As hobbyist composer, I admire anyone who can make a living at it. Before retiring from my non-music job 14 months ago, I went crazy buying sample libraries, and other virtual instruments in anticipation of a big drop of income. I spent a lot of money on orchestral libraries from Spitfire and the NI Komplete collection. If I could do it over, I would buy a Musio perpetual license instead, for the price of one or two expensive Spitfire or Cinesample libraries. I got Musio recently to fill in some of the gaps in my instrument collection. There is a huge number of libraries included. It seems that it doesn't have the full controls to create the highest level of convincing and nuanced mockups for professional composers, but I don't have the skill or desire to do so, now that I understand a little about how much work and knowledge is involved. I should have realized that all I really want is to arrange the songs I write with some beautiful orchestral elements that sound not obviously fake. Of course, since I already own the lovely Spitfire stuff, I will use it, but much of the Musio collection is damn nice too, such as the Tina Guo cellos and the Gina Luciani flutes.
I mostly agree. There are tons of small indie devs out there committed to creating quality libraries, but of course only a few of us can afford to get into the orchestral game. Jasper and Aron have that area pretty well covered from an indie perspective, but the rest of us try to push the envelope in other ways, it’s just hard to break through the noise from the big devs.
@@joecm Jasper Blunt of Performance Samples, and I don't know who Aron is. Might be the Cinematic dude, I think last name is Banks or something....down in Aussie land.
This video explains why I absolutely respect Jasper Blunk and Performance Samples. Really innovative sampling and just hard work and commitment to quality :)
yea, my fav. string sound is Vista. It has that gritty emotional quality I could never find in other samples. I really wish he had done a viola for his Pacific solo Str. though. And a Bass would be nice.
Modelling is the future of sample libraries. I think sample libraries should be going smaller in terms of size, not bigger. I've slimmed down to a laptop-based setup, running Audio Imperia Nucleus for traditional samples, with Aaron Venture brass and winds and Pianoteq for keys. My template takes up only a third of the RAM on my 16 GB machine and sounds better than anything I had achieved with other sample libraries previously. I'll be investing in only modelled libraries (Sample Modelling, V-Winds/Horns, Aaron Venture), sound design plugins or budgeting to record real players going forward (with this being the end-game goal), but my days of buying traditionally-sampled orchestral (or other) libraries have definitely come to an end. Why do I need 230 GB of drums (Superior Drummer 3), or 200+ GB of just strings with 26 mic positions (Spitfire HZ Strings)? It's not justifiable for me personally, and really isn't pushing the industry forward in terms of technology, or supporting those who are trying to do new things with sampling.
Actually imho AI is the future of sample libraries. I’m pretty sure it won’t take too long until there will be an AI model that can read a score and play it. With singers and everything. Like udio just for written music. The sound quality is not that great yet, but I’m sure it will get better. Gone will be the days of midi programming, can’t wait.
Yes! VWinds/Brass sound fantastic, and are so much easier to produce a natural sounding performance than standard sample libraries, and all without key switches. For the future, I see AI applying a similar nuance of performance as a human would to a set of notes on a page.
Modelled instruments don’t sound that good. Every time someone talks about how great they sound, I have a listen and there’s something off about them. And, that makes sense. There’s so much more to sounds than the physical reproduction of them.
What I want to see much more often in libraries are patches that recognize my playing style and determine which articulation is most appropriate at the moment, resembling the lively playing of a real musician. There's nothing worse than trying to mimic an organic playing style using key switches or many different tracks.
So true, I've been saying this for years. In fact it's always surprised me how developers have managed to stay afloat for so long without selling anything better. And don't get me wrong, they've been selling new interesting stuff too. But these libraries aren't usually traditional orchestral libraries and aren't definitely the 'big name/big release' they try to build hype about - those big names are ALWAYS traditional orchestral libraries.
I think it depends on what sort of music you want to make. If I want to mock-up a piece that will ultimately be performed by a real orchestra then I'll always use VSL. They seem to be the closest to what you'll hear in a recording studio. If your music is solely studio based and unlikely to be performed by a live ensemble, then use whatever library sounds good to you! Also, and this applies to all libraries, find out what your samples can do - it will save you money!
My current favourites are the Virharmonic Bohemian series solo instruments. The 'AI' assisted articulation switching and style modes is where all of these libraries and sample players should be headed. So much faster work flow.
I got the Instant Cello because I saw it on sale. Never heard it. Watch some RUclips reviews and was blown away. Bought it for $50 and boy this thing is WAY ahead of any solo strings I have.
Thanks for taking time to make this, it's stopping buying more libraries I really don't 'need' just because they're on sale. I have subscribed to EW to try HD2 and so far have had big problems with Violins 1 legato doing some very weird things, for example playing two notes together a semi tone apart 😮. Tech support did respond very quickly but not solved. So far glad i haven't bought it. A review of HS2 would be great.
Yup. I’m getting the same behaviour in HS2 as well. This is what caught me by surprise when I tried it at first. They already have such a great HS1 product. Why is HS2 not as good?! 🤦🏻♂️
@@BrianRivlin I have both HS1 and HS2 and what you describe sound like you are trying to place two notes at the same time? The legato works for me in the same way in HS1 and HS2, where you must play a melodic line. None of the legato patches will play polyphonic if you try to play a chord or something
Sorry I didn't make myself clear, when playing the same note over and over say 16ths suddenly one of the notes will sound together with a note a semi tone up😮. When you play a legato line you seem to get two notes sounding together for a moment, long enough to notice. Maybe I'm expecting too much but I've not had this problem with other libraries, lag yes, but not sounding together.
This is why Jasper Blunk and Aaron Sapp are my two favorite devs. They both genuinely care about pushing the art of sampling forward. And their products are really incredible
I couldn't agree more, and not just about orchestral libraries or movie genre. The same is true all across the board. I limited myself to Omnisphere(+trillian), Falcon, Komplete, Dune3, and EZ Drummer. No more GAS (gear acquisition syndrome),
So what are your 3 main libraries, and what are your other 2-3 that you use to layer or fill in? Maybe consider making a video giving your recommendations while discussing some more nuance. Which ones do you think play well together? Which increase or improve your workflow? Which sound good to you? What do you consider to be quality libraries and/or synths/instruments? Personally, I'm still a huge fan of Omnisphere, Zebra2/Diva, Albion One, Cinebrass, Cineperc, Tina Guo Cello, OT Berlin Woodwinds, Cinematic Studio Series, The Etheras, Oceania Choir, Abbey Road One Foundations (as a supplementary library), BBC Core ($240 on sale was a pretty good deal for an entire orchestra in a box), Albion Solstice, and some of the NI Komplete stuff like Damage, The Giant/Alicia's Keys/Una Corda pianos, Thrill for more aleatoric stuff, and Mysteria. I stopped buying stuff once I got these and a few niche things. Haven't bought a string library in years. The only thing I still want to get at some point is E/W Hollywood Opus, just so I can check out the strings and play with the orchestrator. It's a lot cheaper now compared to what it was at release, and still a lot of value. On a side note, AI companies such as OpenAI or ElevenLabs and Udio or Suno will probably make Sample libraries, and sample library developers who don't integrate AI, obsolete. Maybe not yet, but in 2-3 years or so, its going to happen because this stuff is moving at an incredible pace. I won't need a sample library when I will be able to tell some AI to add some violins or a chamber orchestra or some choir to the score I wrote, or the melody I hummed. Some companies like Cinesamples are jumping on the AI bandwagon, but guys like Spitfire are still stuck in the past believing that people are going to be spending 2k on some bs overpriced modular Abbey Road library that nobody actually asked for, or needs, that they claim is the next best thing since slice bread. Spitfire makes some great things, but it also makes complete garbage, and are sometimes completely out of touch. For example, find me a single use case for their Cassette Orchestra. I can't. I haven't seen a single review or a single person who actually made anything with that library. I learned to not buy into any more marketing bs or gas.
For me personally, as someone who has limited time and limited funds, and who isn't even ready to release anything yet, much less make a profit or anything, I think that while getting a library that is "just right" could help boost my track by 1 or 2 percent to the finish line, I have to realize that that 1 or 2 percent might just not be in the budget, time or money wise. I would much rather just buy one or two libraries I am confident in and I feel will work for most of what I want to attempt and then pour my time, money, and soul into that remaining 98% to make it as good as possible. Especially considering the fact that if I spend too much time and effort on finding the perfect sound or patch, it will actually hurt that remaining 98%, the composition, what I actually like and care about, since I won't have any time or energy left for it. That's just my perspective though.
It's a very accurate perspective. We forget how limited our time for actual composing is. And by the time you get all the libraries you want, they're obsolete, and better stuff is out. I made a list of all my obsolete libraries, and it was so depressing, even realizing I had never really gotten around to using some of the more expensive ones. Instead, I spent my time earning the money to pay for them, rather than making music. Such a slippery slope for many of us.
At the end of the day, the very best libraries/instruments for composing with or making music with, are the ones that you HAVE, not the ones you wish you had. I have Spitfire BBCSO Core. A very good all round library, which I love, and has absolutely made me as a composer. The next logical step for me would be BBCSO Professional, but that will have to wait until the pocket is ready. In the meantime, I will continue to compose and record using BBCSO Core and my MIDI hardware instruments, because those are what I have.
10:56. Essential comment ! Myself- I pretty much got everything I needed libraries wise around about 2 years ago. That was the last time I purchased anything (filling in the last gaps in all orchestral sections). The sounds, articulations, realism got pretty much so perfect that IMHO they already reached an apogee of design and sonic demands in the hands of a skilled composer/orchestrator. There’s not much (if anything) one can add to what already existed 2 years ago, so buying “new” products makes zero sense if you’re satisfied with the results you can achieve with what you already have. All it takes now is your own creativity, amount of time (oh yes, it does take time !) you can devote to perfect each and every every line… Careful Hybriding is the key if you want to achieve “your” timber. I doubt if I will ever purchase anything anymore, unless someone creates the way to do your own portamentos between any combination of strings notes (YOUR combinations, with your starting and ending notes, with your tempo etc. NOT the pre-recorded ones with fixed duration and notes).
A question: There’s a lot of focus on large “Hollywood’y” solutions - and several great ones. However, my productions are within “popular music” (not actually pop), typically where string sections would range from a quartet to like 4-3-2-2. I’ve used partials from an old LASS version, but the mastering of this old product is _very_ bright, showing its age. Could someone suggest a newer’ish library covering smaller sections well? I arrange “old school” from scratch, so I’m fine without ‘phrases’, combos and the likes. Divisi, good legatos, dynamic control, senz. vib. etc are crucial, though… Thanks for inputs… 😊
For pop studio stuff I'd recommend CSS. It was recorded with an unconventional setup that makes it not ideal for big sounding cinematic pieces or orchestral music in general but if you mix around the spot/main mics it's surprisingly great at that sound. It does runs, legatos are incredibl still to this day, etc. Way better than other alternatives such as Spitfire Studio Strings (stay away from their Studio series if you can)
You might try the Spitfire Quartet and the Spitfire Chamber sets. I think with attention to detail they can sound really good. I honestly prefer Chamber over their bigger orchestra sounds.
I totally agree with you that being able to try a library before buying it would be a game changer. My very first Spitfire library was ... unfortunately ... the Olafur Arnalds library because I had no clue what I was doing. It was a pricey library and certainly for someone out there the exact right library but it was not so for me. I was beyond disappointed and used it only one or two times in my life. This experience kept me from buying any other product from Spitfire again because I am too afraid of spending money on the wrong product.
I relate to your situation 100% coming from around 2010 as well and I hate it lol great video though man! I think Spitfire were the last group I was impressed by.
as a new composer using DAW for 2 yrs now.. i will never buy something with offset delays again.. sure i love the sound of CSS but i can't even play an action strings line of shorts off my keybaord in time.. it's impossible.. i've tried all the tips from vi forums.. nothing fixes it.. CSS control panel , offset your track.. nothing works... i'm switch over to Sample Modelling or SWam very soon..... 2 other youtube composers deleted my comments from saying this... Am i even allowed to have opinions.. i'm very unmotivated by the extremely gatekeepy composing community online.. Everyone telling you how your supposed to sound or what we should buy... and no one mentioning OFFSET DELAYS.. i can't deal with them anymore.. it makes me punch the air and pull own my own hair.. if you catch my drift. Tokyo Scoring Strings WILL play in time.. i never see composers talking about it... like if i would have known about this i would never ever have purchased CSS or CSB.. it's driving me crazy honestly man.. i care about having things work in my midi.. CSS and CSB dont' even match each other's timing .. it makes me cry... i spend a lot of money on them... if only the youtubers who convinced me they were the best would have explained offset delays... i'm literally so upset about this for months now. I was able to get Tokyo Scoring Strings but now i need brass that plays in time.. like i'll have to get Aaron Ventures infinite brass i think. I will come back tommorow see if you reply or delete this comment... everyone deletes my opinions.. i'm starting to dislike the online community.. they pushed Cory over the Edge with all that toxicity on vi forums, i read the entire thing... .. i used to watch him he was the best and honest about things.
That is the problem with CSS. I got BBCSO Pro, Abbey Road Two Iconic Strings, Albion One Colossus and VCSO2 for ethnic stuff. If one can't play the library in, then it has no real life and is only good at offline render. CSS even with 1.7 seems real bad for inputting runs in real-time. Avoid it. Performance samples has a look ahead feature which helps though.
SWAM are more like playing instruments, so you really have to get used to playing with controllers. Yes there is a lot of gatekeeping, and a lot of strange beliefs with no bases in science.
There's a ceiling to what you can do by buying more timbres, and I think we're pretty close to it. As a hobbyist, I got off the train of buying samples and plugins ages ago and re-embraced chiptunes. The professional composer is in more of a bind since they're regularly asked to make their work sound "realistic" (i.e. expensive) but the toolset they're using for that is an imitation, and it has, since the dawn of MIDI, enforced a certain kind of workflow to pursue realism by doing extra work to cover up all the flaws in the samples. Thus, all the arrangements where the sections are layered with percussive instruments and solo voices are limited to amelodic blasts with no dynamics - Hans Zimmer did it and you can too. I did have thoughts of getting a cheap recorder and playing with that. There's a session instrument for ya.
Last string library that completely impressed me to buy it without hesitation was Spitfire Appassionata Strings. Yeah, it doesn't have shorts or tremelo, but it didn't stop me from improvising with other libraries that I already had to compliment SA like Albion One.
"We can tell when the product is great - and when it's not" Amen, brother. So many companies in so many different fields just seem to... not understand this. Beats me.
As someone who "owns" hundreds of these libraries, I definitely agree that they all sound very similar these days. Furthermore, I only rely on 1-3 libraries as you suggest. I often go as far as to render out individual samples and add them into compositions via REAPER's Project Media FX Bay.
As a part time shopaholic I have to say that Spitfire Symphony Orchestra at 280 euros (50% sales) is the best deal. In addition Musio 1 perceptual licence at 200 euros (50% sales every 2-3 months) is a great addition… So with 500 euros you could do what was impossible a few years ago. The WOW factor these days is the price and not the libraries themselves. For me, best purchase I ever made is Vflutes from Acoustic Samples. I also own Vbrass and saxes and I have to say I’m pretty impressed and inspired by the level of performance of these libraries.
Wee correction: Windows XP was released in 2001 (?why do I remember this? Because it’s the only time I switched to windows from Mac - before OSX - because XP gave me a true robust pre-emptive operating system
Thanks for the correction. In my research I searched for what Windows version was released in 2003 and the result was XP. I guess google got it wrong 😂
Weird. When you talked about budgets getting smaller, and deadlines getting shorter... I felt that. See, I'm a CG Animator. And it's fucking brutal for us right now. Everyone wants to exploit us to the moon then immediately fire us. Pixar just had a great purge of employees right as they're promoting Inside Out 2. I'm a working guy with a family, and I'm getting by working for corporate places like Dell and Microsoft. But it's not just us, all us production artists (composers are Absolutely artists in my opinion) are having to compete and learn to work so damn fast, on our toes with fire leaping at us in order to stay in the game. But we do it because we love it (and also that means having to take a massive paycut if I wanted to quit and get a "real job") SO... At least for me... I'm fucking stuck whether I want to be or not. So I gotta learn, quickly and fast, and always change with the times. At least I enjoy that.
Great points altogether. My go-to orchestral library is still EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold which I licensed in 2011. With its wide selection of articulations, a realistic score is very doable. In this brave new world of AI, I, too believe that modeling will replace sampling. Combined with MPE, I'm optimistic about the potential.
I believe that the main resource that these companies should be looking for is a way to have these libraries with the same or even better competence, but, mainly, occupying much less space in our SSDs and consuming less RAM and processing power. That would be a huge advance. Physical Modeling as it has a gigantic potential, and SWAM has demonstrated this. Nowadays these libraries are gigantic, they require a huge heap of memory and processing, making it impossible for independent composers to assemble their mockups in order to compete with the big ones in the market.
I wonder how the strings built into Logic Pro X compare with Hollywood Strings 1? Has anyone done a side by side comparison? Logic seems to have most of the articulations covered: so I don't see why I should buy another strings library?
@@this.is.shashwat Apparently they've got much better in recent years; but I don't have much else to compare them to. The only other string libraries I've used are Muse Sounds, and Music Studio for iPad. Once you start automating the midi ccs to add vibrato, portamento lirico, etc..., the Logic Pro strings sound pretty good to me. I'd like someone to explain exactly how they're inferior?
For string sections the best recommendation I can give is: learn to play the violin!!! It will make your tracks waaayyy better! I started 3 years ago and now I'm slowly getting to the point where I can record parts and layer them over my VSTs. And boy it makes a hell of a difference. Even if you're not the greatest player it sounds so much better and more realistic- especially for all shorter articulations and/or sections where you need to switch the articulation a lot. Before I started I often didn't even realize how bad those midi strings can sound when you're not completely sure what you're doing- now I hear it.
Yup!! Totally agree. I don’t really play any strings myself, but I do have a violin that I can get passable lines from and layered with good libraries it makes a HUGE difference.
3:19 haha do these great people still post on VI-Controlation (where to ask if someone reads music is rude) ? They have to found an independent forum without anonymous nicknames gatekeeping and mobbing people with “classical” values, and where the moderator doesn’t stop any thread with opinions he doesn’t like. This will be the huge contribution to composers and developers facing professionally REAL problems, and who want something beyond amateur hobbies.
I mean....we should just make one, it is not that difficult to do while spending not a lot of money (just the domain the rest you can do as good as that forum for free and with even more features if you wan), the only problem is time...lots of time......... and commitement, and also the ability to reach the public as well, since VI has a monopoly in the orchestral composing space.
I'm just a hobby musician and as long as that's the case, I would never spend so much money for those libraries. Not because I think they don't deserve it or the product isn't worth that, but I just can't invest so much if I'm not even sure I'll use it that much. So for me personally, the EW subscription is an amazing alternative! I'm still thinking about getting very niche libraries, like Orchestral Tools Grimm or insanitysamples Haunted Strings 2
You raise a good point. These libraries are tools. And the best time to invest in a tool is when it makes sense to buy it. Not when you want a shiny new toy. (Although I am very guilty of the latter 😂).
The big problem is, they're all the same... Also there are free options that can be made to sound far better than they do out of the box, with just a bit of technique and processing. For example, load up the Cellos and Basses from BBC Discover with the stock sounds play them and they sound like crap. Now add a notch eq around 2.5khz -2 or 3db, tune the cellos up an octave, add a second bass track, tune it down an octave with the built in down tuner, -6db, add a subtle curve high pass filter around 80hz, and throw ReaLoud on the track with the mix% mapped to the modwheel, add some big reverb. Suddenly you have apocalyptic sounding strings right out of a Zimmer track, you don't even notice the lack of legato on big verby sections as long as you blend the note together a bit with a sustain pedal, but if you need legato strings you can always layer in a solo cello with legato to act as a first chair. Processing and blending is super important to get anything "Zimmer" esque, if you can do it yourself there's no real reason to buy them. The libraries worth buying are the great all rounders that will lend themselves to the quieter/more traditional orchestration, like BBC Orchestra, Symphonic/Hollywood Orchestra, Nucleus. Making it sound big and loud isn't worth paying $$$ for. The one exception might be Metropolis, but it doesn't really sound "bigger", just louder and grittier.
V.A.T. on a sample library ! really ? That gets me wondering. It's just sounds and not physical. V.A.T. on something you can't put your hands on, or have in a box. Then there's the expense of buying a large drive to back all your libraries on, and that's not guaranteed to be 100% safe.
I agree, but even EastWest HS demos never worked for me, if Phoenix is the only official composer for them, he's simply not a good one. I own HS Diamond, but I've found that smaller ensembles like Performance Samples Vista & Pacific Stings sound much more realistic.
I think in 5 years, Ai will model any instrument in any way you want it to sound in any context, matching any movie soundtrack mix feel you'd like to imitate and more... Libraries will be extinct eventually (also real live orchestras in the business I'd say).
I just love UVI Soundware's. I don't care if they're "the best" They sound perfect to me and I prefer using Falcon over that weird East/West interface. Also, their word builder for the vocal libraries suck. Man, we're in an age where I can throw a rock at high quality text-to-speech/speech-to-speech services. Just update it, dang it
I really dont think that modelling is THE future. It probably has a place in a full orchestral template. But the sound of sampled instruments is just so extremley realistic that I personally don't need anything more versatile than that. At some point the amount of work you need to adjust every single parameter in the modelled instrument becomes so time consuming that it's not worth it. It sound worse and it's more work. I don't get it. AI is different in that case because it could make things faster, better and more versitile at the same time. The only problem with ai is that you need so much training data that it becomes almost impossible to make an ultimate scoring ai. All the big companys would have to combine and make one epic product for this to work. Otherwise it will take a pretty long time for ai to have a place in samples libraries. And for most instruments ai will probably not be better. It will just be different. With things like choir this is a different story I think. Because everyone needs voices and voices are so unique that ai will probably play a big role in that regard. People are happy with what they have and it's already extremley easy to make music with all of the librarys we have that ai will just not be a very big market in music.
That's true, which is why I think a.i., will bring something unexpected, rather than the obvious attempts at improving virtual instruments. Who's going to put out the cash while they already have a bunch of sample libraries? Until they get us over the key switching, and limitations of loading various articulations...having a string player on a single track who can play any articulation seamlessly, as well as any nuance of legato, slur and dynamic, all by the a.i. player's own interpretation of your score. The big breakthrough will be a complete virtual orchestra with individual players who can read a score. Plus a new scoring system for amateurs to communicate their ideas to the Virtual Orchestra players and conductor. No need for separate tracks [unless you want them].
Hi, Brian, I tend to disagree when you say that even a poorly played cello does better than a virtual one. Yes, there is the richness, the multi layer details, all the nuances, etc. But, well, if you don't have at least a decent performance, a virtual tool may offer better results. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
Yup! Musio is (in my opinion) one of the better values out there if you don’t already have a big arsenal of libraries already (or if you’re on a budget).
130 gigs to download, and when you do, it looks small, like under half the size of a regular category for EastWest. I love EastWest though, I know of nothing better. I love ComposerCloud.
Fair point. Although, you definitely don’t want it the other way around where you record players and have one of your friends ask “what’s that library?” 😂
@@BrianRivlin What smaller companies would those be? Those new to this are often looking for recommendations. Now I know what pitfalls to look out for, but what are some sample libraries worth a look?
Maybe, but their quality control is super low, except for Abbey Road Orchestra which is pretty expensive and ultimately doesn't bring a lot new to the table
oAs you age, you can hear less and less on the highest frequences Perhaps your brain is simply remembering how Hollywood Strings used to sound to you, but modern strings have no place in your auditory memory.
I watched whole video because you are hilarious but you are crazy as a coconut. No need to spend all that time and money and learn so many new softwares watch videos read manuals etc. Just use hollywood strings vieana or any top orchestral library and when project budget allows it record few live musicians also in the mix to make it feel more organic and thats it. Stop buying any new libraries🤣
my go to library is: "Oh you have no budget for an orchestra? Lets record a quartet in a beautiful concert hall." "Oh you insist on a sampler? Ill give you a phone number of someone who's willing to do it." "Overdubs? Over my dead cold body!" "You REALLY want an orchestra? pay up! I only deal with REAL instruments"
1 player is pretty pricey. 250/hr-500/hr. I'll stick to the libraries for now, but if you have a specific player in mind go right on ahead. I would suggest using uni-students if you go that route. Could end badly, but I've heard good results from my locally uni and your can get like 4 players for a few hours for a $500 budget.
Piracy gives you the best insight what people want and there is a good reason why "lite versions" were appearing, downsampled to 44.1kHz and 16-bit samples and without dry and big reverb samples and from 40GB being reduced to 7-10GB, etc. Companies could have been doing the same, but they are too busy upping each other and participating in a dick measuring contest about which users don't give a shit. They could have been selling those same reduced and light sample libraries for less money, but they are tone deaf for business.
Musesounds is pretty awesome for what it is. I just wish they had a way of using them in a DAW or if they brought in a video sync feature into Musescore for filmscoring that would be awesome.
As hobbyist composer, I have spent way too much money on libraries myself. In my possession I have (amongst others) VSL (which tend to be very 'dry' and upclose sounds), Komplete 13 Ultimate, and 2 orchestra from East West. While I am like yourself, I usually stick with that one library (from East West) because it suits my needs. And sometimes I like to go for a different vibe so I come back to Komplete 13 and their string sessions. The only issue I am currently having, with especially that many sounds to choose from, I totally get lost from time to time to figure out which sounds to use. Back in the days when I was limited with a single daw, and only a few plugins, I tend to be more 'creative' with the sounds that I have. But today, I feel like wandering around a dense forest... and I am totally lost
If you use VSL VI or Synchron-ized, they're at their best when you chose the dry mixer preset and pair them with MIR Pro [3D]. Synchron libraries do have reverb baked into them, of course that depends on whether you find the Synchron hall large enough. But yeah, in the end, it's less about which lib you have and more about how intimately you know it and how good you are at orchestrating. (As it is with all hobbies and skills and art and craft.)
I've found myself loading up basic Midi soundfonts for this very reason. keeps me from going to deep in sound design so i can focus on the writing and arrangement first.
Great video! Spitfire is now beginning to flirt with the subscription model. However, since Christian’s departure from the company it feels like their heart and soul has diminished, if not completely disappeared. You make many valid points here… thank you for your willingness to speak out! Cheers!
Still to this point, if there is any company i might feel like subscribing to, it would be spitfire, as they release enough of varied new content. However, I suspect a spitfire complete subscription, would simply be way too expensive. After them, NI has potential, as when their own ideas run out, they can always license a bunch of 3rd party libraries, to make sure each new iteration comes with enough new stuff. And if it help DAW developers to updating the feature-set continuously, it could make some sense to subscribe to a DAW.
Good points Brian. Still amazed that barely any devs really update their existing products. Yes you cannot capitalize on updates as much as on new releases, but still leaving users with broken products should not be an option.
Yup! Showing that you care about your product even after its release makes me (personally) feel like that company cares about maintaining a good relationship with their customers (as opposed to just getting more money out of them). Which, in my books, is more important than shiney new products every month.
I agree with the sentiment here. My gripe currently, is that some library brands consider themselves composers first. This isn't acceptable anymore and no-one is falling for that boutique artisan rhetoric. You are a SOFTWARE COMPANY. Ensure you're working on latest OS updates, patches etc. Don't leave your libraries to fester. Anyone remember the last update to BBC Symphonic Orchestra? It's still not even fully signed off on operating systems two years old. With the playing-field so level in terms of quality and realism, you'll stand out more by being known for stability, compatibility and excellent support. I'm leaning more and more towards Kontakt libraries as I know NI will regularly be working on this platform.
BBCSO doesn't need to be signed, the Spitfire App does and is. What is annoying is sometimes your presets will disappear from the plugin. That is my only real gripe with the dedicated player.
For us music producers in hip hop, the libraries were just WAY too expensive. I understand quality costs but when each library costs more than the DAW, it’s a hard decision to make. Maybe for you guys getting $2,000+ sync fees, it’s pennies lol but to most music producers not in sync, the prices were the hard obstacle.
There's tons of free alternatives. While I don't make hip hop I do make Electronic music, and there's lots of ways to get good orchestra samples for free or very little. For example, there's a free BBC orchestra, project Sam has 2 versions of the free orchestra, VSL has some real good free stuff, and if you have Kontakt proper there's a fantastic free group of libraries under the Alpine label.
@@rct3isepic Of course it doesn't, but you're misunderstanding the role of the library. The role of the library is for production purposes and you can't get that with cheap libraries.
I stopped buying orchestral libraries years ago. I used to be on the hunt for the best, greatest, most realistic and expressive, etc., and I wish I could get the money I spent while on this quest, haha. After acquiring enough of these things, I realized that they all sound good. As long as you know what you're doing, there's a certain level of quality you can achieve in your mockups and any "major" library can get you there. There is no need for more libraries until some real quantum leap happens that redefines the whole idea of sampling and/or modelling. And I don't see that happening any time soon.
I can't wait for physical moddeling for all instruments to improve with AI. With OpenAI and ChatGPT I could see an AI generated physically modeled orchestra thing being reality. Than I wouldn't need a beast of an SSD to run them. Video games have the same problem as orchestra libraries in that regard.
Actually VSL ticks a lot of points : you can try libraries, you can resell them, they are useful and not niche at all and they stand time very well (Dimension Strings for example) Only complaints : they are quite expensive and yes, keyswitches (I’m fond of KS but not everyone’s cup of tea). Besides, how’s your Open Stage Control project?
Interesting!! Yeah I don’t know why I never got into the VSL world. But they REALLY seem to care about their product and not get carried away by library trends. Sounds like they’re worth the money (even if they’re a little expensive). As for my OSC project, I pretty much dropped all touch screens and moved to more stream decks and shortcuts. I realized I need more tactile feedback. Maybe I’ll come back around one day.
These libraries will take up your SSD storage memory and put a big hole in your wallet. And they're not satisfying to play with the latency they recover if you plan on playing them live. Trust me... I'm very fortunate to have most of a "nest egg" still there after buying like 30 of them on sale... and I gravitate more to synth stuff anyway. BBC symphony orchestra doesn't even have in-tune cellos! It works for horror (I don't mind, and often enjoy, microtonal stuff)... but c'mon, it's supposed to be a one-stop shop library! OT and Spitfire clearly prioritize advertising over developing better plugins that only appealed to me before I bought the full version of Kontakt. Audio software companies have no business developing faulty audio software only kept afloat by the content. These libraries are also a pain to mix, and combining the longs with the staccatos sounds weird. I'm more of a synth/sound design person than a classical/orchestral person anyway, so I could be biased (I've had a lot more fun making crazy wavetable and granular stuff with a sample of a former high school friend's voice I recorded on PhasePlant...) but c'mon... I think these libraries are a poor ROI in general. I have an 8TB SSD on my machine... and only 128GB of free space. And this isn't my only hobby! My main special interest is electronics.
There's pros and cons to all the libraries. I prefer to use libraries that offer control with a UI that I can cope with, even if it requires a bit of time to learn. LASS and MSS are more complicated than most other libraries imo, but that's basically all I use for the majority of all the string work I do and I love them to bits. As long as you're ok with creating a bunch of automation lanes, they do exactly what I need and I think they can sound very convincing. I've also had happy feedback from music supervisors who are extremely critical about things like realism for orchestral work, so to me at least, this is a good sign. A cute feature of going to study orchestration at a formal institution is having libraries to mess about with before deciding to purchase one, as many music schools have a bunch of libraries already installed, and often the teachers will bring a dedicated HD+license key with them to use when giving a class. But obviously the cost of the education like that far outweighs the cost of most libraries...😂 I waited a couple of years before buying any specific libraries, and really "spammed" my teachers and friends beforehand to make sure I knew all about them/try them out at their studios etc. before dropping my cash on anything. Thanks for the video! Really interesting topic, and I definitely agree that orchestral libraries have basically plateaued in the last few years.
Also, on the topic of Try Before You Buy, 8Dio used to do something interesting: release a limited-scale version of a library for a fraction of the price, just so users could get a feel for what it could do. It was fully functional, but with fewer samples (and a range of one octave). Great video btw, I agree with what you are saying and I've noticed the same thing in recent years. I too still get excited when I read about the upcoming BEST THING EVER library, only to find that it's a 60GB legato-only module with 30 mic positions or something of that sort. Companies seem to be putting more effort into putting out more libraries than putting out good-sounding and well-scripted ones.
As hobbyist composer, I admire anyone who can make a living at it. Before retiring from my non-music job 14 months ago, I went crazy buying sample libraries, and other virtual instruments in anticipation of a big drop of income. I spent a lot of money on orchestral libraries from Spitfire and the NI Komplete collection.
If I could do it over, I would buy a Musio perpetual license instead, for the price of one or two expensive Spitfire or Cinesample libraries. I got Musio recently to fill in some of the gaps in my instrument collection. There is a huge number of libraries included. It seems that it doesn't have the full controls to create the highest level of convincing and nuanced mockups for professional composers, but I don't have the skill or desire to do so, now that I understand a little about how much work and knowledge is involved. I should have realized that all I really want is to arrange the songs I write with some beautiful orchestral elements that sound not obviously fake. Of course, since I already own the lovely Spitfire stuff, I will use it, but much of the Musio collection is damn nice too, such as the Tina Guo cellos and the Gina Luciani flutes.
I mostly agree. There are tons of small indie devs out there committed to creating quality libraries, but of course only a few of us can afford to get into the orchestral game. Jasper and Aron have that area pretty well covered from an indie perspective, but the rest of us try to push the envelope in other ways, it’s just hard to break through the noise from the big devs.
Hey who are you referencing here with Jasper and Aron? Thanks
@@joecm Jasper Blunt of Performance Samples, and I don't know who Aron is. Might be the Cinematic dude, I think last name is Banks or something....down in Aussie land.
This video explains why I absolutely respect Jasper Blunk and Performance Samples. Really innovative sampling and just hard work and commitment to quality :)
yea, my fav. string sound is Vista. It has that gritty emotional quality I could never find in other samples. I really wish he had done a viola for his Pacific solo Str. though. And a Bass would be nice.
Modelling is the future of sample libraries. I think sample libraries should be going smaller in terms of size, not bigger. I've slimmed down to a laptop-based setup, running Audio Imperia Nucleus for traditional samples, with Aaron Venture brass and winds and Pianoteq for keys. My template takes up only a third of the RAM on my 16 GB machine and sounds better than anything I had achieved with other sample libraries previously. I'll be investing in only modelled libraries (Sample Modelling, V-Winds/Horns, Aaron Venture), sound design plugins or budgeting to record real players going forward (with this being the end-game goal), but my days of buying traditionally-sampled orchestral (or other) libraries have definitely come to an end. Why do I need 230 GB of drums (Superior Drummer 3), or 200+ GB of just strings with 26 mic positions (Spitfire HZ Strings)? It's not justifiable for me personally, and really isn't pushing the industry forward in terms of technology, or supporting those who are trying to do new things with sampling.
Actually imho AI is the future of sample libraries. I’m pretty sure it won’t take too long until there will be an AI model that can read a score and play it. With singers and everything. Like udio just for written music. The sound quality is not that great yet, but I’m sure it will get better. Gone will be the days of midi programming, can’t wait.
Yes! VWinds/Brass sound fantastic, and are so much easier to produce a natural sounding performance than standard sample libraries, and all without key switches. For the future, I see AI applying a similar nuance of performance as a human would to a set of notes on a page.
Modelled instruments don’t sound that good. Every time someone talks about how great they sound, I have a listen and there’s something off about them. And, that makes sense. There’s so much more to sounds than the physical reproduction of them.
its AI not modelling
@@kimseniorb The original post was about modelling, not AI.
What I want to see much more often in libraries are patches that recognize my playing style and determine which articulation is most appropriate at the moment, resembling the lively playing of a real musician. There's nothing worse than trying to mimic an organic playing style using key switches or many different tracks.
So true, I've been saying this for years. In fact it's always surprised me how developers have managed to stay afloat for so long without selling anything better.
And don't get me wrong, they've been selling new interesting stuff too. But these libraries aren't usually traditional orchestral libraries and aren't definitely the 'big name/big release' they try to build hype about - those big names are ALWAYS traditional orchestral libraries.
I think it depends on what sort of music you want to make. If I want to mock-up a piece that will ultimately be performed by a real orchestra then I'll always use VSL. They seem to be the closest to what you'll hear in a recording studio. If your music is solely studio based and unlikely to be performed by a live ensemble, then use whatever library sounds good to you!
Also, and this applies to all libraries, find out what your samples can do - it will save you money!
My current favourites are the Virharmonic Bohemian series solo instruments. The 'AI' assisted articulation switching and style modes is where all of these libraries and sample players should be headed. So much faster work flow.
probalby zero offset delay too right? this is what all libraries need. i will uninstall CSS because of this.. been pulling out my hair all week
I got the Instant Cello because I saw it on sale. Never heard it. Watch some RUclips reviews and was blown away. Bought it for $50 and boy this thing is WAY ahead of any solo strings I have.
Thanks for taking time to make this, it's stopping buying more libraries I really don't 'need' just because they're on sale.
I have subscribed to EW to try HD2 and so far have had big problems with Violins 1 legato doing some very weird things, for example playing two notes together a semi tone apart 😮. Tech support did respond very quickly but not solved. So far glad i haven't bought it.
A review of HS2 would be great.
Yup. I’m getting the same behaviour in HS2 as well. This is what caught me by surprise when I tried it at first.
They already have such a great HS1 product. Why is HS2 not as good?!
🤦🏻♂️
@@BrianRivlin I have both HS1 and HS2 and what you describe sound like you are trying to place two notes at the same time? The legato works for me in the same way in HS1 and HS2, where you must play a melodic line. None of the legato patches will play polyphonic if you try to play a chord or something
Sorry I didn't make myself clear, when playing the same note over and over say 16ths suddenly one of the notes will sound together with a note a semi tone up😮. When you play a legato line you seem to get two notes sounding together for a moment, long enough to notice. Maybe I'm expecting too much but I've not had this problem with other libraries, lag yes, but not sounding together.
This is why Jasper Blunk and Aaron Sapp are my two favorite devs. They both genuinely care about pushing the art of sampling forward. And their products are really incredible
I couldn't agree more, and not just about orchestral libraries or movie genre. The same is true all across the board.
I limited myself to Omnisphere(+trillian), Falcon, Komplete, Dune3, and EZ Drummer.
No more GAS (gear acquisition syndrome),
So what are your 3 main libraries, and what are your other 2-3 that you use to layer or fill in? Maybe consider making a video giving your recommendations while discussing some more nuance. Which ones do you think play well together? Which increase or improve your workflow? Which sound good to you?
What do you consider to be quality libraries and/or synths/instruments?
Personally, I'm still a huge fan of Omnisphere, Zebra2/Diva, Albion One, Cinebrass, Cineperc, Tina Guo Cello, OT Berlin Woodwinds, Cinematic Studio Series, The Etheras, Oceania Choir, Abbey Road One Foundations (as a supplementary library), BBC Core ($240 on sale was a pretty good deal for an entire orchestra in a box), Albion Solstice, and some of the NI Komplete stuff like Damage, The Giant/Alicia's Keys/Una Corda pianos, Thrill for more aleatoric stuff, and Mysteria. I stopped buying stuff once I got these and a few niche things. Haven't bought a string library in years. The only thing I still want to get at some point is E/W Hollywood Opus, just so I can check out the strings and play with the orchestrator. It's a lot cheaper now compared to what it was at release, and still a lot of value.
On a side note, AI companies such as OpenAI or ElevenLabs and Udio or Suno will probably make Sample libraries, and sample library developers who don't integrate AI, obsolete. Maybe not yet, but in 2-3 years or so, its going to happen because this stuff is moving at an incredible pace. I won't need a sample library when I will be able to tell some AI to add some violins or a chamber orchestra or some choir to the score I wrote, or the melody I hummed.
Some companies like Cinesamples are jumping on the AI bandwagon, but guys like Spitfire are still stuck in the past believing that people are going to be spending 2k on some bs overpriced modular Abbey Road library that nobody actually asked for, or needs, that they claim is the next best thing since slice bread. Spitfire makes some great things, but it also makes complete garbage, and are sometimes completely out of touch. For example, find me a single use case for their Cassette Orchestra. I can't. I haven't seen a single review or a single person who actually made anything with that library. I learned to not buy into any more marketing bs or gas.
BBCSO, Albion One, Abbey Road Two Strings over here. I also got VCSO2 for ethnic texture stuff.
UVI?
For me personally, as someone who has limited time and limited funds, and who isn't even ready to release anything yet, much less make a profit or anything, I think that while getting a library that is "just right" could help boost my track by 1 or 2 percent to the finish line, I have to realize that that 1 or 2 percent might just not be in the budget, time or money wise.
I would much rather just buy one or two libraries I am confident in and I feel will work for most of what I want to attempt and then pour my time, money, and soul into that remaining 98% to make it as good as possible. Especially considering the fact that if I spend too much time and effort on finding the perfect sound or patch, it will actually hurt that remaining 98%, the composition, what I actually like and care about, since I won't have any time or energy left for it.
That's just my perspective though.
It's a very accurate perspective. We forget how limited our time for actual composing is. And by the time you get all the libraries you want, they're obsolete, and better stuff is out. I made a list of all my obsolete libraries, and it was so depressing, even realizing I had never really gotten around to using some of the more expensive ones. Instead, I spent my time earning the money to pay for them, rather than making music. Such a slippery slope for many of us.
Pacific Ensemble Strings is what blew me way most recently. It just sounds like that sound and in a mix, it sounds sooooo good.
600 USD? Holy moly. Will stick with my EW subscription sadly, lol
@@BrofUJu Totally understandable. I got it with Loyalty and Intro and it was like 299 or something, so absolute steal at that price :)
Also, shoutout to another expensive library, Afflatus Strings. Really nice stuff :)
@@BrofUJu pirate it then
@@BrofUJu It was $250 on intro sale
At the end of the day, the very best libraries/instruments for composing with or making music with, are the ones that you HAVE, not the ones you wish you had.
I have Spitfire BBCSO Core. A very good all round library, which I love, and has absolutely made me as a composer. The next logical step for me would be BBCSO Professional, but that will have to wait until the pocket is ready. In the meantime, I will continue to compose and record using BBCSO Core and my MIDI hardware instruments, because those are what I have.
Just wondering how and where you store the libraries? Especially libraries that have VSTi front ends to access the files, SampleScience comes to mind?
10:56. Essential comment ! Myself- I pretty much got everything I needed libraries wise around about 2 years ago. That was the last time I purchased anything (filling in the last gaps in all orchestral sections). The sounds, articulations, realism got pretty much so perfect that IMHO they already reached an apogee of design and sonic demands in the hands of a skilled composer/orchestrator. There’s not much (if anything) one can add to what already existed 2 years ago, so buying “new” products makes zero sense if you’re satisfied with the results you can achieve with what you already have. All it takes now is your own creativity, amount of time (oh yes, it does take time !) you can devote to perfect each and every every line… Careful Hybriding is the key if you want to achieve “your” timber. I doubt if I will ever purchase anything anymore, unless someone creates the way to do your own portamentos between any combination of strings notes (YOUR combinations, with your starting and ending notes, with your tempo etc. NOT the pre-recorded ones with fixed duration and notes).
A question: There’s a lot of focus on large “Hollywood’y” solutions - and several great ones. However, my productions are within “popular music” (not actually pop), typically where string sections would range from a quartet to like 4-3-2-2.
I’ve used partials from an old LASS version, but the mastering of this old product is _very_ bright, showing its age. Could someone suggest a newer’ish library covering smaller sections well?
I arrange “old school” from scratch, so I’m fine without ‘phrases’, combos and the likes. Divisi, good legatos, dynamic control, senz. vib. etc are crucial, though…
Thanks for inputs… 😊
For pop studio stuff I'd recommend CSS. It was recorded with an unconventional setup that makes it not ideal for big sounding cinematic pieces or orchestral music in general but if you mix around the spot/main mics it's surprisingly great at that sound. It does runs, legatos are incredibl still to this day, etc. Way better than other alternatives such as Spitfire Studio Strings (stay away from their Studio series if you can)
You might try the Spitfire Quartet and the Spitfire Chamber sets. I think with attention to detail they can sound really good. I honestly prefer Chamber over their bigger orchestra sounds.
I mix a lot of high budget orchestral scores. Hollywood Strings and CSS are the only two that even come close to live recordings.
Agreed!
Check the Swam modeling instruments. Physical modeling is getting really good, we may be able to leave the samples soon.
I totally agree with you that being able to try a library before buying it would be a game changer. My very first Spitfire library was ... unfortunately ... the Olafur Arnalds library because I had no clue what I was doing. It was a pricey library and certainly for someone out there the exact right library but it was not so for me. I was beyond disappointed and used it only one or two times in my life. This experience kept me from buying any other product from Spitfire again because I am too afraid of spending money on the wrong product.
I relate to your situation 100% coming from around 2010 as well and I hate it lol great video though man! I think Spitfire were the last group I was impressed by.
Kinda curious, by the way... how did you land your first composing job with that TV show?
as a new composer using DAW for 2 yrs now.. i will never buy something with offset delays again.. sure i love the sound of CSS but i can't even play an action strings line of shorts off my keybaord in time.. it's impossible.. i've tried all the tips from vi forums.. nothing fixes it.. CSS control panel , offset your track.. nothing works... i'm switch over to Sample Modelling or SWam very soon..... 2 other youtube composers deleted my comments from saying this... Am i even allowed to have opinions.. i'm very unmotivated by the extremely gatekeepy composing community online.. Everyone telling you how your supposed to sound or what we should buy... and no one mentioning OFFSET DELAYS.. i can't deal with them anymore.. it makes me punch the air and pull own my own hair.. if you catch my drift. Tokyo Scoring Strings WILL play in time.. i never see composers talking about it... like if i would have known about this i would never ever have purchased CSS or CSB.. it's driving me crazy honestly man.. i care about having things work in my midi.. CSS and CSB dont' even match each other's timing .. it makes me cry... i spend a lot of money on them... if only the youtubers who convinced me they were the best would have explained offset delays... i'm literally so upset about this for months now. I was able to get Tokyo Scoring Strings but now i need brass that plays in time.. like i'll have to get Aaron Ventures infinite brass i think. I will come back tommorow see if you reply or delete this comment... everyone deletes my opinions.. i'm starting to dislike the online community.. they pushed Cory over the Edge with all that toxicity on vi forums, i read the entire thing... .. i used to watch him he was the best and honest about things.
That is the problem with CSS. I got BBCSO Pro, Abbey Road Two Iconic Strings, Albion One Colossus and VCSO2 for ethnic stuff. If one can't play the library in, then it has no real life and is only good at offline render. CSS even with 1.7 seems real bad for inputting runs in real-time. Avoid it. Performance samples has a look ahead feature which helps though.
SWAM are more like playing instruments, so you really have to get used to playing with controllers. Yes there is a lot of gatekeeping, and a lot of strange beliefs with no bases in science.
The last orchestra that really surprised me was NotePerformer. It's a synth.
There's a ceiling to what you can do by buying more timbres, and I think we're pretty close to it. As a hobbyist, I got off the train of buying samples and plugins ages ago and re-embraced chiptunes. The professional composer is in more of a bind since they're regularly asked to make their work sound "realistic" (i.e. expensive) but the toolset they're using for that is an imitation, and it has, since the dawn of MIDI, enforced a certain kind of workflow to pursue realism by doing extra work to cover up all the flaws in the samples. Thus, all the arrangements where the sections are layered with percussive instruments and solo voices are limited to amelodic blasts with no dynamics - Hans Zimmer did it and you can too.
I did have thoughts of getting a cheap recorder and playing with that. There's a session instrument for ya.
Last string library that completely impressed me to buy it without hesitation was Spitfire Appassionata Strings. Yeah, it doesn't have shorts or tremelo, but it didn't stop me from improvising with other libraries that I already had to compliment SA like Albion One.
I only occasionally buy intersting fairy dust type sample libraries now like Emergence Audio texture libraries
"We can tell when the product is great - and when it's not"
Amen, brother. So many companies in so many different fields just seem to... not understand this. Beats me.
Omg Thankyou for saying this out!
As someone who "owns" hundreds of these libraries, I definitely agree that they all sound very similar these days. Furthermore, I only rely on 1-3 libraries as you suggest. I often go as far as to render out individual samples and add them into compositions via REAPER's Project Media FX Bay.
Which 3?
Im surprised none of these orchestra vsts have made a plugin with an automatable conductor yet...
As a part time shopaholic I have to say that Spitfire Symphony Orchestra at 280 euros (50% sales) is the best deal. In addition Musio 1 perceptual licence at 200 euros (50% sales every 2-3 months) is a great addition…
So with 500 euros you could do what was impossible a few years ago. The WOW factor these days is the price and not the libraries themselves.
For me, best purchase I ever made is Vflutes from Acoustic Samples. I also own Vbrass and saxes and I have to say I’m pretty impressed and inspired by the level of performance of these libraries.
Just two words here: ICONICA OPUS... yummeeee! Not that hollywoodish "big", but absolutely real and very fun to work with.
Wee correction: Windows XP was released in 2001 (?why do I remember this? Because it’s the only time I switched to windows from Mac - before OSX - because XP gave me a true robust pre-emptive operating system
Thanks for the correction. In my research I searched for what Windows version was released in 2003 and the result was XP. I guess google got it wrong 😂
Weird. When you talked about budgets getting smaller, and deadlines getting shorter... I felt that. See, I'm a CG Animator. And it's fucking brutal for us right now. Everyone wants to exploit us to the moon then immediately fire us. Pixar just had a great purge of employees right as they're promoting Inside Out 2.
I'm a working guy with a family, and I'm getting by working for corporate places like Dell and Microsoft. But it's not just us, all us production artists (composers are Absolutely artists in my opinion) are having to compete and learn to work so damn fast, on our toes with fire leaping at us in order to stay in the game. But we do it because we love it (and also that means having to take a massive paycut if I wanted to quit and get a "real job") SO... At least for me... I'm fucking stuck whether I want to be or not. So I gotta learn, quickly and fast, and always change with the times. At least I enjoy that.
Great points altogether. My go-to orchestral library is still EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold which I licensed in 2011. With its wide selection of articulations, a realistic score is very doable. In this brave new world of AI, I, too believe that modeling will replace sampling. Combined with MPE, I'm optimistic about the potential.
I believe that the main resource that these companies should be looking for is a way to have these libraries with the same or even better competence, but, mainly, occupying much less space in our SSDs and consuming less RAM and processing power. That would be a huge advance. Physical Modeling as it has a gigantic potential, and SWAM has demonstrated this. Nowadays these libraries are gigantic, they require a huge heap of memory and processing, making it impossible for independent composers to assemble their mockups in order to compete with the big ones in the market.
I wonder how the strings built into Logic Pro X compare with Hollywood Strings 1? Has anyone done a side by side comparison?
Logic seems to have most of the articulations covered: so I don't see why I should buy another strings library?
There is a reason nobody talk about logic’s strings. spoiler: they are ass
@@this.is.shashwat Apparently they've got much better in recent years; but I don't have much else to compare them to. The only other string libraries I've used are Muse Sounds, and Music Studio for iPad.
Once you start automating the midi ccs to add vibrato, portamento lirico, etc..., the Logic Pro strings sound pretty good to me.
I'd like someone to explain exactly how they're inferior?
12 minutes to say "samples suck, libraries are expensive, just $$$ musicians"
Basically 🤷🏻♂️
For string sections the best recommendation I can give is: learn to play the violin!!! It will make your tracks waaayyy better!
I started 3 years ago and now I'm slowly getting to the point where I can record parts and layer them over my VSTs. And boy it makes a hell of a difference. Even if you're not the greatest player it sounds so much better and more realistic- especially for all shorter articulations and/or sections where you need to switch the articulation a lot.
Before I started I often didn't even realize how bad those midi strings can sound when you're not completely sure what you're doing- now I hear it.
Yup!! Totally agree. I don’t really play any strings myself, but I do have a violin that I can get passable lines from and layered with good libraries it makes a HUGE difference.
3:19 haha do these great people still post on VI-Controlation (where to ask if someone reads music is rude) ? They have to found an independent forum without anonymous nicknames gatekeeping and mobbing people with “classical” values, and where the moderator doesn’t stop any thread with opinions he doesn’t like. This will be the huge contribution to composers and developers facing professionally REAL problems, and who want something beyond amateur hobbies.
I mean....we should just make one, it is not that difficult to do while spending not a lot of money (just the domain the rest you can do as good as that forum for free and with even more features if you wan), the only problem is time...lots of time......... and commitement, and also the ability to reach the public as well, since VI has a monopoly in the orchestral composing space.
I'm just a hobby musician and as long as that's the case, I would never spend so much money for those libraries. Not because I think they don't deserve it or the product isn't worth that, but I just can't invest so much if I'm not even sure I'll use it that much. So for me personally, the EW subscription is an amazing alternative!
I'm still thinking about getting very niche libraries, like Orchestral Tools Grimm or insanitysamples Haunted Strings 2
You raise a good point. These libraries are tools. And the best time to invest in a tool is when it makes sense to buy it. Not when you want a shiny new toy.
(Although I am very guilty of the latter 😂).
Music making is extremly expencive and stressful😂
lol!! Where did we go wrong?!?
The big problem is, they're all the same...
Also there are free options that can be made to sound far better than they do out of the box, with just a bit of technique and processing.
For example, load up the Cellos and Basses from BBC Discover with the stock sounds play them and they sound like crap.
Now add a notch eq around 2.5khz -2 or 3db, tune the cellos up an octave, add a second bass track, tune it down an octave with the built in down tuner, -6db, add a subtle curve high pass filter around 80hz, and throw ReaLoud on the track with the mix% mapped to the modwheel, add some big reverb. Suddenly you have apocalyptic sounding strings right out of a Zimmer track, you don't even notice the lack of legato on big verby sections as long as you blend the note together a bit with a sustain pedal, but if you need legato strings you can always layer in a solo cello with legato to act as a first chair. Processing and blending is super important to get anything "Zimmer" esque, if you can do it yourself there's no real reason to buy them.
The libraries worth buying are the great all rounders that will lend themselves to the quieter/more traditional orchestration, like BBC Orchestra, Symphonic/Hollywood Orchestra, Nucleus.
Making it sound big and loud isn't worth paying $$$ for. The one exception might be Metropolis, but it doesn't really sound "bigger", just louder and grittier.
V.A.T. on a sample library ! really ? That gets me wondering. It's just sounds and not physical.
V.A.T. on something you can't put your hands on, or have in a box. Then there's the expense of buying a large drive to back all your libraries on, and that's not guaranteed to be 100% safe.
I agree, but even EastWest HS demos never worked for me, if Phoenix is the only official composer for them, he's simply not a good one. I own HS Diamond, but I've found that smaller ensembles like Performance Samples Vista & Pacific Stings sound much more realistic.
Great Video! Very Concise and to the point!
I think in 5 years, Ai will model any instrument in any way you want it to sound in any context, matching any movie soundtrack mix feel you'd like to imitate and more... Libraries will be extinct eventually (also real live orchestras in the business I'd say).
Neural DSP has a 14-day free trial on all of their plugins and it’s a banger
Maybe the solution is for composers to form a union in solidiarity with orchestras? Get studios to pay for the real thing?
I just love UVI Soundware's. I don't care if they're "the best" They sound perfect to me and I prefer using Falcon over that weird East/West interface. Also, their word builder for the vocal libraries suck. Man, we're in an age where I can throw a rock at high quality text-to-speech/speech-to-speech services. Just update it, dang it
I really dont think that modelling is THE future. It probably has a place in a full orchestral template. But the sound of sampled instruments is just so extremley realistic that I personally don't need anything more versatile than that. At some point the amount of work you need to adjust every single parameter in the modelled instrument becomes so time consuming that it's not worth it. It sound worse and it's more work. I don't get it. AI is different in that case because it could make things faster, better and more versitile at the same time. The only problem with ai is that you need so much training data that it becomes almost impossible to make an ultimate scoring ai. All the big companys would have to combine and make one epic product for this to work. Otherwise it will take a pretty long time for ai to have a place in samples libraries. And for most instruments ai will probably not be better. It will just be different. With things like choir this is a different story I think. Because everyone needs voices and voices are so unique that ai will probably play a big role in that regard. People are happy with what they have and it's already extremley easy to make music with all of the librarys we have that ai will just not be a very big market in music.
That's true, which is why I think a.i., will bring something unexpected, rather than the obvious attempts at improving virtual instruments. Who's going to put out the cash while they already have a bunch of sample libraries? Until they get us over the key switching, and limitations of loading various articulations...having a string player on a single track who can play any articulation seamlessly, as well as any nuance of legato, slur and dynamic, all by the a.i. player's own interpretation of your score.
The big breakthrough will be a complete virtual orchestra with individual players who can read a score. Plus a new scoring system for amateurs to communicate their ideas to the Virtual Orchestra players and conductor. No need for separate tracks [unless you want them].
Big YES for Hollywood Strings 2 review.
Hi, Brian, I tend to disagree when you say that even a poorly played cello does better than a virtual one.
Yes, there is the richness, the multi layer details, all the nuances, etc. But, well, if you don't have at least a decent performance, a virtual tool may offer better results. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
Soundpaint is pretty innovative actually. But agreed with this video !
Nice FL Studio Cameo 🙂
Does Nativ really have the sound of a Stradivarius violin?
They do!
And it sounds… ok…? 🤷🏻♂️
(Just my opinion)
@@BrianRivlin It sounds really bad IMO. Even the Performance Samples freebie from a few years ago sounds way better😅
Cool - Honest, insightful
Performance samples is currently the most interesting sample library person out there, his stuff is dynamic and incredible.
Good point!
Musio is great, especially for a broke musician like me. Also 8DIO is a great value 🎹🎹😎😎
Yup! Musio is (in my opinion) one of the better values out there if you don’t already have a big arsenal of libraries already (or if you’re on a budget).
Congratulations for this video!!!!
How about AI-VSTi instruments that can generate studio-quality orchestral riffs at your command. That's coming soon... Stay tuned.
130 gigs to download, and when you do, it looks small, like under half the size of a regular category for EastWest. I love EastWest though, I know of nothing better. I love ComposerCloud.
I just got the 8Dio bundle
Cinematic studio just produce few Library. then keep updating it ... oppose spitfire...
Spot on.
orchestral libraries and analog emulation in VSTs.... too much that's not different enough from it's competitors
Some irrelevant side note trivia: Windows XP was released in 2001, not 2003 ;)
You are correct 🙈
Is AI going to make all this hand wringing over sample libraries irrelevant? "Epic" scores just a function of well-chosen prompts?
11:46 ’Hou... what’s that library?”, well, that means the library isn’t that perfect: the good question, IMO, would be ”who’s the conductor?”
Fair point.
Although, you definitely don’t want it the other way around where you record players and have one of your friends ask “what’s that library?” 😂
About to buy 8dio
Wouldn't Orchestral Tools / Spitfire be considered as high end?
It would. Yet I still find other smaller companies make better and more useful products. (But again this is personal taste and use cases).
@@BrianRivlin What smaller companies would those be? Those new to this are often looking for recommendations. Now I know what pitfalls to look out for, but what are some sample libraries worth a look?
Maybe, but their quality control is super low, except for Abbey Road Orchestra which is pretty expensive and ultimately doesn't bring a lot new to the table
First world problems.
Lol it's true
Yeeees.finally someone has publicly told the truth about HS2!
Preach
VSL allows you to demo their libraries and are also refundable.
I came into this kinda expecting to give it a thumbs down. But this is actually a pretty based take.
Don't laugh - but I LOVE Insanity Samples Cello One
oAs you age, you can hear less and less on the highest frequences Perhaps your brain is simply remembering how Hollywood Strings used to sound to you, but modern strings have no place in your auditory memory.
2:25 "Behaved well it did?" You mean any lib running on the earliest versions of play? This history lesson is already full of holes.
I watched whole video because you are hilarious but you are crazy as a coconut. No need to spend all that time and money and learn so many new softwares watch videos read manuals etc. Just use hollywood strings vieana or any top orchestral library and when project budget allows it record few live musicians also in the mix to make it feel more organic and thats it. Stop buying any new libraries🤣
You know what’s the crazy thing? I LITERALLY bought three new libraries today!!! 😂🤦🏻♂️
Blah blah blah blah😂😂
my go to library is:
"Oh you have no budget for an orchestra? Lets record a quartet in a beautiful concert hall."
"Oh you insist on a sampler? Ill give you a phone number of someone who's willing to do it."
"Overdubs? Over my dead cold body!"
"You REALLY want an orchestra? pay up! I only deal with REAL instruments"
I think paying for real musicians would quickly outpace the cost of a sample library.
@@sunnibird Yes, if your task is to save money for your clients.
However my task as an arranger/orchestrator was to make them money.
1 player is pretty pricey. 250/hr-500/hr. I'll stick to the libraries for now, but if you have a specific player in mind go right on ahead. I would suggest using uni-students if you go that route. Could end badly, but I've heard good results from my locally uni and your can get like 4 players for a few hours for a $500 budget.
Piracy gives you the best insight what people want and there is a good reason why "lite versions" were appearing, downsampled to 44.1kHz and 16-bit samples and without dry and big reverb samples and from 40GB being reduced to 7-10GB, etc. Companies could have been doing the same, but they are too busy upping each other and participating in a dick measuring contest about which users don't give a shit. They could have been selling those same reduced and light sample libraries for less money, but they are tone deaf for business.
Who knew Charles Manson was an expert on modern music technology ??
😮
Musesounds . I mean: how they were able to achieve what they did is still amazing to me!
Musesounds is pretty awesome for what it is. I just wish they had a way of using them in a DAW or if they brought in a video sync feature into Musescore for filmscoring that would be awesome.
As hobbyist composer, I have spent way too much money on libraries myself. In my possession I have (amongst others) VSL (which tend to be very 'dry' and upclose sounds), Komplete 13 Ultimate, and 2 orchestra from East West. While I am like yourself, I usually stick with that one library (from East West) because it suits my needs. And sometimes I like to go for a different vibe so I come back to Komplete 13 and their string sessions.
The only issue I am currently having, with especially that many sounds to choose from, I totally get lost from time to time to figure out which sounds to use. Back in the days when I was limited with a single daw, and only a few plugins, I tend to be more 'creative' with the sounds that I have. But today, I feel like wandering around a dense forest... and I am totally lost
If you use VSL VI or Synchron-ized, they're at their best when you chose the dry mixer preset and pair them with MIR Pro [3D]. Synchron libraries do have reverb baked into them, of course that depends on whether you find the Synchron hall large enough.
But yeah, in the end, it's less about which lib you have and more about how intimately you know it and how good you are at orchestrating. (As it is with all hobbies and skills and art and craft.)
I've found myself loading up basic Midi soundfonts for this very reason. keeps me from going to deep in sound design so i can focus on the writing and arrangement first.
Great video! Spitfire is now beginning to flirt with the subscription model. However, since Christian’s departure from the company it feels like their heart and soul has diminished, if not completely disappeared. You make many valid points here… thank you for your willingness to speak out! Cheers!
Still to this point, if there is any company i might feel like subscribing to, it would be spitfire, as they release enough of varied new content. However, I suspect a spitfire complete subscription, would simply be way too expensive. After them, NI has potential, as when their own ideas run out, they can always license a bunch of 3rd party libraries, to make sure each new iteration comes with enough new stuff. And if it help DAW developers to updating the feature-set continuously, it could make some sense to subscribe to a DAW.
Spitfire has this labs subscription thing which won't include any of their valuable libraries, but new ones which don't exist yet. That's what I read.
Good points Brian. Still amazed that barely any devs really update their existing products. Yes you cannot capitalize on updates as much as on new releases, but still leaving users with broken products should not be an option.
Yup! Showing that you care about your product even after its release makes me (personally) feel like that company cares about maintaining a good relationship with their customers (as opposed to just getting more money out of them).
Which, in my books, is more important than shiney new products every month.
I agree with the sentiment here. My gripe currently, is that some library brands consider themselves composers first. This isn't acceptable anymore and no-one is falling for that boutique artisan rhetoric. You are a SOFTWARE COMPANY. Ensure you're working on latest OS updates, patches etc. Don't leave your libraries to fester. Anyone remember the last update to BBC Symphonic Orchestra? It's still not even fully signed off on operating systems two years old. With the playing-field so level in terms of quality and realism, you'll stand out more by being known for stability, compatibility and excellent support. I'm leaning more and more towards Kontakt libraries as I know NI will regularly be working on this platform.
BBCSO doesn't need to be signed, the Spitfire App does and is. What is annoying is sometimes your presets will disappear from the plugin. That is my only real gripe with the dedicated player.
For us music producers in hip hop, the libraries were just WAY too expensive.
I understand quality costs but when each library costs more than the DAW, it’s a hard decision to make.
Maybe for you guys getting $2,000+ sync fees, it’s pennies lol but to most music producers not in sync, the prices were the hard obstacle.
Just pirate it lol
There's tons of free alternatives. While I don't make hip hop I do make Electronic music, and there's lots of ways to get good orchestra samples for free or very little. For example, there's a free BBC orchestra, project Sam has 2 versions of the free orchestra, VSL has some real good free stuff, and if you have Kontakt proper there's a fantastic free group of libraries under the Alpine label.
@@rct3isepic None of those can even hold a candle to CSS and Spitfire Chamber Strings
@HieuAnNguyen-qd9oq the library doesn't make the Composer. You can compose good music on any of the ones I just mentioned. And it's not illegal
@@rct3isepic Of course it doesn't, but you're misunderstanding the role of the library. The role of the library is for production purposes and you can't get that with cheap libraries.
I stopped buying orchestral libraries years ago. I used to be on the hunt for the best, greatest, most realistic and expressive, etc., and I wish I could get the money I spent while on this quest, haha. After acquiring enough of these things, I realized that they all sound good. As long as you know what you're doing, there's a certain level of quality you can achieve in your mockups and any "major" library can get you there. There is no need for more libraries until some real quantum leap happens that redefines the whole idea of sampling and/or modelling. And I don't see that happening any time soon.
I can't wait for physical moddeling for all instruments to improve with AI. With OpenAI and ChatGPT I could see an AI generated physically modeled orchestra thing being reality. Than I wouldn't need a beast of an SSD to run them. Video games have the same problem as orchestra libraries in that regard.
Actually VSL ticks a lot of points : you can try libraries, you can resell them, they are useful and not niche at all and they stand time very well (Dimension Strings for example)
Only complaints : they are quite expensive and yes, keyswitches (I’m fond of KS but not everyone’s cup of tea).
Besides, how’s your Open Stage Control project?
Interesting!!
Yeah I don’t know why I never got into the VSL world. But they REALLY seem to care about their product and not get carried away by library trends.
Sounds like they’re worth the money (even if they’re a little expensive).
As for my OSC project, I pretty much dropped all touch screens and moved to more stream decks and shortcuts. I realized I need more tactile feedback.
Maybe I’ll come back around one day.
I’m satisfied with EW composer cloud ☁️
These libraries will take up your SSD storage memory and put a big hole in your wallet. And they're not satisfying to play with the latency they recover if you plan on playing them live. Trust me... I'm very fortunate to have most of a "nest egg" still there after buying like 30 of them on sale... and I gravitate more to synth stuff anyway.
BBC symphony orchestra doesn't even have in-tune cellos! It works for horror (I don't mind, and often enjoy, microtonal stuff)... but c'mon, it's supposed to be a one-stop shop library!
OT and Spitfire clearly prioritize advertising over developing better plugins that only appealed to me before I bought the full version of Kontakt. Audio software companies have no business developing faulty audio software only kept afloat by the content.
These libraries are also a pain to mix, and combining the longs with the staccatos sounds weird.
I'm more of a synth/sound design person than a classical/orchestral person anyway, so I could be biased (I've had a lot more fun making crazy wavetable and granular stuff with a sample of a former high school friend's voice I recorded on PhasePlant...) but c'mon... I think these libraries are a poor ROI in general. I have an 8TB SSD on my machine... and only 128GB of free space. And this isn't my only hobby! My main special interest is electronics.
There's pros and cons to all the libraries. I prefer to use libraries that offer control with a UI that I can cope with, even if it requires a bit of time to learn. LASS and MSS are more complicated than most other libraries imo, but that's basically all I use for the majority of all the string work I do and I love them to bits.
As long as you're ok with creating a bunch of automation lanes, they do exactly what I need and I think they can sound very convincing. I've also had happy feedback from music supervisors who are extremely critical about things like realism for orchestral work, so to me at least, this is a good sign.
A cute feature of going to study orchestration at a formal institution is having libraries to mess about with before deciding to purchase one, as many music schools have a bunch of libraries already installed, and often the teachers will bring a dedicated HD+license key with them to use when giving a class. But obviously the cost of the education like that far outweighs the cost of most libraries...😂
I waited a couple of years before buying any specific libraries, and really "spammed" my teachers and friends beforehand to make sure I knew all about them/try them out at their studios etc. before dropping my cash on anything.
Thanks for the video! Really interesting topic, and I definitely agree that orchestral libraries have basically plateaued in the last few years.
Also, on the topic of Try Before You Buy, 8Dio used to do something interesting: release a limited-scale version of a library for a fraction of the price, just so users could get a feel for what it could do. It was fully functional, but with fewer samples (and a range of one octave).
Great video btw, I agree with what you are saying and I've noticed the same thing in recent years. I too still get excited when I read about the upcoming BEST THING EVER library, only to find that it's a 60GB legato-only module with 30 mic positions or something of that sort.
Companies seem to be putting more effort into putting out more libraries than putting out good-sounding and well-scripted ones.
New products by Performance Samples still impress me after all these years. I also love how imperfect they sound.
Imperfect is where life and realism lives IMO.
And yes, their proof of concept videos for upcoming are very promising!