I decided to use Leedh on my Lumin U2 streamer and connected my May KTE DAC directly to my amp eliminating the pre amp. The difference is transformational for me. I have a Michi P5 Series 2 which is quite good, but eliminating it is even better in my case. I was really skeptical at first, but I am fully convinced that the digital volume control in this case is far superior to a pre amp.
Hi, it’s me again ☕️ Yup , just listened to Steely Dan’s Goucho on Amazon Music UHD in 24/96 stream 😎 Now, I don’t have anything like your rig ..but I’ve been introducing my friends to the streaming universe..as you can find and enjoy ALMOST everything that you might like and take a step into a larger musical universe. Now, I run a headphone stack. Wiim Pro Streamer primarily with Amazon HD/UHD Music. Feeding a Topping DAC with the ES906 chip set ..a scan IFI power supply..very clean 🧼 Going to a Drop 789 THX Headphone amp..that wiggles the air in my Sen’s 650’s headphones or a stable of IEM’s. I’d love to have your level of gear …but reality vs my love of great music are not in harmony. A great video and as always I learn something new . Take care ☕️👍🔥🍕🥓
Tom, great review as always! I look forward to your reviews and really enjoy how you break them down. I hadn't thought about this piece but I will be downsizing in the not too distant future and something like this may serve me well, even though it would pain me to switch over from my vinyl and CDs. But it's food for thought. BTW, I subscribed to TAS magazine because of your reviews and I'm looking forward to getting it!
A great product it provides an elegant solution for streaming only aficionado's, it minimises boxes, cables and rack space an provides a great volume control what not to like
some Lumin FYIs, they are in fact designed to be used connected direct to power amp (even better with balanced amp), if you have multiple sources an integrated amp with defeatable preamp inputs works in the same manner, and if you don't like the native app, Tidal Direct is an option on some models .....and yes the value proposition on all models is extremely high
The best way to do digital volume control, is the way Roon does it - by converting the stream into 64bit Float bit depth first and then performing a leveling on that signal. That’s similar to how RAW or Open EXR float images work where you can change the gamma without destroying the dynamic range information of the image. Any digital volume control that doesn’t first convert the file to Float is essentially crushing the dynamic range, similar to the way compression works. And the write up on this new form of digital volume control doesn’t explain it well enough to know for sure if it is crushing the signal or not. We really need to see a white paper or something similar on the technology to better understand it.
The LEEDH volume control white paper is available to read online. Next time maybe try a quick web search before writing a book in the comments section?
Thank you for being honest. I think for $5000 they need to throw something more on the table than an average Dac, in a nice box. I know I am not looking for a preamplifier. I am more interested in the sound in anything else. For 5K it should sound awesome. It should have a great app to go with it. Mediocre sound is not what people want. When a company figures this out they will make a killing. Those who do not will get left behind.
If a target would be to have a “single box” solution with most versatile functionality, then why not buying a Mytek Brooklyn Bridge? You will get: streamer (all relevant streaming services) + DAC + Preamp + phono Preamp + Roon. All for 1000 bucks less with Semi-Pro built quality.
Nice review, I gave up on vinyl 10 years ago.. I used a modded Oppo cd player to pay CDs , and stream Tidal… The magic is in the preamp and mine is tubes …I can’t do this…
I tried the U2 Mini with SBooster into Denafrips Venus awhile back, and while really good, I thought it sounded too digital and edgy. Lumin app is OK, definitely not Roon level.
@@morespinach9832 Auralic app is gorgeous. But my Aries G1 with Hoer Wege power supply still doesn’t sound as good as my U2 mini with Plixir power supply.
I have an ARC D240MkII poweramp into some large PMC MB2SE spkrs and am looking for a preamp solution. I have an old but upgraded Pioneer N70ae streamer DAC but it doesn’t have any volume control function. I am thinking about the D2 as a possible replacement for this unit that can serve as a preamp.
Bad timing for some of your comments lol. Just to let you know Tidal have just introduced their highres MAX quality some of it to be delivered in lossless flac.
That’s great news IMHO. It would be nice to have just one service if you don’t want to use Roon. We’ll see if Tidal can cover the same recordings as Qobuz, but you would think this is possible.
One problem (temporary?) with Tidal Max may be that the UI doesn’t seem to clearly distinguish high-res from MQA. I’m actually upbeat about MQA sound, but it would be better if you could distinguish, say, 24/96 FLAC and 16/44 MQA recordings. I will test it when I return from a road trip.
@@thomasmartin2219 The LUMIN App is one of the only ways to distinguish between MAX (Flac) and MQA. You see both versions side-by-side and can choose which to play.
Wifi should be an option, especially at this price point. Let the end user decide if they want to use ethernet or wifi. Seems like every time I read a pro review for a streamer the reviewer says they couldn't tell a difference.
"Optional" only is fine. Someone like me (obstinate & caustic) thinks one cannot be taken seriously if wireless is in the signal chain & would prevent me from even considering the product. Reggae, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Sorry, no matter what names you invent, you can not violate the laws of physics! If a power amp has a given input voltage for maximum output, say 2V is common, any more than that just clips/ distorts, OK say some headroom needed and use 3V. So say the analog source needs to provide at most a 3V peak signal. But the device output stage is usually well above that, often 6V -10V So it needs to be cut in half at least. An analog control just takes the full voltage and gives it out at what ever ratio you want! Full resolution at each point on the slope. But if you use digital to control the output level, the ONLY way to have 3V out of a 6V stage is to never use any sample levels over the most significant bit. IWO cut the S/N and resolution in half. And that is to play at FULL VOLUME! You want half volume? Toss another bit! low listen levels from a device with a 10V analog stage? How many bits do you think you have left? What Leedh Processing does is manipulate the sample individual sample data to reuce resolution in front. From their site: "For instance, consider a signal represented in 24bits words (MSB aligned). If volume control coefficients were limited to 8 bits and the input signal had 16bits resolution, no truncation would occur and no information would be lost." "If volume control coefficients were limited to 8 bits " Yes by prefiltering removing resolution in front, the decoversion is lossless because the information was not there anymore in the first place. But what is being suggested is this is less distortion than just bit dropping w/ dither as other use. But it does not touch even a simple passive analog volume control for pure signal transmission.
My understanding is that the LEEDH approach sets the system word length = music data word length + volume control coefficient word length. When the music data word is multiplied by the VC coefficient and then truncation is applied, only the LSBs of the result are truncated, leaving the original music data word length (resolution) at a lower level. This works up to about 30 db of attenuation from full DAC output with the system I saw analyzed. Presumably (!), DAC makers using the LEEDH approach set their output levels to try to make this 30 db as useful as possible. In typical arrangements it would seem to be enough range to work. Measurements by third parties shown that the LEEDH output mirrors the input at a lower level when in that -0 to -30db range. The central idea of LEEDH is pretty simple in that it makes the VC coefficient a small enough word length that required music word lengths can be practically accommodated. The drawback is that volume adjustments of arbitrary amounts cannot be achieved (e.g. -1 db target reduction = - 1.16 db with LEEDH). I didn't notice this as an issue because real listeners generally don't think in terms of very exact volume changes. Maybe I misunderstand the limitations, because certainly Lumin and Acoustical Beauty are mostly explaining why this is useful.
@@thomasmartin2219 "leaving the original music data word length (resolution) at a lower level" Exactly what I was saying. No matter how you word it, the only way you can have a digital volume control is to reduce bit depth. If a DAC has a given voltage out for a sample representing max voltage (all ones), the only way to play at half that volume is never trigger the most significant bit. Drop a bit. How many systems play at good listening levels with the volume control at half way? (best position is a different discussion) Fairly common I would guess. So if you want moderate listening level, quarter volume setting? Drop another bit? LEEDH seems to accept this and just say that well this is less lossy. That if you assume you are going to have fewer bits to deal with, you can maximize for it. But never resolve it. When gone they are gone. Where an analog volume control takes the entire range of voltage excursion and just adjusts the maximum voltage level as needed. And interesting test would be a good passive volume control vs direct connection. Resistance does effect the bandwidth of the Input's RC network. So varying even a passive control could affect sound. But I would expect, less.
@@thomasmartin2219 "The drawback is that volume adjustments of arbitrary amounts cannot be achieved (e.g. -1 db target reduction = - 1.16 db with LEEDH). I didn't notice this as an issue because real listeners generally don't think in terms of very exact volume changes. Maybe I misunderstand the limitations, because certainly Lumin and Acoustical Beauty are mostly explaining why this is useful." Yes I saw that. It would make sense that certain numbers calculate more accurately. Explaining the square root of 4 is much easier than 5. There are likely multiples that render more efficiently. But the same would be said for the better analog approach of stepped attenuators rather than a variable resistor. Better sonic results but discrete not not infinitely variable. When I was in computer graphics the computer workspace was doubled in bit depth for combining two streams. Two 8 bit streams required 16 bit processing and the output was then reduced back to 8 bits. And it was almost impossible to capture a smooth linear transition because some bit step would always be more noticeable than another.
Gaucho was essentially a high water mark for analog, just prior to digital. Fully mature 2" Studer A800 magnetic tape, fed by Rupert Neve's finest 8068 console. Gaucho was excess at its finest. Fagan and Becker obsessed about the smallest details ... the finest session musicians ... laying down the same part for the same song. Plus, the first use of digital sampling in the drum tracks. Of course, ... a year or two later, Fagan went full digital on the Nightfly. The height of analog, to the beginning of digital ... both superb reference level examples of the art. Some bitch about digital ... but Fagan's Nightfly is 𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙮 𝙮𝙚𝙖𝙧𝙨 𝙤𝙡𝙙 ... its fine even by today's standards.
Yes, indeed. More excess at its finest: 55 takes for the outro of Babylon Sisters. $550,000 (2023 dollars) for a custom drum machine. And the 24-track (or possibly 2 Studers for 48 track) analog master tape seems to be part of why the hi-res digital is so good. The right tools in the right hands…
@@thomasmartin2219 Indeed, dual 24 track Studers. The "drum machine", was analog recorded drum hits, ... I believe Rick Marotta, then sequenced/manipulated for perfect timing. Besides ... they only had Steve Gadd, Rick Marotta, Bernard Purdie and Jeff Porcaro!!!
That is some strange gatekeeping, unless it takes a lot of effort to listen to music it's not audiophile? So only pure audiophile is R2R then? Vinyl and cd's are too easy, don't even have to rewind!!
Tom, I must say that I absolutely love your reviews. Honest, straightforward, and to the point. Great work.
I decided to use Leedh on my Lumin U2 streamer and connected my May KTE DAC directly to my amp eliminating the pre amp. The difference is transformational for me. I have a Michi P5 Series 2 which is quite good, but eliminating it is even better in my case. I was really skeptical at first, but I am fully convinced that the digital volume control in this case is far superior to a pre amp.
Hi, it’s me again ☕️
Yup , just listened to Steely Dan’s Goucho on Amazon Music UHD in 24/96 stream 😎
Now, I don’t have anything like your rig ..but I’ve been introducing my friends to the streaming universe..as you can find and enjoy ALMOST everything that you might like and take a step into a larger musical universe.
Now, I run a headphone stack.
Wiim Pro Streamer primarily with Amazon HD/UHD Music.
Feeding a Topping DAC with the ES906 chip set ..a scan IFI power supply..very clean 🧼
Going to a Drop 789 THX Headphone amp..that wiggles the air in my Sen’s 650’s headphones or a stable of IEM’s.
I’d love to have your level of gear …but reality vs my love of great music are not in harmony.
A great video and as always I learn something new .
Take care ☕️👍🔥🍕🥓
Tom, great review as always! I look forward to your reviews and really enjoy how you break them down. I hadn't thought about this piece but I will be downsizing in the not too distant future and something like this may serve me well, even though it would pain me to switch over from my vinyl and CDs. But it's food for thought. BTW, I subscribed to TAS magazine because of your reviews and I'm looking forward to getting it!
1.5x speed....just saying.
Lumin is among the top three in hi end streamers/transport with the best chassis in the world.
A great product it provides an elegant solution for streaming only aficionado's, it minimises boxes, cables and rack space an provides a great volume control what not to like
It's certainly not for anyone who calls this thing a hobby.
Reggae, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
some Lumin FYIs, they are in fact designed to be used connected direct to power amp (even better with balanced amp), if you have multiple sources an integrated amp with defeatable preamp inputs works in the same manner, and if you don't like the native app, Tidal Direct is an option on some models .....and yes the value proposition on all models is extremely high
Tom gives us another fantastic review!
Greetings from Toronto ☕️☕️
Goo lord ..streamer , DAC and a preamp…you’ve got my attention 🤔
As long as you can live with streaming as your only input… this might be the future for a lot of people.
@@thomasmartin2219 I can't. Turntable, RTR, cassette deck...
The best way to do digital volume control, is the way Roon does it - by converting the stream into 64bit Float bit depth first and then performing a leveling on that signal. That’s similar to how RAW or Open EXR float images work where you can change the gamma without destroying the dynamic range information of the image. Any digital volume control that doesn’t first convert the file to Float is essentially crushing the dynamic range, similar to the way compression works. And the write up on this new form of digital volume control doesn’t explain it well enough to know for sure if it is crushing the signal or not. We really need to see a white paper or something similar on the technology to better understand it.
The LEEDH volume control white paper is available to read online. Next time maybe try a quick web search before writing a book in the comments section?
Thank you for being honest. I think for $5000 they need to throw something more on the table than an average Dac, in a nice box. I know I am not looking for a preamplifier. I am more interested in the sound in anything else. For 5K it should sound awesome. It should have a great app to go with it. Mediocre sound is not what people want. When a company figures this out they will make a killing. Those who do not will get left behind.
If a target would be to have a “single box” solution with most versatile functionality, then why not buying a Mytek Brooklyn Bridge? You will get: streamer (all relevant streaming services) + DAC + Preamp + phono Preamp + Roon. All for 1000 bucks less with Semi-Pro built quality.
Nice review, I gave up on vinyl 10 years ago.. I used a modded Oppo cd player to pay CDs , and stream Tidal… The magic is in the preamp and mine is tubes …I can’t do this…
I tried the U2 Mini with SBooster into Denafrips Venus awhile back, and while really good, I thought it sounded too digital and edgy. Lumin app is OK, definitely not Roon level.
Move up to Auralic Aries g1.1 running into Venus. Different league.
@@morespinach9832 Auralic app is gorgeous. But my Aries G1 with Hoer Wege power supply still doesn’t sound as good as my U2 mini with Plixir power supply.
I have an ARC D240MkII poweramp into some large PMC MB2SE spkrs and am looking for a preamp solution. I have an old but upgraded Pioneer N70ae streamer DAC but it doesn’t have any volume control function. I am thinking about the D2 as a possible replacement for this unit that can serve as a preamp.
how is the sound quality from the DAC...what chipset is uded?...i don't see any digital inputs to call this a dac?
I don't understand why companies put a preamp in their streaming devices. Am I the only guy running an integrated amp?
Now the real question is does it sound as good as a dedicated preamp? Ive always found when you skip a good preamp it never sounds as good.
See my Audio Research Ref 6 SE review.
Sounds like the Shortest Signal Path wins most of the time! All things being Subjective to the Individual is where the Fun is!
Have you reviewed the hifi rose yet?
We reviewed the RS150B. Is that the model you are thinking of?
@@thomasmartin2219 yes, looking for your video now, in short how do the two compare to each other?
@@garemz Hi Fi Rose review is on the absolute sound site
I looked into this, but not having Roon is a deal breaker for me. I ended up with a Bricasti M3 fed by an innuos streamer.
The T3 is roon ready!
I did fall asleep after 7 minutes 😂 the amount of information in this review can be covered in 6 minutes 😉 come on, you can do better!
Bad timing for some of your comments lol. Just to let you know Tidal have just introduced their highres MAX quality some of it to be delivered in lossless flac.
That’s great news IMHO. It would be nice to have just one service if you don’t want to use Roon. We’ll see if Tidal can cover the same recordings as Qobuz, but you would think this is possible.
One problem (temporary?) with Tidal Max may be that the UI doesn’t seem to clearly distinguish high-res from MQA. I’m actually upbeat about MQA sound, but it would be better if you could distinguish, say, 24/96 FLAC and 16/44 MQA recordings. I will test it when I return from a road trip.
@@thomasmartin2219 The LUMIN App is one of the only ways to distinguish between MAX (Flac) and MQA. You see both versions side-by-side and can choose which to play.
Wifi should be an option, especially at this price point. Let the end user decide if they want to use ethernet or wifi. Seems like every time I read a pro review for a streamer the reviewer says they couldn't tell a difference.
"Optional" only is fine. Someone like me (obstinate & caustic) thinks one cannot be taken seriously if wireless is in the signal chain & would prevent me from even considering the product.
Reggae, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Sorry, no matter what names you invent, you can not violate the laws of physics! If a power amp has a given input voltage for maximum output, say 2V is common, any more than that just clips/ distorts, OK say some headroom needed and use 3V. So say the analog source needs to provide at most a 3V peak signal. But the device output stage is usually well above that, often 6V -10V So it needs to be cut in half at least. An analog control just takes the full voltage and gives it out at what ever ratio you want! Full resolution at each point on the slope.
But if you use digital to control the output level, the ONLY way to have 3V out of a 6V stage is to never use any sample levels over the most significant bit. IWO cut the S/N and resolution in half. And that is to play at FULL VOLUME! You want half volume? Toss another bit! low listen levels from a device with a 10V analog stage? How many bits do you think you have left?
What Leedh Processing does is manipulate the sample individual sample data to reuce resolution in front. From their site: "For instance, consider a signal represented in 24bits words (MSB aligned). If volume control coefficients were limited to 8 bits and the input signal had 16bits resolution, no truncation would occur and no information would be lost."
"If volume control coefficients were limited to 8 bits "
Yes by prefiltering removing resolution in front, the decoversion is lossless because the information was not there anymore in the first place. But what is being suggested is this is less distortion than just bit dropping w/ dither as other use.
But it does not touch even a simple passive analog volume control for pure signal transmission.
My understanding is that the LEEDH approach sets the system word length = music data word length + volume control coefficient word length. When the music data word is multiplied by the VC coefficient and then truncation is applied, only the LSBs of the result are truncated, leaving the original music data word length (resolution) at a lower level. This works up to about 30 db of attenuation from full DAC output with the system I saw analyzed. Presumably (!), DAC makers using the LEEDH approach set their output levels to try to make this 30 db as useful as possible. In typical arrangements it would seem to be enough range to work. Measurements by third parties shown that the LEEDH output mirrors the input at a lower level when in that -0 to -30db range. The central idea of LEEDH is pretty simple in that it makes the VC coefficient a small enough word length that required music word lengths can be practically accommodated. The drawback is that volume adjustments of arbitrary amounts cannot be achieved (e.g. -1 db target reduction = - 1.16 db with LEEDH). I didn't notice this as an issue because real listeners generally don't think in terms of very exact volume changes. Maybe I misunderstand the limitations, because certainly Lumin and Acoustical Beauty are mostly explaining why this is useful.
@@thomasmartin2219 "leaving the original music data word length (resolution) at a lower level" Exactly what I was saying. No matter how you word it, the only way you can have a digital volume control is to reduce bit depth. If a DAC has a given voltage out for a sample representing max voltage (all ones), the only way to play at half that volume is never trigger the most significant bit. Drop a bit. How many systems play at good listening levels with the volume control at half way? (best position is a different discussion) Fairly common I would guess. So if you want moderate listening level, quarter volume setting? Drop another bit?
LEEDH seems to accept this and just say that well this is less lossy. That if you assume you are going to have fewer bits to deal with, you can maximize for it. But never resolve it. When gone they are gone.
Where an analog volume control takes the entire range of voltage excursion and just adjusts the maximum voltage level as needed.
And interesting test would be a good passive volume control vs direct connection. Resistance does effect the bandwidth of the Input's RC network. So varying even a passive control could affect sound. But I would expect, less.
@@thomasmartin2219 "The drawback is that volume adjustments of arbitrary amounts cannot be achieved (e.g. -1 db target reduction = - 1.16 db with LEEDH). I didn't notice this as an issue because real listeners generally don't think in terms of very exact volume changes. Maybe I misunderstand the limitations, because certainly Lumin and Acoustical Beauty are mostly explaining why this is useful."
Yes I saw that. It would make sense that certain numbers calculate more accurately. Explaining the square root of 4 is much easier than 5. There are likely multiples that render more efficiently. But the same would be said for the better analog approach of stepped attenuators rather than a variable resistor. Better sonic results but discrete not not infinitely variable.
When I was in computer graphics the computer workspace was doubled in bit depth for combining two streams. Two 8 bit streams required 16 bit processing and the output was then reduced back to 8 bits. And it was almost impossible to capture a smooth linear transition because some bit step would always be more noticeable than another.
Gaucho was essentially a high water mark for analog, just prior to digital.
Fully mature 2" Studer A800 magnetic tape, fed by Rupert Neve's finest 8068 console.
Gaucho was excess at its finest.
Fagan and Becker obsessed about the smallest details ... the finest session musicians ... laying down the same part for the same song.
Plus, the first use of digital sampling in the drum tracks.
Of course, ... a year or two later, Fagan went full digital on the Nightfly.
The height of analog, to the beginning of digital ... both superb reference level examples of the art.
Some bitch about digital ... but Fagan's Nightfly is 𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙧 𝙛𝙤𝙧𝙩𝙮 𝙮𝙚𝙖𝙧𝙨 𝙤𝙡𝙙 ... its fine even by today's standards.
Yes, indeed. More excess at its finest: 55 takes for the outro of Babylon Sisters. $550,000 (2023 dollars) for a custom drum machine. And the 24-track (or possibly 2 Studers for 48 track) analog master tape seems to be part of why the hi-res digital is so good. The right tools in the right hands…
@@thomasmartin2219
Indeed, dual 24 track Studers.
The "drum machine", was analog recorded drum hits, ... I believe Rick Marotta, then sequenced/manipulated for perfect timing.
Besides ... they only had Steve Gadd, Rick Marotta, Bernard Purdie and Jeff Porcaro!!!
Streaming, in my opinion, is one of the most non-audiophile ways of enjoying music. Sitting with a remote control scrolling through files. Yaaaay!
That is some strange gatekeeping, unless it takes a lot of effort to listen to music it's not audiophile? So only pure audiophile is R2R then? Vinyl and cd's are too easy, don't even have to rewind!!