Johnny Green Face no that was the British guy who was in one seen in early in the movie and shows up again after Ludendorff gets killed and says hello I’m the god of war that’s doing the hole emperor palpatine think of telling both sides what to do
@@kaiserreichempireofohio834 What are the odd we would see eachother on a channel we both freqent and have seen eachother on multiple times before? very low on my count
"At least we don't name ships after our mother in law"~The commander of USS Reuben James, flashing a signal to his counterpart aboard HMS Battleaxe. A light moment in a serious, dark book. It's actually used in Military Academies as required reading.
"What the devil is a Reuben James?" as Battleaxe wanted to know. IIRC Reuben James was the first American warship sunk in WW2, by a U-boat shortly before Pearl Harbour.
Greyson Gagliardo Years of Rice and Salt has a more lethal bubonic plague as a point of divergence. I don’t know of any stories about an earlier/worse 1918 Spanish Flu but that’s a huge topic, could do a whole episode on Spanish Flu. More lethal Justinian plague would put a whole new spin on the late Roman Empire. I’d feel uncomfortable discussing it because it’s still ongoing and the wounds are still fresh so to speak, but some interesting things could be done with an alternate AIDS outbreak: imagine how the US would handle AIDS in the 50s, or if the government didn’t ignore it as they did in reality.
Radiations was what it is over or are they testing capabilities but that is how the nuclear reactors melted down and the radiation cloud spread causing evacuation
@@shaunjohnson1854 mostly it started about whether or not they should even go to war, and the few soviet ministers that want war have to go about convincing the rest. Then they have to have discussions with the military officials if it’s even possible, etc etc. They also laid down their procedures for nukes and had to get everyone to agree with it.
@@seanassociateproductions1691 that sounds interesting the book but they shouldn't of had to go to war strange stuff aye but how would you know make the weapons safe when there designed to kill true most probably in many different ways do think radiation can cause cancer have watched monster of man about nuclear powered Android and ellicium I'm not sure I spelt it right if you find it check it out flipping scary bro
Oh yeah, the whole first part of the book is building this foreboding sense that something is coming. The Americans and West Germans are kind of aware, but no one else is willing to believe them that the USSR and WARPAC are about to attack NATO.
@@Isaaxz123 Right? It's probably the most depressing techo-thriller ever written. I've read a few of Ralph Peters other books and it's very evident he is not a fan of happy endings.
This Book and Video Game caused me to join the US Navy and fly in P3C Orions as an AW acoustic Naval Aircrewman... Helped me be #1 in "A" school as I already had a concept of what to do, believe it or not. This is still my favorite book! One thing that was discussed in the book was Prairie Masker. That was Classified even when I joined in 1989.
I was in the US Army Infantry from 1987-1989 (Peace time, I know). This novel was to have taken place while we were actually serving and became required ready for us. The way we trained to fight the Soviets was exactly how this book had the war going. This novel and LOTR are my two favorite books of all time.
Try Weapons of Choice. It's a trilogy of scifi about a modern 21st C Naval group that is accidentally sent back ton 1942 via a wormhole. They arrive in the Pacific just before the battle of Midway and clash with the US Navy at first until they sort out who, what and when they are. Then, they begin to integrate with the US Navy and a few of their super frigates are with the Royal Navy so they are sent back to the UK to help defend it from the Nazis. Excellent series as the author addresses the clash of cultures btwn the modern, racially and sexually integrated Navy with the WWII culture of men only and racial segregation of US soldiers. Even better than Red Storm Rising, imo.
I remember hearing that in the Entente Plan 1919, they planned on using bombers to paradrop soldiers into battle in conjunction with massive tank advances with hundreds tanks
Someone should've written that for the contest. Damn, imagine it with different documents (e.g. the pre-operation plans, letters from soldiers about to go out into the battle, accounta from Germans on the defence and records of interrogations of captured paras, maybe close it out with history books dicussing how it impacted the war...) The tank part of the plan sounds somewhat reasonable, but the paratrooper part just sounds wild.
Talkernate History of his more recent books, it’s pretty good and has a satisfying conclusion, at least it’s better than what I’ve listen to so far in “The War That Came Early” and it’s not bad compared to “The Man with the Iron Heart” which is pretty ridiculous
Talkernate History can you do the 2020 commission report on the North Korea nuclear attacks upon the United States by Jeffery Lewis It’s like a speculative fiction story where North Korea launches a nuclear strike upon the continental US and the war begins with a shoot down of a passenger plane
What’s funny is that the pilot of the F-117 shot down over Serbia Dale Zelko is now friends with the LT Colonel that was commanding the missile launcher that shot him down.
Hey guys you should read "The War in 2020" by Ralph Peter's. It's a work of speculative fiction that explores an alternate history where the Soviet union persists until 2020, but its horribly corrupt and about to collapse in the face of a massive uprising by its islamic population. The book mainly details the U.Ss attempt to prop up the Soviets as a part of a wider cold war with a resurgent japan It's full of crazy shit, like depictions of wholesale use of chemical weapons in a modern war, a flesh eating plague, and the torture of a computer (I'm fucking serious)
"POSITIVE ATTITUDE CHECK!" "I positively hate this ----ing place." "NEGATIVE ATTITUDE CHECK!" "I don't like this ----ing place." "SHORT ATTITUDE CHECK!" " ---- it!"
Uh, you do realize that the "cartoonish villain" plot that leads to war in this book is pretty much the actual motivation for Japan attacking the US in WWII, right?
I'm going to suggest Future war: 198x, a "generally" realistic ova about the cold war going hot in 1988. If you haven't seen it yet I highly suggest it for another cold war video reference!
Speaking as someone born after the end of the Cold War, the Tom Clancy-style thrillers have always caught my attention as something that the readers of the late 80s and early 90s thought at least somewhat plausible, and something that was really unique to the era and not really able to be replicated today (until recently when China was able to assert itself as a viable foil to unchallenged US global hegemony). If you’re looking for more work by Larry Bond, I highly recommend the novel “Vortex”, which was written in 1991 and takes place in a world where the attempts for South Africa to peacefully transition out of Apartheid completely and catastrophically collapse. It’s definitely a refreshing departure from the typical Cold War thrillers.
Couple points. Harpoon, well indeed having been adapted to a computer game, is more famous as a table top war game. Clancy used the Harpoon reference book well writing The Hunt for Red October, and in a 1986 interview at the NSA of all places, notes how useful it was, compared to most more clunky military texts he had access to at the time. He and Larry Bond used the Harpoon tabletop game, to simulate the war at sea shown in the book, hence why he credits Bond with assisting him with the book. Ronald Reagan began eating Jellybeans, as a way to quit smoking. When he was to be inaugurated in 1981, Goelitz produced Blueberry, a new flavor, to allow for an American flag display of beans to be present. During the Iran-Iraq war, several Iranian AH-1 Super Cobra helicopter gunships, engaged both Hind helicopters, AND at least three MiG-21 fighters. Last, well indeed Tom Clancy's game studio, Red Storm entertainment, had his assistance with some of it's first titles (Rainbow Six, Rainbow Six Rouge Spear, Ghost Recon) by 2002, Ubisoft was licencing games with the Tom Clancy brand (Indeed, his name by then was it's own brand, same reason it dwarfs the title of most of his books) and in the 2010s, they bought the rights to the name entirely, thus, today the series of ever less serious games that stain the Clancy name... (If you cannot tell, this irks me to no end)
@@pogo1140 there is no way they can adopt the plot like in the book, there are too many main characters If they do it's probably be a mini story from the war with refrence to the book and with maybe some guys from it, also I hope it never happens as hollywood/netflix/hbo are making shitty woke movies
I hope you guys do Fatherland by Robert Harris sometime. Just to let you know, the movie doesn't do the book much justice. Mainly because the movie is a bit rushed and sets the point of divergence in 1944 after the Allies lose at D-Day (sound familiar?) while in the book, the point of divergence is that Operation Blue is successful and that Reinhard Heydrich survives assassination. Not to mention that the book has much more world building. What good I can say about the movie is that it looks good for a TV movie. Getting all of those SS uniforms probably wasn't cheap.
God I loved this book. I was really young, I didnt really understand what the weapon systems were but the human drama carried it for me. Larry Bonds Vortex and Red Phoenix are just as good
i dare say that Ralph Peters' Red Army was better than red storem rising in terms of accuracy and nuance. RSR is a fun, heart pounding read, with the memorable characters. HOwever Peters made his characters deeper
I read that the Politburo was actually split on whether they should launch an attack on NATO. This was in the mid 80's when they went through 3 Secretary's General, and it was obvious the USSR was going to fail. I was in the RCN then, and recall the Soviet Navy was being more aggressive than normal, observing our operations. A TU-95 flew directly over our ASW task group at 300m, in the Barent Sea. A Kresta class cruiser steamed right through the middle of our TG while a RAS serial was underway. Both were very not normal actions.
Two years ago I was watching this podcast and my senile jewish grandpa who was stationed in Berlin during the Cold War heard you say "Germany is trying to unify itself by force" with no context and I hear him in the other room go "THEY DID WHAT???"
50 missiles?, Thats a normal Tuesday for the Belkans. Also Ace Combat 7 has the whole satellite Warfare aspect to it. It very well executed the chaos and confusion caused by it
I do wish it was alot more realistic. The aces dont win wars. The never have, and never will, unless all of them are aces. In that case, the enemy cannot repel firepower of that magnitude.
@@Thecrownswill Yeah but that would take the fun out of it, because in the end the only thing that made Ace Combat games interesting for a kid like me who didn't even speak properly English until 2010 was the joy of Wrecking Enemy planes and change the tide of war singlehandedly. nowadays I get my realistic Flying experience from DCS. My Roommate has a really good Flight setup complete with Gyroscopic Seats and everything so it gets really hectic. Enough rambling; Just try DCS my man. Its super fun especially with freinds.
The US Army Infantry Divisions are broken down in three groups. The Regular Army (1st-25th Infantry Division), The Army National Guard (26th - 50th Infantry Divisions), and the Army of the United States (Drafted Divisions) (51st on) but most of the lower number divisions weren't used and became "Ghost Divisions." Some side facts both the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions started out as Divisions of the Army of the United States, but were brought into the Regular Army. The 49th and 50th Divisions were only active as Armored Divisions after WW2. 43rd, 44th, 45th Divisions were formed after World War One , and the 47th Infantry Division after WW2. The 48th Division was created after WW2 and was both an Infantry and Armored Division.
36:58 I see you're going through on the plan to make sure to talk about the Baltic states so that multiple World's Strongest Man champion Žydrūnas Savickas doesn't come after you.
If you look into the declassified documents you will see that both the US and other countries operated on the basis of meeting force with force, they did not want to move away from a conventional armed conflict unless the other side did so first. Also, the Middle East was always considered a potential World War III battlefield and strategic moves were taken to defend and stop the Soviets in their invasion of the Middle East in such a scenario.
The Soviet problem with buying ANYTHING is the Soviet ruble was not convertible. Western corporations dealing in the Soviet Bloc had to take payment in product - Pepsi, for instance, took payment in vodka.
Iceland and it's strategically important location was enough of a big deal that it was invaded by Britain in the spring of 1940 (at the same time as Germany was invading France). It was then occupied the USA a year later (6 months *before* Pearl Harbour and the official entry of the US into WW2).
Shame you didn't spend any time discussing in depth the Third Battle of the Atlantic. It's portrayal of massive convoys, with carriers damaged or sunk, entire MEUs disappearing into the depths of the ocean, Tomcats vs Backfires, made for a very compelling part of the story, more so than the land war. The whole point of the invasion of Iceland is to setup for this battle, it's a major part of the story. WIll the Soviets cut off NATO from North American supplies?
Just one point, I just reread Red Storm Rising, and the justification they give for the lack of WMDs in this conflict is that a bunch of Warsaw Pact states straight up tell the Soviets they're not cool with their countries being left uninhabitable. I dont think its realistic, but maybe the authors had the increasing auonomy of the Warsaw Pact Nations in mind when they wrote this.
Non Soviet Warsaw Pact constituted a third of the Soviet's military strength. During peacetime it was pretty trivial for the Soviets to force through doing things the way they wanted but during a war I'd imagine the satellite states would have a little better bargaining power.
So I admit I’ve reread this book a number of times. You guys got a number of things wrong about my beloved book but you guys still did a great job with the commentary.
I appreciate that! Looking back, I think we went way too hard into criticisms about the "plausibility" of the Soviet Union's war justification. Recent events have shown that war in Europe can start for the dumbest of reasons. Just because it's not rational, doesn't mean it's not plausible. And we didn't spend enough time praising the things it did right. I'm still proud of this episode, but if we could go back and do it again, I'd do it a little differently.
So, reason behind the 116th Panzer Divisions jump in name: So, German 16th Infantry Division, after the Fall of France, it was motorized and split in 2. 1 part had an added tank regiment and became the 16th Panzer Division (first to reach Stalingrad), the rest formed the 16th Motorized Division. And then later in the war, the 16th Motorized was upgraded to an armored division. To carry over the traditions of the unit, it was named the 116th Panzer Division. Thats not 100% air tight, but...thats the best I got from what I know.
Love this book, thanks fir taking the time to do this, Quick point on your grief with the motivations, the people that decided to go to war lost one third of their country's fuel and were attempting to buy their continued personal power with the lives of their citizens...so for politicians, not unlikely
the whole "ghost rider" thing is very interesting when you figure that no one, outside the military, knew what the F-117 was when the book was written.
33:13 Showing M48 Patton's as he says they didn't use M48's XD For real, both the Germans and Americans used M48's in Patton. The British used the M24 Chaffee.
Red storm rising was a Larry Bond book. The only thing Clancy had any input on was the Iceland part. If you ready ANY Larry Bond book this becomes painfully obvious. It follows the same formula as pretty much all of his other books. Clancy's name was put on the cover only for marquee appeal after the success of Hunt for Red October.
I was working in India on work experience when they got ride of the 500, 1000 notes. It was mild chaos no one had cash for like 3 months , there were massive ques to deposit the old notes in the bank and even roots took 4 months before it got back to normal. It was such a mess because they have 3 hour notice and didn't even tell the banks. Had to wait for 1 hour to get 25 pounds worth of rupees because there was a 25 daily limit
24:40 From my understanding, the most accurate tank rounds nowadays are fin-stabilized, and apparently those don't work with rifled barrels, leading to the strange situation where rifled tank cannons are no longer the accurate option
It's less that SABOT doesnt work with a rifled barrel, it's that they are velocity dependent for their effect...the UK still use rifled barrels so they can use HESH at longer ranges, where SABOT is less effecter.
I don’t know how you guys don’t have more subscribers. It’s amazing to me how much useless you guys know. You guys are so fascinating to listen to. I hope the videos keep coming.
I served in an Army reserve unit whose mission (should the NATO scenario Red Storm Rising was based on happen) was to fly to Reykyavik and defend the radar and SOSUS networks from Russian Marines/VDV Airborne forces. Iceland was our eyes on the entire north Atlantic. Our units annual exercise was to fly to Keflavik and force March, under fire, all the way to Reykjavik. Royal Marines played the Soviet Marines and a German unit simulated VDV. We took the mission seriously because the Brits and Germans had skin in the European game.
You say it is an absurd notion they would do that than just buy oil, but they damn near poisoned a major piece of Europe without asking for help in Chernobyl.
Hi, Had fun listing to this. I think its almost 20 years ago that I read the book. I read it in Swedish so perhaps they mistranslated some things. But I remember that I enjoyed the book. But as you guys mention the reason for invading the west and destroy NATO and then to invade the middle east for oil is so silly. They could have come with a better reason for it. IIRC Able Archer was close to trigger a war between the WP and NATO. But it was only a command post exercise. Regarding the best tank during WWII it think in all around I think it was some of the Sherman models that where the best tanks. And there were so many of them at least in the mid to later part of the war.
You guys really misunderstand the whole point of this book, they never meant to have an actual War with NATO, it was being used as a distraction you might want to read it again
@@willisix2554 I read it, it's clear the Soviets attack NATO hoping they can prevent any retaliation against their campaign in the Middle East. To call it a "distraction" is really silly. They were hoping to split apart NATO politically so they wouldn't stop them getting their oil.
40:49 I love how RUclips and AI or DCS renderings of the book and it's narrated passages give the the wonderful characters of Clancy's book like the Japanese heritage fighter Buns pilot, New Life and Love by fans
Well, they also said that they just plain didn't have enough money to buy the amount of oil that they would require. Some might mistakenly think that the idea of, say, Soviets invading Iran was never an idea taken seriously -- but that is wrong. Those in doubt should examine "The Crisis Game," by the Kennedy School of Government, and that is something you can now ee on RUclips. I remember that I saw it on VHS in college.
Regarding chemical weapons, there is a whole detailed chapter about why, at the end, the Soviet donìt use it. But when things go South the Politburo orders the use of nuclear weapons just fine. It is not true that the Soviet don't want to use them.
Bradley is and is not an armored personnel carrier. It's considered a IFV or infantry fighting vehicle. Just as the BMP and BMD are considered the same.
If you liked the 'nitty gritty tactical crap', you might consider taking a look at Michael Palmer's "The War that Never Was". It's a very similar premise: the Soviets invade Europe in the late-80s. However, it takes a different approach to portraying it. For one, it takes a much 'harder' approach to the conflict; no fake aircraft or unfeasible soviet invasions of Iceland. It's also a lot broader. It takes very little time covering the fighting in central Europe, leaving that to the huge amount of books that came before it. It uses those pages instead to develop many other fronts, like Scandinavia and the Balkans, as well as the Mediterranean with its fighting between Syria and Israel, and diplomatic efforts between the US and Egypt and the USSR and Libya. The US bombs Vietnam while North and South Korea whack at each other. The US and Japan take on the Soviet Pacific Fleet. It even touches on a dilemma with Castro, who doesn't declare war when the rest of the fighting kicks off. It makes the war feel like a "World War", which is something neglected by a lot of its peers. The cause and end of the war are left unexplained, which is a tad silly, but allows it to avoid some of the pitfalls of similar fiction. It isn't perfect. The prose, while adequate, isn't amazing and the fighting is a lot more tell than show. Characters take a backseat to the conflict. Few show up repeatedly, and while characterization isn't completely lacking, it's very rare, and is used to service the conflict rather than the other way around. It probably isn't the best choice to read if the technical military drivel of Red Storm Rising was a bit heavy for you, but it's still a pretty great book. It makes the war feel like a real event whereas Red Storm Rising often feels like a contrived set-piece, which is funny, because the World War III in The War that Never Was is actually an elaborate in-universe wargame.
Is a Russian invasion of Iceland really unfeasible? It had no real military, it had a single USAF F-15 squadron (not even a full strength one) based there and a small USAF/USMC/US Army presence to handle base security. A mechanized battalion after multiple missile strikes would be able to take it.
@@pogo1140 It's extremely impractical and risky. The weather has to be good or the invasion force can't land. The landing force will have to stay under the radar. I'm not too familiar with maritime regulation, but Iceland isn't really on any major shipping lanes, and I would be surprised if a large soviet merchant vessel showing up wouldn't raise any red flags. More importantly than all that, however, is that the war needs to be a surprise for NATO. It won't take too long for the US to fly in the 187th infantry, and it'll take time to spin up this hypothetical landing force. There's an extremely short time-frame that the landing could possibly happen, and it's completely impossible under more probable circumstances. Finally, if the invasion is successful, the soviets now have a bunch of troops stuck on an island with some unusable airstrips far away from possible of resupply. Not a useless gesture, but they'll be rooted out and the airfields will be back to hosting NATO aircraft before too long. Unrelated to the feasibility argument is that the soviets didn't plan on recreating the convoy attacks of the two previous world wars. Without those Iceland is pretty useless. Note: I don't have my copy of RSR anymore and it's been a while, so forgive any misrecollection on my part.
@@alittoralgecko4562 Iceland has regular sea traffic going past it and into it. It would be back in US control if they can land something there. Problem would be getting past the Backfire swarm that would be hitting any troop ships that try to get within 200miles or 10hrs from the island. These bombers would be protected by MiG-29's which in the scenario were flown to Keflavik as soon as the airfield was captured. Also at Keflavik were the mobile SAM's which along with the MiG's immunize the Russian occupation force from US bombers and strike aircraft. As far as unusable runways, the MiG-29 can operate out of a taxiway or the service road.
@@pogo1140 Again, the soviets would have a difficult time getting anything landed on Iceland before the reservists arrive. The Soviets will have to get its amphib troops and landing craft loaded up in the Barents sea and shipped on a multi-day journey to Iceland. It'll be a lot quicker to fly some guys with rifles from Maryland to Iceland, which was the US' plan. This only possibly works if the Soviets anticipate the war a good week before it happens and the US doesn't detect any buildup or otherwise makes no preparations of its own. If it were that easy the Soviets would have no problem reaching the Rhine. In no way would we see soviet aircraft being operated from Iceland. Getting the additional personnel, supplies, and munitions necessary to operate a meaningful amount of aircraft out of Iceland, nearly 1400 miles away from any supply lines, would be impractical. The US would missile any airstrips, fuel dumps, shelters. It's an easy fix when you have plenty of support personnel at the airbase, but this would be in the center of hostile territory. Any aircraft the Soviets put on Iceland would be practically giving the kills to NATO when they sortie one or two times, run out of missiles, can't take off because there's no fuel, and marines retake the island. And yeah, while a Mig-29 might be able to operate off of a taxiway, the aircraft bringing supplies and reinforcements aren't so lucky.
Taking Iceland makes sense as it's radar can provide early warning of backfire raids into the North Atlantic and planes based out of Keflavik would be able to intercept those Backfires. And the fear of a massive raid like that in the book is just the scenario is why the Navy built the F-14 and the Aegis ships. BTW, resources, the denial of access to resources like oil, tin, scrap metal are why Japan went to war. Iraq invaded Iran over a disputed oil field, Iraq invaded Kuwait because of a dispute over unpaid loans. And the idea behind the limited war is the same for the US, we wanted to keep any war in Europe to a limited conventional war. We did not want to attack Moscow directly for fear of escalating to a full on nuke exchange.
Talkernate History, can you guys do an episode about Robert Harris's Fatherland? It doesn't go into that much detail about how history diverged, but it does go into great detail describing a Europe ruled by Nazis, and I think it's probably the most realistic alternate WW2 novel I've personally read. Would love to hear your take on it!
Have you guys ever covered Ian Slater's World War III series? It starts off as a somewhat interesting WW3-in-the-1980s in the first couple books, but the series really starts to run out of steam toward the end of seven books, and I don't recall if the war is actually completely resolved. Then starting 8th book the series, while still titled as part of the WW3 series and still featuring a main character named Douglas Freeman, seems to become a bunch of standalone novels.
Y’all sound like the friends I was hoping to find in high school. But even among the nerds I was a little too much. Oh well. Subbed and will watch more.
25:24 YA GUYZ!!!!!! How many times do I gotta tell ya?! The Medal of Honor is NOT a competition! You don't WIN it! You EARN it for valorous conduct above and beyond the call of duty!
Hey if your interested, Maybe you can make us write some short alternate history stories and you review them. It's like a meme review but for alternate history.
I got an idea, going to take a lot of reading but it's well worth it. Okay for what might be the ultimateWWIII story, we start with red storm Rising, it talks a lot about the Naval aspects and Air Force parts, then you read Team Yankee(Harold Coyle) which deals with the ground aspect especially the armor, then you move on to Red Army(Ralph Peters) which deals with the Soviet Ground Force view of the war and to wrap it all up, you read the Third World War August 1985( General Sir John Hacket) which is an overview of World War 3 told afterwards. So, what do you guys think?
There is also the game Cold Waters, the spiritual successor to Red Storm Rising, the game. It is not as in depth and is more accessible to players new to submarine combat or late cold war machines of war.
Great episode. A few things. Spoilers follow. 1. Iceland was a legit target for the USSR because it was the middle piece of the GIUK gap which supported the SOSUS line. This was a sonar line acting as a tripwire across the North Sea. 2. The guy trapped on Iceland with the Marines - Edwards? - doesn't really do too much Red Dawnish stuff, though the Soviets *think* that's what they're doing, with one exception when they tangle with some Russian soldiers who have just killed some civilians. The side plot with the Icelandic girl was perhaps a bit much. Maybe Clancy had a crush on Bjork once upon a time. 3. I think the oil refinery that is destroyed is supposed to be near Manhattan-sized, hence the reason its destruction is so crucial. 4. Clancy more or less copied Hackett's WW3 scenario in "The Third World War". In Hackett's book, the Soviet plot to attack the West is based more on 70's geopolitics: the impression of Western weakness around the world and Soviet supremacy in ground equipment, coupled with some dastardly Soviet meddling - South Africa goes up in revolution as does Mexico - emboldens the Politburo into believing that Western Europe can be cowed if West Germany is swallowed up. Hackett was trying to raise awareness of what he perceived as critical shortcomings of NATO and the UK armed forces. Also, his WW2 experience shows: Britain is attacked from the air - conventionally - the same way it was attacked by the Germans in the Blitz years. I would love to see you guys cover Hackett's book BTW. However, where Hackett depicts the war going nuclear, Clancy does not. Coyle, writing Team Yankee, does Hackett's war point for point including the same nuclear targets. Clancy does give a pretty good reason why chemicals are not used, however [fear of the GDR dropping out of the war if chemical fallout caused huge civilian losses on the 'wrong' side of the border]. Coyle and Hackett have the cork on chemicals fully popped. Short version: Hackett's book pretty much set the template for WW3 stories in the 80's. 5. Finally, about the oil and the nukes: the ending is I suppose a little silly since the West immediately agrees to sell the Russians the oil they needed in the first place. But, FWIW, it's a new non-Soviet government. The young Turks in the Politburo and the Army refuse to resort to nuclear weapons. When the revelation about the Kremlin plot becomes more widely known, the Army actually removes the Soviet government; so, technically, it's a new ball game where the post-Soviet government negotiates the peace, like how Wiemar negotiated the end of WWI.
To add to your first point, of which all are great, Iceland was also taken as a way to ensure the Backfire raids into the Atlantic would be mostly trouble free from fighter intercepts. The first strike by them and the Badgers is a great example of drone use and BVR engagements. That first convoy got smashed because of it.
Would you guys do one about the Turtledove series about the war that came early? I just read it and it seems not even plausible with some of the things that happen in it.
Honestly last Blood was much better than most think, in fact the biggest problem Critics have with it is that it's "racist" to Mexicans, even though it was meant to show how terrible of a situation it was down there, trust me I've met Mexicans who and other people who have been in cartel dominated cities and they were all like "it's about as racist as black panther."
One of the best books I have ever read. I was absolutely destroyed at work for a few days as I read it all in about 2 days and nights. Literally couldn't put it down and got about 2 hours sleep for 2 nights in a row! I have read it twice and I have the audibook as well and have given that a few listens.
@@andrewpizzino2514 great minds think alike. It really is a stunner! Shame there was never a film, but it probably would have cost all the money in the world to have made and done the book justice.
To be perfectly fair, they mention multiple times in the book, that members of the Politburo say the plan is absurd. It's just that the army is convinced that asking for help from the west would (Probably rightfully so) put them in the pocket of the west. I didn't seem to find the scenario all together that off topic for the late stages of the Soviet Union. Also a lot of the things, like the hover craft barges and stuff, are all actual Soviet plans for invasion. I don't know I guess I just didn't find it absurd. Also, the missiles, naval warfare now is actually almost all missiles. The F-19 was the fake Stealth Fighter that someone at Testors invented to sell models that everyone claimed was the REAL stealth fighter. So it's not based off the F-117, it's just something the Pentagon said existed that totally didn't.
I don’t know if there’s necessarily that much to dig into for an episode but if you guys are familiar with the game World in Conflict it’s almost a similar premise to this, about a NATO vs USSR world war in Europe and the US in 1989/ early 1990. It’s a really good game
was my first book i read from Tom Clancy, and have reread it twice since then, i bought it back in 89 while deployed in Germany. before wall came down. was great read.
I thought that, for the submarine warfare portion of the book, that the Soviets' quality of HK subs were evidence of decline. This book, Hunt for Red October, and Debt of Honor are my favorites.
29:30 this is actually a soviet thing I think they called it the fraternal kiss and you would hug while doing it They actually had to get people to stop doing it because in big meetings it took so long for everyone to kiss each other that there was little time for the actual meeting
Note that generally in wargaming, as was done for this book by all accounts, particularly with the rules written in the 70s & 80s the side which first uses NBC weapons is penalised so heavily the generally lose, which is why they aren't used in this scenario.
According to Wikipedia, Nizhnevartovsk is one of the wealthiest cities in Russia thanks to Western Siberian oil. EDIT: Because of this, if the nearby refinery was destroyed like it was in the story, the Soviet economy would be cleaved at the knees.
I don't know if this has been recommended to you guys before, but you should try to get your hands on a copy of If It Had Happened Otherwise. There's quite a few good stories in there that I'd love to hear you guys talk about. Anyways, love your show!
Ludendorff was killed in 1918 as shown in the great historical movie Wonder Woman
Ludendorff was literally like a Greek god/daemon sorta thing too
Johnny Green Face no that was the British guy who was in one seen in early in the movie and shows up again after Ludendorff gets killed and says hello I’m the god of war that’s doing the hole emperor palpatine think of telling both sides what to do
Hey johnny!
@@kaiserreichempireofohio834 What are the odd we would see eachother on a channel we both freqent and have seen eachother on multiple times before? very low on my count
Ye indeed
"At least we don't name ships after our mother in law"~The commander of USS Reuben James, flashing a signal to his counterpart aboard HMS Battleaxe.
A light moment in a serious, dark book. It's actually used in Military Academies as required reading.
"What the devil is a Reuben James?" as Battleaxe wanted to know.
IIRC Reuben James was the first American warship sunk in WW2, by a U-boat shortly before Pearl Harbour.
A talkernate history episode less than a month after the last? A miracle!
Hah! We're trying very hard to stay on schedule in 2020
@@TalkernateHistory Man I listened to Alt-Gen 3 last night hoping for a new episode and here we are
Bob Bemis same thing happened to me with Generals 3! I checked out soundcloud and BOOM, Jewish Genghis Khan right on Christmas Eve.
Greyson Gagliardo
Years of Rice and Salt has a more lethal bubonic plague as a point of divergence.
I don’t know of any stories about an earlier/worse 1918 Spanish Flu but that’s a huge topic, could do a whole episode on Spanish Flu.
More lethal Justinian plague would put a whole new spin on the late Roman Empire.
I’d feel uncomfortable discussing it because it’s still ongoing and the wounds are still fresh so to speak, but some interesting things could be done with an alternate AIDS outbreak: imagine how the US would handle AIDS in the 50s, or if the government didn’t ignore it as they did in reality.
@@TalkernateHistory Ah. Ahah ahahahaha. I love finding comments that looked with optimism into 2020.
50 kingfishes heading towards us? Huey Long rises
@Matthew Taylor But no one wears a warhead
I love how you guys can go off on a wild tangent for 20 minutes and then, without warning, just jump back into the main topic of the video
I feel like you guys REALLY downplayed the buildup to the war. They spent like 15 chapters arguing and bickering over that.
Oh you mean, actually following politics instead of just jumping right into the action.
Radiations was what it is over or are they testing capabilities but that is how the nuclear reactors melted down and the radiation cloud spread causing evacuation
@@shaunjohnson1854 mostly it started about whether or not they should even go to war, and the few soviet ministers that want war have to go about convincing the rest. Then they have to have discussions with the military officials if it’s even possible, etc etc. They also laid down their procedures for nukes and had to get everyone to agree with it.
@@seanassociateproductions1691 that sounds interesting the book but they shouldn't of had to go to war strange stuff aye but how would you know make the weapons safe when there designed to kill true most probably in many different ways do think radiation can cause cancer have watched monster of man about nuclear powered Android and ellicium I'm not sure I spelt it right if you find it check it out flipping scary bro
Oh yeah, the whole first part of the book is building this foreboding sense that something is coming. The Americans and West Germans are kind of aware, but no one else is willing to believe them that the USSR and WARPAC are about to attack NATO.
You guys should look into the 1980s trend of a resurgent Japan, starting with "a Japan that can say no" and books like "The war in 2020"
The War in 2020 was so rad, and fucking depressing
Clancy's Debt of Honor played with this idea too. If you're into board games, check out - yes, really - "The Sushi-Jalapeno War".
@@Isaaxz123 Right? It's probably the most depressing techo-thriller ever written.
I've read a few of Ralph Peters other books and it's very evident he is not a fan of happy endings.
This Book and Video Game caused me to join the US Navy and fly in P3C Orions as an AW acoustic Naval Aircrewman... Helped me be #1 in "A" school as I already had a concept of what to do, believe it or not. This is still my favorite book! One thing that was discussed in the book was Prairie Masker. That was Classified even when I joined in 1989.
I love this alternate history story. Got me into Tom Clancy and alternate history. Always off topic as always you two.
Never clicked on a video faster in my life
Su-152s did see service into the 1980s but as self propelled artillery only
I was in the US Army Infantry from 1987-1989 (Peace time, I know). This novel was to have taken place while we were actually serving and became required ready for us. The way we trained to fight the Soviets was exactly how this book had the war going. This novel and LOTR are my two favorite books of all time.
Try Weapons of Choice. It's a trilogy of scifi about a modern 21st C Naval group that is accidentally sent back ton 1942 via a wormhole. They arrive in the Pacific just before the battle of Midway and clash with the US Navy at first until they sort out who, what and when they are. Then, they begin to integrate with the US Navy and a few of their super frigates are with the Royal Navy so they are sent back to the UK to help defend it from the Nazis. Excellent series as the author addresses the clash of cultures btwn the modern, racially and sexually integrated Navy with the WWII culture of men only and racial segregation of US soldiers. Even better than Red Storm Rising, imo.
US Army FISTER, 79 to 90....84-87 was on the Grenze with 2 ACR (the rest was 82d). This book rocked the way....
I remember hearing that in the Entente Plan 1919, they planned on using bombers to paradrop soldiers into battle in conjunction with massive tank advances with hundreds tanks
Which would have been a glorious disaster.
Someone should've written that for the contest.
Damn, imagine it with different documents (e.g. the pre-operation plans, letters from soldiers about to go out into the battle, accounta from Germans on the defence and records of interrogations of captured paras, maybe close it out with history books dicussing how it impacted the war...)
The tank part of the plan sounds somewhat reasonable, but the paratrooper part just sounds wild.
16:41 someone has been reading Hot War
Hah! Exactly!
Talkernate History of his more recent books, it’s pretty good and has a satisfying conclusion, at least it’s better than what I’ve listen to so far in “The War That Came Early” and it’s not bad compared to “The Man with the Iron Heart” which is pretty ridiculous
@@Cityinlead I've finished Hot War and I was pretty satisfied by it. The War that Came Early is good so far, but it should be a lot shorter.
Talkernate History can you do the 2020 commission report on the North Korea nuclear attacks upon the United States by Jeffery Lewis
It’s like a speculative fiction story where North Korea launches a nuclear strike upon the continental US and the war begins with a shoot down of a passenger plane
@@TalkernateHistory Can't find any of the Hot War books in my area, may have to get em online.
What’s funny is that the pilot of the F-117 shot down over Serbia Dale Zelko is now friends with the LT Colonel that was commanding the missile launcher that shot him down.
Hey guys you should read "The War in 2020" by Ralph Peter's. It's a work of speculative fiction that explores an alternate history where the Soviet union persists until 2020, but its horribly corrupt and about to collapse in the face of a massive uprising by its islamic population.
The book mainly details the U.Ss attempt to prop up the Soviets as a part of a wider cold war with a resurgent japan
It's full of crazy shit, like depictions of wholesale use of chemical weapons in a modern war, a flesh eating plague, and the torture of a computer (I'm fucking serious)
You have me sold
The torture of a fucking what now?
"POSITIVE ATTITUDE CHECK!" "I positively hate this ----ing place."
"NEGATIVE ATTITUDE CHECK!" "I don't like this ----ing place."
"SHORT ATTITUDE CHECK!" " ---- it!"
One of the best lines in the book
Doghouse, this is Beagle and GREAT COMMENT!
Uh, you do realize that the "cartoonish villain" plot that leads to war in this book is pretty much the actual motivation for Japan attacking the US in WWII, right?
JP got tricked into attacking and the US knew ahead of the attack claim some historians
I'm going to suggest Future war: 198x, a "generally" realistic ova about the cold war going hot in 1988. If you haven't seen it yet I highly suggest it for another cold war video reference!
Speaking as someone born after the end of the Cold War, the Tom Clancy-style thrillers have always caught my attention as something that the readers of the late 80s and early 90s thought at least somewhat plausible, and something that was really unique to the era and not really able to be replicated today (until recently when China was able to assert itself as a viable foil to unchallenged US global hegemony).
If you’re looking for more work by Larry Bond, I highly recommend the novel “Vortex”, which was written in 1991 and takes place in a world where the attempts for South Africa to peacefully transition out of Apartheid completely and catastrophically collapse. It’s definitely a refreshing departure from the typical Cold War thrillers.
Couple points.
Harpoon, well indeed having been adapted to a computer game, is more famous as a table top war game. Clancy used the Harpoon reference book well writing The Hunt for Red October, and in a 1986 interview at the NSA of all places, notes how useful it was, compared to most more clunky military texts he had access to at the time. He and Larry Bond used the Harpoon tabletop game, to simulate the war at sea shown in the book, hence why he credits Bond with assisting him with the book.
Ronald Reagan began eating Jellybeans, as a way to quit smoking. When he was to be inaugurated in 1981, Goelitz produced Blueberry, a new flavor, to allow for an American flag display of beans to be present.
During the Iran-Iraq war, several Iranian AH-1 Super Cobra helicopter gunships, engaged both Hind helicopters, AND at least three MiG-21 fighters.
Last, well indeed Tom Clancy's game studio, Red Storm entertainment, had his assistance with some of it's first titles (Rainbow Six, Rainbow Six Rouge Spear, Ghost Recon) by 2002, Ubisoft was licencing games with the Tom Clancy brand (Indeed, his name by then was it's own brand, same reason it dwarfs the title of most of his books) and in the 2010s, they bought the rights to the name entirely, thus, today the series of ever less serious games that stain the Clancy name...
(If you cannot tell, this irks me to no end)
I still keep hoping for a Red Storm Rising mini series, maybe 3-10 episodes long.
@@pogo1140 there is no way they can adopt the plot like in the book, there are too many main characters
If they do it's probably be a mini story from the war with refrence to the book and with maybe some guys from it, also I hope it never happens as hollywood/netflix/hbo are making shitty woke movies
I hope you guys do Fatherland by Robert Harris sometime.
Just to let you know, the movie doesn't do the book much justice. Mainly because the movie is a bit rushed and sets the point of divergence in 1944 after the Allies lose at D-Day (sound familiar?) while in the book, the point of divergence is that Operation Blue is successful and that Reinhard Heydrich survives assassination. Not to mention that the book has much more world building.
What good I can say about the movie is that it looks good for a TV movie. Getting all of those SS uniforms probably wasn't cheap.
I really enjoyed that book
My body is ready
For Tangents
God I loved this book. I was really young, I didnt really understand what the weapon systems were but the human drama carried it for me. Larry Bonds Vortex and Red Phoenix are just as good
i dare say that Ralph Peters' Red Army was better than red storem rising in terms of accuracy and nuance. RSR is a fun, heart pounding read, with the memorable characters. HOwever Peters made his characters deeper
I read that the Politburo was actually split on whether they should launch an attack on NATO. This was in the mid 80's when they went through 3 Secretary's General, and it was obvious the USSR was going to fail.
I was in the RCN then, and recall the Soviet Navy was being more aggressive than normal, observing our operations. A TU-95 flew directly over our ASW task group at 300m, in the Barent Sea.
A Kresta class cruiser steamed right through the middle of our TG while a RAS serial was underway. Both were very not normal actions.
Two years ago I was watching this podcast and my senile jewish grandpa who was stationed in Berlin during the Cold War heard you say "Germany is trying to unify itself by force" with no context and I hear him in the other room go "THEY DID WHAT???"
Can we have a discord?
50 missiles?, Thats a normal Tuesday for the Belkans.
Also Ace Combat 7 has the whole satellite Warfare aspect to it. It very well executed the chaos and confusion caused by it
Shahjahan Masood Nice to see another Ace Combat fan here.
@@ackbarfan5556 Ace Combat has become a lifestyle at this point
I do wish it was alot more realistic. The aces dont win wars. The never have, and never will, unless all of them are aces. In that case, the enemy cannot repel firepower of that magnitude.
@@Thecrownswill Yeah but that would take the fun out of it, because in the end the only thing that made Ace Combat games interesting for a kid like me who didn't even speak properly English until 2010 was the joy of Wrecking Enemy planes and change the tide of war singlehandedly. nowadays I get my realistic Flying experience from DCS. My Roommate has a really good Flight setup complete with Gyroscopic Seats and everything so it gets really hectic. Enough rambling; Just try DCS my man. Its super fun especially with freinds.
The US Army Infantry Divisions are broken down in three groups. The Regular Army (1st-25th Infantry Division), The Army National Guard (26th - 50th Infantry Divisions), and the Army of the United States (Drafted Divisions) (51st on) but most of the lower number divisions weren't used and became "Ghost Divisions." Some side facts both the 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions started out as Divisions of the Army of the United States, but were brought into the Regular Army. The 49th and 50th Divisions were only active as Armored Divisions after WW2. 43rd, 44th, 45th Divisions were formed after World War One , and the 47th Infantry Division after WW2. The 48th Division was created after WW2 and was both an Infantry and Armored Division.
50 standing divisions for a country of 140million (at the time.of ww2, when they reached this amoumt) seems rather low.
36:58 I see you're going through on the plan to make sure to talk about the Baltic states so that multiple World's Strongest Man champion Žydrūnas Savickas doesn't come after you.
If you look into the declassified documents you will see that both the US and other countries operated on the basis of meeting force with force, they did not want to move away from a conventional armed conflict unless the other side did so first. Also, the Middle East was always considered a potential World War III battlefield and strategic moves were taken to defend and stop the Soviets in their invasion of the Middle East in such a scenario.
Red this book a couple of times, some years apart.....EPIC BOOK!.....Even had Red storm rising game on Commodore Amiga! lol
Give the audiobook a try
A true sign of Sino-Soviet relations breaking down, the Chinese tell the Soviets, 'No means No!'
The Soviet problem with buying ANYTHING is the Soviet ruble was not convertible. Western corporations dealing in the Soviet Bloc had to take payment in product - Pepsi, for instance, took payment in vodka.
Iceland and it's strategically important location was enough of a big deal that it was invaded by Britain in the spring of 1940 (at the same time as Germany was invading France). It was then occupied the USA a year later (6 months *before* Pearl Harbour and the official entry of the US into WW2).
Are you folks planning to cover Sir John Hackett's "The Third World War"/"The Third World World: The Untold Story"?
Am I misremembering or did the USSR ask to buy oil from NATO countries and subsequently told to pound sand in the book?
Shame you didn't spend any time discussing in depth the Third Battle of the Atlantic. It's portrayal of massive convoys, with carriers damaged or sunk, entire MEUs disappearing into the depths of the ocean, Tomcats vs Backfires, made for a very compelling part of the story, more so than the land war. The whole point of the invasion of Iceland is to setup for this battle, it's a major part of the story. WIll the Soviets cut off NATO from North American supplies?
Just one point, I just reread Red Storm Rising, and the justification they give for the lack of WMDs in this conflict is that a bunch of Warsaw Pact states straight up tell the Soviets they're not cool with their countries being left uninhabitable.
I dont think its realistic, but maybe the authors had the increasing auonomy of the Warsaw Pact Nations in mind when they wrote this.
Non Soviet Warsaw Pact constituted a third of the Soviet's military strength. During peacetime it was pretty trivial for the Soviets to force through doing things the way they wanted but during a war I'd imagine the satellite states would have a little better bargaining power.
To be fair I think they just wanted to write a conventional war and not have to deal with the spicy stuff.
So I admit I’ve reread this book a number of times. You guys got a number of things wrong about my beloved book but you guys still did a great job with the commentary.
I appreciate that! Looking back, I think we went way too hard into criticisms about the "plausibility" of the Soviet Union's war justification. Recent events have shown that war in Europe can start for the dumbest of reasons. Just because it's not rational, doesn't mean it's not plausible.
And we didn't spend enough time praising the things it did right. I'm still proud of this episode, but if we could go back and do it again, I'd do it a little differently.
Red Phoenix from Larry Bond is pretty good too, Korean War 2 electric boogaloo
You guys should do Red Army, it’s a NATO-Soviet War from the Soviet perspective
Got the book
So, reason behind the 116th Panzer Divisions jump in name:
So, German 16th Infantry Division, after the Fall of France, it was motorized and split in 2. 1 part had an added tank regiment and became the 16th Panzer Division (first to reach Stalingrad), the rest formed the 16th Motorized Division.
And then later in the war, the 16th Motorized was upgraded to an armored division. To carry over the traditions of the unit, it was named the 116th Panzer Division.
Thats not 100% air tight, but...thats the best I got from what I know.
Love this book, thanks fir taking the time to do this,
Quick point on your grief with the motivations, the people that decided to go to war lost one third of their country's fuel and were attempting to buy their continued personal power with the lives of their citizens...so for politicians, not unlikely
the whole "ghost rider" thing is very interesting when you figure that no one, outside the military, knew what the F-117 was when the book was written.
33:13 Showing M48 Patton's as he says they didn't use M48's XD
For real, both the Germans and Americans used M48's in Patton. The British used the M24 Chaffee.
Red storm rising was a Larry Bond book. The only thing Clancy had any input on was the Iceland part. If you ready ANY Larry Bond book this becomes painfully obvious. It follows the same formula as pretty much all of his other books. Clancy's name was put on the cover only for marquee appeal after the success of Hunt for Red October.
I was working in India on work experience when they got ride of the 500, 1000 notes. It was mild chaos no one had cash for like 3 months , there were massive ques to deposit the old notes in the bank and even roots took 4 months before it got back to normal. It was such a mess because they have 3 hour notice and didn't even tell the banks. Had to wait for 1 hour to get 25 pounds worth of rupees because there was a 25 daily limit
Made worse by only refilling the cash points every 2weeks after it would be emptied in a day
24:40
From my understanding, the most accurate tank rounds nowadays are fin-stabilized, and apparently those don't work with rifled barrels, leading to the strange situation where rifled tank cannons are no longer the accurate option
It's less that SABOT doesnt work with a rifled barrel, it's that they are velocity dependent for their effect...the UK still use rifled barrels so they can use HESH at longer ranges, where SABOT is less effecter.
I always like how you guys insert pictures of jokes you make into the video, gives me a laugh
Thank you! There's going to be several photoshops I'm pretty proud of in the next episode.
I don’t know how you guys don’t have more subscribers. It’s amazing to me how much useless you guys know. You guys are so fascinating to listen to. I hope the videos keep coming.
I served in an Army reserve unit whose mission (should the NATO scenario Red Storm Rising was based on happen) was to fly to Reykyavik and defend the radar and SOSUS networks from Russian Marines/VDV Airborne forces. Iceland was our eyes on the entire north Atlantic. Our units annual exercise was to fly to Keflavik and force March, under fire, all the way to Reykjavik. Royal Marines played the Soviet Marines and a German unit simulated VDV. We took the mission seriously because the Brits and Germans had skin in the European game.
You say it is an absurd notion they would do that than just buy oil, but they damn near poisoned a major piece of Europe without asking for help in Chernobyl.
The main battle tank does everything. It's anti-tank, it's anti-materiel, it's anti-personnel, it's anti-EXISTENCE!!!!!!
It's anti-anti-tank too
Love to see you guys talk about another Cold War gone Hot but staying conventional with the game World in Conflict.
Hi, Had fun listing to this. I think its almost 20 years ago that I read the book. I read it in Swedish so perhaps they mistranslated some things. But I remember that I enjoyed the book. But as you guys mention the reason for invading the west and destroy NATO and then to invade the middle east for oil is so silly. They could have come with a better reason for it. IIRC Able Archer was close to trigger a war between the WP and NATO. But it was only a command post exercise.
Regarding the best tank during WWII it think in all around I think it was some of the Sherman models that where the best tanks. And there were so many of them at least in the mid to later part of the war.
You guys really misunderstand the whole point of this book, they never meant to have an actual War with NATO, it was being used as a distraction you might want to read it again
@@willisix2554 It is explicitly stated that "NATO must be destroyed." It's not a distraction, it's an attempt to preempt retaliation.
@@vaclavjebavy5118 obviously you didn't read ir understand the story
@@willisix2554 I read it, it's clear the Soviets attack NATO hoping they can prevent any retaliation against their campaign in the Middle East. To call it a "distraction" is really silly. They were hoping to split apart NATO politically so they wouldn't stop them getting their oil.
talkernate history talking about WW1 balloon busting in a WW3 video love it.
You changed the way you say “history in general” and my disappointment is immense and my day is ruined
the PC video game Red Storm Rising was great in simulating the modern submarine warfare against e.g. Soviet carrier groups...
You guys should 100% do an episode on Fear, Loathing and Gumbo. It's loooong, but imo the single best piece of alternate history made
Damned, I have this book,I'll be back in a week once I finish the bastard.
EDIT:Nah I can read that later, just lemme go through this real quick.
SO HAPPY TO SEE YOU GUYS POSTED
Always excited when you guys make videos hopefully this is not the last before the Corona virus kills us all
40:49 I love how RUclips and AI or DCS renderings of the book and it's narrated passages give the the wonderful characters of Clancy's book like the Japanese heritage fighter Buns pilot, New Life and Love by fans
Great guys. Tomorrow is my math exam and you upload another episode of my favourite podcast.
Guess that's one hour less of studying.
Well, they also said that they just plain didn't have enough money to buy the amount of oil that they would require. Some might mistakenly think that the idea of, say, Soviets invading Iran was never an idea taken seriously -- but that is wrong. Those in doubt should examine "The Crisis Game," by the Kennedy School of Government, and that is something you can now ee on RUclips. I remember that I saw it on VHS in college.
Regarding chemical weapons, there is a whole detailed chapter about why, at the end, the Soviet donìt use it. But when things go South the Politburo orders the use of nuclear weapons just fine. It is not true that the Soviet don't want to use them.
Bradley is and is not an armored personnel carrier. It's considered a IFV or infantry fighting vehicle. Just as the BMP and BMD are considered the same.
If you liked the 'nitty gritty tactical crap', you might consider taking a look at Michael Palmer's "The War that Never Was". It's a very similar premise: the Soviets invade Europe in the late-80s. However, it takes a different approach to portraying it.
For one, it takes a much 'harder' approach to the conflict; no fake aircraft or unfeasible soviet invasions of Iceland. It's also a lot broader. It takes very little time covering the fighting in central Europe, leaving that to the huge amount of books that came before it. It uses those pages instead to develop many other fronts, like Scandinavia and the Balkans, as well as the Mediterranean with its fighting between Syria and Israel, and diplomatic efforts between the US and Egypt and the USSR and Libya. The US bombs Vietnam while North and South Korea whack at each other. The US and Japan take on the Soviet Pacific Fleet. It even touches on a dilemma with Castro, who doesn't declare war when the rest of the fighting kicks off.
It makes the war feel like a "World War", which is something neglected by a lot of its peers. The cause and end of the war are left unexplained, which is a tad silly, but allows it to avoid some of the pitfalls of similar fiction.
It isn't perfect. The prose, while adequate, isn't amazing and the fighting is a lot more tell than show. Characters take a backseat to the conflict. Few show up repeatedly, and while characterization isn't completely lacking, it's very rare, and is used to service the conflict rather than the other way around.
It probably isn't the best choice to read if the technical military drivel of Red Storm Rising was a bit heavy for you, but it's still a pretty great book. It makes the war feel like a real event whereas Red Storm Rising often feels like a contrived set-piece, which is funny, because the World War III in The War that Never Was is actually an elaborate in-universe wargame.
This sounds very interesting! Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Is a Russian invasion of Iceland really unfeasible?
It had no real military, it had a single USAF F-15 squadron (not even a full strength one) based there and a small USAF/USMC/US Army presence to handle base security. A mechanized battalion after multiple missile strikes would be able to take it.
@@pogo1140 It's extremely impractical and risky. The weather has to be good or the invasion force can't land. The landing force will have to stay under the radar. I'm not too familiar with maritime regulation, but Iceland isn't really on any major shipping lanes, and I would be surprised if a large soviet merchant vessel showing up wouldn't raise any red flags.
More importantly than all that, however, is that the war needs to be a surprise for NATO. It won't take too long for the US to fly in the 187th infantry, and it'll take time to spin up this hypothetical landing force. There's an extremely short time-frame that the landing could possibly happen, and it's completely impossible under more probable circumstances.
Finally, if the invasion is successful, the soviets now have a bunch of troops stuck on an island with some unusable airstrips far away from possible of resupply. Not a useless gesture, but they'll be rooted out and the airfields will be back to hosting NATO aircraft before too long.
Unrelated to the feasibility argument is that the soviets didn't plan on recreating the convoy attacks of the two previous world wars. Without those Iceland is pretty useless.
Note: I don't have my copy of RSR anymore and it's been a while, so forgive any misrecollection on my part.
@@alittoralgecko4562 Iceland has regular sea traffic going past it and into it.
It would be back in US control if they can land something there.
Problem would be getting past the Backfire swarm that would be hitting any troop ships that try to get within 200miles or 10hrs from the island.
These bombers would be protected by MiG-29's which in the scenario were flown to Keflavik as soon as the airfield was captured. Also at Keflavik were the mobile SAM's which along with the MiG's immunize the Russian occupation force from US bombers and strike aircraft.
As far as unusable runways, the MiG-29 can operate out of a taxiway or the service road.
@@pogo1140
Again, the soviets would have a difficult time getting anything landed on Iceland before the reservists arrive. The Soviets will have to get its amphib troops and landing craft loaded up in the Barents sea and shipped on a multi-day journey to Iceland. It'll be a lot quicker to fly some guys with rifles from Maryland to Iceland, which was the US' plan. This only possibly works if the Soviets anticipate the war a good week before it happens and the US doesn't detect any buildup or otherwise makes no preparations of its own. If it were that easy the Soviets would have no problem reaching the Rhine.
In no way would we see soviet aircraft being operated from Iceland. Getting the additional personnel, supplies, and munitions necessary to operate a meaningful amount of aircraft out of Iceland, nearly 1400 miles away from any supply lines, would be impractical.
The US would missile any airstrips, fuel dumps, shelters. It's an easy fix when you have plenty of support personnel at the airbase, but this would be in the center of hostile territory.
Any aircraft the Soviets put on Iceland would be practically giving the kills to NATO when they sortie one or two times, run out of missiles, can't take off because there's no fuel, and marines retake the island.
And yeah, while a Mig-29 might be able to operate off of a taxiway, the aircraft bringing supplies and reinforcements aren't so lucky.
Taking Iceland makes sense as it's radar can provide early warning of backfire raids into the North Atlantic and planes based out of Keflavik would be able to intercept those Backfires. And the fear of a massive raid like that in the book is just the scenario is why the Navy built the F-14 and the Aegis ships.
BTW, resources, the denial of access to resources like oil, tin, scrap metal are why Japan went to war.
Iraq invaded Iran over a disputed oil field, Iraq invaded Kuwait because of a dispute over unpaid loans.
And the idea behind the limited war is the same for the US, we wanted to keep any war in Europe to a limited conventional war.
We did not want to attack Moscow directly for fear of escalating to a full on nuke exchange.
Talkernate History, can you guys do an episode about Robert Harris's Fatherland? It doesn't go into that much detail about how history diverged, but it does go into great detail describing a Europe ruled by Nazis, and I think it's probably the most realistic alternate WW2 novel I've personally read. Would love to hear your take on it!
That's definitely on the short list. We'd probably do the book and movie as one episode.
Awesome! Thnx!
I'd also suggest The Man with the Iron Heart by our favorite author Harry Turtledove.
Have you guys ever covered Ian Slater's World War III series?
It starts off as a somewhat interesting WW3-in-the-1980s in the first couple books, but the series really starts to run out of steam toward the end of seven books, and I don't recall if the war is actually completely resolved. Then starting 8th book the series, while still titled as part of the WW3 series and still featuring a main character named Douglas Freeman, seems to become a bunch of standalone novels.
Keep up the good work! I definitely always looking forward to the next episode.
Y’all sound like the friends I was hoping to find in high school. But even among the nerds I was a little too much. Oh well. Subbed and will watch more.
25:24 YA GUYZ!!!!!! How many times do I gotta tell ya?! The Medal of Honor is NOT a competition! You don't WIN it! You EARN it for valorous conduct above and beyond the call of duty!
Hey if your interested, Maybe you can make us write some short alternate history stories and you review them. It's like a meme review but for alternate history.
I got an idea, going to take a lot of reading but it's well worth it. Okay for what might be the ultimateWWIII story, we start with red storm Rising, it talks a lot about the Naval aspects and Air Force parts, then you read Team Yankee(Harold Coyle) which deals with the ground aspect especially the armor, then you move on to Red Army(Ralph Peters) which deals with the Soviet Ground Force view of the war and to wrap it all up, you read the Third World War August 1985( General Sir John Hacket) which is an overview of World War 3 told afterwards. So, what do you guys think?
There is also the game Cold Waters, the spiritual successor to Red Storm Rising, the game. It is not as in depth and is more accessible to players new to submarine combat or late cold war machines of war.
There’s a story online made in the spirit of RSR. Check out The Kidd Incident.
And there’s the upcoming Sea Power: Naval Combat in the Missile Age that builds on that game a great deal including Tu22Ms
SEA POWER. I'm so excited for that game@@foggyh1425
Great episode. A few things. Spoilers follow. 1. Iceland was a legit target for the USSR because it was the middle piece of the GIUK gap which supported the SOSUS line. This was a sonar line acting as a tripwire across the North Sea. 2. The guy trapped on Iceland with the Marines - Edwards? - doesn't really do too much Red Dawnish stuff, though the Soviets *think* that's what they're doing, with one exception when they tangle with some Russian soldiers who have just killed some civilians. The side plot with the Icelandic girl was perhaps a bit much. Maybe Clancy had a crush on Bjork once upon a time. 3. I think the oil refinery that is destroyed is supposed to be near Manhattan-sized, hence the reason its destruction is so crucial. 4. Clancy more or less copied Hackett's WW3 scenario in "The Third World War". In Hackett's book, the Soviet plot to attack the West is based more on 70's geopolitics: the impression of Western weakness around the world and Soviet supremacy in ground equipment, coupled with some dastardly Soviet meddling - South Africa goes up in revolution as does Mexico - emboldens the Politburo into believing that Western Europe can be cowed if West Germany is swallowed up. Hackett was trying to raise awareness of what he perceived as critical shortcomings of NATO and the UK armed forces. Also, his WW2 experience shows: Britain is attacked from the air - conventionally - the same way it was attacked by the Germans in the Blitz years. I would love to see you guys cover Hackett's book BTW. However, where Hackett depicts the war going nuclear, Clancy does not. Coyle, writing Team Yankee, does Hackett's war point for point including the same nuclear targets. Clancy does give a pretty good reason why chemicals are not used, however [fear of the GDR dropping out of the war if chemical fallout caused huge civilian losses on the 'wrong' side of the border]. Coyle and Hackett have the cork on chemicals fully popped. Short version: Hackett's book pretty much set the template for WW3 stories in the 80's. 5. Finally, about the oil and the nukes: the ending is I suppose a little silly since the West immediately agrees to sell the Russians the oil they needed in the first place. But, FWIW, it's a new non-Soviet government. The young Turks in the Politburo and the Army refuse to resort to nuclear weapons. When the revelation about the Kremlin plot becomes more widely known, the Army actually removes the Soviet government; so, technically, it's a new ball game where the post-Soviet government negotiates the peace, like how Wiemar negotiated the end of WWI.
To add to your first point, of which all are great, Iceland was also taken as a way to ensure the Backfire raids into the Atlantic would be mostly trouble free from fighter intercepts. The first strike by them and the Badgers is a great example of drone use and BVR engagements. That first convoy got smashed because of it.
@@kellysmith1144 Thank you!
Would you guys do one about the Turtledove series about the war that came early? I just read it and it seems not even plausible with some of the things that happen in it.
Honestly last Blood was much better than most think, in fact the biggest problem Critics have with it is that it's "racist" to Mexicans, even though it was meant to show how terrible of a situation it was down there, trust me I've met Mexicans who and other people who have been in cartel dominated cities and they were all like "it's about as racist as black panther."
One of the best books I have ever read. I was absolutely destroyed at work for a few days as I read it all in about 2 days and nights. Literally couldn't put it down and got about 2 hours sleep for 2 nights in a row! I have read it twice and I have the audibook as well and have given that a few listens.
Remember doing the same thing in high school when this book came out
@@andrewpizzino2514 great minds think alike. It really is a stunner! Shame there was never a film, but it probably would have cost all the money in the world to have made and done the book justice.
@@vxrdrummer The submarine scenes were thrilling. Got a kick out of the fact that a book could be so exciting.
To be perfectly fair, they mention multiple times in the book, that members of the Politburo say the plan is absurd. It's just that the army is convinced that asking for help from the west would (Probably rightfully so) put them in the pocket of the west. I didn't seem to find the scenario all together that off topic for the late stages of the Soviet Union. Also a lot of the things, like the hover craft barges and stuff, are all actual Soviet plans for invasion. I don't know I guess I just didn't find it absurd. Also, the missiles, naval warfare now is actually almost all missiles. The F-19 was the fake Stealth Fighter that someone at Testors invented to sell models that everyone claimed was the REAL stealth fighter. So it's not based off the F-117, it's just something the Pentagon said existed that totally didn't.
Don't screw with 50 Kingfish (AS-6). Snark all you want but that Russian strike was totally bad news.
Agreed, the first raid made a serious mess of that convoy. Showed good use of tactics and BVR, too.
I don’t know if there’s necessarily that much to dig into for an episode but if you guys are familiar with the game World in Conflict it’s almost a similar premise to this, about a NATO vs USSR world war in Europe and the US in 1989/ early 1990. It’s a really good game
You did a Kaiserreich episode. Now, you've gotta do a Fuhrerreich episode.
I am for Führerreich episode!
was my first book i read from Tom Clancy, and have reread it twice since then, i bought it back in 89 while deployed in Germany. before wall came down. was great read.
I thought that, for the submarine warfare portion of the book, that the Soviets' quality of HK subs were evidence of decline. This book, Hunt for Red October, and Debt of Honor are my favorites.
I need to read those. The only Ryanverse book I've read is Rainbow Six (because of the video game).
Next idea for talkernate history episode idea the 2020 commission on the North Korean nuclear attack upon the United States
Awesome! I just got the book as a Christmas gift and it’s awesome seeing this video! Thanks guys! SSN is also pretty decent too!
29:30 this is actually a soviet thing
I think they called it the fraternal kiss and you would hug while doing it
They actually had to get people to stop doing it because in big meetings it took so long for everyone to kiss each other that there was little time for the actual meeting
Do you have a source for that because that sounds super interesting to know more about
Your criticism of the plot didnt hold up well in 2022 with Russia invading Europe, now did it?
Note that generally in wargaming, as was done for this book by all accounts, particularly with the rules written in the 70s & 80s the side which first uses NBC weapons is penalised so heavily the generally lose, which is why they aren't used in this scenario.
11:12 The Soviets still used somewhat tank destroyers (BDRMs mounted with ATGMs) and still do somewhat with the 2S25 Sprut-SD
They say "vampire" because the incoming missiles show as a 'v' on radar displays
"Four Azerbaijani Guys" sounds like a Eurasian Restaurant with excellent Rice dishes.
All of our Patreon Piastres going towards buying an SSN in the future?
Wrong, they are getting a reproduction ME263 on back order. Some company in Europe I believe is actually doing this, no guns though.
According to Wikipedia, Nizhnevartovsk is one of the wealthiest cities in Russia thanks to Western Siberian oil.
EDIT: Because of this, if the nearby refinery was destroyed like it was in the story, the Soviet economy would be cleaved at the knees.
I don't know if this has been recommended to you guys before, but you should try to get your hands on a copy of If It Had Happened Otherwise. There's quite a few good stories in there that I'd love to hear you guys talk about. Anyways, love your show!
Only a month in between episodes? My lord is that legal?