The Russell Moore Show - David Brooks Explains How Evangelicalism Lost Its Mind
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- “Are the times we’re living in really as crazy as they seem?”
This is the first question that Russell Moore has for David Brooks, a New York Times op-ed columnist, author, and commentator. Brooks’s recent column “The Dissenters Trying to Save Evangelicalism From Itself” details some of the unsettling, disheartening events within evangelicalism over the past few years and highlights several individuals who are trying to forge a different path.
On this episode of The Russell Moore Show, Brooks and Moore discuss many types of people that “evangelical” can describe. They talk about the difficulties of resisting the climate of the times. And they talk about what politics are meant to do and be.
00:00 Opening
00:31 Introducing David Brooks
01:03 Are the Times as Crazy as They Seem?
06:30 Moral Loneliness
10:34 Politics Can't Give You Love
15:38 Conservatism and Identity Politics
20:33 Cultural Power in Coastal Elites
24:55 Modern Leftism
30:02 Civil War and Political Violence
34:59 Future of the Evangelical Church
“The Russell Moore Show” is a production of Christianity Today
Chief Creative Officer: Erik Petrik
Executive Producer and Host: Russell Moore
Director of Podcasts: Mike Cosper
Production Assistance: CoreMedia
Coordinator: Beth Grabenkort
Producer and Audio Mixing: Kevin Duthu
Associate Producer: Abby Perry
Theme Song: “Dusty Delta Day” by Lennon Hutton
"Men never do evil so cheerfully and so completely as when they do it from religious conviction." Blase Pascal
Fyi. This is a bad mistranslation of Pascal’s french. He says nothing about “religion” in the original, but “un faux principe de conscience.”
@@iPUB_org religion can be a false principle of...
And the best at hate are those that preach against it
@@roughhabit6496 Matthew Shepard's family says hi.
Then, they are NOT Christians, they are no different from you.simple. Sorry.
If churches are going into politics, they must start paying taxes on that prime property!👍🏼
aAl laws should be obeyed. if a Church or let's say a President or his son breaks the law, Jail.
IF Churches are breaking a law they should be punished. But as of now they are not, again simple. Cheers
Churches, religion have been involved in politics forever. In Europe, they lost their high status due to the ascension of science. They have been in mourning ever sense and are eager to get it back. Religion is about power and control. Politics is their bedpartner.
Churches should not get special religious zoning, which greatly reduces their properties' official worth.
Religious businesses, including churches, should pay taxes at the same rate as all businesses. They're selling a service like fortune tellers and palm readers do.
Governments in the US can't Constitutionally target religion with higher tax rates, but it is ridiculous that the IRS and states' revenue departments let them pay 0 taxes. The IRS supposedly has a rule that involvement in politics will cause a church to lose its 0 tax status, but they never enforce it, even though there are egregious examples of churches being involved in politics.
(Romans 13:1-5) [1]- Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. [2]- Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. [3]- For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. [4]- For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. [5]- Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
@@DwayneShaw1 I don’t even know where to start. The Bible says a lot of things…appropriate for a dictatorship or a Monarchy. US is a democracy. We vote on things. The Bible tells us how we should beat our slaves, that we can rape a young virgin as long as we pay her owner some silver. We can kill children that disobey parents, homosexuals, and people that wear clothes made of more than one fiber. And many other things that thinking individuals would never live under. The Bible has some good parts, but I don’t know of anyone that ever lives by them. The Republican Party certainly does not.
An old man’s advice to people who feel like they have no friends: Go out and help someone who is struggling. Say “Hi” to the old lady at the grocery store (It may be her only human contact that day). Volunteer. Find other people who enjoy what you Like doing.… Don’t sit back and wish the world were a different place. Don’t give up. Never give up.
Great advice David!
😅Here another idea David. 1st. Quit ID r notifying w its parties. Get back to issues and morals. I']] bet you can't tell me what it means to you to return conanservative. Set human related goals and values and argue about them. Put a common govt and constitution in the middle. Provide better tools for discussing issues. 😅go back to issuing and discussing platforms.
I have lived among evangelicals… they talk about how to get right with God, but if you don’t see their perspective they look down on you, pretend to be nice but are very clannish and are NOT open hearted. Their insincerity made me very uncomfortable. It’s their way or the highway… no thanks, I’m much happier amongst a varied group with varied ideas.
I'm with you 100%. They are NOTHING like the jesus they claim to love (rather, the jesus they claim loves THEM!) . One can't buy-bull like that.
Don’t throw the baby (Jesus) out
with the bath water.🙏🏻
Agree
@@annebalderston2520 Jesus is an abstraction.
"God" walked the earth for 30 years ? And then for 1 or maybe 3 years left behind some followers who seemed to have a tough time figuring out "his" message ??
That IS something to throw out.
Baby jesus and santa are just stories to sort out the naughty and nice, the repentant and sinners. Religion is a way for nice talking sales people to convince people to feel good and feel good about buying their product. The snake was the first huckster and it's been snakes in pulpits ever since.
@@annebalderston2520 I don’t have a problem with Jesus… I have a problem with hypocrites
"Crazy has become a church growth strategy." ....yup! Nailed it.
To be fair, crazy has always been the church's growth strategy. It's just more obvious nowadays.
@@AbbeyRoadkill1 yup!
Well...it's a religion that includes a taking donkey, a man who lived in a fish, and a god that sacrifices itself to itself to save us from itself.
The crazy is built-in.
It always has.
Remember MW a church is NOT the same as the people in it.
If a church uses crazy as you say, then those that stay in it are NOT Christians. Simple.
Popes, Pastor, Churches mean nothing, if they don't follow the Bible.
"It is a lot easier to say the sin is over there than to say the sin is in my heart" Bingo! You nailed it Mr. Brooks.
Romans 3:23
the more I hear people say "we're not like that" or "it couldn't happen here" I become more and more convinced that it will happen here
We are heading in a horrible direction... because when the neo confederate Christian Nationalists seriously take control of the country... America as we know it will crease to exist...
...did happen, and continues.
It's happened before, to LGBTQ+ people and POC, especially BIPOC
These two clowns are part of the enabling crowd who are helping to make it happen by just watching and talking while getting paid to do both.
Have you actually been listening? Look beyond the personalities of the messengers, and contend with the message. Things 40:17 aren’t always cut-and- 40:17 dry. Serious issues require dialogue and back-and-forth dialogue. Be glad you now live in a place where you don’t have to fight in order to engage in this process.
The take-away isn’t how much you disagree with what they’re saying; is about learning from it. If you have something better to offer, go for it. That sure beats ad hominem to shreds.
As a lifelong atheist and a liberal, I found this discussion to be informative, encouraging, and thoroughly engaging. Thank you for posting it and making it public. There is much about religion that I deplore, but I admire religious people like the two of you who speak frankly and intelligently about these subjects that have become so unnecessarily delicate
You admire people who believe things which have zero basis in fact?
I agree! I am also an atheist listener and I’m so pleased with this intelligent and thoughtful discussion on the state and future of evangelicals.
@@ajra4626 What fact? Gice me the best fact that any gods exist.
@@sandersson2813 Looking for attention are you: its amazes me when you all lead with... "I'm white" or "I'm an atheist" no one cares.
@@LisaLisa-qo8gt Who does that?
Why do do you want to follow this crap? That's all im asking. The bible is demonstrably false, so how can you believe it?
No, Brooks misses it. This has been growing for decades. Conservative talk radio and Fox News have been mixing religion and politics for profit forever. Sarah Palin unleashed it a bit, but Trump allowed them to go completely where conservatives had always wanted. Repeatedly you hear them say that Trump says aloud what they think privately. Covid/masking is just another topic for them to generate false anger and community on. Anger has a psychologically motivating effect and if a pastor is willing to serve it up, there are people who want to hear it.
Fuxx news suxx like stormy Daniels on a date with trp.
When John "gook bomber" McCain claimed to be pro-life during the debate with soon to be President Obama at Saddleback Church (after cheating and listening to the questions ahead of time), this was another beginning of the lies used by christians to push an agenda. The bible says NOTHING about abortion. Yet, judges were manipulated onto the Supreme court and lied about stare Decisis. Some moralists...they can just claim to repent...or as catholics, go to confession .. and they think they will go to heaven with Brooks and Moore, while they are certain many of us will burn for eternity because we don't beLIEve silly books.
@@bernardbober7300 I used to believe that giving a child some religious education so they have some foundation of morality was a good idea. Now I don’t think of evangelicals as Christian nor do I think they have the best interest of others in mind. It’s more about controlling others and pushing their religious ideology including their prejudices and political conservatism onto young minds. Social media is not good for people. It’s easy for anger to escalate among total strangers simply through what they have posted online. Tribalism is everywhere in the a Republican Party. Any cost is worth it to them to get their way including overthrowing democracy. Rule of law is dead to Republicans. That’s a pretty scary thought. Trump’s Big Lie comes to mind. Can’t accept the truth? Just lie instead.
Agree
@@NSOcarth I don't see that you've provide convincing arguments countering anything I've stated.
I appreciated the conversation. As a Christian, I have been so disillusioned with the lack of reasoned thinking, constructive conversation, and alignment with those that seek division rather than kindness and compassion among fellow Christians that I have been staying away from my church since COVID started. Feeling somewhat lost. 😞
Seek truth outside of religion.
I hear ya Fritz! I have so few people to talk to nowadays cause so many have fallen under the spell of right wing conspiracy nuttery. The things that are very much missing from this picture are love, joy, meekness, kindness, self control etc.
Yes, the politicizing of the Gospel
by conservative evangelicals has
caused many of us to feel dis-
connected and uneasy. I think we
really need to stay in prayer and stay close to the Lord. “If my people, who are called My Name
will humble themselves and pray
and turn from their wicked ways…”
God bless you, fellow believer.🙏🏻
@@annebalderston2520 I simply don't engage with anybody who starts going off about this stuff. For the sake of my own mental health, I shut them down immediately. On Saturdays it's even easier. I have a rule: No politics on the Biblical Sabbath. That's God's time. All this hate and fear stems from people taking their focus off truly loving God and their neighbour.
Me too Fritz. I shook my head at churches shunning masks and deliberately resisting ordinances that were designed to protect people when we didn’t have all the Information about the spread of covid-19. I was very disappointed in the Christian community. They haven’t improved I’m afraid and continue to follow conspiracy theories even deeper. Very disheartening.
I am amazed at how I can agree with David on so many fronts and disagree with him on so many others. I do admire his thoughtful mind and his good heart.
It just means your so similar to a good introspective person
Two things: “We will tell you how you live” not how Christ tells Christians to live and “We love the prosperity gospel” not Christ’s message of it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter Heaven. These two things have severely compromised Evangelical Christianity’s message.
As a lifelong "liberal" Christian, my perception is that there is conservative Christianity, and there is a pseudo-Christian cult that calls itself evangelical; and that cult is eager to be conflated with honest conservative Christianity. It preaches prosperity gospel and "never mind reading the Bible, I'll tell you what it says, just believe everything I say."
And I think it's going to do serious damage to the legitimate church, because even within liberal Christianity, not everybody understands that the cult and conservative Christianity are two different things.
Very good observation. Seeking greed in the name of religion, and patronizing others to give themselves legitimacy and higher moral ground. It’s so obscene people can’t see right through them. Just like Trump calls others stupid and dishonest. 🤨
@@freedomlife3623 You guys are right. I was reading how Jesus talked about the rich, in James 5. And I was amazed how displeased he was with the rich and he said how corrupt they are. One thing he spoke against was low unfair wages, how they weren’t doing their part in society. I had to read it again, because the GOP stress small government when it comes to requiring companies to pay a living wage. But it shows they aren’t following Christ example, because he also said to whom much is given, much is required. So Joe Machin and McConnell thought the workers were the problem, but Christ said the Rich were the problem. Lastly, Jesus paid taxes, he didn’t hide it like the rich does in some overseas account or wherever it’s hidden!
David Brooks is one of my favorite conservative commentators. I'm a bleeding-heart liberal, so that's saying something. I agree more with Jonathan Capehart (on PBS) but Brooks is very intelligent and thought-provoking. He's a mensch. Glad I found this vid. I see in the comments that there are a lot of us who feel the same way.
Brook's is the " 'blind guy' begging outside the bank being robbed, who is actually the lookout man". There is nothing noble about an enabler who helps the hard of thinking ignore reality by pretending "his party" has nice ideas.
“ The principle reason for the discontent of our times is that you have been led to believe, by a demagoguery of the left , that the Federal government is going to take care of your life for you”
~ Buckley
I would say that charming civility is one quality David shares with his old acquaintance, the founder of the Conservative movement, but very little else.
David Brooks is a lot of things. A mensch he is not.
Brooks had a role in crushing our middle class so that the wealthy can have even more. He is a propagandist for our robber barons.
@@gheller2261 why not?
I loved this conversation. But I couldn't help but think about what is missing: A discussion of globalization, mechanization, the decline of unions, supply-side economics, and crony capitalism that has led to stagnant wages for 2 generations, lost benefits, job insecurity, income inequality as high as before the Great Depression, all of which has led the U.S. to be the only developed country to have sustained declines in longevity (pre-Covid) due to depression and suicide (mostly driven by working-class white men). I mean, how can you miss that? Add to that minority rule - in every branch of government - and it's no surprise that things are angry and tense.
You hit the nail on the head.
THIS! I would add high maternal and infant mortality as well as vastly unaffordable health care.
The gradual move form local or even regional ownership and employment, to a national or global personnel commodity business is the main thing leading to these downfalls. When your boss has to potentially face the families of his employees in church on Sunday there was inherently more responsibility to be fair with salaries and benefits.
@@MrDjslav5 Excellent point. However, with the coming of the industrial revolution employees were beginning to be used and abused without a thought except to profit. We have lost community.
@@virginiamoss7045 indeed. It’s sad. Been in my neighborhood 5 years and don’t know my immediate neighbors. I keep a clean yard and save hello. But, they can tell I have different politics so I’m somewhat shunned. I would really like to contribute to a safe friendly street atmosphere but hard to do it alone. Still tryin’.
One other moral failing is our unwillingness to take justice as seriously as liberty. Politics is not moral war when we all take justice seriously. Tribalism IS a dangerous place to be. Thank you for this.
The word “justice” has lost its meaning. By this could you possibly mean the lawbreakers should receive their due penalty and that those that achieve excellence should be rewarded?
@@b.reasonable6900 there are thee types of justice :distributive, corrective, and procedural justice.
@finishing well through christ restorative justice. I'm not sure corrective is a fiorm of justice.
David Brooks is an intellectual with a level of understanding of current events in historical context that sheds light on what and why these events are taking place. I appreciate the perspective he brings using rational calmness. I will listen to this again. I have a little more hope for the world.
David Brooks often tells how he is a lucky fool for being where he is because of some breaks he got in life. Remarkably he can now live a good life prattling ideological drivel like preachers and pundits, while engineers, researchers, mechanics, medical folks, etc actually make the world a better place.
@@onedaya_martian1238 "ideological drivel like preachers and pundits" is an opinion you have every right to hold. Although I agree that the professions you listed are critical and necessary, it is philosophers who have driven all major world governments and events. If they get it wrong we end up with Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Fascism, National Socialism, Communism, progressive socialism, and the new Democrat Party. It is a fair claim that none of them have "actually made the world a better place" despite the good work of the professionals you mentioned.
@@2wheelz3504 "new Democrat Party" is a very loud "dog whistle" for an extremist comment. Especially when placed in a list of murderous dictators and other trigger terms. And saying philosophers drive world events in that context is a perversion of what a philosopher is.
The other two alliterative professions (besides preachers an pundits) are pragmatists and politicians. The pragmatists want justice, safety and equal opportunity for all (and hopefully privacy). Politicians want their clan and perspectives to dominate others.
Not sure how making up rules to force 3 incompetent judges to the Supreme court to legalize dark money, overrule privacy laws etc isn't an evil agenda from a group who started 2 seemingly unending, costly wars to get the leader of a homeland attack (and who WAS killed by a surgical strike with no lives lost by one of them thar democrat folks).
Golly I could be talking to one of them replacement theory folks going to clean up a grocery store !!
He maligns the left very frequently with no specificity. Why shouldn’t people receive living wage? Affordable housing,SNAP or healthcare! Conservatives just want power & to inflict misery, cruelty & control, & exercise oppression, suppression of vote! Do you also condone a gun in every hand?
No, David Brooks is the epitome of a person who has created the persona of being an intellectual, but is very simplistic in his thinking and he is wrong on pretty much every issue on which he opines.
I have been a liberal democrat who is theologically classical evangelical, a lonely place to be. Enjoyed this conversation
Glad to hear you have a heart for people. Very Christlike.
By what do you mean " a liberal democrat"?
@@vickimonsour i believe in socialized healthcare and back all the programs that came out of the new deal. I believe the wealthy should pay a fair portion of their income in taxes and I believe that our nation should strive for social and racial justice. I advocate for tuition free colleges
Me too. But I have given up church altogether. Between the God awful Contemporary Christian music that has kicked all the wonderful, inclusive church music to the curb, and the the right wingers shoving all the liberals like Jesus to the curb, I gave up finding a place to belong.
@@sherrybirchall8677 :
I am 69 years young and after an Interstate move, began attending a multi-racial Evangelical Church in July 2021.
The Pastors are very careful not to be "Political" either on or off the Pulpit.
It is difficult to tell what their "Politics" is.
I guess that is a good way to keep the Congregation united, although sometimes you can see potential divisions under the surface over "Hot Button" issues like Mass Shootings and "Gun Control". But those issues never really rise to the "surface".
When I mentioned that the European Union could become a Superpower (as a result of the Russia-Ukraine War), an Assistant Pastor said " He did not get involved in Politics".
I think I mumbled something about Daniel 9:26-27, but felt uncomfortable bringing up the subject of Biblical Prophecy in an environment that was "new" for me.
I am a former evangelical turned atheist so I know how they think and the biblical fault in it. If you believe there is a god and that god has an end time plan; one that will go a particular way and since it is god's plan, no one can change the ending or the timing. But they believe it is their mission to rescue the world and save it from this satan character. the bible says, somewhere, to not waste your time with this. it is a trap of the 'devil'. Your job as a christian is to live like christ... to EVERYONE. Be kind, gracious forgiving and grateful for everything. Let that which is ceasaras, government, be his and just be a good example. but the evangelicals are a warring minded bunch. they were when I was one and they are now. the only thing they are showing the world is christianity is mean controlling and cruel. Ironically, they are doing the atheist's work.
Well said.
The human ego is the real "Satan". Christian ego is the worst.
Though the carnage is lots of collateral damage I am relieved to fathom that before my life ends I may see the end of religion, all religions maybe, forever and ever. What is wrong with humans that they fall for made up stuff like they do? I'll never be able to figure it out.
Michael, if you know enough to know that they are doing it wrong, why aren't you doing it right? Why is not doing it at all a superior alternative?
@@CSUnger It's the only "alternative" based in reality. Your question assumes that religion is a necessity to life; it is not. Atheism is basic life, the default. From there religion and beliefs are made up for unrelated reasons. That makes you divergent; Michael has returned to basic life default.
As a Buddhist, I have to say I found that conversation enlightening
; )
Likewise ♥️🙏🧠💪
Buddhist ? is that better ? 😝
I spent 20 years converting Buddhists to Christianity. Just go back from visiting one of the five churches. What a joy it was for me to see how much they had grown in their faith in God, who created all mankind.
Is your religion a business?
Thank you both for a very satisfying , edifying , high-level conversation that gives me encouragement . May many , many people view this and uplifted, too .
I so agree. I have not gone to church for years now because I’m sickened by the politics that has become part of the preaching, including the Catholic Church.
Reverend Ed Trevors is a REAL Christian! He preaches the true message of the Bible.
Catholics are the worst. Lots of Nazi's were Catholics in Germany. I grew up Catholic and so much changed but not changed. They're too busy not minding their own business for one. My grandfather was a devout Catholic and even donated the money to build a school at his church. I never even knew this until his death. He didn't talk religion or politics even once. I miss old Catholics like him who kept their religion and politics to themselves.
My youngest showed an interest in religion. So we attended regularly. . . and then it happened. It was the start of the Iraq war, the sermon was “God is not red, white, and blue”. Guess what, god IS red white and blue. When those words were spoken, the ground was trembling with movement. People all around were gathering up their belongings, storming out and slamming doors. I started to think of pre-war Germany, but stuck it out to commend the pastor for his much needed work ahead of him. My youngest no longer asked to attend any church.
Same here! I have found my people in this post!!!!❤❤❤
I went to an Evangelical Church for over 20 years, however the message they were teaching when Trump first walked down that escalator, they completely lost their minds. Truth..I walked out one Sunday this mega church started to embrace this con man/ grifter as being some sort of messiah. It was sickeningly broadcast, and then to see to major pastors and them in Garden endorsing him AND THEN caught Covid themselves was terrible. How many older people lost their lives because of them telling the people that Covid was a lie, I totally lost faith in their teaching. Those two pastors made millions of dollars on the backs of people. They need to beg forgiveness of those believers for their lies. For shame. 😡
I aree they have shown their true colors, they have hate for women and anyone who doesn't agree with them.
So you lost faith in Jesus because of the grifters he specifically warned about? Or do you just mean you stopped trusting those particular teachers?
It is not too late to contact your friends from that church and express alternate views. I think plenty of people will become disillusioned when they learn that others have seen through Trumpism.
Covid was and is a lie!!!!! You need to do a lot more research of what went on and is still going on!!
I am so grateful I am part of a faith community that tries to ‘Love God, Love Your Neighbor, Change the World.’
Sadly, they aren’t pouring thru the door post covid but we are holding our own and we have had disenfranchised evangelicals join us !!
Although I do not always agree with David Brooks, I love his intellectual thought and gentle demeanor. I wish there were more people like him in my church.
I’m a retired Presbyterian minister who has always said in 30 years of ministry that prohibiting the use of the word liberal and conservative in the church would change tits culture. You seem locked into analysis within those categories. It is the context and symptom. The problem is deeper. I majored in my PhD at Duke in Moral Theology, and I deeply appreciate the depth of your conversation. I regretfully notice the absence to the way economics trumps morality in your analysis. The book I read says the LOVE of money is the root, and you seem to have ignored it as a primary cause for the manipulations of moral thought of the American Mind (yes, I have read the book, one of my profs favorites). Exposing wealth manipulations (because now they can and do) is essential to a solution. Money has eclipsed democracy, and class division is only the symptom. Sophisticated and prudent manipulation is the proof of a core crisis in Congress, media, and social opinions. I have subscribed. Please have another conversation that focuses on the root of the evil that has always been the threat to democracy in every state of the not-so-united ones. Thank you. Go deeper.
Nice interview! I'm honestly thrilled to see the way that David Brooks has evolved as a sensible, moderating thinker in response to the difficult times that you discuss in this interview. I'm not a conservative republican like him, but I nevertheless see him as a hero.
Same here. I've been following him for years, and feel he's grown as a voice of sanity on many topics. Proof is that I didn't know he was a conservative or religious!
@@donaldspaulding6973 I mostly agree but I don't think he's divested himself of enough right wing baggage yet.
When a "hero" is simply someone with a quaint opinion and quiet voice, the idiots have taken over the asylum.
@@onedaya_martian1238 It's clear you have a self-righteous streak that needs an outlet. The comments section on RUclips must feel good for you. Hope it's also therapeutic.
David Brooks used to flagrantly distort Pres. Obama’s record in order to enthuse the far-right. He is not a journalist with integrity. And if he is an intellectual, he got bought-off by notoriety to schmooze the GOP. I never heard him take responsibility for helping get Trump elected. He simply began clutching his pearls in 2017…
Speaking as one of those atheistic, elitist, University of Chicago-educated. (classical) Liberals, I love seeing this kind of serious conversation between serious thinkers. I'm sure I disagree with at least some of your conservative social views, and I'm probably considerably to your right on economic issues, I find your conversation thought-provoking and interesting. As Ben Wittes might say, "you are great Americans."
Religious folks are not serious thinkers...we don't admire the Egyptian priests who said the pharaoh's were gods and lived forever, rather the engineers who built the pyramids and craftsmen who put their history on the walls.
Today's preachers are leaches who pray on the same superstitious minds that were like those of the past. The real great Americans are the engineers and mechanics who build transportation vehicle's , networks for communications and elecrricity; researchers who cure diseases and the medical people who care for people.
Pundits and talk show "so called" christians (who have nothing in common with their jesus) are no different than hair dye...they are toxic misrepresentations to make things appear supposedly prettier than they really are to fool the gullible.
I studied at the University of Chicago too and served as a missionary planting 5 churches in 3 countries preaching in 2 foreign languages. I did not finish my PhD, but converted Buddhists and communists to Christ. My ministry began by smuggling Bibles into the Soviet Union. I wish I had more intellectual Christian friends in the US, but I have many overseas.
@@NSOcarth I'm a little unclear on the antecedent of the pronoun "you" above. Unless you're criticizing the original video I was responding to, I haven't seen any of my fellow commentators who might warrant such contempt, at least not as evidenced by their comments here.
Although I am an atheist, I do not consider theism, per se, to be evidence that someone lacks "philosophical artillery" (not a phrase I would naturally use, anyway).
A little clarification would be very much appreciated.
Brooks is complaining about cultural leftists (affluent liberals on the coast), but ignore economic leftists (working ppl who want universal healthcare).
He is a favorite conservative among liberals, so there is contradiction from time to time.
He is just a soldier without a gun in the Republican army. Look at the size of his house ... he is a total elitist, with no talent other than cheerleading and trying to make his superiors look good.
LOL what's wrong with universal healthcare? By the way, he cites statistics to show how miserable people have become in the past couple decades (really in the past decade, though he goes back to the early 2000s with one statistic). People were not so miserable before the past decade or two. So we need to look for what happened then. Blaming this all on 'cultural leftists' and stating that the decline happened starting after the 1950s does not gel with the data, including what he presents. He diagnoses the ailment - tribalism, loneliness - but is wrong about how and when this started. The problem, in my view, is America was decimated by endless wars plus the outsourcing of jobs plus the internet. That's what happened. No need to blame 'cultural leftists', we're all at fault, and the problem really lies in our bad decisions regarding war, capitalism, and the internet.
@@jimsykes6843
When Trump came along and even before, David Brooks played uneasy with it, but over the last months I notice that he seems nervous, twitchy and jittery about it, and now he seems to be in with Trump and Trumpism - the basics of it. While he dismisses the nuts, the dangerous people are given a pass. I used to respect Brooks even though I disagreed with him, but no longer. I can barely watch this show, and his new sidekick Capehart is almost as bad though in a different way. I think PBS oughta shut down that show, there is nothing useful here anymore.
Heathcare is a right. It's not a leftist issue. It's a human rights issue. Right wingers don't care about heathcare because the poor have nothing to offer or take. They are reprobate ungodly grifters. Trp is their idol.
When I was in my 20s and 30s, I was very definitely right leaning politically and evangelically. By the time I was in my 50s and 60s, I am definitely left-leaning politically, a pro-life Democrat you might say. And all of me, at all of my ages, I have appreciated these two men speaking truth to both sides. We can treat each other with dignity and be curious and be kind. I am optimistic that we will emerge from this right-or-wrong mentality.
I've had it with the simplistic pro-life POV. It represents a complete lack of understanding of the complexity of the need to not criminalize abortion. Pro-life ppl are clueless about real life.
@@gailthomas115 Religion and policy don't mix. Evangelicals don't even read the buy-bull they are selling.
Same. I find it hard to vote conservative any more. It has become radical and to my thinking crazy nuts. My thinking has always been in the middle Very difficult now. I respect all religious folks and those minorities.
Your story sounds like mine. It was a slow transition. I used to faithfully listen to Rush Limbaugh; then one day, I realized how mean-spirited he was. I saw things in politics, the church, and society that challenged my conservative beliefs. A few years ago my pastor, along with another pastor, had a podcast, and the most important thing I took from it was to live like Jesus. It led me to examine just how Jesus lived, and it was so much more than I'd been taught. My life changed, my political stance changed, and my relationships changed. I know my Christian friends look disapprovingly of me as a liberal, but I can trace my beliefs directly to what Jesus taught and how he lived.
@@lindadodson1586 You never listened to Rush Limbaugh . LOL!
"Became hyperpolitical in the wake of Vietnam and Civil Rights movement"
Those darn hippies were right about Vietnam. They were right about the Civil Rights movement, too. At the end of the day, history is on their side. While their politics as a whole may have been problematic in points, they originally rallied around real kernel issues of importance.
What is the American Right rallying around? The preventable deaths of a few hundred thousand citizens for the beautiful freedom of avoiding vaccines is a small price to pay for "freedom"? Racism? Sexism? Someone made me watch an annoying video about pronouns at work? My son raised by my first wife is a fentanyl addict and I blame Democrats in Washington DC? Donald Trump asked for higher oil prices and now we have them, so that must be Biden's fault? The judgement of history is not going to be kind.
If you look back at the actual protests - I can show you in my own photographs - we were not all "hippies." We were a broad generation of young people traumatized by the assassination of our heroes and sickened by the evil done by our country in our names. I was a Goldwater kid sickened by the racism in the Republican Party (which, after 1964, siphoned off the racists in the Democratic Party) & the Christian Nationalist fanatics, that Senator Goldwater warned us about. And yes, Thank you, We were correct about the big things. Plus, we had a really good time with a strong sense of community, values that guided many of us through creative careers in service and deep friendships many of which have lasted for our lifetimes.
@@joeyfotofr Thank you for adding some down to earth reality. Of course, "those hippies" haunt the imagination of many people in a way that distorts our hindsight. Brooks himself seems to be a bit traumatized by them.
@@ComradeOgilvy1984 Then you, C.O 1984. David Brooks is a decent man, but regurgitating the nonsense about the 60s from the Headlines of the National Enquirer is s disservice to America. We were not only right, we were right for the reason that we had internalized genuine American values. We protested things that were( and sadly are today) destroying America: 1st racism, The inferior slavery lovers faith in the th un-American opinion that white skin makes them superior...; 2nd The global horror & moral monstrosity of the Viet Nam War, which continues to undermine America's credibility today and 3rd Sex. The one thing that Puritanical American will never get right. The see only the "excesses" but they will never understand that excess instructs, where repression perverts. Fascists are obsessed with other people's sex lives. However, when serious analysis is done to their sexuality, they become hysterical. Please read the longer piece below. I'd like to hear what you think of it... Joey Tranchina, Sète France
I think he’s one of the most brilliant minds in the world. He’s calm, kind, and thought provoking.
He's a warmonger. Look it up. Wake up.
A brilliant person who is almost always wrong about pretty much everything.
@@passacorto How about you present evidence, instead of playing your "believe what I say card". I bet you are hard core in the idea that you get to heaven by saying stuff like this...
He’s out of touch with the new Republican Party and can not provide any insight into the MAGA movement. It’s like talking to Bush or McCain.
Let's put a moratorium on always referring to _certain people_ as "brilliant".
It's no longer justified, if it ever was.
The fundamental premise that we as humans must be either "good" or "evil" is inaccurate. Rather we are all a part of Nature, and Nature is neither Good nor Bad, rather it is just Nature. We as individuals and as groups can either steer ourselves in a selfish direction, or we can focus instead in a direction that is congenial to community and society. Brooks is correct when he indicates that politics does not provide the Meaning or Love that religion can provide, which is part of the reason why there must be a separation of Church and State. Beyond that, however, it's also the case that we live in a society where there is a plethora of religious beliefs, and therefore it's just not feasible for any one faith group to be emphasized or shown preference by the government. There must be a hard separation of Church and State, and the Law and the Government must instead rely on universal principles based on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - which are principles that pertain to everyone regardless of whatever their faith group might be.
As for the term "evangelical," it indicates - in its broadest application - a focus on sacred text rather than on church doctrine or on church leadership/hierarchy/clergy. Hence the term "evangelical" initially broadly referred to all of Protestant Christianity. More recently, however, the fundamentalists have misappropriated that term for their own purposes and now use it as a purported differentiation between themselves and the more "mainline" Protestants. Regardless, it should also be recognized that traditional theism is nearing the end of its utility. Traditional theism just doesn't ring true, so to speak, anymore in a world where we now understand our place or position in the universe via Darwinian evolution and other aspects of biology and chemistry and psychology.
Lastly, it is very helpful to remember that the foundations of Democracy emerged from the Radical Enlightenment in Europe, via the work of Spinoza and Diderot and Condorcet and d'Holbach and others, which then was expressed via the works and efforts of Thomas Paine and Jefferson and Franklin and Madison and others. Voltaire, Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, et.al., had little if anything to do with Democracy. Nor did the Church or even Christianity have formative influence on the principles or values of Democracy. Hence the focus for many in today's Culture War in the U.S. to emphasize so-called Christian Nationalism as the proper pathway for the U.S. is a fundamental mistake, for several reasons. Plus it's also the case that Washington and the other founders realized that it was imperative for the central government in Washington to be strong and capable, and for federal law to hold over state law where the two might conflict.
The one who comes from heaven is above all. John the Baptist
@@Logiconfire So many books people are brainwashed to beLIEve. Faith is for the lazy.
Good show! Not too shabby an analysis there. As for your assertion that traditional Theism just doesn't ring true, witness the ever-increasing phenomenon of people in the US identifying more and more as spiritual but not religious.
@@onedaya_martian1238 I'm glad to know that . I won't feel guilty ignoring you when your down and out . I must be focused and strong .
OMG! I am 68 years old and my experience with Evangelicals has been the most negative experiences in my life! Anytime you get people who think they’re right & everyone else is wrong, there’s a huge problem!
That's why it's dangerous to post and read comments after anything on RUclips, Twitter, etc. The actual definition of Hell--the Kingdom of Noise.
They sanctify themselves so they can go out & sin more! And they hate everyone who is not white straight & “christian “!
I do not capitalize christian for a reason.
Cultural power on the coasts? You prefer the willful ignorance. Racism, xenophobia, misogyny & bigotry of the middle of the country? Child marriages? Incest? Poverty, eschew science!
Actually (or unfortunately) it goes far beyond one’s being right or wrong. It’s about POWER and the ability to use it as a cudgel. Do you think some of these “pro-life” persons actually give a rat’s arse about abortion? No, they understand how polarization works, and they’re playing their religious constituency like a cheap violin 🎻
what do you expect them to say? outside Evangelicalism, SCIENCE AND MATH also tells people who study, that "it" is right and every other belief is wrong. Moral relativism doesn't work. Truth is truth. Now, evangelicals need to work or change how they present the truth in love, but sorry, sin is real and without spirituality and morality civilization will not last . Our corrupt society is run by paganism, atheists and people who are not sincere Evangelicals. so whatever your truth, Cynthia, or what solution you believe in IT IS NOT IMPROVING SOCIETY. No, we have to go BACK TO Evangelicalism....WITHOUT TRUMPISM.
I think that changed happened in the 60''s , not so much the 50's. As a teacher for 40 years, some of the changes happened when veterans came back and started teaching, running sports and other programs in high schools. The break down of some kind of discipline in the classroom happened around that time, with protests going from the steps of Berkeley to the high school steps. The idea of a "child centered education" produced a self-centered culture. By the time I retired in 2007, students no longer cared about learning but just grades. Parents did not care if the student learned, they just wanted the student of have a good GPA. I was labeled by parents as a "bad" teacher because I expected the students to study texts, participate in discussion, and actually pass tests. If the student did not pass a test, it was my fault, not the fault of the student who did not study for the test. Good teachers were those who inflated grades. So, these self centered children seem to gravitate to those religious groups that support their self centeredness, which they found in the prosperity gospel and in mega churches. They just want to feel good all the time about themselves. They do not have the idea of working through failure. They just blame others for any failure, the teacher, the government, others, etc.
Your comment should have a thousand likes. People that are not inside K-12 schools simply have no idea how things are now.
I believe you are correct in what you have said. The problem we have is simple to say but hard to manage. That is what is right and what is wrong! There is only a right way of doing things, but that can only happen when we understand both sides.
Problem is “religious” ppl shifted from “I believe this & you believe what you like” to “Since I believe this, you must believe this or you are evil”
We’ve all forgotten that Jesus saved a prostitute bc only God can judge.
Gospel of John, Chapter 8, Verses 10-11: Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She replied, “No one, sir.” Then Jesus said, “NEITHER DO I CONDEMN YOU. GO [and] FROM NOW ON DO NOT SIN ANY MORE."
Religious people are forcing people into belief?
As of this writing there are protestors outside Supreme Court Justices homes protesting, carrying signs, shouting slogans, making firey speeches and in sum the atmosphere is menacing. The Justice's spouses and children are inside feeling the threat and tension. The current administration is not protecting their homes with federal law enforcement.
BLM protestors occupied the streets of major American cities, killed 20 people, wrecked $2,000,000,000 in property damage and the problem is religious people forcing people into their belief system?
My friend, there is no compromise with the wokesters nor is there mercy or understanding for differing points of view in their conception of politics. Liberals in the 70s, 80s and 90s advocated for a neutral public square and we got overrun by wokeness and it's discontents.
Religious and secular people agreed to the false promise. Now look where we are.
Beautiful insight
That condemnation from the pulpit is what gets people to "come to jesus" and then give up their hard earned money to the leacher's who don't have to pay taxes.
Forgiveness is what the father of the prodigal son did, but perversely the NT would have people believe that the father needed a sacrifice and had the "good, innocent son" suffer so that the "bad son" could be "redeemed" in the eyes of the father.
These contradictions are why I don't buy-bull any more. And preachers will claim "its demon talk" if one questions them, they are nothing like the Jesus they claim to follow.
Thankyou for standing up! Russell Moore. Blessings
He hasn’t “stood up” for anything unless you mean he has stood up for the powerful. He loves his NY Times bona fides more than policies which inculcate traditional values.
I feel sorry for Mr. Brooks. His political philosophy is cracking up too. He's a traditional conservative...smaller Government, less taxes, "getting tough" with foreign dictatorships, family values, strengthening alliances, pro-capitalism.
But today, due to a large segment of the Right worshipping Trump and his self-serving "philosophy"...to be a "real conservative", you have to adore and defend a thrice-married gambling tycoon. And due to his financial obligation to oligarchs, he defends a Russian dictator, therefore you have to as well. You have to support a rather liberal idea of Government control of social media because you think you're somehow being "censored" if you violate the ToS agreement. You want Big Government (on the State level) to censor books and control women like the Taliban.
And as well, there is the almost 50 year move by the Republican Party away from Lincoln and Eisenhower on race relations....and towards Lester Maddox and George Lincoln Rockwell. To the point where actual white nationalists are given airtime on Fox News and are considered "mainstream" by the Right.
It drives me crazy when people use Lincoln as a Republican. There was a party switch in American history.... look at the ideology not the name
@@bipslone8880 The Right deny the "Southern Strategy" and the fact that from Nixon on, the GOP dropped its Lincoln/Ike support for civil rights, in order to stay a national party by incorporating the George Wallace Dixiecrats.
One way to shut them down when they try that "The Confederate slave-holders were Democrats" line?....ask them "So why do modern Republicans love to wave the Confederate flag at their rallies?" (They dodge or run away at that point)
Brooks is not a traditional conservative. He is a beltway neoliberal, Gucci loafer wearing leftist who claims to hold certain conservative ideas. A complete phony.
@@bipslone8880 You make a good point. The parties were reversed back then on agenda and practices. I guess if ideology hangs around long enough it tends to move full circle. Lincoln was a liberal. I never felt he was similar to today’s Republicans. The parties have adopted the other parties strategies to reveal today’s moral differences. Interesting point.
@@skylark1250 Ya, Lincoln was a liberal (for his time) but his biggest mistake was taking Andrew Johnson as his vice president because he was the Trump of his time. No American in history has done more damage than him with his crappy Presidential Reconstruction. He is the reason, i believe, the civil war never ended. They just hung up their guns and focused on destroying the federal government from within (The current GOP strategy).
May I suggest picking up a copy of the book "Fantasyland How America Went Haywire - A 500-Year History" by Kurt Andersen.
He eloquently puts the nation's current neo-fascist, post-truth mass psychosis into historical context, and explains the cynical role that the (evangelical) church is playing in the blurring of the lines between reality and illusion in society and politics.
Thank you for the recommendation. I will take a look.
Excellent book. Thanks for putting this information out there.
I’d also recommend “The Faith Risk” which takes a look of the incompetent and dangerous rollout of the Trump administration. Unprepared, arrogant, incompetent, and basically there to destroy the government so privatizing everything would be possible. Threw the Environmental Protection Agency under the bus. Putting inexperienced people in charge. Department heads not showing up for work. Throwing out documents concerning protections they needed to follow but did away with. A stunning breach of ethics. No one could ever say that Trump appointed the right people to run major departments. Scary. Enlightening. A good read that will keep you up nights.
One pastor said in his sermon all Democrats can get out. Leave this church What kind of religious view is this. I find it difficult to attend church. No longer separation of church and state. I go for religion not to hear. A sermon on politics. I stay home and focus on being a better and understanding person
The painting on the wall is really cool.
I don't understand how Brooks says "put aside religion" and then goes right on to talk about our inherently sinful nature.
Perhaps he has the tendency common among evangelicals to say, "Those people who get it wrong have 'religion,' but we who get it right have faith." Seriously, some of them don't consider themselves to have a "religion" because they define religion as a bad thing, a kind of constraint within meaningless rules that keeps people from getting saved by a personal relationship with Jesus. This is, of course, an idiosyncratic definition of what "religion" means, but among themselves, they understand what each other mean by it, and it doesn't sound like a contradiction in terms to claim to reject religion and then use patently religious vocabulary.
what Trish said.
Brooks is Jewish, God is working in him. Just pray
@@lakitawright6003 I don't think you understand my point.
@@trishoconnor2169 Yes, I've observed this. It drives me bananas. Whether they mean this or not, it implies that their beliefs are more legitimate than those of people in other faiths.
Excellent, insightful conversation, wish more conversations like this would happen everywhere.
I do believe Brooks is being a bit too optimistic WRT the possibility of political violence. I think he's absolutely correct that an all-out civil war like 1861-1865, with armies facing each other in pitched battles, is almost assuredly not going to happen. But civil strife very similar to The Troubles in Northern Ireland is entirely possible, perhaps even likely.
Whether that would meet the strict definition of "civil war" or not is debatable, but I think that's actually what people have in mind when they claim to want civil war. They simply want to see violence done upon their enemies. People willing to actually engage in said violence are likely few in number, but those who would cheer it on are, unfortunately, a pretty significant portion of the population today.
Ultimately I think it'll take some horrifically violent event(s) to bring people back from the brink. Only when (otherwise good) people are faced with the reality of where this all leads will they snap back to reality.
I would recommend watch stuff with Frank Scheaffer. He was part of the "religious right" for a long time and then saw the damage he caused and did a 180. He had a recent interview with Christiane Amanpour that I would highly recommend.
@@Lonewolfmike Thanks for this recommendation. I'll check it out. I always appreciate the level of reason in Amanpour's interviews with her guests. Actual discussion, not hyper-partisan rants.
@@janicebreuer3103 Here is the link for the interview. ruclips.net/video/g23UxiJoqX8/видео.html
I am very late watching this, but I was happy to find the title misleading. The title suggests that evangelicals, en masse, have lost their way, but then the actual discussion gets much more nuanced and talks about how some evangelicals have indeed been enchanted with political forays but many others are simply continuing to act with the same defined intent that evangelicalism has meant for a long time.
One of the best, grace-oriented, discussions of current events that I’ve heard in recent years.
We need a new cosmology. Seriously. Instead of regressing to older practices we need to develop new practices appropriate for our times, technology, and unique challenges.
So true. You start something new and the people will come. ; )
@@NSOcarth Your ability to communicate in an uplifting way is stunning.
I would like to call myself a conservative, but in today's America I can't, since to most conservatism is synonymous with the Republican Party. In this video I hear a self-critical soul searching which reflects a sense of conservatism that is wholly separate from Republican partyism. Perhaps I have a way forward.
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On some level and in different ways, a lot of us are either suffering, vulnerable or exploited. Some people act as if they’re the *only* ones getting a raw deal and that *they* don’t deserve to suffer, unlike those who look/worship/live differently. It never occurs to them to find fault with an unjust system or blame the gluttons at the top of the food chain.
We need less ego, more empathy.
I just posted this conversation as a true look at the needs of our future with politics and religion. This endorsed my belief that the Episcopal Church is open to evangelicals that love bible study and small groups and living a life of love. Many have recently come and become ordained clergy.
As a Episcopalian we would never embrace a religious cult like following, you guys spread hate.
Societies of the past where religious values supposedly were more dominant than they are today were, in fact, hardly moral at all (the presence of slavery, the absence of womens' suffrage, the illegalization of same sex relationships and the banning of interracial marriage as examples).
EVERYONE has lost their minds.
Russ, Both you and Brooks are modern day Sufi. Did you know that? So refreshing to hear from both as you support the legitimancy of multiple forces balancing each other. Good job and great video.
A perfect example of why politics and religion does not mix.... The religious need to stay out of politics... and lead by example. Teach your children.... and your lives will be more fulfilled.
Wrong and impossible.
@@corneliuscapitalinus845 We don't want religion in politics. Anyone who wants that needs to go elsewhere or learn to coexist with the rest of us. The moment you mention God, Jesus, the devil, etc. in a political debate I'm OUT. We will not allow faith to dictate public policy. It's wrong and unconstitutional.
@@gorey4more837 Okay, so leave then.
@@corneliuscapitalinus845 I think it's up to YOU to do that. The rest of us won't be held hostage by ideologies forced upon us. You telling me to leave is a perfect example of your misplaced superiority. You are no better than anyone else, and people like me will ALWAYS be here to remind you of that. Jesus doesn't support your narrow viewpoint. Repent NOW.
@@gorey4more837 That is a really all over the show reply, replete with all manner of folly and fallacy and whatnot, though interestingly enough such is quite typical of those of your persuasion.
Of course, David Brooks is the columnist who came out with an article entitled “now is when the fever breaks“ after January 6. My only response when I saw that was, “nope.“ To his credit, Brooks alludes to his naïveté in this interview.
I have genuinely been interested in what David Brooks has to say as of late. He's at least trying to view both sides of every issue. But that's just the thing... some issues don't have two sides. 90% of the crazy is on the right. I think he's constructing a false equivalency in some cases. I was disappointed to hear him say the left is only interested in posturing, not in producing policy. They're trying very hard to produce policy but getting blocked at every turn.
100% - couldn't agree more. Thank you.
@@markm.5756 100 % too, I agree. And I would add that besides proposing policies, the left is deeply committed to democracy and focused on defending the vote and expanding it to everyone. No moral equivalency AT ALL. However, the Supreme Court is a disgrace. Doesn't hold a candle to the so called 'liberal brahmin coastal elites' in terms of partisan anti-democratic hostility and bias for favoring the dark money of billionaires. And that's just one example. Holding critical race theory views, or pushing for diversity training is not the same as pushing for the overthrow of democracy and pushing the big lie. You are making what philosopher professors call a 'category error'. Please, Mr Brooks, you kind of owe us a careful explanation of how this equivalency between progressives who love democracy, and the right attacking the People's House to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power, or launching a nationwide voting suppression campaign, paid for by libertarian billionaires, conceived by the Heritage Center, represents the same kind of existential crisis to our constitutional republic? Or, maybe, try some intellectual integrity??
@@junanougues I'm in awe of your well articulated analysis. Please run for public office! Love what you said here.
@@markm.5756 Hi Mark, thank you. And one could even argue critical race theory, the example Mr Brooks uses, is not even a thing, just another bad faith or straw man argument. And what troubles me more, is that Mr Brooks is sophisticated enough to know this. That critical race theory is pretty much graduate school academic jargon, a conceptual framework for exploring racism in America. From a bunch of left wing eggheads that, like most graduate school theorizing and research, never reaches the high schools. Because, and I wish it were not true, especially in neurology, the gap that exists between high level university writing and science and high school teachers and administrators is breathtaking, like another galaxy, not even a different solar system. A bit smaller than the gap that exists between the physics of Newton and Einstein. In neurology alone, high schools still operate and design curriculums as if the brain were fixed, rather than plastic. And we have known this for decades! And it will probably take another 100 years to catch up with the latest descriptions of the human brain and how it impacts learning at the rate we are going. Because in America, public education is not based on the science of human development. And what they call standards based education is actually standards based administration. Doesn't have a thing to do with any kind of hard data on anything. En fin, all made up problems to advance a false right wing authoritarian narrative, for promoting minority rule in America. And that goes for teachers allegedly teaching kids about transgender sexuality in grade school; never happened anywhere! But now laws are in the books to address a problem that does not exist. The same thing with voter fraud, and on and on it goes. And one thing is for DeSantis to do this, a demagogue with a Harvard education that knows EXACTLY what he is doing, and quite another from Mr Brooks. Who prides himself on being a fact based commentator if not a first rate intellectual (he isn't). Because if he were, Mr Brooks and many other conservative arm chair influencers like him, would be sounding off all the alarms before the next election. Urging everybody to come out and vote blue. And defeat the white supremacy party that took over their GOP. That has our country by the throat. But, other than the Lincoln Project, hats off, they don't do that. I guess not that much into the founding spirit of 76' - democracy.
And all you have to do to see that that is 100%true is just look at this last week. One good deed after another on one side. Nothing but nihilism and theater on the other side. This last week was especially revelatory of this, but I almost feel you could pick any week.
Hanging all hope and being 'guided' by a mythological being in 2022 more or less implies their minds were already gone.
Rather than being a “myth” Jesus
Christ is alive and well and is reaching out to all of us in love
and compassion , if we would
only open our ears and listen.
@@annebalderston2520 yes ms balderston, please open all your senses, particularly that of the common variety, and you will see it's myth. Now please don't let me dissuade you of your faith, just don't allow our government to force it and its rules on me.
Hi Tim, you could never dissuade
me from my faith in Christ because I experience His reality
in my life every day. When I speak
to him in prayer, He is there. I would never want to force my
faith upon you or anyone., but I am
going to pray for you.🙏🏻
God bless.
@@annebalderston2520 as grateful as I am for your intercession on my behalf, I would appreciate a supplication for rain because that I could actually use.
Hey Tim-thanks for replying.
Actually, I was praying for rain
earlier because we need it so badly. I’m sure I’m not the only
one praying. I am in So.Calif.🙏🏻
Thank you gentlemen for this thoughtful work. I have shared it on my status💜💐❤️
If there is an honest admission of what constitutes seeking the truth, then acknowledging that which is false and mythical is part of that journey. Assigning truth to a book filled with false history, false science, false medicine, impossible physics, contrived characters, scrambled and false prophecies and massive contradictions is an irrational alignment. While it is quite easy to point to the dangerous philosophies and acts of evangelical extremism, it is more subtle, but equally dangerous to perpetuate a system of inculcating young children to accept a religion based on the falseness and mythification contained within it.
Completely logical point. So much talk about religion and Christianity when it's all such a lie seems pointless. Why must we talk about human goodness/badness in any religious terms? Reality is reality; that's all there is. Indoctrinating children is, to me, child abuse.
Well said
Brooks has a blind spot, not including the terrible regressive economic and many other policies and autocratic movement begun under Reagan and Gingrich.... favoring the rich, disinvesting in the poor and middle class; anti-union, anti-minority, anti- LGBTQ+, anti-public education, etc. It hurts all, but most importantly it creates huge divisions and ultimately hate. He talks great sociology and morality, without discussing basic economic policies.
Yeah ... of course, he is a Republican, no matter the mask of mildness, expression, rhetoric, he is still a supporter of global thievery hegemony and will take and follow the party line in whatever direct they tell him will allow him to keep and expand his enormous house. Brooks is very successful on PBS at making Republicans seems like American citizens when they are slave-owners and oligarchs who find the masses of Americans only a problem, like weeds in a garden or vermin in a house ... and they are always showing the worst to make others think that as well.
Brooks should be fired from PBS.
You are projecting, the Democrats are the party of the rich, hatred, racial division, perversion, and anti God.
No kidding, these so-called moderate Republicans couldn't see that their party was taken over by the descendants of the Confederacy in 1964? They have no problem with things until recently?
That and he's an asshole. Just ask his ex-wife who he walked out on
Excellent interview, interviewer, and interviewee.
After all that has happened since 1980, he's still clinging to being a Republican.
Surprising, isn't it? I had no idea he was a conservative and had been following him for years!
Wise. The Democrats are totalitarians.
I know many Christians who have left the Republican Party, and are
now registered as Democrats. They all say that they just couldn’t
tolerate the conduct of their party
any longer.
Good luck! A Christian Republican- RUN
Remember that Brooks endorsed Obama over McCain. Brooks did NOT vote for the disgraceful, disastrous, degenerate Trump.
It's interesting. The skill sets of curiosity, acceptance of others and differences, etc, that David talked about often were deepened educationally by a good general/humanities education during the first two years of college or in high school though history and civic studies. Now, the focus has become more on work training, career training, etc. and not about understanding the diversity that is the American experiment.
Agree with you David that Americans should cherish the freedom and encouragement to follow their own moral compass and find fulfillment without government assistance. And yes the populism we see is a class thing and wealth disparity is greater now than in the Gilded Age but our government has been so dismal at addressing class issues starting with abandonment of progressive taxation for the good of all.
Non crazy Christians? A rarity these days or so it seems
If the crazy evangelicals were like robbers, then these guys are like white collar embezzlers. Both are crooks, but people seem to like the fancier talkers. Government should be about justice, safety and infrastructure. These guys could not convince me they know a d_m thing about Jesus.
@@thinkingtoomuch7680 This comment only proves that people's minds are adapted to see order so that they may survive. It is a result of evolution, which christians rebuff and teach against because it is easier to beLIEve in a wizard than face the "apparent" chaos of reality. If asked about Jesus, they talk about a forgiving, loving man...but do they practice that ? NO, they just claim to be forgiven for being pricks because of a claim that a weekend torture and murder of a "resurrected" deity will get them a place in "heaven" after death. Such thinking makes a mockery of what it means to LIVE.
Perhaps spend some of that time thinking too much, doing things like helping others and bringing some joy in the world !!
@@thinkingtoomuch7680 Nice reply. Please note, no accusation was made...unless some self reflection caused such a triggered statement.
The point is. there are a lot of noisy, bossy people who profess to be "christian" who, as stated previously, seem to behave in the exact opposite manner than the archetypal "christ-annointed" is thought to have behaved. Its revolting. A person's inner peace and collaborative actions for successful outcomes, "speak" louder than any selfishly told testimony or preaching about sinfulness to convert those who can be shamed.
May I humbly state that prayers do nothing externally; but the comment about others views did have an encouraging effect! Perhaps people should call such positive engagements with others a prayer, rather than mumbling to oneself some hopeful petition to something (a "he that's a "trinity"?) that cannot be proven to be listening (other than claiming that the random expected outcome is "a personal deity" being appropriately benevolent and knowing "what is best" for the supplicant ).
Best regards and thank you. Maybe consider a blessing as something as simple as a respectful, yet "tough" discussion, as I do with this !
@@thinkingtoomuch7680 People holding the views expressed in this latest comment, give religion a good name ! (LOL).
Live and nurture those who let the gracious live.
I only read replies in the RUclips notifications dropdowns and do see inconsistent behavior. To be honest, the internet is a free crapshoot (old expression) and so I simply appreciate those who are cantankerously pleasant enough to be forwarded by the algorithm
It is encouraging to encounter those who ARE reasonable and polite.
Live well and regards to your son.
There are millions of non-crazy
ones-they are just not on the news.🙏🏻
Bingo about feeling misunderstood by the other side.It is almost as simple as that- being able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes and empathize is huge. That takes a willingness to be vulnerable and want to connect. That should be taught at home and at school. We need learn it and model it to our kids. Non violent communication is one way to do that. I would like to be better at this myself. So hard when you are stuck in fight or flight mode. Poly vagal theory is fascinating in describing what happens to the human nervous system when we are in that mode and how to get out of it so we are able and want to connect.
Great and interesting conversation. Thank you.
I have a LOT of time for David Brooks. I feel sorry for the US - which is in the midst of a complete collapse of any sense of solidarity (except maybe towards the members of a common "cult" - whether secular or religious: there's no real difference in my mind). The disappearance of Christian charity (and modesty: as a rather lapsed Catholic, I still can't shake my "mea culpas") in a supposedly "Christian" country is shocking to me.
Other countries also have to worry about these trends too, but nowhere is the situation as grave as in the US.
David Brooks is a front man for the vile republican party. They let him hang around them so that he can be the "nice guys" while they conspire to be authoritarians. Listen to Brooks often mention that he thinks he is "lucky" to have is "gig" as some sort of conservative thinker. He is really just an articulate d-mb-ass.
RE: the loss of Caritas--Charity--Love in favor of self righteous egoism. You nailed it.
It seems our problems relate to the distribution of wealth. When we have a vibrant middle class earning a good living, and not a large upper middle class and a large lower class, everything is much better.
Thank You "Very Much"
For Your Enlightening Exchange/ Conversation On Christianity/Evangelism Today "As Such".
Just want to say that that your dissecting the argument is wonderful.
I agree. It’s not just about the performative. It’s also about people buying in and even elevating the worst of society. That can happen on right and left!
If your faith is based on self (selfishness in any form) instead of on The Holy Spirit, your faith will fail.
...but the cult leader will prosper, regardless of the cult culture or beliefs.
My early memories are of the WWII soldiers coming back home full of wonderful stories of high shared adventures. Prosecuting the war together led people to respect one another across cultural divisions. A generation of cooperation ensued.
The unique thing about American evangelical protestantism ( which David Brooks is asked about, but does not address) is that there is no catechism or a hierarchical legacy. Having those things in place does not prevent abuse of power, obviously, but they do keep a rein on the ideas that can pop up and take hold of the followers. Anyone can start a church and be a preacher in the evangelical tradition (“tradition” is perhaps too kind a word here). I call them “roll your own” churches. It all depends on the pastor, because he/she can literally “make it up, as they go along.” This discussion is not getting to the core of the crazy Christian nationalist problem.
Fundamentalists are to be found in both liberal groups and conservative groups. David Brooks has always made a lot of sense to me -- I'm glad he's thinking and taliking about this stuff.
David is an oblivious shill. His "golly-gee" persona is used by the thugs to be the face of the "nice guy" while the corruption, deceit and power grabbing go on in the background. Brooks betrays his ignorance by conflating his idea of conservatism with the republican crime syndicate.
@@NSOcarth 🙂 Your comment reminds me of something a psychiatrist colleague once said to me: " 'Borderline Personality Disorder' is the diagnosis we give to patients we don't like." If I get your point, I take it well. Regards.
So sad to think that David believes we have to see ourselves as bad or flawed fundamentally in order to motivate/desire to be better. How about we’re inherently light, good beings who are lost and wounded, and we need to find the way back to our intrinsic light? We’re not bad… just wounded.
Of as Jessica Rabbit (from “Who Framed Roger Rabbit”) said, “I’m not bad. I’m just drawn that way.” 😊. Cheers…JT.
Thank you, David. Scary times.
Thank you guys! great conversation
From Australia where we get the pbs newshour amongst others and respect David's viewpoints (foresure);
I cannot understand why in a country where there is a separation of church and state, 'enshrined' in the constitution that this is allowed to happen. The constitution is set up to help stop discrimination which in the day of christian against christian. People are obviously easier to manipulate if they are willing to let their imaginary fiends dictate how they cast their ballots. Don't think that the 'trail of tears' is something to be proud of, though somehow this is what is being preached.
All good points, how did this happen that we believe that the Constitution gives the Vice President of the United States the authority to declare a presidential election corrupted and over turn the will of the people? I was taught in middle school that the Vice President's role in counting the electoral votes is purely ceremonial. How could people be so manipulated?
@Robert Carlyle Unfortunately Iran's mullahs were only able to gain traction after the intervention of the west (guess who). It grieves me that such zealots could ride roughshod over a culture that existed in one form or another for millennium with poetry , they tell me, and I have no reason to doubt, rivaling Shakespeare.. That the US with its vacuous propensity for an expedient quick fix should fall in the same trap shouldn't really surprise anyone.
@Robert Carlyle
There are a few like that.
Most understand our nation was founded on the principles of Judeo-Christian thought with a dose of the Enlightenment
I’m a Christian but know I’d rather be governed by someone who holds the Constitution to be the law of the land than a ‘Christian’ like Nancy Pelosi and her notions of what constitute governance
What separation of church and state was created for was to prevent government control over the church as a whole. That is, the church was to be protected in order that it may govern its own affairs: selecting leadership - bishops, or whatever title may be given - and freedom to worship. There was to be no state-mandated religion, such as you find in the United Kingdom or the Vatican. But there was also to be no state suppression of religion or the ability to worship or to express religious views publicly. The government is prevented also from establishing secular control over church institutions, including schools, hospitals, publishing, and charitable work. Those institutions are a part of living out the faith embodied in the religion and a part of the freedom of religion of the citizenry. The heart of the issue was the limitation of government power over religion, at all levels.
@@farmergiles1065 Historically what you say makes perfect sense. I suppose it was never a question of morality as your founding fathers were OK with slavery, at the time, in much the same that it gets tacit and occasionally explicit approval in the bible. It was more rooted in the political establishing the extent of who had power over whom and giving primacy of religion to no particular caste. Though getting back to my original point of discrimination there appears to be a straying from the original intention
I have learned a lot from reading David Brooks' NYT Columns over the last 15 years or so.
I find this conversation between a Christian and a Jew to be uplifting.
Mr Brooks cited the Statistics about mental health and I did not know it was that bad.
For the past 45+ years, I have battled IBS (an intestinal disorder). I don't know how I could have done so, without a strong Christian Faith.
I can hear the pages of the Bible rustling in the background, especially the one one which it is written:
". .. For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the
beginning of the world until now -- and never to be equalled
again.
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive,
but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."
---- Jesus Christ in Matthew Chapter 24: Verses 21 -22
Circa 33 AD/ CE
As for what David Brooks said about "Sin", I agree with that, and so would Saint Paul who
wrote:
". . .For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified
freely by His Grace through the Redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
----- Romans Chapter 3: Verses 23- 24
Got a lot out of this convo. Thanks, men.
Wonderful discussion. Thank you.
Are times as cray as they seem? Yes almost 3/4 of humans think there’s a man in the sky who secretly controls the universe and is interested in what they do as an individual. This man although all powerful is in particular need of my adoration. Yes it’s crazy!
@@minispinakins2034 ? Not a man but god? Sorry I don’t buy into you claim of superiority without proof. What crazy do I believe? Not a thing other than the potential that humans could live in peace and harmony if they tried hard enough.
@@minispinakins2034 don’t put your words into my mouth. I have faith in nothing. Faith is pretending to know things that are unknowable. You don’t have faith in god you only assert that prayer works. You have ZERO evidence.
@@minispinakins2034 no mini I’m old. Change my views? To what? To the same god delusion that you have? My whole point to you is that there is no evidence to support the claim that god exists. I also hope that you could embrace reason, logic and learn to think critically but that’s unlikely. So enjoy your faith and be a good human. Good bye now.
@@chuckeelhart1746 so Chuck . Have you ever tried anything to see if a spirit world really exists ?
I once spent 3 months living in a tent in the front yard of a sioux medecine , in South Dakota .
You're way off.
@@theodoremartin6153 yes I’ve imagined many weird things whilst high too. I did not mistake those thoughts for facts though. Way off? Give me factual evidence that I can research please. Not just assertions.
Roe Wade repeal will change many things. Perhaps people will wake up to the fact that conservative Christians want a theocracy and the Supreme Court will make it possible.
The bullies are winning. No doubts.
“The actual content of the faith got left by the wayside.” Grievous and true. Yet there are small pockets of Christ followers who do spend time thinking about what Jesus’ words really mean, the deep love under the scriptures, and try to form their lives “walking as He walked”, in humility, compassion, and true love and justice. This is such a sad commentary, but so good for Christians to listen to.
The churches are being sifted. Some will continue to seek material prosperity and power. And some will return to the “actual content of the faith” and seek to create goodness and beauty in the earth, in community with other humans and with God.
Thank you for your thoughtful reflections.
Really good conversation
another perspective is that if the two poles dislike each other and distrust each other so much, and that politics can't solve the everyday problems of America according to Mr. Brooks, we need people to get excited about one of 2 things. 1. The middle 2. Or something other than politics. If one opts for 2, then we ignore an element of society that has deep impact on both communities and individuals. Not a great option. If one opts for 1, then we need someone that people get excited about, because almost by definition - the middle is kind of boring or at least non-inspirational. So if the message is not so exciting, then the messenger must be. That person has to be willing to aggressively address the two poles, aggressively support people and politicians in the middle (politics must be a noble pursuit), while also making a case for the middle approach - which the constitution actually is. It is a document that created structures that supported the status quo. So you gotta believe in some key elements of the status quo - which many are not happy with today. Tough roads ahead.
You have a good point. The poles are exciting for people, the middle is a little boring.
Can I offer a solution that involves 1 and 2? Decentralized government and libertarianism. It's #2 because it says that your life and your family and your community is more important than politics, so let people figure that out outside of politics. And it's #1 because it's a live and let live philosophy. Don't force through government your views on others, outside of enforcing actual crimes where there is an actual victim. Allow federalism to do it's thing. If California wants to be California, let them be California and if Alabama wants to be Alabama, let them be Alabama. But let's both agree that Californians aren't going to force Alabama to live a certain way and Alabama isn't going to force California to live a certain way.
@@Smithistory It seems that the state level is too big to narrow this down. There are diverse positions on many things in Alabama, and also in California and all the other states. State level decision making does not mean harmony. Why not the county, city, or neighborhood level? Going lower may make things simpler, but - oddly - not clearer. And a point of view is that we are one country, given rights on a federal level that apply to each of us. If we want to share a common culture, splitting things up does not do that. One definition of a community is that it is based on the people with whom you share. State borders don't change that perspective. We've been through challenging times before. We will be again. It is time for us to be the example for the next time this happens. That said, I really appreciate your view, and willingness to engage. Differences make us better.
@@petersassi4918 well I'm an anarchist, so I'm fine with getting rid of it all, but it would at least be nice if the federal government followed their own contract.
Federalism is at least a start and then people can vote with their feet on which society they prefer to live in. My other half of the theory is that this will never happen because the federal government has the money printer and states don't. So both sides will continue to push for the federal government to get involved so that we can just print up the money for either side's boondoggle and that's what we can bipartisanship.
I think we are developing two different cultures and I don't know if you can put them back together in any real way. But I'm ok with a mutual defensive alliance and free trade between these United States, similar to the original design of the Constitution.
Interesting conversation. Thanks!
Sirens add a nice touch. Right on cue.😮
Wow, very interesting. I just love David Brooks, longtime fan though I lean left personally. About five years ago I had a convo with a few politically mixed friends and I wondered whatever happened to thoughtful, good-faith conservatives like William F Buckley (a mentor of David's) and David himself? I tend to agree that the masses will eventually tire of all the fighting; "I want a fighter!", "He's a fighter!", etc, and that cooler heads prevail.
Great discourse!
It is worth mentioning that this is all uniquely American, it speaks about what our economic, political, and pseudo righteous values brought to us.
we need to practice some humility and stop this nonsense about American exceptionalism.
Hearing this conversation a year later, Mark and Russel were so very wrong. Lots of self deception.
We lead more chaotic lives today because starting with Reagan we have seen a major redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the billionaire aristocracy. Most of us lead much more difficult lives than the postwar generation in order to enhance the wealth, privileges and power of the one percent at the top.
Guys like Brooks gloss it over because they had a major role in this redistribution.
It’s amazing how much David resembles Justin Welby, Archbishop of Canterbury. You’re right on target, but this has been brewing for a long time; simmering across time. We can blame secularism, and other isms, but it’s more complex than that. We get isolated from each other in so many ways; and the political dimension and power seeking driving us apart seems to have some connection with a genuine loss of community; and you’re right about the sense in which we have failed to grasp that the moral struggle will always have a dimension of ambiguity; i. e abortion, etc. and so we tend to want absolute answers where there are none.
I almost always love what David Brooks has to say. He brings a fabulous perspective to the Christian world. I am so glad he has become a believer.
I like him. He’s a good man. I do however wish sometimes that he would push back harder against the arrogantly certain of myself but oh so misguided Jonathan Capehart
'It's not like that here ...'. As an observer from Australia, I hope Brooks is right. Leonard Cohen said that America is the 'cradle of the best and the worst'. What comes across from this distance is the worst and it really seems like civil war is not such a fanciful idea. My sense, maybe 10 or more years ago, was that Americans were passionate about issues but, for example, held great respect for the presidency. Now that doesn't seem to be the case. This was one of the 'norms' that held firm. Now, this and other, 'norms' are just another part of the disputation. Again, I hope Brooks is right and the pendulum will swing back towards more depth, more tolerance, more respect ... I think the American experiment is worth saving.
America seems to be somewhere between the canary in the coal mine and the bellwether that leads the flock. You can think of us as a bad example not to follow, or....
But we do it first, or at least loudest, and most publicly, always, no matter whether we should be doing it at all (and if not, it's infinitely more public....)
With any hope, we can be the first and most public to recover our feet and reaffirm our oneness as a nation.
*Seem to be. I'm not suggesting I want it or take pride in it. I'm just saying the world press gives us a lot of attention....
@@NSOcarth All the better to provide insightful observation. 😁
I was born In the '50s in a small town in Kansas. I was raised Republican and Methodist. That was back when abortion was illegal, the gays were still in the closet, the 5% of the population that were black stayed down on their end of town, Mexican farm workers stayed out on the farms where they worked, transgender people hadn't even been heard of yet and we would watch things like race problems in California and New York and say to ourselves, well at least we don't have problems like that here, but when I was a teenager a black couple moved into my neighborhood at the other end of the block, (they had two small children and they were clean, neat people with jobs) and the people next door to them moved out without a word, never even meet them.
Everything we knew about the East or West coasts was on television and in spite of the internet and all I imagine that it's still pretty much the same there. People in the Midwest in general don't like change and things are changing and that scares them.
Maybe there’s such a thing as loss of frontier: over my boomer lifetime society has become more and more structured and regulated. A guy can’t just up and go somewhere for a new start, so to speak. Urbanized people have become accustomed to this structure, while rural people feel and fear its encroachment. This urban/rural dichotomy is one of many, I suppose, but it represents the idea. Things have gotten a lot more structured.
Structure begets escapes. In the 50s there were the beatniks. In the 60s there were the hippies. Now that the effects of those escapes have been to a degree formalized into law, those who fell marginalized by liberalism are building their escape from it in the form of MAGA and related ideas.
Evangelicals didn't recently lose their minds. They've been nuts for generations. I grew up in the 70s and 80s in an evangelical church. Focus on the Family and the Left Behind series, for example, were (or should have been seen as) rabidly anti-intellectual, unscientific, simplistic, and hypocritical. What you are seeing and hearing now on the right is old hat. What has changed is the Internet and proliferation of echo chambers and an enfeebled Republican establishment.
So David Brook's basic thesis is that because people decided to start shedding the guilt that came with the idea of original sin and the idea that sometimes its more important to focus on yourself than to continue to exist in a dysfunctional and abusive family structure has lead to moral anarchy. And worse, he hypothesizes that because of this 'anarchy' people no longer try to better themselves morally. I find that line of reasoning preposterous and lazy.
The fact is that churches have become political organizations, ostracizing people who aren't conservative. As people move away from conservatism, they are no longer welcome at their church. Evangelicals did this to themselves in their effort to turn their religious organizations into centers of political power.
I definitely think you are right about lazy thinking on David's part. There are many ways to build a functioning morality without God. One need only look to the famous Shelly Kagan versus William Lane Craig debate on RUclips. Kagan proposes a godless morality based on reason alone and cleans wlc's clock.
"Original sin" is a myth and free floating guilt is neurosis. Both are useless at producing anything but misery. Functional guilt is associated with an Ideal...Feeling pangs of guilt for doing less than our best, can be productive.
This was outstanding.
We've lost our moral compass because we think of "faith" as that compass. Faith is not a guide for striving to be good. If you look to "faith" and work to change your behavior to mirror your faith you will become exhausted, disillusioned, and eventually despairing. God is the guide, not faith in God. If we can let go of our striving to be good and love God who can transform us we will love one another and behave better. The contemplatives knew this. Letting go is for everyone, even busy retired people, journalists and commentators. I refer you to the article "Purity in not Holiness" from Richard Rohr's Daily Meditation.