These counties use excess Chlorine to keep free chlorine levels at effective levels…. (That is what breakpoint chlorination means). This high chlorination level causes problems with PEXa. The yellowing is from the chorine binding with the plastic polymer. This weakens the polymer. Just can’t use PEXa in high chlorination area. The issue of the blue and red colored PEXa was that the heating needed to bind the color to the outside of the pipe changed the plastic polymer, weakening it. The color issue is different than the chlorine binding damage, but both weaken the PEXa pipe and cause it to fail/crack. If you filter out the chlorine or have well water, there is no problem at all with PEXa. So… just don’t let PEXa see lots of chlorine and use the non-colored PEXa. And by the way, sure PEXb “can be expanded” but it really is not designed to do this…. There will be breaks in the plastic polymer with the stretching required for expansion. Don’t create another problem by now using PEXb and expanding it. If PEXb crack when it is cold, in will “micro” crack at higher temperatures with expansion and fail down the line as well.
Myself and several others have concerns about expanding any solid color Pex A pipe. The default is use a pex B fittings and clamps. They will not reply be email but Uponor will tell you where in their manual that it's listed and can be found on the pipe that it is ASTMF1807 compatible and that is the rating for insert fittings with metal clamps.
I’m a plumber and I’ve installed uponor Pex in my home with a dedicated hot water recirculating line. Mine only lasted 2 years before it failed the same way your video shows the micro fractures. Mine was only one the hot water side. I called uponor and they stated that your not supposed to use Pex on city chlorinated water past 120 degrees and the recirculating pump can’t flow more then a specific gps. I guess it’s good for well water and not city chlorinated water.
Hey Joe, another great video! Do you think that I would experience the type of failure that you describe in this video if my home is on Well Water and not City Water? I appreciate your work!
I figured something would happen after a number of years! Never was actually tested for a long duration especially with his much chlorine that would affect the pipe over time making it become brittle from the inside well understood man It just took some time for it to happen. I've been plumbing since 1995 then I'm my own since '06 I've installed quite a bit of it. But degregation of the material is certainly something of an issue over time especially with how water is abusive chemically. I guess only thing you can do now is filter it take as much corner mean and chlorine out of the water. I've installed quite a bit of that red and blue over the years. Also heat plays a big role and how brittle it becomes over time.
Hi Joe, been using A and B for a long time and not one leak. Now, this job, Menards-bought Uponor and plastic fittings - and a bunch of leks at the fittings??? Called Ray Raymond at tech support and sent pictures. He is worthless.
hi joe can you do a water test on these houses and see if all of the failures are consistent with the water chemistry? if the levels of chemicals in the water are way off the water companies should have some culpability. if the water companies negligence is destroying their customers pipes they need to be brought into court
Great Video…. I am currently having issues with Uponor Aqua pex piping on the hot water side. Between 15-20 pin hole leaks all over my house. Uponor denied my claim stating that the water pressure was high when it was not…I had system checked by two different plumbers and no issues was found other than defective pipes..currently in the process of getting house repiped which is very expensive. Also considering legal action.
I've had the same issue, also had 4 houses in my neighborhood all with Uponor pipe it's turning yellow and getting pin hole leaks on both hot and cold, started the claims process, I couldn't wait the 45 days so I went ahead and repiped. I wonder is there a class action suit against them?
I have installed some of this in my home and it’s been in there for over six years. After seeing this, I am going to replace it. I just put some in my cabin and my son told me about the issues, I am replacing currently. I am a licensed plumber as well as my son.
Joe, thanks for your video's. With your input, I went with Zurn pex & fittings on a large new 6 bathroom home l am building myself. I am not a plumber, but didn't have any issues on the installation. I had also purchased Zurn's expansion heads for my dewalt, even though my Dewalt kit came with standard expansion heads. As you mentioned, Zurn has a great idea on the expansion heads to put less stress on the expansion pipe process. Thanks for all you've helped. I also appreciated you taking the time to talk on the phone & assist with my building education. Your passion for your trade is unsurpassed.
Jorge, I use expansions fittings everywhere, but terminated to brass expansions adapter fittings to NPT & galvanized nips for under cabinet shut offs for sinks & toilets. The shower valves had expansion connections. I didn’t do a home run, I went with 1” lines,trunk & branch to 3/4 manifolds. If you’re a fan of Joe, watch all his videos, they’re very helpful & he uses excellent materials.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc dont know how i got here. but as a amature this sounds like a great idea. im a coolingtech guy and i would never use any other pipes than copper. its a catastrophe if a so called new tech fails after a few years. my company would be 6ft under with me on top of that.
@@seanm3226 typically it's improper installation or age or high usage. I like copper for exposed work but I'd prefer PEX or cpvc any day for what's more hidden especially with brands that are rated for pinch rings and expansion. And if the PEX is exposed you would be hard pressed to find me using something that is cheap or untrustworthy
I trust you and totally agree. I look at you like a professor. I went and got some Zurn from Ferguson and it expands but I haven't had good luck. Any tips? I watched a good number of your videos. My tool may be out of calibration. I had/have uponor and USPS (conveniently) lost the sample unfortunately but I doubt they would do anything. Uponor can't be repaired from what I know from my experience with a pipe blowing off the fitting after the pipe was exposed to city water for a few months. Thank you for all the information again.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Thank you, I am working on ruling out my tool so I am going to use an electric one. I'm just getting started so anything helps and is appreciated.
@@brianc3481 The manual tool requires three arms to use and rotating the head after each expansion is difficult. The electric tool is SO much easier to use. It will expand fully, rotate the head so you don't mistakenly build in tracks inside the pipe, and allows full depth of the fittings. You will not have a problem with the pipe blowing off any fittings.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Is this a California water quality issue? My last east mid west home had 60 year old L type potable water and hydronic baseboard and radiant flooring 1 leaking solder joint in the 30 years I owned it. I test pool water regularly and combined chlorine is not a problem here. Thanks for your honesty.
Just getting the info on these failures. I have been installing PEX B with the copper crimp rings. I hope there is not an issue with them. And it seems to me, the failures of the pipe A at the joints are, at least partially due to the pipe being stretched out from its original size.
@@Sean_y4k2l5 Yes. I have used copper rings on PEX A. I can't see how it could be an issue. I can see how stretching out PEX B pipe to use with the PEX A joint would be a possible problem.
How about using PE-RT piping with Pex expansion fittings? PE-RT pipe offers many of the same benefits of Pex A or Zurn Pex B, but it's recyclable and it allegedly resists chlorine/chloramines.
Are you having to eat the repair cost of the plumbing and ceiling repairs, sence your company installed , is this falling under your lifetime warranty?
On my older Wirsbo AquaPEX pipes, all of the failures were away from the fittings. In the pipes that failed, the white pipe discolored to a cream colored and the printing severely faded. Only some sections were discolored, most of the pipe was not discolored ..... Defective pipe was was sent to Uponor. Uponor's analysis - no problem with our pipe........
@@bkoz319 About 4 years ago, we started having leaks in the walls. Last year after the 6th or 8th leak (and flooding a bedroom, closet and part of a hallway), we had our house re-piped with Legend HyperPure PERT. The house was built in 2005-2006 with white Wirsbo AquaPEX. Our neighbor 3 doors away also had the same Wirsbo pipe and leaks. He had his house re-piped a week after ours.
Joe scares the crap out of me! I sure everything has failures. He made a video I caught about Uponor warranty, now its been removed. I sure they threatened to sue him. I thought water piping like this was the future, now why even bother? I mean he says Zern pipe, but I am not even sure with any of these piping system. Why not just go back to the tried and true pvc. The home owner is totally screwed. I just do not know what is my best move anymore for piping my new home.
You are supposed to use the Zurn heads and fittings. Their expandable pex B is still not quite as flexible as pex A so it's important to use the entire Zurn expansion system.
I just replaced some when I was moving some piping 16 years old and it looks the same as the day it was installed, on chlorinated city water. There is something else at play as there is simply too much uponor pex a installed for this problem to be widespread because you aren't hearing too much about it.
@@shaunbava1801 yes but it is a thing and there are studies on it that are ongoing and especially where I live PEX is just coming in to play. There is no perfect plumbing system though, only well thought out ones. I definitely like using less joints with PEX and not having them behind walls.
Hey Joe, is Sharkbite pex brand any decent? Americans are struggling financially at moment. Zurn is hard to come by and when you do find it, its very expensive.
What if a homeowner has Uponor installed on a repipe and adds a water softener or filtration system to cut the ammonia…would that reduce long term failure assuming it’s the “new” white Uponor pipe?
I’m hesitant to believe that the color of the pipe is relevant to whether or not it leaks. The expansion rings are yellowing at the same rate as the pipe despite those not being exposed to the same amount of breakpoint chlorine. The cracks and things are obviously a problem, but the internal pipe/expansion ring’s color seems irrelevant to the issue.
He said chloramine not chlorine. I'm no scientist but I take it the chloramine leaching through the pipe right into the fitting. It's a chemical transfer that weakens the integrity that eventually will break down the housing from the inside out and cause a leak.
I have seen several of your videos. What do you recommend as your normal installation? I have seen Zurn piping mentioned. Is that with plastic fittings or brass or others?
@IntegrityRepipeInc Thank you sir for your information and help. I have a 1970's house with all copper. Found a pipe with a very small leak. It got me to thinking. I appreciate your channel informing us of the good, bad, and ugly.
Can you please comment on the Apollo Pex-A? They are sold at the local Home Depot stores. How is it compare to Zurn and do you recommend Apollo Pex-A? Thanks.
All Pex A extrusion method pipe is inferior to B extrusion method pipe. A method pipe should never rate a 5 because they can not withstand 140 degrees at 100% of the time for 50 years.
I don't like the look of expanded fittings. The pipes look stressed, and it's just all weird and bulbous and hokey. And now we see them failing. Only advantage is less restriction through the fitting. Copper rings look crisp and neat, never fail, and can be removed to salvage the fitting. Viega saves a little time, but aside from that are expensive and have no advantage over copper rings. Do I have it right?
Uponors new warranty. To be in effect, says that the pipe Must Be: Not Exposed to Water and the warranty Does Not Apply if there are chemicals in the water. Oct 1 2022. The warranty tells you what they are concerned about. Water-Chemicals in Water-Temperature-Pressure and Velocity.
So what pipe should we use then ? I seen where you promote the zurn expansion pex but then made a video on how it has to be room temp before using which makes it not very feasible to me as many of my repipes are in crawl spaces. If what you say is true about the Pex-A then what pipe will not fail under certain conditions because if so then there isn't one.
Zurn is what I install. is it perfect no. But A extrusion methods are inferior to B extrusion methods in my opinion. No A Extruded pipe should ever be given a 5 rating they can not withstand 140 degrees at 100% of the time for 50 years.
Doesn't the "breakpoint chlorination" problem you describe mean ALL Uponor PEX-A pipe will suffer this problem, regardless of whether it's red or blue or non-coloured (white)?
Thanks for the videos. I'm not a plumber but I'm doing a small custom camper system, so I'm still learning but do a decent amount of research. So, to be clear, you said Zurn PEX-A. Not the others. Correct? From my understanding, Uponor/Wirsbo PEX-A is the best out of the other PEX-A brands. Any truth to this? Which other brands have you used? Also, I'm curious about the white (old vs new) compound in the manufacturing process. From my understanding, not all manufacturers make PEX-A the same way, hence different qualities and issues. A new compound could be the same color (in this case, a semi-translucent white), so how can you tell if it's the exact same compound (old vs new)? Also curious if you contacted manufacturers on this. Thanks :)
@@MrBobbyrichmon I finally figured out you're a Zurn Pex-B man (with expansion rings). And it makes sense. I can't afford the expansion tool (any of them) so I'm going with Zurn Pex-B with steel crimp rings for my little custom home camper. Then I was going back and forth on deciding between copper vs steel rings. I have some really tight spaces so the steel crimp rings seemed to be a logical choice... If you have any different thoughts, I'd like to know. Again, thanks for your videos and helpful info. :)
@@mike-pm6xn Mike, the Milwaukee/DeWalt tools aren't that much money. I'm just a homeowner and bought a Milwaukee M12 with two heads just to keep after I repiped my house with it. I could still have sold it for about 90% of what I paid for it, but I'm less than $500 all in with two heads, one battery and charger. The time they save is incredible and you don't need to worry about an uncalibrated mechanical crimper.
Never knew PEX had such problems. I was considering replacing the grey polybutylene in my house with PEX but think I'll keep it. 35 years and not a leak in the polybutylene with all compression fittings.
You’re lucky so far then. That gray PB is some trash. QEST was the brand. Constantly fixing leaks and repiping homes in my area that has that stuff. One question, are you on a well or city water supply?
I enjoy your videos Joe. If you do not recommend Pex A, what do you recommend? Given the problems in the video, what piping is your company installing for these warranty claims?
Uponors new warranty, to be in effect, says that the pipe Must Be: Not Exposed to Water and the warranty Does Not Apply if there are chemicals in thenwater. Oct 1 2022. page 2.
I’ve noticed that almost all of the leaks in this type of pipe are always on the hot side. However I haven’t heard anyone talk about how the temperature setting on the water heater could affect how long the pipe lasts. I’d be willing to bet that people with their water heaters cranked all the way and who use hot water all the time are the ones with the majority of the leaks.
ASTM F2023 testing is designed to extrapolate the life expectancy of a hot-water plumbing pipe whe used at a domestic hot water temperature of 140F and a pressure of 80 psig. ASTM F876, ASTM F2788, and CSA B137.5 require that PEX pipe and Tubing intended for use in the transport of potable water have a minimum extrapolated time-to-failure of 50 years when tested and evaluated in accordance with ASTM F2023. F2023 requires a very aggressive water quality with minimum Oxidative Reduction Potential of 825mV. I have yet to hear Joe mentioned the ORP of the water where he has experienced these failures and would question whether the pipe is at fault and not performing to F2023, or if the water is well beyond the ORP of 825mV. Time at temperature matters as well. Yellow pipe/rings seems to indicate time spent at temp or UV. Lines with continuous hot water circulation will fail faster.
Hello Joe, I just put in Rehau Pex A pipes. I was concerned about them breaking down so I looked at my town's water report. It states: "The following chemicals were used in the New Liskeard Drinking Water System treatment process: Chlorine Gas - Primary Disinfection Sodium Hypochlorite - Secondary Disinfection All treatment chemicals meet AWWA and NSF/ANSI standards. Should chlorine gas and sodium hypochlorite be okay with Pex A? Thanks!
That's because of the rats, really PEX is banned in NYC because rodents chew on the stuff same reason NM wire isn't allowed. In my experience rodents prefer the romex to pex which is equally bad. In reality PEX lasts just as long as type M copper which unfortunately is what is being used now days in most place but he time it's 25 years old you'll start to see failed fittings and by the time it's 50 years old it's done. PEX will last the 50 years without any degradation not only that the difference in cost of materials and labor time you could redo the pex 4x for what the copper install costs. It's not without faults(lack of uv stability, looks messy, reduced id and thus flow, the aforementioned rodent problem) but all things considered it is the most cost effective way to go especially for a repipe.
Doesn't matter,if your municipality uses chloramine to disinfect the water,the chloramine will eat the pipe from the inside out,although everything I've seen the sweat fittings are slightly more resistant,but if you are using ball valves,they are yellow brass and are very much at risk for damage ,I don't know about bronze fittings.
Joe, you have stated in past video that you believe that Chloramines are the problem. Do you disagree with the Plastic Pipe Institutes Statement A conclusion that chloramines are less aggressive than free chlorine to Pex pipes? The testing showed pipe failure times were 40% longer when tested with chloramines compared to testing with free chlorine.
Without a chemical forensic analysis of the failed pipe we are simply speculating wildly. I strongly believe an overheat, over pressure, and corrosive gas exposure in some combination is the culprit. Excess ozone, ground-level sulfur dioxide, acid catalyst floor finish, any of these. That discoloration strongly suggests external exposure. We are a long way from definitively identifying the cause.
Sorry for the delay I have been busy. I tried to get a copy of the test from the Plastic Pipe Institute the said No Way. Please consider emailing me a copy to 4repipe@gmail.com and I will tell you what I think.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc I don't have a copy of the test, just the statement A document from PPI. ASTM F2023-21 references and gives credence to the PPI research and the conclusion that chloramines are less aggressive than free chlorine to PEX.
@@D2O2 Uponors new warranty. To be in effect, says that the pipe Must Be: Not Exposed to Water and the warranty Does Not Apply if there are chemicals in water. Oct 1 2022. The warranty tells you what they are concerned about. Water-Chemicals in Water-Temperature-Pressure and Velocity.
so.. is this just Uponor PexA, or is there a problem with all PexA? And, what type of piping and fitting do your recommend for (a) longevity, and (b) value/economy? Thanks
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Yes, I checkout out your channel and watched you video on that.. thanks for responding.. I don't understand how anyone can be satisfied with anything less than a 50+ year plumbing installation.. copper generally last longer than that - so my expectation is that building science improves the life of new construction, not decreases.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Interesting.. Since my last house had 80-year old original copper pipe with no issues besides one or two pin-holes that I had to repair), and my current house is 50+ year old copper pipe, no issues.. then, it seem that either (1) some defective copper pipe was supplied to your area, or (2) there is something in the water in your area eating away the copper, or (3) the plumber(s) in your area didn't install it correctly .. I can't think of any other explanation. Regardless, I don't disagree that overall it appears that Zurn Pex B maybe the safest bet for new installs.
@@larryzdanis5377 other than stub out I only use Type K copper and haven't heard of a failure yet. I have also used PEX A no issue as yet but I don't trust it and would prefer PEX B in my own house. The reason I don't trust PEX A is because of the burst rate is less than PEX B which doesn't affect a home really but if you are up North you need the highest burst rate in winter
We have poly-b here but our water is soft and pure, unlike American water which has so much crap in it , it just clogs up your pipes. Fix your pollution problems and even crappy poly -b pipes are as new as the day they were installed 30 years ago. End of story.
how are you dealing with these call backs? Who is paying for them? If a house floods even if it's uponor's fault, customer can make you liable and sue. I would be terrified if I were you.
Uponor is going threw a lot of changes right now. The new warranty says that the Uponor products Must Be: Not Exposed to Water. So it will be very interesting very soon.
He is one hundred percent correct, I have seen this damage firsthand with my own eyes. No one else will talk about this problem. I've tried talkin to the state plumbing inspector, I've also talked to labs and no one will check for chloramine, Joe hasn't posted in a long time, I hope something hasn't happened to him.
Are you also aware of uponors bogus warranty that their pipe cannot come in contact with water or chemicals unless you're on a well system, you more than likely have chemicals in your water. Which would void the warranty on your pipe.
it's all about the $$, every day we wake up to make $, need it to live under a roof. We involved around those who use money to gain power in in return the normal Joe gets Fu@#ed. lol
Sir, you obviously don't have any experience with pex a or copper, chloramine burns all of these from the inside out, Mr Ludlow is simply sounding the alarm. Don't shoot the messenger.
@@jayarnold5727 He's sounding the alarm that the shit he installs is going to fuck up a lot sooner than it should. Again, don't allow him into your home.
Exactly. If you pull his financial records, turns out he’s getting a fat kick back from Zurn pex b corporation that’s why every major contractor personality from Matt riser on the build show says this clown needs put out of business
These counties use excess Chlorine to keep free chlorine levels at effective levels…. (That is what breakpoint chlorination means). This high chlorination level causes problems with PEXa. The yellowing is from the chorine binding with the plastic polymer. This weakens the polymer. Just can’t use PEXa in high chlorination area. The issue of the blue and red colored PEXa was that the heating needed to bind the color to the outside of the pipe changed the plastic polymer, weakening it. The color issue is different than the chlorine binding damage, but both weaken the PEXa pipe and cause it to fail/crack. If you filter out the chlorine or have well water, there is no problem at all with PEXa. So… just don’t let PEXa see lots of chlorine and use the non-colored PEXa. And by the way, sure PEXb “can be expanded” but it really is not designed to do this…. There will be breaks in the plastic polymer with the stretching required for expansion. Don’t create another problem by now using PEXb and expanding it. If PEXb crack when it is cold, in will “micro” crack at higher temperatures with expansion and fail down the line as well.
Excellent observation. It’s the truth.
Thank you
Thank you for the information and the video. I appreciate it..
you're doing great work man, please keep it up! I've learned a lot from you so thank you!
I hope it helps you in some small way.
Thank you for your information teacher
Thanks Joe. Keep up the great reporting.
I hope it helps you
Thanks for sharing.
Myself and several others have concerns about expanding any solid color Pex A pipe. The default is use a pex B fittings and clamps. They will not reply be email but Uponor will tell you where in their manual that it's listed and can be found on the pipe that it is ASTMF1807 compatible and that is the rating for insert fittings with metal clamps.
I’m a plumber and I’ve installed uponor Pex in my home with a dedicated hot water recirculating line. Mine only lasted 2 years before it failed the same way your video shows the micro fractures. Mine was only one the hot water side. I called uponor and they stated that your not supposed to use Pex on city chlorinated water past 120 degrees and the recirculating pump can’t flow more then a specific gps. I guess it’s good for well water and not city chlorinated water.
Hey Joe, another great video! Do you think that I would experience the type of failure that you describe in this video if my home is on Well Water and not City Water? I appreciate your work!
I would be using Stainless fittings with Zurn Type B pipe.
I figured something would happen after a number of years! Never was actually tested for a long duration especially with his much chlorine that would affect the pipe over time making it become brittle from the inside well understood man It just took some time for it to happen. I've been plumbing since 1995 then I'm my own since '06 I've installed quite a bit of it. But degregation of the material is certainly something of an issue over time especially with how water is abusive chemically. I guess only thing you can do now is filter it take as much corner mean and chlorine out of the water. I've installed quite a bit of that red and blue over the years. Also heat plays a big role and how brittle it becomes over time.
Just curious. What about white composite pex pipe. Very educational and helpful.
Hi Joe, been using A and B for a long time and not one leak. Now, this job, Menards-bought Uponor and plastic fittings - and a bunch of leks at the fittings??? Called Ray Raymond at tech support and sent pictures. He is worthless.
If a person is building a new home that will be around for the next hundred plus years, what material do you recommend to run the water lines with???
hi joe can you do a water test on these houses and see if all of the failures are consistent with the water chemistry? if the levels of chemicals in the water are way off the water companies should have some culpability. if the water companies negligence is destroying their customers pipes they need to be brought into court
The Water Municipalities are under the EPA guidelines and city you are in is not likely to fight those Guidelines.
Great Video…. I am currently having issues with Uponor Aqua pex piping on the hot water side. Between 15-20 pin hole leaks all over my house. Uponor denied my claim stating that the water pressure was high when it was not…I had system checked by two different plumbers and no issues was found other than defective pipes..currently in the process of getting house repiped which is very expensive. Also considering legal action.
I've had the same issue, also had 4 houses in my neighborhood all with Uponor pipe it's turning yellow and getting pin hole leaks on both hot and cold, started the claims process, I couldn't wait the 45 days so I went ahead and repiped. I wonder is there a class action suit against them?
I have installed some of this in my home and it’s been in there for over six years. After seeing this, I am going to replace it. I just put some in my cabin and my son told me about the issues, I am replacing currently. I am a licensed plumber as well as my son.
Joe, thanks for your video's. With your input, I went with Zurn pex & fittings on a large new 6 bathroom home l am building myself. I am not a plumber, but didn't have any issues on the installation. I had also purchased Zurn's expansion heads for my dewalt, even though my Dewalt kit came with standard expansion heads. As you mentioned, Zurn has a great idea on the expansion heads to put less stress on the expansion pipe process. Thanks for all you've helped. I also appreciated you taking the time to talk on the phone & assist with my building education. Your passion for your trade is unsurpassed.
You did all expansion fittings? Did you use a home run system?
Jorge, I use expansions fittings everywhere, but terminated to brass expansions adapter fittings to NPT & galvanized nips for under cabinet shut offs for sinks & toilets. The shower valves had expansion connections. I didn’t do a home run, I went with 1” lines,trunk & branch to 3/4 manifolds. If you’re a fan of Joe, watch all his videos, they’re very helpful & he uses excellent materials.
Thanks Joe. Just carefully cut off the old pipe and reuse the same EP fitting if anyone doubts you.
That is something I have not tried yet!!!
@@IntegrityRepipeInc dont know how i got here. but as a amature this sounds like a great idea. im a coolingtech guy and i would never use any other pipes than copper. its a catastrophe if a so called new tech fails after a few years. my company would be 6ft under with me on top of that.
@@UpRisingDown I’ve seen copper fail plenty of times. Joe is not saying ALL Pex systems are failing, only Uponor.
@@seanm3226 typically it's improper installation or age or high usage. I like copper for exposed work but I'd prefer PEX or cpvc any day for what's more hidden especially with brands that are rated for pinch rings and expansion. And if the PEX is exposed you would be hard pressed to find me using something that is cheap or untrustworthy
I trust you and totally agree. I look at you like a professor. I went and got some Zurn from Ferguson and it expands but I haven't had good luck. Any tips? I watched a good number of your videos. My tool may be out of calibration. I had/have uponor and USPS (conveniently) lost the sample unfortunately but I doubt they would do anything. Uponor can't be repaired from what I know from my experience with a pipe blowing off the fitting after the pipe was exposed to city water for a few months. Thank you for all the information again.
I hope I can help you in the future
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Thank you, I am working on ruling out my tool so I am going to use an electric one. I'm just getting started so anything helps and is appreciated.
@@brianc3481 The manual tool requires three arms to use and rotating the head after each expansion is difficult. The electric tool is SO much easier to use. It will expand fully, rotate the head so you don't mistakenly build in tracks inside the pipe, and allows full depth of the fittings. You will not have a problem with the pipe blowing off any fittings.
Hey thanks. I have a well and no chlorine in the water. Will this affect me?
After several CPVC leaks I was considering PEX. Now copper may be worth the trouble and expense.
I repipe type L copper homes every day that are 6 years old. Chlormine leaches copper and etches the pipe from the inside out
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Is this a California water quality issue? My last east mid west home had 60 year old L type potable water and hydronic baseboard and radiant flooring 1 leaking solder joint in the 30 years I owned it. I test pool water regularly and combined chlorine is not a problem here. Thanks for your honesty.
What about Apollo PEX-A?
Just getting the info on these failures. I have been installing PEX B with the copper crimp rings. I hope there is not an issue with them. And it seems to me, the failures of the pipe A at the joints are, at least partially due to the pipe being stretched out from its original size.
I also believe that copper rings are the safest. Supposedly they are ok to use on Pex A also.
@@Sean_y4k2l5 Yes. I have used copper rings on PEX A. I can't see how it could be an issue. I can see how stretching out PEX B pipe to use with the PEX A joint would be a possible problem.
I can't help but think the expansion of the pipe to go over the fitting is what is allowing the chemical intrusion and eventual failure.
How about using PE-RT piping with Pex expansion fittings?
PE-RT pipe offers many of the same benefits of Pex A or Zurn Pex B, but it's recyclable and it allegedly resists chlorine/chloramines.
According to Legend Valve, the PE-RT they sell is certified for F1960 expansion fittings - yes.
Any problems with Zurn Type B pipe?
Are you having to eat the repair cost of the plumbing and ceiling repairs, sence your company installed , is this falling under your lifetime warranty?
On my older Wirsbo AquaPEX pipes, all of the failures were away from the fittings. In the pipes that failed, the white pipe discolored to a cream colored and the printing severely faded. Only some sections were discolored, most of the pipe was not discolored ..... Defective pipe was was sent to Uponor. Uponor's analysis - no problem with our pipe........
was the defective/ discolored pipe exposed to any light?
@@bkoz319 Nope. Never saw the light of day. Installed at night by blind plumbers... (Seriously, don't know. I didn't build the house.)
@@keitha.9788 is it exposed to light as it stands today?
@@bkoz319 About 4 years ago, we started having leaks in the walls. Last year after the 6th or 8th leak (and flooding a bedroom, closet and part of a hallway), we had our house re-piped with Legend HyperPure PERT. The house was built in 2005-2006 with white Wirsbo AquaPEX. Our neighbor 3 doors away also had the same Wirsbo pipe and leaks. He had his house re-piped a week after ours.
Was a catalyzed varnish applied to the floors during new construction? That curing process generates corrosive gas. Has that been ruled out?
Joe scares the crap out of me! I sure everything has failures. He made a video I caught about Uponor warranty, now its been removed. I sure they threatened to sue him. I thought water piping like this was the future, now why even bother? I mean he says Zern pipe, but I am not even sure with any of these piping system. Why not just go back to the tried and true pvc. The home owner is totally screwed. I just do not know what is my best move anymore for piping my new home.
Will the milwaukee pex expander heads for uponor work with zurn pex b or do you have to use the zurn heads?
You are supposed to use the Zurn heads and fittings. Their expandable pex B is still not quite as flexible as pex A so it's important to use the entire Zurn expansion system.
So we are plumbing my son’s house and we just bought Uponor pex to start the water lines is this a bad move .
I would be pissed with all the drywall patches throughout my house. Patches never match existing drywall.
I Believe you will be pissed when your house floods.
Will a water softner prevent the chlorine?
Can you do an episode on Viega? They claim to be resistant to chlorine and chloromine
Recycled plastic in the pipes - how would you know whether this is a set up for failure?
Uponor pipe 21 years on well water no issues.
I bet but treated water seems to be the killer.
I just replaced some when I was moving some piping 16 years old and it looks the same as the day it was installed, on chlorinated city water. There is something else at play as there is simply too much uponor pex a installed for this problem to be widespread because you aren't hearing too much about it.
@@shaunbava1801 yes but it is a thing and there are studies on it that are ongoing and especially where I live PEX is just coming in to play. There is no perfect plumbing system though, only well thought out ones. I definitely like using less joints with PEX and not having them behind walls.
@@brianc3481 Pex A is Failing every where. I get calls all the time from all over the country.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc yes,southern Illinois
Is sharkbite brand pex pipe any better, what pipe do you suggest are starting using today? Thanks.......
I also want to know this. Hope he does a video soon.
Hey Joe, is Sharkbite pex brand any decent? Americans are struggling financially at moment. Zurn is hard to come by and when you do find it, its very expensive.
I get Zurn pex everyday at my supply
I think I'll stick with PVC/CPVC.
What if a homeowner has Uponor installed on a repipe and adds a water softener or filtration system to cut the ammonia…would that reduce long term failure assuming it’s the “new” white Uponor pipe?
No the new pipe is not new it is just a deferent color. Yes it will slow the degrading of the pipe slightly.
So did you replace the colored pipe with Upunor white pipe with the red / blue colored writing or some other pipe?
This house is about to have more Failures in the near future! This is a temporary fix.
I’m hesitant to believe that the color of the pipe is relevant to whether or not it leaks. The expansion rings are yellowing at the same rate as the pipe despite those not being exposed to the same amount of breakpoint chlorine. The cracks and things are obviously a problem, but the internal pipe/expansion ring’s color seems irrelevant to the issue.
Right? Light?
I have not done the video on the science yet, I will do it soon.
He said chloramine not chlorine. I'm no scientist but I take it the chloramine leaching through the pipe right into the fitting. It's a chemical transfer that weakens the integrity that eventually will break down the housing from the inside out and cause a leak.
So if i want to repipe my entire home on the inside, what type of pipe should i use?
I have 2 almost full rolls of the colored uponor pipe. Can I get those exchanged for the new stuff
Doesn’t matter. New pipe will do same.
What is Break Point Chlorination?
I have seen several of your videos. What do you recommend as your normal installation? I have seen Zurn piping mentioned. Is that with plastic fittings or brass or others?
I use Zurn Pex B with F1960 plastic fittings and F1960 Rings.
@IntegrityRepipeInc Thank you sir for your information and help. I have a 1970's house with all copper. Found a pipe with a very small leak. It got me to thinking. I appreciate your channel informing us of the good, bad, and ugly.
One other question. What is your opinion on Viega and Rahau?
I use Zurn Pex B with F1960 plastic fittings and F 1960 Rings
Can you please comment on the Apollo Pex-A? They are sold at the local Home Depot stores. How is it compare to Zurn and do you recommend Apollo Pex-A? Thanks.
All Pex A extrusion method pipe is inferior to B extrusion method pipe. A method pipe should never rate a 5 because they can not withstand 140 degrees at 100% of the time for 50 years.
Also do you know if the sharkbite, and Apollo brand pex-A systems are experiencing the same failures ?
Sorry I can not comment on Sharkbite and Apollo at this time
A extrusion method pipe is inferior to B extrusion method pipe in my new opinion. No A method pipe should have a 5 rating in my new opinion.
I don't like the look of expanded fittings. The pipes look stressed, and it's just all weird and bulbous and hokey. And now we see them failing. Only advantage is less restriction through the fitting.
Copper rings look crisp and neat, never fail, and can be removed to salvage the fitting.
Viega saves a little time, but aside from that are expensive and have no advantage over copper rings.
Do I have it right?
Man and I was close to going with Pex A instead of Pex B because of the installation technique.. now I know better 😳
One bit of sunlight, fluorescent or led light, will cause this. Any chance of a vent, light, etc touching it. Even few hours a day over years.
Uponors new warranty. To be in effect, says that the pipe Must Be: Not Exposed to Water and the warranty Does Not Apply if there are chemicals in the water. Oct 1 2022. The warranty tells you what they are concerned about. Water-Chemicals in Water-Temperature-Pressure and Velocity.
So is Zuan B expansion better to use and wiil it last longer
Yes B extrusion method is better than the A extrusion method in my new opinion.
So what pipe should we use then ? I seen where you promote the zurn expansion pex but then made a video on how it has to be room temp before using which makes it not very feasible to me as many of my repipes are in crawl spaces. If what you say is true about the Pex-A then what pipe will not fail under certain conditions because if so then there isn't one.
Careful who you make bets on. Artificial light is causing the yellowing.
@@pjplumber2146 Uponors new Warrant says it( must be: not exposed to water) oct-1-2022. Not artificial light
Zurn is what I install. is it perfect no. But A extrusion methods are inferior to B extrusion methods in my opinion. No A Extruded pipe should ever be given a 5 rating they can not withstand 140 degrees at 100% of the time for 50 years.
Doesn't the "breakpoint chlorination" problem you describe mean ALL Uponor PEX-A pipe will suffer this problem, regardless of whether it's red or blue or non-coloured (white)?
I would believe so, the color supposedly caused cracking but I think the pipes can't hold up chemicals in city water.
That's why he doesn't use uponor at all anymore
Yes you are correct.
Most areas in the US still use only chlorine disinfectant in the water. SoCal uses a lot of chloramine which causes these problems.
yes
Thanks for the videos. I'm not a plumber but I'm doing a small custom camper system, so I'm still learning but do a decent amount of research.
So, to be clear, you said Zurn PEX-A. Not the others. Correct? From my understanding, Uponor/Wirsbo PEX-A is the best out of the other PEX-A brands. Any truth to this?
Which other brands have you used?
Also, I'm curious about the white (old vs new) compound in the manufacturing process. From my understanding, not all manufacturers make PEX-A the same way, hence different qualities and issues.
A new compound could be the same color (in this case, a semi-translucent white), so how can you tell if it's the exact same compound (old vs new)? Also curious if you contacted manufacturers on this.
Thanks :)
Its UPONOR
@@MrBobbyrichmon I finally figured out you're a Zurn Pex-B man (with expansion rings). And it makes sense.
I can't afford the expansion tool (any of them) so I'm going with Zurn Pex-B with steel crimp rings for my little custom home camper.
Then I was going back and forth on deciding between copper vs steel rings. I have some really tight spaces so the steel crimp rings seemed to be a logical choice... If you have any different thoughts, I'd like to know.
Again, thanks for your videos and helpful info. :)
@@mike-pm6xn Mike, the Milwaukee/DeWalt tools aren't that much money. I'm just a homeowner and bought a Milwaukee M12 with two heads just to keep after I repiped my house with it. I could still have sold it for about 90% of what I paid for it, but I'm less than $500 all in with two heads, one battery and charger. The time they save is incredible and you don't need to worry about an uncalibrated mechanical crimper.
@@ohger1 I didn't ask about pricing. I think you answered the wrong reply.
@@mike-pm6xn I was replying to your second post where you said you couldn't afford an expansion tool.
Curious what you all think about PERT for radiant heating.
Sorry I am not the right person to help you with radiant PERT pipe
Sorry! I am not qualified to answer that question.
Would you have a recommendation on a product that you would endorse? Thanks in advance.
I install Zurn Pex B systems.
But the collar is never in contact with water. How does it turn yellow.
The lab is testing that
Never knew PEX had such problems. I was considering replacing the grey polybutylene in my house with PEX but think I'll keep it. 35 years and not a leak in the polybutylene with all compression fittings.
Literally laughed out loud.
You’re lucky so far then. That gray PB is some trash. QEST was the brand. Constantly fixing leaks and repiping homes in my area that has that stuff. One question, are you on a well or city water supply?
I enjoy your videos Joe. If you do not recommend Pex A, what do you recommend? Given the problems in the video, what piping is your company installing for these warranty claims?
I install Zurn Pex B. If you use Uponor or Zurn to do a repair is not relevant the rest of the house will fail long before the repair does.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Thanks Joe...... keep the videos coming Sir
@@IntegrityRepipeInc with the zurn do you use cold expansion or crimp connections?
Sounds like it Time to get away from pex A and especially uponor pipe.
Not ALL Pex A, only Uponor.
No it's all pex A
@@jayarnold5727 All Pex A systems are inferior to Pex B systems. That is my new opinion.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc make a video saying all the money you’re getting off of kickback it’s funny every major Contractor contradicts your accusations
Joe, you’re bringing up a problem with PEX A. Do you have a solution? Is the same thing happening with PEX B? Or is PEX B the way to go?
We use almost only pex B with brass fittings in my country since the 90s, no major problems yet.
When you talk the pipe failure from Chlorine , what about well water have you seen the pipe fail from well water?
Uponors new warranty, to be in effect, says that the pipe Must Be: Not Exposed to Water and the warranty Does Not Apply if there are chemicals in thenwater. Oct 1 2022. page 2.
@IntegrityRepipeInc The pipe must not be exposed to water? Not sure what you meant to say here.
I’ve noticed that almost all of the leaks in this type of pipe are always on the hot side. However I haven’t heard anyone talk about how the temperature setting on the water heater could affect how long the pipe lasts. I’d be willing to bet that people with their water heaters cranked all the way and who use hot water all the time are the ones with the majority of the leaks.
ASTM F2023 testing is designed to extrapolate the life expectancy of a hot-water plumbing pipe whe used at a domestic hot water temperature of 140F and a pressure of 80 psig. ASTM F876, ASTM F2788, and CSA B137.5 require that PEX pipe and Tubing intended for use in the transport of potable water have a minimum extrapolated time-to-failure of 50 years when tested and evaluated in accordance with ASTM F2023. F2023 requires a very aggressive water quality with minimum Oxidative Reduction Potential of 825mV. I have yet to hear Joe mentioned the ORP of the water where he has experienced these failures and would question whether the pipe is at fault and not performing to F2023, or if the water is well beyond the ORP of 825mV. Time at temperature matters as well. Yellow pipe/rings seems to indicate time spent at temp or UV. Lines with continuous hot water circulation will fail faster.
You said it with more book smarts. Artificial lighting. U v light kills.
So true
@@pjplumber2146 also very true.. the question really is how much is too much
At the same time the pipes should be fine with that but the heat could help catalyze a reaction
We havent heard from Joe lately...did Big U hush him up? 🤔
Hello Joe, I just put in Rehau Pex A pipes. I was concerned about them breaking down so I looked at my town's water report.
It states: "The following chemicals were used in the New Liskeard Drinking Water System treatment process:
Chlorine Gas - Primary Disinfection
Sodium Hypochlorite - Secondary Disinfection
All treatment chemicals meet AWWA and NSF/ANSI standards.
Should chlorine gas and sodium hypochlorite be okay with Pex A? Thanks!
I will never again install a Pex A system. The EXTUSION METHOD is inferior and it produces an INFERIOR PIPE. Sorry! That is my new opinion.
Why did JOE LUDLOW stop posting his videos ???
Integrity Repipe where are you ???
He probably has a deffimation case against him from uponor.
I stay with copper sweat NYC. No pex allowed
That's because of the rats, really PEX is banned in NYC because rodents chew on the stuff same reason NM wire isn't allowed. In my experience rodents prefer the romex to pex which is equally bad. In reality PEX lasts just as long as type M copper which unfortunately is what is being used now days in most place but he time it's 25 years old you'll start to see failed fittings and by the time it's 50 years old it's done. PEX will last the 50 years without any degradation not only that the difference in cost of materials and labor time you could redo the pex 4x for what the copper install costs. It's not without faults(lack of uv stability, looks messy, reduced id and thus flow, the aforementioned rodent problem) but all things considered it is the most cost effective way to go especially for a repipe.
@Shaun Bava you can use romex Cable now in nyc, only 2 family homes
Doesn't matter,if your municipality uses chloramine to disinfect the water,the chloramine will eat the pipe from the inside out,although everything I've seen the sweat fittings are slightly more resistant,but if you are using ball valves,they are yellow brass and are very much at risk for damage ,I don't know about bronze fittings.
Joe, you have stated in past video that you believe that Chloramines are the problem. Do you disagree with the Plastic Pipe Institutes Statement A conclusion that chloramines are less aggressive than free chlorine to Pex pipes? The testing showed pipe failure times were 40% longer when tested with chloramines compared to testing with free chlorine.
Without a chemical forensic analysis of the failed pipe we are simply speculating wildly. I strongly believe an overheat, over pressure, and corrosive gas exposure in some combination is the culprit. Excess ozone, ground-level sulfur dioxide, acid catalyst floor finish, any of these. That discoloration strongly suggests external exposure. We are a long way from definitively identifying the cause.
Sorry for the delay I have been busy. I tried to get a copy of the test from the Plastic Pipe Institute the said No Way. Please consider emailing me a copy to 4repipe@gmail.com and I will tell you what I think.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc I don't have a copy of the test, just the statement A document from PPI. ASTM F2023-21 references and gives credence to the PPI research and the conclusion that chloramines are less aggressive than free chlorine to PEX.
@@D2O2 Uponors new warranty. To be in effect, says that the pipe Must Be: Not Exposed to Water and the warranty Does Not Apply if there are chemicals in water. Oct 1 2022. The warranty tells you what they are concerned about. Water-Chemicals in Water-Temperature-Pressure and Velocity.
So would that issue not occur if you were to install a heavy duty whole house filter system?
I will do a video in the future to deal with that subject. Thanks
It will slow the process slightly. In my opinion.
so.. is this just Uponor PexA, or is there a problem with all PexA? And, what type of piping and fitting do your recommend for (a) longevity, and (b) value/economy? Thanks
I only install Zurn Pex B pipe with F1960 plastic fittings and F 1960 rings
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Yes, I checkout out your channel and watched you video on that.. thanks for responding.. I don't understand how anyone can be satisfied with anything less than a 50+ year plumbing installation.. copper generally last longer than that - so my expectation is that building science improves the life of new construction, not decreases.
@@larryzdanis5377 I repipe Tyle L copper failure homes every day they are all for the most part 6 years old. I install Zurn Pex B systems.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Interesting.. Since my last house had 80-year old original copper pipe with no issues besides one or two pin-holes that I had to repair), and my current house is 50+ year old copper pipe, no issues.. then, it seem that either (1) some defective copper pipe was supplied to your area, or (2) there is something in the water in your area eating away the copper, or (3) the plumber(s) in your area didn't install it correctly .. I can't think of any other explanation. Regardless, I don't disagree that overall it appears that Zurn Pex B maybe the safest bet for new installs.
@@larryzdanis5377 other than stub out I only use Type K copper and haven't heard of a failure yet. I have also used PEX A no issue as yet but I don't trust it and would prefer PEX B in my own house.
The reason I don't trust PEX A is because of the burst rate is less than PEX B which doesn't affect a home really but if you are up North you need the highest burst rate in winter
Soo instead of getting in the attic and repairing it, you cut a hole in their ceiling, got ya....
We have poly-b here but our water is soft and pure, unlike American water which has so much crap in it , it just clogs up your pipes. Fix your pollution problems and even crappy poly -b pipes are as new as the day they were installed 30 years ago. End of story.
how are you dealing with these call backs? Who is paying for them? If a house floods even if it's uponor's fault, customer can make you liable and sue. I would be terrified if I were you.
Uponor is going threw a lot of changes right now. The new warranty says that the Uponor products Must Be: Not Exposed to Water. So it will be very interesting very soon.
Sounds like uponor owes this guy a few million bucks
Really it is an ongoing problem that is going to grow very fast as time is Uponor's real enemy.
@@IntegrityRepipeInc Seems like it's gonna be bigger than the kitec issues
@@IntegrityRepipeInc I have 2 rolls of colored uponor pipe in my garage. I am hoping that I can exchange it for the new stuff
Yawn. Pex in my house for over 20 years with not one leak or any issues.
Why are you the only one in all of youtube that is addresses failures in Uponor pex? Are you maybe getting $$ from a different manufacturer??
He is one hundred percent correct, I have seen this damage firsthand with my own eyes. No one else will talk about this problem. I've tried talkin to the state plumbing inspector, I've also talked to labs and no one will check for chloramine, Joe hasn't posted in a long time, I hope something hasn't happened to him.
Are you also aware of uponors bogus warranty that their pipe cannot come in contact with water or chemicals unless you're on a well system, you more than likely have chemicals in your water. Which would void the warranty on your pipe.
it's all about the $$, every day we wake up to make $, need it to live under a roof. We involved around those who use money to gain power in in return the normal Joe gets Fu@#ed. lol
Cut it and photograph the defects to prove your allegations.
I have already done that many times. watch the videos.
What is your opinion of PE-RT?
All this dude does is post videos of why nobody should allow him into their homes.
Sir, you obviously don't have any experience with pex a or copper, chloramine burns all of these from the inside out, Mr Ludlow is simply sounding the alarm. Don't shoot the messenger.
@@jayarnold5727 He's sounding the alarm that the shit he installs is going to fuck up a lot sooner than it should. Again, don't allow him into your home.
Exactly. If you pull his financial records, turns out he’s getting a fat kick back from Zurn pex b corporation that’s why every major contractor personality from Matt riser on the build show says this clown needs put out of business