You're forgetting that volume is a cubic function. A 2 meter cube has a volume of 8 cubic meters a 4 meter cube has a volume of 64 cubic meters. I served aboard aircraft carriers that were about 330 meters long and with hull that was relatively narrow and we had over 5000 people aboard. Most people can't properly visualize just how big a mile long (1600 meter ship) would be. A ship in that range could hold 100,000 people easily and in comfort. Modern sports stadiums hold that many people in close quarters and they would be dwarfed by a mile long ship.
good point. and particularly when you think about the dominion who have no care for crew comforts. the real question is, with 24th century tech how big a crew do you really need?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Just one crew member is needed and hope that the enemy doesn't try to capture the vessel. And that's even with our technology. Also, why does the original Enterprise's (NCC-1701) computer sound like a relay computer when NX-01's computer looks far more advanced?
Generally Star Wars 1600 ISD, B5 and others took into account the cube sizing for crew compliments though writers did exaggerate. ISD at 1600 had something like 50,000 and then modular bases, walkers etc on board. Several times the Galaxy class was referenced to having a huge shuttle bay capacity which would likely take up a sizable amount of overall volume, not forgetting all the facilities onboard and areas we never see. The biggest issue is one, missing the size chart at 6 mins that has both ships listed and two, thinking the ship was built in a rush to deal with the Alpha Quadrant when construction time of a ship like that would take a vast amount of time possibly over the 2 year length of the dominion war. More likely it was built in response to something in the Gamma Quadrant where the Dominion is from.
@@effervescence5664 I would think the various Dominion Battleships were pre-existing designs from the Gamma quadrant. With all the R&D already done its was just a matter of building them, which probably began as soon as the Dominion secured Cardasian space since the ultimate goal was to conquer the entire Alpha quadrant. Their construction was probably sped up once the Romulans entered the war
Not to mention that 4km variant idea would need a crew of probably more than ten thousand to keep it running. And that’s not a Jen hadar job that’s a vorta or client species job. That would be an unacceptably massive investment of skills to maintain such an enormous ship for about no gain over making several of the 1.5km ones. And yeah the Enterprise D probably had a crew of 1000, but let’s assume half of those had a spouse, and a quarter had a child. Which pushes that closer to 1800, plus support staff who probably aren’t Starfleet crew like Guinean, the barber, and the school teachers plus any attached science teams. The actual capacity is probably more like 1,900. And they’re not even filling out the decks, most of those extra people are families of crew, so they’re living together in the same, albeit larger, quarters. And there was an episode about evacuating like 15k people. There wasn’t a concern about carrying that many, just how long it would take to load them up. And given its size I do believe a galaxy could carry 15 thousand, at this point 17 thousand, if not comfortably, then at least without stress. A galaxy decked out with barracks as a dedicated transport could transport a ludicrous amount of troops if it wanted to. Like probaly in the 20k+ range for idk how long.
If you take another look at that size comparison chart, there are 4 Dominion ships there. Battle Cruiser 762m Battleship 1282m (twice the Galaxy Class's 642m plus 2 meters) Dreadnought 1500m Planetary Assault Ship 4500m (probably the one seen over Cardassia)
so the scale of the cruiser is pretty vague. ex astris-scientia puts it at 600m its impossible to know because it has no windows so no points of reference. i personally prefer it at 600m because that means it actually is a battlecruiser being of a similar size to battleships but lighter in construction. i don't know why there's a 1282m and a 1500m one that doesn't to mean sufficient difference, its either 1 or the other. either makes sense though since the 1282m would still have more overall mass than the D'deridex.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Although scaled to Defiant, birds of prey and Cardassian ships, the cruiser could even be near 900 metres, perhaps. Obviously, the Battleship, must be larger still.
The d'Deridex class would handle anything the Dominion had- they are huge, powerful warships that will eat up anything that can't flee. There's a debris field in the Omarion Nebula that would like to chime in.
Erm, a D’deridex is no where near as powerful as you make it out to be, a Galaxy class outguns them, handily. For point of reference a D’Deridex has according to sources 6 disrupters, dispute the fact that most shots would suggest it only having one with the occasion VFX error as it fires from running lights, by contrast a Galaxy comes with seven phasers. The D’deridex has 2 torpedo launchers, however the Galaxy’s burst fire in its two essentially gives it ten standard torpedo tubes. Put it simply there’s a reason Tomalok brought two when he went up against the Enterprise
16K Jem Hadar on a battleship no prob as they're not as picky cramming it as they are on Starfleet vessels. Battleship would have many, MANY transporters to dump everybody planetside within minutes alongside shuttle/transports. The thing is that's a LOT of power going to those transporters. Ship would have to be in a certain state of vulnerability to accomplish mass troop transport. I don't care how good Dominion scientists and engineers are you can't outright break one of Scotty's prime rules of engineering:"You canna break the laws of physics.(But. You can go AROUND them:)"
The Jem'Hadar Battleship is just an artificially enlarged Dominion Dreadnought in much the same way that the K'Vort is just a blown-up B'rel. It's called "Paramount are cheap-asses" continuity syndrome. Look at them, they're identical in every way except scale.
I assume nobody is probably reading this, but i would just want to throw in, that a ship like the Galaxy for example, may have a huge internal volume and that 1000 people are almost negligible compared to it, BUT the ship is not hollow. There are generators, bulkheads, protected plasma lines, energy storages (battries), a Matter-Antimatter power plant (!), huge deuterium tanks and tons of other stuff. I always assumed that the actual living space on such a vessel (especially a big Star Wars Ship or comparable sci fi ship) would be quite small compared to the overall volume of that ship.
Personally, I think the Battlecruiser, is bigger than the Galaxy-class, per what we see onscreen, by a fair margin - over 860 meters, maybe? But the Battleship, is bigger still. Unlikely to be over a mile, but still.
yeah to engage in any fantasy you need rules be that in sport or storytelling. when you establish a rule and then break it without any consideration, you break the fantasy/game and people stop 'playing along'
Star Trek writers and observers have never appreciated how many troops you would need to pacify and occupy worlds that may contain billions of people. You would need not hundreds, nor thousands, nor tens of thousands, nor hundreds of thousands of troops. Rather, you would need on the order of a million troops. The declared capacity of most Trek ships, typically less than 10,000, is simply not up to the task of planetary invasion. You would need a hundred Galaxy class ships to carry enough troops just to take a planet the size of Earth. That having been said, I assume that spectacularly odd size changes are FX errors, and in that aspect I agree with you.
Yeah, predictably there's errors and sometimes, 'We just don't have new models' to suit scenes, but if you want a planet to *submit* you could probably do worse than *seem* like you might have an army of millions of Jem'Hadar in orbit even if you didn't actually have that many.
When I drew up my fan ship, I put/hid two of these semi-circular towing collars on it, like the one's on the tug in the old Starfleet Technical Manual, to account for things like needing to turn it into a planetary hospital, or conversely, invasion platform. Still, after reading your post, I think you're right; it would take millions of Marines. Now I have to calculate how many Marines a tow pod could hold. lol
The only counter(s) I can think of to this logic would be that the invading force is able and willing to cross moral/ethical boundaries that we generally don't (WMDs, orbital bombardment, etc). Maybe its just a given that there's always a percentage or two of the population that becomes turncoats, and they're easily armed with cheap, mass produced weapons and personal communicators. Or, maybe its just the threat of "turning off the power" and the population would rather give up than deal with the loss of nearly all their creature comforts. It really does seem like a whiff on the part of the writers.
In the episode What You Leave Behind the producers admitted on the DVD extras they screwed the scaling of the Dominion ships so I would say it's safe to ignore the 4000 meter claim.
At the time of the battleship unveiling, it was a revelation. The Dominion didn't seem to HAVE truly big ships, they didn't necessarily need them. Their motif and tactics were towards large fleets of small ships with cruisers. They had conquered and pacified their region of the Gamma Quadrant. Because they had tactical tech even greater than in use in the alpha quadrant, and vast legions of disposable troops, this made sense. Lots of little ships, and some cruisers, all of which were very dangerous for their mass, and perfectly willing to make suicide runs. This seemed to be an 'established' thing, so it was a surprise when the battleship appeared at all. Jake Sisco made it pretty clear with his "twice the size and three times as powerful as a Galaxy Class starship", yes, spoken words ought to take priority over special effects. I mean, sure, there is wiggle room in Jake's statement, but clearly, the battleship is meant to be comparable in size to the Galaxy class. As said, at the time, for me at least, that revelation was surprising enough. Indeed, I thought it was twice the MASS, meaning the ship was probably only about 30% or so longer than the Galaxy, like maybe 850 meters in length, not twice the length. The 3X as powerful addition made sense as well; the Dominion battleship is a pure warship with arguably superior technology, the Galaxy Class is a multi-role vehicle. Starfleet 'doesn't have warships' after all. Now, obviously, this isn't what we saw on the screen, but, I would suggest: 'so what?'. The special effects guys on the "Star Trek" franchise in general are infamous for screwing with the scale of various ships, and that goes double for DS9. And even more so for the Defiant which had like three different model sizes for whatever effect the special effects guys wanted, and tended to look like almost like some super-duper fighter next to giant ships. The battle of the Defiant against an Excelsior class ship shows that, where the Defiant is dwarfed by the saucer section, which is certainly NOT the case in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. I love Trekyards, but one simply cannot take the Defiant seriously as some ruler to measure something else as they did in their episode of the Dominion Battleship scale. If someone did, it would make sense to assume that the Defiant is only half the length it should be, at least if it was in battle with the ship in question. Also, as someone pointed out on that Trekyards episode comments: a ship 4500 meters long completely eliminates the value of the Deep Space 9 station. The Dominion could just park and retrofit, if necessary, a battleship wherever they liked, and use IT as a station.
Yeah, sorry but I will take what is shown multiple times on screen over Jake Sisko's military analysis of the ship. Bigger doesn't always mean better either, the ship could just have a massive cargo hold for mechanized military equipment and a large barracks for tens of thousands of ground troops. We really don't know.
I could accept that perhaps there was a few behemoth sized ships operating within the Dominion for safeguarding the movements of the Founders themselves whenever they're relocating to a new home planet perhaps(although that in itself would be a pretty obvious target) but for the general structure and philosophy of the Dominion along with their attitude towards "solids" and downright disregard for even their own servants/slaves/subjects, it just doesn't make sense that the Dominion would bother investing the time and resources somewhat needlessly in turning out massive ships like that in large numbers and would more likely be a very rare ship for something more interesting other than just adding some extra punch to a battle. By mindset alone, the Founders simply clone their enslaved loyal God worshipping subjects. They see them as disposable, beneath them, have a distrust and almost hatred for all things "solid". We see this in the way they sacrifice waves of Jem'hadar without any regard to their survival other than how it may impact on their own welware should they all die and lose before defeating the perceived enemies. To that end we see Dominion warship design produced with a similar philosophy, which is to produce strong capable fighting units cheaply and quickly just like the Jem'hadar themselves, but with that same "disposable" philosophy whereby waves of these smaller cheaper ships can be thrown at the enemy and sacrificed if needs be with reckless abandonment and disregard to their crew. So yes, Imho there was undoubtedly some large warships in the Dominion but I'd guess very rare, not for front line service unless backs to the wall with few options left, and more for serving very specific and far more important roles that hanging about with the common sacrificial plebs. To that end, a Jem'hadar Cruiser would be the far more likely and numerous workhorse for fleshing out large Dominion battle fleets with a bit more punch but with that same sacrificial attitude. Some colossal sized ship... it would just be far too precious and off-script for the Dominion to produce and then sacrifice something of that nature for some typical territorial expansion clashes Imho other than for overseeing and coordinating the battle itself for a few Founders themselves without directly getting involved yet offering adequate protection for such "Godly" occupancy.
Sizing based on DS9 footage is and always has been a wash. The CGI and SFX departments never cared too much for consistency there. I mean, just look at the Defiant. That ship added and removed decks at will, changed size from 70 to over 170 meters in length, changed weapon placements...... If we are trying to reach a consensus here, then i'd say ask the designer of that ship. And if he/she isn't available or made up their mind yet (or ever), then pick whatever fits your scaling factors the most. For me, she always fell into the mile class category.
I figure a lot of the Enterprise D volume is taken my machinery, equipment, storage areas, huge structural components, power distribution, power capacitance, and who all knows. Plus plenty of space for diplomats, refugees, terraforming equipment, and any thing else the Federation could need a massive ship for.
I MUST totally agree that just a Ship like The Enterprise-D have ridicolously much place in it. One Time Commander Riker sayd in the earlier Series that placing +15 000 people to the 1K Crew in the Ent-D would be no problem, so in the Ship like the Jem H-BS could easily fit up to 40 000 if it would have just not more then 1500m and what if it would have 4500M? Then 120 000, maybe? OMG. But we should not forgot, that the Dominion thought differently from the Alfa+Beta quadrant Humanoids. For them 120K+ in 1 J.H.-BS would be perfect in case of a invasion Force. 1 Jem.H-BS with 4500m would fit against 3 Rom.D´deridex BS, so it would make sense.
The Dominion has been around 10,000 years. Instead of looking at the actual show and visuals from canon and noting there might just be different classes of Dominion Ships of similar design, it is logical to conclude the 10,000 year old Dominion made their Main Battleship around countering the Romulan Star Empire's main Battleship specifically, and that is why all Dominion Ships are the same size.
One thing people always need to remember. The people and directors in charge of the visuals care a great more deal about how the scene LOOKS over actual scale. They have actually said this. So, for anyone saying, "this scene shows the ship being x size, next scene y size" please be aware the picture you are seeing has director and art enthusiast interference and objects might not be the size they appear to be. Use published official guides for more accurate scaling (even those can cause confusion as no one really put a size to a ship, and the reuse of models as for a long time models were expensive).
Shadx27 exactly. In Halo 2 Anniversary the CAS-class Assault Carriers dwarfs everything around them even more so than they should. (5.6km compared to 490m, 1200m and 1800m ships) It made a beautiful shot of the Covenant’s power though.
So the Dominion never built the behemoth Battleships until they got to the Alpha quadrant and then was trapped there with no reinforcements? None could have came through the wormhole, whether on screen or not, before the replicating minefield?
The easy answer. The Battle Ship vs Valiant was one size. Then the battle of Cardassia those super big ones were an even bigger version. Plan and simple
Interesting video. The chart you show has four Dominion ships: the battlecruiser, the battleship, a "dreadnought" at 1500m and a "planetary assault ship" at 4500m. The chart is claiming there are different, huge ships, not that the battleship is 4500m.
isnt that huge ship in orbit of Cardassia a different ship altogether? a Defender class if i remember correctly compared to the generic battleship name?
16,000 people isn't really enough to invade a planet. I mean Earth alone in 2022 has about 28 million soldiers world wide (give or take a few hundred thousand) The Dominion secured the entire Gamma Qaudrant, they would have met races with vastly larger armies than what we typically see in Star Trek. A 4,500 meter upscaled vessel solely designed as a mobile fortress complex for the purpose of strategically deploying large armies and vast quantities of supplies could be a viable move for them and they would have the resources to do it. That's just a thought though, I know it is a size error. :P
The Enterprise-D had 1014 people on board in Remember Me. Not crew, people, including the civilians and everything. The tech manual said it could accommodate 6500 comfortably, and 15000 in an emergency. Based just on deck space, the Galaxy class could easily accommodate well over a hundred thousand people. I assume the environmental systems would suffer, but still. In terms of how many the battleship can accommodate,jem'hadar dont sleep or eat, and they prefer to stand. Half a million troops isn't out of the question. Also remember that size is not length. Something that is twice as long has eight times the volume. Obviously, the battleship doesn't have a common design with the Galaxy. I'd assume that Jake, not being a tech person, would use length. Even at "only" double the length, that still makes it insanely vast. It's a poor means of projecting power. It's a bit like the death star has the volume of millions of star destroyers. It's a much better projection of power to have as many battle cruisers as you could get with the materiel (I'd guess four at a bare minimum), which you can deploy and manoeuvre independently than to have one huge, ungainly target.
the galaxy class be a fearsome warship given the right tweaks. strip out all the useless junk and out fit with a secondary warp core and additional power generators along with a whole fighter wing. give it a crew of 2000. defensive ablative armor secondary and primary shielding offensive 16 phaser arrays pulse phasers for point defense or broadsides. micro quantum torpedo launchers only quantum torpedoes 4 launchers (2 fore, 2 aft) allow for burst fire quantu torpedoes
When I decided to go into Blender and recreate the then battleship/now carrier I'd drawn up when I was 12 (it's okay to laugh) it came to 1363 meters and that was large enough to give me pause; even with the last 60 meters or so being just the engines trailing aft of the actual hull. 4500m seems nuts; that's a space station, not a ship. Great video; feels like a discussion even though it's a monologue.
So did not one stop to think that the 4k one was just the founders own ship and as such was much bigger than the normal version or even a command and control ship and such bigger than standard.
@@lordradam5409 I’m a few years late. As an example, in the Babylon 5 episode “Severed Dreams” there was a major battle featuring several Earth Alliance destroyers. The on screen visuals show the destroyer Roanoke being destroyed by a ramming attack. Later, the destroyer Agrippa was blown up in a bombardment. However, the dialogue when the Agrippa was destroyed reveals this was actually the Roanoke. It’s still debated on whether the names from the visuals or dialogue in these scenes is cannon.
Just because a ship is of a certain size, does not mean it is livable. Besides the saucer section, how much was able to be walked through easily or safely? The nacelles for instance I am sure were off limits to the public or even non-engineering.
I'm with you on that. I see know reason for the Dominion to build ships 10 times bigger than a Galaxy class by the looks on the chart. To build a ship that big would be a waste for the time it would take when you could build a lot more smaller ships in less time and get them out their where they are needed. One of the many mistakes the Germans made in WW-2. The Tigers took to long to build.
if we jump to Star Wars for a second, the Acclamator Assault Ship we see in Attack of the Clones is about 860 meters (i forget the exact specifications), and is stated tocarry a max of 16000 troops...yeah i think its a good guess that if a Dominion Battleship is partially designed for troop transport, 16000 is a good low guess, tho i'd say it could carry more
voltar said god is not on the side of the biggest battlions but on the better shots as for the enterprise galaxy class has 1000 crew but can carry up to 3 to 4000 combat troops or settlers if needed so when the dominion built a battle ship maybe it had troops for planetary conquest as well
9:34 Well... at first you could argue that they have pretty big "machinery" on board, for all the basic ship functions and also for the multi role purpose, the galaxy class is build for. then you have dedicated working decks with laboratory and other working stuff wich is there if needed. i guess the crew and the people basically hang around in a pretty limited part of the ship, manly the living quarters, the engineering, the bridge and whats else is necessary for the everyday business. like a mall complex with an residential building, Stadion and an convention center, alone in space. huge complex but most of the space is most of the time empty.
BTW and as I'm sure you know, the on-screen scaling within Star Trek, especially TNG and DS9 were ridiculously inconsistent where almost every ship and space station visually doubled and tripled and shrank from one scene to the next lol! For the love of God don't use episode screenshots as size comparisons! 🤣🤣
It's like the Empire's Super Star Destroyers. From a design stand point it probably is impractical, but the Dominion doesn't care as long as it terrifies their enemies.
UHH, YEAH, THIS has been a problem for me for YEARS. What's more, I've always been miffed by the size differences between TOS ships and later series' ones. Bigger and bigger and bigger and now a ship is like 20 times the size of THE GODDAMN PLANET KILLER. We have lost the plot, people!
Some large ships is fine, like the Galaxy class. The issue is when ever ship is huge. My pet peeve, no peeve is the wrong word. The ship that drives me insane is the Mega-class Star Dreadnought form Star Wars. I hate that ship on so many levels.
It is stated in TNG that the galaxy class can transport 5000 people, this on top of it's crew, and those 5000 are exemplified by troops or colonists, 2 groups that also require a lot of equipment to be brought along, sure this will tax the ships recreational systems, holodecks, 10-forward, arboretum, gyms... But such mission are not designed to be super long term. So a crew of a little over 1000 plus some family members, let's say around 1500 total, could live comfortably for those long term deep space missions intended for the Galaxy class.
Also. The titles "Planetary Assault Ship" would potentially be transporting several troop brigades, it would also have to carry, ground vehicles, turrets, and other supplies. Question in wondering is whether the ship has atmospheric flight capability to off load its troops and cargo or was it beaming or it used shuttles?
thats an interesting point. the jem'hadar fighter does have that capability. weather they build larger ships with provision for planetary landings?... the spaceframe of the battlecruiser definitely can't but the battleship is more robust although you'd need some serious landing gear. i think really more important is having large landing craft. an example from star wars would be the separatist c99 lander. but definitely something larger than the shuttles we see.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I would like to think there were ultimately two different ships. The 1500m ship was a combination "Battleship" and a fleet support vessel. It would be loaded with weapons, armor, and shields. Also it would have to rely on massive power reactors and fuel. The larger 4500m vessel would of been rare and only used to either eradicate single handedly an enemy planet by planetary bombardment and/or planet takeover by launching ground forces.
Oh good grief! it could be possible for the Dominion to have a 4.5 km sized ship but it would be few and rare to non existant. Once the Founders had some concrete info on ship numbers for the Klingon, Romulan, and Federation it would've been more obvious to figure out what they wanted/needed to fight their foes. They/The Founders SUCESSFULLY infiltrated all three of the major superpowers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and not in lowly positions but Admiralty and Commanders of fleets and Taskforces. Where the Alpha and Beta were split up between these three groups and the smattering of other governments and groups not a part of the big three, the Dominion had nearly ALL of a quadrant (Gamma) to itself and all the resources could then be poured into a war effort. Still say it was a FUBAR moment of the visual effects department because of how many inconsistencies of visual size and character lines. 2x the size of a Galaxy class is a LARGE SHIP. Anything larger than 1.5 Km is insane especially when the Dominion showed a preference to using swarm tactics with ships. Remember it only took 3 fighters ships of the dominion to take down a Galaxy class and those ships were comparable to the Defiant, at least in size. Why build this monster sized 4.5Km ship when you could have 3x or more of 1.5Km ship that is still larger than anything you will be up against and you keep more options open to you by having multiple ships to perform multiple tasks, instead of this one behemoth of a ship committed to one tasking at a time. Just makes more sound tactics to have more options available to you than not by having multiple ships vs fewer larger ships
@@hanshawks5088 I guess it depends on population numbers and size, but that sounds _insanely_ optimistic. I would have gone with 100 to 200 Million at minimum for a planet like Earth.
X2 the size and ×3 the firepower seems plausible for a command ship in the Dominion. The Galaxy class was never designed as a dedicated battleship, but a heavily armed explorer akin to the constitution class
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, I remember the episode. Nog gets a big head from flattery, and stupidly follows the Red Squad CADET's orders. When Nog being an actual officer should have taken command, ordering a return to Starfleet. I simply don't recall the fly-through of the battleship.
What if they built a big huge battleship when they still had access to the wormhole and then with the strain on resources caused by being cut off from the rest of the dominion had to scale it down later in the later part of the war? Just a though, great video my friend keep up the good work.
we'd have seen or heard about it beforehand. although im sure if the dominion did have access to the gamma quadrant, there may well be an argument for them to have ships that big. but again to what end? whats the point of having such a large vessel when 1500m is plenty. equally we don't know who the dominion were fighting on other flanks. perhaps the borg?
The Jem'Hadar carrier from Star Trek: Dominion War is the largest I've ever seen. It can hold thousands of ground troops for planetary invasion and boarding parties
Compared to the Galaxy class, it's 1,600m long, the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. The very big, Breen-dwarfing ship was probably a planetary assault carrier. Ouch.
Could a post dominion war starfleet beat a dominion. Where starfleet uses androids to build ships quickly. And possibly use androids and holograms to man the ships. Those adroids at Utopia Planeta built a shit ton of ships to evacuate the rhomulans.
Yes it is. And you could justify by looking at the JH's use of so many smaller ships. They truly needed a way to support and repair all those small ships without having t send them home through the wormhole, and that justifies a lot of the BS's bulk as a fleet tender.
As little *use* as it may be, I've often sorta handwaved some of the scale discrepancies in Trek as potentially less about that being the best way to build something than as ...deliberate deception than perhaps style/propaganda choices. It might not fool any sophisticated sensors, but civilian populations will probably tend to think more in pictures than energy signatures. If there's a feared utterly overwhelming juggernaut that looks about like a more modest but still big ship, maybe it makes populations see the images and feel there's no point resisting, even if you're only sending a battlecruiser or two. (It's not the greatest theory, anyway, but morale and propaganda might count for something, especially when it comes to wandering Klingon bird-of-prey sizes. )
Wow, first---last time I was this early, the Big Bang ate my homework..... Okay, now for a couple of quibbles about the Galaxy class. Not sure your ideas about the crew numbers are right. I'm quite certain that the 1000-ish number is for full crew and complement, including mission specialists, scientists, families, and Mr. Mot. The higher number of 4-5000 describes the ships maximum evacuation capacity--this info is from the TNG Technical Manual, which also served as the writers' guide, btw(unlike the DS9 Tech Manual, with it's ugly ships and size discrepancies lol). That said, I totally agree with you tho when you say the Dominion ship doesn't need to be 4000m long to be a troop transport. Obviously just a little special-effects goof.
i agree that those are the official numbers. but if that were so the ship would be incredibly empty. 1000 is a rough estimate because personnel come and go quite frequently. and i think most crewmen, even enlisted probably had families on board as well e.g: chief O'Brien. so even if we say half the crew had families: spouse and child thats 1000 civilians. so maybe in the region of 2000ish.
There are a number of sections of a Galaxy class ship that are empty space as they were intended for future upgrades. Add on top of that the fact that heavy automation would take up lots of space as well. The designers may have also had an eye towards it being a heavy troop transport which would make a lot of sense.
Crew complement: 1,000-6,000 (normal complement depending on assignment) 15,000 (maximum capacity) RUclips wouldn't let me comment with the link but, it's from Memory Alpha fandom wiki.
The "very empty" part makes me laugh, because basically it says that the Galaxy -- and more so any of the "every new generation of ship gets 4x the volume" dipshit escalation is basically the sci-fi equivalent of the North Korean Ryugyong Hotel.
so true, the galaxy class only having 1014 people onboard means, that the ship is a ghost ship. Most of it would be empty!! Especially since most people are crowded around specific areas. All the lights you see through the windows means that people do not turn off their lights at all when they leave for work.
With Enterprise-D having some nearly 9 million m² of habitable deck-space and presuming you have 4,000 people on board, each with 50m² of living space, you still would end up with *less* than 10% of the available space being used for habitation. Ships of that size and beyond are incomprehensibly large.
There are gem hadar fighters dominion battleships the cruiser is the battleship same thing but the battle monitors are massive. I'm not sure if any dominion ships are called gem hadar apart from the fighter
The Galaxy's full complement, crew, civilians, etc., is repeatedly stated to be about 1000 in the series, and it is absolutely empty. I have long suspected the Galaxy was really designed as a colony ship, meant to transport prefab colonies, including several thousand colonist, to new worlds. It certainly has the space. Converted to a troopship, including heavy equipment, I would expect it could carry tens of thousands. The Dominion Battleship isn't twice the size of a Galaxy, it's twice the length, eight times the volume. Used for troop transport, it can probably deploy a quarter million troops. It suffers the same weakness as the Star Wars super ships. Huge resources concentrated in one place. We don't have good stats on it, but it would be a prime target for attack. Ambush it with cloaked ships while its shields are down with a few dozen torpedoes and all those troops and crew and resources put into building it are gone.
i agree with the galaxy class. as i recall Andrew probert does say that he envisaged a crew of 4000-5000 but that would be too hard to represent with extra's which is Bizzare because the TOS enterprise is chock full of extras. regarding the scale of the dominion battleship i agree especially because you can really pack in jem'hadar. and it is a lot of resources in one place. but... i don't think that many were ever built. less than a handful, and really i don't think they fit with dominion doctrine of using attack ships and battlecruisers. i don't think such a behemoth is their style they like their stuff to be expendable and a battleship isn't.
true but when the dialogue is consistent. and when that visual cannon is 1 shot. the rest fits with the dialogue, i think we must rule it as anomalous.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I agree with the above comment. I'll take what I see on screen over a military analysis done by Jake Sisko. Bigger doesn't always mean better either, it could have had a massive barracks for thousands or even tens of thousands of troops as well as a huge cargo for mechanized infantry equipment (tanks and such). We really don't know. DS9 intentionally scaled up ships to look bigger because they were supposed to be bigger. I remember watching a behind the scenes of the mirror episode with the Neg'var. They build an entirely new model of the ship for those episodes because the mirror version was supposed to be several times larger.
Well at least it is not like in GodZilla 2014. Where the data brochure says 102m long and in the movie he is rendered 170m, then 230 m and even 370 m in one scene. :/
I don't think the Dominion battleship should be seen as a response to Galaxy and D'deridex class vessels. After all: considering how long the Dominion existed, the general design its Dominion battleship might well predate the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole. As tensions between the Dominion and the Alpha quadrant increased, the Dominion's use of their ressources would change. It makes sense to only bring out the really big guns when there's an all out war in progress. Running a huge ass ship eats up a lot of ressources after all. Also: In a war where ships fight in the thousands, psychology and morale are a factor. Sending a Dominion into a one on one fight against a Galaxy or D'deridex is overkill. A much smaller ship might do the job, too and be a lot more cost effective at it. But seeing ships that are supposed to be the pride of the fleet getting shredded as though they were paper by a ship twice their size? That would have an enourmous effect on morale on both sides. And we know the Dominion is aware of how powerful morale is - after all that's why they took out USS Odyssee with a suicide run by a much smaller attack ship. To show their resolve and demonstrate how defenseless the Federation is against it.
interesting. the key issue seems to be that we don't know the situation of the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant, do they face any serious opposition? if so then their ships are likely quite new and up to date. therefore it could well be a pre-war design, though the question remains, did they bring it with them, or build it when they arrived. given that it was previously unknown and DS9 kept and eye on the wormhole, they must have built it after arriving. If they enjoy an unchallenged dominance in the Gamma Quadrant then its likely their tech stagnated. if so then its a result of their conflict with the federation, a peacekeeping force doesn't need such huge vessels and as you say its expensive.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There's also the possibility the Dominion treat their battleships the way the US Navy treated the USS Iowa for decades. Several times that ship got mothballed when there was no immediate need to operate it and reactivated in times of crisis. The Iowa also got several upgrades during its service-time. It would make sense for the dominion to deal with their battleships in a similar fashion. The time needed to reactivate a mothballed ship and to give it an upgrade would would explain why Dominion battleships didn't appear earlier in the conflict with the Alpha quadrant. But I admit: That's just my personal head canon and I doubt the writers of DS9 put that much thought into this. They wanted to introduce an uber-scary dominion ship and that's what they came up with.
I can believe the scale should be smaller but your reasoning in garbage. For a planetary invasion that has a population in billions you would need a invasion force in the millions. The Dominion holds vast amounts of territory in the Gamma quadrant and could use the ship as a mobile outpost with repair facilities, construction, ext.. Protection of The Founders would be paramount as their viewed as gods, the ship itself giving a sense of awe. The D’Deridex is approximately the equal of a Galaxy class although twice the size so no a Jem’ Hadar cruiser would be at least a match. Just because they’re not beam’s doesn’t mean they’re torpedos. Disruptor fire looks like torpedoes. They’re polaron weaponry.
@@ChrisSmith-qx6wt quite possibly but as i say given that its only encountered after the wormhole closed they didn't bring it with them and so it seems that something they encountered in the alpha Quadrant warranted its construction even if it is a pre-existing design.
It's got to be 2 different ships. In Dominion war ground battles where 500,000 Cardassins were lost in 1 battle. Going by your numbers of Battleship 14,000 troops The Dominion would need 36 of these ships for just one planet.
The Galaxy can carrier and extra 10000 people in a emergence condishion.as for the romuland war bird won't last a minute verious the Dominion cruiser.hell 3 of them won't last a minute versues the Dominion cruiser.as for the battle ship well I agree that 4000 plues meter is to large for the most part unless what were seeing is a spical built battle ship that use the design of a standard battle ship witch I think you have correct.ehy would you make that ? I can think of several good reason.first and four most it's a morale crusher .two planitary assult I disagree strongly that 16000 men may be large enough to take small colony's it no wear large enough to take a primary world like let's say batazied .third and mostly why you might need something that big.i want you to think about the amount of punishment you've seen over the years that a federation starship can take and also give back .oh no sir you might very well need something just like that.also have you ever woundered why the thay call the jemadar fighter a fighter .that would imply that it just might be that a fighter witch would requirer a carrier and at 4000 meters that thing quailifys as that in fact it's the only thing large enough to do that job. as for your comment on candidness words of a visual. I'm sorry my friend that ship was that long.it took forever for the volume to make it cut across.whether it was done for a dramatic effect or not fact of the matter is it happened you saw it that's candid.but I did injoy your arguments and I hope to see more of your work .this video was one of best on candid Star trek that I've seen.
Dialogue over visual is like saying that you believe what you hear more than what you see lol I could lie to you right now we have an expression don't believe anything you hear and half of what you see so sight over sound for me
Your forgetting the massive dominion ships at cardassia are Not dominion battleships they are battle monitors that were not even built fully they were deployed as static defenses. Common mate I read that long ago and would not consider my knowledge good enough to make a vid.
I have a concept for the "ISS Conquer" that is four times and a bit (17 sq meters) larger then a Galaxy Class starship. You're saying this battleship is twice a Galaxy Class sized ship and has four times the crew (inc. troupes) of 18K so that would mean my ship can carry 36K (round up to 40K) crew members and troupes. ;-)
Download Blender 2.9 and go on RUclips for tutorials on how to use it. That's what I did and it was quite the learning curve but I eventually got some decent models. I also tried Skillshare for Blender tutorials, this was in 2018-19, and I can't recommend it because the lessons were not only for outdated versions of Blender, but also mostly repeats of what I could find for free on RUclips. If you get your ship built, go over to my channel and post a link in a comment or DM me so I can see it. Good luck! LLAP.
I would think the 1200m ship would be either a newer version (same firepower in a smaller package) or an ambassadorial transport since I noticed Wayoun seemed rather fond of the one he flew around . As far as the 4500m ship ..... just as its name implies ... planetary assault or evacuations . They wouldn't build more than four or five due to resources but the barrage it should be able to lay down to cover the landings ... Yeah these are all new numbers in the ST universe but I do not think them unreasonable after looking at some of the numbers in other universes .
You're forgetting that volume is a cubic function. A 2 meter cube has a volume of 8 cubic meters a 4 meter cube has a volume of 64 cubic meters. I served aboard aircraft carriers that were about 330 meters long and with hull that was relatively narrow and we had over 5000 people aboard. Most people can't properly visualize just how big a mile long (1600 meter ship) would be. A ship in that range could hold 100,000 people easily and in comfort. Modern sports stadiums hold that many people in close quarters and they would be dwarfed by a mile long ship.
good point. and particularly when you think about the dominion who have no care for crew comforts. the real question is, with 24th century tech how big a crew do you really need?
Venom Geek Media 98 After the great Roomba Rebellion of 2371, quite a few.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Just one crew member is needed and hope that the enemy doesn't try to capture the vessel. And that's even with our technology. Also, why does the original Enterprise's (NCC-1701) computer sound like a relay computer when NX-01's computer looks far more advanced?
Generally Star Wars 1600 ISD, B5 and others took into account the cube sizing for crew compliments though writers did exaggerate. ISD at 1600 had something like 50,000 and then modular bases, walkers etc on board. Several times the Galaxy class was referenced to having a huge shuttle bay capacity which would likely take up a sizable amount of overall volume, not forgetting all the facilities onboard and areas we never see.
The biggest issue is one, missing the size chart at 6 mins that has both ships listed and two, thinking the ship was built in a rush to deal with the Alpha Quadrant when construction time of a ship like that would take a vast amount of time possibly over the 2 year length of the dominion war. More likely it was built in response to something in the Gamma Quadrant where the Dominion is from.
@@effervescence5664 I would think the various Dominion Battleships were pre-existing designs from the Gamma quadrant.
With all the R&D already done its was just a matter of building them, which probably began as soon as the Dominion secured Cardasian space since the ultimate goal was to conquer the entire Alpha quadrant.
Their construction was probably sped up once the Romulans entered the war
Not to mention that 4km variant idea would need a crew of probably more than ten thousand to keep it running. And that’s not a Jen hadar job that’s a vorta or client species job. That would be an unacceptably massive investment of skills to maintain such an enormous ship for about no gain over making several of the 1.5km ones.
And yeah the Enterprise D probably had a crew of 1000, but let’s assume half of those had a spouse, and a quarter had a child.
Which pushes that closer to 1800, plus support staff who probably aren’t Starfleet crew like Guinean, the barber, and the school teachers plus any attached science teams.
The actual capacity is probably more like 1,900. And they’re not even filling out the decks, most of those extra people are families of crew, so they’re living together in the same, albeit larger, quarters.
And there was an episode about evacuating like 15k people. There wasn’t a concern about carrying that many, just how long it would take to load them up.
And given its size I do believe a galaxy could carry 15 thousand, at this point 17 thousand, if not comfortably, then at least without stress.
A galaxy decked out with barracks as a dedicated transport could transport a ludicrous amount of troops if it wanted to. Like probaly in the 20k+ range for idk how long.
If you take another look at that size comparison chart, there are 4 Dominion ships there.
Battle Cruiser 762m
Battleship 1282m (twice the Galaxy Class's 642m plus 2 meters)
Dreadnought 1500m
Planetary Assault Ship 4500m (probably the one seen over Cardassia)
so the scale of the cruiser is pretty vague. ex astris-scientia puts it at 600m its impossible to know because it has no windows so no points of reference. i personally prefer it at 600m because that means it actually is a battlecruiser being of a similar size to battleships but lighter in construction. i don't know why there's a 1282m and a 1500m one that doesn't to mean sufficient difference, its either 1 or the other. either makes sense though since the 1282m would still have more overall mass than the D'deridex.
This.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Although scaled to Defiant, birds of prey and Cardassian ships, the cruiser could even be near 900 metres, perhaps.
Obviously, the Battleship, must be larger still.
Dialogue should always overpower visual effects.
They made it look bigger for it to look cool and show the size differential
The d'Deridex class would handle anything the Dominion had- they are huge, powerful warships that will eat up anything that can't flee.
There's a debris field in the Omarion Nebula that would like to chime in.
true that really is a David and Goliath situation right there.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 And much like the famous version, the Davids kicked the living crap out of the Goliaths
Erm, a D’deridex is no where near as powerful as you make it out to be, a Galaxy class outguns them, handily.
For point of reference a D’Deridex has according to sources 6 disrupters, dispute the fact that most shots would suggest it only having one with the occasion VFX error as it fires from running lights, by contrast a Galaxy comes with seven phasers.
The D’deridex has 2 torpedo launchers, however the Galaxy’s burst fire in its two essentially gives it ten standard torpedo tubes.
Put it simply there’s a reason Tomalok brought two when he went up against the Enterprise
Remember the time when Data said "Crakey Capain that ship is 1500 meters"
The reason the ED has such a small crew is because they couldn't afford the extras to fill the scenes out
LOL
16K Jem Hadar on a battleship no prob as they're not as picky cramming it as they are on Starfleet vessels. Battleship would have many, MANY transporters to dump everybody planetside within minutes alongside shuttle/transports. The thing is that's a LOT of power going to those transporters. Ship would have to be in a certain state of vulnerability to accomplish mass troop transport. I don't care how good Dominion scientists and engineers are you can't outright break one of Scotty's prime rules of engineering:"You canna break the laws of physics.(But. You can go AROUND them:)"
The Jem'Hadar Battleship is just an artificially enlarged Dominion Dreadnought in much the same way that the K'Vort is just a blown-up B'rel. It's called "Paramount are cheap-asses" continuity syndrome. Look at them, they're identical in every way except scale.
I assume nobody is probably reading this, but i would just want to throw in, that a ship like the Galaxy for example, may have a huge internal volume and that 1000 people are almost negligible compared to it, BUT the ship is not hollow.
There are generators, bulkheads, protected plasma lines, energy storages (battries), a Matter-Antimatter power plant (!), huge deuterium tanks and tons of other stuff.
I always assumed that the actual living space on such a vessel (especially a big Star Wars Ship or comparable sci fi ship) would be quite small compared to the overall volume of that ship.
6:00 the chart has both size ships. The called the big one a planetary assault ship.
Canon takes precedence over comment video.
At least with regards to outright factual claims.
Personally, I think the Battlecruiser, is bigger than the Galaxy-class, per what we see onscreen, by a fair margin - over 860 meters, maybe?
But the Battleship, is bigger still. Unlikely to be over a mile, but still.
"Asking you to suspend disbelief, after asking you to suspend disbelief"....in one sentace you described the current problems in sci fi.
yeah to engage in any fantasy you need rules be that in sport or storytelling. when you establish a rule and then break it without any consideration, you break the fantasy/game and people stop 'playing along'
Star Trek writers and observers have never appreciated how many troops you would need to pacify and occupy worlds that may contain billions of people. You would need not hundreds, nor thousands, nor tens of thousands, nor hundreds of thousands of troops. Rather, you would need on the order of a million troops. The declared capacity of most Trek ships, typically less than 10,000, is simply not up to the task of planetary invasion. You would need a hundred Galaxy class ships to carry enough troops just to take a planet the size of Earth.
That having been said, I assume that spectacularly odd size changes are FX errors, and in that aspect I agree with you.
Yeah, predictably there's errors and sometimes, 'We just don't have new models' to suit scenes, but if you want a planet to *submit* you could probably do worse than *seem* like you might have an army of millions of Jem'Hadar in orbit even if you didn't actually have that many.
When I drew up my fan ship, I put/hid two of these semi-circular towing collars on it, like the one's on the tug in the old Starfleet Technical Manual, to account for things like needing to turn it into a planetary hospital, or conversely, invasion platform. Still, after reading your post, I think you're right; it would take millions of Marines. Now I have to calculate how many Marines a tow pod could hold. lol
The only counter(s) I can think of to this logic would be that the invading force is able and willing to cross moral/ethical boundaries that we generally don't (WMDs, orbital bombardment, etc). Maybe its just a given that there's always a percentage or two of the population that becomes turncoats, and they're easily armed with cheap, mass produced weapons and personal communicators. Or, maybe its just the threat of "turning off the power" and the population would rather give up than deal with the loss of nearly all their creature comforts.
It really does seem like a whiff on the part of the writers.
In the episode What You Leave Behind the producers admitted on the DVD extras they screwed the scaling of the Dominion ships so I would say it's safe to ignore the 4000 meter claim.
At the time of the battleship unveiling, it was a revelation. The Dominion didn't seem to HAVE truly big ships, they didn't necessarily need them. Their motif and tactics were towards large fleets of small ships with cruisers. They had conquered and pacified their region of the Gamma Quadrant. Because they had tactical tech even greater than in use in the alpha quadrant, and vast legions of disposable troops, this made sense. Lots of little ships, and some cruisers, all of which were very dangerous for their mass, and perfectly willing to make suicide runs. This seemed to be an 'established' thing, so it was a surprise when the battleship appeared at all.
Jake Sisco made it pretty clear with his "twice the size and three times as powerful as a Galaxy Class starship", yes, spoken words ought to take priority over special effects. I mean, sure, there is wiggle room in Jake's statement, but clearly, the battleship is meant to be comparable in size to the Galaxy class. As said, at the time, for me at least, that revelation was surprising enough. Indeed, I thought it was twice the MASS, meaning the ship was probably only about 30% or so longer than the Galaxy, like maybe 850 meters in length, not twice the length. The 3X as powerful addition made sense as well; the Dominion battleship is a pure warship with arguably superior technology, the Galaxy Class is a multi-role vehicle. Starfleet 'doesn't have warships' after all.
Now, obviously, this isn't what we saw on the screen, but, I would suggest: 'so what?'. The special effects guys on the "Star Trek" franchise in general are infamous for screwing with the scale of various ships, and that goes double for DS9. And even more so for the Defiant which had like three different model sizes for whatever effect the special effects guys wanted, and tended to look like almost like some super-duper fighter next to giant ships. The battle of the Defiant against an Excelsior class ship shows that, where the Defiant is dwarfed by the saucer section, which is certainly NOT the case in the Star Trek Encyclopedia.
I love Trekyards, but one simply cannot take the Defiant seriously as some ruler to measure something else as they did in their episode of the Dominion Battleship scale. If someone did, it would make sense to assume that the Defiant is only half the length it should be, at least if it was in battle with the ship in question.
Also, as someone pointed out on that Trekyards episode comments: a ship 4500 meters long completely eliminates the value of the Deep Space 9 station. The Dominion could just park and retrofit, if necessary, a battleship wherever they liked, and use IT as a station.
Yeah, sorry but I will take what is shown multiple times on screen over Jake Sisko's military analysis of the ship. Bigger doesn't always mean better either, the ship could just have a massive cargo hold for mechanized military equipment and a large barracks for tens of thousands of ground troops. We really don't know.
Also remeber gem hadar don’t need food or facilities like people so they could fit that many more in there ships compared to federation ships
I could accept that perhaps there was a few behemoth sized ships operating within the Dominion for safeguarding the movements of the Founders themselves whenever they're relocating to a new home planet perhaps(although that in itself would be a pretty obvious target) but for the general structure and philosophy of the Dominion along with their attitude towards "solids" and downright disregard for even their own servants/slaves/subjects, it just doesn't make sense that the Dominion would bother investing the time and resources somewhat needlessly in turning out massive ships like that in large numbers and would more likely be a very rare ship for something more interesting other than just adding some extra punch to a battle.
By mindset alone, the Founders simply clone their enslaved loyal God worshipping subjects. They see them as disposable, beneath them, have a distrust and almost hatred for all things "solid". We see this in the way they sacrifice waves of Jem'hadar without any regard to their survival other than how it may impact on their own welware should they all die and lose before defeating the perceived enemies. To that end we see Dominion warship design produced with a similar philosophy, which is to produce strong capable fighting units cheaply and quickly just like the Jem'hadar themselves, but with that same "disposable" philosophy whereby waves of these smaller cheaper ships can be thrown at the enemy and sacrificed if needs be with reckless abandonment and disregard to their crew.
So yes, Imho there was undoubtedly some large warships in the Dominion but I'd guess very rare, not for front line service unless backs to the wall with few options left, and more for serving very specific and far more important roles that hanging about with the common sacrificial plebs. To that end, a Jem'hadar Cruiser would be the far more likely and numerous workhorse for fleshing out large Dominion battle fleets with a bit more punch but with that same sacrificial attitude. Some colossal sized ship... it would just be far too precious and off-script for the Dominion to produce and then sacrifice something of that nature for some typical territorial expansion clashes Imho other than for overseeing and coordinating the battle itself for a few Founders themselves without directly getting involved yet offering adequate protection for such "Godly" occupancy.
Sizing based on DS9 footage is and always has been a wash. The CGI and SFX departments never cared too much for consistency there. I mean, just look at the Defiant. That ship added and removed decks at will, changed size from 70 to over 170 meters in length, changed weapon placements...... If we are trying to reach a consensus here, then i'd say ask the designer of that ship. And if he/she isn't available or made up their mind yet (or ever), then pick whatever fits your scaling factors the most. For me, she always fell into the mile class category.
you do realize, there are 3, different ships with the similar hull design right?
The Dominion battleship looks exactly like what it should which is A STAR TREK STAR DESTROYER.
I figure a lot of the Enterprise D volume is taken my machinery, equipment, storage areas, huge structural components, power distribution, power capacitance, and who all knows. Plus plenty of space for diplomats, refugees, terraforming equipment, and any thing else the Federation could need a massive ship for.
So, which came first, the Dominion Battleship, or the Romulan Scimitar?
I MUST totally agree that just a Ship like The Enterprise-D have ridicolously much place in it. One Time Commander Riker sayd in the earlier Series that placing +15 000 people to the 1K Crew in the Ent-D would be no problem, so in the Ship like the Jem H-BS could easily fit up to 40 000 if it would have just not more then 1500m and what if it would have 4500M? Then 120 000, maybe? OMG. But we should not forgot, that the Dominion thought differently from the Alfa+Beta quadrant Humanoids. For them 120K+ in 1 J.H.-BS would be perfect in case of a invasion Force. 1 Jem.H-BS with 4500m would fit against 3 Rom.D´deridex BS, so it would make sense.
Yeah, I wonder if they didn't confuse the Imperial system conversion with the metric. It's in the same range as a D'deridex. Just a touch larger.
90s cgi often made mistakes with size, dimensions, etc . Babylon 5 had similar goofs.
The Dominion has been around 10,000 years. Instead of looking at the actual show and visuals from canon and noting there might just be different classes of Dominion Ships of similar design, it is logical to conclude the 10,000 year old Dominion made their Main Battleship around countering the Romulan Star Empire's main Battleship specifically, and that is why all Dominion Ships are the same size.
i agree i think it was mostly a desire to counter the D'deridex which if properly supported was an extremely oppressive presence
Anomalous effects work. Like the three different sizes for the Klingon Bird of Prey. (Scout (Berel), Cruiser (Kvort) and Frigate sized)
One thing people always need to remember. The people and directors in charge of the visuals care a great more deal about how the scene LOOKS over actual scale. They have actually said this. So, for anyone saying, "this scene shows the ship being x size, next scene y size" please be aware the picture you are seeing has director and art enthusiast interference and objects might not be the size they appear to be. Use published official guides for more accurate scaling (even those can cause confusion as no one really put a size to a ship, and the reuse of models as for a long time models were expensive).
Shadx27 exactly. In Halo 2 Anniversary the CAS-class Assault Carriers dwarfs everything around them even more so than they should. (5.6km compared to 490m, 1200m and 1800m ships) It made a beautiful shot of the Covenant’s power though.
And oddly, the same Assault Carrier is under half the size of Mombassa island, instead of similar length, to it ( ~:
Dominion Battleship: ludicrously large
Executor, Eclipse. : hold my beer, runt
So the Dominion never built the behemoth Battleships until they got to the Alpha quadrant and then was trapped there with no reinforcements? None could have came through the wormhole, whether on screen or not, before the replicating minefield?
The easy answer. The Battle Ship vs Valiant was one size. Then the battle of Cardassia those super big ones were an even bigger version. Plan and simple
every site says the dominion battleship is 1,500 meters in length
I thought the Battleship and the Planetary Assault Ship are two different vessels??
Nice to see your ker'chan got a place in that starship chart size comparison.
Really has it been updated?
Interesting video. The chart you show has four Dominion ships: the battlecruiser, the battleship, a "dreadnought" at 1500m and a "planetary assault ship" at 4500m. The chart is claiming there are different, huge ships, not that the battleship is 4500m.
In the TNG episode "Yesterdays Enterprise" the Enterprise D is to be able to carry some 15000 troops.
isnt that huge ship in orbit of Cardassia a different ship altogether? a Defender class if i remember correctly compared to the generic battleship name?
16,000 people isn't really enough to invade a planet. I mean Earth alone in 2022 has about 28 million soldiers world wide (give or take a few hundred thousand)
The Dominion secured the entire Gamma Qaudrant, they would have met races with vastly larger armies than what we typically see in Star Trek. A 4,500 meter upscaled vessel solely designed as a mobile fortress complex for the purpose of strategically deploying large armies and vast quantities of supplies could be a viable move for them and they would have the resources to do it.
That's just a thought though, I know it is a size error. :P
I think the (relatively) smaller size looks better and meshes better with other ships of the time
The Enterprise-D had 1014 people on board in Remember Me. Not crew, people, including the civilians and everything. The tech manual said it could accommodate 6500 comfortably, and 15000 in an emergency. Based just on deck space, the Galaxy class could easily accommodate well over a hundred thousand people. I assume the environmental systems would suffer, but still.
In terms of how many the battleship can accommodate,jem'hadar dont sleep or eat, and they prefer to stand. Half a million troops isn't out of the question.
Also remember that size is not length. Something that is twice as long has eight times the volume. Obviously, the battleship doesn't have a common design with the Galaxy. I'd assume that Jake, not being a tech person, would use length. Even at "only" double the length, that still makes it insanely vast. It's a poor means of projecting power. It's a bit like the death star has the volume of millions of star destroyers. It's a much better projection of power to have as many battle cruisers as you could get with the materiel (I'd guess four at a bare minimum), which you can deploy and manoeuvre independently than to have one huge, ungainly target.
the galaxy class be a fearsome warship given the right tweaks.
strip out all the useless junk and out fit with a secondary warp core and additional power generators along with a whole fighter wing.
give it a crew of 2000.
defensive
ablative armor
secondary and primary shielding
offensive
16 phaser arrays
pulse phasers for point defense or broadsides.
micro quantum torpedo launchers
only quantum torpedoes
4 launchers (2 fore, 2 aft)
allow for burst fire quantu torpedoes
When I decided to go into Blender and recreate the then battleship/now carrier I'd drawn up when I was 12 (it's okay to laugh) it came to 1363 meters and that was large enough to give me pause; even with the last 60 meters or so being just the engines trailing aft of the actual hull. 4500m seems nuts; that's a space station, not a ship. Great video; feels like a discussion even though it's a monologue.
Sound like a ship that size would be call a dreadnought
docked on Deep Space nine its nearly as big as the station. the variant in the orbit from Cardassia is why bigger.
So did not one stop to think that the 4k one was just the founders own ship and as such was much bigger than the normal version or even a command and control ship and such bigger than standard.
Seems that the Babylon 5 effects teams were not the only ones making mistakes. Lol
same with ships in star wars clone wars.
Please give me an example
@@lordradam5409 I’m a few years late. As an example, in the Babylon 5 episode “Severed Dreams” there was a major battle featuring several Earth Alliance destroyers. The on screen visuals show the destroyer Roanoke being destroyed by a ramming attack. Later, the destroyer Agrippa was blown up in a bombardment. However, the dialogue when the Agrippa was destroyed reveals this was actually the Roanoke. It’s still debated on whether the names from the visuals or dialogue in these scenes is cannon.
Just because a ship is of a certain size, does not mean it is livable. Besides the saucer section, how much was able to be walked through easily or safely? The nacelles for instance I am sure were off limits to the public or even non-engineering.
I'm with you on that. I see know reason for the Dominion to build ships 10 times bigger than a Galaxy class by the looks on the chart. To build a ship that big would be a waste for the time it would take when you could build a lot more smaller ships in less time and get them out their where they are needed. One of the many mistakes the Germans made in WW-2. The Tigers took to long to build.
if we jump to Star Wars for a second, the Acclamator Assault Ship we see in Attack of the Clones is about 860 meters (i forget the exact specifications), and is stated tocarry a max of 16000 troops...yeah i think its a good guess that if a Dominion Battleship is partially designed for troop transport, 16000 is a good low guess, tho i'd say it could carry more
Is it really 16000? Blimey! Even in the clone wars you don't get such a sense of scale.
I think we have to admit that Star Wars is the best example of size doesn't matter; X-Wing v Death Star? Or is Enterprise V V'Ger a bigger variance?
voltar said god is not on the side of the biggest battlions but on the better shots as for the enterprise galaxy class has 1000 crew but can carry up to 3 to 4000 combat troops or settlers if needed so when the dominion built a battle ship maybe it had troops for planetary conquest as well
What if the Vorta simply added water?! 🤔 BOOM Ships bigger there. Solved the issue!
9:34 Well... at first you could argue that they have pretty big "machinery" on board, for all the basic ship functions and also for the multi role purpose, the galaxy class is build for.
then you have dedicated working decks with laboratory and other working stuff wich is there if needed. i guess the crew and the people basically hang around in a pretty limited part of the ship, manly the living quarters, the engineering, the bridge and whats else is necessary for the everyday business. like a mall complex with an residential building, Stadion and an convention center, alone
in space. huge complex but most of the space is most of the time empty.
Twice the size shouldn’t mean twice the length.
how do you know they didnt encounter something bigger than alpha and beta quadrant stuff back in there quadrant? or even the borg?
My HUSNOCK will rule the Galaxy once more .
BTW and as I'm sure you know, the on-screen scaling within Star Trek, especially TNG and DS9 were ridiculously inconsistent where almost every ship and space station visually doubled and tripled and shrank from one scene to the next lol! For the love of God don't use episode screenshots as size comparisons! 🤣🤣
It's like the Empire's Super Star Destroyers. From a design stand point it probably is impractical, but the Dominion doesn't care as long as it terrifies their enemies.
UHH, YEAH, THIS has been a problem for me for YEARS.
What's more, I've always been miffed by the size differences between TOS ships and later series' ones. Bigger and bigger and bigger and now a ship is like 20 times the size of THE GODDAMN PLANET KILLER.
We have lost the plot, people!
Some large ships is fine, like the Galaxy class. The issue is when ever ship is huge.
My pet peeve, no peeve is the wrong word. The ship that drives me insane is the Mega-class Star Dreadnought form Star Wars. I hate that ship on so many levels.
Then, why a superstar star destroyer?? Definitely far larger than anything the rebels could through at them. To project power and fear, thats why.
It is stated in TNG that the galaxy class can transport 5000 people, this on top of it's crew, and those 5000 are exemplified by troops or colonists, 2 groups that also require a lot of equipment to be brought along, sure this will tax the ships recreational systems, holodecks, 10-forward, arboretum, gyms... But such mission are not designed to be super long term. So a crew of a little over 1000 plus some family members, let's say around 1500 total, could live comfortably for those long term deep space missions intended for the Galaxy class.
Also. The titles "Planetary Assault Ship" would potentially be transporting several troop brigades, it would also have to carry, ground vehicles, turrets, and other supplies.
Question in wondering is whether the ship has atmospheric flight capability to off load its troops and cargo or was it beaming or it used shuttles?
thats an interesting point. the jem'hadar fighter does have that capability. weather they build larger ships with provision for planetary landings?... the spaceframe of the battlecruiser definitely can't but the battleship is more robust although you'd need some serious landing gear. i think really more important is having large landing craft. an example from star wars would be the separatist c99 lander. but definitely something larger than the shuttles we see.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I would like to think there were ultimately two different ships. The 1500m ship was a combination "Battleship" and a fleet support vessel. It would be loaded with weapons, armor, and shields. Also it would have to rely on massive power reactors and fuel.
The larger 4500m vessel would of been rare and only used to either eradicate single handedly an enemy planet by planetary bombardment and/or planet takeover by launching ground forces.
Oh good grief! it could be possible for the Dominion to have a 4.5 km sized ship but it would be few and rare to non existant. Once the Founders had some concrete info on ship numbers for the Klingon, Romulan, and Federation it would've been more obvious to figure out what they wanted/needed to fight their foes. They/The Founders SUCESSFULLY infiltrated all three of the major superpowers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and not in lowly positions but Admiralty and Commanders of fleets and Taskforces. Where the Alpha and Beta were split up between these three groups and the smattering of other governments and groups not a part of the big three, the Dominion had nearly ALL of a quadrant (Gamma) to itself and all the resources could then be poured into a war effort. Still say it was a FUBAR moment of the visual effects department because of how many inconsistencies of visual size and character lines. 2x the size of a Galaxy class is a LARGE SHIP. Anything larger than 1.5 Km is insane especially when the Dominion showed a preference to using swarm tactics with ships. Remember it only took 3 fighters ships of the dominion to take down a Galaxy class and those ships were comparable to the Defiant, at least in size. Why build this monster sized 4.5Km ship when you could have 3x or more of 1.5Km ship that is still larger than anything you will be up against and you keep more options open to you by having multiple ships to perform multiple tasks, instead of this one behemoth of a ship committed to one tasking at a time. Just makes more sound tactics to have more options available to you than not by having multiple ships vs fewer larger ships
So how many troops do you need to occupy and secure a planet?
One million
@@hanshawks5088 I guess it depends on population numbers and size, but that sounds _insanely_ optimistic. I would have gone with 100 to 200 Million at minimum for a planet like Earth.
X2 the size and ×3 the firepower seems plausible for a command ship in the Dominion.
The Galaxy class was never designed as a dedicated battleship, but a heavily armed explorer akin to the constitution class
indeed. we only really the true potential of 600m+ sized vessels in the Neghvar and Sovereign.
DS9 is my favorite TV show. I have watched it many times, but don't remember the fly-through. I must be blocking it out of my head canon.
episode called Valiant.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Yeah, I remember the episode. Nog gets a big head from flattery, and stupidly follows the Red Squad CADET's orders. When Nog being an actual officer should have taken command, ordering a return to Starfleet. I simply don't recall the fly-through of the battleship.
What if they built a big huge battleship when they still had access to the wormhole and then with the strain on resources caused by being cut off from the rest of the dominion had to scale it down later in the later part of the war? Just a though, great video my friend keep up the good work.
we'd have seen or heard about it beforehand. although im sure if the dominion did have access to the gamma quadrant, there may well be an argument for them to have ships that big. but again to what end? whats the point of having such a large vessel when 1500m is plenty. equally we don't know who the dominion were fighting on other flanks. perhaps the borg?
A valid point, truth is we may never know. But it is a very good topic for discussion.
The Jem'Hadar carrier from Star Trek: Dominion War is the largest I've ever seen. It can hold thousands of ground troops for planetary invasion and boarding parties
Compared to the Galaxy class, it's 1,600m long, the size of an Imperial Star Destroyer. The very big, Breen-dwarfing ship was probably a planetary assault carrier. Ouch.
Could a post dominion war starfleet beat a dominion. Where starfleet uses androids to build ships quickly. And possibly use androids and holograms to man the ships. Those adroids at Utopia Planeta built a shit ton of ships to evacuate the rhomulans.
I thing the JH battleship was more way realistic in size or scale compared to the frickin Super Star Destroyers in SW.
Yes it is. And you could justify by looking at the JH's use of so many smaller ships. They truly needed a way to support and repair all those small ships without having t send them home through the wormhole, and that justifies a lot of the BS's bulk as a fleet tender.
As little *use* as it may be, I've often sorta handwaved some of the scale discrepancies in Trek as potentially less about that being the best way to build something than as ...deliberate deception than perhaps style/propaganda choices. It might not fool any sophisticated sensors, but civilian populations will probably tend to think more in pictures than energy signatures. If there's a feared utterly overwhelming juggernaut that looks about like a more modest but still big ship, maybe it makes populations see the images and feel there's no point resisting, even if you're only sending a battlecruiser or two.
(It's not the greatest theory, anyway, but morale and propaganda might count for something, especially when it comes to wandering Klingon bird-of-prey sizes. )
The star destroyer of star trek
Wow, first---last time I was this early, the Big Bang ate my homework.....
Okay, now for a couple of quibbles about the Galaxy class. Not sure your ideas about the crew numbers are right. I'm quite certain that the 1000-ish number is for full crew and complement, including mission specialists, scientists, families, and Mr. Mot. The higher number of 4-5000 describes the ships maximum evacuation capacity--this info is from the TNG Technical Manual, which also served as the writers' guide, btw(unlike the DS9 Tech Manual, with it's ugly ships and size discrepancies lol).
That said, I totally agree with you tho when you say the Dominion ship doesn't need to be 4000m long to be a troop transport. Obviously just a little special-effects goof.
i agree that those are the official numbers. but if that were so the ship would be incredibly empty. 1000 is a rough estimate because personnel come and go quite frequently. and i think most crewmen, even enlisted probably had families on board as well e.g: chief O'Brien. so even if we say half the crew had families: spouse and child thats 1000 civilians. so maybe in the region of 2000ish.
There are a number of sections of a Galaxy class ship that are empty space as they were intended for future upgrades. Add on top of that the fact that heavy automation would take up lots of space as well. The designers may have also had an eye towards it being a heavy troop transport which would make a lot of sense.
Crew complement:
1,000-6,000 (normal complement depending on assignment)
15,000 (maximum capacity)
RUclips wouldn't let me comment with the link but, it's from Memory Alpha fandom wiki.
The "very empty" part makes me laugh, because basically it says that the Galaxy -- and more so any of the "every new generation of ship gets 4x the volume" dipshit escalation is basically the sci-fi equivalent of the North Korean Ryugyong Hotel.
so true, the galaxy class only having 1014 people onboard means, that the ship is a ghost ship. Most of it would be empty!! Especially since most people are crowded around specific areas.
All the lights you see through the windows means that people do not turn off their lights at all when they leave for work.
With Enterprise-D having some nearly 9 million m² of habitable deck-space and presuming you have 4,000 people on board, each with 50m² of living space, you still would end up with *less* than 10% of the available space being used for habitation. Ships of that size and beyond are incomprehensibly large.
There are gem hadar fighters dominion battleships the cruiser is the battleship same thing but the battle monitors are massive. I'm not sure if any dominion ships are called gem hadar apart from the fighter
6:07
Wow !
The list sctually had legend of the galactic heroes on it !
You know the list makrt loves sci fi and especiallu space opera !
Warhammer 40k fans like myself find this funny
i was myself... a long time ago... before i got fed up with GW's bs.
I very much enjoy your Star Trek work. Have you ever considered 40k ship lore?
perhaps, i did play the tabletop Battlefleet Gothic back in the day. but they are very much over the top compared to trek.
1:50 That is also the STO scale for the ship.
You are correct.
The Galaxy's full complement, crew, civilians, etc., is repeatedly stated to be about 1000 in the series, and it is absolutely empty. I have long suspected the Galaxy was really designed as a colony ship, meant to transport prefab colonies, including several thousand colonist, to new worlds. It certainly has the space. Converted to a troopship, including heavy equipment, I would expect it could carry tens of thousands. The Dominion Battleship isn't twice the size of a Galaxy, it's twice the length, eight times the volume. Used for troop transport, it can probably deploy a quarter million troops. It suffers the same weakness as the Star Wars super ships. Huge resources concentrated in one place. We don't have good stats on it, but it would be a prime target for attack. Ambush it with cloaked ships while its shields are down with a few dozen torpedoes and all those troops and crew and resources put into building it are gone.
i agree with the galaxy class. as i recall Andrew probert does say that he envisaged a crew of 4000-5000 but that would be too hard to represent with extra's which is Bizzare because the TOS enterprise is chock full of extras.
regarding the scale of the dominion battleship i agree especially because you can really pack in jem'hadar. and it is a lot of resources in one place. but... i don't think that many were ever built. less than a handful, and really i don't think they fit with dominion doctrine of using attack ships and battlecruisers. i don't think such a behemoth is their style they like their stuff to be expendable and a battleship isn't.
No offense I'll take 'visual' canon over a mistake in one piece of dialogue.
true but when the dialogue is consistent. and when that visual cannon is 1 shot. the rest fits with the dialogue, i think we must rule it as anomalous.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I agree with the above comment. I'll take what I see on screen over a military analysis done by Jake Sisko. Bigger doesn't always mean better either, it could have had a massive barracks for thousands or even tens of thousands of troops as well as a huge cargo for mechanized infantry equipment (tanks and such). We really don't know.
DS9 intentionally scaled up ships to look bigger because they were supposed to be bigger. I remember watching a behind the scenes of the mirror episode with the Neg'var. They build an entirely new model of the ship for those episodes because the mirror version was supposed to be several times larger.
Well at least it is not like in GodZilla 2014. Where the data brochure says 102m long and in the movie he is rendered 170m, then 230 m and even 370 m in one scene. :/
I don't think the Dominion battleship should be seen as a response to Galaxy and D'deridex class vessels. After all: considering how long the Dominion existed, the general design its Dominion battleship might well predate the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole. As tensions between the Dominion and the Alpha quadrant increased, the Dominion's use of their ressources would change. It makes sense to only bring out the really big guns when there's an all out war in progress. Running a huge ass ship eats up a lot of ressources after all.
Also: In a war where ships fight in the thousands, psychology and morale are a factor. Sending a Dominion into a one on one fight against a Galaxy or D'deridex is overkill. A much smaller ship might do the job, too and be a lot more cost effective at it. But seeing ships that are supposed to be the pride of the fleet getting shredded as though they were paper by a ship twice their size? That would have an enourmous effect on morale on both sides. And we know the Dominion is aware of how powerful morale is - after all that's why they took out USS Odyssee with a suicide run by a much smaller attack ship. To show their resolve and demonstrate how defenseless the Federation is against it.
interesting. the key issue seems to be that we don't know the situation of the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant, do they face any serious opposition? if so then their ships are likely quite new and up to date. therefore it could well be a pre-war design, though the question remains, did they bring it with them, or build it when they arrived. given that it was previously unknown and DS9 kept and eye on the wormhole, they must have built it after arriving.
If they enjoy an unchallenged dominance in the Gamma Quadrant then its likely their tech stagnated. if so then its a result of their conflict with the federation, a peacekeeping force doesn't need such huge vessels and as you say its expensive.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There's also the possibility the Dominion treat their battleships the way the US Navy treated the USS Iowa for decades. Several times that ship got mothballed when there was no immediate need to operate it and reactivated in times of crisis. The Iowa also got several upgrades during its service-time.
It would make sense for the dominion to deal with their battleships in a similar fashion. The time needed to reactivate a mothballed ship and to give it an upgrade would would explain why Dominion battleships didn't appear earlier in the conflict with the Alpha quadrant.
But I admit: That's just my personal head canon and I doubt the writers of DS9 put that much thought into this. They wanted to introduce an uber-scary dominion ship and that's what they came up with.
I can believe the scale should be smaller but your reasoning in garbage. For a planetary invasion that has a population in billions you would need a invasion force in the millions. The Dominion holds vast amounts of territory in the Gamma quadrant and could use the ship as a mobile outpost with repair facilities, construction, ext.. Protection of The Founders would be paramount as their viewed as gods, the ship itself giving a sense of awe. The D’Deridex is approximately the equal of a Galaxy class although twice the size so no a Jem’ Hadar cruiser would be at least a match. Just because they’re not beam’s doesn’t mean they’re torpedos. Disruptor fire looks like torpedoes. They’re polaron weaponry.
I believe they made that Battleship because they came across something in the gamma quadrant that required it just saying
Heck maybe a borg Cube wandered across them in their travels
@@ChrisSmith-qx6wt quite possibly but as i say given that its only encountered after the wormhole closed they didn't bring it with them and so it seems that something they encountered in the alpha Quadrant warranted its construction even if it is a pre-existing design.
Are you saying k’vort class cruisers don’t exist? That their really all just small birds of prey, like in star trek 4?
the mid size 350m version does, but i don't believe in the larger 600m+ version.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ok. That's fair.
The Defiant a couple of Warbirds took one out with just a few shots.
Mate, watch the "ummmm"s. You punctuate almost every sentence with that.
2-3x the size of the Galaxy class seems plausible as a command ship.
It's got to be 2 different ships. In Dominion war ground battles where 500,000 Cardassins were lost in 1 battle.
Going by your numbers of Battleship 14,000 troops The Dominion would need 36 of these ships for just one planet.
very true. but bear in mind its being both a battleship and transport. they would probably be augmented with dedicated transports.
The Galaxy can carrier and extra 10000 people in a emergence condishion.as for the romuland war bird won't last a minute verious the Dominion cruiser.hell 3 of them won't last a minute versues the Dominion cruiser.as for the battle ship well I agree that 4000 plues meter is to large for the most part unless what were seeing is a spical built battle ship that use the design of a standard battle ship witch I think you have correct.ehy would you make that ? I can think of several good reason.first and four most it's a morale crusher .two planitary assult I disagree strongly that 16000 men may be large enough to take small colony's it no wear large enough to take a primary world like let's say batazied .third and mostly why you might need something that big.i want you to think about the amount of punishment you've seen over the years that a federation starship can take and also give back .oh no sir you might very well need something just like that.also have you ever woundered why the thay call the jemadar fighter a fighter .that would imply that it just might be that a fighter witch would requirer a carrier and at 4000 meters that thing quailifys as that in fact it's the only thing large enough to do that job. as for your comment on candidness words of a visual. I'm sorry my friend that ship was that long.it took forever for the volume to make it cut across.whether it was done for a dramatic effect or not fact of the matter is it happened you saw it that's candid.but I did injoy your arguments and I hope to see more of your work .this video was one of best on candid Star trek that I've seen.
Dialogue over visual is like saying that you believe what you hear more than what you see lol I could lie to you right now we have an expression don't believe anything you hear and half of what you see so sight over sound for me
Someone needs to learn brevity.
You got it a bit wrong it is a troop transport it is also an attack ship carrier
why would you need to carry attack ships that are already warp capable. perhaps dropships and shuttles although i don't see an obvious shuttlebay?
My God, that's a big ship
Good lord man. Read through your script or even point form notes so that you can maintain some pacing and not say umm and err every second word.
Why'd you have to say that? I didn't notice it before. Now it's annoying:(
I cant stand Capt Foley on Trek Yards the guy talks out of his arse and gets ST facts wronge all the time arrogant to
Your forgetting the massive dominion ships at cardassia are Not dominion battleships they are battle monitors that were not even built fully they were deployed as static defenses. Common mate I read that long ago and would not consider my knowledge good enough to make a vid.
i was aware of that explanation but i disagree as it makes no sense to produce huge static defenses based of the design of a smaller mobile starship.
I have a concept for the "ISS Conquer" that is four times and a bit (17 sq meters) larger then a Galaxy Class starship.
You're saying this battleship is twice a Galaxy Class sized ship and has four times the crew (inc. troupes) of 18K so that would mean my ship can carry 36K (round up to 40K) crew members and troupes. ;-)
Download Blender 2.9 and go on RUclips for tutorials on how to use it. That's what I did and it was quite the learning curve but I eventually got some decent models. I also tried Skillshare for Blender tutorials, this was in 2018-19, and I can't recommend it because the lessons were not only for outdated versions of Blender, but also mostly repeats of what I could find for free on RUclips. If you get your ship built, go over to my channel and post a link in a comment or DM me so I can see it. Good luck! LLAP.
I would think the 1200m ship would be either a newer version (same firepower in a smaller package) or an ambassadorial transport since I noticed Wayoun seemed rather fond of the one he flew around . As far as the 4500m ship ..... just as its name implies ... planetary assault or evacuations . They wouldn't build more than four or five due to resources but the barrage it should be able to lay down to cover the landings ... Yeah these are all new numbers in the ST universe but I do not think them unreasonable after looking at some of the numbers in other universes .