Can you have too much damping factor?
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- Опубликовано: 3 май 2020
- Amp manufacturers tout their product's damping factor as if it were the Holy Grail, yet, can there be too much of a good thing? The Hegel integrated has a damping factor of 4,000-5 to ten times greater than most. What are the upsides and downsides?
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I’m not an audio technician, but I am an audiophile and hifi enthusiast. I do have a scientific background and can confirm that bass drivers, particularly large bass drivers are the most difficult to control and that’s where a high damping factor comes into it’s own. I recently upgraded my trusty 25 year old premium British integrated amp with a damping factor of 400 for a 5 times the price set of preamp and monoblocks boasting a damping factor of 2500. They were driving the same set of floorstanders containing 4 165mm bass drivers per cab that I used with my trusty 25 year old British integrated. The new amplification killed the bass. It was still there and still reached just as low, but, it disappeared almost as soon as it sound. My bass now lacked heft! I appreciate a tight well defined bass, but this was to an extreme which did not please my listening preference. I’m not sufficiently knowledgable to indisputably blame the phenomena on the high damping factor, but I suspect that was a major contributor. Fortunately, I’d used a trusty local bricks and mortar dealer, not purchased cheaply on line, the dealer swapped those monoblocks for a pair with a much lower, but still respectable damping factor, by the same manufacturer, but a very slightly higher price, which I was happy to pay, because that bass heft had been restored whilst maintaining a tight well defined and textured bass.
That 25 year old premium British integrated still sits proudly in my rack, should a substitution ever be necessary. I did have that dealer send it back to the manufacturer to have it refurbished. That was £185 well spent. Is any of you have any trusty aging components your thinking of up dating, look into refurbishing what you have, it might just save you thousands. If a component was class leading when you purchased it years ago, chances are, it can still hold it’s own.
When purchasing new components don’t be over influenced by technical specifications and reported measurements, make your purchase using your ears and wallet. Most of all, enjoy the music.
Thanks for this really good comment regarding DF and BASS.
I do own an Hegel H120 and it damped my music - especially the full bass produced by my Elac speakers to death.
There still was a good and clean bass - but it was not "musical" anymore.
I do use now an old harman / kardon HK6500 with sounds beautiful (!)
@@saschaseibert4932 glad to be of help. I can only speak from personal experience. But I guess ultimately, it’s down to personal preference.
Most of all, enjoy the music.
Thank you for the insights of damping factor Paul, stay well
Always so helpful, Paul. Understanding the positives and negatives of damping in our systems is quite helpful. I agree with your assertion that Hegel makes a great amp and one has to wonder about a 4K+ damping factor. You are always so respectful of other engineers and brands. It is an admirable trait. Keep up the great videos and by all means, stay safe and healthy. PS: looking forward to your new book(s).
I do own an Hegel H120 and it damped my music - especially the full bass produced by my Elac speakers to death.
There still was a good and clean bass - but it was not "musical" anymore.
I do use now an old harman / kardon HK6500 with sounds beautiful (!)
Hegel pulls this off using their proprietary feed-forward (as opposed to feedback) technology. Darko has a good video of someone from Hegel explaining this on his channel.
Thanks! You explained about the dumping factor, something new - something I didn't know!!!
It is important to appreciate how damping factor is defined. It is not defined as "the ability of the amplifier to control the loudspeaker", but as "the ratio of loudspeaker impedance divided by the amplifier's output impedance". And in this calculation, speaker cable resistance is added to the amplifier's impedance as an ohmic component. It is true that this ratio can be a measure of amplifier's control and it can be easily demonstrated by adding resistance between the amplifier and the loudspeaker. The more "parasitic" resistance we add, the more boomy the sound will come out. It's so clear and distinguishable that nobody can argue it's not happening. In a few tests I made with people attending, some actually liked the boomy sound with a damping factor of 10 better. They thought of the sound to be "fuller". However, it did have the effect of blurring the actual sound towards the effect of "single note bass". Not as bad as a badly designed loudspeaker, but something similar.
However, the loudspeaker impedance is not resistive (with the exception of a few loudspeaker designs that have tried hard to achieve this) and so the impedance varies with frequency. We know the effect of lacking speaker control is more pronounced in the lower frequencies and this is where the loudspeaker shows one or two impedance peaks going up to 20, 30 or higher Ohms. But of course, there are dips as well in many loudspeakers and a "nominally" 8Ohm loudspeaker may well dip in 5-6Ohms. So, the result of this division is not a constant number but rather a graph vs frequency. With a widely varied value in the critical two octaves from 30Hz to 120Hz. By instinct, I would propose that the variation of the DF in these low octaves may be a bad thing. And if the amplifier has an inadequate DF, the dips vs peaks in the speaker impedance may give a highly altered response in neighboring frequencies that may be a bad thing.
In addition, the voice coil resistance of a loudspeaker (typically 3-4 ohms) is also parasitic, because electrically seen it's between the amplifier and the voice coil inductance. So it adds 3-4 Ohms (!) to the amplifier output impedance, ruining the damping factor completely. So although indeed damping factor is often defined as "the ratio of loudspeaker impedance divided by the amplifier's output impedance", this definition doesn't say anything about how good an amplifier can control a speaker. Does anyone know why this definition is kept being used?
Edit: here they also explain this exact problem:
www.htforum.nl/yabbse/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=91523.0;attach=92213
and here too:
www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/damping-factor-and-why-it-isnt-much-of-a-factor-2/
True...which is why the speakers should be crossed at 60 Hz or so and let a subwoofer do the rest.
That takes away so much strain from the amp which in turn makes the speaker sound way better.
How does Hegel achieve that high number as 4000 damping factor , does they use more feed back or what is the secret, does anyone know this ?
For a damping factor I often use an analogy of pushing something with a stick vs. pushing it with a fishing rod.
People forget that just having speaker wire between the amplifier and the speaker will put a maximum cap on your damping factor, depending on the series resistance of the wire, to somewhere in the tens (i.e.
One of the greatest focuses on Hegel design. High damping factor, and no negative feedback at any point.
So they recommend using speakers of a few hundred ohms?
@@wallalo nice try.... Speakers with hundreds of ohms are often called headphones.....
Really? How do you know there's no negative feedback at any point? Really? Lol
W A Because they have explicitly told that they don't use it.
@@oysteinsoreide4323 mmmh 4000 DF is a number, but is a real number? Where are the measurements and how were they made? It looks so much like the .00000001% THD that everyone invent ...
Hegel is one of the best amps. I have H190 at home right now and i understand why it has so good reviews. The bass control the best i have heard along with great details
The way I understand it is you also want to match the amps damping factor with your speaker efficiency. For instance, most tube amps have very little damping factor and match well with efficient speakers. SS amps with a high damping factor usually work better with very resistive power hungry speaker systems.
I recently upgraded my amplification to a preamp monoblocks combination with a damping factor of 25000! Yes the bass in my bass heavy floor-standers was very tight and well controlled and well defined, but, compared to my old integrated amp with a much lower damping factor, the new amps left the musical reproduction with out heft, or body! I did not like it, all tho, I appreciate many people will prefer that leaner reproduction. I’ve currently got my old amp plumbed back into my system, whilst I experiment with alternative preamps to create the sonic signature I’m looking for.
Surely it's the dampening factor and not the fact that the whole amp is also completely different. Really extremely scientific and professional analysis and conclusion.
That was by far the dumbest thing I ever heard and everybody who had to read it is now dumber by a min. Of 50 IQ points.
Great video!
Damping factor can change loudspeaker acoustical behaviour and their sound on the end, drastically. Loudspeskers are complex electro acoustic mechanisms that respond to amount of electric control from amplifier which can chage tuning points of that system. If you have lose control, sistem will do more things on it's own, if you have to much, various electrical and mechanical resonances can appear inside that loudspeaker sistem with audible negativity.
High damping factor can be achieved with varous tricks inside amp circuits, it don't need to be global negative feedback.
Good question is, what is left of high damping factor after connectors and cables and their internal resistance.
I drive my speakers with Kenwood Basic M1 and M2. Both use Sigma Drive which help obtain 1000 of damping factor. 2 sets of wire for each speaker I uses AWG10 for the power output and a size 16 for the Sigma drive and if I disconnect those wire and just use a jumper to main, you can hear a difference, the bases tightens up and I can go more than one number on the max volume settting. It registers a higher loudness on my Simpson Model 884 Sound Level, Type S2A. 4000 is a big jump from 1000, Kenwood described its Sigma Drive in many papers published in the 80's.
Loving the ATC Monitors 👌🏻
Jon Woods Actives as well by the looks of it!
Saw those right off, probably the SCM 50’s ‘bookshelf’ model, as opposed to the tower models which I own a pair, in active config. Must be a local studio?
David G Perfectdaycalendar They are the active Domestic SCM50A Classic model and not the pro model surprisingly . I thought they would have went pro model for the studio, maybe they wanted the wood finish! Rather heavy for a bookshelf speaker and ATC supply a stand for domestic use. There is a tall stand for the pro versions that lifts them high enough for monitoring when seated behind a mixing desk.
kj bunnyboiler6353 yeah, perhaps the designer/owner of the studio wasn’t a fan of the all black pro versions. Maybe a price diff?
David G Perfectdaycalendar Absolutely, the wood finish on the Domestic cabinets is stunning. Especially the gloss walnut. Due to the additional cost of the veneer the Pro black versions are actually cheaper.
Alright I have a question, if a amp sends power down to the speaker through the positive line and then through the speaker and then back to the amp through the negative line.....
isn't it mostly converted to heat and wouldn't it make sense to separate the ground from the amp? Like a separate grounding block?
When I compare my Sansui AU-555A, using its amplification stage, and my XTZ Edge A2-300 power amplifier (and using the Sansui as a preamplifier), the Sansui with its damping factor of 60 doesn't control bass nearly as well, but when I switch to the XTZ with its damping factor well over 400, the bass is of course much tighter, but I lose a bit of midrange detail. Complex passages aren't as tidy with the XTZ. It's not a huge difference, but it's there.
Passive crossovers and speaker protection relays with dirty contacts are a major limiting factor.
Hi Paul, I was wondering what effect, if any, multiple drivers being in the same room as those being tested have on the speakers being tested.
Do they affect the impact or spl? Do they act as dampers by absorbing the pressure waves generated by the active speakers?
Thanks & greetings from Arizona.✌
Absolutely what i expected to hear Paul say, i.e. "but how you get there" is the crux of this question"
My (nearest to) perfect amplifier would, (i imagine) have Zero open loop feedback, zero localised feedback anywhere & a high very high damping factor. I have no idea how or if that can be achieved but i'd like to hear such a design & think it would be a good 'un. P.S. i'm told the very high damping factor of a certain famous switching amplifier & it's many OEM spin-offs that have an unusually high damping factor to put sy all else to shame, also has lashings of feedback & the reviews were "Meh"
Recycling everything back through the amp or subsections of, as in open loop & localised feedback gives good meaurements, high damping factor but to me, at least, seems theoretically imperfect & if it's done just to give an alluring 2000 to 3-thousand damping factor when, say 300 is more than ample, that's like going back to early 70's when folk bought power-amps particularly, on measuremenys alone. Back & before them, Pete Walker of Quad, bless his clever & innovative designers sole, spoke in interview how power amplifiers with the same messurements will all sound the same. My early (music-loving driven) the hi-fi walk's vintage valve amps sounded gr8 on the 'right' speaker (KEF Conceros & Quad ELS57's back then) ...with their lofty damping factors of 16 or little more !!! (I'm guessing)
Marketing power-amps with specs can misslead all but the experts, which i am not.
Do other manufacturers use interference noise cancelling, as Hegel does? It seems to work for them.
Love the equipment rack and the Studer console.
Sony Reverbs from 1990 in the rack still great, ACDC still took these vocal verbs out on tour before Axel Rose joined em
@@bradmodd7856 Nice limiters and compressors as well. The Studer consoles had some good built-ins but we still used a lot of outboards where I worked at the CBC.
The spec sheet of my amp says it has a damping Factor of 500 at 8ohm then what would be the damping Factor at 4ohm.
Are those dome midranges on those monitors back there?? I have Wharfedale EVO 4,2 with soft dome midranges and love them!
Gregory Tessensohn ATC SCM 50ASL
The tube amplifier as a triode single-ended without negative feedback have around 4.....10 damping factor and sound great. Is a different filosophy, amplifiing the voltage, the current current, or the power. A lot of vintage amplifier have around 50...80 DF. Often the damping factor is something to sell better.
atom xeon Can your amp accurately reproduce the bass of a kick drum?
Sure you can depending on the speakers.
Yes, low feedback generally sounds more sweet.
Hay Paul. Do I see a pair of British ATS SCM50 loudspeakers there?
Sorry for the wall of text.
Damping factor is a ratio. It's important to keep that ratio above 1:1, or a damping factor of 1. Higher is better, of course. But the damping factor of an amp is just the beginning.
In the numerator, you have the DC resistance of a driver (DCRe). That's it, nothing else. In the case of multiple drivers, you do multiple separate calculations.
In the denominator, you have the DC resistance of everything else going from the driver to the amp's output components. Everything in the path - crossovers, wire, Lpads, everything.
A typical 8Ω woofer will have a DCRe of about 6Ω - some will be much higher or lower. But 6Ω is quite typical. What you can do is remove the woofer from the box and disconnect it. You can measure the DCRe of the driver with any ohmmeter or multimeter. Let's say that we measured exactly 6Ω. And let's say we have an amp that is rated with a damping factor of 100 @8Ω. Which means the DC resistance of this amp is 8/100, or 0.08Ω. But that's just the amp. You can tape the wire that was connected to the woofer together to "ground them out". Now you can measure the DC resistance across your speaker wire at the amp (disconnect it from the amp first). Since there is no Lpad for the woofer, this is a measure of everything in the circuit with the woofer. You might find anything - it will vary wildly from one speaker system to the next. Let's say we measure 0.1Ω. That means the damping factor of our system is 6Ω/(0.1Ω+0.08Ω) = 6/0.18 = 33 1/3. This is a good ratio and ensures there will be almost no "ringing" caused by excessive woofer movement. This is what the damping factor does. When the signal ends, you want the driver to quit moving. But drivers store energy between the driver coil and the magnetic field. When the signal ends, this energy is released and causes the coil to move. This will make the driver keep moving back and forth after the signal ends. Grounding this signal out discharges this energy and stops the movement. Grounded out is like having a damping factor of infinity. Nothing is perfect. But the higher the damping factor, the faster we get rid of this extra energy and the sooner the driver quits moving when it ought not to be moving.
But let's say we measured the midrange driver at 8Ω and found the rest of the system has a DCRe of 11.5Ω due to the Lpad. Now the total damping factor of the system is 8/11.5 = 0.695. Uh oh, less than one. This midrange is subject to "ringing" due to poor impulse control - despite our amp having a damping factor of 100. Now swap our amp for a Hegel, with a damping factor of 4000 @8Ω, and let's see what happens. 8/4000 = 0.002Ω. Recall that our amp was 0.08Ω. So to calculate the total system Re, we take 11.5, subtract 0.08, then add 0.002. We get 11.422Ω. We can now calculate the damping factor for our midrange with the new amp: 8/11.422 = 0.7. And we see that we're still in trouble. But how can this be? Why did going from a damping factor of 100 to 4000 have such small effect? It's because the amp's DF is only a small part of the whole. Any reasonable damping factor for an amp should do you well. What is going to do much better is to eliminate any Lpad in series with the drivers. Lpads are damping factor killers, but some system can't do without it. Second, high quality, low resistance speaker cable is important, especially for longer runs. Crossovers matter - a lot. I once had a pair of speakers which put a big coil in series with the woofer as part of a 2nd order crossover. That iron core coil had a DC resistance of 1.2Ω - which cut my damping factor way down. Iron core coils are small, light and cheap, which is why you find them in speaker crossovers a lot - even in "high end" speakers. But iron core coils have a damping factor destroying high resistance. If you're willing to spend a few dollars (and it's really only a few dollars), you can replace them with heavy gauge, very large and heavy air core coils. When you shop for them, they will usually list their DC resistance specifically for this reason.
But remember that the DC resistance of coils in parallel with the driver are part of the crossover. That resistance is factored into the overall performance of the Xover. So by replacing coils with lower Re coils, you're also altering the performance of the whole Xover. Probably only slightly, but maybe profoundly.
I replaced those two iron core coils with massive, heavy iron core coils with an Re of 0.5Ω. Still DF destroying, but not as DF destroying as those little iron core coils. Every little bit helps. Replacing 16ga. wire with big, 10ga might reduce the Re by another 0.3Ω.
Getting the damping factor of all your drivers up over 1 is vitally important. But then again, getting it up over 1-10 (Opinions will vary on the exact number) will have negligible effect - almost certainly inaudible.
Is a high damping factor important in an amplifier - you betcha. But it's just a small part of the whole story.
And how about the tactical transducer(bud shakers), is we need amps with big damping factor for them??? For example: earthquake models like EARTHQUAKE QUAKE Q10B. The amp for that model is rated to 1400 of Dampin factor.
Hi Paul. Love your channel and have owned and loved some of your products along the way too. See you use ATC SCM50 active speakers in your studio. I'm waiting to test a pair as potential replacements for my Linn Klimax active speakers as soon as the corona virus will allow the next badge to arrive in Denmark😖 . Will PS Audio move into active speakers too? To my ears this concept has some strong advantages🤓
They're developing speakers with built-in amplification as we speak.
I think they've demoed them at a Hi-Fi show.
There's a video of Paul explaining them.
Since damping factor of an amp is specified as ratio of speakers impedance (usually specified for 8 Ohms) to out port impedance/resistance, it is important to note that an amp out port actually ends at the speaker in port. As clear edge case if the amp and the speaker are not connected by speaker cable then the amp cannot control anything in the speaker, because the resistance is near infinite.
So the effective damping factor is actually 8/(R(out_port) + R(speaker_cable)). For damping factor 4000 its R(out_port)=0.002 Ohms!
So if anyone wants to keep most of such amp damping factor it shall have the speaker cable with similar order resistance of both wires in sum.
6 foot speaker copper cable shall have 31mm2 cable section to have 0.002 Ohms resistance - think about 2 AWG copper cable. And this will reduce 4000 damping factor to only 2000. The more thickness above 31mm2, the greater effective damping factor.
I have the Kenwood Basic M2A amp with a damping factor of a 1000.
So far my experience from testing an admittedly limited amount of, but all very highly regarded amplifiers, including Hegel, Hypex and Purifi; the higher the dampening factor, the more sluggish/warm the amplifier sounded.
Those with lower, but still good dampening factor sounded more lean, clear and precise.
Don’t know if there is any actual relation or if it’s coincidence - but it seemed rather counter intuitive!
Yeah. Personally I found the 150-200 to be the sweet spot. Even 250 or 300 is still ok.
Dave Micolichek
Thank you. That has been my finding through extensive trials.
I never understood why...it makes sense now.
Damping factor in the thousands is relatively normal in the world of professional audio... such as those amps used to power the main monitors in recording studios.
I think my sub woofer doesn't need any more damping. Just that darn wall that keeps vibrating. I decided today, actually just a few minutes ago that I really like my sub woofer. Its getting a workout now playing Bass 305, Bass The Future. SVS PB-2000
Devialet has between 9500-10 000 df. I have a pair of D 800 Pro, and they are the best sounding amplifiers I ever heard
So how do they achieve this numbers technically?
Great question and great answer. Mine is, how much capacitance is too much?
Go "MAGNUS; ROBOT FIGHTER".
Hegel have obviously nailed it. All their amplifiers get rave reviews, out performing amplifiers at a much higher price point.
Although they are not cheap, they are bargains.
Feed forward error correction technology. Just like within the following amps:
- Benchmark AHB2 (speaker amp) benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier
- DROP + THX AAA™ 789 (headphone amp) drop.com/buy/drop-thx-aaa-789-linear-amplifier
.. and some more I'm not aware of (except Hegel of course and some Monoprice models).
And I'm pretty sure Paul's engineers are already working on the PS Audio implementation variant. Great stuff.
Eh…
What we all learned at high school, but what a lot of people seems to forget, is that a driver, like an electric motor, is driven by current (F = Bl x i).
When drivers are voltage-driven (with a low output impedance and a high damping factor):
* The sound is compressed.
* About 98% of the power is used to heat up the voice coil till the resistance is two times higher (at 3 dB power compression) till, in extreme cases four times higher (at 6 dB power compression).
* The voice coil of the driver is a ferromagnetic coil (the last one standing when air core coils are used in the passive crossover).
* Which is an inductance modulated by current, cone excursion, hysteresis and coarseness.
* It distorts the sound.
* It alters the frequency response, especially it lowers the high frequency output.
* The drivers acts as a microphone.
* Every resonance in the driver or cone shows up in the impedance curve.
* Every sound and every cone movement influences dynamically the impedance curve, especially cone vibrations, enclosure and port sounds and adjacent drivers.
* It generates a voltage (back-emf) on the input terminals.
* At resonance it is used to dampen the resonance, although with distortion.
* At other frequencies it distorts and alters the frequency response.
* Loudspeaker cables have influence on the sound.
When drivers are power-driven (an output impedance about the same size as the load), like in a tube and low feedback power amplifiers:
* All the effects above are halved.
* So more bass, more highs, lower distortion in the drivers, and less power compression.
When drivers are current-driven (a very high output impedance, like 400, 800 Ω or more):
* All the effects above are eliminated.
* Voice coils are still heated, voice coils are still inductors and voice coils are still microphonic, but do they not distort the current anymore, as the current is controlled by the amplifier. They only distort the voltage, which has no effect on the sound.
Almost all passive crossovers are designed with voltage-drive in mind. With power-drive they are not optimal. With current-drive they don’t work as intended. With current-drive you need to redesign the crossover filters or, even better, get rid of them, go active. As passive crossover filters suck up more than halve the amplifier power and are unstable with changing voice coil resistance (temperatures).
So
* The more damping factor the less control of the driver.
* The loudspeaker cable and the voice coil temperature take over the control.
* The less damping factor the better.
Yawn..........
@@bigelile07 Sorry, I had nothing news for you!
Finally I found someone with knowledge about current-drive and probably knows all what Mills and Hawksford, Ragnar Lian, Esa Meriläinen, Joe Rasmussen and Nelson Pass tell us about current-drive. And probably knows what KLIPPEL, the innovative leader in providing unique test equipment for electro-acoustical transducers and audio systems, tell us about current-distortion.
What's that incredibly beautiful mixing console?
Love my Hegel Röst with a damping factor over 2k 👍
What speakers does it power?
I just got H190 and i love it best amp i ever own with damping factor of 4000 i have never heard as good bass as Hegel H190 provides before
Some is good, more is better, and too much is just about right.
For small full range drivers you don't want a lot of damping factor. Otherwise they sound flat and tinny. Some speakers can sound really rich with an amp that lets them just a little loose.
@Dave Micolichek That isn't how it works necessarily, though it is partly correct. If you take a design like a transconductance amplifier which has the ability to alter damping factor at the turn of a knob, they can get to the point they can match or exceed the damping factor of that Hegel amp, or have nearly nothing. And for some speakers the high damping factor is desired, as a low damping factor causes the speaker to exaggerate and accentuate undesirable characteristics. It can also have a bad effect with some crossovers. Some speakers which have a high mechanical damping factor will not notice any difference what so ever, while others like full range and drivers with a very controlled mechanical damping factor (horn loads, t-line's) can sound immensely warm and rich when its set just right. The latter is what these little amps are generally built for. In those small cases it is possible to make the speaker actually unload from very little actual power when you turn to much to current loading.
This can be a great explanation for the boomy bass that used to be a product of the 70s big sound systems, most of those big amps actually had a damping factor that was quite low (less than 30 usually), and the speakers didn't have much insulation with a rather flimsy box, which would give the combination of lots of resonant speaker activity.
I have heard amplyfier that has DF >10000 and it sounded great. It is very small company in Russia called Prophetmaster audio. Very unusual amplifyer that has frequency band up to 8 MHz.
Wow........How Much The Price In Russian Audio Market ?
@@naleenperera1969 About $5500. Brandname of amp is Tierra.
There is no negative feedback in Hegel.
@Fat Rat You wish :p
@Fat Rat I'm also not so far from Hegel company headquaters. It is only about 500 km away...
Crown used to have a studio amplifier with >20k DF
What about “vintage gear “ with damping factors in the 10-30 range? Likely issues with speakers?
Likely a problem, yes. That's probably where the warm woolly sound comes from.
No problem. If you like what you hear, it's fine
Ever a risk of damage to speakers or just sonic/mechanical limitations? Accuracy sacrifices or speakers/drivers can’t get out of their own way and get overwhelmed? Thanks:)
@@codyhuber no actual risk, other than what @dave writes, loss of accuracy, if that. A lot of new tube amps don't have high damping factor as well.
Heck, I think you could say that the low DF of vintage amplifiers is part of their signature sound. Sound that many prefer.
Hegel one of the gretest amps out there h190 is intresting 😃
Some old Luxman amps have a df of 50 and sound wonderful.
I wonder why there are no amps with a sepperate feedback connector on the back for each speaker just like power supplies with a sepperate sense wire.
Usually the feedback line is hooked up to the output terminals internally. Done right it would be the ideal solution I guess. But if someone forgets to connect it it might break something lol
Kenwood's Sigma Drive System, used in vintage Trio KA-900, for example/
Damn Paul, just how advanced are you into the headphone game? I spot a Sonoma one system on your desk, and I'm jealous 😜
Paul isn’t, but the Octave studio is...
Professional power amp Crown K2
Hegel has its own proprietary local error correction called SoundEngine which results in very very high damping factor. I don't believe that 100 damping factor is enough because when people listen to Hegel integrateds in blind tests, they assume that they are listening to separates with very high price tags. Maybe higher price tag high end companies focus on their own costly technologies which result in low damping factor compared to Hegel but Hegel does this job with very reasonable price even in their entry model integrateds so damping factor works very well in their scenario. They've been using deep R&D when we compare them to most other HiFi companies where they don't have any patented technologies. As a very happy customer of Hegel, I'm just curious about using pure class A sound such as Sugden or PrimaLuna but they can't offer the ultimate neutral bass control (remember high damping factor) that Hegel provides within the given price. Most people choose Hegel over PS Audio amps when they test in local shops. I see PS Audio as a very successful DAC manufacturer not amps cause I don't believe Class D can be as resolving as Class AB designs. Although I adore Hegel amps, I don't like their DACs.
Amplifier damping factor is only part of the equation - and usually, the smallest part.
If you compute the *system* damping factor, including amplifier, cables and speakers, you will find that it's hard to do better than about 3.
You have a point, but actually the number is not 3, but rather 1.33. You cannot go higher than 1.33. The problem is Re' in the driver, or the DC resistance of the voice coil. In a 8 Ohm driver Re' is 6 Ohms, which is in series with everything. So 8/6 = 1.33 that's the theoretical maximum.
the Sansui 9090 has an unbelievably low dampening factor of 10... however people love the sound and i think it sounds great as well... i
why did Sansui make the dampening factor so low?
Tube amps usually have low damping factor. That is one of the reasons they sounds so relaxed in the bass.
I’m curious about this as well as I have a 9090.
Paul, are those ATCs in the background?
They are, indeed!
A very high damping factor has no meaning at all because the "Controlled" speaker is connected with series of serial resistance components from amplifier till speaker leads witch typically are: Amplifier Zobel network coil resistance + Amplifier Speaker Switch contact resistance (with additional protection relay contact if applicable), then amplifier terminal to speaker wire resistance + 2m to 3m Speaker cable resistance + Speaker Binding post to Speaker cable connection resistance + (the most influents on resistance between speaker driver and amplifier:) Driver cross over component which for a woofer would be at least one and most likely 2 coil inductors which has typically a ~0.5 Ohm, So only with cross over component Speaker damping factor is limited to a range of ~ 16. So it is meaning less to try and get 4000 damping factor which means: 5 milli ohm output impedance of an amplifier. it is not a real number as each contact on the way contributes ~ 50 milliohm per contact and Cross over components contributes ~500 milli ohm or higher..
Hello Mistres Pauls. I notioced the PRO VL compressor has VU meters on its. SOme compressoprs from dbx and other dont have VU meters. Soome skinds of odd. My frends told me belt drive record players seem to ahve bettwer wow and flutter and DIRECT DRIVES, untilt he belt wears out and there ar eno replqacements belts. THANKES YTOUES AND THUMBBS UPS!
Before worrying about wow from the turntable drive, one needs to fix the disc wow.
@@marianneoelund2940 Thankes you MINE GOODS FRENDS! Is the the artricle you were interested in...
What Impacts Wow and Flutter?
Both metrics are determined by a turntable’s mechanics and electrical power. This is why old turntables experience worsened wow and flutter: Their capacitor values drift. Over time, a turntable’s mechanical parts can wear down. Power spikes, too, can degrade a record player’s wow and flutter. Unfortunately, events which degrade wow and flutter are hard to pin down.
What Can You Do to Protect Your Turntable’s Sound?
It’s a good idea to invest in a surge protector. You can also talk to a vinyl enthusiast’s shop. These providers can fix up your turntable as it ages. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time to track down the parts needed to revitalize an old player’s wow and flutter.
Find a turntable with decent wow and flutter ratings, and make sure it’s well-protected from power surges and other damages. Don’t stress too much over your player’s ratings, though, as the low percentages held by most players don’t reveal too much distortion.
THNAKES YOUES AND THUM,BBS UPS!
I have a K2 crown amp 3000
Old amplifier like pioneer and Technics have Les than 80 dampi g factor an sound amazingly
How would you know this? I don't remember manufacturers back in the 70's and 80's giving out damping factor information.
@@dontcare563in some technics service manual from 70s and 80 say damping factor. Technics have approximately 50 to 80 do amping factor
@@dontcare563 see in this picture Technics su-v4 have 25 df in 4 ohm and 50 df in 8 ohm www.manualscenter.com/manuals/technics/suv4k-service-manual.html#.XrF2m-4pA0M
@@acue79 Good to know. Thanks
It’s the audio gremlins, Paul. 😎😂👻😈
Crown Macro Reference amps have a damping factory of 20,000!!! Highest damping factory of any amplifier i have ever seen!
Very interesting, I did not know that everything above 100 does not really do anything. I also think that it is a gimmick a bit like when they were selling Panasonic screens about 10 years ago that had 600hz picture. Then when you do the research, you find out that it is right, but it does not relate to FPS but internal measurements. Which really is cheating. A bit like making an amplifier 3000 watts and saying that it is better than the previous 2500 watt model.
Damping factor is defined by the internal resistance of the amplifier. With proper implementation of negative feedback, damping factor of an amplifier should not define its sonic caracteristics.
How does Hegel achieve that high number as 4000 damping factor , does they use more feed back or what is the secret, does anyone know this ?
They have their own proprietary local error correction called SoundEngine which results in very very high damping factor.
Paul, are those speakers PMC? ATC?
ATC
Maybe, but you CAN have too much ISO.
Loudspeaker cables make the difference between a damping factor of 100 and, say, 1000 moot.
THANKE SOYU Mine goods freinds. her eis the definitiones of moots...
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Definition of moot
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1a : open to question : debatable
b : subjected to discussion : disputed
THANKES YOTU AND THUBMMS , YOU ARE THE GOODS FRENDS!
Even the speaker voice coil wire itself has resistance that invalidates the effect of a very high amplifier damping factor.
@@ThinkingBetter If the amplifier has low damping factor, damping factor in speaker will make the damping factor even lower. Damping factor will be worse the more you put into the loop. Better begin with high damping factor. And then you end up at about 600 instead of 50.
Oystein Soreide Because quoted df represents a ratio between a fixed quantity say 8ohm and the amp output impedance a if you do a bit of math you will see that due to cable impedance, higher damping factors become insignificant. If the speakers were soldered to the amp then they might but they are not. www.eaw.com/education/amplifier-damping-factor-more-is-better-or-is-it/
@@oysteinsoreide4323 Sure, ideally the amplifier has an output impedance of 0 Ohms (means infinite amp damping factor).
Proof ps audio building is haunted
A damping factor of infinite is ideal but impossible.
Hello mine frends! My junk recevier circe 1978, gets louder and quiter by itselfs. It si capacotors or somethintg that can get foxed or is it tome to get something else. Is a Sansui with the concentrics volume knobs. Left channel is super super loud and I have it turned all the way off. THANKE YOU, YOU AARE THE HOINEST FRENDS ELECTRIC ELGNIEERS. THUMBS IUPS!
Unless your speaker is already over damped.
Mk Shffr How do you define “over damped”?
@@ThinkingBetter It would be somewhat subjective but generally a Q of less than 0.5-0.7. However, even with moderate Q there may be situations where current drive is preferable.
ATI amp have 5000 damping factor in 3 of their models
@Dave Micolichek what if ran balanced connections closer and amp is much close to the speakers? just thinking out loud
@Dave Micolichek thank you
How much damping Factor is best for Bass transducer's
I think there are different ways to measure it, in the same way there are several ways to measure watts. Not always easy to compare 2 brands!
4000 in damping factor is much higher than what you need! I think there are other things with an amplifier that are more important than that!
That should have said 2500 NOT 25000!
Back emf... Why do people ask such silly questions? "too much" should be answering his own question
What's the name of this book you thought the other one was true think again lol
That's why you should put a snub filter in your speaker are you putting them in yours? Why you don't have any smc150a's what you could do with their Paul
Thos ATC's should be at least a metre from the wall.
Sounds like there some Damping Factor ghosts in the room Eh Paul !!!
Decided to remove the comment. This level of discussion is just not suitable for RUclips.
Is it possible for a poorly designed dampened system to sound dead, boring and lifeless?
Sure, just as it's possible for a well-designed, highly accurate system to sound dead, boring and lifeless. In fact many if not most listeners prefer a little distortion and coloration added, to make the sound more interesting.
IMO, from personal experience, I think around 150-200 is the sweet spot.
The legendary CROWN STUDIO REFERENCE amplifier has 20,000 damping factor!!!
But that has negative feedback, it looks like on the scematic in the manual.
So many Hegel fan boys descending on Paul here.
He is absolutely correct that a damping factor of 40000 offers no more benefits than a DF 100+
Hegel know this but too many reviewers focus in on it as if its a holy grail.
For instance Class D can have a very high damping factor but although design is improving and offering loads of watts for the buck, they still don't sound better overall than many good A/B amps.
There is so much more to amplifier design and sound than damping factor.
Hegel are not helping themselves by allowing this myth to be propogated by some ill informed reviewers touting huge damping factors being one of the reasons their amps might sound "better" than something around 100 or so.
Also let's stop demonising negative feedback, it has its place when its properly implemented.
Hegels sound engine doesn't re-invent the wheel, its just another design, a clever one granted but although I like the sound of the two Hegel amps I have listened to and in my opinion they compete well in their price bands.
Its because they offer a different sonic flavour not a better sonic flavour. That's all there is too it.
I hear it said that they better amps well above their price band, that is a ridiculous thing to say.
Value for money and sonic performance is a complex, highly subjective and deeply personal equation.
I'd say to Hegel owners, congratulations on your choice, if it works for you thats brilliant.
Id say to Hegel fan boys, Calm the fcuk down its starting to feel an Elon cult thing.
Funny thing that Paul says anything over DF 100 contributes nothing, yet builds his own amps with DF of 350. What is the message here?
hegel amp over 4000DF is shitty, unuseful.
In this video Paul shits on his direct competitor ( Hegel )