Why Did The $500 Allis Chalmers 210 Engine Seize?
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- Опубликовано: 25 фев 2023
- After some pretty extensive research and diagnosis, we're fairly confident that we know why the freshly overhauled 426ci engine from the #AllisChalmers Two-Ten tractor seized...
Watch the original overhaul video:
• This Is Why You Don't ...
Watch the engine removal video:
• The $500 Allis Chalmer...
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Make sure you take a look at the entire playlist, to get the back story on this engine! ruclips.net/p/PLgKs8wgBcfDy8zKYeeW4iacMRxi3I1PUH
Definitely a crotch hat problem, Dad might need to order a few extra, just in case. lol
Have the radiator rodded out and change the thermostat
I don't know much about engines, but I know a lot about logic and reason, and this was calm, logical, reasoned - forensic even. To me, the one thing that stood out was the fact that the pump, as installed, was 180 degrees "out of phase" (my term - as I said, I am not an engine expert) and thus keyed off of a different cylinder than normal.
Any time you have something that's not normal, and you compensate by doing something else that's not normal - to me that's always a risk because you think you've entirely compensated, but perhaps there's some unspoken assumption in how the normal component works that you overlooked/didn't know about. Also, even if it works, it's basically a trap waiting to be sprung later on, if you (or someone else) works on the engine and forgets or doesn't know about these compensating abnormalities.
So, it may have nothing to do with what caused the problem on this engine, but I would still say it's undesirable and it's good that the pump is being rebuilt to normal specs - it eliminates a possible future failure mode.
You need a good set of gauges ( coolant and oil pressure). Like this comment to help with the algorithm to Help with the rebuild.
I do not machine anything. I do not like useless banter. THANK YOU for speaking when it is relevant and adding good, solid information to the video!
I love when people troubleshoot the right way. Fixing the symptoms is easy enough, but finding the root cause is absolutely critical and it's exactly what you guys are doing. 10/10.
Step one: go back to the last "repair " that got done. 😁
It could have been bad parts I had 7out of 8 spark t bad
Have had bad parts. In a cat 3406 where pistons. Blew out under the compression rings
I hear you. I watched a truck get 3 instrument clusters get put in over a year and a half time, not once did they question why it was happening. Just treat the symptom.
Yes! It’s so refreshing to see diagnostics being done without dogma and ego. Any time I hear a technician say “I do it this way because it’s the way I’ve always done it” or “it’s the way I was taught” and they can’t explain the “why” is a well thought out, concise manner, I look for another technician. The world needs more JAMSI’s and Eric O’s.
It was absolutely amazing and incredibly humbling to hear your dad talk about 'Hey, you may have been doing it wrong for 40 years' and willing to learn... we need more of that in this world.
You might want to add some Fleetguard DCA4 to the cooling system it forms a film on the liner that slows down cavitation erosion on the liners and look at using a remote deaeriation tank / fill to the cooling system to purge intrained air out of the system.
I thought the same thing,, good man right there
I agree with Jim, I do repairs that are more technical today and stand back and say: What if, and question everything. There’s a lot of variables in running an engine. I know one thing, when my Jaguar needs rebuilding, I’m crating her up and sending it down I80. Thank you for your wonderful and informed video’s.
@rossilake3430 Very good comment. I agree with you also
I tell my buddy that every time he says it.
Hello from Newfoundland Canada. Im a retired Heavy Equipment mechanic and I also do some machining. Watched this video, with great interest. many years ago I done an inframe on a DT466 in an International truck. Within 50 miles of engine use, it was starting to seize, let the engine rest then it would restart and when at temp begin to stick. Got the truck back and removed the head and base. It took a bit of head scratching before the problem was seen. The problem was fuel related. #5 piston spray pattern was way out of sorts. Apparently when the injectors were redone at the fuel shop, there was an incorrect part put in that injector, as they say! Reassembled the engine, it wore the truck out.
As for Oring lube on the liners, I always used liquid dish detergent, such as Sunlight brand. Dish soap was always considered a trade off. Some orings were not oil friendly, while the one next to it could be oil friendly. Soap was always a sure bet.
Sorry I am 11 months late. Living in St. Philips nl
As a fellow tractor mechanic, I appreciate seeing y'all struggle as well
This may be my favorite JAMSI video yet. Having your proud work blow up in your own face is never fun, but the clarity of thought and exposition in this postmortem is just incredible. I think a lot of scientists, engineers, and technologists could benefit to watch this video. Bravo.
I'll second this. Very detailed. Open and not closed minded. Pops is a wealth of knowledge and so humble !
was that just great .
i have to agree, when you have skin in the game and things go bad, yeah you get moments of clarity. in a way , its a good way to learn.
I love how you guys very gently told all the internet experts to bug off.. keep on truckin and get that tractor back to work!!! good work and good luck!
30 years as a diesel tech, those pistons are definitely damaged from timing advance. I've been in your shoe's on an inframe case 540 engine. The pump was rebuilt at the same time and set up wrong. I had to do the job again as a come back at 22.7 hours, spent 2 weeks trying to figure out what I did wrong. Sent the pump out and found out it was wayyyy advanced. You guys are on the right track get the pump right and put it back together.
That was my first thought also,,, disassembled a few like there's and that was the issue....
I appreciate your honesty making this public. Not every engine builder would have went public.
My dad is in the business of rebuilding injectors/injector pumps and i did it as well for a couple of years and have seen this exact problem caused by injection timing being to advanced so i would say that this is 100% the issue
Then why are some cylinders o.k. and others are showing signs of injector failure ?? These guys don't have a clue !
We dont wanna hear that. Bring data
@@georgepruitt637 you rarely get failure on all cylinders simultaneously also varying injector condition might have contributed
@@negromalunch what do you want me to do go back in time a take pictures of previous examples
"These guys don't have a clue!".......No shit man, they literally said that in the video.
I work on complex cloud based IT systems and I have found when it comes to root cause, it’s usually something simple or a few simple things failing together. Love the parallels
When fixing cars and tractors I constantly tell myself "KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID"
Yo I'm an ex diesel mechanic turned software engineer and I find the parallels allll the tiime
Yup even in my new field of large scale commercial construction its same way. Its usually the little things that snowball
@@captaintoyota3171 those happy little accidents that turn into a caterpillar telehandler sitting on top of some schmucks car after falling from the top of a building under construction are just the "best."
Or... someone rebuilds a component without your knowledge and then just goes 🤷
What you and your dad are doing for the farming community who do their own mechanic work is greatly appreciated!! Your build series has been AMAZING! The diagnostic and troubleshooting information about why this failure occurred is top notch! ! I watched all your videos on the Allison.. keep up the good work!!
LOL, you do realise people pay for the work. It's not like they are a charity.
@Cheepchipsable Apparently you’re not educated enough to understand the comment, There has been major legal battles over the right to repair within the farming industry as well as others!
Having been involved in performing root cause analysis for big engineering problems, I can say that you two have covered this about as thoroughly as possible, so well done for that!
It's also just amazing to listen to two experts in their field discuss the problem and work through it.
My background is electrical, so while I have a working understanding of engines and machining, this stuff definitely isn't in my wheelhouse. But you two make it all very accessible, and I understood 99% of what you discussed.
Keep up the great work!
This is how troubleshooting is done in order to find the root cause. Lots of symptoms to pick through but doing it right takes time and skill. Well done, fellas.
Tough brake looking forward to the solution
Man, you guys really do an excellent job. It's hard in this day and age to put it lightly. Like you said no hard feelings with the injection pump shop but that's extremely unfortunate you lost that information because I am right on board with you. The pump is to blame here. Unfortunately it's like this with everything. I'm a heavy equipment mechanic and I cannot get any other shop local to me to help me anymore than I can help myself. You guys went through it with your crane and your doors and your new shop. There are just not many people out there right now that are really willing to take the extra time and do failure analysis and go the extra mile, and it's really hard not to get discouraged dealing with it.
I used to do things on engines (troubleshooting) on seaships...
No parts normally and no shops....
Succes....
definitely that technician was not to blame, but that is also what i kind of do not like about huge shops that work by that system: you talk to sales person that absolutely does not know about anything how it works, he is barely payed enough, and is not actually taught was processes go on in the workshop, or wherever, and all he has to do is fill by writing a form from what HE got and understood from the customer, then the technician has to interpret that kind of maybe misleading form, and he has no connection to the customer except through in turn filling a form and sending it to the proper person that in turn will call the customer...had they been in direct contact, and the technician did not have so much work to do BEFORE getting to their pump, so that they could be around/still available to quickly talk, they would have had a greater result. and i am not attacking that shop in particular at all, as i said, i hate that system in general,be it in other shops of the same type, or huge chain mechanic shops, and you see a lot of those videos about mechanics working there deciphering what the salesperson scribbled, that is by no means enough text, like there some times are less than 60 words, really? a normal conversation with the customer had it happened, excluding the non important part of small talk, would easily be past 1000 words, plus, the mechanic can easily ask questions directly for clarification, ... well, at that scale, it might be a more time efficient way maybe for those big shops, but it is definitely not the better,
Failure analysis is key learning tool as you don't ever wonder why it works for very long, why it didn't work is the the long term puzzle
@@Qwertyuiop-wg5xu .
I agree with timing. By the look of that piston your spray was out of the bowl. I destroyed a Cummins BT6 marine engine by early injection and the top of the piston looked very familiar.
Blown away by this walk through on diagnosis. Thanks for taking the time to make this. So many different ways to do build. If your not learning you aren't building/breaking! Keep up the great work
That cleaning guy is always getting into all sorts of stuff...
Right…
I would be checking the spray pattern of your injectors. On those early engines fuel injection started as early as 40 degrees BTDC. It does not start to burn until the crank is less than 5 degrees BTDC as the compression is not high enough. A bad injector that sprays fuel to wide can wash the oil off the cylinder walls causing high wear,scoring and extra heat!
Agree 100%
It fires off almost instantly otherwise you'd see heaps of smoke due to non atomized fuel.
Timing for a low rpm DI engine is generally between 15-25⁰ btdc, they don't need 30+.
The burn is high on the bowl but are they the same diameter bowls as stock?
That might be where the problem lies as the nozzles weren't replaced according to the earlier vid
@@lindenmartin2734 I was wonder if there’s different injector nozzle tips for turbo/non-turbo applications (w/ different spray angles).
I’m 100% in agreement on fuel spray or timing being the cause of failure. Also need to double check nozzle protrusion before reassembly.
@@dadsgarage738 usually it's only the orifice size or number of holes that will change but if they ran a larger dia bowl on a turbo version they'd likely have a wider spray angle to suit
Great tutorial. All of us more "mature" fellows are always learning. I applaud that observation. So much has changed and developed over the decades. This is a fun and enlightening video. I am truly impressed how you two work so well together. A great team. Be good. Stay safe. Wishing you a deluxe day!
I realize there is no turbo, but maybe fit a pyrometer in that exhaust to monitor the temp next go around. Never can have too much data Good work guys, love watching your stuff!
It is turbocharged, you'll see it in the previous video
@@aardvarklet Yeah, it's turbo charged and I'd definitely add an EGT gauge to make sure it doesn't burn up again.
That's a good point. It may have run lean on low fuel pressure.
@@roballan4944 Good point!
@@roballan4944 It's a diesel there is no such thing as running lean. Diesel RPM and power is controlled by fuel flow, not fuel and air like in a gasoline engine. Less fuel, lower rpm there is no lean, just over fueling. The air volume ingested is constant and only changes with engine RPM and boost pressure.
I think you guys are on the right track. Years ago, building IH 361-407 engines, we ran into issues just like you guys are having. We would try to build them on the tighter side of spec. It took along time to figure out that it was the injection pump causing the issue. After taking to many people one guy asked if the injector spray pattern was high on the combustion bowl, which it was. Pump wasn't advancing like it was supposed to and the injectors were spraying across the top of the pistons. Ever since then we have the pumps done by a good diesel shop and haven't had issues since. For the sleeves and pistons coming assembled I was told by a Reliance rep that they are done like that for shipping and should be taken apart cleaned and inspected.
Completely agree with what the reliance rep said! Been told the same thing.
That 361-407 is not an engine you can cut any corners on, and expect it to live….as it sounds like you well know!
Even using Detroit Diesel factory parts in a 12V71 the rule was take everything and clean it. And in my case, I also soaked the pistons in oil before installing them. Results were that we ran them for 14,000 hours before I left and they were still running like new. Never worked on an A-C Diesel but have on IH, JD, Cummins, DD, FM, Bedford, Nordberg, Ford, and others over the last 50 years. When working on the engines everything was set to the minimum specs possible for increased life and by the books.
Seeing coolant on the top of the head on this engine that is clean says there is another problem. If the coolant is there from a bad bottom O-ring, it should be found in the oil also. That wasn't the case. This looks more like there was a head bolt that had a leak around it and the coolant got to the top of the head climbing the bolt. What sealant was used on the head bolts when the engine was assembled? Was the engine run and then checked after a couple hours to see if everything was still in spec as far as tightness? Diesel fuel is far less likely to cause scoring than water/coolant in a cylinder as Diesel fuel is a lubricant. Did anyone use Ether when first starting the engine?
@@gravelydon7072 I'm no diesel guy but I was wondering about diesel washing down a cylinder since it lubricates. Gasoline is a solvent so it washes down cylinders but diesel seems like it would be much easier on cylinder walls. Do they tell you to check the ring gap after the sleeves are installed? Kinda looked like they checked them before they were installed in the block.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 With the Detroits and all the others I worked on the gaps were checked with the liners/sleeves installed. There is a bit of dimensional change due to the pressure on them from a block. You also have to do it with the rings in a couple of places as the bores of a sleeve can change shape a little. Detroits had little pressure on them so not all that big a problem for them.
Excellent video guys. My knowledge says timing was to advanced by burn spots on pistons. That alone would have concentrated heat in those areas. If it would have sprayed in a little later it would have made more swirl out the fuel with the piston bowl and more evenly disturbed the heat. Don't gap rings more than spec it will just make a oil burner for life. Another thing I would check and I may be wrong as I have never worked on a Allis, is injection lines diameter. If any were replaced and possibly a smaller diameter, causing even more advanced injection. I learned this the hard way on a rough running IH DT436 had a couple of after market lines in stalled that were smaller causing earlier injection on those cylinders. Make certain by pump shop that vop. and injector spray tip angle are correct. If you can source a diesel timing light I highly recommend it. I find these pumps off a lot now days just from being rebuilt multiple times. For cooling systems I install coolant filters on every thing I rebuild, it not only keeps system clean but adds additives to protect liners. Keep up the clean professional work guys!
I had that issue with an XN6 Peugeot, gas, the 4 lines were tuned for each cylinder, and thus numbered, if out of sequence, would miss noticeably. I don't think the factory service manual clarified this issue either.
Bump!
This is one of the most humble and enjoyable channels I look forward to seeing new video releases on.
And I also love how you guys aren't afraid to ask questions and aren't afraid to question your own work that definitely show his pride that is very rarely seen from people now and days
Definitely get your injectors rechecked as well. Worked at an ag shop the last 3 years and we have had issues with some of our rebuilt injectors coming back not right from the injector shop. We put a rebuilt set in a fresh rebuilt engine with a fresh pump and it was not running correct from the get go. Through diagnostics we were narrowed it down to injectors or pump. Pulled injectors and they were not right. Pressures were off and spray pattern was not great. Had a couple other sets not check out right even though they were rebuilt. We now double check every set of injectors before putting them in and if not correct send them back. With that spray pattern shown on the piston I would definitely be rechecking those.
This is why this channel is amazing , being so transparent about the problems u run into. Good luck on your engine build I'm confident it'll be right this time!!
I am a bobcat mechanic in Australia and still I believe that diesels can be really hard to troubleshoot i have had injectors that have started knocking i have had owners who simply don't have the time I have changed injectors and even had times where we have put liners in the freezer and heated a block overnight to change one piston and liner but you guys are giving a really great example of what to and not to do.
I just love the way you work. Talking and finding the problem from start to end. I am from Poland and for me is awesome to look how real technik experts works. Can't wait next video.
Interesting. I find this series to be the best so far. I highly enjoy the process of having a problem and having to go through the sequence of ruling out any potential issues to find the answer. Once you got the tip on the injection pattern on the piston, then you read that article that said exactly what your issues were, it was like finding a hidden puzzle piece. Really cool.
I agree, I don't miss a video, and I think it is the best. I also believe that they do the best as they can. I trust their work and them
This makes me even more comfortable to bring you my 5.3 truck motor in a year or so for a rebuild. Nice to see the thought process all laid out here, and the obvious honesty. Thanks.
This is your best video. So much knowledge, experience, and humility between you two. Best engine diagnosis video I have ever seen.
I have almost no knowledge of engines and tuning, but this is fantastic to watch. I work in molecular biology and our experiments and equipment need diagnosing all the time, and it's great to see y'all working through this smart and educated- that's what always works for me and I love it. Learned a lot of interesting things about engines and I've got a list of interesting engine concepts to Google, so I'm leaving a happy camper 👍
If y’all need old Allis Chalmers parts, look up Robert Borneman out of Edson, Kansas. My uncle passed on and he inherited hundreds of AC combines and tractors. Thank y’all for the awesome videos!
I think you guys are definitely on the right path with the injection timing . Hope you get it fixed
If the one cylinder is showing the early injection...I'd think all would be if it were how the pump was built maybe out of time. If the pump is injecting each at the same time...but some are spraying at different times then you have an injector issue most likely. They can test fine on a static tester but be different under heavy load and might be happening here.
It strikes me that the pump would affect all cylinders equally. But how to be sure? Looking forward to the result of the rebuild.
@@bobflannagan7262 It just scored first cylinders with worst cooling.
If you time it 180 out and run the engine 4 cylinders are in time perfect 2 are out of time by a small margin but that will cause your problem Lean is hot Love the content
@@markmonfee1478wrong, lean is cold on a diesel.
Rich is hot
I think y'all are on the right track with the fuel timing. Y'all have the right attitude for looking for the original problem and moving forward. Thank you for the great videos.
Great to see mechanics who investigate their failures thoroughly, don't blame others and learn to improve.
Great autopsy guys, i had a similar failure on 2.5Ltr Land Rover engine years ago, never got to the bottom of it but i was convinced the injection pump i had overhauled at the time of the engine rebuild was the cause...While your going to the trouble of having the injection pump rebuilt have the injectors double checked too...Get the specialist to confirm the nozzle numbers are 100% correct for that engine/fuel system as there's 100's if not 1000's of different types of nozzles and they all have different characteristics such as spray pattern, angle, number of orifices, crack off pressure etc etc....
Hi guys. Something to consider. The original Cummins B engines in the Doge pickup would seize/score the #6 and some times the #5 pistons if the coolant was lost. Also aluminum pistons. The most damage in your engine is to the rear 5 & 6 cylinders I would be looking at the water pump/cooling system. Disassemble the water pump and check the impeller and the impeller to volute clearances. Make sure the impeller did not slip on the shaft. I have received Allis water pumps that were not assembles properly. Once reassembled check cooling system pressure. Cummins 855 is 30 psi. I would not expect that for your engine but it gives you and idea of what should be there. Put a gauge in the block coolant drain port.
The damage to the liner O-rings is normal with a seized piston failure. I do not see anything wrong with your O-rings or how you installed them. Using the wrong lub to install will show up in the long term not in a new engine. The o-rings will usual come out swelled if the lub was wrong or engine oil in the coolant.
The rust on the liners is normal but you should be using the red diesel antifreeze. The diesel antifreeze has SCA additive to protect the cylinder liners from rust and the issues caused by cavitation erosion. The diesel antifreeze did not exist until the 80s.
As far as a fuel issues once the pump is done check the injectors for proper tips/spray patterns. Check injector protrusion. Make sure the injectors are the correct for the engine. Lots of problems with pickup truck diesels and hotrodders change to a different injector. Advanced timing is an issue with aircraft ground equipment using jet fuel and cylinder temps but usually damages all of the cylinders. 50 years with diesels let me know if I can help. Mike mverdow@verizon.net
Very good.
I understand that in rebuild kits like that, that the pistons rings and sleeves are a matched set, if mixed they will have different tolerances and could also be a factor, not the direct cause of the failure.
Your dealing with a kit,, any kit in any form needs a thourough insp per spec and tolerance. The block needs the same attention so as the head,, plane&square,,sleeves also per manufacture spec wether raised seal or flush per gasket seal,, well done tear-down insp // 52yrs exp
One correction, the color of the antifreeze means nothing, the composition means everything. Several manufacturers have color coded coolant that can be yellow, pink, orange, red, or green. These colors don't crossover to every manufacturer. The key is make sure you are using the right coolant not the right color. I work on diesel heavy equipment and we use a bulk green diesel antifreeze in 55 gallon drums from our supplier.
@@rrpeters Indeed, my family learned about color coded antifreeze the hard way back in 1999. Honda and Mitsubishi had green antifreeze back then. However, using the green stuff that you could find at the auto parts stores would destroy the water pumps. Honda and Mitsubishi used non-silicate antifreeze, but the green stuff in auto part stores was silicate based coolant. The result meant destroying water pumps.
I then made sure if I wasn't using OEM coolant, I was getting something with OEM equivalent chemistry.
Pentofrost and Zerex sell that sort of thing.
Excellent videos. Having skill and experience doesn't automatically make one an expert (like so many self proclaimed experts on the internet). Humility is truly on display as well as the desire for continued growth. Kudos to you both. Thank you for letting us share your journey.
Im in construction and ANYONE who comes in bragging about exp and what theyve done is immediatly suspect. True pros dont brag or say they are experts they just do the job and face every challenge as it comes
So here I am sitting in my chair watching, learning and listening to how a engine work's. How it's made what is what and why. I'm a chef so my speciality is the kitchen. However what I appreciate the most is the step by step ruling out what's wrong and why. Thank you for your time and efforts to make this wonderful Video.
I love that y’all showed all possible issues and had a explanation for why they weren’t the problem. Also respect to y’all for showing all your mistakes, a lot of people wouldn’t show this bc it might make them “look bad”
You both have been pretty darn thorough in your diagnosis and thanks for sharing. The pump spray pattern that you showed and discussed sure sounds like the smoking gun. I certainly don't have any doubts about your initial assembly nor would I even question it.
Dad and I used to do work on our family vehicles and occasionally, engines. You two remind me of those days. Love your work gentlemen.
Really enjoyed the video and your thorough breakdown. I grew up on a farm, but am now a Neurosurgeon, watching this during a lull in the day. But this takes me back to tearing into a tractor ourselves. Thanks for the way you discussed the potential issues and why you ruled them out.
You guy's are following factory specs and vendor recommendations plus your own knowledge when it's all back together and fired that first day will one to talk about. The fact your giving this effort is all anyone could ask. Excellent coverage.
I need more thumbs to put up on this video!! This is the kind of stuff I just love to watch. Soooo much knowledge being shared by a seasoned machinist. I hate that this happened to him and his tractor but I hope it is perfect after this.
Patience, logic and honesty are rare qualities these days. Excellent channel/video.
Exceptional troubleshooting. Great way to go about it. Appreciate you sharing this. It's great when you work with well educated technicians and learn so much in the process.
You explaining how the spray pattern shows the piston still being too low finally helped me understand how that means the timing could be too advanced. Also, I'm not a diesel specialist by any means but I do know there are modern HD coolant formulations out there that might really help you with corrosion and cavitation. It's a bummer that the first build didn't work out, but hey at least it made for some good video content!
I agree. Red extended life coolant is what I use
Indeed, this is why I am glad there is Shell Rotella brand coolant that is additized for these old diesels. Shell Rotella is a very popular oil brand for big diesels, and having a great antifreeze brand is also great.
I think it's great that you and your dad work together like that and get along as good as you guys do under any circumstances God bless you guys
I learned so much listening to you guys analyse the problems. Thank you!
Looks to me like you are on the right track with pump timing. Hopefully, the guys working on rebuilding it can find something definitive to remove some of the doubt and second guessing.
It’s always nerve racking when a problem occurs and are unable to pin down exactly what the cause is.
I wish you well and hope things turn out.
I look forward to see Allis up and running soon.
Great analysis guys! One thing that I didnt hear mention of, but you may have already addressed; have you pop tested the injection nozzles? If they are all too low out of spec, that will cause the same issue of early injection that an advanced pump will. Not sure if you sent them with the pump to your fuel shop, but definitely have them checked! I like running them at the top of spec, usually around 3200 psi for Bosch style nozzles. You get a crisp snap and better pattern. Just a thought!👍🏼
Count your Blessings young man every single day that you still have your great dad here on earth. Reminds me of my relationship with my dad. We also rebuilt engines (our own)
And worked together .... your Blessed
I absolutely love watching this. I love watching diagnosis and trying to find an issue like this while recording. That sucks about the pump.
Great diagnostic video. I’m sure any tech with years of experience can relate to a failure which leaves you scratching your head. Not to mention the paranoia that sets in when you fire that engine the 2nd time around. I have been there and you never forget. What did come to mind was EGT sensors on the manifold runners or shooting them with a FLIR or infrared gun.
The great part why I would trust you as a machinist is because of the troubleshooting and admitting when you are stumped and asking for advice from others. Happens to everyone at some point. Get your best guess and try it again. I like the cleaning guy, he said after all these years, he's still learning. That's what makes a wise man wise.
You guys are the best. I wish your shop was closer, you would be my go to.
I do not know diesels but have confidence you'll figure it out.
Your transparency is refreshing. Best video yet
Very interesting video! I agree with your findings 100%. Probably too much timing resulting in to much heat. I’m wondering if installing a pyrometer might not be a good idea. Definitely something I like to have in place on my tractors that have been turned up and tampered with. To bad this all happened but it’s definitely an experience that you can now use as a teaching tool.
The coolant thing might be due to the chemical makeup of it. I usually suggest heavy duty diesel coolant that typically isn’t green. Different additives that help against electrolysis when not running.
There is electrolysis and then there is cavitation. I agree I’d use a Diesel Rated Nitrate mix … just like the older engines that didn’t have aluminum parts.
Fantastic overview of the process of the failure. Excellent work guys!
Proper old school you guys are. Makes such a refreshing change to see.
Upon getting it back together, a test that I would be comfortable with performing to see if you have injectors firing incorrectly under pressure, load the engine off the pto, run it up to rpm , use a heat gun on the exhaust manifold to check your individual egt’s, if they don’t match close something isn’t right
That sounds like very good advice. Under load is the way to go.
So frustrating guys! I hope this time it goes better!
I really like the forensics and "wisdom of the crowd" operation. Good logic flow. Best video yet!
You guys just gave a Master Class! Very thorough and concise. Good job and Good Luck with it.
@JAMSIONLINE12 Thank ya'll! What do you need from me.?
Jim,
I would have an inspection company come in to shoot the piston with an Alloy Testing with XRF Analyzer (this is an X-Ray Fluorescence Tool for testing metal alloys in-situ) to verify that the aluminum alloys are all the same in all the pistons. My reason for suggesting this is because of the extreme damage to the 3 pistons vs the 3 good ones, with so little run time on this engine. If the aluminum billet alloy that these pistons were made from was off by as little as a 0.02 to 0.03 Percent this is exactly what you'd find, and with the supply chain issues that we are seeing these days it wouldn’t surprise me, and once you know the composition of the aluminum alloy in your litely run position contact the piston vendor to see if the composition matches up. By having an inspection company come in verify the piston alloy you will know within 5 minutes if there’s something wrong, they will simply clean up a 0.5” square spot on the pistons and then perform the Non-Destructive Test on each piston and give you a full composition report for each piston. This may led you to the root cause of the engine failure.
A typical aluminum alloy will have some of the following components, but it could also have different components depending on the specific alloy used to make the pistons:
Silicon (Si) in an amount of about 9.6 to 12.0 wt. %.
Magnesium (Mg) in an amount of about 1.5 to 3.0 wt. %.
Zinc (Zn) in an amount of about 3.0 to 6.0 wt. %.
Iron (Fe) in an amount of about 1.3 wt. % or less but greater than 0 wt. %.
Manganese (Mn) in an amount of about 0.5 wt. % or less but greater than 0 wt. %.
Nickel (Ni) in an amount of about 0.5 wt. % or less but greater than 0 wt. %.
Tin (Sn) in an amount of about 0.2 wt. % or less but greater than 0 wt. %.
Aluminum (Al) constituting the remaining balance of the aluminum alloy composition.
I say all of this as I have worked in the Refining-Petrochemical industry for the last 30 years and have seen a lot of metallurgical issues that have led to premature failures or to outright rejecting brand new equipment because the specified metallurgy didn’t match the what was being received.
Metal substitution has become a real issue in the past 5 to 10 years as inferior alloys are being disguised as higher grades of alloys in all metals.
Aloha.....................
Damn my new favorite American RUclips channel just like diesel creek and powernation 🇺🇸 🦅
Love your videos and the cleaning guy 😂
Greets from Germany 🇩🇪
Watch "that engine guy" you won't regret it
Good stuff and professionally represented. If only more people like this were doing real work and problem solving
I am excited to see it come back together. I did a shade tree rebuild on my tractor, you know hone it out, new piston rings, slap it back together and it runs somehow. You are doing well pinpointing the problems and moving step by step. I have no clue what I'm doing.
I would say the IP was calibrated for a later model with greater power which have piston cooling jets.
Direct injection puts most of the flame on the piston bowl.
Inadequate turbo compressor flow can also cause piston temperature excursion. Both boost pressure and temperature are critical.
I think you are on the right track. Maybe add an EGT gauge when you put it together?
I like in the intro. Where you guys explain what happened while showing work being done on the right. Smart video editing!
Coeeficient of Thermal Expansion can play hell on clearance gaps, thus materials can expand much more than spec'd yrs ago. Love this channel!!!
I saw what appeared to be a crude injector test. I’d verify the spray pattern, spray angle and function matches the piston type. I assume the pump shop will have good intel for you on that.
Timing would/should affect all cylinders the same whereas an injector would obviously only affect the one (or in your case 2.5) cylinder.
Yep, agreed it was somewhat crude. Injectors we’re also sent out with the pump for further testing 👍🏼
Also all pistons show similar symptoms, just some further along in the failure process!
@@JAMSIONLINE monitoring EGT would be a decent way to monitor temps on the top end. May help with future diagnosis. I have no clue what a non turbo 1970 tractor should run temp wise. But they typically say 1100°f to the inlet of the turbo (exhaust manifold outlet) on 1990s stuff is up there for temps. My limited experience is with the 12 valve Cummins stuff. I assume the tractor is typically seeing a good load near peak RPM so 1100° may not be far off for a max safe temp.
Chalmers probably used a low silicon alloy with a high expansion rate. still 2.5 thou is tight for such a large bore. I'd probably want 5-6 thou, even with modern cast pistons
Great diag!! Detonation is brutal!
The proofed that others share by their way just shows that it really doesn't matter all that much.
Thanks guys for a really great in depth breakdown of the issues with this engine.
I talked to an old Allis guy ( his father owned a dealership eons ago) that has many years of experience, and he said the injector spray pattern definitely needs to be inside the piston bowl. So two things, either you have some funky injector nozzle spray ( perhaps low pressure) , or injector timing is to far advanced like you suggested.
If the injectors are too advanced, a good technician can listen to the engine and find out.
Gale Banks talked about injector spray timing. There is a window of which they need to fire. Outside of that, problems can start happening.
A bit of gas in mixed in with the diesel fuel could also cause pre-ignition. It doesn't take a lot of gas to destroy a diesel engine.
Timing can definitely affect things. I had a pump builder miss a cracked plunger it sent the timing so far advanced it shook the sleeves loose.
Had something similar happen with a Ford diesel, I assumed the injection pump was still good and it melted down all 4 cyl pretty good. It still ran somehow but had no power.
I thoroughly enjoyed you guys going over this in such detail.
I know it’s frustrating for you, but what a great learning experience for us. Keep it up .
Big fan of the channel! I've followed your Allis story from rebuild, so have been very interested in understanding what went wrong. Thanks for the detailed review of the teardown. Very interesting observation of the injection spray pattern. Not familiar with how the pump advance works, but I would expect the advance to be wrong for all cylinders? My concern is what appears to be very gradational damage from 1 to 6. Makes me think coolant temp at the back of the block had some contribution to the problem. Have you had a look at the water pump impeller?
So yoyu're thinking that it's not necessarly overheating, but running just hot enough to drive up the combustion temperature?
Yes,impeller can cause problems with symbiosis like adv.timing.Not only one problem caused that .
Thanks for the in depth "autopsy". As I watched, you examined every possibility I thought of (and others I didn't).
FWIW I agree with your determination of injection pump config/advanced timing.
It will be exciting to see it running properly. 👍
love the humility in this video
100% agree with the diagnosis, I was going to comment this, on the first video, but you had already pinned it. I'm sorry for your loss, its never nice to pull down your own work, but at least you know it was not your workmanship that caused it. From someone that's been doing it for only 30 years, I love your videos because you do things 100% the way I would, and I'm considered fussy. Its also made for some extremely interesting videos, that continue to showcase your high standards. You were recently " reviewed " by Barum engines here in the UK. just so you know, I consider you far above them, and the father and son story and dynamic is an added treat. 👌 don't change a thing 😍
I completely agree with you regarding Barum engines compared with Jim's Automotive they're a joke.
I enjoy watching both BARUM and JAMSI as both do interesting work. I consider BARUM’s work to be of high quality given their constraint of using ageing machines - i.e. not every shop can afford to invest in very expensive new machines. I suspect that BARUM’s specialist on cranks (I think his name is John) does not wish to be featured on RUclips, so there is no crankshaft grinding work shown on their videos.
I consider the comment provided by @SAMRODIAM to be wrong and mischievous.
I would definitely be wondering about the reliability of first rebuild on that injection pump especially if it was built 180 out, and I believe I saw some comments on the last video about those having some issues.
Failure analysis is a skill in its own. Great work!!
Awesome vid!!! I'm learning so much.... I've been watching your vids to learn about engines and I can honestly say it's sinking in!!! You guys are awesome!!! Keep up the good work!!! Love the troubleshooting and every tidbit of info!!!
A personal intimate gel lubricant available in drug stores might work well on the liner O rings. Water soluble and very slippery, should also be non reactive
to O rings. The brand I like is ASTRO Lube, next to the KY jelly at the drug store.
I use it when fighting with large exhaust hoses on marine engines. Also might
help with crotch hatch!😁.
In my opinion I think something went wrong
We definitely want to know your start up plan! The most terrifying part for us hobbyists with not allot of money and time are those first moments after it starts!
As disciplined a troubleshooting method as I've ever seen in pro aerospace, nice job. A pity the pump was overhauled before you got the money shot... and omg that shop is a slice of heaven if I've ever seen one 🥰
I’ve worked for Cummins Engine all my life. They used engine oil when assembling the old NH , N-14 and the new B and C engines.
As a Journeyman Industrial machine repairman. The black O rings are good for oil . The viton O rings are good for hydraulic and synthetic coolants 👍
Can't wait!
Me neither!
@@JAMSIONLINE 🤣, you already know! Were the ones waiting to find out! 🤣. Looking forward to it.
I think you have properly evaluated this issue and all roads point to pump timing ! Thanks for sharing !
You are great, I enjoy seeing and learning from you two on these videos.
I did hazard a guess that you were having a lean burn in your community post, but the advance/timing messing you around for high combustion temps really does look right.
I'm glad you've (mostly) gotten to the bottom of things despite the smoking gun ending up at the bottom of the lake.
Good luck, I'm sorry you've had this headache but it doesn't look like you were in a position to be able to tell something wasn't right at the beginning. Everything you did looked spot on
Lean burning diesel engines run cold . Opposite to petrol engines .
@@stewatparkpark2933 Thank you, that's cleared up a few misconceptions for me and makes perfect sense