Maybe note that this technique is useful for judging a corner, but should never be used to acutally try and push the limits just by applying this technique. You should only ever push towards the actual limits if you know the road well enough, that also includes things like surface on and off the track as well as conditions of course.
Super correct, the idea of limit point of view as you said is not go to the limit, it is to have enough time to brake for any hazard "you can stop on your own side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear’
I have a downhill with a lead in curve to the left (US road) as you begin the descent. Downhill about 110 meters then, still on the downhil begins a curve to the right leveling out and going then into a straight section. I can take it at about 50mph if I relax where my mind says I should slow...the mental trick of relaxing in perceived danger is important. However, I want to try for cornering st 60/65 mph and the relaxation there is no longer valid; and I don't know what to do to be able to safely handle the higher speed. Driving a passenger van, if that matters. Also, if I were to lose the road on the turn it would generally be only a vinyl pasture fence I would run into. There is a tree but I would have to panic or absolutely misjudge several things to end up there.
The limit point is strictly geometry related. The limit point will come towards you wenn you approach the corner, regardless at which speed you are approaching. So, it`s not really correct to just state: "if the limit point comes towards you, you are going too fast". The only way to make the limiting point not come towards you when approaching the corner is to make a full stop :) That's why I think additional info is needed here. Something like what is a safe distance to a limit point for a given speed.. For example, you are doing 80, and the limit point is 50 meters away and still getting closer would mean that you are too fast...
Quite right. You took the words out of my mouth. The technique is good for informing how the bend is developing, but this is, indeed, independent of speed.
As a driving instructor the fundamental point missing here is that to drive safely you should always be able to stop easily in the distance that you can see, i.e. the limit point. The limit point should be used to judge that and speed adjusted accordingly. Another point missed is that the limit point on a right hand bend, if driving on the left, is ,as stated the point where the 2 verges meet. However on a left hand bend it is the left verge and the centre of the road as this is the closest point of obstruction going in that direction.
Your technique works well, but you should also keep in mind about being able to stop within the distance you can see its clear. A question I always asked my pupils was, “What’s round the corner,” usually answer was, “I don’t know.” That is why you should only drive at a speed that you can stop within the distance you can see.
And not just obstructed road sight lines, there are weather induced obstructions fog/rain/snow (maybe also blown sand or leaves) to consider as well and that originate your rule "only drive at a speed that you can stop within the distance you can [clearly] see".
@@Don.Challenger Or as Jack Burton always says, "I never drive faster than I can see and; and besides, It's all in the reflexes." (from 'Big Trouble in Little China' ;))
At all times the driver should drive at a speed that would allow them to stop *IN THE ROAD SPACE THEY CAN SEE IS CLEAR* and this technique changes nothing in that regard.
I use this technique and it is very useful. Since I was taught it a while back it has 100% made me a better driver. I do however fully agree about "defensive" driving, as my own personality flaws make me naturally speed up when looking so far ahead, and not just drive fast but actually start to seek the cars limit (subconsciously I may want the road to be clear, I don't know). If it's a sunny Sunday then I approach EVERY corner as if there is a cyclist or horse on the otherside...and on the back-roads of Yorkshire, there usually is!
That's something fast drivers never seem to care about. They will follow all the rules except the speed limit, stay on their side of the lane and shoot out of a corner but if someone else is taking that corner wide then it's a bad accident and they would most definitely blame the other guy. 🤷
The 'ideal speed' is the speed in which you could bring your vehicle to a complete stop if there was a hidden hazard. You have GOT to assume that on every bend there is a broken down car or a cyclist laying in the road. Could you stop? Could you stop without drifting out of the bend toward oncoming traffic? In my view, your speeds were (based on what I just said) a little too fast, but it's hard to tell on a video.
I think he was going a bit too fast on the blind left bends but could have gone way faster on most of the right bends with better visibility. On the normal backroads I drive quickly on I usually slow down to about 20 mph for the blind corners unless it's extremely right then a bit slower.
I once came around a corner on a bigger road than this, a road I travelled at 90mph 10 times a day for years. One day there was a dustbin lorry mid corner, reversing back toward me. Brown trouser moment. It was full stig Blomquist around him. Luckily nothing coming opposite way.
I was always taught to drive in a manner in which I could stop if anything unexpected was seen in the road. Used through corners this ensures a safe speed and covers all your driving.
Interesting that you mentioned learning this when riding a motorcycle. I've both ridden bikes and driven cars for decades and this 'technique' has always been my instinctive way of reading the road, without ever having formalised it into a technique. Maybe that's something that riding instills very early. My worst 'bend' experience was entering a sharp right hander at the exact same moment that a large RV coming in the opposite direction misjudged their entry and strayed across into my path. Correcting my line to avoid, right at the bend's apex, totally threw the car's balance and demonstrated why traction control can sometimes be very useful.
Wet leaves, gravel, cars coming onto the road from say a farm, Amish riding a horse drawn carriage, an accident in the corner, a car making a turn in a corner to get onto a side road,in the middle of nowhere a car coming across the road to go to a roadside stand or whatever piques their interest (I found myself on a car hood after the guy saw and wanted to stop at a roadside telephone booth. That's all he was thinking about.),... When I wanted to drive or ride safe I drove only fast enough that I could stop before the furthest point in my vision.
@@SportsIncorporated Well, yes, driving or riding a motorcycle is certainly also about managing the myriad of random events and circumstances you'll encounter every time you go out. And you're right, that list of hazards is extensive and your ability to survive relies above all on anticipation and reaction.
Road craft does not teach apex driving (the racing line) It talks more about position of vehicle for the view. Using observation and vanishing point you can still drive double bends
@@allongshanks940 yes you're right in what you say. Sorry if you misconstrued what I meant, sometimes a bend which you think you've sorted by limit point analysis tightens up into a 'double apex' - I was just saying, always expect the unexpected!
Yes, this technique is very good and very well shown. Only trouble is, as illustrated at 3:28 when the blind bend switches to a much tighter corner. Harder braking is required in a short distance, including as demonstrated through to the apex, thus upsetting the balance of the car. Pays to know the road or otherwise approach with much more caution. With a rear wheel drive car, I’d much rather approach the corner slower and then accelerate out using the oversteering effect. I often find I make better progress in this way.
You shouldn't be anywhere close to 'upsetting the balance of the car' or 'oversteering' on public roads. Go to a track if you want to drive like a twat
*Yes, this technique is very good and very well-shown. Only trouble is, as illustrated at 3:28 when the blind bend switches to a much tighter corner: Harder braking is required in a short distance, including as demonstrated, through to the apex, thus upsetting the balance of the car. Pays to know the road, or otherwise approach with much more caution. With a rear-wheel drive car, I’d much rather approach the corner slower and then accelerate out using the oversteering effect. I often find I make better progress in this way.
A historical problem, and one that still affects some old roads, is where they were designed and built in the heydays of railways, which have a very different view of the onset of cornering (the track takes care of the steady tightening of their bends). Such 'railway roads' don't match the human eye expectations and folks can fly off the corners as they tighten up, where the railway would be quite happy. If I remember correctly it was a traffic engineer in Aberdeenshire (Scotland, UK) that highlighted the issue (around the time of WW1-2, long ago). Nearly all roads now follow modern design norms.
I am almost seventy now, I got taught that technique at around age fifteen. I have never forgotten that lesson. I still ride motorcycles, targa rally my E46 M3 and drive refrigerated B trains part time. I very very rarely get caught out, but some of the roads in New Zealand are a little unpredictable sometimes, especially after cyclone Gabriel last Christmas
New Zealand roads certainly keep you on your toes. haha. Have had many friends visit from overseas and comment on how intimidating country road driving here can be. Just seemed normal to me until driving overseas on lots of straight, flat, orderly roads.
Excellent video. You illustrated how my father taught my brother and I to drive. He raced formula vee in the late 60’s and off road in the early 70's. My father said "Never drive faster than you can see."
Sound advice as it forces you to look all the way up the road, something many fail to do. Been riding powerful bikes for nearly 50 years and this is a technique I’ve used for as long as I can remember on roads I don’t know. Applied well, and it does take practice until it becomes automatic, means you will always be in the right position in the right gear at the right speed without needing to adjust late. Fast & smooth 👍
This is good but the problem with focussing on the limit point when the road is bending to the left is that you're optimising for speed to take the corner but not for the possibility that there is something around the (blind) corner you can't see. My approach is to ensure that my stopping distance is smaller than the distance I can see in that scenario.
Great tip.👍🏻 I have been driving for 48 years and had many cars that have been extra fast over that period. I tend to drive quite hard when there are no dangers and have never had an accident or insurance claim. I can honestly say, the three times I nearly came to grief all occurred when I was driving at the speed limit and being too laid back. Intense focus and awareness is crucial when driving hard and one tends to not lose attention. A lot of people drive familiar routes routinely in robot mode,away with the fairies I might add, there is bo speed limit on the open road on the IOM, just in case anyone gets judgemental 😉
*Great tip. 👍🏻. I have been driving for 48 years and had many cars that have been extra fast over that period. I tend to drive quite hard when there are no dangers and have never had an accident or insurance claim. I can honestly say, the three times I nearly came to grief all occurred when I was driving at the speed limit and being too laid back. Intense focus and awareness is crucial when driving hard, and one tends to lose attention. A lot of people drive familiar routes routinely in robot mode (away with the fairies, I might add). There is no speed limit on the open road on the IOM, just in case anyone gets judgemental. 😉. What's the IOM? When I look for it with a search engine, I get returned, 'Internantional Organization for Migration'. Are you in fact referring to a roadway or roadway system?
You must be a amazing driver,, or a amazingly great driver never to have had a accident, even the greatest driver's in the world have had accidents, accidents are unfortunate but you do learn from them, I'm certainly not saying to crash deliberately either 😂..interesting comment thanks that gave me a genuine chuckle.😂
This technique, while helping make bends faster and smoother, is actually taught in the IAM as more of a safety measure to begin with. The idea of the limit point is to always be able to stop before you get to it. That way, if there is a car broken down just round the corner, or a big pothole that you can’t avoid (a bigger concern for motorcyclists than drivers), or even someone/something on the road, you will be able to stop. The limit point is always active, and is particularly useful in busy towns too.
Fantastic tip! just tested it out in some freeroam maps in asseto and a few tracks and works great! I'm still a relatively new driver and tips like these are just splendid. Please share more!
I have driven close to 480,000 miles in my last 26 years of working at a government mountaintop military ICBM tracking site, that I drove to, every day, excluding weekends. It took over 4 hours for a round trip on each of those days of travel. I STILL learned something NEW here, by your 'formula'.....and I consider myself an EXCELLENT driver!! Thanks!! Great point to follow! Thanks!!
I was taught something very similar to this about 20 years ago, it was described to me as looking into the furthest corner and you can see the speed in this way. Also it gives you great road position
Was taught this over 25 years ago by my driving instructor. He was an advanced driving instructor with ROSPA gold. Has served me well on roads that i am not familiar with.
Observation and anticipation. Treat everyone on the road as though they want to kill you. When seeing a car ahead wanting to pull out of their junction, watch their wheels. Even a move forward of a few inches shows up on the wheels (this once saved my life). On bends, look at the paintwork of the cars coming the other way, their reflection will show brake lights. Give the car in front plenty of room - they may be texting! Be accommodating to others, but don't stop to let someone out of a junction. Never get out of your car in a road rage situation. ALWAYS only drive as fast as the distance at which you can stop in. Passing my test was the greatest day of my life...47 years ago. Driving is something I do better than anything else - because it's a skill which you build. Have a great life.
Just stumbled upon this, and I've also seen the video referenced here. As a motorcyclist, I had the same thought while watching the other video. I'm of the opinion that drivers, of virtually anything, can improve their skill set by learning motorcycling technique. Even having been professionally trained, and licensed, to drive everything from an automobile to a multi-unit heavy vehicle combination, nothing improved my roadcraft like becoming a trained motorcyclist. Even if one has zero interest in becoming a motorcyclist, I'd recommend reading books on riding techniques and practicing them while behind the wheel.
I wholeheartedly agree. In a similar fashion, I felt a surprising improvement in my urban driving skill after I started using a single-speed bicycle (always had multi-speed ones before).
The algorithm was slow to show you something you already knew Mick 😂 Thanks for stopping by and commenting though. Keep up your excellent content, I watch regularly. And welcome to the BMW club 😊
I learned this in a motorcycle riding course, it's useful for driving as well. Keep your vision focused on the farthest point of the road you can see and trust your peripheral vision to keep track of nearby vehicles.
I played live for speed, for more than 10 years, but only last year somehow I tried to turn the apex of the wheel to follow the curve ( some personal bs theories ) when I realized this imaginary point and driving become so smooth, and speed management become amazing... I didn't know what was going on, and at times I managed to follow this point at times I simply forgot.. but had no idea how it is called up to now... thanks...
The position of the vanishing point depends on your position, not on your speed, so it's pretty unusable to judge your speed. You see the same vanishing point if you are going 20 km/h or 200.
Wish Id seen this a few weeks ago and shared it with my wife. Shes currently recovering from an car accident after taking a corner too quickly. Passing it on to my daughters too. Thanks for posting.
I never had any formal 'professional' driving instruction outside of a MSF course and track day briefs. However, as I started driving over 2 decades ago, did a few track days, auto-x, computer sims, I discovered the vanishing point technique and always summarized it for street-driving as "never drive faster than you can see", or "never drive faster than you can stop". This means that even if I know the road, and I can very confidently take this corner at 50mph, but i can only see my stopping point if I were driving 30mph, I only drive 30mph because I can't see 50mph worth of stopping distance in front of me. This comes down to understanding your vehicle and your ability. I wish everyone could do an Auto-x or track day, and have the understanding to apply it to their every day driving. As I have gotten older I have also realized that a lot of street driving is unpredictable, and having to always be on edge increases your stress levels which can be bad for your decision making and overall mental/physical health. So just take it easy on streets. If everyone did this, there would be far fewer accidents, less slow-downs and I believe our society as a whole would be less toxic.
I’m sure I was taught this concept forever ago when cars were still powered and stopped by our feet, Fred Flintstone was my instructor. In addition to the speed at the bend he made sure I understood how important speed control was when approaching anything; a curve, stop, crosswalk, on-ramp… At about 2:45 when a vehicle was ahead, obstructing a long distance view, Fred may have said I was getting too close b/c I should have time to stop for the obstacles in the path of the vehicle in front of me (wow, that idea is very difficult for me to put into words.) Fred also had some good tips like - Use the speed of the vehicles around to Help determine an appropriate speed - there’s no sense in rushing up behind a gravel truck or into a speed trap. Two hands on the wheel at all times - prayers said, 8track should be in, lights/heat/wipers/seatbelts on, drink finished before the car is rolling. It was long before on-wheel controls and cup holders. ‘When you expect the other driver to do something stupid you are twice as safe.’ From an instructor almost half a century ago
What also helps is looking into the bend at where you want to end up, especially important on a Motorbike, and I believe works the same in a car, i.e. where you look is where the bike/car will go
Also called target fixation. Where you look is where you go 100% of the time. If you look at the opposite kerb, verge, hedges, pedestrians, or just too short distance in front then that will be your crash point. Look into future, so well past the corner exit and you'll avoid this.
Totally agree, Sean. If you look at the inside of the curve, you will stay on the inside. If you look at the outside, where you want to avoid, you'll go there. Always look where you want to go, not at what you want to avoid.
I wasn’t taught what you say. When the « limit point » comes closer, it means the curve is tightening and went it gets further away, the turn is straightening. But it will do so at whatever speed you are approaching a corner for the simple reason it has to do with geometry. Unless British roads are quantum
This is learned intuitively when driving heavy trucks, which are not the least bit shy of proving the driver wrong. I have used this with everything from semi tractor trailers to my Porsche 968. It is hardwired behavior for me, like knowing when to surface for air while swimming.
Never did anything like a big rig, but even vans or trucks without requiring special certs take longer to stop. You have to think ahead of your braking distance. And in a lighter compact car lower to the ground one can get away with stuff you'd never consider reasonable in the van. And the bigger it is, the more steering out of the situation is affected too. I find it a bit crazy how some people are with certain vehicles before having enough time to really feel them out. (Which in my opinion is a week at minimum.)
It's kinda hard getting caught out going at the speed limits anyways. Now if you wanna go fast there is one rule above all, test run the road first to get a feel.
A couple of people have mentioned this but to reiterate. The best driver training I have ever done was motorbike training. The techniques can be applied to all situations. Cornering is one obvious example where vanishing point, using the width of the road and positioning can be used to some extent in all vehicles. You are taught to ride defensively and to improve observation and anticipation. Anyone would benefit from motorcycling training, it’s well worth reading the training materials to understand some of the techniques.
I also learned this when learning to ride motorbikes -- seems a common theme in the comments here too. I don't recall being taught it when learning to drive a car. Thanks for the video 👍👍🙂
That is good. I was taught always to look ahead and to track where the road went, which works really well for me. I never focus on anything nearby and automatically speed up or slow down as the tracking requires.
As has been mentioned below I don’t think you mention strongly enough - or even mention? - that you should be confident that you can stop within the limit point distance.
First thing an advanced driving instructor teaches you...known that since my teenage years, after we had a talk from one at a Young Farmers meeting...stuck with me!
I was also taught this technique in my motorcycling days and it is something I transferred to my driving, however as a keen mountain biker it’s a technique I have never really used in my biking for some reason - I’ll be employing from now on though!
Sorry but that explanation just did not work. "The point is coming towards us 'fast' so we are too fast' is way too vague. You could be doing 5mph and the point will be coming towards you. What *I* was told, also by a motorcycle instructor, still used the vanishing point but was basically *'"Adjust your speed so the braking distance is the same or lower than the distance to the vanishing point."* or to put it another way *"Never drive so fast that you cannot stop within the amount of road that you can see"*
I really dislike being behind people like that. Not because they're slow but because they're unpredictable - one never knows what imagined danger will get them slamming on their brakes. I drive 4-5 seconds behind any car (my "Zen garden") but I leave those bunnies an extra few seconds!
I agree, they are unpredictable I would also guess they do not bother to look in their mirrors, I like you keep well back, I recall on ice dent where I was doing about 27mph, looked in my mirror as I looked back the car in front had stopped for no reason and I had to stop fairly quickly, lucky I was far enough behind. @@unclemick-synths
Very nicely described. I was taught to always pay attention to the farthest possible point of the road I can see and plan how I'll get there and pass trough there. Pretty similar. Having said that, it was pretty unnerving watching you drive on the left side of the road, when I've always driven on the right.
I've been thinking about this, or I guess trying to do this instinctively, for basically my entire life-- running, skating, biking, driving-- but never seen anyone bother to describe it. Nicely done.
Hi my friend. Yes, I was taught 'the limit point' just before I passed the IAM test in my Volvo V70 some 20 years ago. It's a simple but very effective way to tackle bends on country roads. I was also encouraged to cut across bends (providing) I could see across them where there are no hedges, fences etc. I don't recommend it unless you have been with an advanced driving 'observer'! . . Later, I drove articulated trucks for Safeways, and they allowed me to 'borrow' an artic loaded with blue pallets for weight, so that I could take the IAM test in a heavy goods vehicle. I passed in a snowstorm on a March morning . . No police examiners in Kent at the time, and so a Police examiner from West London was kind enough to meet me at my depot in Aylesford to do the honours . . At 75, I'm retired now from HGV's but still enjoy taking out my little mx-5 around the lanes for fun . . .safely. Happy trails my friend!
This reminds me of my behavior when I'm in slow moving traffic. The queuing cars easily adopt an accordion type behavior, starting and stopping. I tend to adjust my speed to the average speed of the traffic so I see a growing and shrinking gap in front of me. This means that I have an car queue accordion in front of me and a snail behind me. If more people drove like this I believe people would get less frustrated from stopping repeatedly.
That’s a great reminder for using this technique. It is something that I was taught many years ago, but don’t always think about. I have recently used it when driving my Range Rover in Scotland and Caterham on track at Donington. Very different vehicles and situations, but a useful skill nonetheless. Thanks for posting this video.
I would have thought keeping your eyes on the road would be a useful safety instruction. We could hear you perfectly well when you were looking straight ahead. You didn't need to keep looking at the camera and taking your eyes off the road every few seconds.
Great for finding max safe speed to negotiate a bend but if you cant see around bend you must be able to stop within the distance you see to be clear. So you max speed will be governed by this and may well be much slower than just using limit point.
Whether the limit point is moving towards you or away has nothing to do with speed, you could be travelling at 5mph and the point will still be moving towards you when you approach. All it is showing is how tight the corner is relative to your current position in the corner.
A technique i was taught by my father for country roads was to observe the trees above the hedges and telegraph poles as they follow the roads and bends and will give you an idea of where the road is bending.
That very nearly brought me to grief once, when riding as a pillion with a person who said he knew the road we were about to take, but it became clear he did not as he did not start to slow for a 90 degree corner to the right on a country road. That is until I stared to smack his ribs! We were both very shaken up by the close call, and when I asked him why he didn't slow he said he'd forgotten about that corner (Yeah. Right. He was trying to impress me!) and he was following the power poles, which in that case marched across a paddock straight ahead! What made it more frightening was that he had been my motorcycle instructor when I was doing my P-Plates course.
If you care to glance at the line of the hedgerows and the trees either side of you, you'll notice that you can judge where the road is going from much, much further away than by simply looking for the vanishing point. You can see a tree from hundreds of yards away- it will always be on one side of the road. You can usually work out which side it is, and hence know how tight a bend is, long before you even know there's a bend there by any other method.
Especially at nightv- that is the only way to judge a corners direction by LOOKING AT THE TOP OF THE TREES TREE-LINE at night with your high beams on...
Pretty neat. I think I've been doing that naturally without really thinking about it (in both my car and motorcycle)... But it's very interesting to have it explained in detail and to be made consciously aware of it. Well done!
Another overlooked and simple technique is to leave early enough that you never "need" speed to achieve arrival at your destination within your desired time limits.
Well I never had it explained to me, but I do this naturally by simple experience. I could not have explained it or taught it to someone else. But, yes, once in the bend, you can accelerate your way of the bend.
Interesting. I think I now do this naturally, without realising it is a technique. I realise now of course having seen you "put it into words" as such, but I'm left pondering where in my experience I actually adopted it. On reflection now I just unconsciously continuously modify my speed according to this "rule" but I can't remember when I started to..........
Everyone does what he says naturally. What I did while driving fast on twisting roads is putting navigation on, a 1 sec glimpse at it will let you know if there are tight bends ahead, very efficient at night.
Great video explaining g the technique. I've been using this technique on the roads since learning to drive, a father who was a great driver explained to me a lot about speed into and exit of a corner, and using this technique, even driving at slower speeds, you can simulate fast road driving by perfecting your positioning during entry, tracking and exit. Thanks for the great vid
Interesting technique, but I have a question: in all the bends, the limit point will come towards you at any speed, even at very slow speeds, right? This doesn't necessarily mean you are going too fast.
So are you seeing the ‘limit point’ effectively as a potential stopping distance? This is the only way I can rationalise it. Once it starts to move away, brakes off and track. When it begins to open out, accelerate gradually into it. (Depending on conditions, traffic etc).
Here is another tip. When cresting a hill, if you check the utility pole tops on the other side of the hill, you may get an indication of a bend in the road that you won't see until you peak the crest. But don't assume it is a 100% method. Sometimes Utility poles will switch sides of the road, even right near the top of tbe hill.
What you failed to mention (unless I missed it) is that to use this method you need to keep the vanishing point at a fixed eye level/distance in front of you. And this distance can change constantly depending on your driving experience, the vehicles ability, the weather/road conditions & your familiarity with the road. Best to err on the safe side, do you believe you can you stop safely in the distance you can see in front of you?, yes?...good, no?...slow down!
The way I have thought about it, whether judging a corner, changing lanes, or turning into traffic, is this: 1: Be aware of what you can see. 2: Be aware of what you can't see. (i.e.: know where your blind spots are and what might be in them).
Thankyou for this reminder, the most interesting part of which was the concept of a BM driver that does it properly. (!) Bob, RoADA (gold), IAM (both, in car and PCV).
You described accurately what you are looking for but never what you should be doing as the conditions change. I could follow exactly what you said and be driving through a hairpin at 100mph and I'm pretty sure I would not stay on the road. Surely there must be some speed you should be trying to achieve as the limit point changes.
Very good explanation. Although I am not a csr driver, but I ride a bike and I have my own e-scooter, maybe I can use your very simplified rule/skill. Thank you very much.
useful video/interesting to have it pointed out, even if it's what a lot of us are doing already. If you know/see/understand the limit point and you drive to it then you wont be caught out but this does mean you are only proceeding at a rate where you can stop within that limit point (and remain on your side of the road). If you push the limits (even when you know the road well) then you are now just banking on there not being an obstacle/obstruction/people/queueing traffic round the corner. And, well, good luck with guessing and being right about that for the next 40 years. So take care. Not preaching, just explaining the stark reality. Enjoy the drive. Liked the video.
Yep-true comment. Can you imagine powering hard around a blind corner to find a lorry in front around the corner and you'd be in a panic immediately. Humbling stuff.
I saw the same video, for the same reasons, around the same time you did, and had the same reaction. My driving instructor, (mumble mumble) decades ago, taught me this technique with the admonition "never drive faster than you can see." It's second nature now because I was taught it right back at the start, and I can't recall ever being caught out by a bend.
the faster you go, the farther down to road you look. Speed, Position, Aim, Turn. SPAT, From the California Motorcycle Safety Program. I got certified when I turned 18
Somebody that likes to drive fast but prefers not to wreck will begin to do this precise thing instinctually and then with increasing calculation. Thank you for summing up and legitimizing the the process for me. Never knew it was a thing. Sincerely. Not being a smartass. Subscribed with bells on. Pretty sure I will fill some holes in my game here as you explain your point in direct and concise fashion. Wish you'd stay on the correct side of the road, though. Makes my butt pucker a bit sometimes. ;)
only drive fast on roads that you know. This technique is useful for determing how fast your car should enter a corner, but some corners get tighter and you may carry too much speed to take the corner.
True- first comment that bought this point up... Personally, I found his technique a bit iffy at best. It seems like there are better technique than the one shown in this video . I prefer tmto use the tree -line/ scenery as a guide to know the radius of the corner including tightening radius corners...
Maybe note that this technique is useful for judging a corner, but should never be used to acutally try and push the limits just by applying this technique. You should only ever push towards the actual limits if you know the road well enough, that also includes things like surface on and off the track as well as conditions of course.
You shouldn't be pushing to the limit on the road EVER, even if you're pressing on...
Super correct, the idea of limit point of view as you said is not go to the limit, it is to have enough time to brake for any hazard "you can stop on your own side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear’
yep, i agree. you can push a lot more if you actually know the road
I have a downhill with a lead in curve to the left (US road) as you begin the descent. Downhill about 110 meters then, still on the downhil begins a curve to the right leveling out and going then into a straight section.
I can take it at about 50mph if I relax where my mind says I should slow...the mental trick of relaxing in perceived danger is important. However, I want to try for cornering st 60/65 mph and the relaxation there is no longer valid; and I don't know what to do to be able to safely handle the higher speed.
Driving a passenger van, if that matters.
Also, if I were to lose the road on the turn it would generally be only a vinyl pasture fence I would run into. There is a tree but I would have to panic or absolutely misjudge several things to end up there.
@@davidgavin7280 Whose limits, mine or yours? I will bet that either you or me has a higher limit that you or me feels comfortable at.
The limit point is strictly geometry related. The limit point will come towards you wenn you approach the corner, regardless at which speed you are approaching.
So, it`s not really correct to just state: "if the limit point comes towards you, you are going too fast". The only way to make the limiting point not come towards you when approaching the corner is to make a full stop :)
That's why I think additional info is needed here. Something like what is a safe distance to a limit point for a given speed..
For example, you are doing 80, and the limit point is 50 meters away and still getting closer would mean that you are too fast...
137 comments at this point, and you and I seem to be the only ones who realize this simple fact...
Quite right. You took the words out of my mouth. The technique is good for informing how the bend is developing, but this is, indeed, independent of speed.
As a driving instructor the fundamental point missing here is that to drive safely you should always be able to stop easily in the distance that you can see, i.e. the limit point. The limit point should be used to judge that and speed adjusted accordingly. Another point missed is that the limit point on a right hand bend, if driving on the left, is ,as stated the point where the 2 verges meet. However on a left hand bend it is the left verge and the centre of the road as this is the closest point of obstruction going in that direction.
@andymorrow55 best comment of the lot
@@stephenfrancisnyc cheers Stephen.
Your technique works well, but you should also keep in mind about being able to stop within the distance you can see its clear. A question I always asked my pupils was, “What’s round the corner,” usually answer was, “I don’t know.” That is why you should only drive at a speed that you can stop within the distance you can see.
Totally 💯 👍
And not just obstructed road sight lines, there are weather induced obstructions fog/rain/snow (maybe also blown sand or leaves) to consider as well and that originate your rule "only drive at a speed that you can stop within the distance you can [clearly] see".
Bang on to original post 👍
@@Don.Challenger Or as Jack Burton always says, "I never drive faster than I can see and; and besides, It's all in the reflexes." (from 'Big Trouble in Little China' ;))
THIS! Never drive fast when you can't see what's ahead!
Defensive driving should also prepare for possible obstructions (Cyclist etc) that you can't see. That is a lot slower speed than that shown here.
Same method applies, just get passenger to open their door.
At all times the driver should drive at a speed that would allow them to stop *IN THE ROAD SPACE THEY CAN SEE IS CLEAR* and this technique changes nothing in that regard.
I use this technique and it is very useful. Since I was taught it a while back it has 100% made me a better driver.
I do however fully agree about "defensive" driving, as my own personality flaws make me naturally speed up when looking so far ahead, and not just drive fast but actually start to seek the cars limit (subconsciously I may want the road to be clear, I don't know).
If it's a sunny Sunday then I approach EVERY corner as if there is a cyclist or horse on the otherside...and on the back-roads of Yorkshire, there usually is!
That's something fast drivers never seem to care about. They will follow all the rules except the speed limit, stay on their side of the lane and shoot out of a corner but if someone else is taking that corner wide then it's a bad accident and they would most definitely blame the other guy. 🤷
The 'ideal speed' is the speed in which you could bring your vehicle to a complete stop if there was a hidden hazard. You have GOT to assume that on every bend there is a broken down car or a cyclist laying in the road. Could you stop? Could you stop without drifting out of the bend toward oncoming traffic? In my view, your speeds were (based on what I just said) a little too fast, but it's hard to tell on a video.
I think he was going a bit too fast on the blind left bends but could have gone way faster on most of the right bends with better visibility. On the normal backroads I drive quickly on I usually slow down to about 20 mph for the blind corners unless it's extremely right then a bit slower.
I once came around a corner on a bigger road than this, a road I travelled at 90mph 10 times a day for years. One day there was a dustbin lorry mid corner, reversing back toward me. Brown trouser moment. It was full stig Blomquist around him. Luckily nothing coming opposite way.
YES!
I was always taught to drive in a manner in which I could stop if anything unexpected was seen in the road. Used through corners this ensures a safe speed and covers all your driving.
Interesting that you mentioned learning this when riding a motorcycle. I've both ridden bikes and driven cars for decades and this 'technique' has always been my instinctive way of reading the road, without ever having formalised it into a technique. Maybe that's something that riding instills very early. My worst 'bend' experience was entering a sharp right hander at the exact same moment that a large RV coming in the opposite direction misjudged their entry and strayed across into my path. Correcting my line to avoid, right at the bend's apex, totally threw the car's balance and demonstrated why traction control can sometimes be very useful.
Wet leaves, gravel, cars coming onto the road from say a farm, Amish riding a horse drawn carriage, an accident in the corner, a car making a turn in a corner to get onto a side road,in the middle of nowhere a car coming across the road to go to a roadside stand or whatever piques their interest (I found myself on a car hood after the guy saw and wanted to stop at a roadside telephone booth. That's all he was thinking about.),... When I wanted to drive or ride safe I drove only fast enough that I could stop before the furthest point in my vision.
@@SportsIncorporated Well, yes, driving or riding a motorcycle is certainly also about managing the myriad of random events and circumstances you'll encounter every time you go out. And you're right, that list of hazards is extensive and your ability to survive relies above all on anticipation and reaction.
That is my experience too, starting with a bicycle.
Or always be able to stop in the distance you can see. i.e. before the vanishing point for horses/cyclists and walkers. Not to mention farm machinery
Can you stop in the distance you can see in, on your side of the road
And what about the double apex bends?
Road craft does not teach apex driving (the racing line) It talks more about position of vehicle for the view. Using observation and vanishing point you can still drive double bends
And be able to stop in half the distance you can see on a single lane (to allow for approaching, oncoming traffic).
@@allongshanks940 yes you're right in what you say. Sorry if you misconstrued what I meant, sometimes a bend which you think you've sorted by limit point analysis tightens up into a 'double apex' - I was just saying, always expect the unexpected!
Yes, this technique is very good and very well shown. Only trouble is, as illustrated at 3:28 when the blind bend switches to a much tighter corner. Harder braking is required in a short distance, including as demonstrated through to the apex, thus upsetting the balance of the car. Pays to know the road or otherwise approach with much more caution. With a rear wheel drive car, I’d much rather approach the corner slower and then accelerate out using the oversteering effect. I often find I make better progress in this way.
You shouldn't be anywhere close to 'upsetting the balance of the car' or 'oversteering' on public roads. Go to a track if you want to drive like a twat
"It's better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than to go into a corner fast and come out dead"
*Yes, this technique is very good and very well-shown. Only trouble is, as illustrated at 3:28 when the blind bend switches to a much tighter corner: Harder braking is required in a short distance, including as demonstrated, through to the apex, thus upsetting the balance of the car. Pays to know the road, or otherwise approach with much more caution. With a
rear-wheel drive car, I’d much rather approach the corner slower and then accelerate out using the oversteering effect. I often find I make better progress in this way.
I'm sorry you're claiming in the context of safety advice you often oversteer out of corners? 😂
A historical problem, and one that still affects some old roads, is where they were designed and built in the heydays of railways, which have a very different view of the onset of cornering (the track takes care of the steady tightening of their bends). Such 'railway roads' don't match the human eye expectations and folks can fly off the corners as they tighten up, where the railway would be quite happy. If I remember correctly it was a traffic engineer in Aberdeenshire (Scotland, UK) that highlighted the issue (around the time of WW1-2, long ago). Nearly all roads now follow modern design norms.
Living out in the sticks, I think I've been using the limit point technique instinctively for years. Now I know why it works.
I am almost seventy now, I got taught that technique at around age fifteen. I have never forgotten that lesson. I still ride motorcycles, targa rally my E46 M3 and drive refrigerated B trains part time. I very very rarely get caught out, but some of the roads in New Zealand are a little unpredictable sometimes, especially after cyclone Gabriel last Christmas
New Zealand roads certainly keep you on your toes. haha. Have had many friends visit from overseas and comment on how intimidating country road driving here can be. Just seemed normal to me until driving overseas on lots of straight, flat, orderly roads.
Excellent video. You illustrated how my father taught my brother and I to drive. He raced formula vee in the late 60’s and off road in the early 70's. My father said "Never drive faster than you can see."
Sound advice as it forces you to look all the way up the road, something many fail to do. Been riding powerful bikes for nearly 50 years and this is a technique I’ve used for as long as I can remember on roads I don’t know. Applied well, and it does take practice until it becomes automatic, means you will always be in the right position in the right gear at the right speed without needing to adjust late. Fast & smooth 👍
This is good but the problem with focussing on the limit point when the road is bending to the left is that you're optimising for speed to take the corner but not for the possibility that there is something around the (blind) corner you can't see.
My approach is to ensure that my stopping distance is smaller than the distance I can see in that scenario.
Great tip.👍🏻 I have been driving for 48 years and had many cars that have been extra fast over that period. I tend to drive quite hard when there are no dangers and have never had an accident or insurance claim. I can honestly say, the three times I nearly came to grief all occurred when I was driving at the speed limit and being too laid back. Intense focus and awareness is crucial when driving hard and one tends to not lose attention. A lot of people drive familiar routes routinely in robot mode,away with the fairies I might add, there is bo speed limit on the open road on the IOM, just in case anyone gets judgemental 😉
*Great tip. 👍🏻. I have been driving for 48 years and had many cars that have been extra fast over that period. I tend to drive quite hard when there are no dangers and have never had an accident or insurance claim. I can honestly say, the three times I nearly came to grief all occurred when I was driving at the speed limit and being too laid back. Intense focus and awareness is crucial when driving hard, and one tends to lose attention. A lot of people drive familiar routes routinely in robot mode (away with the fairies, I might add). There is no speed limit on the open road on the IOM, just in case anyone gets judgemental. 😉.
What's the IOM? When I look for it with a search engine, I get returned, 'Internantional Organization for Migration'. Are you in fact referring to a roadway or roadway system?
@@victoriagrayson5082 ruclips.net/video/r85eO_VDEJI/видео.htmlsi=Pj7atcEhCttR5q_Z
@@victoriagrayson5082
The Isle of Man.
Check for the race, it's a beauty.
Thank you.@@colinm1325
You must be a amazing driver,, or a amazingly great driver never to have had a accident, even the greatest driver's in the world have had accidents, accidents are unfortunate but you do learn from them, I'm certainly not saying to crash deliberately either 😂..interesting comment thanks that gave me a genuine chuckle.😂
This technique, while helping make bends faster and smoother, is actually taught in the IAM as more of a safety measure to begin with. The idea of the limit point is to always be able to stop before you get to it. That way, if there is a car broken down just round the corner, or a big pothole that you can’t avoid (a bigger concern for motorcyclists than drivers), or even someone/something on the road, you will be able to stop. The limit point is always active, and is particularly useful in busy towns too.
Fantastic tip! just tested it out in some freeroam maps in asseto and a few tracks and works great! I'm still a relatively new driver and tips like these are just splendid. Please share more!
I learnt this when I was rallying. Very good advice
I have driven close to 480,000 miles in my last 26 years of working at a government mountaintop military ICBM tracking site, that I drove to, every day, excluding weekends. It took over 4 hours for a round trip on each of those days of travel. I STILL learned something NEW here, by your 'formula'.....and I consider myself an EXCELLENT driver!! Thanks!! Great point to follow! Thanks!!
I was taught something very similar to this about 20 years ago, it was described to me as looking into the furthest corner and you can see the speed in this way. Also it gives you great road position
Was taught this over 25 years ago by my driving instructor. He was an advanced driving instructor with ROSPA gold. Has served me well on roads that i am not familiar with.
I’m 17 i cant wait to be driving (18) where i live, i hope i will be a good driver
All it takes is practise and being a bit attentive. Don't worry!
If you are already watching videos like this, I’m sure you will be!
As long as you've got common sense & you care about life. You'll be fine.
👍😉
Observation and anticipation.
Treat everyone on the road as though they want to kill you.
When seeing a car ahead wanting to pull out of their junction, watch their wheels. Even a move forward of a few inches shows up on the wheels (this once saved my life).
On bends, look at the paintwork of the cars coming the other way, their reflection will show brake lights.
Give the car in front plenty of room - they may be texting!
Be accommodating to others, but don't stop to let someone out of a junction.
Never get out of your car in a road rage situation.
ALWAYS only drive as fast as the distance at which you can stop in.
Passing my test was the greatest day of my life...47 years ago. Driving is something I do better than anything else - because it's a skill which you build.
Have a great life.
@@jimskirtt5717 thank you
Just stumbled upon this, and I've also seen the video referenced here. As a motorcyclist, I had the same thought while watching the other video. I'm of the opinion that drivers, of virtually anything, can improve their skill set by learning motorcycling technique. Even having been professionally trained, and licensed, to drive everything from an automobile to a multi-unit heavy vehicle combination, nothing improved my roadcraft like becoming a trained motorcyclist. Even if one has zero interest in becoming a motorcyclist, I'd recommend reading books on riding techniques and practicing them while behind the wheel.
I wholeheartedly agree.
In a similar fashion, I felt a surprising improvement in my urban driving skill after I started using a single-speed bicycle (always had multi-speed ones before).
The RUclips algorithm just put this video in my feed.. coincidence.. i think not!
Can't believe it's taken me 7 months to see this video!
Glad I inspired this and you certainly explained it more simply than I did!
The algorithm was slow to show you something you already knew Mick 😂 Thanks for stopping by and commenting though. Keep up your excellent content, I watch regularly. And welcome to the BMW club 😊
I learned this in a motorcycle riding course, it's useful for driving as well. Keep your vision focused on the farthest point of the road you can see and trust your peripheral vision to keep track of nearby vehicles.
Driven for years even on a professional basis never shown or knew of this technique simple but clever!
I played live for speed, for more than 10 years, but only last year somehow I tried to turn the apex of the wheel to follow the curve ( some personal bs theories ) when I realized this imaginary point and driving become so smooth, and speed management become amazing... I didn't know what was going on, and at times I managed to follow this point at times I simply forgot.. but had no idea how it is called up to now... thanks...
The position of the vanishing point depends on your position, not on your speed, so it's pretty unusable to judge your speed. You see the same vanishing point if you are going 20 km/h or 200.
Didn't understan the "point" either
Wish Id seen this a few weeks ago and shared it with my wife. Shes currently recovering from an car accident after taking a corner too quickly. Passing it on to my daughters too. Thanks for posting.
I hope she recovers quickly! 🙏
Yup, this is how I was taught in an advanced driving course 15 years ago, still use it today on the motorbike. Thank you for the refresher :)
I never had any formal 'professional' driving instruction outside of a MSF course and track day briefs.
However, as I started driving over 2 decades ago, did a few track days, auto-x, computer sims, I discovered the vanishing point technique and always summarized it for street-driving as "never drive faster than you can see", or "never drive faster than you can stop". This means that even if I know the road, and I can very confidently take this corner at 50mph, but i can only see my stopping point if I were driving 30mph, I only drive 30mph because I can't see 50mph worth of stopping distance in front of me. This comes down to understanding your vehicle and your ability. I wish everyone could do an Auto-x or track day, and have the understanding to apply it to their every day driving.
As I have gotten older I have also realized that a lot of street driving is unpredictable, and having to always be on edge increases your stress levels which can be bad for your decision making and overall mental/physical health. So just take it easy on streets. If everyone did this, there would be far fewer accidents, less slow-downs and I believe our society as a whole would be less toxic.
You are absolutely right. I allso use this technique. I will even say that learning to ride a motorbike later on in life made me a beter car driver
I’m sure I was taught this concept forever ago when cars were still powered and stopped by our feet, Fred Flintstone was my instructor. In addition to the speed at the bend he made sure I understood how important speed control was when approaching anything; a curve, stop, crosswalk, on-ramp… At about 2:45 when a vehicle was ahead, obstructing a long distance view, Fred may have said I was getting too close b/c I should have time to stop for the obstacles in the path of the vehicle in front of me (wow, that idea is very difficult for me to put into words.)
Fred also had some good tips like - Use the speed of the vehicles around to Help determine an appropriate speed - there’s no sense in rushing up behind a gravel truck or into a speed trap. Two hands on the wheel at all times - prayers said, 8track should be in, lights/heat/wipers/seatbelts on, drink finished before the car is rolling. It was long before on-wheel controls and cup holders.
‘When you expect the other driver to do something stupid you are twice as safe.’ From an instructor almost half a century ago
What also helps is looking into the bend at where you want to end up, especially important on a Motorbike, and I believe works the same in a car, i.e. where you look is where the bike/car will go
Also called target fixation. Where you look is where you go 100% of the time. If you look at the opposite kerb, verge, hedges, pedestrians, or just too short distance in front then that will be your crash point. Look into future, so well past the corner exit and you'll avoid this.
Totally agree, Sean. If you look at the inside of the curve, you will stay on the inside. If you look at the outside, where you want to avoid, you'll go there. Always look where you want to go, not at what you want to avoid.
I wasn’t taught what you say.
When the « limit point » comes closer, it means the curve is tightening and went it gets further away, the turn is straightening.
But it will do so at whatever speed you are approaching a corner for the simple reason it has to do with geometry.
Unless British roads are quantum
This is learned intuitively when driving heavy trucks, which are not the least bit shy of proving the driver wrong. I have used this with everything from semi tractor trailers to my Porsche 968. It is hardwired behavior for me, like knowing when to surface for air while swimming.
Never did anything like a big rig, but even vans or trucks without requiring special certs take longer to stop. You have to think ahead of your braking distance. And in a lighter compact car lower to the ground one can get away with stuff you'd never consider reasonable in the van. And the bigger it is, the more steering out of the situation is affected too. I find it a bit crazy how some people are with certain vehicles before having enough time to really feel them out. (Which in my opinion is a week at minimum.)
It's kinda hard getting caught out going at the speed limits anyways. Now if you wanna go fast there is one rule above all, test run the road first to get a feel.
And be extremely careful and be ready for ANY TRAFFIC SITUATION can be approaching- don't ever assume anything...
Thank you @MA-hc6mb ☺️
A couple of people have mentioned this but to reiterate.
The best driver training I have ever done was motorbike training. The techniques can be applied to all situations. Cornering is one obvious example where vanishing point, using the width of the road and positioning can be used to some extent in all vehicles. You are taught to ride defensively and to improve observation and anticipation.
Anyone would benefit from motorcycling training, it’s well worth reading the training materials to understand some of the techniques.
All motorists should have to get basic motorcycle courde both class and road , couldnt agree w you more
I also learned this when learning to ride motorbikes -- seems a common theme in the comments here too. I don't recall being taught it when learning to drive a car. Thanks for the video 👍👍🙂
That is good.
I was taught always to look ahead and to track where the road went, which works really well for me. I never focus on anything nearby and automatically speed up or slow down as the tracking requires.
Am old and I can use all the tips driving in my old age, Thank You.
As has been mentioned below I don’t think you mention strongly enough - or even mention? - that you should be confident that you can stop within the limit point distance.
For those aggressive drivers, what speed can i slow down to; to not die. 😂
Fantastic technique. Next time I'm having some fun on a new road, I aim to try this out!
All you're doing is tracking the outside edge with your eyes and steering. Keep it simple. Thanks for the vid!
First thing an advanced driving instructor teaches you...known that since my teenage years, after we had a talk from one at a Young Farmers meeting...stuck with me!
I was also taught this technique in my motorcycling days and it is something I transferred to my driving, however as a keen mountain biker it’s a technique I have never really used in my biking for some reason - I’ll be employing from now on though!
Sounds very simple but powerful technique - thanks for sharing
Sorry but that explanation just did not work. "The point is coming towards us 'fast' so we are too fast' is way too vague. You could be doing 5mph and the point will be coming towards you. What *I* was told, also by a motorcycle instructor, still used the vanishing point but was basically *'"Adjust your speed so the braking distance is the same or lower than the distance to the vanishing point."* or to put it another way *"Never drive so fast that you cannot stop within the amount of road that you can see"*
I taught this as an ADI many years ago.
See far too many people braking for even the slightest deviation on a road.
I really dislike being behind people like that. Not because they're slow but because they're unpredictable - one never knows what imagined danger will get them slamming on their brakes. I drive 4-5 seconds behind any car (my "Zen garden") but I leave those bunnies an extra few seconds!
I agree, they are unpredictable I would also guess they do not bother to look in their mirrors, I like you keep well back, I recall on ice dent where I was doing about 27mph, looked in my mirror as I looked back the car in front had stopped for no reason and I had to stop fairly quickly, lucky I was far enough behind. @@unclemick-synths
Very nicely described. I was taught to always pay attention to the farthest possible point of the road I can see and plan how I'll get there and pass trough there. Pretty similar. Having said that, it was pretty unnerving watching you drive on the left side of the road, when I've always driven on the right.
I've been thinking about this, or I guess trying to do this instinctively, for basically my entire life-- running, skating, biking, driving-- but never seen anyone bother to describe it. Nicely done.
Hi my friend. Yes, I was taught 'the limit point' just before I passed the IAM test in my Volvo V70 some 20 years ago. It's a simple but very effective way to tackle bends on country roads. I was also encouraged to cut across bends (providing) I could see across them where there are no hedges, fences etc. I don't recommend it unless you have been with an advanced driving 'observer'! . . Later, I drove articulated trucks for Safeways, and they allowed me to 'borrow' an artic loaded with blue pallets for weight, so that I could take the IAM test in a heavy goods vehicle. I passed in a snowstorm on a March morning . . No police examiners in Kent at the time, and so a Police examiner from West London was kind enough to meet me at my depot in Aylesford to do the honours . . At 75, I'm retired now from HGV's but still enjoy taking out my little mx-5 around the lanes for fun . . .safely. Happy trails my friend!
I took the IAM Advanced Test a few years ago and this was one of the best things in it. Use it every day.
Good simple instructions here thanks .
Not sure that looking at the camera constantly while driving and talking is such a good idea though.
Fascinating! This also explains why poor vision demands slower pace. Blurry limit points…
This reminds me of my behavior when I'm in slow moving traffic. The queuing cars easily adopt an accordion type behavior, starting and stopping. I tend to adjust my speed to the average speed of the traffic so I see a growing and shrinking gap in front of me. This means that I have an car queue accordion in front of me and a snail behind me. If more people drove like this I believe people would get less frustrated from stopping repeatedly.
That’s a great reminder for using this technique. It is something that I was taught many years ago, but don’t always think about. I have recently used it when driving my Range Rover in Scotland and Caterham on track at Donington. Very different vehicles and situations, but a useful skill nonetheless. Thanks for posting this video.
It was nice inheriting this technique from Racing in simulators then applied in real life. It's really satisfying
I would have thought keeping your eyes on the road would be a useful safety instruction. We could hear you perfectly well when you were looking straight ahead. You didn't need to keep looking at the camera and taking your eyes off the road every few seconds.
How fast are you going on this country roads sheesh. Looks fast.
Short and clear. Well done.
Love your enthusiasm for technique, you have to endlessly hone your skills, how good is the F30 in the wild!
Great for finding max safe speed to negotiate a bend but if you cant see around bend you must be able to stop within the distance you see to be clear. So you max speed will be governed by this and may well be much slower than just using limit point.
Interesting, I've been doing this instinctively for all my 7 years of driving. Glad to know it's a valid technique!
Whether the limit point is moving towards you or away has nothing to do with speed, you could be travelling at 5mph and the point will still be moving towards you when you approach.
All it is showing is how tight the corner is relative to your current position in the corner.
A technique i was taught by my father for country roads was to observe the trees above the hedges and telegraph poles as they follow the roads and bends and will give you an idea of where the road is bending.
That very nearly brought me to grief once, when riding as a pillion with a person who said he knew the road we were about to take, but it became clear he did not as he did not start to slow for a 90 degree corner to the right on a country road. That is until I stared to smack his ribs! We were both very shaken up by the close call, and when I asked him why he didn't slow he said he'd forgotten about that corner (Yeah. Right. He was trying to impress me!) and he was following the power poles, which in that case marched across a paddock straight ahead!
What made it more frightening was that he had been my motorcycle instructor when I was doing my P-Plates course.
@@Tamaresque You missed the part where i mentioned the trees and hedges, and not just the telegraph poles.
Turns out it's the thing that I named as 'the horizon of the curve' and I've been using this technique for quite a while.
If you care to glance at the line of the hedgerows and the trees either side of you, you'll notice that you can judge where the road is going from much, much further away than by simply looking for the vanishing point.
You can see a tree from hundreds of yards away- it will always be on one side of the road. You can usually work out which side it is, and hence know how tight a bend is, long before you even know there's a bend there by any other method.
Especially at nightv- that is the only way to judge a corners direction by LOOKING AT THE TOP OF THE TREES TREE-LINE at night with your high beams on...
Pretty neat. I think I've been doing that naturally without really thinking about it (in both my car and motorcycle)... But it's very interesting to have it explained in detail and to be made consciously aware of it.
Well done!
Thank you for the video, very interesting method, I have never heard of it.
Glad it was helpful!
Great advice. Thank you for explaining in detail the technique used here in the demonstration. 👍
Another overlooked and simple technique is to leave early enough that you never "need" speed to achieve arrival at your destination within your desired time limits.
Well I never had it explained to me, but I do this naturally by simple experience. I could not have explained it or taught it to someone else. But, yes, once in the bend, you can accelerate your way of the bend.
Interesting. I think I now do this naturally, without realising it is a technique. I realise now of course having seen you "put it into words" as such, but I'm left pondering where in my experience I actually adopted it. On reflection now I just unconsciously continuously modify my speed according to this "rule" but I can't remember when I started to..........
Everyone does what he says naturally. What I did while driving fast on twisting roads is putting navigation on, a 1 sec glimpse at it will let you know if there are tight bends ahead, very efficient at night.
Great video explaining g the technique. I've been using this technique on the roads since learning to drive, a father who was a great driver explained to me a lot about speed into and exit of a corner, and using this technique, even driving at slower speeds, you can simulate fast road driving by perfecting your positioning during entry, tracking and exit.
Thanks for the great vid
Interesting technique, but I have a question: in all the bends, the limit point will come towards you at any speed, even at very slow speeds, right? This doesn't necessarily mean you are going too fast.
Correct, this video is completely wrong.
Good technique key is smooth and progressive around bends keep the car balanced
Brilliant explanation. It is something I do instinctively but not always well -before - because I had not thought about it conciously thank you
Hmmm, I’ve been driving for over 30 years and never knew this was a thing! I’m gonna have to give this a try.
So are you seeing the ‘limit point’ effectively as a potential stopping distance? This is the only way I can rationalise it. Once it starts to move away, brakes off and track. When it begins to open out, accelerate gradually into it. (Depending on conditions, traffic etc).
Here is another tip. When cresting a hill, if you check the utility pole tops on the other side of the hill, you may get an indication of a bend in the road that you won't see until you peak the crest. But don't assume it is a 100% method. Sometimes Utility poles will switch sides of the road, even right near the top of tbe hill.
What you failed to mention (unless I missed it) is that to use this method you need to keep the vanishing point at a fixed eye level/distance in front of you. And this distance can change constantly depending on your driving experience, the vehicles ability, the weather/road conditions & your familiarity with the road.
Best to err on the safe side, do you believe you can you stop safely in the distance you can see in front of you?, yes?...good, no?...slow down!
The way I have thought about it, whether judging a corner, changing lanes, or turning into traffic, is this:
1: Be aware of what you can see.
2: Be aware of what you can't see. (i.e.: know where your blind spots are and what might be in them).
Very interesting, definitely something I'd like to look into further.
This is part of the technique I learned over 50 years ago called “reading the road”
Thankyou for this reminder, the most interesting part of which was the concept of a BM driver that does it properly. (!)
Bob, RoADA (gold), IAM (both, in car and PCV).
You described accurately what you are looking for but never what you should be doing as the conditions change. I could follow exactly what you said and be driving through a hairpin at 100mph and I'm pretty sure I would not stay on the road. Surely there must be some speed you should be trying to achieve as the limit point changes.
This is neat. I'll have to study it some.
Slow down into a curve/blind area. Speed up coming out of a curve/blind area.
One hopes one doesn't need to say "go slow enough to stop if need be."
Very good explanation. Although I am not a csr driver, but I ride a bike and I have my own e-scooter, maybe I can use your very simplified rule/skill. Thank you very much.
useful video/interesting to have it pointed out, even if it's what a lot of us are doing already. If you know/see/understand the limit point and you drive to it then you wont be caught out but this does mean you are only proceeding at a rate where you can stop within that limit point (and remain on your side of the road). If you push the limits (even when you know the road well) then you are now just banking on there not being an obstacle/obstruction/people/queueing traffic round the corner. And, well, good luck with guessing and being right about that for the next 40 years. So take care. Not preaching, just explaining the stark reality. Enjoy the drive. Liked the video.
Yep-true comment.
Can you imagine powering hard around a blind corner to find a lorry in front around the corner and you'd be in a panic immediately.
Humbling stuff.
Thanks to the infinite wisdom of the RUclips algorithm, your video popped up on my feed. Great video. Easy method
I saw the same video, for the same reasons, around the same time you did, and had the same reaction. My driving instructor, (mumble mumble) decades ago, taught me this technique with the admonition "never drive faster than you can see." It's second nature now because I was taught it right back at the start, and I can't recall ever being caught out by a bend.
the faster you go, the farther down to road you look.
Speed, Position, Aim, Turn. SPAT, From the California Motorcycle Safety Program. I got certified when I turned 18
Same technique works perfect at a round abouts as well.
Somebody that likes to drive fast but prefers not to wreck will begin to do this precise thing instinctually and then with increasing calculation. Thank you for summing up and legitimizing the the process for me. Never knew it was a thing. Sincerely. Not being a smartass. Subscribed with bells on. Pretty sure I will fill some holes in my game here as you explain your point in direct and concise fashion. Wish you'd stay on the correct side of the road, though. Makes my butt pucker a bit sometimes. ;)
only drive fast on roads that you know. This technique is useful for determing how fast your car should enter a corner, but some corners get tighter and you may carry too much speed to take the corner.
True- first comment that bought this point up...
Personally, I found his technique a bit iffy at best. It seems like there are better technique than the one shown in this video . I prefer tmto use the tree -line/ scenery as a guide to know the radius of the corner including tightening radius corners...