Old Norse "Positive Fatalism"
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- Some thoughts on when fatalism isn't exactly the same as pessimism, as very characteristic of Norse literature.
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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I thought Tolkein captured this positive fatalism well in his depiction of Rohan and Théoden. "Forth rode the king, fear behind him, fate before him. Fealty kept he; oaths he had taken, all fulfilled them. ... Doom drove them on. Darkness took them, horse and horseman; hoofbeats afar sank into silence: so the songs tell us."
That is a fantastic quote!
Tolkien borrowed/stole so much from the Eddas, and then put his Catholic spin on it. Sorry, I really can't brook Tolkien, or C. S. Lewis for that matter. They Christianize and hence patriarchalize (if that's a word) myths that are at their most fundamental roots neither Christian nor monotheistic in the least.
Tolkien really liked this about norse culture. Its what he tried to reconcile with a catholic worldview
Or Túrin Turimbar in the Silmarillion
@@celestialtreetarot4260 but turin is an example of Tolkien´s criticism on norse fatalism and pride. Theoden and Aragorn would be positive depictions, Turin a harsh criticism
“It might be doomed - but that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right thing to do.”❤
That quote jumped out at me too. So good. 🔥
Shepherd Book used to tell me “if you can’t do something smart, then do something right”.
Socialism?
@@nothanks9503 Touché!
@@nothanks9503 Theft is wrong thing to do. Fight against thieves even if they are stronger.
“Eat drink and be merry-for tomorrow we die” takes on a particularly different connotation in light of this philosophy.
This phase is often misquoted and incomplete
carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero,” which translates as “pluck the day trusting the next one as little as possible"
In other words, live in the moment without worrying about what tomorrow is going to bring.
@@esmeraldagreen1992 I’m referring to Paul’s Corinthian reference to Isaiah in the Bible, which is the phrase’s first appearance in Greek. It is not incorrectly applied here, but the phrase you suggested is equally good
It's like "congratulations everyone we made it to the place we were always supposed to be."
@@esmeraldagreen1992its also a dave matthews band lyric lmao, probably why so many use this version
This positive fatalism is still very much the mindset in Scandinavia.
As a German I also felt called out in this video. It's still entrenched in our culture to an extent.
My parents were Lithuanian and Austrian. This concept of "active fatalism" absolutely resonates with my Lithuanian father. My Austrian mother, not as much. She and her family were more into the Vienna ideals of partying and enjoying music and art and freedom (my mother was the youngest of eight children, so when I say Vienna, I mean pre-war, as in pre World War 2 and pre World War 1 Vienna). So I grew up with this Lithuanian idea of fatalism, and this contrasting idea of whether fatalism is true or not, enjoy yourself. I am still torn and conflicted, I suppose ;) I am a little of both.
It is. It’s what Finns call ”sisu” - it means to keep trying despite all hope being lost. I always thought that this was also beautifully depicted in ”Vikings” when after being utterly defeated by the Parisian forces, instead of going home with their tails between their legs, they find a way to carry their ships over the hills to try again.
@@-breakofdawn- I'm not sure we have a word for it but the saying "was muss, das muss" ("what must, that must") comes to mind. So what needs to be done, must be done. No matter if we know the outcome is bad. Almost to an extent that it's shameful not to go through with it.
The Vikings would have loved stories like the Alamo or the 300 Spartans.
"Rise to the simple honor of having done courageously and of having pursued one's goals on the one field that's given to us to achieving them and on the one course that your life can take."
Gee, Jackson, this should be written and published somewhere.
I wish people had more of that positive fatalism in them these days. It’d prevent them from letting others manipulate and frighten them, so instead of mindlessly believing everything they are told they’d still be able think for themselves, put their foot down and say no. Excellent video, thank you!
A big problem is western cultures fear & denial of death, something we all face and is inevitable. It's made people cowards and fearful of everything in life. Once you let go fear of death, you start to easily see how we are manipulated by this demented society and those who want to control it.
You might just get your wish.
I think the saliva of Fenrir is the perfect metaphor for hope against all odds. He is imprisoned but knows he will break free.
That boulder in the background looks like a chicken leg.
Thor's drumstick dinner.
That one student in the back of the class who is always waiting for lunch. 😂
This is a very thought-provoking topic that you have addressed here, Dr. Crawford. Having been in the military myself, it interests me to no end, that we see this sort of optimistic-fatalism in so many seemingly different cultures across time. As the samurai Yamamoto Tsunetomo said in the late 1600s:
"Setting one's heart right every morning and evening, one is able to live as though his body were already dead, he gains freedom in the Way.
his whole life will be without blame, and he will succeed in his calling"
Even Shakespeare addressed the issue in his Julius Caesar, commenting:
"A coward does many times before his death / the valiant only taste of death but once."
But this idea, I believe, is best embodied in the words of Alfred Tennyson in "The Charge of the Light Brigade" when he states:
"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die"
Thank you for your entertaining and informative videos! And remember, as the Romans stated: "Fate guides the willing by the hand. The unwilling, she drags, kicking and screaming"
im sure youve heard of Leonidas: food for thought, what if Leonidas wanted to test himself to the point of failure? that would mean a sort of indifference to death, because if he wanted to reach his limits as a warrior, he had to go until he met his end.
Actually Tennyson was being ironic in the poem, so it doesn't really fit.
@@michaelwu7678 Hmm, although Tennyson was being ironic because he was criticizing the ideals of the British aristocratic officers, which they weren't being ironic about, and which actually are similar. Indeed, the culture and ideals of the British aristocracy were ultimately Norman in origin. The Norman culture was largely Norse in origin, with significant Frankish and Catholic influence. So actually, its possible to read Tennyson's poem as effectively criticizing a Christianized and somewhat evolved form of Norse positive fatalism.
Saga of Jackson Crawford...
When you mentioned the people who have bought your books, I briefly lamented that I already own all of your current ones, but I wanted to add that if you were to write a book on the philosophy of the Norse as laid out in their surviving writing (including giving your expanded Havamal and the insight in this video), I'd bet that would sell well. Assuming you (or you and a co-author) have enough to say to fill a book that you'd be happy to have your name attached to, that might be an idea to consider. It's outside your normal wheelhouse, but I would find it potentially interesting.
I think that this philosophy is the difference between knowing that something is going to happen, and knowing how is going to happen. There are things that are going to happen, but how they are going to be realize is what we have control over. Example: I know that I’m going to die in a car accident, but instead of just letting it happen, I can buy a big car, modify the car, and die with bang.
With odin, I think something similar is happening, he knows he is going to die, but he can die with a bang, if he has a big army. I think that a lot of movies and stories do this. There are unavoidable things, but different ways to get to them, and the most heroic way is the right way.
There are always choices: put on the seat belt, drink/not, put your foot down ...
This is a beautiful sentiment!
Perhaps the storytellers of old wrote of fate not "because" they believed in its power or truth, but because the written record of its defiance stands as a testament to the resolve of people who have truly conquered death. In life, it is a truly courageous act to love your friends, even knowing our fate is shared in hell.
This fatalism is approached better by Sir Henry Newbolt's verses (Vitaï Lampada) about a military disaster "Play up! Play up! and play the game!" than Grantland Rice, "For when the One Great Scorer comes /To mark against your name, /He writes - not that you won or lost, /But HOW you played the game," with its hint of some reward to come.
Unless you are Scandinavian full or in part, it is hard to grasp. The matter-of-factness about mortality is strange to Americans. The French think about their existentialism, for Swedes it's core. All the relatives talk about death cleaning and their neighbors and friends are appalled. "Are you going to die or is there something we should know." The reply would be, "Yes, I'm going to die but probably not today, BUT you can't tell." LOL
The comment about how we as modern people tend to project our own ideas onto ancient and medieval philosophies seems spot on to me. I’ve witnessed this often in circles where folks look toward Stoic and Epicurean texts for a philosophy of life. Very interested in hearing about more elements of Old Norse society that we are likely to misinterpret given modern sensibilities.
Caught that you have something difficult upcoming in 2023. Thinking of you and wishing you well in meeting it.
I developed this mindset after a very dark time in my life. Nothing better ever happened to me.
Let go of the illusion of control, expect nothing, endure everything and give it all, hold nothing back. It's strangely peaceful.
Thank you so much for doing a video on this! This has been a huge draw for me to Norse literature! Would love to see more literary analysis like this!
Jackson - whatever is coming up for you in 2023 and beyond, you will be strong through this fated future! And you have our support.
Interesting. I think what you are speaking of would be something like 'agnostic fatalism', which is to say they thought there was pre-destiny, but that they couldn't really know what it was, and so courage in all activities is/was a fate itself. It is true that many have tried very hard at something and failed. I'm a free-will type myself, so courage makes total sense to me, but I can see how fatalists would also need a reason to fight on. This is precisely why determinism has always seemed wrong to me, because it seems it would take all the reason to try from a person, but not so if there were/are subletys I could never see. Nice job explaining what you see.
I appreciate Havamal 16 to express this sentiment:
An unwise man thinks he'll live forever if only he can avoid a fight, but old age will give him no peace even if weapons do.
As I watched this video, I heard a song by Tori Amos well up in my mind. It's called "Bells for Her." The lyric that kept coming back was: "Can't stop what's coming; can't stop what is on its way." A lovely song. Thanks for the lesson.
Fate, without defiance, is boring. If everyone just acceded to the dictates of their doom, then there would be no stories. It is the insight (not granted to all) to perceive ones Fate , plus the courage to challenge it anyway, that provides the means to elevate oneself above the inevitable reality of the world. In a sense, by the simple act of daring to defy Fate, you have already gained a sort of victory, irrespective of your material success.
And there are some stories that end, "And they lived happily, to the end of their days." Perhaps yours will be one such.
I loved the 'fried chicken-drumstick' rock formation behind you. Clever framing.
Jan
Basically the Norse mentality can be summed up with "I may not have any real chance of winning, but at least I will die fighting" -- which is still a central part of the modern Scandinavian sense of justice. You fight for what is right (the future), not for what is possible (the now). Although it may sound like an individualistic thing, in order to prove your pride and prowess, it actually is a collectivistic thing -- you fight for the future and for your community (justice), not for the now and yourself (practicality). That is, you may not be able to change your own individual fate -- but through your best-possible individual sacrifice, you may be able to change the fate of others (whose life-threads have not been spun yet, see below).
Indeed, as part of the "positive fatalism" I would think the Norns (the Fates) are also worthy of mention -- which (for anyone who does not know) are the three old women, sitting under Yggdrasil, spinning your life-thread before you are born. The length of your thread means the length of your life, the lumpiness how many hardships you will meet. I mean, there's probably no more tangible example of Norse fatalism, than the fact that they believed your entire life had been predetermined by the spinning of a magical piece of yarn, before you were even born.
🧶✨ 🤘😊
I loved this so much, thank you for the upload 💙
Big picture: Knowing that you’re doomed to die in the end, no matter what you do, doesn’t relieve you of the responsibility to continue to do your (dharma) duty in this life.
Little picture: Knowing that telling the truth is going to cause you to lose your job, doesn’t relieve the responsibility of being truthful.
Man, you are a freaking legend, thank you so much for what you do, i love learning about this stuff
Thank you Jackson. A good analysis. Waiting for more.
One of your best. Thank you
Great video! I felt encouraged.
Needed this. Thank you Dr. Crawford.
This is truly a great video, Mr. Crawford, thank you!
I tend to look at it like this:
It's not about the path, it's length, it's obstacles, or where on it you meet your end. It's how you *walk* that path.
Fate is everywhere, it's everything. How does a person meet the challenges put to them? Do they give up? Do they panic? Do they adapt?
Or, in simpler terms: "It's not the hand you're dealt. It's how you play it."
This is similar in LOTR, where even the smallest of creatures, with enough courage, can turn the tide of evil. Perseverance in the face of incalculable odds.
I disagree because they succeeded in LOTR. In Norse myth they fail, even when they knew they were going to fail they kept on trying because it's the right thing to do.
Tolkien wrote about hope. For the Norse, hope is canine spit. They don't do those things because of hope, but because of drengskap.
@@PRKLGamingYes, Tolkien put his own spin on his perspective on fate and evil (a decidedly Christian perspective), but you could argue that Frodo DID fail at the end of the LOTR when he tried to leave Mt. Doom with the ring. Tolkien's perspective seems to be that there is a "moral arc" to the universe--evil will kill itself as long as those with the most noble and humble of characters try to do their best. But, yes, this is definitely different to the Norse perspective on fate and hope, where there was little a single person could do to actually change their fate, try as they might.
There is definitely less of a good/evil dichotomy in Norse mythology when compared to LOTR. I have only read LOTR, but I know Tolkien's short stories and the Silmarillion can be more dark and tragic.
@@az4037 I don't think you understood my point. Frodo might have failed, but the quest succeeded. You said it yourself it's a common theme in LOTR to surpass all odds. That's a completely alien theme in Norse myths.
You're right about good and evil not existing for the Norse but I don't see how it relates to my points. The difference lies in how Tolkien and the Norse see hope differently.
@@PRKLGaming yeah I'm not refuting you at all. You're right that Tolkien and norse mythology have different perspectives and arrive at different conclusions.
Thank you. Thought provoking.
Dr. Crawford, it sticks in my mind that this explains something taught to me by my father; you cannot control when you die, but you can die well. That requires a code, an ethic, a way of life that is enduring. I have sent this to my sons and sons-in-law. Thanks again. To think I might never have run across the channel if not for Ian McCollum and that shark alleged food thing.
This video, your knowledge, the pagan spirit and your voice, made a profound impression on me, thank you very much for this and maybe you could narrate audio book versions of your translations and even perhaps fantasy and other literature books.
I read that last one as "it is your fate to do as you choose", not "life's gonna suck if you do this, do it anyway"
Thanks for another excellent video 💚
This "binds" very well with the Ancient Greek concept of Fate, the Underworld (no Heaven!) and how one can only live forever through his immortalizing deeds
Fenrir‘s spit being hope reminds me of the last spirit in Pandora‘s Box- „hope“ being something undesireable
Can't help but see strains of this in Dylan Thomas, Rage against the dying of the light.
Yes, I agree that this is a good way to view the world. And as you say, you see it echoed in many of the Norse and Old English sources. Great video, as always.
I feel as though there's a shadow of this in Achilles' famous lines from the Odyssey:
"μὴ δή μοι θάνατόν γε παραύδα, φαίδιμ᾽ Ὀδυσσεῦ.
βουλοίμην κ᾽ ἐπάρουρος ἐὼν θητευέμεν ἄλλῳ,
ἀνδρὶ παρ᾽ ἀκλήρῳ, ᾧ μὴ βίοτος πολὺς εἴη,
ἢ πᾶσιν νεκύεσσι καταφθιμένοισιν ἀνάσσειν."
The idea that this life is all we have and we should cherish it, no matter how "small" or "useless" it might seem, is a powerful corrective to the nihilism of the modern atheistic world. This was a wonderful video on a very timely and important topic. Thank you.
In the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf tells Frodo that Sauron is rising again; Frodo says he wishes it hadn't happened in his time. Gandalf agrees but says it's not for us to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. I've always been inspired by this. I enjoy your videos very much, great information!👍 Takke from the Northwest!
Ahh love it when my favourite expert always remembers to tell me that he is an expert and a PhD. Nothing more reassuring than that. Just pure confidence dripping from everywhere.
Hope = Fenrir's saliva, to me, also seems like anticipation (like a dog that licks their chops when seeing food) but doesn't inherently satisfy or nourish (like *eating* the food would). It fills the mouth, and we swallow it into our belly, but only a fool would call it food.
Wonderful! More on this theme please!
I love this earthy philosophy ❣️
Saga worthy courage in the face of fate does indeed help in getting through life, thanks prof Crawford ✌🏼💕
Beautiful video! Shared it with a bunch of my friends. I think this is exactly what Tolkien meant when he talked about "that noble northern spirit", and I think that from watching and reading The Lord of the Rings as a child, it has always informed my own worldview, a way of seeing things that I've found to be sorely lacking from most modern minds. Thank you for making this!
Not sure why this was the one...but after watching this video, I purchased your book on the Poetic Edda. Should be here soon and let the reading begin. Thanks for all you do, to present, a calm and reasoned approach to this subject Dr Crawford....
“I’d ride home and leave this treasure alone, if I knew that I would never die”
Very interesting.Thank you!
"Stoicism" was the word as was kind of missing here. As we find a similar attitude in for instance Hercules' adventures, or all the other ancient ones, where the heroes might not like their 'tasks', but nevertheless have to play the cards they are dealt with. Anyhow, great channel, which I cannot stop binge watching right now. Keep up the good work!
My favourite Norweigan saying is "You cannot reach the moon with legs or a horse." I'm not sure what it means but we say it every time someone drops an item of tableware
Just had a thought that this video is like a pagan sermon--complete with quotes from Norse scripture and everything!
Also, about fate, I once wrote, "we have so little time to do what little we can, that our fates might as well be written in stone." I think we are free to choose our own fate, but given our so many limitations (time, ability, external factors, etc.) each one of us really only has one very narrow path to follow to death. So do your best, and don't be too hard on yourself--after all, what will be is just as what has been.
I feel like Positive Fatalism can be best described as being able to accept death, defeat and failure. Despite knowing the ending you chose to press on. Why? Because the end is just a small part of the story and it’s up to you to decide how it should play out up until that point.
I really like the term "saga-worthy courage".
I recommend listening to the song "helvegen" by wardruna, the song ends with the Hávamál stance you phrased
This is my first encounter with anything Old Norse and I hope this doesn't sound too flippant but what I'm reminded of is what Gandalf says to Frodo when Frodo is desperately wishing he'd never been charged with destroying the ring: it's not the hand we are dealt that's important, it's what we do with the hand we get dealt. What really matters is not our fate but how we relate to it. We have a small but crucial scope for individual agency. I have often had occasion to take courage from this nugget of wisdom. (Actually, I can't even be sure this line is in the book, it's so long since I read it, but it jumped out at me from the film!)
Thank you: a lovely video.
Thank you so much for this video. It was incredibly meaningful for me as devotee of the Norse deities and also a person with sever depression. It very easy for me to feel that things are hopeless and a constant struggle to not just give up and it is my faith that keeps me going, this concept of active fatalism as exemplified in examples like Ragnoarok. I am still here today specifically because of this idea that, even if there is no hope, you still must do. It is a hard concept to grasp for a culture that is so obsessed with "positivity" like mainstream America. I've often struggled to articulate this world view to people effectively and you absolutely hit the nail on the head perfectly here so perfectly with this explanation.
It basically means, you can't control what the universe throws at you, you can control how you respond to it. It is the balance between fate and free will.
I'm certainly no scholar but I often now see Odin, not necesarily as attempting to subvert or thwart his fate, but that he tries to meet it fully. Ragnarok is annihilation and rebirth and he ensures it will play out as such to his fullest capacity, by all means in craft and cunning and strength of arms, even if it means he will not exist beyond it. Maybe that is a poor reading of literally but I am fond of it and if anything it gives me a bigger sense of "positive fatalism"
I was just thinking about this as I read your translation of the Havamal it really has a lot to say and a lot of genuinely really good advice, but yeah this idea that yeah maybe you can’t change fate but you can change how you face it and that’s what makes you who you are. If you cower in the face of impossibility you’ll never know the true ends of our abilities. You’ll never know what you’re truly capable of. It’s almost like they are using impossibility as a yardstick to measure their valor.
of all things, I'm reminded of a film I think was about ancient Greeks.
the captain and his men are going to die, "The ferryman is waiting for us. I say we make him wait just a little longer." Its kind of stuck with me, and I think its congruent with this Positive-Fatalism.
In my mind, the abstraction is; we are all fated to die, but that is not a reason to abdicate what choices you have in how you die.
There's something humanly empowering at the idea that even though you can't "win", you can make something far bigger than you move, even if its just by an inch.
Thanks Jackson
You took your hat off right after you said promises of love 😉
This is a fascinating video. But I also can't stop thinking about how the rock over his shoulder looks like a fried chicken drumstick. I guess it's time for lunch...
Thank you man.
Based on the title of this video I am extremely interested, as I'm fairly certain I'll be doing my dissertation on some aspects of this in the Old Norse world 🙂
You might like Laughing Shall I Die by Tom Shippey (who also wrote an excellent book on Tolkien).
sounds similar to mesopotamian religions where everyone ends up in a bleak shadowy underworld where there is no separation of the good and the bad after death. also the mesopotamian story of gilgamesh where he is told to be happy with a family in this world and not to worry about the bleak afterworld. similar theme of finding satisfaction with earthly meaning.
There's a wonderful song about the battle of Maldon by Rosalind Jehanne (that's the name she goes by in reenactment circles and to which the song is usually attributed; outside the hobby she's known as Johnna Bernstein) that has a chorus taking inspiration from the lines you quote: "For our hands shall be the harder and our will shall be the wiser / and our hearts shall grow bolder, though our strength must end. / Come and follow me to glory so that when they tell the story / we will not be forgotten in the halls of men."
It's like, if you don't keep defying fate, then when the winds of fate change you can't catch that uplifting breeze.
It's like Just Keep Swimming but actually more useful.
I’m trying to pay attention to Dr Crawford because this lecture is very interesting but my attention keeps drifting over his shoulder to the mountains. What a view! I dream of returning to Colorado. I long to see those mountains again.
Mountains, Gandalf!
In late antique Greek philosophy fate is viewed as divine providence viewed from below.
Wondeful thoughts, loved the mention on allowing norse era philosophy its on place rather than forcing newer ideas on it . The focus they had on ones on narrative and saga has a lot of overlap with Viktor Frankl's view in psychoanalysis, the sense of suffering yet finding meaning and love in one's duty and story.
Live a life that has you ready for death when it arrives, but be in no rush to get there!
Saga worthy courage sounds excellent & a good way to live
I love it when Maldon gets a mention.
6:37 This sentence captures it well.
A thing that always appealed to me about it
My family tree is about 66% Scandinavian and 33% English so listening to Old Norse and Old English is just so cool.
Wonderful
All the best to you too.
I loved this video. As a huge fan of Albert Camus and absurdism I see a lot of similarities
Between his Concept of revolt against meaninglessness and the ideas presented in this video. The centrality of death/final inevitable fate. Interesting!
fascinating!
"You're doomed, I'm doomed, we are all doomed, notice how I didn't say what type of doomed so whatever happens im correct"
Huh, that's really awesome. It sounds to me like in a nutshell, that the idea is a combination of "It's not over until its over, and you can always turn things around." even if the odds are very poor (or fated to be in this case), and "Everyone has to die, so make the most of your one shot.". Those sentiments were something I found come up often when I trained martial arts, and really speaks to the kind of people the Norse were. "Courage is not the absence of fear. It is the willingness to act in spite of fear." also seems to fit well with this idea.
Excellent and very meaningful. I've always found the texts to give a massive feeling of an intangible 'fate', not specifically fatalism which is a common description. How you face it and how you act. Now, did Othin die or was he simply swallowed? There's a question.
Indeed, that's pretty much the viking old philosophy: fight until you fall and if you know in advance you will be defeated (fate against you) then fight even harder.
Our fate is our own. We choose and forge the path of our lives ourselves. hopes isn't a wolves saliva, hope comes from each pump of our hearts, telling us it wants to live and thrive!
Thanks
We all die. The key is to die well. Just as important as living well.
Excellent, thank you! Do you have a favorite edition of the Prose Edda?
Probably his own translation
Hey man can I suggest something for your audio? On iPhone specifically you can turn on voice isolation. Also the AirPods work really well with it, however I’ve used corded headphones with mics and it’s worked well.
Who cares how it turns out? It's the right thing to do, so do it!
IMHO - How does this go along with the rich grave goods, seemingly preparing the late person for his afterlive?
No offend - I'm just puzzled.
"ok allt líf um lagit" all (my) life laid. Interesting also to note that the norns are described as laying down runes as the image for deciding the fates of humankind:
Urð hétu eina, Urd one was named
aðra Verðandi, another Verðandi
- skáru á skíði, - - carved on sticks -
Skuld ina þriðju; Skuld the third
þær lög lögðu, They laid laws
þær líf kuru They chose the lives
alda börnum, of the sons of men,
örlög seggja the fates of men.
Laying laws, or the natural consequences for things, is equated to deciding fates; we know from Tacitus that the carving runes on sticks and throwing them on the ground was a part of germanic divination practices--casting lots more broadly is a widespread human ritual-and it seems likely that this is invoking that imagery. It could even be that reenacting this primordial example is what informed the ritual divination practices.
I do find it interesting that there is the notion that even the gods will die is present in Norse mythology when so far as I am aware it is absent from Greco Roman, and Indian polytheism. Perhaps this reflects the times when these stories had most potency as the Christian religion was gaining the ascendent?
One must imagine Sigurd happy.