This is an absolutely critical video! Flying helicopters is challenging, and adding the trim abstractions without understanding what they do can cause so much frustration. Thank you for taking the time to really dive into this and all the issues with each mode.
Finally a trim tutorial with separate feed of an actual stick! All the other videos just reference the controls overlay. Your content really is a cut above the rest! Another well made and detailed guide 👍👍👍👍👍
Cheers! I felt it quite important to show the physical stick, pity i couldn't figure out a way to show rudder pedals too, so i made a point of making noise with them.
Would be better if they could make a double-press trim reset button. Eg. the first press would reset the trim by half, then the second would reset it fully. That could alleviate the jerkiness of trim resetting
Disabling trim on the rudder pedals is a great tip. Thank you! I’ve been flying with no trim and it’s been ok, just a little taxing on long cruises. As long as I can get the cyclic trimmed, I’m good to go :)
I have rudder pedals where I can easily unhook the spring (MFG Crosswinds) which I now use for helicopter flying: so much more intuitive and no tired legs.
I do this on the Mi24, but leave trim on for the Huey. I’ll have to try pedal trim off on the Apache, I’m comfortable with manual pedals from years of IL2 German planes. Sounds like a good compromise.
I've been at it fighting with the controls the entire way for like six weeks now, and was taking pointers from people with the FFB (mine is spring), and had sooo many issues with the Apache. This is EXACTLY what EVERYONE needs to see FIRST! Most. Important. Video. Available.
You know ... I had so many people argue with me about how devs shouldn't add "Reset trim" as a QoL change, luckily bignew said that it's on their todo list now. Just non-stop ... "We don't need trim reset, wags made a video about it just change the special options mode for trimming and you won't have issues" And I'm just like ... "What on earth ..." I was getting to a point where I wanted to make a video to basically explain to people why it would be good to have but I just suck at describing the issues and don't really have the time or the will, your video is like spot on my man, only thing I could do is thank you. Thanks man.
I honestly don't get the pushback on having a Trim reset control. It's a quality of life / accessibility addition to deal with the lack of force feedback. I'm always in favour of optional extra settings for players. (trigger guard is another I'd like to see a toggle for!) If you don't like it, don't use it, just like the other trimmer mode options.
People like to impress some sort of superiority over others and get offended at the idea that someone else wants something 'easier' because it takes away from their personal sense of achievement. It's all rather silly.
Great job, @RedKite. You’ve nailed it and having that old ass joy stick is a super handy way to demonstrate it. Nice! I have to say the center position killed me many times today on stream. I’m partial to the default one.
@@ToreDL87 G940 was so rad.... When the hatswitches on the throttle still worked. honestly FFB is kinda gimmicky from the perspective of using the G940 for the last decade. wanna upgrade soon.
It would definitely be beneficial to have a 'trim reset' or recentre button, even though it isn't present on the actual aircraft. It is possible to fly effectively without it as long as you keep mental track of your trim position, but it would certainly be helpful for the vast majority of users who have spring sticks that don't work the same as the real aircraft... A good argument for usability over realism in this case, hopefully ED will take notice
One important advice for the "Central Position Trimmer mode", use the "force trim release" button, as a "release the trimming force" button and not like a "trim now" switch! The trim action happens on release of the button, not when you depress. Depress and HOLD the "trim release" whenever you turn, accelerate or decelerate, basically whenever you don't just make the small corrections. If you learn to remember the rough position of the stick (and or look down to check) and put it there to "pick up" the position with pressing and holding the trim release, you minimize the problems with the limits of the physical sticks movement, plus it does not require multiple quick trim inputs. Btw. this works for the Huey, Ka-50, Mi-24 and Mi-8 as well.
We have a real-life, mechanical "trim release" trigger on our SDZ-54 Perkoz gliders, for pitch trim. A trigger on the stick you reach with your little finger. Releases the pitch trim springs so that they move with the stick. Release the trigger and whatever angle the stick is at is now the trimmed position.
@@RoamingAdhocrat Yep, gliders use a simple mechanical "trim release", but keep in mind especially in gliders the pilot feels the forces acting on the controlsurfaces through mechanical linkage. A helicopter uses a hydraulic system, that feels totally different, if "trim release" is depressed or force trim deactivated completely. I had a chance to feel it once, but not fly it IRL. You can really move it without applying much force, like holding it with the fingertips. The hydraulics do the job.
10:37 A "damper" is something that controls movement, usually adding resistance to motion based on motion velocity. A "dampener" is something that makes you moist/wet. =)
@@RedKiteRender No worries, and a great video Kite, always loved your tutorials. Just one of those things I run into a lot and has become a pet peeve. :D
For those who are struggling with trim, you are not alone. Trim is one of the top three issues that real life Apache trainees struggle with during initial aircraft training. Time and iterations is what it takes, and in DCS having the control display helps to maintain situational awareness about where the trim is currently set.
If ED would add a recenter timeout to the central position trimmer mode that restores control after a short time regardless of whether you recentered your controls or not, it would alleviate the problems with that trim mode.
Force trim is the one feature that saved me. I tried playing with the axis curves and that helped a little, but force trim is what made it stable. I have it bound on my thumb switch on my throttle. Best button bind ever!
Well, there is a reason why I preserved my Sidewinder FF stick as long as possible. Personally, I was very sad when FF died, I had really hoped to see more FF sticks, especially of the HOTAS variation. But they never showed up on the market. Back in the early 2000s, my FF stick usage was the secret of my success at "Warbirds"...
It always was the secret of success in Il-2 as well. It basically carried over to Rise of Flight (extremely good implementation) and BoX. Logitech tried in 2009 with the G940, but that thing had some major flaws and was pulled from the market quickly without the very much needed Rev 2. I still use my old FFB2, it basically hit legal age. It's my second one though. They both have a faulty twist axis and when that happened with the 2nd, I just bought pedals back in 2006. That way I made the step to have them and a backup stick at the same time. Never needed to pull that one out of the box though... this thing is rugged AF. And I know quite a bunch of people who bought a second or even a third one back in the day, just for the case they might need a replacement. This shows how great it was and still is. I mean, who's got a spare TMWH, Virpil or VKB around, just for backup reasons?
I've actually never had a problem with how "intuitive" it is I guess because having some of that disjointed-ness has always been something I've expected with helos? The fact that I have had to exclusively use a twist stick to fly them so far may explain part of that too. What I have had, though, is trouble with the trimmer mode- I don't like return to centre because I find it too slow and obviously with force feedback there is zero delay, so I usually have to be pretty careful when not using return to centre and you'll catch me getting clever with it and realesing the pressure on the stick very fast, which with practice I do find works well. I also absolutely suffer from loosing that range of motion when trimmed, but equally "counter trimming" has just become a part of my workflow when I need to do a hard manoeuvre, I just slam the trim wherever I need and it has at this point become intuitive and natural. I really only found myself doing this with the KA-50 anyway as it lets you really throw it around and can take a little longer than I expect to react to things, unlike the Hind which is big and lumbering, but expectedly so. For me this renders the on screen controls display unnecessary, which is good because I personally find it unbelievably ugly, irrationally so, I can't even tell you why. Maybe I think it's mocking my abilities or pride or something.
I really miss the Sidewinder FFB. I never understood why they quit making them. They worked so good in WW2 planes also, because you could actually feel the plane. Both center trimming and instant you still have to center the controls. I found attitude trim works best when flying to a WP.
I still use a 20+ year old MS Sidewinder FFB stick when flying in DCS. It's immersive and fun in VR even if the deadzone and plastic buttons may not be as great. Amazed it still works though. I do hope to see more main streamed force feedback solutions in a soon future if possible (and do hope the patent isn't renewed, it deleted the FFB from the flight sticks). Btw. I also love the Ah64 IHADSS integration in VR.
@@fermd83 I'm so sorry, answered and watched this while not having my equipment at hand. I repost an answer here as soon I got it and can run DCS in vr again. (It may take up to two weeks.) Guess I would have the same problem, hope to find a solution.
@@fermd83 Hi, Finally got back home and got time to messed around a little bit in DCS with the trim and my MS Sidewinder. And of course I got my self some other issues with the trim at first, it did correctly on looking at the joystick helper thingie (ctrl+enter), but the force feedback just kicked the stick in the opposite direction, like it reset the center as if it was mirrored. (It may just be me how's not used to how this should work). At a few times I got it to work like I wanted and I don't recall my stick to offset, if so not by very much. But have a theory that it has to do with the deadzone for our sticks, that does that, it stop sensing where the joystick are as soon the stick center itself inside its own deadzone. Fortunate for us, ED have now implemented a trim reset button. Sorry for taking so long with my answer.
In my experience with the huey, trim reset was something I only used when my stick was already close to centered (often when I am in the middle of a hover transition). Otherwise, the aircraft goes absolutely crazy because of the sudden change in control inputs. I also don't enable rudder trim because I have never encountered a situation where I can have both stick and rudder centered at the same time. Because of this, trim reset is never a safe option if I have rudder trim enabled. I can only use one or the other.
I really appreciate you making this video. Looks very time consuming but benefits all of us. I've been trying to disable the trim for the rudder since I'm so used to the KA-50.
Excellent analysis. I currently fly with the Warthog without main spring to fly without trim at all. So sad, we don't have any new Force Feedback Stick Systems on the Hotas-market right now. Glad to see your Sidewinder FFB stick still works. These were great times!
I found what best works for me is what you suggested - instant for stick and not trim for pedals. Especially no trim for pedals is what finally made me be able to fly helos. Took me so long and so many crashed to find that out .
Learned so much about trim in DCS from this. Thank you RK. I’ve had the privilege to fly a UH-60 sim with the force trim to see what it’s actually like, and it breaks my heart to think FFB controls don’t exist on the market today.
RedKite you produce the best tutorials on how things function in DCS. Well done! No one else comes close in getting into the guts and problems in these modules.
This video was really well made and you explained the trim very clearly. The trim in DCS helos has always felt weird to me, and now I know why, thanks a lot!
Thank you! Disabling trim on the pedals is huge! It was really the only major problem I was having given how sensitive the Apache is to input at low speed. I’ve flown all of the DCS helicopters and I have to say that I have a newfound appreciation for just how stable and easy to fly the Shark is after the Apache. I had just assumed the Apache would be superior in every way but, especially without the hold modes, the shark is a far better help for hovering and stability
Great video. Thanks much ! I watched the Wags vid for Apache control bindings and he mentioned a Trim Release. I recall it's called Force Trim "UP" in the pilot controls menu. I haven't tested anything & just now getting my bindings squared away.
Hello and thank you for this video! Yesterday I switched trim mode from instant trim to central position and ... Oh man, now I'm able to gracefully transition and hover while trimming the bird and without looking like I'm having a stroke. I think this should be the default trim setting
I have all other helicopters, but only struggled with trim with the Apache. The other ones have one more option "default", which is missing in the Apache. And you can disable the Rudder trimmer in the Special settings. Thanks for the video. Really good.
Well done sir, gonna practice more. This is my first time with helos and I was doing large trims and thinking it worked like fixed wing in my head. The light snapped on with this vid.
Nice to see I'm not the only Sidewinder FFB2 out there, sad that there are so few force feedback options and that they don't make this anymore. Removing rudder trim is going to make the big difference for me. Thanks for this.
As always you're the most straight to the point guy, I watched all of the existing trim videos and yours displays the trim limitations perfectly, if I could subscribe again I would. I took tinkering on my side to figure all of this out on my own, but for others this is THE video to watch. Thanks!!!
Wow, I haven't yet tried flying the Apache and I decided I should research how trim works in DCS helos and I saw this video had been posted less than an hour before. Amazingly timely and wonderful video, I feel like I'll be much more comfortable flying now.
Thank you for doing this, RedKite! I'm always trying to explain this to fellow users and your illustration and clear explanation will really help. Also, there's no reason DCS's "center offset" trim system should limit the control extents! That's shocking to learn! Instead it should scale so that the real-world controller extents always reach the virtual stick extents. I always assumed that was how it worked, but as I have a Logitech FFB stick, I never noticed it. No wonder I crash when I forget to turn FFB on before flying choppers! I only really noticed the issues when I got the Hind and wanted to apply trim to the pedals as is realistic for that type. (But not for any of the choppers we have that preceded it.) That's insane! They should add directional trim to choppers (which the Hind has already) as another work-around for non-FFB stick people. Not realistic, but then neither is the Trim Release that all the DCS choppers have (except the Apache though I believe they've promised it's coming).
Oh and here's another stupid thing. There's no need for the FFB FRIENDLY option as DCS disables the "return to center" BS when FFB is enabled automatically. So you can keep the special menu on "Central Position" mode and not worry about it messing you up when you use your FFB stick. If you forget to turn FFB on, you'll then be in the mode you probably prefer. (I wish I could keep FFB on all the time but it will just not play nicely with many of the DCS aircraft and even the ones it does work okay in have bad trim offsets that I wish we had an option to bias. I do use FFB on all the DCS choppers, but sometimes I don't due to all the time it takes to exit the mission/server and restart the sim to change the setting. Then the insanity begins! LOL!) It's no wonder nobody figures this out. Thanks again! ED have needed this tutorial since their first choppers came out!
I found enabling the trimmer for the pedals to be very distracting. Part of the issue is inherent to the Apache; there is no independent trim release for the pedals like there are on bette... I mean, other helicopters (UH-60, for instance). I found the best thing is to use the third trimmer option for the pedals (Joystick without springs and FFB) and just flight the return force (Or disconnect the spring from my pedals). For the stick, I prefer the first option. I hate the loss of control. For the first trimmer option, I think a setting that changes the rate at which trim position moves from the old to new center point. That could help reduce the transient when trimming. BTW, this is the best video on helicopter trim in DCS that I've seen. Very well done. I agree with just about all your points.
Reddit! Thank you for explaining the trim settings. I’ve always flown helos without rudder trim as I always forgot to move my rudder pedals. The nugget at the end of your vid about the rudder setting now allows me to do the same with the Apache. Eureka moment for me!
WELL DONE! I could never fully explain each trim mode but now I can just link this video and send people on their way. Thank you! and keep the quality coming.
Thanks for this video, really helpful and very clear explanations. I also have a Sidewinder 2 FFB stick, didn't realize that it you can hold the trimmer button, move the stick, and it stays where you release the trim button! Amazing and thanks for that "reveal"! I just wish the FFB 2 had more buttons and hats on it...maybe I'll dig it out and try it with the Huey (but the Apache...so shiny and new!) Thanks again for the work in this video
I know it's my opinion but the central position trimmer mode seems to be the best option overall provided you're thinking ahead and making the trim corrections in advance of velocity/attitude changes (The trim is to combat hand fatigue - once the trip leg has been made and it's time to start changing speed, you are removing the trim and placing the burden back on your hand) It's an increase in the mental workload (same as instant) but this increase in workload normally comes at a time before interactions have dire consequences for errors. I've killed a LOT of Apaches in the last few days before I gave up and started enabling the Controls/Trim position overlay (RCtrl+Enter) I hated having it up because of how it affected my immersion, but considering I'm working with a spring centering stick, It's really the only way to give you reference in absence of a FFB stick. My flights have since become a lot smoother, and while I may still occasionaly bend a rotor, I'm no longer totalling airframes. Great news that they will be adding a reset!
I hope there will be some kind of anti-torque rotor stabilization function added (so it will hold constant heading when the rudder axis is centered no matter if the helo is in a hover or at speed). I've read somewhere that this feature is actually on a real Apache, but I might be wrong on that assumption.
I wish too it would be a feature or a setting that you can switch on/off in the special tap, I have gotten use to the ka 50 counter rotating rotor when I jumped in the apache the rudder shat in my pants
That last statement on FFB sticks - well... There actually are FFB bases that you can buy. Brunner makes them - but they are fairly costly at around ~1500 buckaroos. You can also buy an FFB base from walmis (Vpforce Rhino) and it's "only" over 800 euros, so half the price - but also with better internals. A good deal if you ask me, but I understand it very well that not many people are willing to pay that kind of cash. (It is freaking great, though, for helicopters and non-FBW airplanes especially, but you can also use some FFB effects in FBW planes, which is pretty great as well)
I definitely am using a mix and finding it the most efficient. Being Central Trim for Cyclic, and Pedals without Sprint cheat for my Pedals. I definitely hope a trim reset is added, I think you really help in justifying why in the sim world it is required due to equipment limitations.
This is such an important video! I understood the concept a long time (which doesn't mean I still sometimes crash because of it) but it's so hard to explain if someone you fly with struggles (The KA-50 is a classic because a kind of confusing Autopilot system comes in). Now you can just refer to this video! Excellent
haha yeah.. the times i thought the shark was trying to kill me... it took a community mod to seperate pedals from trim before i finally started understanding how to use the ap banks instead of fighting it. now i just fly with ffb.
Since my current flight stick is a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro---spring action and no FFB---I'm rather inspired by FFB when I discovered herewith that there's more to the FFB than an effects enhancer that simply rumbles on impact with some virtual entity :) Around 5:20 you begin to demonstrate respective trim choices under "Special" settings....... in the "Instant" mode you explained what I recall was particularly difficult to grasp when I'd bought the A-10C Warthog standalone in 2012 or so....... "cumulative" effects to trim were tough to manage; I actually wondered why such an effect would be of any value and if that was the actual trim system in the real-world A-10?!?! Around 6:20 you cover the cumulative effects to rudder trim. Admittedly an "empty vessel" of advanced knowledge at this point, I'm often compelled to attempt to trim out the spinning on takeoff and/or the constant left-rudder hold until underway in forward flight. I'm a bit confused about rudder, though...... I can only presume that up to a certain speed, only tail rotor blade pitch works the yaw, then at a certain speed rudder can take effect........ (?). Yet another work of excellence here, RedKite. Thanks!!
As you speed up, the aerodynamic effects will stabilise the aircraft (same way a plane does) So you need less anti-torque (yaw) input to fly straight. You also generate extra lift, as a result of the two combined you burn less fuel in flight than a hover. The anti-torque becomes less effective at speed, because the airframe wants to weathervane back into the direction of travel, so rolling and pitch is necessary to change directions at that point.
Phenomenal video, and a little tip for the audio maybe cut the bass frequencies a little bit? It may also be just because you’re too close to your microphone but it makes the words you say a little hard to hear because it’s kinda muddy
When it comes to these modules there needs to come to a point where some "realism" is sacrificed for in game functionality. While a trim release may not be realistic to an Apache, it makes up for the fact that a person playing a sim at a desk doesn't have the same feedback as a pilot in an actual Apache. Not to mention someone flying a real Apache isn't staring at a controls indicator, to center things in order to release trim. Something as simple as a guarded switch in a real aircraft is as easy as flipping a guard and pushing a button in one basic movement. Some people will say it's not realistic to just flip the same switch in game, so now we get a separate command to lift the guard. Now I have to bind something to simulate releasing a guard just to flip a switch on my hotas. This in itself isn't realistic being that the guard in the real aircraft has no electrical connection to the aircraft, it's simply a spring loaded guard. Now lets say I build a cockpit, with an actual guarded switch. I still have to come up with some creative way to have the sim recognize when the guard is up or down in order to use it. As modules get more advanced, with more features added, they're becoming more complicated than the aircraft they're designed to emulate.
Exactly. I don't understand why this is seen as a problem. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't use the weapons from the back seat and it was because of the trigger guard. Seriously? There is literally no point to have that be necessary. At least they are implementing a trim reset now. I saw someone ask for that and Wags literally just responded, "AH-64 doesn't have that." Ok dude, no one cares, this isn't the real aircraft and I'm sitting at a desk trying to fly it.
I have the VKB MCG Pro as joystick grip. I selected it over Virpil because it has better capabilities like the brake lever is an axis, and the flip trigger is as well an axis. Because these are axis and there is sensor to detect when the flip trigger is up or down, you can simulate multiple different real world grips. Example, in KA-50 you have the flip up trigger so that when it is UP, the gun is selected and the dual-stage trigger (red) is trigger for cannon. When the trigger is DOWN, the gun mode is disabled and you have your inner/outer stations selected and you launch the weapon by pulling the flip-trigger fully. Now do that same with the Apache now. But reverse. Flip trigger UP = Armed. Flip trigger down = Safety. The difference is that you say, in real trigger that safety is spring loaded, so it will cover the trigger again, where in MCG Pro you don't have spring to return it down. But you will get that exact same functionality that to fire weapon, you need to place finger under the safety cover and shoot. To avoid this "cheating", we can use exactly that programmed "safety up" feature, so because there is space to slide finger under Flip Trigger, you can't use trigger as you have not removed safety. That is the nice feature to just understand that you have a cover you need to deal with, and just by grabbing or pumping grip when flip-trigger is down will not fire the weapon so you must realize to remove safety. This flip-up trigger is amazing feeling in KA-50. And so as well in Apache. Binding to joystick only the real functions that real grips has, and same thing with collective (or throttle if flying fixed wing) that you really don't need so many buttons and features in any of them, you have less functions to make, and you enjoy with the limited real world grips functions as you are required to move hands around in virtual cockpit to operate aircraft instead just pressing buttons in throttle or joystick that is not suppose to have such functions. In my MCG Pro I have seven buttons in it. 1) UP 2) Virtual button for modifier (UP) 3) Down 4) Virtual button for modifier (Down) 5) First detent 5-50% pull. 6) Second detent when physical spring loaded button is pressed. 7) Full pull (90-100% scale) One trigger, six functions. Under there is that dual-stage red trigger, and I can change its functionality with that 2nd virtual button modifier, so I can have example PTT in the first detent, and then have Autopilot Override with second detent. If I go quickly to second, first detent is ignored and I can fly in Su-27 without disabling level flight as should. If I just pull first I get PTT, and then same time VoiceAttack reacts and listen microphone and I can speak the radio commands. And when I want to use missiles in BVR mode, I flip trigger down, now I can launch missiles with gentle pull to first phase, or I can quickly pull to select a gun, and then gentle pull will fire the gun. To deselect gun I either flip trigger up or I quickly pull fully and release and I am back to BVR mode (problem if need to go back to A-G mode). The axis are powerful features with virtual buttons. I have three buttons in the brake grip. It is full axis, but then there is one virtual button for 0-5%, one for 30-50% IIRC and then one at the end at about 95-100% And this way example when I am up in the air, I can command something with full pull when axis reacts only for wheels brake but as they are not extended you don't have conflict etc. I can make that grip as extra button for paddle switch in hornet just by touching that grip slightly. Or I can have it as modifier for T-rudders work as brake pedals for taxiing. But the key is that you take the programmability, and then implement real functions to closest possible right places. Example, the left mini-axis stick is in A-10 and F-16 the TDM 4-way hat. The center 5-way hat is the DMS hat. It doesn't matter to me that they are different feeling and shape, as both are programmed 4-way hats in secondary virtual hat mode to where I can switch when switching modules in DCS.
I find the current trimmer model easy to use. When you trim on Central Position trimmer mode you center both controls as you trim, effectively releasing them momentarily then returning to control. It couldn't be any simpler. You just have to automatically do this as you trim.
Just note, the values of trim are not multiplied, but added. It is trimmed position+axis commands. By saying "multiplied" it sounds like trimmed position * axis command Refer to 6:35
After several crashes in the Hind where I realized it was because I was locked out of controls and hadn't returned to center, I was using the default/instant type. For some reason I greatly dislike this one in the Apache. I've now switched back to all central trimmer and I'm pretty happy with it. After a little practice building muscle memory, it's no different than remembering to open the trigger guard or something. Just hit the trim and relax your grip for a moment. That said, they NEED to shoehorn in a trim reset. The Apache doesn't have one, but it also doesn't have a spring centered cyclic either, so arguing it's not realistic would be a moot point.
I was scratching my head for hours trying to figure out WTH was going on with my Apache Trim! Thanks for explaining what was going on! Man I miss my M$ force feedback stick now!!!! :((
Thanks Redkite, I can't even count how many times I have crashed or rollled 360, or 720 degrees before crashing. Please let them bring us a Trim Reset. I am all for simulation, but here, maybe a cheat key is needed Damn I wish I kept my FF stick like the one you have. I use to love that thing when it was cutting edge. Now I have to make do with this awesome Warthog Throttle and stick, although I think I prefer the F/A-18C grip for the apache, just sort of feels right, even though my original A-10C stick is a closer representation of the real thing Great Work Red
FFB is such a great lost tech. It was used a quite bit for gimmicks and random vibration / motions, but in sims, it was a game changer when implemented properly (like il-2 where the stick resistance changes with airspeed for example!) What I'd give to see it return, esp with a Warthog/Virpil compatible connector!
@@RedKiteRender I could not agree with you more. There was something very organic about it in the early days of IL2, really gave you a sense of trying to move control surfaces
Back in the day when people suggested you to get a Saitek X45 or 52, but hide the stick somewhere behind the monitor and use an FFB2 instead. And Simped Vario Pro pedals :)
I think it's silly to say that a trim reset button isn't realistic. The button doesn't represent a button in the aircraft. It represents the pilot moving their controls back to the center and setting the trim there. It's no less realistic than pressing a button to look left.
Ive mastered the trim technique while using the indicator now, but since we don’t all have a force feedback, we absolutely need a trim reset, so we can at least fly without the indicator
I've been debating putting rudder in instant trim, and keeping the stick on center, since it's usually not too much of a pain. The biggest issue for me is with my rudders, I may not perfectly center it. But your idea to go with Option 3 and just technically not have trim might be a good idea too.
i believe the patents owned by microsoft and immersion on FFB have all expried now, so was sincerely hoping some of these manufacturers would put one into production with the ever-rising popularity of DCS and MSFS2020. I really hope they do, i would be the first in the queue to grab one!
I quite like the return to center mode, just had to develop a habit of "hit trim button -> let go of stick, lift feet from pedals" to make the most of it. =)
Really hoping for a reset trim feature in the near future. It may not be 100% realistic, but we're having to contend with an unrealistic problem as it is since, as you mentioned, the vast majority of joysticks can't provide a physical sense to the joystick's position. Real Apache pilots don't have to deal with this: if they did, they'd probably be clamoring for a reset trim function as well, if it hadn't been already added to the real aircraft. :P
I miss my old MS Force Feedback stick. I picked it up on Ebay for £5 around 2004. Only downside was it had the pre-USB connector, which plugged directly into the graphics card. When those eventually became redundant I think i binned it. Didn't think at the time I should have just bought a USB converter cable. Damn! :(( Anyway thanks for this tutorial. Being new to helis on DCS, helicopter trim was confusing the hell out of me. Now it all makes sense....well, mostly makes sense.
There is a solution for a very well made - and a bit expensive - force feedback base. Brunner manufacture very high quality products that work great with our sims, including DCS World as well. Nevertheless, since the patent used by Microsoft and Logitech for their joysticks back in the day is now available again, that would be great too see them come back to this market with more affordable solutions that the one offered by Brunner.
Thank you soooooooo much for this video RedKite! I finally was able to understand and use the trim properly... and stopped crashing! xD You're a legend!
This is an absolutely critical video! Flying helicopters is challenging, and adding the trim abstractions without understanding what they do can cause so much frustration. Thank you for taking the time to really dive into this and all the issues with each mode.
Finally a trim tutorial with separate feed of an actual stick! All the other videos just reference the controls overlay. Your content really is a cut above the rest! Another well made and detailed guide 👍👍👍👍👍
Cheers! I felt it quite important to show the physical stick, pity i couldn't figure out a way to show rudder pedals too, so i made a point of making noise with them.
@@RedKiteRender I have a spare set if you need new pedals now ;)
@@RedKiteRender 3rd camera! haha jk
@@HuntressMediai thought of that too ;)
Good news, a Trim Reset button has been added as of the last patch!
forum.dcs.world/topic/295422-trim-reset-to-default-button/page/2/#comment-4923985
Oh boy is that thumbnail a familiar sight
Thanks Fam 🤙🏿💯😎
Are they willing to disconnect the pedals from the trimmer like they did the Huey?
@@Knubinator just set the pedal trim option to the third entry: "No springs or FFB"
Would be better if they could make a double-press trim reset button. Eg. the first press would reset the trim by half, then the second would reset it fully. That could alleviate the jerkiness of trim resetting
Disabling trim on the rudder pedals is a great tip. Thank you! I’ve been flying with no trim and it’s been ok, just a little taxing on long cruises. As long as I can get the cyclic trimmed, I’m good to go :)
I have rudder pedals where I can easily unhook the spring (MFG Crosswinds) which I now use for helicopter flying: so much more intuitive and no tired legs.
@@tomshackell I also have crosswinds and I didn’t think of that either! Another great idea, thank you!
I do this on the Mi24, but leave trim on for the Huey. I’ll have to try pedal trim off on the Apache, I’m comfortable with manual pedals from years of IL2 German planes. Sounds like a good compromise.
I've been at it fighting with the controls the entire way for like six weeks now, and was taking pointers from people with the FFB (mine is spring), and had sooo many issues with the Apache. This is EXACTLY what EVERYONE needs to see FIRST! Most. Important. Video. Available.
You know ... I had so many people argue with me about how devs shouldn't add "Reset trim" as a QoL change, luckily bignew said that it's on their todo list now.
Just non-stop ... "We don't need trim reset, wags made a video about it just change the special options mode for trimming and you won't have issues"
And I'm just like ... "What on earth ..."
I was getting to a point where I wanted to make a video to basically explain to people why it would be good to have but I just suck at describing the issues and don't really have the time or the will, your video is like spot on my man, only thing I could do is thank you.
Thanks man.
People forget that this is a game, and as such needs to accommodate the gameisms. Such as lack of accurate hardware
I honestly don't get the pushback on having a Trim reset control. It's a quality of life / accessibility addition to deal with the lack of force feedback. I'm always in favour of optional extra settings for players. (trigger guard is another I'd like to see a toggle for!) If you don't like it, don't use it, just like the other trimmer mode options.
@@RedKiteRender it baffles me too man.
damn man i am tired to argue about the trim reset button... it's like we are bad at Apache because we want it...
People like to impress some sort of superiority over others and get offended at the idea that someone else wants something 'easier' because it takes away from their personal sense of achievement. It's all rather silly.
Great job, @RedKite. You’ve nailed it and having that old ass joy stick is a super handy way to demonstrate it. Nice!
I have to say the center position killed me many times today on stream. I’m partial to the default one.
Cheers, In an ideal world we'd all have FFB joysticks really sad we lost affordable designs.
"old ass" better than the crap that saitek and logitech came up with 10 years later lol
@@ToreDL87 G940 was so rad.... When the hatswitches on the throttle still worked. honestly FFB is kinda gimmicky from the perspective of using the G940 for the last decade. wanna upgrade soon.
It would definitely be beneficial to have a 'trim reset' or recentre button, even though it isn't present on the actual aircraft. It is possible to fly effectively without it as long as you keep mental track of your trim position, but it would certainly be helpful for the vast majority of users who have spring sticks that don't work the same as the real aircraft... A good argument for usability over realism in this case, hopefully ED will take notice
One important advice for the "Central Position Trimmer mode", use the "force trim release" button, as a "release the trimming force" button and not like a "trim now" switch! The trim action happens on release of the button, not when you depress.
Depress and HOLD the "trim release" whenever you turn, accelerate or decelerate, basically whenever you don't just make the small corrections.
If you learn to remember the rough position of the stick (and or look down to check) and put it there to "pick up" the position with pressing and holding the trim release, you minimize the problems with the limits of the physical sticks movement, plus it does not require multiple quick trim inputs. Btw. this works for the Huey, Ka-50, Mi-24 and Mi-8 as well.
We have a real-life, mechanical "trim release" trigger on our SDZ-54 Perkoz gliders, for pitch trim. A trigger on the stick you reach with your little finger. Releases the pitch trim springs so that they move with the stick. Release the trigger and whatever angle the stick is at is now the trimmed position.
@@RoamingAdhocrat Yep, gliders use a simple mechanical "trim release", but keep in mind especially in gliders the pilot feels the forces acting on the controlsurfaces through mechanical linkage. A helicopter uses a hydraulic system, that feels totally different, if "trim release" is depressed or force trim deactivated completely. I had a chance to feel it once, but not fly it IRL.
You can really move it without applying much force, like holding it with the fingertips. The hydraulics do the job.
Clicked "like" as soon as the first sentence ended. Great opening. :)
Sometimes bugs become 'features' Haha
It's such a shame we lost Force feedback sticks. So many people don't realise just how powerful they are!
Exactly. Great introduction into the video with the Sidewinder Joystick. I was like: What the heck?
The Central Trimmer Mode is the easiest - as long as you remember to recenter your stick to center.
Probably one of the most useful helicopter related tutorials for DCS
10:37 A "damper" is something that controls movement, usually adding resistance to motion based on motion velocity. A "dampener" is something that makes you moist/wet. =)
I think the former achieves the latter haha. Duly noted!
@@RedKiteRender No worries, and a great video Kite, always loved your tutorials. Just one of those things I run into a lot and has become a pet peeve. :D
@@RedKiteRender no kinkshaming here
A shame there are not "cheap" forcefeedback joysticks. Would love to see a Hotas Warthog Force one..... more wait. Thanks!
We really need new consumer FFB sticks!
Why aren't there force feedback joysticks? Didn't the patents expire?
Edit: auto correct
And even more so considering the advantage they get in the field of simracing with so much variety of steering wheels with force feedback.
@@TheMistral I think you could use a FFB wheel for rudder with some tinkering.
@@MongooseTacticool lmao
For those who are struggling with trim, you are not alone. Trim is one of the top three issues that real life Apache trainees struggle with during initial aircraft training. Time and iterations is what it takes, and in DCS having the control display helps to maintain situational awareness about where the trim is currently set.
Very bloody helpful! I wish this was in the quick start, but look! We have smart guys like you, so thanks. Really, thanks!
If ED would add a recenter timeout to the central position trimmer mode that restores control after a short time regardless of whether you recentered your controls or not, it would alleviate the problems with that trim mode.
Exactly, or make it activate only when it detects joystick re-centering.
Essential viewing, incredibly well explained. Another first class video RedKite.
Force trim is the one feature that saved me. I tried playing with the axis curves and that helped a little, but force trim is what made it stable. I have it bound on my thumb switch on my throttle. Best button bind ever!
Well, there is a reason why I preserved my Sidewinder FF stick as long as possible.
Personally, I was very sad when FF died, I had really hoped to see more FF sticks, especially of the HOTAS variation. But they never showed up on the market. Back in the early 2000s, my FF stick usage was the secret of my success at "Warbirds"...
It always was the secret of success in Il-2 as well. It basically carried over to Rise of Flight (extremely good implementation) and BoX. Logitech tried in 2009 with the G940, but that thing had some major flaws and was pulled from the market quickly without the very much needed Rev 2. I still use my old FFB2, it basically hit legal age. It's my second one though. They both have a faulty twist axis and when that happened with the 2nd, I just bought pedals back in 2006. That way I made the step to have them and a backup stick at the same time. Never needed to pull that one out of the box though... this thing is rugged AF. And I know quite a bunch of people who bought a second or even a third one back in the day, just for the case they might need a replacement. This shows how great it was and still is. I mean, who's got a spare TMWH, Virpil or VKB around, just for backup reasons?
I've actually never had a problem with how "intuitive" it is I guess because having some of that disjointed-ness has always been something I've expected with helos? The fact that I have had to exclusively use a twist stick to fly them so far may explain part of that too. What I have had, though, is trouble with the trimmer mode- I don't like return to centre because I find it too slow and obviously with force feedback there is zero delay, so I usually have to be pretty careful when not using return to centre and you'll catch me getting clever with it and realesing the pressure on the stick very fast, which with practice I do find works well. I also absolutely suffer from loosing that range of motion when trimmed, but equally "counter trimming" has just become a part of my workflow when I need to do a hard manoeuvre, I just slam the trim wherever I need and it has at this point become intuitive and natural. I really only found myself doing this with the KA-50 anyway as it lets you really throw it around and can take a little longer than I expect to react to things, unlike the Hind which is big and lumbering, but expectedly so. For me this renders the on screen controls display unnecessary, which is good because I personally find it unbelievably ugly, irrationally so, I can't even tell you why. Maybe I think it's mocking my abilities or pride or something.
RedKite... you are the MAN! Thank you for this demonstration on how a real helicopter works and why the trim in DCS is a PITA in the game.
I really miss the Sidewinder FFB. I never understood why they quit making them. They worked so good in WW2 planes also, because you could actually feel the plane. Both center trimming and instant you still have to center the controls. I found attitude trim works best when flying to a WP.
patent trolls unfortunately.
I still use a 20+ year old MS Sidewinder FFB stick when flying in DCS. It's immersive and fun in VR even if the deadzone and plastic buttons may not be as great. Amazed it still works though. I do hope to see more main streamed force feedback solutions in a soon future if possible (and do hope the patent isn't renewed, it deleted the FFB from the flight sticks).
Btw. I also love the Ah64 IHADSS integration in VR.
@@Roboculture any special settings for it? Mine tends to come back a little bit to the center every time I trim it offset.
@@fermd83 I'm so sorry, answered and watched this while not having my equipment at hand. I repost an answer here as soon I got it and can run DCS in vr again. (It may take up to two weeks.)
Guess I would have the same problem, hope to find a solution.
@@fermd83 Hi, Finally got back home and got time to messed around a little bit in DCS with the trim and my MS Sidewinder.
And of course I got my self some other issues with the trim at first, it did correctly on looking at the joystick helper thingie (ctrl+enter), but the force feedback just kicked the stick in the opposite direction, like it reset the center as if it was mirrored. (It may just be me how's not used to how this should work).
At a few times I got it to work like I wanted and I don't recall my stick to offset, if so not by very much. But have a theory that it has to do with the deadzone for our sticks, that does that, it stop sensing where the joystick are as soon the stick center itself inside its own deadzone. Fortunate for us, ED have now implemented a trim reset button.
Sorry for taking so long with my answer.
In my experience with the huey, trim reset was something I only used when my stick was already close to centered (often when I am in the middle of a hover transition). Otherwise, the aircraft goes absolutely crazy because of the sudden change in control inputs. I also don't enable rudder trim because I have never encountered a situation where I can have both stick and rudder centered at the same time. Because of this, trim reset is never a safe option if I have rudder trim enabled. I can only use one or the other.
Trim in a Huey is totally different than an Apache.
I really appreciate you making this video. Looks very time consuming but benefits all of us. I've been trying to disable the trim for the rudder since I'm so used to the KA-50.
I still remember when even the Ka-50 didn't have that option and we needed to use an AHK script to get there...
Excellent analysis. I currently fly with the Warthog without main spring to fly without trim at all. So sad, we don't have any new Force Feedback Stick Systems on the Hotas-market right now. Glad to see your Sidewinder FFB stick still works. These were great times!
It's hanging in there, i do need to take it apart and replace the USB wire sometime soon though!
Thank you for showing me a way for disabling rudder trim! Already hoped for a way to do it.
I found what best works for me is what you suggested - instant for stick and not trim for pedals. Especially no trim for pedals is what finally made me be able to fly helos. Took me so long and so many crashed to find that out .
Learned so much about trim in DCS from this. Thank you RK. I’ve had the privilege to fly a UH-60 sim with the force trim to see what it’s actually like, and it breaks my heart to think FFB controls don’t exist on the market today.
RedKite you produce the best tutorials on how things function in DCS. Well done! No one else comes close in getting into the guts and problems in these modules.
This video was really well made and you explained the trim very clearly. The trim in DCS helos has always felt weird to me, and now I know why, thanks a lot!
Thank you! Disabling trim on the pedals is huge! It was really the only major problem I was having given how sensitive the Apache is to input at low speed. I’ve flown all of the DCS helicopters and I have to say that I have a newfound appreciation for just how stable and easy to fly the Shark is after the Apache. I had just assumed the Apache would be superior in every way but, especially without the hold modes, the shark is a far better help for hovering and stability
Coaxial rotors have their advantages!
Great video thank you.
Trim reset has been added now to the Apache by DCS - so that is good
Great video. Thanks much ! I watched the Wags vid for Apache control bindings and he mentioned a Trim Release. I recall it's called Force Trim "UP" in the pilot controls menu. I haven't tested anything & just now getting my bindings squared away.
I am SO happy you took up Apache tutorials. Best DCS tutorial RUclipsr and a helluva soothing voice 😊
Thanks for the trick about disabling the pedal trim. Makes it feel like the ka-50.
You've really captured the difference between real-world and the DCSisms nicely. Perfectly explained.
I was really impressed how ingenious the magnetic brake system is when doing some research for this video! Thanks again Barundus.
Hello and thank you for this video! Yesterday I switched trim mode from instant trim to central position and ... Oh man, now I'm able to gracefully transition and hover while trimming the bird and without looking like I'm having a stroke. I think this should be the default trim setting
I have all other helicopters, but only struggled with trim with the Apache. The other ones have one more option "default", which is missing in the Apache. And you can disable the Rudder trimmer in the Special settings. Thanks for the video. Really good.
This is EXACTLY what happened to me in my first flight last night! Thank you so much for making this so clear and concise!
Thank you, finally understand those 3 options for the heli trim!
Well done sir, gonna practice more. This is my first time with helos and I was doing large trims and thinking it worked like fixed wing in my head. The light snapped on with this vid.
Nice to see I'm not the only Sidewinder FFB2
out there, sad that there are so few force feedback options and that they don't make this anymore. Removing rudder trim is going to make the big difference for me. Thanks for this.
As always you're the most straight to the point guy, I watched all of the existing trim videos and yours displays the trim limitations perfectly, if I could subscribe again I would. I took tinkering on my side to figure all of this out on my own, but for others this is THE video to watch. Thanks!!!
Wow, I haven't yet tried flying the Apache and I decided I should research how trim works in DCS helos and I saw this video had been posted less than an hour before. Amazingly timely and wonderful video, I feel like I'll be much more comfortable flying now.
Thank you for doing this, RedKite! I'm always trying to explain this to fellow users and your illustration and clear explanation will really help.
Also, there's no reason DCS's "center offset" trim system should limit the control extents! That's shocking to learn! Instead it should scale so that the real-world controller extents always reach the virtual stick extents. I always assumed that was how it worked, but as I have a Logitech FFB stick, I never noticed it. No wonder I crash when I forget to turn FFB on before flying choppers! I only really noticed the issues when I got the Hind and wanted to apply trim to the pedals as is realistic for that type. (But not for any of the choppers we have that preceded it.) That's insane!
They should add directional trim to choppers (which the Hind has already) as another work-around for non-FFB stick people. Not realistic, but then neither is the Trim Release that all the DCS choppers have (except the Apache though I believe they've promised it's coming).
Oh and here's another stupid thing. There's no need for the FFB FRIENDLY option as DCS disables the "return to center" BS when FFB is enabled automatically. So you can keep the special menu on "Central Position" mode and not worry about it messing you up when you use your FFB stick. If you forget to turn FFB on, you'll then be in the mode you probably prefer. (I wish I could keep FFB on all the time but it will just not play nicely with many of the DCS aircraft and even the ones it does work okay in have bad trim offsets that I wish we had an option to bias. I do use FFB on all the DCS choppers, but sometimes I don't due to all the time it takes to exit the mission/server and restart the sim to change the setting. Then the insanity begins! LOL!)
It's no wonder nobody figures this out. Thanks again! ED have needed this tutorial since their first choppers came out!
I found enabling the trimmer for the pedals to be very distracting. Part of the issue is inherent to the Apache; there is no independent trim release for the pedals like there are on bette... I mean, other helicopters (UH-60, for instance). I found the best thing is to use the third trimmer option for the pedals (Joystick without springs and FFB) and just flight the return force (Or disconnect the spring from my pedals). For the stick, I prefer the first option. I hate the loss of control. For the first trimmer option, I think a setting that changes the rate at which trim position moves from the old to new center point. That could help reduce the transient when trimming.
BTW, this is the best video on helicopter trim in DCS that I've seen. Very well done. I agree with just about all your points.
Reddit! Thank you for explaining the trim settings. I’ve always flown helos without rudder trim as I always forgot to move my rudder pedals. The nugget at the end of your vid about the rudder setting now allows me to do the same with the Apache. Eureka moment for me!
WELL DONE! I could never fully explain each trim mode but now I can just link this video and send people on their way. Thank you! and keep the quality coming.
The CPG twitching in fear during the intro made me chuckle!
Thanks for this video, really helpful and very clear explanations. I also have a Sidewinder 2 FFB stick, didn't realize that it you can hold the trimmer button, move the stick, and it stays where you release the trim button! Amazing and thanks for that "reveal"! I just wish the FFB 2 had more buttons and hats on it...maybe I'll dig it out and try it with the Huey (but the Apache...so shiny and new!) Thanks again for the work in this video
Excellent overview. I’m an ex helicopter pilot and I’m kicking myself for getting rid of my my force feedback joystick all those years ago!
I know it's my opinion but the central position trimmer mode seems to be the best option overall provided you're thinking ahead and making the trim corrections in advance of velocity/attitude changes (The trim is to combat hand fatigue - once the trip leg has been made and it's time to start changing speed, you are removing the trim and placing the burden back on your hand)
It's an increase in the mental workload (same as instant) but this increase in workload normally comes at a time before interactions have dire consequences for errors.
I've killed a LOT of Apaches in the last few days before I gave up and started enabling the Controls/Trim position overlay (RCtrl+Enter)
I hated having it up because of how it affected my immersion, but considering I'm working with a spring centering stick, It's really the only way to give you reference in absence of a FFB stick.
My flights have since become a lot smoother, and while I may still occasionaly bend a rotor, I'm no longer totalling airframes.
Great news that they will be adding a reset!
Thanks Redkite! There is a Seawise Giant headed to Batumi loaded with replacement rotors for the ones I've broken over the last week 😂
I hope there will be some kind of anti-torque rotor stabilization function added (so it will hold constant heading when the rudder axis is centered no matter if the helo is in a hover or at speed). I've read somewhere that this feature is actually on a real Apache, but I might be wrong on that assumption.
I wish too it would be a feature or a setting that you can switch on/off in the special tap, I have gotten use to the ka 50 counter rotating rotor when I jumped in the apache the rudder shat in my pants
The MFG rudder pedals with thee hydrolic mod make the rudder trim problems go away and this is an absolute joy to fly
Great video as always! I've definitely trimmed myself into a spin before and didn't realize how I did it!
That last statement on FFB sticks - well... There actually are FFB bases that you can buy. Brunner makes them - but they are fairly costly at around ~1500 buckaroos. You can also buy an FFB base from walmis (Vpforce Rhino) and it's "only" over 800 euros, so half the price - but also with better internals. A good deal if you ask me, but I understand it very well that not many people are willing to pay that kind of cash. (It is freaking great, though, for helicopters and non-FBW airplanes especially, but you can also use some FFB effects in FBW planes, which is pretty great as well)
This is the best video dealing with DCS Apache trim!
I definitely am using a mix and finding it the most efficient. Being Central Trim for Cyclic, and Pedals without Sprint cheat for my Pedals. I definitely hope a trim reset is added, I think you really help in justifying why in the sim world it is required due to equipment limitations.
This is such an important video! I understood the concept a long time (which doesn't mean I still sometimes crash because of it) but it's so hard to explain if someone you fly with struggles (The KA-50 is a classic because a kind of confusing Autopilot system comes in). Now you can just refer to this video! Excellent
haha yeah.. the times i thought the shark was trying to kill me... it took a community mod to seperate pedals from trim before i finally started understanding how to use the ap banks instead of fighting it. now i just fly with ffb.
Since my current flight stick is a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro---spring action and no FFB---I'm rather inspired by FFB when I discovered herewith that there's more to the FFB than an effects enhancer that simply rumbles on impact with some virtual entity :)
Around 5:20 you begin to demonstrate respective trim choices under "Special" settings....... in the "Instant" mode you explained what I recall was particularly difficult to grasp when I'd bought the A-10C Warthog standalone in 2012 or so....... "cumulative" effects to trim were tough to manage; I actually wondered why such an effect would be of any value and if that was the actual trim system in the real-world A-10?!?!
Around 6:20 you cover the cumulative effects to rudder trim. Admittedly an "empty vessel" of advanced knowledge at this point, I'm often compelled to attempt to trim out the spinning on takeoff and/or the constant left-rudder hold until underway in forward flight. I'm a bit confused about rudder, though...... I can only presume that up to a certain speed, only tail rotor blade pitch works the yaw, then at a certain speed rudder can take effect........ (?).
Yet another work of excellence here, RedKite. Thanks!!
As you speed up, the aerodynamic effects will stabilise the aircraft (same way a plane does) So you need less anti-torque (yaw) input to fly straight. You also generate extra lift, as a result of the two combined you burn less fuel in flight than a hover. The anti-torque becomes less effective at speed, because the airframe wants to weathervane back into the direction of travel, so rolling and pitch is necessary to change directions at that point.
That explains so much. Thanks Redkite!
Personally I find utility with a hybrid setup, instant stick trim and center pedals it just feels alot better imo.
Fantastic video mate, thanks for taking the time to explain the different options to us.
Phenomenal video, and a little tip for the audio maybe cut the bass frequencies a little bit? It may also be just because you’re too close to your microphone but it makes the words you say a little hard to hear because it’s kinda muddy
Usually less of an issue, just the setup wasn't quite ideal with the camera and tripod. Thanks for the feedback!
Great video, wish I had it 15 years ago when all the people were having the same questions after black shark was released .
You'd swear the Ka-50 wants to kill you starting off without any understanding of the interactions between trim and autopilot haha.
When it comes to these modules there needs to come to a point where some "realism" is sacrificed for in game functionality. While a trim release may not be realistic to an Apache, it makes up for the fact that a person playing a sim at a desk doesn't have the same feedback as a pilot in an actual Apache. Not to mention someone flying a real Apache isn't staring at a controls indicator, to center things in order to release trim. Something as simple as a guarded switch in a real aircraft is as easy as flipping a guard and pushing a button in one basic movement. Some people will say it's not realistic to just flip the same switch in game, so now we get a separate command to lift the guard. Now I have to bind something to simulate releasing a guard just to flip a switch on my hotas. This in itself isn't realistic being that the guard in the real aircraft has no electrical connection to the aircraft, it's simply a spring loaded guard. Now lets say I build a cockpit, with an actual guarded switch. I still have to come up with some creative way to have the sim recognize when the guard is up or down in order to use it. As modules get more advanced, with more features added, they're becoming more complicated than the aircraft they're designed to emulate.
Exactly. I don't understand why this is seen as a problem. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't use the weapons from the back seat and it was because of the trigger guard. Seriously? There is literally no point to have that be necessary. At least they are implementing a trim reset now. I saw someone ask for that and Wags literally just responded, "AH-64 doesn't have that." Ok dude, no one cares, this isn't the real aircraft and I'm sitting at a desk trying to fly it.
I have the VKB MCG Pro as joystick grip. I selected it over Virpil because it has better capabilities like the brake lever is an axis, and the flip trigger is as well an axis. Because these are axis and there is sensor to detect when the flip trigger is up or down, you can simulate multiple different real world grips.
Example, in KA-50 you have the flip up trigger so that when it is UP, the gun is selected and the dual-stage trigger (red) is trigger for cannon. When the trigger is DOWN, the gun mode is disabled and you have your inner/outer stations selected and you launch the weapon by pulling the flip-trigger fully.
Now do that same with the Apache now. But reverse.
Flip trigger UP = Armed. Flip trigger down = Safety.
The difference is that you say, in real trigger that safety is spring loaded, so it will cover the trigger again, where in MCG Pro you don't have spring to return it down. But you will get that exact same functionality that to fire weapon, you need to place finger under the safety cover and shoot.
To avoid this "cheating", we can use exactly that programmed "safety up" feature, so because there is space to slide finger under Flip Trigger, you can't use trigger as you have not removed safety.
That is the nice feature to just understand that you have a cover you need to deal with, and just by grabbing or pumping grip when flip-trigger is down will not fire the weapon so you must realize to remove safety.
This flip-up trigger is amazing feeling in KA-50. And so as well in Apache.
Binding to joystick only the real functions that real grips has, and same thing with collective (or throttle if flying fixed wing) that you really don't need so many buttons and features in any of them, you have less functions to make, and you enjoy with the limited real world grips functions as you are required to move hands around in virtual cockpit to operate aircraft instead just pressing buttons in throttle or joystick that is not suppose to have such functions.
In my MCG Pro I have seven buttons in it.
1) UP
2) Virtual button for modifier (UP)
3) Down
4) Virtual button for modifier (Down)
5) First detent 5-50% pull.
6) Second detent when physical spring loaded button is pressed.
7) Full pull (90-100% scale)
One trigger, six functions.
Under there is that dual-stage red trigger, and I can change its functionality with that 2nd virtual button modifier, so I can have example PTT in the first detent, and then have Autopilot Override with second detent. If I go quickly to second, first detent is ignored and I can fly in Su-27 without disabling level flight as should. If I just pull first I get PTT, and then same time VoiceAttack reacts and listen microphone and I can speak the radio commands.
And when I want to use missiles in BVR mode, I flip trigger down, now I can launch missiles with gentle pull to first phase, or I can quickly pull to select a gun, and then gentle pull will fire the gun. To deselect gun I either flip trigger up or I quickly pull fully and release and I am back to BVR mode (problem if need to go back to A-G mode).
The axis are powerful features with virtual buttons. I have three buttons in the brake grip. It is full axis, but then there is one virtual button for 0-5%, one for 30-50% IIRC and then one at the end at about 95-100% And this way example when I am up in the air, I can command something with full pull when axis reacts only for wheels brake but as they are not extended you don't have conflict etc.
I can make that grip as extra button for paddle switch in hornet just by touching that grip slightly. Or I can have it as modifier for T-rudders work as brake pedals for taxiing.
But the key is that you take the programmability, and then implement real functions to closest possible right places.
Example, the left mini-axis stick is in A-10 and F-16 the TDM 4-way hat. The center 5-way hat is the DMS hat. It doesn't matter to me that they are different feeling and shape, as both are programmed 4-way hats in secondary virtual hat mode to where I can switch when switching modules in DCS.
I find the current trimmer model easy to use. When you trim on Central Position trimmer mode you center both controls as you trim, effectively releasing them momentarily then returning to control. It couldn't be any simpler. You just have to automatically do this as you trim.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this.
Just note, the values of trim are not multiplied, but added. It is trimmed position+axis commands. By saying "multiplied" it sounds like trimmed position * axis command Refer to 6:35
finally someone taking up on the issue. DCS trim has been not working for the last 10 years. don't understand why these folks don't get it.
After several crashes in the Hind where I realized it was because I was locked out of controls and hadn't returned to center, I was using the default/instant type. For some reason I greatly dislike this one in the Apache. I've now switched back to all central trimmer and I'm pretty happy with it. After a little practice building muscle memory, it's no different than remembering to open the trigger guard or something. Just hit the trim and relax your grip for a moment. That said, they NEED to shoehorn in a trim reset. The Apache doesn't have one, but it also doesn't have a spring centered cyclic either, so arguing it's not realistic would be a moot point.
What a great video, RedKite! Thanks! 🙂
I was scratching my head for hours trying to figure out WTH was going on with my Apache Trim! Thanks for explaining what was going on! Man I miss my M$ force feedback stick now!!!! :((
Thanks Redkite, I can't even count how many times I have crashed or rollled 360, or 720 degrees before crashing. Please let them bring us a Trim Reset. I am all for simulation, but here, maybe a cheat key is needed
Damn I wish I kept my FF stick like the one you have. I use to love that thing when it was cutting edge. Now I have to make do with this awesome Warthog Throttle and stick, although I think I prefer the F/A-18C grip for the apache, just sort of feels right, even though my original A-10C stick is a closer representation of the real thing
Great Work Red
FFB is such a great lost tech. It was used a quite bit for gimmicks and random vibration / motions, but in sims, it was a game changer when implemented properly (like il-2 where the stick resistance changes with airspeed for example!) What I'd give to see it return, esp with a Warthog/Virpil compatible connector!
@@RedKiteRender I could not agree with you more. There was something very organic about it in the early days of IL2, really gave you a sense of trying to move control surfaces
Back in the day when people suggested you to get a Saitek X45 or 52, but hide the stick somewhere behind the monitor and use an FFB2 instead. And Simped Vario Pro pedals :)
I think it's silly to say that a trim reset button isn't realistic. The button doesn't represent a button in the aircraft. It represents the pilot moving their controls back to the center and setting the trim there. It's no less realistic than pressing a button to look left.
Ive mastered the trim technique while using the indicator now, but since we don’t all have a force feedback, we absolutely need a trim reset, so we can at least fly without the indicator
Today's patch notes mentions a reset trim for the Apache! Time to run an update and test it out. 👍
Also, well explained video. Thank you Redkite.
The trim reset I set as pres down on the hat. So set the trim to fly to a point. Then unset the trim to hover hold etc.. when you get there.
I've been debating putting rudder in instant trim, and keeping the stick on center, since it's usually not too much of a pain. The biggest issue for me is with my rudders, I may not perfectly center it. But your idea to go with Option 3 and just technically not have trim might be a good idea too.
i believe the patents owned by microsoft and immersion on FFB have all expried now, so was sincerely hoping some of these manufacturers would put one into production with the ever-rising popularity of DCS and MSFS2020. I really hope they do, i would be the first in the queue to grab one!
Still an expensive proposition to develop an affordable ffb stick. I hope someone takes it up, but I'm not holding my breath.
That pedals trick is going to save me so much frustration =) couldn't stand that they trimmed with the stick
I quite like the return to center mode, just had to develop a habit of "hit trim button -> let go of stick, lift feet from pedals" to make the most of it. =)
After a few flights with that setting it will become second nature
Thank you for the great tutorial, as usual! And always good to see a fellow trueborn Clan warrior. ;)
Haha I'm loving all the people who've spotted them, just wish i had the time to paint.. been waiting on my desk a little too long now!
I was almost buying that winwing hotas.. Thanks for review.
Really hoping for a reset trim feature in the near future. It may not be 100% realistic, but we're having to contend with an unrealistic problem as it is since, as you mentioned, the vast majority of joysticks can't provide a physical sense to the joystick's position. Real Apache pilots don't have to deal with this: if they did, they'd probably be clamoring for a reset trim function as well, if it hadn't been already added to the real aircraft. :P
Great points really well put!!
Brilliant break down!
No wonder why I crashed immediately after trimming and disconnecting trim. Thanks!
Thank you so much for this video!
Make sure you select in the "special tab" at the main menu of the ah-64d
Central trimmer mod for all options you can all choppers tbh
I miss my old MS Force Feedback stick. I picked it up on Ebay for £5 around 2004. Only downside was it had the pre-USB connector, which plugged directly into the graphics card. When those eventually became redundant I think i binned it. Didn't think at the time I should have just bought a USB converter cable. Damn! :((
Anyway thanks for this tutorial. Being new to helis on DCS, helicopter trim was confusing the hell out of me. Now it all makes sense....well, mostly makes sense.
Mixed lance with a scouting element up on that shelf. Nice.
There is a solution for a very well made - and a bit expensive - force feedback base. Brunner manufacture very high quality products that work great with our sims, including DCS World as well.
Nevertheless, since the patent used by Microsoft and Logitech for their joysticks back in the day is now available again, that would be great too see them come back to this market with more affordable solutions that the one offered by Brunner.
Excellent opening scene.
Wow thank you been fighting this since I bought the appachee two days ago
Excellent Tutorial, thank you.
Thanks for making this video, I’ve been trying to explain this to so many people 😉
Thank you soooooooo much for this video RedKite! I finally was able to understand and use the trim properly... and stopped crashing! xD You're a legend!
Glad to be of service! Anything to reduce Apache insurance premiums haha!