Inkpulp Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- INKPULP PODCAST: Episode 196 with @matteoscalera @EricCanete @inkpulp Shawn Crystal
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It's odd because you don't really see the price argument with many other artists. Either people say to themselves that it's too much and move along or they pay up and get something. With Jim, it seems that people feel as if he's obligated to please everyone and that he should sacrifice his own personal worth to do so.
You guys nailed this argument, though. Either save up and buy something if you're really a fan or pipe down and move along.
Thanks for listening!
HONESTLY. HONESTLY.... comic art is so specialized every artist working should be adding zeroes to their commission prices. Owning a piece of original art IS a luxury item. There's nothing wrong with pricing it as such.
I like the way you think lol
Here's the thing though, yes a personalized commission from Jim would cost 20k, but there are a TON of his pieces out there at all different price points. A quick sketch is obviously much less and published covers go for much more. Also, there are so many artists out there with great access via social media to discover and they aren't as expensive. The home pricing analogy is correct here. It just costs more to live in Beverly Hills than Wichita Kansas.
Exactly!
From a buyers perspective, it is a case of rarity and a robust secondary market, once items reach a certain monetary value. I suspect that original pencil and inks are currently undervalued; providing a good investment. It is just a matter of time before the major auction houses (Christies & Southeby) get into the action and prices explode. The providence of an item makes a huge impact on prices which is why galleries, etc. are selective with who they sell to. For fine art it's about what collections your in and even recent graduates prices can escalate if the right collector purchases their work.
My favorite episode thus far. I love original art and browsing over portfolios of my favorite artists at conventions. Though I was well aware of the negative feedback regarding pricing from certain artists, I never cared to argue or debate on it. If I can't afford it then I move on and keep window shopping. Only times things ever get frustrating are when they're asshole handlers/reps to talk to, which is more related to poor customer service than costs.
In regard to the "new artist prices can be relatively high in comparison to more seasoned artists", I feel that part of it might be a cost of living reason. A newer artist jumping into sales at this moment may see a need to price higher from the start, whereas a seasoned artists has had years to inch up to this higher price point. Their starting "value" may have been significantly lower in the earlier stages of their career in part because the cost of living factor was also less significant.
I have also heard around my area from fellow artists that sales have been down in the last few years (and this is from artists in many different disciplines, not just comics related) so I do believe that folks are overall not buying as much art.
People don't buy art...they buy reputation behind the art.
Jim Lee's work just goes beyond illustration and goes into the fine arts/pop art realm. That's where the market price comes from, even if Jim had all the time in the world to draw or didn't work at DC anymore. He's a true legend in the industry.
Facts!
Man I wish I was able to discuss with you gents from a collector perspective. At the end of the day if an artist sets a price and people will buy it then good for them. Unfortunately there will always be a group that can and can't afford original work. I do think some of the art reps can get a bit out of hand with pricing but again... if people are willing to pay then so be it. What is a real bummer is when certain artists only have that one high price option. I like that Matteo discussed selling prelims, I went and checked them out and they are fantastic. Thanks as always for the content yall.
Thank you! And yeah,. his prelims are insane!
I think Jim Lee's prices are justified. A) If his art is being auctioned/selling for that, then why should he do it for less? B) How many times has his art been sold over the years for 10s of thousands of dollars, that he would have originally sold for a few hundred?
Youre right!
at 50:30 I've definitely priced some things at "you have to want to take it home more than I want to keep it". Where it's worth that much for me to just not give it up yet. Other things are probably too low, but some stuff... I just still have :)
Its a smart way to be!
The comment about there are more art reps inflating the prices. OR. OR. OR. maybe prices were too low for too long. I'm in an industry where the budgets to commission illustration haven't gone up for over 30 years or more. Inflation has risen but we're seeing the same fees if not lower fees than in the 80s and 90s. I'm talking about commercial illustration.
I was talking to Erik Larsen and he basically said the same thing as Matteo was saying. He said if he really doesn’t want to do a commission he charges 10k. And that was 15 years ago.
Thats good money lol!
preach! great info
Thanks Adam!
Great episode!!
I don't think I've ever really considered how much an artist has to think about when it comes to pricing their work.
Very interesting stuff.
Yeah, theres a lot to consider!
It's like people just noticed Jim's commission prices. The price for his commissions and original art has been high for a while now. However, some of this outrage seems to be misplaced. Not everyone is going to be able to be afford it. I understand its high but we aren't all going to be able to buy every expensive item we want in life. Some of the outrage might be because the average income in the US is around $67K and below. People also looking at it in the context of comic book art with people in tights might skew things. Some people from the comic book community are probably just shocked but they haven't been paying attention to original art prices
As you mentioned Jim is a busy guy. He's got a company to run, has 9 kids, and people all over the world that want him for their shows. He's said time and time again that he's got about 80 some shows before he's done.
Out of all the artists out there he might have done more free sketches and art for charity than anyone I am aware of. When he gives away free art only to see it being flipped on ebay it annoys him a lot. He's said if you had it for a couple years and need the money. Go ahead and sell it. But flipping something you got for free or practically free is a no no.
There is Jim Lee art out there that is not $20K. You can still buy pages for a lot less. And obviously there are people that are willing to pay him the rates he charges. If no one buys the prices wouldn't be where they are. There was a youtuber who pointed to a 5 figure piece on ebay talking about how Jim's art is so expensive. I am pretty sure those were given away and have been sitting on the site not being sold for well over a year or two. There was even a guy trying to flip drawing he did in the 80's for $15K because his argument being that is how much Jim charges. No one bought and its been sitting at $5,000 for almost a year
There is a premium being charged if there is an art rep involved. The art rep is also supposed to gauge the market and keep the prices at higher or acceptable level for his client. It sucks for the buyer but thats the market
The argument about original art being like luxury goods works but it also doesn't. Sure its built on a brand and a name but the good they sell these days are far inferior. Most are made in 3rd world countries and finished in higher paying countries just so they can claim it came from the higher paying country. But it works on snob appeal. Majority of the luxury brands make their money off people who want to show off to others. Usually the demographic that shouldn't be buying such things
Matteo talking about Ferrari is like the fine art market. They have specific social circles and they work to keep people out. Even if you have the money. Its a club for rich people to launder money and we are not a part of it even if we suddenly came into that type of money. Daniel Radcliff wanted to buy a painting from a specific artist and the art dealer wouldnt let him but it. Why? Because he wasn't the type of person they wanted owning that art. It wasn't until the artist called the dealer to vouch for him that he was able to buy it
I believe the flippers and the ease of selling things online has definitely had a big impact on the market. There is some shady dealing going on in the auction and appraisal business that is driving up the prices. You see it in other markets like the retro video game market. Prices are being driven up artificially high. There are people being suckered into buying items at inflated prices then selling it for a loss. There are some original art sellers who are also doing this. They are buying strictly to resell for an inflate prices. There are people buying art from one site and listing it for sale on another site even before they have the item in hand
I remember before the internet and flipping being such a big thing most artist not minding doing a quick head sketch. I looked at the prices for sketches at San Diego and it was $50 - $80 on average. With some charging $200 - $650 for large head sketched. They are free to charge what they want but I thinking what this hobby is coming to. Guess guys telling Amanda Conner a sob story for a Harley sketch and flipping it on ebay was what ruined it for the rest of us. That also the reason Adam Hughes prices keep going up. He was charging $100 - $150 for the longest time around the late 90s but it kept on being resold as soon as people got them
As for setting a high price because you hate doing it. Like a sketch cover. Brett Booth has a price for sketch covers that people aren't going to pay. He did it because he really hates doing them. I also remember Jim mentioning on a stream that he doesn't like doing commissions
As for limiting art to keep prices at a certain level there is some of that. Walt Simonson and Barry Windsor Smith come to mind. There is much original Simonson pages. If there are, its usually from the inker. Extremely rare. Barry didn't sell most of his art until recently. I guess since he's done with comics he is finally letting some of it go. His weapon x pages were quickly bought up and flipped a couple times. This seems to happen whenever an artist who's work is rare and expensive happens to put up some stuff for sale. Saw the same thing happen when Travis Charest put up some covers. So as much as you'd want a real fan to own your art. Its hard. Sometimes its hard to just figure out the real fans from a flipper
I think a lot of people can understand someone making a lot of money despite their lack of skill. There are plenty of good artist that don't get the love or money they should be getting. There are guys who do a dead on copy of Jim but they won't get the Jim prices
The economy is definitely slowing down. Same show i go to, two years ago was extremely busy. Last year was a lot slower. The overall economic reports and hiring has slowed to a crawl. Even the government isn't hiring, and they always have jobs. This same slowdown is being seeing in the online sale of expensive comic books and original art. People aren't staying home with money to spend and lower interest rates. The fed just said oops we have almost a million jobs less than we claimed we did so who know how that will affect the markets
Jim told a story about Kevin Nowlan. He loves Kevin's art. When Nolan inked over his art he was hoping that he would give it that Nolan look. Nope, he stuck to Jim's pencils. He was disappointed
One of my big regrets in life was not buying Jim Lee Uncanny X-men and X-men pages when i was offered them at a discount
Yojimbo
Fascinating discussion. As one of the OG listener/viewers, I definitely saw the livestream prices as a limited time only early adopter type of situation. There’s no way the prices will stay that low. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to snag anything, but it was definitely cool that it was within reach. To me, I don’t think you’re flooding the market because they’re much different than an original of a published page. I collect to capture experiences, which is likely a much different reason than many. I own some of Shawn’s pages because of the experiences I had listening to inkpulp audio. I have some SGM pages from Punk Rock Jesus and Cafe Racer because of the experiences I had listening to his episodes and reading those books. I have Ryan Ottley pages from invincible because I got to talk to him at a show and I love that book. I can’t afford any of those artists’ pages now that their careers are bigger and frankly that makes me happy for them that they’re doing so well. I also prefer buying pages from creator owned books over corporate IP characters, but that’s probably just a little of the old punk in me. Anyway, very interesting discussion. I love hearing creators talk shop.
Thanks Cory!
Great conversation fellas! I agree that Jim should charge whatever he feels and obviously working with a rep makes it more expensive, but it's also saying that if he's gonna take the time to do it, it has to be worth it. I loved hearing each of your takes on how an artist values their own work/commissions/thumbs/etc.
Thanks for listening brotha!
I hate doing commissions but if someone really wants one from me they’re gonna have to pay me A LOT of money. They might hear the number and not want the commission anymore, I’m which case I’m happy because I don’t gotta do the commission. And if they can afford it well damn now I gotta do a commission and that sucks but at least I’m getting a good amount of money.
Great way to be!
Muscle relaxers explains Eric’s smooth FM Talkshow voice…
AHAHAHAHAH!
real talk drawing all day is brutal on your body, ulnar nerve pain is the bane of my existence
Im sorry to hear it! Maybe some daily stretches would help!
@@inkpulp thank you, yessir stretching is essential, i'm working maintenance and that helps a lot too 🤘🏼
You guys really hit home with this episode. As a long time art collector I have seen prices increase and my collection decrease. I'm not mad about it every artist should charge whatever they feel like and if someone is willing to pay it good for them. I do think that artists should consider a lower barrier of entry only for the reason that it gets people interested in your work. I was able to get commissions from Shawn and Eric early on and ever since then I almost feel like it's my duty to buy any of their personal projects whether it be their comics or sketch books besides the fact that I love their work and want to see more. I think it makes a connection with certain fans. The problem is how do you weed out the flippers from the fans?
Thanks for you support Frank, and yes, you raise a great question.
It seems like in the world of art comic book artists get the short end of the stick. It seems like comic art is way undervalued. It seems like an industry where there are fans and the fans feel because they are buying the books 'supporting the artists' they should be entitled to cheap original art. I think if they're really that big of a fan they'll do what it takes to make the money to pay the commission fee. Comic artists make shit money in general. The commissions are a great source for them to earn a descent living.
agreed as a general contractor also u charge based on effort and knowledge
Facts!
You think you’ll ever get Tyler Crook on the show?
I like Tyler, I dont even know if he does stuff like this
@@inkpulp Yeah, he’s done a bunch of web interviews. Has his own show on Friday night called Comic book cool down. Great show.
If i can make $5000 on one job for an illustration for a company then an ORIGINAL one of one Jim Lee of course is $30,000. That's cheap in my opinion.
Agreed!
"Infants digging into their diapers & discovering poo" _E.C.