@@pluemas frankly I think a lot of people overestimate how much of a difference a shorter overall length makes in a field environment. Obviously if you're working in and out of vehicles or inside buildings a more compact weapon is an advantage, but for dismounted general infantry use a 20" gun is perfectly fine, and I would argue that based on these results, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
20" Mafia here. There's no replacement for velocity, and the best way to get velocity is barrel length. Good Pencil Barrels still make handy carbines, just watch the WWSD videos.
Karl, there was a serious flaw in your conclusion- it should’ve been clear that it was NOT the 18 inches of barrel that increased the hitting power but the muzzle break (and possibly the cerekote finish) that caused the projectile to penetrate the way it did…😉 Karl- bad man!
Lots of people were asking what armor this was last video. Given what Karl said about it, I think its safe to say its the "ar500 armor heritage plate" from ar500armor. Pulling a direct quote from their website " This means that its level 3 body armor protection is rated to stop 7.62x51 M80 NATO Ball (.308 Winchester) at a velocity of up to 2,750 FPS, and special threat tested to stop 5.56mm M855/SS109 (Green Tip) at a velocity of 2,750 FPS."
So what I'm hearing is that Canadian Non-Restricted barrels of 18.6 inches are the ideal barrel length for steel armour. In all seriousness very interesting test and confirms what should've been obvious to most people, that ceramics are currently the best protection you'll find today.
There's never something that's best for all situations, ceramics shatter after the first hit and if there's a chance you'll get pounded like my ex - steel might be better. It's like I pretend to say for the purposes of this comment, the best defense is not getting to hit.
@@glandhoundsecret I'll let you in on.... Rarely do people take more than one hit on body armor. Not zero mind you. Also, even "cheap" ceramic can take multiple hits of AP rounds and still be viable for even pistol calibers.
The biggest gains for M855A1 is effect behind windshield glass and reliable, rapid yaw/fragmentation, especially through 14.5" barrels. In the early 2000's the US soldiers often faced car bombers, so having a round that could kill the driver with fewer shots was important. M193 and M855 tend to shred going through windshields and what does pass through is deflected significantly and often in small pieces. The second issue was late yaw of M855 and lack of fragmentation effect at longer ranges. M855 would often pass through a thin body without yawing and fragmenting. The problem was worse with the shorter barrels.
Except it was deceptive because that plate is standard level 3 AR500 steel core armor. Its only rated to stop 6 shots of .308 up to 2,780 FPS. Its not even rated to stop those rounds.
Was the plate level 3 or level 3+? If the plate Karl used is level 3, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because a level 3 ceramic plate would likely suffer similar failures against M855A1 and even M193 out of longer barrels. If the plate Karl used is level 3+, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because there is no uniform standard for 3+ or "special threat plates," meaning that some ceramic options would be just as likely to fail the test. I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor (both because of spalling and lack of adequate protection), but the video is disingenuous. Karl didn't say what level the plate is because he knows it would explain why the plate failed to stop all the rounds, and he didn't test it side by side with a ceramic plate of equal rating because he knows that a level 3 ceramic plate would also fail to repeatedly stop M855A1 out of a 20 inch barrel. Again, I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor, but it's harder to convince people of that when videos like this are dishonest or disingenuous about the facts. The video doesn't prove that a ceramic level 3 or 3+ plate is better than a steel level 3 or 3+ plate. It proves that everyone should buy level 4 armor (which could be ceramic or other hybrid/composite materials).
One of many reasons I am still a fan of the A4. I never understood the current obsession with cutting half your barrel off. The M16 is a proper fighting rifle. The most intense urban combat of GWOT was done primarily with M16s, and Marines did very well with them. With tactics and training, the rifle's length isn't nearly the issue some make it appear to be, and the ability of the M16 to perform well with any ammunition, as well as its reliability and shooting characteristics, made it worth it. There still no other 5.56 I would rather run towards gunfire with than an A4. 20 in Mafia for life!
100%. I could live with an 18, but 20 is my first choice. The people running around with 8,9,10 inch AR “pistols” are nuts, I wouldn’t be caught with anything less than 16 and even that’s losing several hundred fps from a 20” barrel. 5.56 is all about velocity.
There is a benefit to be had with a shorter barrel, and that's why the US military adopted the M4 and the Mk18. That benefit is entirely contingent on fighting being asymmetric against unarmored targets, which is why they didn't come around until the 90s and 2000s when they were fighting guerillas without substantial armor.
Spent a few seconds trying to understand what's the APFSDS in the thumbnail and why I don't recognise that type... then figured out those were barrels and a round designation, whoops 😅
Debating getting a custom 14.5 inch barrel from dead shot barrels for my next AR10 project. Thought about going 6.5 creedmoor but I already have a bunch of 308 ammo. Definitely going to slap another 18 or 20 inch 5.56 upper together too. Great video
@@glandhoundI "ironically" post this on body armor discussions that get out of hand. Who is going to shoot for your body armor specifically? I train to shoot for the pelvis or head. If I hit once I BET you anything the threat is going to diminish significantly
The problem is that some UHMWPE plate manufacturers--like the Shot Stops I bought--have been supplementing US made plates with Chinese plates that won't stop M193. Apparently UHMWPE needs to flow in certain ways and get a certain cool down or the... grain structure is wrong or something. TLDR FBI and Ohio State Police are investigating Shot Stop for providing dud "Level IV" plates to state and federal agencies.
@@sgtkasiif they were selling to normal people, they were defrauding them too, it’s just that the government has all our stolen money to sue people with.
Faces move around a lot, and are quite small targets even if they have large mouths. Don't be asking for a citation on that, eh? That plate's only about a foot long, though. It has a top _and a bottom._
"Nobody has 20 inch guns" 20 inches is my shortest long gun. Cleared houses with that length of a rifle. Anything that cant fit a 20 inch gun is handgun territory in my book.
Original commentary on 556 often remarked about it cutting targets down like an axe. The tendancy for it to yaw inside the target and exit at odd angles was highly praised. The reason the barrels were shortened was equally valid though as we have more motorized troops than any other nation and it was getting people into dicey situations on dismount. Those 6 extra inches make a massive difference when you haven't yet managed to get out of a humvee under fire
The plates he's been using are legacy plates, rated for M855, they specifically mention it's not rated for M193, their newer plates are capable of stopping it tho.
I had heard that with the wrong feed angle 855a1 can damage rifle upper feed ramps. Regarding the AR500 plate, it is about the thickness of the plate. My backyard plates do get pockmarked at 25 yards from a 20" barrel with green tips, but not pierced. However mine is a thick piece of metal not intended for wearing. A 2" thick piece of S7 steel I tried didn';t even visibly scratch.
If the plate Karl used is level 3, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because a level 3 ceramic plate would likely suffer similar failures against M855A1 and even M193 out of longer barrels. If the plate Karl used is level 3+, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because there is no uniform standard for 3+ or "special threat plates," meaning that some ceramic options would be just as likely to fail the test. I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor (both because of spalling and lack of adequate protection), but the video is disingenuous. Karl didn't say what level the plate is because he knows it would explain why the plate failed to stop all the rounds, and he didn't test it side by side with a ceramic plate of equal rating because he knows that a level 3 ceramic plate would also fail to repeatedly stop M855A1 out of a 20 inch barrel. Again, I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor, but it's harder to convince people of that when videos like this are dishonest or disingenuous about the facts. The video doesn't prove that a ceramic level 3 or 3+ plate is better than a steel level 3 or 3+ plate. It proves that everyone should buy level 4 armor (which could be ceramic or other hybrid/composite materials).
I preach these results to people looking for defense/duty guns. Longer guns work better in the dark too. Steel plates are for targets, not armor. AR steel stands for “abrasion resistance” not penetration resistance. Velocity rips.
I’m literally on a comment thread on another video right now with multiple people arguing with me that there’s no way M193 can penetrate steel. It’s scary how many people are wearing this stuff and don’t know.
With the advent of 300 blackout, my desire for a 14-inch or shorter AR has kind of gone out the window and I've been looking at different barrels. Looks like I might be getting an 18-inch now..
Alright, so I have a good amount of experience with M855A1. What lot was it, what temp was outside, and what AR500 plate is it? The standard level 3? Ive shot AR500 with a 14.5 barrel at 25m and M855A1 went through. 16 barrel M193 went through. It was during summer so fairly warm and velocities were likely up. M855 was stopped from both 14.5 and 16. Also put M855A1 through half inch mild steel plate from 14.5 as far as 100m. From 11.5 at 25m. Neither M193 nor M855 penetrated the half inch at any distance from any barrel length.
18 inch is were the powder stops burning, 20 inch is the max. Anything past 18 inches and then especially past 20, your gains are quite literally like 50 fps from 20 to 24, so a barrel that long is a heavy barrel for no reason
@@HatsuneM1ku01 not if you're using it for area denial, your really not runnin around, you're controlling a space and keepin heads down. But 50fps is still 50fps, but from my testing its actually about 85 to 90fps.. if it dont bother you to carry and you're not clearing buildins with it, does it matter if its 4 inches longer? Not really to me.
It would be nice to see post impact images of what the plate looked like too, so we can see if the rounds are impacting in the same area and what effects that might have on the plate. Just curious to see if the spalling pattern/radius is impacted (+/-) by barrel length.
@@PiercedRivetHead If the plate Karl used is level 3, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because a level 3 ceramic plate would likely suffer similar failures against M855A1 and even M193 out of longer barrels. If the plate Karl used is level 3+, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because there is no uniform standard for 3+ or "special threat plates," meaning that some ceramic options would be just as likely to fail the test. I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor (both because of spalling and lack of adequate protection), but the video is disingenuous. Karl didn't say what level the plate is because he knows it would explain why the plate failed to stop all the rounds, and he didn't test it side by side with a ceramic plate of equal rating because he knows that a level 3 ceramic plate would also fail to repeatedly stop M855A1 out of a 20 inch barrel. Again, I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor, but it's harder to convince people of that when videos like this are dishonest or disingenuous about the facts. The video doesn't prove that a ceramic level 3 or 3+ plate is better than a steel level 3 or 3+ plate. It proves that everyone should buy level 4 armor (which could be ceramic or other hybrid/composite materials).
@@oldbenkenob1the problem is that many people think that because their steel plate says its stops 5.56 (M855) that it must stop M193. I’m on a comment thread right now with guys who are saying that what we just watched happened is impossible and that if steel can beat 7.62x51 then M193 won’t leave a dent. This knowledge needs to be out there because people don’t know.
Totally not scientific! A 10.3 with the paint job of the 18-inch would have defeated the armor also. Everybody knows that a stars and stripes ceracoat adds +5 Penetation +9 Carisma and - 4 Stealth
Velocity is the key. There is some cheap 223 rem by Remington that the box says something like 3600fps. I’m sure that’s a 20+ inch bolt gun. But maybe that gets zippy enough in a 16”
Personally, i just dom't understand what stops the steel armor manufacturers from just making steel armor that does stop 5.56 and 7.62 from 20 inch barrels. Weight? Thickness? Why not a composite approach?
Weight, basically. Those steel plates are already the weight of cheap level 4 ceramic plates, 8-10lb for a medium. They would end up having to weigh probably 12-15lb each, or 24-30lb before you add the weight of your plate carrier, ammo, and other gear. That's almost as much as the full Michelin Man Interceptor suits, and the latter has soft armor covering about 2/3 of the body along with side plates.
Mostly weight. That's why you see composite body armor becoming more and more prevalent, because it's lighter (but usually thicker) than pure steel for a given protection level.
Weight and thickness are both factors. It's already heavy, and making it thick enough to match the stopping capability of ceramic plates would probably make it too large to fit in standard plate carriers, not to mention the additional weight. As far as a composite approach is concerned, I don't see the point. The additional manufacturing complexity would probably negate any cost savings versus ceramic plates, and it still wouldn't be as effective as full ceramic. Steel just is not a good material to use for body armor because the kind of strength needed to stop a high-velocity projectile is not the kind of strength steel excels at.
Amazing how effective the ar-15 is when using the barrel length the system was originally designed for and the ammo that was designed along with it 😉
I think Eugene Stoner is having a good chuckle somewhere.
If only there was a style of rifle that was a short overall length whilst retaining it's barrel length...
@@pluemas If only their ergonomics were good…. 🤔
@@pluemas frankly I think a lot of people overestimate how much of a difference a shorter overall length makes in a field environment. Obviously if you're working in and out of vehicles or inside buildings a more compact weapon is an advantage, but for dismounted general infantry use a 20" gun is perfectly fine, and I would argue that based on these results, the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
@@pluemasBULLPUP POWER
I like the video format, short and to the point.
20" Mafia here. There's no replacement for velocity, and the best way to get velocity is barrel length. Good Pencil Barrels still make handy carbines, just watch the WWSD videos.
No pencil barrels suck....even a CHF is lacking in performance..combat weapon needs at least CHF M4 profile or SOCOM profile
I went the gauntlet. 7.5, 10.5, 14.5(pinned), 16, 20. 🎉
@@joecentral-o9984 you must watch buffman lol
@@fujimi715 That's because they get used as spear shafts.
@@Sableagle you should actually learn about barrels.
"Does two inches make a difference? YES!"
And men everywhere with lifted pickups rejoiced.
No, I'm not going to say it.
just gotta ask HER if 2 inches make a difference.
2 MORE makes a difference
Damn, no way that 18" isnt yours thats TOTALLY your fashion
Yup, it screams "no gods; no masters."
Another reason to go with bullpup rifles perhaps? A 20" barrel is a $500 option on a Styer AUG.
Bingo.
Karl, there was a serious flaw in your conclusion- it should’ve been clear that it was NOT the 18 inches of barrel that increased the hitting power but the muzzle break (and possibly the cerekote finish) that caused the projectile to penetrate the way it did…😉 Karl- bad man!
Lots of people were asking what armor this was last video. Given what Karl said about it, I think its safe to say its the "ar500 armor heritage plate" from ar500armor.
Pulling a direct quote from their website " This means that its level 3 body armor protection is rated to stop 7.62x51 M80 NATO Ball (.308 Winchester) at a velocity of up to 2,750 FPS, and special threat tested to stop 5.56mm M855/SS109 (Green Tip) at a velocity of 2,750 FPS."
So what I'm hearing is that Canadian Non-Restricted barrels of 18.6 inches are the ideal barrel length for steel armour.
In all seriousness very interesting test and confirms what should've been obvious to most people, that ceramics are currently the best protection you'll find today.
There's never something that's best for all situations, ceramics shatter after the first hit and if there's a chance you'll get pounded like my ex - steel might be better. It's like I pretend to say for the purposes of this comment, the best defense is not getting to hit.
@@glandhoundsecret I'll let you in on.... Rarely do people take more than one hit on body armor. Not zero mind you. Also, even "cheap" ceramic can take multiple hits of AP rounds and still be viable for even pistol calibers.
but the AR is now prohibited not restricted !
@@woltews can't tell if sarcasm or not but maybe you should look into why the AR-but-not-an-AR are so popular here
@@glandhound most quality ceramic armor that isn't Chinese mystery meat will survive 4-6 hits of AP ammo and dozens of pistol caliber impacts.
And just like that, sales of 18”+ barrels saw a bump.
Karl is a true influencer
18 been my preferred barrel. Never found one I wanted to pay for at the time of shopping. Vs 20"
The biggest gains for M855A1 is effect behind windshield glass and reliable, rapid yaw/fragmentation, especially through 14.5" barrels. In the early 2000's the US soldiers often faced car bombers, so having a round that could kill the driver with fewer shots was important. M193 and M855 tend to shred going through windshields and what does pass through is deflected significantly and often in small pieces.
The second issue was late yaw of M855 and lack of fragmentation effect at longer ranges. M855 would often pass through a thin body without yawing and fragmenting. The problem was worse with the shorter barrels.
The Bob Dobbs surprise guest spot on the 14.7 results had me chuckling 😂
The Church of the Subgenius
Yup, blast from the past.
Perfect analysis, backed up by real results and data right there in front of the camera 👍
Except it was deceptive because that plate is standard level 3 AR500 steel core armor. Its only rated to stop 6 shots of .308 up to 2,780 FPS. Its not even rated to stop those rounds.
If those steel plate proponents could read, they’d be very upset
yoooooooooooo 😂
Deusanima is that you?
Sheeeeesh
Was the plate level 3 or level 3+?
If the plate Karl used is level 3, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because a level 3 ceramic plate would likely suffer similar failures against M855A1 and even M193 out of longer barrels.
If the plate Karl used is level 3+, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because there is no uniform standard for 3+ or "special threat plates," meaning that some ceramic options would be just as likely to fail the test.
I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor (both because of spalling and lack of adequate protection), but the video is disingenuous. Karl didn't say what level the plate is because he knows it would explain why the plate failed to stop all the rounds, and he didn't test it side by side with a ceramic plate of equal rating because he knows that a level 3 ceramic plate would also fail to repeatedly stop M855A1 out of a 20 inch barrel.
Again, I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor, but it's harder to convince people of that when videos like this are dishonest or disingenuous about the facts.
The video doesn't prove that a ceramic level 3 or 3+ plate is better than a steel level 3 or 3+ plate. It proves that everyone should buy level 4 armor (which could be ceramic or other hybrid/composite materials).
Thats because the spalling has blinded them
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here; "Huge success"
It's hard to overstate
My satisfaction
still looking for the cake.... lol
btw it was a great game.
are we talking cake farts?
@@glandhoundit is all about the cake in 'portal' (a game)
Now I’m happy that I bought the 20 inch barrel before the sales go up.
One of many reasons I am still a fan of the A4. I never understood the current obsession with cutting half your barrel off. The M16 is a proper fighting rifle. The most intense urban combat of GWOT was done primarily with M16s, and Marines did very well with them. With tactics and training, the rifle's length isn't nearly the issue some make it appear to be, and the ability of the M16 to perform well with any ammunition, as well as its reliability and shooting characteristics, made it worth it. There still no other 5.56 I would rather run towards gunfire with than an A4.
20 in Mafia for life!
100%. I could live with an 18, but 20 is my first choice. The people running around with 8,9,10 inch AR “pistols” are nuts, I wouldn’t be caught with anything less than 16 and even that’s losing several hundred fps from a 20” barrel. 5.56 is all about velocity.
@@DOOM_A-Oit’s almost like using the barrel length the ammunition was designed for gives superlative results! how wild is that!
There is a benefit to be had with a shorter barrel, and that's why the US military adopted the M4 and the Mk18. That benefit is entirely contingent on fighting being asymmetric against unarmored targets, which is why they didn't come around until the 90s and 2000s when they were fighting guerillas without substantial armor.
@@Reniconix that benefit is what? Slightly easier room clearing in exchange for AT LEAST half a dozen downsides?
20 inch barrels: Good to the last drop
And they're standard. So cheap too
Supposedly the tolerances and QC for M855A1 are much better than M193. It would be interesting to see a video on QC breakdown.
Really like your new and improved mission statement and description of your channel!!! I like 20 inch
Awesome, thank you!
Spent a few seconds trying to understand what's the APFSDS in the thumbnail and why I don't recognise that type... then figured out those were barrels and a round designation, whoops 😅
Debating getting a custom 14.5 inch barrel from dead shot barrels for my next AR10 project. Thought about going 6.5 creedmoor but I already have a bunch of 308 ammo. Definitely going to slap another 18 or 20 inch 5.56 upper together too. Great video
What's your intention for the gun? Cuz that's gonna be a blunderbuss with the "wrong" muzzle device 😂
I wonder, what’s the max distance a M193 or M885A1 will penetrate that plate using an 18 or 20-inch barrel?
Likely around 50 ish yards. Guessing math.
when you're that close, chances are you'll hit above the plate too
@@glandhoundbelow will do the trick too
@@glandhoundI "ironically" post this on body armor discussions that get out of hand. Who is going to shoot for your body armor specifically? I train to shoot for the pelvis or head. If I hit once I BET you anything the threat is going to diminish significantly
People tend to shoot low in real CQB because you instinctively bring the gun down out of your field of vision so you can see better.
I'd love to see you guys look at 24" guns at some point
Or 25.4", the Enfield Competition thing, which doesn't actually weigh as much as a Barrett M82.
I’d be curious to see some testing with an UHMWPE plate
The problem is that some UHMWPE plate manufacturers--like the Shot Stops I bought--have been supplementing US made plates with Chinese plates that won't stop M193. Apparently UHMWPE needs to flow in certain ways and get a certain cool down or the... grain structure is wrong or something. TLDR FBI and Ohio State Police are investigating Shot Stop for providing dud "Level IV" plates to state and federal agencies.
@@quentinking4351
I remember this. It was quite a while ago though and I'd think the results would be out by now. How did that pan out?
@@quentinking4351based shot stop defrauding tyrants with inferior protection?
@@sgtkasiif they were selling to normal people, they were defrauding them too, it’s just that the government has all our stolen money to sue people with.
How about testing it at realistic engagement ranges? Like 200, 150, 100 and 50 meters?
that's a real long distance engagement, i wonder how the marriage will be
Defeat any armor with any cartridge, aim for the face.
Faces move around a lot, and are quite small targets even if they have large mouths.
Don't be asking for a citation on that, eh?
That plate's only about a foot long, though. It has a top _and a bottom._
@Sableagle rabbits don't wear armor, and I still hit them in the head 99.9% of the time.
I say aim for the belly button
Go for the pelvis. They will drop like a rock.
@@NelsonZAPTMyour rabbits are shooting back??
20 inch m193 gang stay winning! That’s literally all I stock, and it’s still goated 60+ years later.
"Nobody has 20 inch guns"
20 inches is my shortest long gun. Cleared houses with that length of a rifle. Anything that cant fit a 20 inch gun is handgun territory in my book.
Love the J. R. "Bob" Dobbs cameo. Oh, and the rest of the video, too.
I wonder how often people claimed "5.56 lacks stopping power" when 20-inch barrels were the standard.
Original commentary on 556 often remarked about it cutting targets down like an axe. The tendancy for it to yaw inside the target and exit at odd angles was highly praised. The reason the barrels were shortened was equally valid though as we have more motorized troops than any other nation and it was getting people into dicey situations on dismount. Those 6 extra inches make a massive difference when you haven't yet managed to get out of a humvee under fire
Missed opportunity to chrono the shots for maximum science.
You can make sweet youtube moneys by shooting the chrono, it's a viral success.
18” superiority gang
You really should put more than "AR 500" as description, there are different grades, is this L3, L3+, or L4 NIJ standard? It makes a difference.
The plates he's been using are legacy plates, rated for M855, they specifically mention it's not rated for M193, their newer plates are capable of stopping it tho.
No steel is Lvl 4. And I wouldn’t believe any company that says their steel plates beat this. Just buy ceramic.
I had heard that with the wrong feed angle 855a1 can damage rifle upper feed ramps.
Regarding the AR500 plate, it is about the thickness of the plate. My backyard plates do get pockmarked at 25 yards from a 20" barrel with green tips, but not pierced. However mine is a thick piece of metal not intended for wearing. A 2" thick piece of S7 steel I tried didn';t even visibly scratch.
I only use 18 and 20 inch barrels on my AR builds. Short barrels are for military and police use, longer barrels are for range shooting.
Great testing!!
The best barrel length for 5.56 is 20 inches it also has the best gas length
Karl you have warmed my heart for I don’t know how many more days by validating my choice of 55 grain ammunition.
My AR is a 20” w/ a 4x32 ACOG.
What threat level is that plate rated for? Level 3+ and level 4 should stop M193.
You're correct. This was a standard level 3 AR500 plate. Not AR650.
Was the plate level 3 or level 3+?
If the plate Karl used is level 3, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because a level 3 ceramic plate would likely suffer similar failures against M855A1 and even M193 out of longer barrels.
If the plate Karl used is level 3+, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because there is no uniform standard for 3+ or "special threat plates," meaning that some ceramic options would be just as likely to fail the test.
I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor (both because of spalling and lack of adequate protection), but the video is disingenuous. Karl didn't say what level the plate is because he knows it would explain why the plate failed to stop all the rounds, and he didn't test it side by side with a ceramic plate of equal rating because he knows that a level 3 ceramic plate would also fail to repeatedly stop M855A1 out of a 20 inch barrel.
Again, I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor, but it's harder to convince people of that when videos like this are dishonest or disingenuous about the facts.
The video doesn't prove that a ceramic level 3 or 3+ plate is better than a steel level 3 or 3+ plate. It proves that everyone should buy level 4 armor (which could be ceramic or other hybrid/composite materials).
You 💯 nailed It @@oldbenkenob1
I preach these results to people looking for defense/duty guns. Longer guns work better in the dark too. Steel plates are for targets, not armor. AR steel stands for “abrasion resistance” not penetration resistance. Velocity rips.
This is an old, bare minimum plate, the companies newer plates are specifically rated to stop M193, but sure.
Spalling kills!
What level plate is that? I wonder if 62gr. non-green tip ammo out of a 20 inch. 1 in7 twist would have the same effect?
the moment that mag matched the gun i knew before he shot that the 18 inch would work.
Makes me feel better about the 18-inch on my Beryl. I would have preferred a 16-inch before this video but not after seeing this. 😂
Should try AR550/ 3+ plates to see if it makes a difference
I’m literally on a comment thread on another video right now with multiple people arguing with me that there’s no way M193 can penetrate steel. It’s scary how many people are wearing this stuff and don’t know.
What length does AFT use?
Whats the plate rated for? NIJ? Product link?
So two inches DOES make a difference...
So what your saying is double plating is the way. Gimme that AR500+ligh-midweight ceramic.
Do most ceramic plates survive this?
There are some lightweight plates like the L210, which would probably fail against a 20", but most wouldn't.
With the advent of 300 blackout, my desire for a 14-inch or shorter AR has kind of gone out the window and I've been looking at different barrels. Looks like I might be getting an 18-inch now..
Alright, so I have a good amount of experience with M855A1. What lot was it, what temp was outside, and what AR500 plate is it? The standard level 3? Ive shot AR500 with a 14.5 barrel at 25m and M855A1 went through. 16 barrel M193 went through. It was during summer so fairly warm and velocities were likely up. M855 was stopped from both 14.5 and 16. Also put M855A1 through half inch mild steel plate from 14.5 as far as 100m. From 11.5 at 25m. Neither M193 nor M855 penetrated the half inch at any distance from any barrel length.
Pretty please tell me what that branded hoodie poncho thing you wear in some of the mud tests is
M193 and a 20 inch dwell time? Almost as if a gifted Mechanical/Arospace engineer gave it some thought in his carriage house?
1:03 where is that face of the guy with the pipe from? I know it was an old counter culture book from the 1960s or 70s. Damn, can't think of it now...
The slacker church iirc can't remember their exact name. I think the man's name is JD Dobbs or something
Which plate is that because they make Level 3, 3+, and 4. While that doesn't matter for the spall danger it is necessary context for penetration.
Virtually all of my rifles are 18". To me it still seems very manageable inside the house with the stock collapsed.
That 18” is a beauty 😍🤣
Why did you fail to mention that the standard Level 3 AR500 steel core plate is not rated to stop rounds that travel at those velocities?
Try from 100 yards away instead of just 15 and see what happens. Cause i'd really like to know if its still effective at that range.
Very cool, thank you
what about overlords?
Is Arizona hot enough to compromise AR500 steel now?
Im that .001% guy that you come across if shtf where your ceramic plate wont save you either 😂
What thickness is that AR500 plate out of curiousity?
Were these the level 3 or the 3+ plates out of curiosity?
and in those 4 minutes the market did swing
Couldn't you get just a slightly thicker plate?
Is there a ceramic armor plate maker that you recommend?
I'd say it really depends on your budget and threat profile. Generally, you can pick two of three out of lightweight, cheap, and highly protective.
Cool video. (Checks rifle)...16" darn.
40 grain v max .223 out of a 20” barrel will pop that plate even some 3+ plates too
Jesus Christ is Lord. Thank you for the information.
You bet!
how do these tests stack up at further distances and hits at potentially deflective angles?
This rabbit hole makes me wonder if gas system lengths will change anything. 16" mid-length vs 16" carbine-length systems, for example.
no, that will have absolutely no measurable difference on velocity worth worrying about.
Been wondering where 16 inch fits in the ballistics contest
Important PSA for Europeans, a 19" barrel is very common in bullpups.
It's insane how far just a few inches above average will take you.
Welp guess this validates my 24 inch heavy barrel 5.56 American rpk build 😂
18 inch is were the powder stops burning, 20 inch is the max. Anything past 18 inches and then especially past 20, your gains are quite literally like 50 fps from 20 to 24, so a barrel that long is a heavy barrel for no reason
@@HatsuneM1ku01 not if you're using it for area denial, your really not runnin around, you're controlling a space and keepin heads down. But 50fps is still 50fps, but from my testing its actually about 85 to 90fps.. if it dont bother you to carry and you're not clearing buildins with it, does it matter if its 4 inches longer? Not really to me.
Did it have the rhino liner coating?
20 inch barrel in a bullpup is the best of both worlds
What level is that plate rated at
"Opponent"
Analysis of the imaginary
Y’all lacking I’m on that 24” barrel gang
I know this comment is coming, so let's just get it out of the way.
Which SKU is that? What level is AR500 rating this particular plate?
@@PiercedRivetHead oh for sure. I'm asking mostly academically, and a little tongue-in-cheek because of the reaction to the original short.
It would be nice to see post impact images of what the plate looked like too, so we can see if the rounds are impacting in the same area and what effects that might have on the plate. Just curious to see if the spalling pattern/radius is impacted (+/-) by barrel length.
@@PiercedRivetHead
If the plate Karl used is level 3, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because a level 3 ceramic plate would likely suffer similar failures against M855A1 and even M193 out of longer barrels.
If the plate Karl used is level 3+, the data doesn't prove that ceramic is better because there is no uniform standard for 3+ or "special threat plates," meaning that some ceramic options would be just as likely to fail the test.
I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor (both because of spalling and lack of adequate protection), but the video is disingenuous. Karl didn't say what level the plate is because he knows it would explain why the plate failed to stop all the rounds, and he didn't test it side by side with a ceramic plate of equal rating because he knows that a level 3 ceramic plate would also fail to repeatedly stop M855A1 out of a 20 inch barrel.
Again, I agree that people shouldn't buy steel armor, but it's harder to convince people of that when videos like this are dishonest or disingenuous about the facts.
The video doesn't prove that a ceramic level 3 or 3+ plate is better than a steel level 3 or 3+ plate. It proves that everyone should buy level 4 armor (which could be ceramic or other hybrid/composite materials).
@@oldbenkenob1the problem is that many people think that because their steel plate says its stops 5.56 (M855) that it must stop M193. I’m on a comment thread right now with guys who are saying that what we just watched happened is impossible and that if steel can beat 7.62x51 then M193 won’t leave a dent. This knowledge needs to be out there because people don’t know.
What does “No Gods, no masters” mean at the end of the video?
Exactly what it states.
youtube algorithm rewards videos with the slogan
Well, I’d rather be defeated in argument, then in battle.
what class was the plate?
Ah dirtballin' with cheap 55gr and a proper 20" rifle 🤘
Peopel think m193 is cheap range ammo and stock up on m855 and blow all their 193 into trash piles. Boy how they couldn’t be more wrong.
Totally not scientific!
A 10.3 with the paint job of the 18-inch would have defeated the armor also.
Everybody knows that a stars and stripes ceracoat adds +5 Penetation +9 Carisma and - 4 Stealth
Couldn't the plate be a bit thicker to work? doesn't even have to be a different weight could just shrink the coverage a little
Now do it with the Aug lol
Velocity is the key. There is some cheap 223 rem by Remington that the box says something like 3600fps. I’m sure that’s a 20+ inch bolt gun. But maybe that gets zippy enough in a 16”
Just aim under the plates. Or over the plates.
What Protection Class has this.
Personally, i just dom't understand what stops the steel armor manufacturers from just making steel armor that does stop 5.56 and 7.62 from 20 inch barrels. Weight? Thickness? Why not a composite approach?
Weight, basically. Those steel plates are already the weight of cheap level 4 ceramic plates, 8-10lb for a medium. They would end up having to weigh probably 12-15lb each, or 24-30lb before you add the weight of your plate carrier, ammo, and other gear. That's almost as much as the full Michelin Man Interceptor suits, and the latter has soft armor covering about 2/3 of the body along with side plates.
Mostly weight. That's why you see composite body armor becoming more and more prevalent, because it's lighter (but usually thicker) than pure steel for a given protection level.
Weight and thickness are both factors. It's already heavy, and making it thick enough to match the stopping capability of ceramic plates would probably make it too large to fit in standard plate carriers, not to mention the additional weight. As far as a composite approach is concerned, I don't see the point. The additional manufacturing complexity would probably negate any cost savings versus ceramic plates, and it still wouldn't be as effective as full ceramic. Steel just is not a good material to use for body armor because the kind of strength needed to stop a high-velocity projectile is not the kind of strength steel excels at.
Better steel will cost more, probably a lot more. IIRC AR500 is meant for making plows, bulldozer blades, excavator buckets, etc, its not special.
Nothing because they do exist? Karl here is just using the one plate that isn't rated for the rounds he's using.
77gr milspec black hills next up please.
Won't go through anything.