Dr.Craig on Molinistic Soteriology
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- Опубликовано: 11 авг 2020
- We review William Lane Craig’s comments on apostasy from a Molinistic perspective, posted two days ago: www.reasonablefaith.org/media....
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I prefer the Bible, a powerful God free to save whomever he so chooses.
@Collin Lutz I would have to write a small book to respond to all your declarations. Watch James Whites videos and at least learn the other sides positions.
Amazing observation. Denying God’s sovereignty to save, but claim security in salvation. All it does is tickle their desire for the ‘almighty’ free will or the presence of multiple autonomous wills in existence; which of course is impossible.
Why did Dr. White turn down a debate with one of the leading Molina scholars, Dr. Kirk MacGregor? MacGregor is a total gentleman. He's scholarly, respectful, understands the topic, and from what I've heard, he's been very interested in doing a debate and White apparently said no. I mean, he literally wrote the biography on Molina. Why isn't he a worthy debate opponent?
I don’t know. Doesn’t want to debate a Molinist? Middle knowledge seems foreign to the Scriptural YHWH.
@@KristiLEvans1 he did debate WLC since then.
Molinists don’t claim molinism is explicitly taught in scripture. That’s not the point. It’s a model attempting to synthesize elements that are explicitly taught. Molina thought Arminius’ view and Calvin’s view tended to subordinate one set of verses to another; for instance, the verses that emphasized God’s sovereignty and control were attempted to be explained away by Arminius and the verses about God’s universal salvific will and human free choice were attempted to be explained away by Calvin. Molina objected to both approaches.
So Molinism is a different thing altogether from Calvinism and Arminianism. One can hold to the Calvinist soteriological system or the Arminian and still be a Molinist.
WLC's speculative theology is hilarious
I almost burst out laughing multiple times at WLC
That's exactly what it sounds like to me, a high brow trying to appease as many people as possible with his theology.
WLC is a joke
If you listen carefully you will hear a lot of "it seems to me" and "well it could be". That's not good theology.
Sounds like Craig is leaning on his own understanding.
William Craig's god is philosophically created and sprinkled with Christian lingo.
Also 100% determined by God, correct?
@@kb24crazylaker That's where molinism gets a little weird. They say, at least as far as I understand, that potential humans in possible worlds have libertarian free will, but once God instanciates a world, those actualized humans are basically fatalistically bound to the choices the potential humans chose.
At least on Reformed positions, God decrees all that happens, and part of his decree is establishing human free will and the liberty and contingency of second causes, so they escape fatalism while still allowing for bit God and man to make determinations, but molinism tries to play both sides in a way that seems really weird, at least to me.
@@kb24crazylaker What's the problem with that?
@@LinebackerTuba I know, God "put lying spirits in the mouths of false prophets" (cf. 1 Kgs. 22:23), so why can't it be accepted that God also decreed all the falsehoods of the Molinistic synergists?
I never understood that bad argument that if God decreed all things, it somehow relieves the creature of responsibility for his/her actions and intentions.
That's totally false, unless one PRESUPPOSES that "human free will" (falsely defined by synergists as, 'the power of contrary choice'; which is NOT how Scripture defines human libertarian free will) is the prerequisite which establishes "responsibility"...which it's NOT.
There is only ONE prerequisite which establishes creaturely responsibility/accountability/liability/culpability/blame and fault; and it ain't "human free will".
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 I think you are just confused. You may want to reread this comment thread. Nothing you said is relevant to the point I was making.
Such a difficult position to maintain rather than just letting the Bible speak for itself.
William Lane Craig loves the wisdom of William Lane Craig
A friend of mine, follower of Craig, told me the reason I did not like Craig and his thoughts was because Craig is so much smarter than me that I could not possibly understand him. My problem with Craig is because I do understand him.
@@marshall470 I don't think you do.
@@arnolddonaldson7129 Everybody seems to think this is the smartest man on earth. The fact he believes in Molinism proves they are wrong.
@@marshall470 Mr. White seems to think he is the smartest man in the room even though Bart seemed to be more educated, unfortunately.
William Lane Craig's brain works at a very high level. Have you seen any of his debates?
Molinism is what you get when you mix anthropomorphism and determinism
Mr White! You've helped me tremendously within theology, apologetics, church history and modelling Christian behaviour I can look up to. God bless you. What is your apple cider "recipe!?" I remember you sharing it in another episode and i cant remember, Help a brother out!
I heard him say it's apple cider vinegar mixed with club soda and a flavor
@@elijah6010 Ah! Thats right. Thanks so much brother! Thats what ive been doing lol. Its so good and healthy. Give you a good kick up
Jordan The River Man PLEASE if you can sense the deadness of the institutional churches but can't put your finger on it. I'm pleading with you to understand something very important here. The mainstream Christian system is not of God.
Rev 17:5 - "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots, And Abominations Of The Earth."
Mystery Babylon The Great is the Vatican - “And the woman which thou sawest, is that great Citie which reigneth ouer the kings of the earth.” - Rev 17:18
And she has harlot daughters which represent the protestant churches.
And “the Abominations Of The Earth” are corrupt scriptures.
And the final bible that will unite all faiths is called Wormwood/the Abomination of desolation. cvillebiblebaptist.com/AdultEducation/Vatican%20and%20United%20Nations%20Bible.pdf
And Jesus Christ is calling His people out.
Rev 18:4
“And I heard another voice from heauen, saying, Come out of her, my people, that yee be not partakers of her sinnes, and that yee receiue not of her plagues:”
The most important thing to understand is that GOD CAN BE TRUSTED to preserve His word for every generation forever as He promises us in Psalms 12:6-7 and you do not need men to teach you.
1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which ye haue receiued of him, abideth in you: and yee need not that any man teach you: But, as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is trueth, and is no lye: and euen as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
It’s vital to know, especially right now, that God has kept His word in tact.
There is still an every word testimony with us!
The following clip by Reg Block is what the Lord used to open my eyes to the truth of Gods promises in Mark 13:31, Psalm 12:6-7, Psalms 138:2, and Matt 4:4 and so on.
It’s not more lifeless information. It is powerful and life changing and I’m grateful for it!
ruclips.net/video/tAMOquyQu-8/видео.html
The next video is a lesson by John Doerr on the pure word of God in the English language, which is found in the av1611 kjv. This is a much different testimony than the King James bible you are able to easily find in the churches and the so called "Christian bookstores". Please pray and genuinely take this before the Lord. He will show you. (Prepare to be attacked once you start down this path) The devil and his ministers don’t want this going out.
ruclips.net/video/C9lIWdQ0rc0/видео.html
I prayed a long time to know what the truth was, because over the years I grew increasingly confused, frustrated, misguided and so on.. But like most of us, I kept returning to church Sunday after next hoping something would change. If I sang more, prayed harder, got more involved, etc, ...maybe something would give. But nothing ever did. I must have walked a thousand isles. It had gotten to a point where a friend at the time said, “just try and sing". He meant well, but it was always disingenuous so I never did. Long story short - my whole Christian life was that way until recently. (powerless) God has since opened my eyes and I trust Him alone.
I really hope this reaches somebody. If this is you... honestly, please look into what I’m saying. God is rich in mercy and His patience is unmatched. He's been drawing me for a long time. Maybe He’s drawing you too and this is the message you needed.
This link is a series of interviews between Reg Block and John Doerr that go in depth regarding Johns trip to England for the purposes of co-producing three films: A lamp in the dark, Tares among the wheat and A bridge to babylon.
The three films (free to watch), cover the history of the bible. More specifically the preservation of Gods word and the measures that have been taken to cast doubt on, and ultimately destroy it.
(it's a treasure of information for the Saints) - find the first interview to start on.
ruclips.net/channel/UCIfGUbjTsGu1dfoNqYUZzmgvideos
here is one very final clip on the "servants of Lucifer"
ruclips.net/video/DuVTlYYos0c/видео.html
"(if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.”
It’s imperative to understand that the av1611 is much different than the 1769 KJV that most believe is the true 1611 but is not. The KJV only movement doesn’t use the authorized version of 1611 either.
This is the bible that Rome has been trying to destroy and cast doubt on since its inception. Everything, from the gun powder plot to false rumours of King James being gay. It contains all the prophecies in tact. Things like, what is the mark of the beast, what is wormwood, who and what is Antichrist, who are Leviathan and Behemoth representations of, and so on.
If the scriptures are broken, the prophets are killed and the church can’t hear what the Spirit is saying.
freely ye haue receiued, freely giue.”
Matt 10:8
@@underwaves75 I appreciate your message. I don't believe that any gathering of Christians is without sin. I don't believe that your interpretations of various verses of revelation are correct and represent what the readers of that letter would have understood it to be. I don't know what's going on in your life, but you're talking some strange things mate. I would urge you to turn from sin, trust in Christs finished work alone and look to Him and not your performance (its not good enough). Examine yourself by 1john to see if u truly have been saved. I know what its like to be frustrated with gatherings of Christians. That is because we are sinful. That is why we need to be with a solid group of Christian believers that hold to 2000 yrs worth of Christian truth. That we do not forsake gathering together. So we can be sanctified and grow in Christ. I genuinely appreciate your concern but it is not warranted. I will not stop gathering will Christians who love Jesus Christ, His word and His gospel and desire to spread knowledge of Him. I know He has preserved his word. I'm a theological student of roughly 3.5 years. I know Jesus. I know Him. He saved me from sin, death, hell, drugs, suicidality, porn, depression, darkness, hopelessness etc
You need to be very careful what your espousing right now, if your wrong (and i believe you are), your causing unneeded drama and will lead weaker/less knowledgeable Christians astray. He hasnt just drawn me.. im united to Jesus Christ by faith alone! Your not consistent in your thought or your exegesis and you may not have encountered the KJV only controversy by James white. One truthful hour spent on textural criticism would absolutely shatter your preconceived notions. I genuinely dont wish to offend you.
What if God gives the gift of saving faith to people who he chooses for his own glory? What if there was a guy who thought that a worshiping a jew Crucified by the Romans was offensive? So as he went about trying to destroy this sect of people, Jesus just shows up and says I have chosen you to do my will? 🙄 Would you believe in Jesus if it happened to you?
why have james white and william lane craig never sat down for a discussion about this? My suspicion is that Craig doesn't fancy his chances.
I don’t think that Craig wants to. It would be very interesting to see them debate.
He has to know Dr White would devastate his classical arguments because Dr White is strictly Tota and Sola Scriptura (which is by far the most meaningful). I would LOVE to see them have a discussion on Limited Atonement.
Fancy his chances in a discussion? Don’t you think that comes out as arrogant?
@@hymnsake not too bothered if it comes off as arrogant I believe we are all adults here. Im trying to attribute motive as to why it's never happened.
Agreed.
white has never discussed why sovereignty necessarily entails election
what do you think sovereignty means lolololololol
@@hondotheology yup, you’re proving my point. God is not in competition with his creation. He’s not on the same ontological map of being as we are ... ipsum esse subsistens. Luther studies under the nominalistic heretic Occam which lead to this corrupt idea that in order for god to be sovereign he mas order other beings who are of a similar nature as He ... nope, never discussed so the Calvinist heresy isn’t investigates. But thanks for reinforcing my point!
OSAS is the issue Provisionists stumble over as well. Many understand the nonsensical teaching coupled with LFW. God adopts, Christ dies for us, the Holy Spirit seals...
William Lane Craig honestly “hasn’t thought about this”?? 🤔 ??
Do preprogrammed individuals really glorify God more than an autonomous creature who can freely reject God but freely chooses not to?
Romans 9:22-26 says yes.
Dustin Dodson I don’t see anything about these creatures lacking autonomy though. And all the countless verses throughout the Bible that seem clearly to imply or simply state mans autonomy need to be taken into account along side the rather short passages in Romans 9
It glorifies God that every "choice" to not reject Him is a miracle
there are no "preprogrammed individuals" you misunderstand scripture, human nature, and God. you are reducing men to automatons because you cannot conceive that simultaneously we freely choose to believe yet God choose us. if it doesn't make sense to you, you must simplify it to something that does, rendering it meaningless and therefore denying it.
also Romans 9 isn't the only passage that describes God's sovereignty over our will. Genesis 50.20 the entire story of Joseph God ordered yet men chose to sell Joseph into slavery, to put him in prison, and make him prime minister of Egypt. Daniel 4 Nebuchadnezzar goes insane at God's command. 1 Sam 2.25 The sons of Eli refuse to repent because God does not want them to. We choose yet God holds us responsible for our choices. No it doesn't make sense to us but why should it? we are not God and if you want to make sense of it, you have to distort scripture and call us "automatons" because your mind refuses to accept what you do not understand. you want to understand God but you will not.
Rich coming from someone who believes that a loving God sat at the beginning of time and condemned a whole bunch of people to hell, come on guys...
Clearly your understanding of love is false. Highly false.
ian paterson PLEASE if you can sense the deadness of the institutional churches but can't put your finger on it. I'm pleading with you to understand something very important here. The mainstream Christian system is not of God.
Rev 17:5 - "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots, And Abominations Of The Earth."
Mystery Babylon The Great is the Vatican - “And the woman which thou sawest, is that great Citie which reigneth ouer the kings of the earth.” - Rev 17:18
And she has harlot daughters which represent the protestant churches.
And “the Abominations Of The Earth” are corrupt scriptures.
And the final bible that will unite all faiths is called Wormwood/the Abomination of desolation. cvillebiblebaptist.com/AdultEducation/Vatican%20and%20United%20Nations%20Bible.pdf
And Jesus Christ is calling His people out.
Rev 18:4
“And I heard another voice from heauen, saying, Come out of her, my people, that yee be not partakers of her sinnes, and that yee receiue not of her plagues:”
The most important thing to understand is that GOD CAN BE TRUSTED to preserve His word for every generation forever as He promises us in Psalms 12:6-7 and you do not need men to teach you.
1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which ye haue receiued of him, abideth in you: and yee need not that any man teach you: But, as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is trueth, and is no lye: and euen as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
It’s vital to know, especially right now, that God has kept His word in tact.
There is still an every word testimony with us!
The following clip by Reg Block is what the Lord used to open my eyes to the truth of Gods promises in Mark 13:31, Psalm 12:6-7, Psalms 138:2, and Matt 4:4 and so on.
It’s not more lifeless information. It is powerful and life changing and I’m grateful for it!
ruclips.net/video/tAMOquyQu-8/видео.html
The next video is a lesson by John Doerr on the pure word of God in the English language, which is found in the av1611 kjv. This is a much different testimony than the King James bible you are able to easily find in the churches and the so called "Christian bookstores". Please pray and genuinely take this before the Lord. He will show you. (Prepare to be attacked once you start down this path) The devil and his ministers don’t want this going out.
ruclips.net/video/C9lIWdQ0rc0/видео.html
I prayed a long time to know what the truth was, because over the years I grew increasingly confused, frustrated, misguided and so on.. But like most of us, I kept returning to church Sunday after next hoping something would change. If I sang more, prayed harder, got more involved, etc, ...maybe something would give. But nothing ever did. I must have walked a thousand isles. It had gotten to a point where a friend at the time said, “just try and sing". He meant well, but it was always disingenuous so I never did. Long story short - my whole Christian life was that way until recently. (powerless) God has since opened my eyes and I trust Him alone.
I really hope this reaches somebody. If this is you... honestly, please look into what I’m saying. God is rich in mercy and His patience is unmatched. He's been drawing me for a long time. Maybe He’s drawing you too and this is the message you needed.
This link is a series of interviews between Reg Block and John Doerr that go in depth regarding Johns trip to England for the purposes of co-producing three films: A lamp in the dark, Tares among the wheat and A bridge to babylon.
The three films (free to watch), cover the history of the bible. More specifically the preservation of Gods word and the measures that have been taken to cast doubt on, and ultimately destroy it.
(it's a treasure of information for the Saints) - find the first interview to start on.
ruclips.net/channel/UCIfGUbjTsGu1dfoNqYUZzmgvideos
here is one very final clip on the "servants of Lucifer"
ruclips.net/video/DuVTlYYos0c/видео.html
"(if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.”
It’s imperative to understand that the av1611 is much different than the 1769 KJV that most believe is the true 1611 but is not. The KJV only movement doesn’t use the authorized version of 1611 either.
This is the bible that Rome has been trying to destroy and cast doubt on since its inception. Everything, from the gun powder plot to false rumours of King James being gay. It contains all the prophecies in tact. Things like, what is the mark of the beast, what is wormwood, who and what is Antichrist, who are Leviathan and Behemoth representations of, and so on.
If the scriptures are broken, the prophets are killed and the church can’t hear what the Spirit is saying.
freely ye haue receiued, freely giue.”
Matt 10:8
What you don't understand is that we all deserve hell.
Hey Doug yes we do because we are sinful and turned away from God. Gods plan was never to condemn people to hell. In walking away from God we did this to ourselves. This is where grace comes in....
Molinism does not have Soteriological perspective. This is a philosophical issue. I'm not sure Dr. White knows that.
I assure you Dr. White knows exactly that. He speaks to that very topic many times in his videos.
It is getting some: we have ROSES by Kenneth Keathley and TRUMP by Tim Stratton
God needs to triage? Then He's not almighty. Utter blasphemy.
Such useless speculation...I think we should listen to the Apostle Paul and avoid trying to justify God using vain philosophy. We can rest knowing that the God of all the earth will do right.
WLC is a fanboi of Molina and Molina is a fanboi of Dr. Strange.
Whoa!! God is killing people in order to save?? I thought Christ came and died for others? 😳
Respect levels dropping hard for WLC.
Sorry but WLC's comment is billions of time more human than what the Calvinist God does; at least in the WLC example God is killing them to save them. The Calvinist God hates and barbecues in Hell, for his own good glory and sadistic pleasure, everyone who's name he didn't arbitrarily pull out of a hat prior to Creation.
@John Q. Public
Ok Johnny...
You think that this would be cool for a human to do? You ALWAYS say if god isn’t as good as a human then he isn’t any good at all. You have a sudden change of heart??
@@pateunuchity884 --- No. I'm just contrasting two views. The Calvinist God hates and barbecues everybody who didn't have their name arbitrarily pulled out of a hat prior to Creation. WLC is saying that if God killed them before they became apostate is doing so because he loves them.
@@JohnQPublic11 We were not given the reason clearly, but it by no means follows that the choice is arbitrary. Perhaps the reason is something inherent to God's nature. The problem is that you are making a dichotomy, and all that needs be done to show it incorrect is to posit one possibility, as I have. I'm sure I could come up with other possibilities as well, I know I've heard others speculated and posited. You thus don't have good grounds to claim that God's choice would be arbitrary.
@@MaD-hp9hq ---- lol! In the reality of the real world it is by definition arbitrary.
ar•bi•tra•ry är′bĭ-trĕr″ē►
adj. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle.
Existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will.
So by your own line of reasoning Dr. Flowers has proven Reformed Theology false by simply positing an alternative possibility.
You'll have to try harder.
Molinism is ridiculous and unbiblical. Nothing I've heard or read from WLC or any other Molinist has changed my mind. I don't know how they can think this view protects God's sovereignty or His wisdom.
I'm always amazed that proponents of this view think it's profoundly clever and they are a genius for believing it.
For James White, WLC, Turek, Geisler and all non-reformed, non-presupp, non- Calvinist are hell bound. Thank you James White for defining your Dividing Line mission , to bring toxics to all Christians on how to debate without gentleness and respect.
James White has never said that. He's always considered WLC, Turek, and Geisler and other non-reformed Christians as brothers in Christ.
You just made a false accusation.
Can't we Christians ever get along with each other? At times I don't know why the lord gave up such a subjective texts. The bible has many different books with many different authors with many different views on many different topics.
it's not subjective unless you want it to be
Well Calvinists are not Christians- they’re Calvinists, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t Christians, they are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Just like Mormons are not Christians, they are Mormons. So if your question is why can’t all these cults get along with Christianity, it’s because they have a different God.
17ACTSVERSE11
So the same would be true of Craig then right?? Since he’s a molanist?? ...you’re stuck closing a door that isn’t there...
@@tylerdavidw Molinism doesn't preach a different gospel. You do know Molinism isn't a soteriology, right?
@@ACTSVERSE Calvinists would be the group of Berean's that were searching the scripture to see if what was being said was true. William Lane Craig and many of his followers would be the ones hanging out in the areopagus afterwards indulging themselves in all sorts of vain philosophical speculations.
POS is just a version of OSAS as James White knows
I don't personally adhere to Molinism, but James White acts like it would be too difficult for God to have taken all these factors into consideration. Who has the weak view of God indeed!
Do you adhere to sola scriptura?
@@orangez1986 I adhere to the Bible, yes.
@@TrueLifeAdventures do you think Craig's argument is derived from the Bible?
@@orangez1986 Which argument specifically?
@@TrueLifeAdventures That God "takes all these factors into consideration"
Bro. James, the way you refer to the so-called triage demonstrates that you still don't understand God's middle knowledge. You say it makes God to be like an A.I., a super computer. But the mistake you are making is placing God's middle knowledge in time. We are speaking analogically here. God's middle knowledge is not temporally prior to his free knowledge; it's logically prior to it. From this perspective, it seems to me that God's providence would be contingent on his middle knowledge. God allows Joseph's brothers to freely reject him and sell him into Egypt. This Joseph can rightly say, they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
use the bible bro. actual exegesis
Mr White is out of his league going after Dr. Craig. William Lane Craig is an awesome role model and is doing what Mr. White should do- put his scholastic skills in practice to advance the faith.
Mr. White- really going after someone who has repeatedly defended the faith against militant atheist? Remember when you lost the debate to Bart Ehrman? William Lane Craig actually defeated Bart Ehrman in a debate. He did what you were unable.
Perhaps you would be able to counter Bart Ehrman if you actually focused on something productive instead of going after Christians who are serving God. Mr. White- what you are doing is self-serving. This really is disappointing.
William Lane Craig is someone you should be learning from. You are not equals in the scholastic field. Learn from him. Don't take pot shots. Very disappointing.
And yes Mr. White I know you have a PHD. But if you don't put your PHD to good use, I might as well call you Mr.
Both Calvinism and Molinism are false.
Which part of Calvinism is incorrect biblically?
@@gabrielkinzel3389 All of it.
Okie
@@LindsayJackel but wait, Calvinists believe in the unbreakable unity of the trinity, so is that unbiblical? I assume not
@@gabrielkinzel3389 LOL. Nice try.