 and also easy enough with a 42. So equivalent to a 46/30 and 11/30. Canyon sell their Grail with Force 1x with a 10/46 and 42 chainring, so as good as it gets. The RD will also take a 46 cassette for steeper hills. 9t cassettes are available as well....
Agree on sprinting. I just don't care because well for me I can barely use it, it only comes in handy on downhills on easy roads. I care about the speeds I can maintain "indefinitely". So low low gears for up hill and "not that fast" gears for flats.
A bit off topic, but...could you talk about some good ways of finding gravel biking routes in a persons local area? Like mapping apps, etc. 'm interested in finding those 'paths less pedaled.' Thanks!!!
50,40,30 Campag triple matched to a 10 speed 13-29 cassette. I'd like to go lower, but Campagnolo doesn't really support bike tourists! However, the cassettes are only £30 and much lighter than these monster cassettes.
Like the graphs. You are right...you and Henry Wildberry show that there is other types of cycling. GCN do's a good show for the racing side. But I would still use the brommie for touring around England. Thank you.
Update!!! just went from a 50 big to 46/34 with 11 to 34 cassette so thrilled. Actually now swapped out the 50/34 for a 46/32 with a 11/34 cassette. I feel this is way more appropriate for my road light gravel riding with many hills some very steep I do here in PA Land...For More Info...FSA Omega cranks with a 10 speed Tiagra GS long cage derailleur. So far no issues and I didnt even have to shorten the chain just tighten the B screw...Also the front derailleur is a Braze on...I hope this help someone because wondering if this all works is a pain to find out....
When you used the pizza analogy on the 50 tooth(!) pizza cassette I immediately thought of the Yogi Berra (ask your dad or grandfather if the name doesn't ring a bell) quote when asked if he wanted his pizza cut into 6 or 8 pieces..."you better cut it into 6, I don't think I can eat 8" 🤣🤣🤣. Getting serious the comment by jogbird regarding cadence is very important. Cassettes with big jumps, like the 1X, often leave me either spinning too fast or grinding too low. Spinning at the right cadence, even if it involves double shifting, is more efficient and much less tiring over a long day and that is worth a lot. Doubles or triples have some close gearing overlap but not exact overlap so that the small differences can have a comfort effect....increased supple? Top end speed, aside from racing, is pretty pointless. When did you ever go for a ride or tour and wished you had more top end (downhill?...coast and recover). I think the argument about 1X being "less complicated" is specious, rear derailleurs are more prone to damage and when was the last time you heard a story about a broken front mech? Perhaps the most robust drivetrains are Rohloff (15 speed) or pinion (18 speed) with no overlap, super wide range, good low end and robust as can be. One can discuss this topic forever.....and always will.
Love my 24/34/46 and 26/36/48 9 Speed XTR cranks. Do Wish Shimano made the new GRX double with a 46/28. Pair that with an 11-40 and you'd have a hell of a set-up
Just extended the GRX 800 RD with a 11-46 cassette and a GRX 48/31 thats 18.4 gear inch to 120….all it needed was a wolf lint! I think it will fit a 11-51 and know someone running just that in the Di2 version, thats 16.8 GI on the low side!!
I'm also going to set up an alternate narrower wheelset- 1x gearing with a shimano cassette- 40 front, 11/42 11 spd back. with a 27.5 38mm tire... 25-95 gear inches for more pavement oriented rides.
Ah. Geez. Just sold a bunch of bikes which have a lot of miles (Vaya, Warbird, Spacehorse). Of those the Vaya. Currently, the VO Polyvalent has taken the place of the Vaya and I'm digging it.
@@pauldenali6367 Same for me: 3 by X for an adventure (aka gravel and beyond) bike. Very glad I didn't opted for 2 by Y or 1 by Z :) . All other setups are for optimization to the specific purpose. Those purposes might include PR on Dirty Kanza, but require another optimization for Land Run or some other event that, for example, uses single traks. Moreover, for tarmac/hradpack with undulating hills one with 1 by N might cry loud for a larger chainring whilst being dropped by happy enthusiasts of 3 by X :) .
What do you think abt thumbshifters for bikepacking/touring bikes? I've lately been obssessing abt shifters for my Jones loop bar. I wonder if thumbies actually offer superior practicality and longevity to modern MTB shifters, which some say are reliable enough for any type of touring and have the andvantage of being easy to use. I want to order Sunrace thumbies, which can also be used to mount barend shifters to flat bars (cheaper alternative to Paul thumbies)
Newbie here. As a follow up video, could you talk more about the 46/30 36t combo? Being your personal favorite, what are some brands or configurations you would use? I'm still choosing the specs for a new bike build so this information would be very handy.
FSA makes a budget 46/30. Praxis might also make one. Personally I feel like 46/30 is good for heavy loaded riding on 32 or maybe 35c. Wider tires (on 700c) might need a mountain double. 48/32 is another more popular size that more brands are starting to make (like fsa and praxis). Its definitively faster than most people need on 700c but maybe a better option for 650b riders with only light loads and commuting needs. Personally I still love triples and my 48/36/26 is great with a 12-36. The 12-36 takes the top end down just a bit but helps distribute the gearing across the middle of the cassette for a tighter cluster. ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=26,36,48&RZ=12,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32,36&UF=2185&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=speed&GR2=DERS&KB2=30,46&RZ2=11,13,15,17,19,21,24,28,32,36&UF2=2185
We also need cassettes that start at 14T sprockets instead of 11. Even with a 46/30 crank, I don't need those small cogs and a tight pattern on a 14-36 would be great.
Yay!!! Shimano's new GRX 400 is stock with a 46/30 chainset!!! And they are making it compatible with both road and MTB cassettes! AND!!!!! they have hydraulic auxiliary levers!
What are peoples views on the Sram Apex 1 groupset that comes with a 40 tooth chainset and 42 cassette. Would that give a comparable low end to say a 30 tooth chainring on a triple, with a 32 cassette, or would there be a loss of hill climbing gears? The reason that I ask is because I am thinking of getting an adventure/gravel bike with this system that would be used for a lot of a normal tarmac use and the lower end would be vital for me, but I won't get to try the bike in person first. Any help would be appreciated on this.
I love this video and am glad you were able to talk about your crank preferences more. I use a 50/34 and a 11-42 and have really enjoyed it for long days (7+ hours) off road. The shimano 2x mtb gears look like the perfect solution with a wolftooth cable pull adjuster. You could get a 10-46 cassette and a 50/34 and have a massive gear range and really crisp shifting.
Great video Russ, but I have a couple of things to add: 1) Range is important but so is cadence, which means you should put some focus on jumps between gears and not just the lowest and highest ones. 2) I like using gear-calculator.com/ for such comparisons since it shows jumps between gears well. 3) I agree that triples are old-fashioned and there's little chance they will come back. One of the reason, as you mentioned, is tire clearance and we tend to ride fatter tires now. I find 2x10 or 2x11 perfect for most situations. The 1x setups would be great once we somehow solve chainline problems and have more 12-speed cassette options. 4) Regarding the question whether to go 1x11 or stay with 2x10 or 2x11, it's good to keep in mind that jumps between gears with 2x10 setup could be quite small, while with 1x11 they will be huge. I thought about switching myself but to have about the same jumps as with my old 2x10 gearing, I would have to move to 1x13, which basically doesn't exist in the range I want. 5) That also answers to some degree how many gears you need. Another factor to consider is technology in newer shifters. When I switched from 2x10 to 2x11 I was surprised how much better the newer shifters (Shimano 105) shifted (better precision, response, etc.) I'm running 2x11 now, with 42/26T crankset and a 11-32T cassette. Works well in 99% of situations.
I just went from a 50 big to 46/34 with 11 to 34 cassette so thrilled. The 50 was so overkill for where I live in PA very hilly!!!!! I dont care about going fast I care about going Fun.....50/34 came stock on a Cannondale Synapse I just picked up...
I live in PA as well. I really want the 2021 checkpoint with the shimano grx 42 30 gear set but can’t seem to get one. I did find a 2021 Cervelo Aspero grx 1 but it’s a 1x crank. Was just wondering if that is enough gearing
One would have trouble finding a rear derailleur with enough capacity to work with a 48-36-24 and a 12-36. That combination is a capacity of 48. A Shimano Deore rd m591 is rated at 45, but will do 47. It won’t do 48. Get a 46-36-24 to go with that 12-36. If you have a 48-36-24, you can, with that m591 you can use a 11-34 in back.
@@PathLessPedaledTV No. Roadlinks allow you to fit a lower gear by lowering jockey wheels to fit under the bigger cog. It does not increase the capacity of the derailleur which would require a longer cage to take up more chain slack. Roadlinks are relying on Shimano significantly understating the actual capacity of their derailleurs to work.
I disagree with the number of speeds not mattering. It depends where and how you ride. I use a 42/28 with a 11-32 road cassette. I need a 1T jump at the small end of the cassette, for cadence purposes. I can't stand the 2T jumps on the small end. Offroad, it's fine if handling steeper terrain, but flatter stuff, the MTB cassettes don't work for me.
I decided to get myself a gravel/commute/touring bike. I've been cycling all my life, road-racing, touring, commuting. I discussed what I wanted with the bike mechanics at the shop I go to, and after some persuasion they finally convinced me (after listening to the types of riding I do) to go for an ultegra set-up compact front chain-ring and an 11-speed 11-32 on the rear. OMG I hated it. So I switched it out for an XT 48-36-24 chain-ring (which is what I thought would be best originally)(I also had to switch the shifters) and kept the 11-32 on the back. MUCH much much better. I really don't get this obsession with 2-by or even 1-by chain-rings. Why the feck do you want to torture yourself. And yes you *can* get a bigger spread of gear development with a huge rear cassette, but you end up with ridiculous jumps in gear development which in some situations will bring you to a dead stop because of the sudden change in cadence. Anyway, I'm much much happier with my triple chain-ring. Mirrors - yes, mirrors!! I was hit by a car a few years ago (100% drivers fault). I suffered a lot of injuries, one of which was a broken and crushed vertebra. When I eventually got back on the bike I wasn't able to turn around properly to see behind me. So I had to get myself mirrors and holy cow they're fecking brilliant ! Even though nowadays I can turn around to see behind me if I want to to, the mirrors are far more useful in many situations (on roads with car traffic). I now recommend all my cycling friends to get mirrors.
Rei co-op adv 3:2, 650b x 50 . 10spd , 11x36, 28 &44 crank.. changed to shamano 9032, 22 32 40, x180mm crank. 5ft8.5 " 78 yrs old . Love it. Don't compete,with shorter cranks. Years past, spent 7 days and nights riding in rain ,in southern b.c.canada. had low grade prostrate infection & internal yeast infection. Was running 34 cassette & mountain taimer quad crank. 48 ,36 ,38 ,18. Learned my lesson !! I can coast down 👇 without any effort, going up , takes efficient effort. I haven't pushed ,yet. Saved my life!!! Taken routes, many would not dare. P.s. I live to climb, it's keeping me alive 😂💪!!!! Great program !! Don't be afraid to think & and try outside the box
I am just after my first test ride of road/MTB combo 3x9 -- crankset 44/32/22 (range 200%) with cassette 12-26. Such cassette (~110% stepping) give you such smooth shifting... amazing. So far the the only downside is you need FD cable converter (JTek Shiftmate) so the price of the setup goes a bit up. But for now I would say it was worth it and I only wonder if I could hack this crankset a bit (violating Shimano advice) into 46/34/22 -- this would be a killer :-).
In my young days I rode a 52/39 x 13-21 in the hills of central PA. My present day bike a Canyon Pathlite AL 6.0 has the new Deore XT group that includes a 36/26 X 10-45 cassette. That's realistic for a guy in his 60's riding in the mountainous terrain of Idaho. The high gears keep me going on the pavement and the 26/45 gear is good for the gravelly 12% grades. I looked at gravel bikes and most don't have a reasonable low gear. Mountain bikes with 1x drivetrains don't have a reasonable high gear.
36/22 crank and 9-speed 11/36 cassette on my Disc Trucker. Fully loaded, I can practically climb a wall with that gearing. And when did 9-speed become retro? :-)
@Robert Trageser That sounds like a fantastic setup! Agree with everything you said. I should of mentioned, those 9-speed shifters I'm running are friction/indexed bar ends as well (on Paul's Thumbies). There have been a few times when I haven't been happy with the indexed shifting so I'll click over to friction on the fly. I love the ability to do that and I'll just worry about derailleur/cable adjustment when I get home. I won't ride with anything but friction/index shifters!
I started out on triple set chain rings with 8,9,10 cassettes but over the 35+years I’ve noticed seldom do I get into speeds of over 25km/hr while loaded. My knees and Achilles’ tendons can’t stand that let alone keeping my loaded bike stable at such speeds. I’ve been reducing my top end more to concentrate on hill climbing ease more. Many bike manufacturers were always presenting speed as the thing to concentrate on, that was crap as I found out. I will be soon switching to a gravel bike but I want at least one gear range below 20 gear inches for hill climbing and I still seem to get that stunned look from bike shops when I request that, what not go faster? No I’m not racing, I’m touring and the world isn’t flat!
I live in a fierce hilly area. I run 46-34t crankset and 11 speed 11-42t deore cassette on my flat handlebar urban bike. Never miss the 1x 40t setup (with the same cassette) I had before.
50/34 x 11/32 for fast rolling trails and... 42/28 x 11/42 on my monstercross for the extreme % I can find here in the French Pyrennees. Please brands, consider a 46/30 offering!
1x is the fucking worst. Unless you ride 100% on flat, paved bike paths. 1x means you lose low end, or high end, or BOTH... AND, it forces massive jumps between gears. Which is just the absolute worst. Nothing worse then being on a long climb and being FORCED to either spin to fast, or grind to slow... Get a 2x... Don't belive the 1x marketing hype.
Well I’ve been doing (mostly road) mixed-terrain rides on an old FW Evans touring bike with a 52/42/32 triple and a 12-28 9spd cassette but I guess I’m an idiot
I've tested a couple of 38/28 crankset double mtb's recently with 11-36 cassettes. I was astounded at how much worse they were than my Surly running a 24/32/42 triple with an 11-34 cassette. Such lack of instant correct ratios.
You forgot a very expensive but amazing option the 14 speed Rholoff. Every gear has the same jump so nice cadence and 600% range straight chain line and you can run a 1/8 chain also no dish in your rear wheel.
Path Less Pedaled yeah they are not cheap just priced one out here in Canada $1800 just for the hub but can't wait to have one on my next build my riding off in the sunset bike :-)
@Robert Trageser The only service needed is an oil change every 5000KMs which is super simple to do. Because its a sealed drive system and the gears are constantly in and oil bath very very few failures. If they do fail (and its a big IF) you send it to the company and they send you a new one they are amazing like that! And when you convert to an Rholoff you get rid of extra chain rings, the cassette, the freehub, less chain and front and rear mech, works out to about 160-180G difference so I would not call it heavy. Plus it's at the centre of your wheel to it's not like its rotational weight but the pros are amazing straight chain line, can change gears when stopped, can use a 1/8 chain so less chance of breaking if you use a carbon belt even smoother and quieter and stronger no dish in your rear wheel and a constant 13 degree jump between gears nice and smooth like butter and a nice clean look. It is a $1500 hub so that can price people out. But as long as you are out there enjoying two wheels and you are having fun does not really matter in the end! Have a great day!
Regarding the rotating mass thing: I'd like to point out that it's not just about the mass but also about how far away the mass is from the axis of rotation. Saving mass on your hub while keeping everything else the same will not make your wheelset any snappier. It will just make your bike lighter overall which will of course still help a little while pedaling it up hill.
Wouldn't it be best to have just one touring bicycle that can handle fat (at least 3.0") tires and have enough gear ranges for touring expeditions (as low as 25 gear inches) and high speed road riding (35+mph)? Can you also make a video on building such a bicycle?
@@PathLessPedaledTV The Salsa Fargo Framset size small upward can accommodate 29 x 2.4" with fenders and 29 X 3.0" without fenders. Do you think the geometry of this frame is good enough for high speed road riding?
Great video! Good choice of example tyre size because it is the same as 650x48. For larger 700c tyres the gears are a bit harder. Been using 40/28 MTB double with 11-32 for everything from light touring to pretty quick 31kph average rides. On the faster downhills I just tuck in. Stuck a 36 tooth expander on for Japanese Odyssey...although loaded much lighyt than my light tour the climbing was relentless for 10 days: my legs thanked me. I feel 46-30 would be perfect...really hope Shimano release something this year as there is a gap for 24mm spindle, reasonably light, reasonably priced chainset.
PaRtYpAcE ratio ?: for Seattle/PNW, if 38t x 11-42 was too fast, is 36t enough or should I try to source a 34t? I’ve got the 9-42 11-speed e-Thirteen cassette on there so not too worried about spinning out. 40t x 42t = .95 ratio 38t = .90 36t = .86 34t = .81
I currently have a 50-34 chainset and 11-34 cassette and get by with it, with a bit of struggle on super steep offroad climbs. Definitely plan to switch to a 48-32 or 46-30 on the front with a custom 11-36 on the back at some point. On topic of triples: They were necessary back when we had 8-speed tops, but nowadays you get more usable gears with a 2x11. Triples are just a hassle to shift and maintain, you can never use the full cassette with a chainring, just constant shifting the front to avoid chainrub. I could see a use for them if you were after an INSANE gear range, but then again there's probably no rear derrailleur that could keep the chain tensioned for that ^^
Depends on your chainstay length. My triple setup on my gravel bike runs and shifts perfectly fine on every single gear combination, and it's a non-standard setup with custom ratios too. I sometimes do have to tow a double baby trailer, do mountain climbs and loaded bike packing, but 90% of the time it's a road bike on a 25km per leg commute. It's a 9-speeds setup which means you can mix Shimano MTB rear mechs with road STI shifters. I paired an RD-M772-SGS long cage rear mech with Sora 3503 shifters.
I just built a Otso Warakin gravel bike and put on a 46/30 crankset with a 40 tooth cassette using RX-800 derailleur and it works amazing. It was a big difference coming from my endurance road bike with 50/34 + 32 tooth cassette.
Have an All City Gorilla Monsoon, 38T crank, 11-42 cassette. I;m 68, and a big guy. I struggle up hills - perhaps not the first one or two…but then I’m spent. What cassette etc., would you recommend that might help??
Did you get the road 50/34 & AXS 46/33 figures wrong? Seems if you dropped 4 cogs & used 90rpm, you'd be going slower with the AXS. Similarly a road 34 chainring to 34 cog wouldn't be the same as the AXS 33 to 34 cog
As I've gotten older, I find that I don't need those top gears as much. If I'm on a road where it is possible to go over 30 mph (like a nice downhill), then I'm not pedaling, I'm just enjoying the view as I coast down that hill. So even on my road bike I'm looking more for the lower gears. And yeah, on my gravel bike it's all about the low gears. Our gravel riding is on logging roads and some single-track, a lot of 10%+ inclines.
When switching over to a 10/50 or a 11/42 do you need a thinner chain and if you do what do you recommend? New to this and I'm willing to give it a try and see if it can work for me. Thank you for your quick reply and response
2x sub compact without question - and it is not all about gear range it is about smooth cadence and the jumps on the cassette. For me personally 11-30 is about the biggest spread I want on an 11 speed. Personally I run 46x30 + 11 speed 11-30. I was running 46 x36 ie classic cross but it was just not quite enough on the low end. +1 on the mountain double, not so much in love with triples with modern chains, the shifting is really quite poor.
It's really personal. I have no problem with a 2x 11-36t 11 speed setup. Some people are sensitive to large gaps, some aren't. For me it's only an issue if riding in a group.
What about a 36-15 or 13 close ratio 10 speed cassette? The only downside I can think of is weight but surely that's minimal for the type of riding we're talking about here?
So. I just (like an hour ago) ordered a Velo Orange Campeur frame and headset. Frankly, this is really not my kind of bike, but it’s the build my brother was planning when he suddenly passed a few weeks ago. I am considering - to use your term - “full-on SRAM.” 1x. 42 up front; a 10/42 in the back. That would seem to give me a pretty good range. I am NOT a hard core self-supported tourer. I have a credit card and would use it. Does the gearing sound reasonable? I should note that I am a novice mechanic. This will be a project. It will take a while. But the process is part of the process. I need to do Chris right. Canti brakes. Quaint, right?
Path Less Pedaled I live in Memphis. It’s pretty flat here. Just a few bluffs and a bit of a rise as you cross the River. My fitness level is fine for a 54-year-old. I knocked out 82 miles Saturday. Average speed of 16.1 mph ( a little faster than my usual). Thanks for your help. I am trying to feel this out. This is my first full-on build.
This is great Russ. Cannot say enough about low gearing. I run a triple as it's pretty much the only way to get a 17 inch gear and still have enough top end to bomb descents. Big climbs in the Cascades are my favorite and my power meter taught me to get over the aesthetics of granny gear pretty quick and I love spinning past gravel racers suffering under the heavy yoke of 1:1 gear ratios. Plus, in bad moments like a bonk climbing at mile 100 this weekend, I just threw it in granny and ate and drank and did recovery watts instead of burying myself deeper in the hole. Too bad the "industry" thinks everyone is Ted King.
@@fredricknietzsche7316 Not much my uber-mensch. I think I would dig brifters again sometimes tho. I once tried to cut my left thumb off with a sawz-all so the light action of a wet disc is a must for me when I find myself pointed downhill in a field of baby heads, and the industry don't do triple brifters and hydros. I run Dura - Ace bar end shifters with hylex discs which is pretty sweet most times.
Word.
@@fredricknietzsche7316 I love my triple on the giant Toughroad SLR 2. The only reason why i bought it is for the triple - it's a bike i take out when it's going to be hilly and i'm not on tarmac. I have 100% confidence the triple will allow me to ride anything rideable. Anything less than the triple sounds crazy.
Isn't this what most MTBs do already? I don't get the obsession with 1x tbh.
Run the gears you need, right?
For me that’s 2x on the road,1x MTB and gravel. A 42/50 gets me up %20 grades well enough (without get passed by triples). Having owned and ridden many triples, my feeling is the front derailleur is the weakest part of the drivetrain. I’d also add that riding single-speeds has broadened my perspective with regard to gearing and speed. Higher gears are faster, if you can push them. I’d rather stand or suffer than spin along at 4mph.
I’ll certainly agree that bikes are often spec’ed geared too high, for gravel anyway. I prefer something lower than 1 to 1. I wonder if it is because a lot of bikes end up on the bike path rather than the local KOM segments, epic rides or ultra-distance events?
My 1961 CX bike has a 46/30 crankset from that era. And a freewheel with a max of 30.
58 years later and we are back to reinventing sub compacts on gravel bikes.
Fully agree 46/30 was the go-to gearing for many French constructors in the 50's and 60's on TA or Stronglight 49D, or Herse cranks. They all got revived in the last years (Compass, Velo Orange...) and now finally adopted by Shimano, even Campagnolo just announced 48x32!!!
I still enjoy it much better with a 9+ cog cassette and brifters than with a 4 or 5 speed freewheel... Personally, I use a 3x11 (46x38x28 TA with 11-29 Campagnolo cassette) It has many redundant gears but the range is great, never any big gaps and always good chain line.
I'm glad I kept my 3X10 mountain bike. It's super versatile, going up 20% hills on the trails or road touring with large gears and being able to keep close to my best candace. The chain also lasts very long with little crossover. Also, the front gears need little maintenance since for every 20 times I change the back gears, I only changed the front once. Sometimes the original ideas are the best. Like my rear rack, with the arrival of bikepacking I never took the rear rack off, it is useful for large or small panniers, a backpack or just a wind breaker, so useful.
Mountain 22/36 does just right when riding loaded. Touring is usually around 18-20 kmh
Retrogrouch 9 speed triples forever! (or at least until I can't get parts anymore). 46/36/24 with an 11-32 cassette for loaded touring. 50/40/30 with a 12-30 cassette for rando/sport touring. Ok, and a 1 X 9 for commuting simplicity.
44/32/22 and 11-28, not *quite* as tall as your 50:12 and not *quite* as low as your 24:32, but can do it all ;) :p
@@theholymacintosh Honestly, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've needed the 50:12 or the 24:32. The Sheldon Brown 13-34 9 speed cassette would be much more useful but it's evidently not made anymore (though I think there might be a 10 speed option with that range). My rando bike has a Campy drive train with a Marchesio conversion cassette so that makes for fewer options. When that cassette wears out, I guess I'll have to try the Jtek Shiftmate.
I've been riding 9-speeds for years now with single, double and triple chainsets. Totally agree with you with the chainset versus bike's use.
Just got my Journeyman setup with GRX 46/30 and 11-40 XT cassette. Goes a bit slow, but really easy on steep (10%+) climbs!
I never understood the logic of getting rid of one small alloy chainring (like 30 or 28 or 26) in front and then replacing it with 3 or 4 huge (36+) cogs in the rear and ending up with a cassette that either weighs more than my entire TA crankset and/or costs more than my entire drive train and then have chains that last 2000KM and chainrings and cassettes that are dead after 6000Km... I know someone that left for a long touring trip with a shiny new 1x12, he was a bit shocked that chains lasted about two weeks and after 6 weeks his entire drive train was dead (32T chainring and 11-50 cassette) his drive train budget was bigger than his food budget... He stopped and changed the whole thing back to 3x9... with 3x8, 3x9 you can get chains that last 6,000Km and a drivetrain that lasts 20 or 30,000Km, but who cares most people get a new bike way before that anyways....
Sometimes it didn't needs to be understood, since it didn't using logic at all.
Right now I'm switching from stock 3x7 to 1x7. The old stock (3 speeds) crank length was too long for me (170mm). Any chainring combo with shorter length (like about 155~165) are quite rare and expensive in my local market. On the other side, these shorter, cheap, lovely single 42t non-brand crank from china priced less than 6$. Just slap another 30~40 bucks for gigantic cogs hoping it became more rideable.
Getting rid smaller chainrings just kinda blasphemy for these valuable cranks.
Finally, an explanation on gearing that makes sense to me! Thank you SOOO much.
I switched to a MTB 44/28 and 11/34 cassette and I love it.
Russ, thanks for such a lot of work explaining about gears, very helpful.
Last year I did the JOGLE in the UK with a fully loaded steel bike and my 210 lbs of supreme fitness, ha !!! (this went down to 196 lbs over the 12 days it took!), sorry, I digress- I started off with the usual 22/32/44T front rings and 11-34T rear cassette. I never used the 44T front ring , so I am off to ride in Wales in a few weeks time (National Cycle Route 8) and have taken off the 44T, not to save any weight or aesthetics etc, I just know I don't need it.
I am back at 210 lbs due to lock down and all the nice Barbie weather we are having here !. I have been training- 3 rides a week, just turned 60 and upped my daily prayers for good luck on the next trip.
Take care all out there, stay safe because if where you live is like here in the UK, all the nutters are back at work in their big vans and of course they are not one bit bothered about you or me on our bikes. Cheers. Mike (UK)
48/32 and a 11/34 cassette works for me 99% of situations
lars rytter praxis zayante but recently switched to grx 46/30 and an 11-40 cassette. Getting old!!
I used to run a 46/32 and found it a great mix. I now have a 46/28 and it has been working great. like you mine works for 99% of the riding I would ever to and 100% of the riding I do locally.
Which derailleur cage would you need for that setup ? What if it was 11/36 ? Any suggestions with figuring which derailleur cage size would accommodate different chainring /cassette setups ? Thank you!
@@amermilanovic496 wolf tooth makes an adapter that helps you to use a long cage 105 or Ultegra derailleur.
Not enough for bike packing
Last year 32 11-42 worked great on my Big Honzo, did 6 overnighters on this setup. Rode up all the hills and fast enough with + tires on the flats. Wouldn't mind making it a 10-42.
Picked up a Kona Rove LTD a couple months ago, it's a 40 10-42 and will be my more paved gravel bikepacker. Haven't bikepacked with it yet but I will be getting a 36 or 34 to switch out the 40 for loaded hilly trips.
I am pretty darn happy with the 1X setup, especially in mostly trail situations on the Big Honzo. I could go either way for gravel/paved situations, 1X or 2X, mostly I liked the Rove LTD and it came with Force so why not give'r a try and I gotta say the Force group is pretty sweet, including the brakes, and mated with the Rove LTD frame it's a Hell of a good ride. Looking forward to a loaded overnighter on it.
Also I'm not racing when I am backpacking so if I spin out my big gear on a downhill I coast and have yet to think, darn it I need to go faster on this downhill.
I have a SRAM Rival 1x 11-42t because we predominantly ride paved, occasionally gravel, rarely mountainous. We are flat here in Texas. But we love the comfort level of a gravel bike
IMO the big problem is all the 11 tooth cassettes out there. With many 11-XX cassettes your first 2-4 gears are so big as to be useless to the average rider except on downhills. I really wish the industry would go back to offering 13 and 14 tooth end cogs for all us bikepackers and non-wannabe racers. I cobbled together a 14-36 10 speed cassette and it was great. Tightly spaced gears and I was able to use all my cogs. Sure, this meant I'd spin out on long descents but A) Going 30+mph on a gravel descent in the middle of nowhere when you're by yourself is perhaps not the smartest thing to do and B) If a downhill is long/steep enough to allow those speeds that probably means I just climbed up something equally long and steep and now want a break!
It would be great to see someone offer a 14-46 cassette for touring. For example: 14, 16, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, 34, 38, 42, 46. You have tight 2 tooth jumps at the top end, 3 tooth jumps in the middle and only 4 tooth jumps in the low climbing gears. Seems a lot nicer than the 6 or even 8 tooth gaps you see at the low end of some cassettes these days. The 6 tooth jump from the 36 to the 42 and the 8 tooth jump from the 42 to the 50 are the worse parts of my 11-50 1x drivetrain. I'd happily give up some top end speed for tighter spacing at the low end.
Because it's impractical. Firstly, you've got the weight. Secondly, cassettes are still relatively expensive to make even with modern industry. They need to be making few variants at high quantities.
Cassettes give range, the ratio should be adjusted with chainrings.
Check out "Miché" cassettes, they do a 13-30 (11speed)
The truth is, 90% of all groupsets out there that are not very low end are geared for racing. Hence the crazy high top gears. Very specially road groupsets, and even supposed 'gravel' builds suffer from this.
Combine that with 90% of all riders will never ever sprint at 30+ mph, and you get to where we are.
I've been cobbling together parts to swap into my 50/34, 11/34 CX bike, and boy it's been fun. In the end I managed to pair a 46/30 crankset with a 11/40 casette, but it's been blood sweat and tears to get it sorted without having to get expensive new brifters, BB...
I love the take a look mirrors.
I'm really enjoying all of your videos. I learn something new just about every video.
3x7 BIOPACE ALL DAY BABY
Meme or do you actually like biopace ?
@@ianRichter21 I had it and hated it
mi father has a 1992 bianchi rigid iron mtb, it's fucking heavy about 20kg with a 3X7 shimano gs100 biopace. i was without a bike for two weeks i trained on it when i got my bike back it was like flying i'm using it when i want to increase my stamina and power
😂😂😂😂😂
@@litenantjv GS100 was never cutting edge technology 😉
3years after this posted- I finally settled on a 2x11 36/24 chainrings and a 11-36 cassette.
TRRRIPPPLEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How did you leave out 50-39-30!!!! w/ 11-34 or 11-36 please update, its my current setup and its amazing!!!!
I agree 50/39/30 forever is the best!
Keeping it simple when loaded... just use a triple crank.... and will get the low range without the need to bother looking trendy with the one by or a two by with a giant freewheel......and being a total retro grouch.... I am still using my 1992 Deore Xt triple crank....and love it!
I think for me the death knell of the 50-34 gearing was finally shown in a video from last year on GCN. They interviewed the winner of the Transcontinental bike race across Europe, James Hayden, about his bike. He runs 46-34, and a custom cassette with 13-34. That's right, his top gear is 46x13. So all those people who "need" a 50x11 are totally kidding themselves, even if they are racing. Check him out chatting about how he chose his gearing setup: ruclips.net/video/ZIsuG8agZDI/видео.html
I'm building a 2x9 wide range set up: 17.3 to 110 gear inches! 42/26T (the Rivendell Clipper AKA Sugino XD2) and Sunrace 11-40 9 speed. Starts with 18.8 gear inches to 110. I have a 24T chainring that I'll put on for touring: 17.3 gear inches! It took some research to find a derailleur but Microshift Advent (2x9 Long) is speced to do this (47T chainwrap). And I'm putting the Microshift Marvo triple front derailleur on with a Sunrace thumb shifter to help with the big jump.
I'm glad you're helping bring awareness to touring and riding bikes for the fun and adventure aspects instead of just for speed and competition.
Chain ring on my fatbike for road and gravel that works awesome for me is 28/38 by 36/12 cassette! Perfect!!
Cassette 9 speed. To above comments
With the Bike Friday 451mm wheels, 50/34, 11-34 works great! Before I had a 50/39/30, 12-26 and I had to crank hard up hills, so the 50/34 11speed cassette actually gives me extra higher and lower gears.
I think a 9 or 10 speed mountain double is perfect for almost everything a recreational rider needs. The only thing that bums me out about them is that nobody makes a good looking silver one.
Loved the gearing explanation
I rode Minneapolis to Duluth, around 300 miles round trip on a single speed cyclocross bike, loaded with rear panniers, tent, sleeping bag, mat, etc. I think I’ll go 1x on my next bike.
Currently running GRX 46/30 and 11-36 in the back, for bikepacking bike. loving it. Would switch to a 39/26 for loaded touring.
Great video Russ.
Regarding your frustration with multi wheel size bikes. I have been thinking a bit about this, and will share my thoughts.
Maybe the problem is that the bike industry tries to sell bikes as being able to run a too wide range in both wheel sizes. A multi wheel size bike should either run 700c gravel tires in the 45mm range or 650b/27.5” tires in the 2.35” range. That would only change the bb height around 5 mm (also the tire radius). That is the same difference you get from switching between 40mm and 45mm 700c tires. It seem to me that designing such a bike is possible without compromising the geometry.
The problem I see with such an approach is that the bike might be a hard sell, it would not be recommended to run the hugely popular 650bx47mm tires. However the primary reason why I am drawn to a multi wheel size bike, is the the ability to run MTB tires, and the huge clearance is perfect for that, I do not care that much about the 650bx47mm tires. Others might have different priorities.
There are bikes that are able to accommodate such a huge tire range, Bearclaw Bicycle Co. Thunderhawk and All-City Gorilla Monsoon for example. Maybe Bearclaw and All-City gets it and the rest of the industry don´t ;-)
IMO only cyclists looking to maintain a specific cadence need plenty of gears to choose from. Personally, I like 2x drivetrains with 8-10 speeds with a wide range is perfectly fine.
Still not tempted by 1x but getting close. Most important point is to get a smallest cog of 10 not 11 so you can get a smaller chain ring say 42, with a 10/42 so fast enough with the 10 and also easy enough with a 42. So equivalent to a 46/30 and 11/30.
Canyon sell their Grail with Force 1x with a 10/46 and 42 chainring, so as good as it gets. The RD will also take a 46 cassette for steeper hills.
9t cassettes are available as well....
Agree on sprinting. I just don't care because well for me I can barely use it, it only comes in handy on downhills on easy roads. I care about the speeds I can maintain "indefinitely". So low low gears for up hill and "not that fast" gears for flats.
Great video, lots of real smarties in the comments as well. Super helpful. Still, switching to 24 -36 One speed - never spill another Manhattan.
A bit off topic, but...could you talk about some good ways of finding gravel biking routes in a persons local area? Like mapping apps, etc. 'm interested in finding those 'paths less pedaled.' Thanks!!!
50,40,30 Campag triple matched to a 10 speed 13-29 cassette. I'd like to go lower, but Campagnolo doesn't really support bike tourists! However, the cassettes are only £30 and much lighter than these monster cassettes.
the challenge I have been told is the drop bar shifters do not always work with MTN groups......would love to know
9speed for easier life 😂
Like the graphs. You are right...you and Henry Wildberry show that there is other types of cycling. GCN do's a good show for the racing side. But I would still use the brommie for touring around England. Thank you.
Update!!!
just went from a 50 big to 46/34 with 11 to 34 cassette so thrilled. Actually now swapped out the 50/34 for a 46/32 with a 11/34 cassette. I feel this is way more appropriate for my road light gravel riding with many hills some very steep I do here in PA Land...For More Info...FSA Omega cranks with a 10 speed Tiagra GS long cage derailleur. So far no issues and I didnt even have to shorten the chain just tighten the B screw...Also the front derailleur is a Braze on...I hope this help someone because wondering if this all works is a pain to find out....
When you used the pizza analogy on the 50 tooth(!) pizza cassette I immediately thought of the Yogi Berra (ask your dad or grandfather if the name doesn't ring a bell) quote when asked if he wanted his pizza cut into 6 or 8 pieces..."you better cut it into 6, I don't think I can eat 8" 🤣🤣🤣. Getting serious the comment by jogbird regarding cadence is very important. Cassettes with big jumps, like the 1X, often leave me either spinning too fast or grinding too low. Spinning at the right cadence, even if it involves double shifting, is more efficient and much less tiring over a long day and that is worth a lot. Doubles or triples have some close gearing overlap but not exact overlap so that the small differences can have a comfort effect....increased supple? Top end speed, aside from racing, is pretty pointless. When did you ever go for a ride or tour and wished you had more top end (downhill?...coast and recover). I think the argument about 1X being "less complicated" is specious, rear derailleurs are more prone to damage and when was the last time you heard a story about a broken front mech? Perhaps the most robust drivetrains are Rohloff (15 speed) or pinion (18 speed) with no overlap, super wide range, good low end and robust as can be. One can discuss this topic forever.....and always will.
Love my 24/34/46 and 26/36/48 9 Speed XTR cranks. Do Wish Shimano made the new GRX double with a 46/28. Pair that with an 11-40 and you'd have a hell of a set-up
Just extended the GRX 800 RD with a 11-46 cassette and a GRX 48/31 thats 18.4 gear inch to 120….all it needed was a wolf lint! I think it will fit a 11-51 and know someone running just that in the Di2 version, thats 16.8 GI on the low side!!
To bad it all Greek to me I have a 3×7 (21) speed 800 Mountain Trek works for me
Just built a carbon mt. bike "monstercross" bikepacker using 27.5 wheels. 36-26 with 10-42 cassette 11 speed gives 17-97 gear inches- that'll do!
I'm also going to set up an alternate narrower wheelset- 1x gearing with a shimano cassette- 40 front, 11/42 11 spd back. with a 27.5 38mm tire... 25-95 gear inches for more pavement oriented rides.
Russ, what is your favorite bike, the bike you currently own that you've logged the most miles riding?
Ah. Geez. Just sold a bunch of bikes which have a lot of miles (Vaya, Warbird, Spacehorse). Of those the Vaya. Currently, the VO Polyvalent has taken the place of the Vaya and I'm digging it.
I have a 38/24 and 11-34 on my Clem Smith. Works great for mixed terrain for me.
50/40/30 and no worries about terrain on tarmac, gravel or dirt. The dude is right: no further innovations are needed.
Yes. I had that on one of my bikes and it gave you great range without sacrificing spacing.
@@pauldenali6367 Same for me: 3 by X for an adventure (aka gravel and beyond) bike. Very glad I didn't opted for 2 by Y or 1 by Z :) . All other setups are for optimization to the specific purpose. Those purposes might include PR on Dirty Kanza, but require another optimization for Land Run or some other event that, for example, uses single traks. Moreover, for tarmac/hradpack with undulating hills one with 1 by N might cry loud for a larger chainring whilst being dropped by happy enthusiasts of 3 by X :) .
Low gearing all the way 🙂
11-46, 30t chainring.
Bike is a full sus 120mm 27.5 mtb setup for bikepacking (extra supple!).
This is the most practical and informative gearing overview I've heard - nice job!
What do you think abt thumbshifters for bikepacking/touring bikes? I've lately been obssessing abt shifters for my Jones loop bar. I wonder if thumbies actually offer superior practicality and longevity to modern MTB shifters, which some say are reliable enough for any type of touring and have the andvantage of being easy to use. I want to order Sunrace thumbies, which can also be used to mount barend shifters to flat bars (cheaper alternative to Paul thumbies)
Thumbies are great. Laura has a pair of Pauls on her bike and they've been problem free over multiple rear derailleurs for the last 7 years.
Newbie here. As a follow up video, could you talk more about the 46/30 36t combo? Being your personal favorite, what are some brands or configurations you would use? I'm still choosing the specs for a new bike build so this information would be very handy.
FSA makes a budget 46/30. Praxis might also make one. Personally I feel like 46/30 is good for heavy loaded riding on 32 or maybe 35c. Wider tires (on 700c) might need a mountain double. 48/32 is another more popular size that more brands are starting to make (like fsa and praxis). Its definitively faster than most people need on 700c but maybe a better option for 650b riders with only light loads and commuting needs. Personally I still love triples and my 48/36/26 is great with a 12-36. The 12-36 takes the top end down just a bit but helps distribute the gearing across the middle of the cassette for a tighter cluster.
ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=26,36,48&RZ=12,13,15,17,19,22,25,28,32,36&UF=2185&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=speed&GR2=DERS&KB2=30,46&RZ2=11,13,15,17,19,21,24,28,32,36&UF2=2185
Raceman95 Thanks for your reply. Will look into those brands and keep taking notes to choose right in the end.
Hey man! Great content! How do you feel about trailers for cargo commutes, touring, pets, etc?
42/32 and 10-42 cassette is all you will ever need unless you’re a road racer
which cassette is that.....does it fit on a standard type 11sp hub? Thanks
We also need cassettes that start at 14T sprockets instead of 11. Even with a 46/30 crank, I don't need those small cogs and a tight pattern on a 14-36 would be great.
Yay!!! Shimano's new GRX 400 is stock with a 46/30 chainset!!! And they are making it compatible with both road and MTB cassettes! AND!!!!! they have hydraulic auxiliary levers!
Sure took them ages to come out with it - maybe the directors and planners need to do some real cycling - i mean outside of the company car parks.
What are peoples views on the Sram Apex 1 groupset that comes with a 40 tooth chainset and 42 cassette. Would that give a comparable low end to say a 30 tooth chainring on a triple, with a 32 cassette, or would there be a loss of hill climbing gears? The reason that I ask is because I am thinking of getting an adventure/gravel bike with this system that would be used for a lot of a normal tarmac use and the lower end would be vital for me, but I won't get to try the bike in person first. Any help would be appreciated on this.
Mountain double works well for me! I’m not fast but I like to be able to climb. Thanks for the great video Russ!
I love this video and am glad you were able to talk about your crank preferences more. I use a 50/34 and a 11-42 and have really enjoyed it for long days (7+ hours) off road. The shimano 2x mtb gears look like the perfect solution with a wolftooth cable pull adjuster. You could get a 10-46 cassette and a 50/34 and have a massive gear range and really crisp shifting.
Great video Russ, but I have a couple of things to add:
1) Range is important but so is cadence, which means you should put some focus on jumps between gears and not just the lowest and highest ones.
2) I like using gear-calculator.com/ for such comparisons since it shows jumps between gears well.
3) I agree that triples are old-fashioned and there's little chance they will come back. One of the reason, as you mentioned, is tire clearance and we tend to ride fatter tires now. I find 2x10 or 2x11 perfect for most situations. The 1x setups would be great once we somehow solve chainline problems and have more 12-speed cassette options.
4) Regarding the question whether to go 1x11 or stay with 2x10 or 2x11, it's good to keep in mind that jumps between gears with 2x10 setup could be quite small, while with 1x11 they will be huge. I thought about switching myself but to have about the same jumps as with my old 2x10 gearing, I would have to move to 1x13, which basically doesn't exist in the range I want.
5) That also answers to some degree how many gears you need. Another factor to consider is technology in newer shifters. When I switched from 2x10 to 2x11 I was surprised how much better the newer shifters (Shimano 105) shifted (better precision, response, etc.)
I'm running 2x11 now, with 42/26T crankset and a 11-32T cassette. Works well in 99% of situations.
I just went from a 50 big to 46/34 with 11 to 34 cassette so thrilled. The 50 was so overkill for where I live in PA very hilly!!!!! I dont care about going fast I care about going Fun.....50/34 came stock on a Cannondale Synapse I just picked up...
I live in PA as well. I really want the 2021 checkpoint with the shimano grx 42 30 gear set but can’t seem to get one. I did find a 2021 Cervelo Aspero grx 1 but it’s a 1x crank. Was just wondering if that is enough gearing
One would have trouble finding a rear derailleur with enough capacity to work with a 48-36-24 and a 12-36. That combination is a capacity of 48. A Shimano Deore rd m591 is rated at 45, but will do 47. It won’t do 48. Get a 46-36-24 to go with that 12-36. If you have a 48-36-24, you can, with that m591 you can use a 11-34 in back.
Isn't that what those Roadlinks are meant to solve?
@@PathLessPedaledTV No. Roadlinks allow you to fit a lower gear by lowering jockey wheels to fit under the bigger cog. It does not increase the capacity of the derailleur which would require a longer cage to take up more chain slack. Roadlinks are relying on Shimano significantly understating the actual capacity of their derailleurs to work.
This was delightfully nerdy. The graph was awesome. Also, just got my Further patches. Can’t wait to spread them across Canada. Thanks Russ!
I disagree with the number of speeds not mattering. It depends where and how you ride. I use a 42/28 with a 11-32 road cassette. I need a 1T jump at the small end of the cassette, for cadence purposes. I can't stand the 2T jumps on the small end. Offroad, it's fine if handling steeper terrain, but flatter stuff, the MTB cassettes don't work for me.
We toured with a 6spd Brompton so everything feels like a luxury after that.
Shimano GRX 48/31 with a SRAM 11-36 cassette
I decided to get myself a gravel/commute/touring bike. I've been cycling all my life, road-racing, touring, commuting. I discussed what I wanted with the bike mechanics at the shop I go to, and after some persuasion they finally convinced me (after listening to the types of riding I do) to go for an ultegra set-up compact front chain-ring and an 11-speed 11-32 on the rear. OMG I hated it. So I switched it out for an XT 48-36-24 chain-ring (which is what I thought would be best originally)(I also had to switch the shifters) and kept the 11-32 on the back. MUCH much much better. I really don't get this obsession with 2-by or even 1-by chain-rings. Why the feck do you want to torture yourself. And yes you *can* get a bigger spread of gear development with a huge rear cassette, but you end up with ridiculous jumps in gear development which in some situations will bring you to a dead stop because of the sudden change in cadence. Anyway, I'm much much happier with my triple chain-ring.
Mirrors - yes, mirrors!! I was hit by a car a few years ago (100% drivers fault). I suffered a lot of injuries, one of which was a broken and crushed vertebra. When I eventually got back on the bike I wasn't able to turn around properly to see behind me. So I had to get myself mirrors and holy cow they're fecking brilliant ! Even though nowadays I can turn around to see behind me if I want to to, the mirrors are far more useful in many situations (on roads with car traffic). I now recommend all my cycling friends to get mirrors.
Rei co-op adv 3:2, 650b x 50 . 10spd , 11x36, 28 &44 crank.. changed to shamano 9032, 22 32 40, x180mm crank. 5ft8.5 " 78 yrs old . Love it. Don't compete,with shorter cranks. Years past, spent 7 days and nights riding in rain ,in southern b.c.canada. had low grade prostrate infection & internal yeast infection. Was running 34 cassette & mountain taimer quad crank. 48 ,36 ,38 ,18. Learned my lesson !! I can coast down 👇 without any effort, going up , takes efficient effort. I haven't pushed ,yet. Saved my life!!! Taken routes, many would not dare. P.s. I live to climb, it's keeping me alive 😂💪!!!! Great program !! Don't be afraid to think & and try outside the box
I am just after my first test ride of road/MTB combo 3x9 -- crankset 44/32/22 (range 200%) with cassette 12-26. Such cassette (~110% stepping) give you such smooth shifting... amazing. So far the the only downside is you need FD cable converter (JTek Shiftmate) so the price of the setup goes a bit up. But for now I would say it was worth it and I only wonder if I could hack this crankset a bit (violating Shimano advice) into 46/34/22 -- this would be a killer :-).
In my young days I rode a 52/39 x 13-21 in the hills of central PA. My present day bike a Canyon Pathlite AL 6.0 has the new Deore XT group that includes a 36/26 X 10-45 cassette. That's realistic for a guy in his 60's riding in the mountainous terrain of Idaho. The high gears keep me going on the pavement and the 26/45 gear is good for the gravelly 12% grades. I looked at gravel bikes and most don't have a reasonable low gear. Mountain bikes with 1x drivetrains don't have a reasonable high gear.
36/22 crank and 9-speed 11/36 cassette on my Disc Trucker. Fully loaded, I can practically climb a wall with that gearing. And when did 9-speed become retro? :-)
Scott Lynch I run a Sora R3000 group with RD-M4000 Alivo derailleur to handle 36T 👌
@@joramvandervorst7715 Agreed! 9-speed is so easy to setup and adjust on the road/trail.
@Robert Trageser That sounds like a fantastic setup! Agree with everything you said. I should of mentioned, those 9-speed shifters I'm running are friction/indexed bar ends as well (on Paul's Thumbies). There have been a few times when I haven't been happy with the indexed shifting so I'll click over to friction on the fly. I love the ability to do that and I'll just worry about derailleur/cable adjustment when I get home. I won't ride with anything but friction/index shifters!
a 48/32 with a 11-40 cassette in the back works for me on any terrain, any time
what groupset do you use? what deraileur and crankset
@@lemon_orb I use Shimano XT 11-40 cassette with an XT deraillleur with a Wolf Tooth Tanpan in the back, and Absolute Black oval rings in the front
I started out on triple set chain rings with 8,9,10 cassettes but over the 35+years I’ve noticed seldom do I get into speeds of over 25km/hr while loaded. My knees and Achilles’ tendons can’t stand that let alone keeping my loaded bike stable at such speeds. I’ve been reducing my top end more to concentrate on hill climbing ease more. Many bike manufacturers were always presenting speed as the thing to concentrate on, that was crap as I found out. I will be soon switching to a gravel bike but I want at least one gear range below 20 gear inches for hill climbing and I still seem to get that stunned look from bike shops when I request that, what not go faster? No I’m not racing, I’m touring and the world isn’t flat!
I live in a fierce hilly area. I run 46-34t crankset and 11 speed 11-42t deore cassette on my flat handlebar urban bike. Never miss the 1x 40t setup (with the same cassette) I had before.
50/34 x 11/32 for fast rolling trails and... 42/28 x 11/42 on my monstercross for the extreme % I can find here in the French Pyrennees. Please brands, consider a 46/30 offering!
3x9 48/38/28 11-40t
Easy to get that combination here, if easy to get 44/28 crank maybe i'll swap 😁
1x is the fucking worst. Unless you ride 100% on flat, paved bike paths. 1x means you lose low end, or high end, or BOTH... AND, it forces massive jumps between gears. Which is just the absolute worst. Nothing worse then being on a long climb and being FORCED to either spin to fast, or grind to slow... Get a 2x... Don't belive the 1x marketing hype.
I believed that until recently.
@@PathLessPedaledTV So you've recently committed to just riding on level bike paths? Good for you...
Well I’ve been doing (mostly road) mixed-terrain rides on an old FW Evans touring bike with a 52/42/32 triple and a 12-28 9spd cassette but I guess I’m an idiot
I've tested a couple of 38/28 crankset double mtb's recently with 11-36 cassettes.
I was astounded at how much worse they were than my Surly running a 24/32/42 triple with an 11-34 cassette.
Such lack of instant correct ratios.
42-26 ftw.
I am converting my 25yrs old mountain bike to an ebike. This vid really help with gearing, Thank you.
You forgot a very expensive but amazing option the 14 speed Rholoff. Every gear has the same jump so nice cadence and 600% range straight chain line and you can run a 1/8 chain also no dish in your rear wheel.
Yeah. Beyond my pay grade. Would like to review one so I can actually talk about it from first hand experience.
Path Less Pedaled yeah they are not cheap just priced one out here in Canada $1800 just for the hub but can't wait to have one on my next build my riding off in the sunset bike :-)
@Robert Trageser The only service needed is an oil change every 5000KMs which is super simple to do. Because its a sealed drive system and the gears are constantly in and oil bath very very few failures. If they do fail (and its a big IF) you send it to the company and they send you a new one they are amazing like that! And when you convert to an Rholoff you get rid of extra chain rings, the cassette, the freehub, less chain and front and rear mech, works out to about 160-180G difference so I would not call it heavy. Plus it's at the centre of your wheel to it's not like its rotational weight but the pros are amazing straight chain line, can change gears when stopped, can use a 1/8 chain so less chance of breaking if you use a carbon belt even smoother and quieter and stronger no dish in your rear wheel and a constant 13 degree jump between gears nice and smooth like butter and a nice clean look. It is a $1500 hub so that can price people out. But as long as you are out there enjoying two wheels and you are having fun does not really matter in the end! Have a great day!
@Robert Trageser LOL you felt 180G then you need to get stronger legs!!
@Robert Trageser oh and PS if you want to keep your bike foolproof dont get a Sturmey especially if you have it laced to an Alexrim....
If it's muddy at all, 1X all day! If it's dry 2X.
Regarding the rotating mass thing: I'd like to point out that it's not just about the mass but also about how far away the mass is from the axis of rotation. Saving mass on your hub while keeping everything else the same will not make your wheelset any snappier. It will just make your bike lighter overall which will of course still help a little while pedaling it up hill.
"voice of sanity" thank you... lower gears, wider bike shoes, alt bars, it's all good
What do you think about 52/36 and 11-46 cogs? Is it overkill? Thanks
Wouldn't it be best to have just one touring bicycle that can handle fat (at least 3.0") tires and have enough gear ranges for touring expeditions (as low as 25 gear inches) and high speed road riding (35+mph)? Can you also make a video on building such a bicycle?
That bike would do nothing well. The geometry necessary for a 3.0 tire would negate the geometry for a high speed road riding bike.
@@PathLessPedaledTV The Salsa Fargo Framset size small upward can accommodate 29 x 2.4" with fenders and 29 X 3.0" without fenders. Do you think the geometry of this frame is good enough for high speed road riding?
Great video! Good choice of example tyre size because it is the same as 650x48. For larger 700c tyres the gears are a bit harder.
Been using 40/28 MTB double with 11-32 for everything from light touring to pretty quick 31kph average rides. On the faster downhills I just tuck in. Stuck a 36 tooth expander on for Japanese Odyssey...although loaded much lighyt than my light tour the climbing was relentless for 10 days: my legs thanked me.
I feel 46-30 would be perfect...really hope Shimano release something this year as there is a gap for 24mm spindle, reasonably light, reasonably priced chainset.
PaRtYpAcE ratio ?: for Seattle/PNW, if 38t x 11-42 was too fast, is 36t enough or should I try to source a 34t? I’ve got the 9-42 11-speed e-Thirteen cassette on there so not too worried about spinning out.
40t x 42t = .95 ratio
38t = .90
36t = .86
34t = .81
I currently have a 50-34 chainset and 11-34 cassette and get by with it, with a bit of struggle on super steep offroad climbs. Definitely plan to switch to a 48-32 or 46-30 on the front with a custom 11-36 on the back at some point.
On topic of triples: They were necessary back when we had 8-speed tops, but nowadays you get more usable gears with a 2x11. Triples are just a hassle to shift and maintain, you can never use the full cassette with a chainring, just constant shifting the front to avoid chainrub.
I could see a use for them if you were after an INSANE gear range, but then again there's probably no rear derrailleur that could keep the chain tensioned for that ^^
Depends on your chainstay length. My triple setup on my gravel bike runs and shifts perfectly fine on every single gear combination, and it's a non-standard setup with custom ratios too.
I sometimes do have to tow a double baby trailer, do mountain climbs and loaded bike packing, but 90% of the time it's a road bike on a 25km per leg commute. It's a 9-speeds setup which means you can mix Shimano MTB rear mechs with road STI shifters. I paired an RD-M772-SGS long cage rear mech with Sora 3503 shifters.
Don’t some bikes have the clutch to keep tension
Where does shimanoAlfine 11 fare with 50t front and 24 rear cog
I just built a Otso Warakin gravel bike and put on a 46/30 crankset with a 40 tooth cassette using RX-800 derailleur and it works amazing. It was a big difference coming from my endurance road bike with 50/34 + 32 tooth cassette.
I did the same on my bombtrack. The range of a triple without all the repeated gearing.
Have you considered taking commissions for your water colors? I have a pretty vista by my house that needs someone to paint it.
::stares blankly:: Make it go!
Have an All City Gorilla Monsoon, 38T crank, 11-42 cassette. I;m 68, and a big guy. I struggle up hills - perhaps not the first one or two…but then I’m spent. What cassette etc., would you recommend that might help??
Did you get the road 50/34 & AXS 46/33 figures wrong? Seems if you dropped 4 cogs & used 90rpm, you'd be going slower with the AXS. Similarly a road 34 chainring to 34 cog wouldn't be the same as the AXS 33 to 34 cog
As I've gotten older, I find that I don't need those top gears as much. If I'm on a road where it is possible to go over 30 mph (like a nice downhill), then I'm not pedaling, I'm just enjoying the view as I coast down that hill. So even on my road bike I'm looking more for the lower gears. And yeah, on my gravel bike it's all about the low gears. Our gravel riding is on logging roads and some single-track, a lot of 10%+ inclines.
When switching over to a 10/50 or a 11/42 do you need a thinner chain and if you do what do you recommend? New to this and I'm willing to give it a try and see if it can work for me. Thank you for your quick reply and response
Generally speaking match the number of speeds in the cassette. 10 speed cassette. 10 speed chain, etc.,
2x sub compact without question - and it is not all about gear range it is about smooth cadence and the jumps on the cassette. For me personally 11-30 is about the biggest spread I want on an 11 speed. Personally I run 46x30 + 11 speed 11-30. I was running 46 x36 ie classic cross but it was just not quite enough on the low end. +1 on the mountain double, not so much in love with triples with modern chains, the shifting is really quite poor.
It's really personal. I have no problem with a 2x 11-36t 11 speed setup. Some people are sensitive to large gaps, some aren't. For me it's only an issue if riding in a group.
Check out the RearViz arm mounted rear view mirror. Available at Amazon:
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What about a 36-15 or 13 close ratio 10 speed cassette? The only downside I can think of is weight but surely that's minimal for the type of riding we're talking about here?
So. I just (like an hour ago) ordered a Velo Orange Campeur frame and headset. Frankly, this is really not my kind of bike, but it’s the build my brother was planning when he suddenly passed a few weeks ago.
I am considering - to use your term - “full-on SRAM.” 1x. 42 up front; a 10/42 in the back. That would seem to give me a pretty good range.
I am NOT a hard core self-supported tourer. I have a credit card and would use it. Does the gearing sound reasonable?
I should note that I am a novice mechanic. This will be a project. It will take a while. But the process is part of the process. I need to do Chris right.
Canti brakes. Quaint, right?
Depends on the terrain and your fitness. 42 is a pretty big chainring up front if you live in steep or mountainous terrain.
Path Less Pedaled I live in Memphis. It’s pretty flat here. Just a few bluffs and a bit of a rise as you cross the River.
My fitness level is fine for a 54-year-old. I knocked out 82 miles Saturday. Average speed of 16.1 mph ( a little faster than my usual).
Thanks for your help. I am trying to feel this out. This is my first full-on build.
I live in California so we have lots of hills. My front chainring is 44T and it's so high!
Which is better shimano or sunrace 11-40t? Thanks