People tend to pause and think about what bet sizing will get paid if they actually hit their hand. Snap bets with no regard for the board changing are highly suspect. This call was a perfect example. Well played sir!
This is a shit call. It's the worst possible run out. If you call QQ no heart what are your folds? I understand you don't have to be as balanced live but at 5/10 being this unbalanced seems spewy af even with the timing tell. Which if you played enough Poker you know that well this is a reliable tell it's definitely not a fool proof one. I have definitely seen players excited to make their flush here just grab a random amount of chips and put it in the pot very quickly.
@@Stockhandle123 Simply put, if you put the villain on air, you're probably calling with anything with which you arrived at the river. Nobody says it's foolproof. But I'd comfortably say that a snap bet, when the nuts change, is a bluff more often than it isn't. And most players at these stakes aren't advanced enough to predetermine a snap value bet for certain river cards.
Actually used this very live read to call a guy down with 55. Blew his mind, tilted him, and he was dine two hands later. This is a HIGHLY profitable tell. Also, kudos on rolling your hand when he said good call. Bravo on the etiquette. I will always do that until I get slow rolled.
I get surprised at how often so many people don't see it the front door flush coming in on the river and still betting their straights or big hands obviously more so in smaller steaks
It might be different at 5/10 since there are people thinking more in general, but I don't put much stock into timing tells unless I know what the player normally does. For an unknown, I think they're not that useful. Some people just aren't thinking regardless of bluffing or not. Or they determine their line immediately - like he flops a combo draw and just knows he's bombing it all 3 streets whether he makes it or not. I've seen so many snap bets with thick value and with bluffs. It's pretty uncommon with super thin value, because everyone needs a second to make sure they really should be going for value that thin, but that's about it. Once you know someone, it can definitely be useful though. Nice call from hero, though. I think I might have just given up the turn since I'm so often drawing dead or thin and he's usually got a ton of outs (plus almost every river is scary) if I am ahead. To win, he needed the villain to be on a complete airball bluff AND still not accidentally hit the ace (which he might still "bluff" on). It'd be a much easier call down in a 3 bet pot where he thinks I can't ever have many strong hands.
Yup. (80%) Depending on the player's profile. Some players (play their cards!) when flopped big (a set, 2 top pairs) just keep pushing their chips in the middle, irrespective of board cards. They're too weak to slow play a big hand...then, calling their fast and large bets would be a big trouble. Also, large turn bet makes sense had V flopped a set.
I actually like the "snap bet tell" on rivers quite a bit, but usually when I'm in position. Reason being that you have to allow for the time taken by hero's action. In other words; If I [hero] take 20-30 seconds to decide my action, my villain can be making their decision while it's still my turn to act.
Id agree, in my experience pretty much every tell is dependent on the person I haven't seen anything that's too reliable regardless of the player. And yeah on this board I'd be scared of a player turning a hand into a bluff that beats QQ
There are some hands like T9hh where I'd be snap betting the river - I'm either hitting one of my draws, or I'm bluffing anyway...but I think most of the time the snap bet is suspicious. And yes...a Level 0 player could snap bet two pair here thinking it's an awesome hand, though I find players this bad are typically much more passive.
@@pot_kivach160 All we can do is generalize and pick our poison, and eventually land on what is more likely when we see such a bet. Yes, we can have guys who snap bet with two pair on such a board, because they're bad players who think they're hand is awesome simply because it's two pair...but generally I also find such bad players are much more passive than that.
two consecutive large bets, both with no time taken to figure out...creates a pattern that says: _"All I want is you out of hand"_ Wonder, what would be decision if V took his time before putting pressure on H? Would bet size be enough to read the bluff?
I don't get the "no time taken to figure out". The villain was last to act. He has a couple seconds to evaluate and determine what he's going to do, while the hero looks at the board and determines that he's going to check
When I was playing at the Casino about 6 years back I made a player show his hand after he said I was good and he got Pissed. I didn't understand why he told me that it was bad Etiquette on my part. I wouldn't do that today, and I get why I f-ed up when I used to do it.
You’re entitled to see the opponent’s hand if you make the call. He should just muck his cards face down, if he doesn’t want to show. This also protects you from being forced to show your hand and give him free information.
@@mdl0838 Calling a bet ISN'T Free information. This is a Etiquette thing. By Casino or poker room rules, you are entitled to see the villains cards. but it is kind of a stupid thing to do.
this is different than the charles - garrett hand. charles legitimately wasn't sure he won even when garret said "you're good" (they're also pros so keeping opponents happy decreases in value and getting info increases in value)
How do you base something off of bet pacing, if the villain was last to act. He's thinking about sizing, while you are checking. The hero made the call based on bet sizing
Because it clearly shows they aren’t thinking. He bet big on the turn as well. If he quickly bets then it doesn’t seem like the villian is thinking about what hands would call his bet.
@@jamespohl-md2eq But if hero takes 20 seconds to check then there is no "bet quickly" for the villain. He's had plenty of time to decide is bet sizing.
@@johnf1772If you think 20 seconds is lot of time then I don’t know what to say. It clearly shows you weren’t thinking about why the check. Or what hand will call or fold.
@@jamespohl-md2eq Go stand outside in your Speedo in -40 for 20 seconds and you'll see how long that really is. Hero gave up the lead on the turn. I'm expecting him to check the river. If he bet then I'd be taking some time to determine "why bet". 20 seconds is a lifetime to make those decisions. Plenty of time to decide if hero has a flush or if I can make a better hand fold...if i have T9o, there's a lot of better hands that will fold. If I have T9hh, plenty of time to decide a value size. If hero takes 2 minutes to check are you really not starting to think about what it all means until he makes his decision?
Most of the time I also agree if someone instead mucks but yeah if hes putting you in a really though spot I hate that, just show your cards bro as the aggresor
It’s wild to me that Hero thinks Villain can only be repping 6x on the turn. Hero has almost no 6x in his range, couldn’t Villain conceivably overbet any flush draw to capitalize on fold equity with the chance to make the flush on the river?
100% agree on keeping fun rec's happy... IMO there's more value keeping them happy and in the game, than the little information lost/surrendered... But that's just my opinion..
100% that's why casino/poker room games suck now its absolutely zero fun for recs/whales usually. They have better odds and more fun at baccarat or blackjack
I really like this live tell, nut changers should really make players think about the action/sizing. Bravo to the Caller. One thing that bugs me here is the math. This was a 5-10-20 game. There is $35 in the pot prior to any action. Hero opens UTG for $60 and BTN calls $60. Pot should be $155.
@@88mphDrBrown That could be, but there was no mention of it. I'd think it would be relevant since it would make BTN even wider pre. Additionally, it seems it would be mentioned since most places have the straddle immediately left of the BB. Finally, it's just pretty far from the first time I've noticed the math being off on Bart's channel.
Never turn your hand over until they’ve either shown their own hand or mucked. They don’t get to keep their hand and wait to see mine before they’ve mucked.
Flip your hand over like you got the nuts and occasionally an idiot will muck the best hand. Might be 1 in 300 times but probably still more valuable than seeing their hand
Yeah, I'm not turning my hand over if my opponent decides to just muck. As a general rule you should never turn your cards over first if your opponent is already obligated to turn over his or muck.
I have a question about the situation where players say you're good and muck. What is the etiquette then regarding me showing my hand? Do I have to or can I scoop the pot without revealing?
While I make some exceptions for fish, I tend to like seeing an self-identified bluffer muck their cards before I show. Show 'em or muck 'em. Have you guys never been a victim of the "Oh, I thought you had more than THAT, I win" angle, or the "Oh, I didn't see I had a straight" angle? My point is not primarily to see what combo they were bluffing with, it is to prevent showing my own losing hand to either a very possible angler or slightly possible mistake. I've also had an extremely skilled player muck the busted high end of a straight draw, when I called just to see his cards ($40 at 20/40 LHE at Foxwoods). I had the busted low end of the straight draw, the nut low. He mucked and said "Oh, I thought you had nothing". At the time, they didn't require me to show the winning hand after he mucked.
There is a Massive difference between the fun player described in the call-in, and Garrett from Hustler..... If the Villain in the call-in was a crusher pro, I would 100% make him table his hand before I showed mine in this scenario.
We used to have a guy at my home game who would sit and wait for you to show after you called his bet on the river - it got so annoying+boring I just started to put the clock on him to either show or his hand is mucked so we could carry on playing! Don’t be that guy kids
If they muck their hand then I get to take it down without showing my hand and I'm cool. If they show, then I show. I won't make them show though. I don't like how this hand was played though. If he's aggressive enough to bluff two streets like this then the flop should have been checked. Turn also looks like a fold based on how it is played. Yeah, you may be over folding in theory, but a rec is going to have more 6x than they should and you also have to worry about leverage.
Ive seen people say "Good Call" then the caller flip over their hand, just for the other person to then show a slightly better hand. Ill show my hand either after they table or muck. To many shady asshats playing anymore.
I have called a river bet, been told “Good call…” tabled my hand only to hear “… for me” and have been slow rolled the nuts so, there’s that! Obviously I fist bump him saying “Good one. Ya got me real good” but after the 3rd or 4th consecutive time I hear “You’re good” and get shown the winner after tabling my hand to spare the rec player’s dignity… it starts to get a bit annoying. Most of the times it’s due to a player thinking (If he folds, I had the best hand but if he calls… Fk! I must be beat!) accidentally successfully merging in a polarized spot
Sure if a player does that even once to me I'm not showing first lol. But if it's a rec/whale I'm always just tabling if they indicate they don't have crap
I totally disagree. If a fun player doesn't want to show his hand, it's other story. You want to keep him happy, so that he sticks around, but with regs? You paid for that information and the reg is getting the info what exact combo you herocalled with, so why wouldn't you get the info on whether he turns his a highs/weak pairs into bluffs, what combo they decide to stab otr as well, etc. I always look at this as some kind of angling/toxic behaviour/trying to make me a pushover. And, since I look very young, there were also regs trying to make me think that I was supposed to flip my cards over first, when I clearly wasn't.
If it’s a reg or a good player I’m always going to see their cards when I call. It’s a zero sun game where information is key, I’m not going to get willingly angled when I don’t need too.
Bart is specifically talking about not making fun players show their hands, NOT regs. With regs, especially ones you don't like for whatever reason, do whatever you want
@@henner2006 Yes, but he mentioned regs afterwards, saying that it's not such a huge info and he referred to the Garrett hand, where he had his opinion on that as well.
@@Legianis Yes, with regs it doesn't matter. Show or don't. However, against the vast majority of people you play against the information just isn't that relevant. You'll never know his thought process and he'll never know yours. One combo played in a certain way in a certain hand doesn't reveal a strategy, if your opponent even has one. 99% of the time all you are succeeding in doing is slowing the game down. If someone says "good call" or "you're good" just show your hand and move on. The type of player who might slow roll you or accidentally realize they won after you show is not good enough to exploit you after seeing your cards.
People tend to pause and think about what bet sizing will get paid if they actually hit their hand. Snap bets with no regard for the board changing are highly suspect. This call was a perfect example. Well played sir!
Felted same guy twice on Friday this way. Just grabbed a random amount of chips. Both times he was on a draw.
@@user-ib9xq9uj7s could also have been the slight shrug and indifferent look. One can never tell. 😁
The only exception here would be 96hh where he wouldn't think about the bet.
This is a shit call. It's the worst possible run out. If you call QQ no heart what are your folds? I understand you don't have to be as balanced live but at 5/10 being this unbalanced seems spewy af even with the timing tell. Which if you played enough Poker you know that well this is a reliable tell it's definitely not a fool proof one. I have definitely seen players excited to make their flush here just grab a random amount of chips and put it in the pot very quickly.
@@Stockhandle123 Simply put, if you put the villain on air, you're probably calling with anything with which you arrived at the river. Nobody says it's foolproof. But I'd comfortably say that a snap bet, when the nuts change, is a bluff more often than it isn't. And most players at these stakes aren't advanced enough to predetermine a snap value bet for certain river cards.
Actually used this very live read to call a guy down with 55. Blew his mind, tilted him, and he was dine two hands later. This is a HIGHLY profitable tell. Also, kudos on rolling your hand when he said good call. Bravo on the etiquette. I will always do that until I get slow rolled.
what a beneficial lesson it is! thank you so much!
Love it, please keep making these turn and river calls. So profitable for me 😂😂
I get surprised at how often so many people don't see it the front door flush coming in on the river and still betting their straights or big hands obviously more so in smaller steaks
I hate small steaks personally, always get the cowboy ribeye
Lol. Steaks!
How small? Like Petite filet?
Missing a ton of value if you stop betting straights + just cause flush comes in
Bart is so damned good. Could watch him all day
It might be different at 5/10 since there are people thinking more in general, but I don't put much stock into timing tells unless I know what the player normally does. For an unknown, I think they're not that useful. Some people just aren't thinking regardless of bluffing or not. Or they determine their line immediately - like he flops a combo draw and just knows he's bombing it all 3 streets whether he makes it or not. I've seen so many snap bets with thick value and with bluffs. It's pretty uncommon with super thin value, because everyone needs a second to make sure they really should be going for value that thin, but that's about it. Once you know someone, it can definitely be useful though.
Nice call from hero, though. I think I might have just given up the turn since I'm so often drawing dead or thin and he's usually got a ton of outs (plus almost every river is scary) if I am ahead. To win, he needed the villain to be on a complete airball bluff AND still not accidentally hit the ace (which he might still "bluff" on). It'd be a much easier call down in a 3 bet pot where he thinks I can't ever have many strong hands.
Yup. (80%) Depending on the player's profile. Some players (play their cards!) when flopped big (a set, 2 top pairs) just keep pushing their chips in the middle, irrespective of board cards. They're too weak to slow play a big hand...then, calling their fast and large bets would be a big trouble. Also, large turn bet makes sense had V flopped a set.
I actually like the "snap bet tell" on rivers quite a bit, but usually when I'm in position. Reason being that you have to allow for the time taken by hero's action. In other words; If I [hero] take 20-30 seconds to decide my action, my villain can be making their decision while it's still my turn to act.
Id agree, in my experience pretty much every tell is dependent on the person I haven't seen anything that's too reliable regardless of the player. And yeah on this board I'd be scared of a player turning a hand into a bluff that beats QQ
There are some hands like T9hh where I'd be snap betting the river - I'm either hitting one of my draws, or I'm bluffing anyway...but I think most of the time the snap bet is suspicious. And yes...a Level 0 player could snap bet two pair here thinking it's an awesome hand, though I find players this bad are typically much more passive.
@@pot_kivach160 All we can do is generalize and pick our poison, and eventually land on what is more likely when we see such a bet. Yes, we can have guys who snap bet with two pair on such a board, because they're bad players who think they're hand is awesome simply because it's two pair...but generally I also find such bad players are much more passive than that.
Great Content!
two consecutive large bets, both with no time taken to figure out...creates a pattern that says: _"All I want is you out of hand"_
Wonder, what would be decision if V took his time before putting pressure on H? Would bet size be enough to read the bluff?
I don't get the "no time taken to figure out". The villain was last to act. He has a couple seconds to evaluate and determine what he's going to do, while the hero looks at the board and determines that he's going to check
When I was playing at the Casino about 6 years back I made a player show his hand after he said I was good and he got Pissed. I didn't understand why he told me that it was bad Etiquette on my part. I wouldn't do that today, and I get why I f-ed up when I used to do it.
You’re entitled to see the opponent’s hand if you make the call.
He should just muck his cards face down, if he doesn’t want to show.
This also protects you from being forced to show your hand and give him free information.
@@mdl0838 Calling a bet ISN'T Free information. This is a Etiquette thing. By Casino or poker room rules, you are entitled to see the villains cards. but it is kind of a stupid thing to do.
Show em or muck em, can't be mad at a fundamental part of poker
@@mdl0838its bad etiquette. Who cares what he bluffed with
You're good means nothing. Could have easily been a trick to get you to muck first.
this is different than the charles - garrett hand. charles legitimately wasn't sure he won even when garret said "you're good"
(they're also pros so keeping opponents happy decreases in value and getting info increases in value)
How do you base something off of bet pacing, if the villain was last to act. He's thinking about sizing, while you are checking. The hero made the call based on bet sizing
Because it clearly shows they aren’t thinking.
He bet big on the turn as well.
If he quickly bets then it doesn’t seem like the villian is thinking about what hands would call his bet.
My assumption is it was also a snap check. Otherwise, yes, if hero takes more than a few seconds to check, villain can predetermine his action.
@@jamespohl-md2eq But if hero takes 20 seconds to check then there is no "bet quickly" for the villain. He's had plenty of time to decide is bet sizing.
@@johnf1772If you think 20 seconds is lot of time then I don’t know what to say.
It clearly shows you weren’t thinking about why the check. Or what hand will call or fold.
@@jamespohl-md2eq Go stand outside in your Speedo in -40 for 20 seconds and you'll see how long that really is. Hero gave up the lead on the turn. I'm expecting him to check the river. If he bet then I'd be taking some time to determine "why bet". 20 seconds is a lifetime to make those decisions. Plenty of time to decide if hero has a flush or if I can make a better hand fold...if i have T9o, there's a lot of better hands that will fold. If I have T9hh, plenty of time to decide a value size. If hero takes 2 minutes to check are you really not starting to think about what it all means until he makes his decision?
Most of the time I also agree if someone instead mucks but yeah if hes putting you in a really though spot I hate that, just show your cards bro as the aggresor
It’s wild to me that Hero thinks Villain can only be repping 6x on the turn. Hero has almost no 6x in his range, couldn’t Villain conceivably overbet any flush draw to capitalize on fold equity with the chance to make the flush on the river?
100% agree on keeping fun rec's happy... IMO there's more value keeping them happy and in the game, than the little information lost/surrendered... But that's just my opinion..
100% that's why casino/poker room games suck now its absolutely zero fun for recs/whales usually. They have better odds and more fun at baccarat or blackjack
I really like this live tell, nut changers should really make players think about the action/sizing. Bravo to the Caller.
One thing that bugs me here is the math. This was a 5-10-20 game. There is $35 in the pot prior to any action. Hero opens UTG for $60 and BTN calls $60. Pot should be $155.
I figured BTN was the straddle. 35+60+ (BTN call) 40= 130
@@88mphDrBrown That could be, but there was no mention of it. I'd think it would be relevant since it would make BTN even wider pre. Additionally, it seems it would be mentioned since most places have the straddle immediately left of the BB. Finally, it's just pretty far from the first time I've noticed the math being off on Bart's channel.
Different blinds different actions 😉😉😉
Never turn your hand over until they’ve either shown their own hand or mucked. They don’t get to keep their hand and wait to see mine before they’ve mucked.
Flip your hand over like you got the nuts and occasionally an idiot will muck the best hand. Might be 1 in 300 times but probably still more valuable than seeing their hand
What if either one shows cards? 😂😂😂
@@e.t926 Opponent is obliged to show first or muck, in the scenario under discussion….
Yeah, I'm not turning my hand over if my opponent decides to just muck. As a general rule you should never turn your cards over first if your opponent is already obligated to turn over his or muck.
Bing bong!
I have a question about the situation where players say you're good and muck. What is the etiquette then regarding me showing my hand? Do I have to or can I scoop the pot without revealing?
Some place you don't need to show, some place you still need to show 2 cards.
@@Trust_but_Verifyso who wins the pot if you muck after the other guy already has his cards firmly in the muck and irretrievable?
@@fkscopes You should still win the pot, at most the dealer shows your mucked hand if there is a must show rule.
While I make some exceptions for fish, I tend to like seeing an self-identified bluffer muck their cards before I show. Show 'em or muck 'em. Have you guys never been a victim of the "Oh, I thought you had more than THAT, I win" angle, or the "Oh, I didn't see I had a straight" angle? My point is not primarily to see what combo they were bluffing with, it is to prevent showing my own losing hand to either a very possible angler or slightly possible mistake.
I've also had an extremely skilled player muck the busted high end of a straight draw, when I called just to see his cards ($40 at 20/40 LHE at Foxwoods). I had the busted low end of the straight draw, the nut low. He mucked and said "Oh, I thought you had nothing". At the time, they didn't require me to show the winning hand after he mucked.
Thats wild. You called with the worst hand and won. All cuz the guy refused to show. Crazy, but it makes sense.
Does hero ever check river if he has flush ??
Id suggest very rarely so villian could blast on that basis with a 6 (straight).
Playground is not in Montreal it’s in Kahnawake
There is a Massive difference between the fun player described in the call-in, and Garrett from Hustler..... If the Villain in the call-in was a crusher pro, I would 100% make him table his hand before I showed mine in this scenario.
I never turn over hand when it is their turn to turn over hand... if they are bluffing, I want to see what they picked... and it can tilt them...
As they say, bet "A" hand, even if it is not your own. 😊
Yeesh nice call. I wouldn’t have made it.
Caller kept repeating Barts idea but rewording it lije it was his own.
Flush my guess
Yo fun fact this is the exact same flop as your earlier video "did mariano get played?"
We used to have a guy at my home game who would sit and wait for you to show after you called his bet on the river - it got so annoying+boring I just started to put the clock on him to either show or his hand is mucked so we could carry on playing! Don’t be that guy kids
Based on the video cover; you are definitely not that thin 😂
Thank you for talking about the etiquette of just tabling your fkn hand.
Hero almost never has a flush as played. So not sure why we think the villain wouldn’t bet a straight or set
If they muck their hand then I get to take it down without showing my hand and I'm cool. If they show, then I show. I won't make them show though. I don't like how this hand was played though. If he's aggressive enough to bluff two streets like this then the flop should have been checked. Turn also looks like a fold based on how it is played. Yeah, you may be over folding in theory, but a rec is going to have more 6x than they should and you also have to worry about leverage.
When will the callers learn to read the flop in Highest to Lowest order ?! 🤣
I know Bart hates when they read it out of order lol
Ive seen people say "Good Call" then the caller flip over their hand, just for the other person to then show a slightly better hand. Ill show my hand either after they table or muck. To many shady asshats playing anymore.
Snap bets on the river are typically suspect, especially from whales.
hero says he can have flush...nah ,check call turn check river oop...no very flush representing
The persistent bluffers are showing me every time.
I have called a river bet, been told “Good call…” tabled my hand only to hear “… for me” and have been slow rolled the nuts so, there’s that!
Obviously I fist bump him saying “Good one. Ya got me real good” but after the 3rd or 4th consecutive time I hear “You’re good” and get shown the winner after tabling my hand to spare the rec player’s dignity… it starts to get a bit annoying.
Most of the times it’s due to a player thinking (If he folds, I had the best hand but if he calls… Fk! I must be beat!) accidentally successfully merging in a polarized spot
Sure if a player does that even once to me I'm not showing first lol. But if it's a rec/whale I'm always just tabling if they indicate they don't have crap
Smart guy this fella. I want him to train me immediately for a cheap price. Pls ?
f that. i want to see what they have. sensitive players shouldnt try to bluff if it hurts thier feelings when they get caught
I totally disagree. If a fun player doesn't want to show his hand, it's other story. You want to keep him happy, so that he sticks around, but with regs? You paid for that information and the reg is getting the info what exact combo you herocalled with, so why wouldn't you get the info on whether he turns his a highs/weak pairs into bluffs, what combo they decide to stab otr as well, etc.
I always look at this as some kind of angling/toxic behaviour/trying to make me a pushover. And, since I look very young, there were also regs trying to make me think that I was supposed to flip my cards over first, when I clearly wasn't.
If it’s a reg or a good player I’m always going to see their cards when I call. It’s a zero sun game where information is key, I’m not going to get willingly angled when I don’t need too.
Bart is specifically talking about not making fun players show their hands, NOT regs. With regs, especially ones you don't like for whatever reason, do whatever you want
@@henner2006 Yes, but he mentioned regs afterwards, saying that it's not such a huge info and he referred to the Garrett hand, where he had his opinion on that as well.
Zero sun????
@@Legianis Yes, with regs it doesn't matter. Show or don't. However, against the vast majority of people you play against the information just isn't that relevant. You'll never know his thought process and he'll never know yours. One combo played in a certain way in a certain hand doesn't reveal a strategy, if your opponent even has one. 99% of the time all you are succeeding in doing is slowing the game down. If someone says "good call" or "you're good" just show your hand and move on. The type of player who might slow roll you or accidentally realize they won after you show is not good enough to exploit you after seeing your cards.
Both played bad