The Northern Line's Other Secret Loop
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Regular Tube Nerds will know of the Kennington Loop on the Northern Line, but the Northern actually has a second loop of track (that's no longer in use) that predates the one at Kennington! Let's go see where it is ....
Many thank to Ian Visits for the use of the photo that he scanned from the National Archives, read his page here for more: www.ianvisits....
He also has photos on his site that were sent into him if you want to see what it looks like! Those are here: www.ianvisits....
Additional thanks to Andera Vail for her camera assistance.
Well this is awkward, i managed to get the 'Northbound' and 'Soutbound' labels the wrong way round. i'm sure if i don't mention it, no one will notice ...
😂 that correction was my first ever comment. 1-0 Geoff!!
Geoff you got the northbound and southbound labels the wrong way round. I won't say anything if you won't though
I was wondering that but it didn't spoil another interesting video!
Good thing you hadn’t told us as I’d never have known! 😀
@@geofftech2 Please make a video on all the uk train network through maps (like the eastcoast line)
Delighted to be the 5,691st person to go "ooooooohhhhhh so THAT's why!" at the Embankment curved platform fact
hi tim!
Hi Tim! I just came from watching your paris transport museum that isn't in paris video 😍
Hello and bonjour
I’ve read this in your voice. It automatically adds 20% excitement to this video.
I’m the 93,995th one
Dear TfL - please give Geoff a tour of this loop! Cheers
Its partly flooded silly
Would be amazing to see! Need to get someone down there
The entire loop would likely be unfeasible, but given Geoff mentioned that there's a small portion that TfL retain for some reason, that might be explorable. Of course, as it was a running tunnel, even if it wasn't flooded, there probably wouldn't be much to see, while as it dives below the Thames, it's likely you couldn't get a GPS signal down there to map exactly where the track goes (while the accumulated silt on the bed of the Thames likely makes it impossible to determine where the bombs landed from underwater exploration).
Or Time Team?
This is the kinda chat I love - how is something ‘doable’.
So that's why Embankment has that awkward curve on Northbound while the southbound is nice and straight. I was thinking of that for years
But it means we still get the old, pompous voice telling us to mind -- the --- gap.
MINDDDDD THE GAPPP
The Kennington Loop is about to get a little more interesting. When the Battersea extension opens, there will be a couple of early morning journeys each day from Battersea that terminate at Kennington, traverse the loop in the "wrong" direction, and then head back to Battersea for another trip!
Interesting
This is too much like Inception and Tenet for my liking
basically a Battersea-Kennington shuttle, in other words
Ghosts on the Underground is available on RUclips and contains staff reminiscences of some creepy happenings whilst traversing the Kennington Loop!
@@meijiturtle3814 ooh interesting
There's an article buried online somewhere about how a US Navy fellow was having a smoke on his ship, which was moored up at the Embankment (this was in WW2) when a German bomb hit the water nearby. He witnessed a whirlpool for a brief moment before everything returned to normal.
I presume the whirlpool was the tunnel flooding as the bomb burst through it
(I did search for the article but I ran out of time).
Ryan, I heard the self same story though you have remembered more detail than me! 😀
Imagine hiding in that station during the war and just hearing a bang and the sound of water filling that tunnel
I dont even care about trains, nor do I live in london but for some reason I can't stop watch Geoff anyway.
Same.
Reminds me of the South Ferry station on the 1 train, forever it ran through a loop station that could only fit half a train, so everyone in the back had to walk between the cars to get to the front half of the train. Finally, they built a new station under the loop that was a straight island platform with a crossover at the end… and then Hurricane Sandy turned that entire new station into an underground saltwater lake which required the entire thing to be rebuilt. Actually the loop has a second loop inside of it for 5 trains to turn around and head back uptown, instead of continuing on into Brooklyn. There used to be a small shuttle train that used the inside loop at a separate South Ferry station, but because the track curved so much, most of the doors would open to a massive gap that no one could safely traverse, so the shuttle had a switch that let on the only one safe door on the train car open. The shuttle was discontinued a long time ago, but at the Bowling Green station on the 4 & 5, if you stood on the Brooklyn bound platform at the south end you could see the little shuttle train platform for a really long time… until they put up a “temporary” wall to block the view.
For many years the 5 trains (and late night 6 trains) would share the outer loop platform with the 1 on evenings and weekends when it didn't go to Brooklyn. This was done because the newer cars could not selectively open the center doors. As you mentioned since the late 1970s the 5 uses the inner loop instead and no longer serves South Ferry and the 6 terminates at Brooklyn Bridge 24/7. The openings in the wall on the inner loop have been completely sealed up.
Love riding on parts of track that isn’t the main lines. On the Skytrain in Vancouver, Canada we can stay on the train for the turnarounds at the end of the lines and it’s always so interesting!
@1:40 They forgot to mention that it is equivalent to a 15 storey building.
but WE know!!!
You know if TfL starting charging to use the stairs, they might become a fad, cult thing. People paying 2 quid to jog up the stairs and claim a record.
mmm. because the Northern line
2:21 An “ahh, so that’s why” moment. Always good to have.
There's also the "King's Cross Loop". Not sure if that's considered "secret" necessarily, but as far as I know, it is still in use principally by engineering trains to get between the Piccadilly and Northern lines.
We went through it on a Cravens Heritage Trains tour of the Northern Line some years back. It was relatively straight forward moving from the Piccadilly to the Northern, but on the return journey, we had to pull into the Piccadilly westbound platform from the western end, and then reverse, to contine westwards, without the doors opening.
It's also used to do a South to North move from Euston Platform 6 into Euston Platform 3, not often though. It's drummed into drivers that you NEVER go past L221 signal because the Picc is on the other side of it.
@@LooselyGrope CORRECT LAST TIME I REMEMBER A DRIVER DOING SO WAS DURING THE ALL NIGHT RUNNING 2000 NEW YEARS NIGHT YOU CAN ALSO DO NORTH TO SOUTH FROM KINGS CROSS LOOP AND FROM KINGS CROSS N/B PLATFORM
EUSTON LOOP ALSO PART AND PARCEL OF THE KX LOOP , LOOP AT GOLDERS GREEN WAS A TWO LOOPS AT BRENT X HENDON S/B COLINDALE S/B BURNT OAK S/B
Geoff is so good at what he does. Bucket Loads of talent
How amazing there's a piece of curved track right underneath the Thames, and the floodgates look cool too, it's amazing when you think about our history.
Perfect opportunity for TFL to invite you for a walkalong the next time they inspect the tunnel :)
Right?! That's a Geoff Marshall video I'm anxious to see!
Bring some diving equipment for the flooded bit aswell
Wow. This is exactly why we need this kind of video. Who would know that? That was fascinating. I love how it's all evolved and bits get abandoned but not destroyed. Thanks Geoff.
Interesting, ive worked on the underground for 23 years and was the night TO at Kennington, walked the kennington loop hundreds of times, but never knew about the second loop. Might have to take a visit and have a look for the entrance, Probably behind a submarine door. Might have to drop a PM to someone if i can find it. ;-)
Fascinating! I did not know anything about this and I doubt many other viewers shall either. Thank you for uploading this most interesting video.
YOU CAN STILL FIND IT IN SOME STREET MAPS OF LONDON
Amazing, after all those years you still manage to show us stuff that most of us never knew.
Looking very summerly there, Geoff! ☀️ Thanks for the nice little video - informative, concise, and very well visualised!
Next video: Geoff rents some scuba gear.
we were all waiting for you to show us the tunnel.. joining the inspection crews that, well, inspect it sometimes.. we all want to see it now..
yup there's link to a page with photos in the description!
We have the same sort of "unused" piece of track from just North of West Jesmond through to Manors on the Tyne & Wear Metro . It is only used during electrification works by engineers trains although it doesn't officially exist
@ScriptedHqrry it's on a disused map but does it still get used
My guess is that the ease and quickness of being able to reverse the trains without having to change cab ends, by using the loop line, was so successful, that they thought they'd build another at Kennington when they extended the line. Btw, I've heard that when the Battersea section opens, Mill Hill East is going to regain its off-peak through trains to Central London, replacing the shuttles to and from Finchley Central.
Ooh! Good info on MHE. I would expect the Battersea opening to have widespread changes on the Northern Line timetable, yes.
@@geofftech2 that isn't one of the changes. The actual timetable changes are very modest
15+ years ago when I was an apprentice, was at home waiting for a call to know what station to meet that night. Watching the most haunted spots on the tube on tv. Number 1 was Kennington Loop. Just as it finished, got a call. Meet at Kennington, we’re walking the loop.
Love the fact they just thought “screw it - we will put it under the Thames” 😂😂
With the flash flooding in London in last few days, which flooded down tube entrances, maybe it is time to make sure the tube has working flood barriers, so at lease some sections can be used
1:40 54 steps? Probably about the equivalent of a 15 story building.
That was my firsth thought too. 🤣🤣
I understood that reference
There is always a certain fascination about trains, particularly trains which go nowhere! Thanks for uploading.
@Geoff Marshall. You can also reverse trains on the Southbound Cross branch to reverse at Kennington, South To North, back onto the Northbound City via Kennington Sidings ;) over 13 points .
Shhhh you didn’t hear that from me.
If you looked closely on "Secrets of the London Underground" tonight you'd have spotted this loop on the diagrams Tim was looking at at the LT museum depot.
I have to dig into memory here; wasn't Embankment once called Charing Cross or was that just the District/Circle Lines? Leading on from that, wasn't Charing Cross called Trafalgar Square? Whatever, I knew about the loop. I also knew about Kennington - my aunt lived in Braganza Street (where you showed the view of the lift dome). She was the District Nurse.
I already knew about this and was waiting to jump on the comments to mention the bombs, but you fitted it in right at the end.
Interesting video Geoff. Never knew that existed and now it explains why there’s only one curved platform.
All the years I rolled through Embankment I never knew this was there and I don't think I ever noticed the flood doors. Given recent rainfall flooding, someone at the Tube really should check their operation.
Have a Google for a 1907 photo of a Northern Line carriage which shows the loop of track on a classic tube-style map.
i've linked to Ian's article in the description, yes.
Great video! At 2:45 the diagram shows there’s a section saying “still accessible by TfL” - does that mean the tunnel is visible as you travel past?
Presumably yes
No it isn't, nothing goes off to the left or anything, im sure there will be an entrance to it somehow but it's not in the current tunnell
There is probably some shaft on a building or something
I really need to see this tunnel now!
Great information. Never knew about this loop. Keep the videos coming Geoff.
I got excited when I realised where you were, I already knew about this loop. I've tried to figure out where under the gardens the loop went and I believe there is a ventilation shaft located in there.
The ventilation in the gardens is for the electrical substation that used to under there, replaced a good number of years ago!
Dang I want Time Team to dig that! Thanks for the info Geoff.
" 'Northbound' and 'Soutbound' labels the wrong way round" = Going about being honest? You'll never make it as a politician. But this really was a brilliant video, very sincere thanks for posting. :)
I would like to see you for a series of things like that walkway, quirky things you love to see
Hopefully you can get a visit booked in to the still accessible part Geoff!
When this is the second time you've watched this video today and it's barely been up five minutes.
cracking video once again Geoff! when I lived in London I always had an interest in the underground; went to the museum, bought maps with old disused stations on it etc etc, however nothing more than a 'fleeting interest'. Thanks to Geoff and his videos with his undoubted passion for the transport system its been rekindled. Top Stuff Geoff, and when Im in town next looking forward to doing one of your tours! (If you've started doing them already)
well I thought I knew most tube nerdery but this one was a complete revelation so thanks Geoff!
I was just at Kennington and got caught out by the change in platform. The DMI suggests that some trains continue to Clapham from platform 3 which as far as I can tell is never the case, they all go from platform 4.
I think you have your platforms mixed up, Platforms 1 & 3 are northbound platforms. Platform 1 feeds the Charing X branch and can be accessed from the Loop, Battersea PS & Morden. Platform 3 provides access to the Bank branch and can only be accessed from Morden. Platforms 2 & 4 are the southbound platforms. Platform 2 from the Charing X branch and it provides access to the Loop, Morden and Battersea PS. Platform 4 from the Bank branch and it only provides access to the Morden branch. All trains coming from the Bank branch continue on to Morden as they can't access the Loop. The majority of Charing X branch trains turn back at the Loop or Battersea PS. The amount of trains that continue to Morden from Charing X varies by time of day. Under the current schedule for example there are none during the weekday midday, but approximately every 1 in 4 or 5 trains during the AM rush do continue on to Morden from Charing X (Kennington Platform 2).
You mentioned "the spiral staircase at Embankment that no one ever uses.." these days that's true, and when the escalators at Embankment were last replaced, they closed both the Northern and Bakerloo platforms for several weeks, however, back in the eighties when they were previously maintaining the escalators there, they were taking one machine at a time out of service, maintaining an "up" escalator as far as possible at all times, and diverting people down the spiral staircase, that's probably the one I've walked down the most on the system for that reason!!
Come on TFL, give Geoff a tour of that old loop! Would be fascinating to see it.
Exceptional. Thank you!
Thanks Geoff for all this interesting stuff about London transport I didn't know when I lived there. Good insight.
My understanding is that the floodgates are a WWII addition. The danger was that if a bomb were the break the underground structure where it goes under the Thames the water would then flood the underground. Part of Embankment Station is quite shallow so the prospect was quite real. The trouble with such a shallow station was that the whole of the underground would start to fill up with water, we all know that water always tries to find the deepest point. So a breach at Embankment could find the whole Underground filling with water as it ran down the tunnels and down the shafts. Using the Underground as bomb shelters made the whole thing more complicated. You only have to look at Balham to see what could result. The floodgates were there to effectively isolate that part of the line under the Thames from the rest of the underground.
Fasinating! Thank you.
Very interesting,
Wonder if you can find out more about the third one for a video.
It is located off of Euston northern line Southbound Bank branch.
I always wondered where it actually lead to when i reversed there on a few ocassions when i was a driver there.
Check cartometro track map. From the look of it it's a connection to the northbound line, from before the Victoria Line was built
@@Chanemus Thanks i will do.
I think you mean the "Kings Cross loop" that's not really a loop. Its a connection to the Piccadilly line that used to be used to get stock to and from Acton Works for major overhauls but now probably only used to get new stock onto and old stock off of the Northern line and for engineering trains.
@@henrybest4057 we always called it the Euston loop but yes having looked at the track maps as suggested above it could also be called the KX loop.
Thanks for the info.
I left LT 26 years ago now to join my current profession but still retain a huge interst in as well as use the underground.
I love your videos, Geoff. Thanks very much for posting.
Brilliant...! Right, challenge - gain access to the disused loop...!! Legitimately, natch...
It is a gorgeous green tunnel - something the crossrail pedestrian tunnels are completely lacking - they're soulless bleached coral husks of the older tunnels
Too many loops on the bloody network, yet the Circle line isn't even a full loop.
@@bostonrailfan2427 Yet they are disliked by LUL because some trains end up 'the wrong way round'.
Ah well, Geoff goes and makes public one of my “interesting” epithets with which I bore my friends when in London 🙄
And it seems like Ryan has already revealed the story of the soldier who witnessed a whirlpool after a bomb landed in the Thames right near Hungerford Bridge that stopped within a few minutes. So that is my other “interesting” fact covered 😅
Ah well…🤷🏻♂️
Great video as ever and another splendid worthwhile topic 😎👍🍀🍻
Really interesting! I wonder if there're some ghost stories associated with this loop too...?
I've never ever used or even seen that passageway between the Northern and Bakerloo lines, or as a result, that spiral staircase! Must check them out next time
There's an interesting blog post about the WW2 bomb and this Tube tunnel at Embankment, with old photos and archival plans/maps, on Ian Visits:
www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2011/10/26/the-northern-line-tunnel-that-was-bombed-and-flooded-in-1940-and-is-still-sealed-shut/
Flood gates on tube stations? I love it.
2:41 Tubemapper would be proud 😁
@ScriptedHqrry tubemapper luke cuz you know he does TfL photography and stuff
Before the Northern line was extended beyond Archway (Highgate as it was) trains accessed Highgate depot from Archway trough a now disused tunnel. When we were kids we would walk into the tunnel from Highgate high level station. About halfway, tube train tracks joined it on the left, part of the G N railway to Alexander Palace.
In 1907 thr station now called Embankment was called Charing cross; the stations on your map called charing cross were called Trafalgar Square and Strand.
So if you ever stop posting shall we just go ahead and assume TFL have kidnapped you for giving away all their secrets?
ha ha, yes!! i think so ...
Marvel at your information…. Fantastic
I knew nothing about this! Incredible!
I already knew about this... the Carto Metro by Franklin Jarrier told me the whole palava
Great video Geoff, will love to see more videos like this about London's Abandoned & DIsused (& Haunted?!) bits!!
Didn’t knew about the second loop, very interesting video but it’s a shame you cannot ride it
The Northern Line is so complicated in terms of running, I can’t quite get my head around it. What routes are viable, e.g. can you go direct from Nine Elms to Edgware via the City Branch and vice versa for example. Or Kennington to High Barnet, or Battersea Power Station Station to Morden… It’s really about two, three or possible 308 different lines in one!
Hey Geoff. It always says "Do not use except in an emergency" at the steps. How do they mean that, like "We really don't recommend walking up so many stairs, we have lifts nowadays. But legally you can of course" or "You better not take one step up there, this is trespassing and illegal!"? It sounds to me like a command rather than an advice.
I wondered about that. Maybe there is an alarmed exit. Perhaps someone can go look?
it's not alarmed, there's no by-law that says you can't use them, i often use the steps when at Embankment just for the fun it .. and because no else ever does!
@@geofftech2 How about a pic of the exit when you're in the area? No rush.
@@geofftech2 Ok thanks for the quick answer
would be interesting to know if the flood barriers do still work.
Nope, none of them are working, they have all been welded in position, to stop them from moving as all of the hydraulic controls have been decommissioned.
@@TheLastSock If so, seems rather shortsighted given the possibility of global warming and sea or river levels rising. Of course we have the Greenwich Barrier now, but even so ...
@@bostonrailfan2427 Maybe too much grief to remove them and possibly damaging the tunnel lining, i used to travel from that platform daily and those gates are very obviously static now. I suppose it would be doable to put them back to use if needed with modern technology driving them.
Superb as usual!
This video is Geoff asking for somebody to show him the loop.
So where do you come out if you go up the secret spiral staircase?
Please someone gives this man the opportunity to visit that loop! 🙏🏻
I was under the impression that the loop was backfilled. Inspecting it might be difficult.
There must be a loop at Tooting Broadway the Northern Line does turn some services there.
Wow !! London Underground simple amazes me !!
Very nice story to make a thriller movie out of it!
Wow, I never knew this!
Oh, so that's why the platform is curved.
More secrets of the Northern line. The Kennington loop does look very different these days.
Bank DLR also has a loop
Awesome video
Just subscribed to your channel im a train lover and you seem like a really sweet guy keep the videos coming
7 dislikes? Why did the seven of you come here? Nice work Geoff.
did you know if you walked all the way down Braganza Street, got to the park, turned right and first building on your left, is the very secret "Simon Drake's House of Magic"? :)
Please make a video on all the uk train network through maps (like the eastcoast line)
Geoff I was thinking, at the bank terminus stop there is a secret passage straight to the northern line you should try find it!
When these loops were built, were the trains loco-hauled? If not, why go to the incredible expense of building a loop when all you need is a siding if the train has a cab at both ends?
I've always wondered that myself!
Are the 54 steps still a building of 15 floors?
Shouldn't you have mentioned that at the time you're talking about, Embankment station was known as Charing Cross? (And Charing Cross, Northern Line, was Strand. Even though the now-closed Aldwych was originally Strand!)
You could do a new series around loops that exist on the main rail network and I can think of a few on GWR SWR and Southeastern for a start
Geoff, great video. But could you also explain (if the info exists) why does the Northern line corkscrew itself a couple of times on the city line?
did the steps actually equal to 54?
The same as a 15 storey building
@@checji actually a 5 storey building