Massive Antietam Wargame
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- In this episode, the guys at Little Wars TV revisit the Battle of Antietam, fought in September 1862. Greg and Keith tour the battlefield in Sharpsburg, Maryland and debate how badly George McClellan bungled the campaign its climatic battle. Then, four players fight the wargame on a stunning 6'x4' tabletop with thousands of 6mm miniatures, using the rules Altar of Freedom. Can Robert E. Lee hold on against the odds? Find out this week on Little Wars TV!
For bonus content and much more, be sure to visit our official home at LittleWarsTV.com
And be sure to return to Little Wars TV for bloopers, a walking tour of Antietam National Battlefield, and our in-depth rule review for Altar of Freedom. If you're a fellow history geek and enjoy what we do here, subscribe and leave us a comment below!
Holy hell its refreshing to watch a wargame where the players discuss and enact strategy. Unlike so many war games wherein the forces literally just charge across the table into each other and the players roll ridiculous amounts of dice until one set of minis is gone.
Sounds like you are talking about Warhammer 40,000,000,000
the single coolest thing about Antietam is the continued presence of the Witness Tree by the bridge...a living thing that actually saw part of the fight
If you ever had walk 12 miles or more you know had hard it is to attack after wards those men on all side were very hearty men.
Ive walked 6 miles up a mountain and my legs felt like rubber. I got to see a beautiful view though.
lol Americans
Rob Degoyjm and Saltech I don’t want to come off as rude but “doing something” and fighting in a battle which is one of the most stressful and terrifying moments of a soldiers life, are two very different things. Especially considering that soldiers were discouraged from hydrating on the march because they believed it made them weak and disease plagued them. Not to mention the march was done with wool uniforms and and 50+ pounds of leather bound equipment.
@@saltech3444 but its fighting
@@bardthebowman866 We Americans have become weak.
Sort of stumbled across this whilst browsing American Civil War here on RUclips. As a Brit I find the ACM fascinating, more so than our own English Civil War, and although not into wargaming, I found your recreations interesting. I was also impressed to see a picture of Britain's, officially, greatest General on the war where this game was played. General William 'Uncle Bill' Slim who commanded Britain's XIVth 'Forgotten Army' during the Burma Campaign of WWII. An uncle fought and died during that campaign, so that is also another particular area of military interest. Thank you for the history lesson.
The Union non-coms that found the Special Order maybe got the cigars but paid for them with their lives-if I remember correctly 3 of the 4 got killed at Antietam. McClellan loved his creation, the Army of the Potomac, too much to a fault which in my opinion was why he was a backseat driver during battles instead getting his ass where it belonged on near the front lines. Another issue was McClellan was a War Democrat that wanted to fight a limited war to keep the potential damage down. This Democratic faction basically wanted to welcome the seceded states back into the Union with slavery still intact for a return to the antebellum days like nothing had happened. Impossible of course-and it would take a general that realized this with the application of total war.
A largely unknown Union general, Israel Richardson aka 'Greasy Dick' or 'Fighting Dick' made one of the numerous breaks in Lee's line that day. He led the attack, succeeded, took a breather to dress his lines for the killing blow but went down wounded. Same thing happened with Francis Barlow nearby. (Too bad Phil Kearny wasn't there where he would have been instrumental in leading a breakthrough attack. I've read that before he died at Chantilly there were rumors Lincoln and Stanton were considering him for command of the Army of the Potomac.)
McClellan was from very early on in his career as C-in-C of the AoP seriously and severely deluded by his belief that he was always outnumbered. He honestly believed that Lee had taken 100-150,000 men across the Potomac and though he had the ANV on the ropes he believed that Lee still had massive forces hiding... somewhere, so he wasn't willing to risk that final blow. It was the same bogey that crippled his leadership on the Peninsula.
As far as a new C-in-C, I've not read anywhere that Kearney was ever considered, though Lincoln twice offered command to Burnside who turned it down twice before he was finally ordered to take command in November '62.
I adore the Fog Of War management of this game - keep this sort of production up
Thanks, Bernard!
@@LittleWarsTV Greetings, may i ask where the miniatures are from?
Great stuff! Good humor and well narrated. Perhaps add in some commentary on how a critical dice roll affected an attack or how the players used the game mechanics to their advantage, it would go a long way to bringing the excitement of wargaming to the audience.
Wow, I didn’t think I was that into the ACW but this was such an awesome video. The narration was particularly good. I’m new to the channel but subscribed immediately. Keep up the great work!
Welcome, David! Hopefully we can interest you in a few other new periods, as well! We love wargaming in different eras of history here.
Could you guys do Chickamauga?
Discovered your channel today. What a great video, comes with battlefield takes... Aah :-)
Thx guys
Gentleman's Foul, drink on the table! 13:59
I also just discovered your channel took me back to my miniatures days of about 45 years ago. You guys are an absolute blast! Thank you so much I haven't enjoyed anything so much for ages!
A great all round video, well done.
The short history at the start was plenty to set the scene, the look at the terrain was very insightful.
You have encouraged me to dig out Altar of Freedom again and reread it, but also you showed the great benefits of having an umpire controlling the initial deployment and hidden approach moves adding to the 'confused' build up and unknowns.
Will be checking out all your vids.
Thanks for the time and effort in producing this, shows what a great game is all about.
Fantastic. I really got caught up in the excitement of the game and learned something about the battle. Thank you
Hasn't anyone heard of scouts, or pickets? :)
One of the things about the battle that struck me was that they spent half the day trying to cross Burnside bridge and the creek just isn't that big. They could've easily crossed it with infantry and put pressure on the whole line of the confederates. Talking about tunnel vision!
Greg: Loser has to grow Civil War Facial Hair.
Me: I'd already have that kind of Facial Hair If I could even _GROW_ Facial Hair.
This was excellent; interesting and informative and very well put together. I look forward to more.
Great memories of a teacher robert trout who gave me a life long love of history
Ah, this is a great hobby.
Unfortunately the numbers for Lees army is more lost cause mythology than historical fact.
Lee did claim in his report that he had 40.000men for the battle.
But His "40.000 men" where "effectives." That is men in the ranks with a musket.
Officers, everyone in the artillery and cavalry was not counted. So the total number of soldiers with his army was a good deal bigger.
The Union army did their counting differently and included the men who did none combat jobs.
And that was about 1 in every 6 men.
Also The federal army was suffering just as much from straggling as the CSA army was.
We got numbers from 3 union corps, and they where down to about 85% strength because of this.
The result is that the federals had maybe 55.000-60.000 effectives. Resulting in odds that is much closer to then the usual claims of 3:1 or 2:1.
Then add the fact than most of Lees units had been in large scale combat 2-3 times.
Where about 25% of the federal army had not seen any combat at all and some units had not even been in service for a month and was basically untrained.
And it is made up of corps from 3 different armies.
Sure McClellan did a rather poor job at coordinating his army, but the odds was not as strong in his favor as often claimed.
well said
rather poor job is being polite tho
I was Born and Bred in New Zealand but even as a child i was fascinated with the American Civil War and that only increased when Sid Miers Gettysburg and Antietum came out i must of spent hundreds of hours playing those games and the recent Ultimate General Gettysburg game but i still prefer Sids my Dream is to one day visit the American Civil War Battlefields. I have a particular affinity for Civil War artwork and in particular Don Troiani who ive spoken with several times via Facebook hes also quite a collector of Uniforms and equipment of the Civil War
You know, I drive myself mad with fog of war rules.
Idea one: 1 board with all units... wait then everyone will see everyone.
Idea two: 1 board with only mutually seen units.... wait then one general will know the other general knows they see their dudes.
Idea three: one table per player. ... wait that's stupid and expensive
The weakness of all board games: The Omniscient Eye in the Sky.
A view from across the Pond here. Altar of Freedom are a great set of grand tactical rules. The mechanics take a bit of getting used to, but they're well worth the effort and they create fun and challenging games, with what feels like plausible outcomes.
Nice video. Zach and Tony missed a trick by not claiming credit for clever use of interior lines!
Great video guys! Thank you for the upload and channel. Subscribed.
I have been waiting to see more videos ever since the gettysburg video!excited for this channel!
Then I'm afraid we've kept you waiting a really long time, Ed. Several years, in fact. But we did learn a few filming lessons between that first Gettysburg video attempt and what we're trying to do now!
Little Wars TV I have faith in you guys and very much look forward to future videos!
That Gattysburg game video got me into AoF and its great to see a new channel with some great content. Looking forward to more!
My great great great+ uncle fought in this battle.
Greg, thanks for working for NPS. Love our parks, monuments, and battlefields
great video guys, and you almost make me want to get back into Civil War gaming, if not for all the painting (horror). BTW I had 3 ancestors in the 51st PA, they took that bridge and got their whiskey
Don't forget your brothers in the 51st New York "The Twin 51st's"
@@christopherweber9464 the poor New York Boys got the wrong fence before that assault. I always mention the fact that, if not for that stone wall, I might not be here
Well, you inspired me to purchase the Altar of Freedom rules and start some 6mm armies. Thanks for the great series!
You too? Watching this is costing me!!!
Well done, guys. Well scripted, shot and (from a professional TV/Film sound recordist's and gamer's point of view) good production sound. Well edited for speed and interest as well.
Acknowledging that rules sets are a very subjective thing, I would suggest that Scotty Bowden's 'Star 'n Bars' 3rd remains the deepest, most satisfying set of ACW mini's rules. But I confess they are decidedly NOT for convention play!
Absolutely loved this video. The production values are outstanding and you guys seemed to be having so much fun, it's great.
hey I have a question for Greg, I purchased Altar of Freedom and I have to say I adore these rules, but I had 1 question, I feel the turn clock gives a player a perk that generals historically didn't have, what was the inspiration behind the turn clock, Did generals actually have the ability to dictate something like that? I am in no way trying to sound rude, like I said I love these rules, im just trying to understand them better. thank you so much
Sure, there's a discussion of the Turn Clock in the author design notes at the end of the rules, but memoirs and letters from generals on both sides throughout the war are filled with concern about attacking earlier in the day than their opponent and the need to "seize the initiative" so as not to allow the enemy to dictate the pace and direction of the fight. Grant's memoir in particular talks about this at length. He felt it was key to be the first to act, not only to spoil the enemy plan, but also to initiate his own. Lee foiled him on that count a number of times using the very same logic. How do you capture that obsession and that pressure commanders faced at the time? The ability to control the pace of the turn and expend energy (points) to do that is where the clock comes from. It simulates the "game within the game" every Civil War commander was playing against his opponent.
I've always wondered if it was ever determined who lost those orders. They were probably numbered.
Thomas Hazlewood Foote theorized that the orders were wrongfully copied by one of Lee’s aides and it was the copy that ended up in McClellan’s hands
A pretty nice episode. Keep going, I will watch all of them.
I will used this rules for our battles of the second empire, first of all Magenta. Vive l'empereur!
Later on in the season we'll be doing a famous battle from the FIRST empire. One of the guys in our club is into the Second Empire and has some great 6mm armies for Franco-Prussian war.
@@LittleWarsTV where can I get peices
This was really cool, I'm just starting to get into wargaming. This is very different from 40k, but I like it. Do you guys do other periods as well?
I am really enjoying your videos - thanks so much!! Really inspiring for my wargames.
Great job my great great grandfather was in the 27th Virginia stonewall brigade
No way you are gonna outsmart Marse Robert! - good try
This is amazing. Seriously amazing
Awesome stuff. I'd love to do this kind of wargaming. Subscribed and look forward to watching your videos!
Welcome aboard! We are very happy to have you!
I didn't realise Altar of Freedom was your set. I really rate them 👍. And great web support/ extras too.
Well done on the rules, and on this vid too ! 😀
Thanks Cardinal! Glad you're enjoying them!
This is very cool - you guys are doing some amazing work here.
Great video, and great rules we have been using them and like them.
Hey guys. I really enjoyed this, Thanks. The terrain was great. I was just wondering....My uncle Raymond served in the XIV Army in Burma during WW 2 so I was kind of thrilled to see a picture of Lt. Gen William Slim on your wall. Is there any particular reason why ? Or is it just cos it's a cool picture ?
Slim is on the club's "wall of heroes." We let each club member pick their favorite historical personality and hang a portrait on the wall. Ed chose Slim!
The Irish Brigade at the cornfield....Burnside’s Bridge...Bloody Lane...The Dunker Church....you guys are awesome!
This shows you that it's not easy destroying an army. And McClellan's critics have been unreasonable over the years saying he should have destroyed Lee.
Great video and game I also liked the rules review you did. Have you considered doing a how to play, blow by blow video of some of the games rather than the broad overview type of videos?
Real Battlefield, history lesson, great game, passionate guys, what's not to love. Can't wait for more.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. We have much, much more to come.
I'm curious how you think the relative casualties to both sides would be as opposed to the actual battle. Also, would Lee begin a quick withdrawl south in the aftermath?
Do World War 1 battles, and maybe alternate history. Me and a few of my friends and my brother are going to a Napoleonic War offensive into the Confederation of the Rhine, through Bavaria and Saxony. My friend is playing Prussia, brother Austria, I am going to play Bavaria and my other friend will play Saxony.
so small a scale My Confederate Army is Perry 28mm
Thanks to this video, I've now Subscribed, bought the Altar of Freedom rules, and started painting up the first units of my own 6mm ACW armies. How's that for inspiration?
That is inspired, Lee! Be careful, or by the time you get to the end of the season you'll have ten new rule sets on your desk...
This went from fun and games to basic survival education REAL quick!
Were there restrictions to limit corps commitments as per McClellan's historical state of mind? I realize many view that as nothing but a fait accompli and boring. But if not employed, the real challenge of Antietam is removed and Lee, who is disarmed from his premeditated strategy is placed at an ahistorical disadvantage IMHO. Great fun anyway!
Thanks, Thoms! The scenario has NO LIMITATIONS on McClellan moving any corps he chooses. Those kinds of artificial restrictions are not needed with this rule system. Altar of Freedom uses a "priority point" bidding system, where each army has a number of points to bid each turn on the divisions they wish to maneuver. Very simply, in the Antietam scenario, the Federal army has more corps and fewer points available. So while McClellan is free to do what he wants, he's historically hamstrung by a poor command-and-control staff system. Lee, on the other hand, has fewer divisions to worry about and more points to spend, allowing the Confederates more flexibility. Mechanically, in game terms, it gives Lee a fighting chance to hold back a much larger army.
8.30 makes me laugh every time I watch it.
Thanks for the video. The Altar of Freedom rules are fun to play.
Fog of war impact very realistic, interesting placement by your confederate players that they had their cavalry in Sharpsburg as opposed to covering the Hagerstown Turnpike. Very enjoyable game !!
To be honest, Antietam, is the demonstration that all generals involved in this war, ACW, were 5s for a Black Powder game. None of them 9s, or even 7s. The only good thing u see in this battle, where the Federals should have smashed the entire Confederate army, just by using their massive superiority to flank the Southerns surrounding them and making them impossible to run away, and destroying Lee's army (and some of their most famous allies), maybe capturing some of their commanders, or killing them...
Lee was unable to do something special to face a much bigger army, one that doubled them, and have some thousands more guys... He finally took the good decision to save his army, to fight another day. And make the war larger.
Seen a few vids and subbed but thought I'd watch from the beginning. Cracking video and great channel. On to the next vid :)
One of the amazing things about the real battle is the fight at Burnside's Bridge. In reality, the creek was quite shallow and they could've walked across it, but they had so much tunnel vision about crossing the bridge that the Union wasted their strength with attack after attack.
The other mistake that McClellan made was that he didn't attack the next day. He still vastly outnumbered Lee and could've destroyed him.
But, he let him retreat to fight another day. Grant would've kept attacking, and won the war.
As an 8 year old looking at the great golden book of the civil war i saw this and asked my civil war buff teacher that teacher took an interest that started a love of history which lasted a lifetime thanks robert
Just having a duh moment here, as I have finally realised that the rules I was introduced to by the Williamsburg Legati and reviewed for Meeples and Miniatures were written by Greg. Doh!
Don’t worry Union! You didn’t lose, you merely failed to win.
And they win in the end anyway, right?
Very nice combination of history and gaming - definitely a different approach. Great job guys - keep the vids coming!!
If I was playing the Reb side I would have had some kind of picket in Mercerville. Do the game rules not allow that, or was it an oversight on the part of the players?
08:05 We are fighting to defend our southern honor sir (a.k.a we wanna keep our slaves)
08:09 We have the right to govern ourselves (a.k.a we wanna keep our slaves)
The South fought for its Independence. Just as the Americans fought for theirs from The British Throne. The War between The States was the second American Revolution and it was fought to achieve Independence from the standing Federal Government.
@@GrinnandWinn Lol.... No
@@VictorFAmaya No laughing matter. You are wrong.
Mecclellan: i did not lose, i merely failed to win!
From a historical perspective, the problem was that Lincoln had not found the General and General Staff.
I wish they had casualty reports.
Very cool video! I’ll check out more soon. I’m from Frederick and am a big civil war fan, and I thought this was very well done.
Chris I am also a Frederick native and civil war buff!
Very cool! What got you started? I guess for me it was the first time I went up to Gettysburg. Then I realized Monocacy and Antietam were a thing lol
Excellent show, thank you very much! Extra props for the appropriate dice trays and the 'Slim' 14th Army Poster!
Thanks. We have a portrait wall in the club behind the bar where each club member picks a favorite general or figure from military history. One of the guys picked General Slim as his favorite.
You should have added an additional 1 month of beard growing penalty for each occurrence of uttering "calvary". A great episode; interesting set-up, good-looking table and miniatures, and a well produced video.
I'm glad you played Antietam, because few battles were ever more affected by poor communication and non-coordination. Lincoln was rightfully upset when McClellan failed to smash Lee when Union troops outnumbered the CSA forces 2-1. However, Little Mac was not responsible for how his Corps commanders let him and the Union down.
I heard the Federal Gov imposed a 20% tariff tax on imports the 2 biggest Southern tobacco and cotton 90% of the Fed Gov income came from this tax and Lincoln intended to double this if elected... NO WONDER the South rebelled almost the same reason that the colonies rebelled against England a 100 years earlier I'm sure every Southerner voted against Lincoln but they where outnumbered by Northern voters, Taxation without representation.. Remember in the early 1900's 12 year old children working 12 hours a day in northern factories. Northern greed caused the civil war an illegal war
Very interesting comment. What about Southern greed? The War was hardly illegal. The South fired on a Federal Installation and the war was on.
Could Zach make a short video to explain his techniques with cotton?
"... Very true! A major Union victory at Antietam could have trapped, and completely destroyed Lee's Army."
"And McClellan F*CKED IT ALL UP."
I DIED
2:40
I found the full cut of what that southern gentleman said "We have the right to govern ourselves... to own slaves"
I was not expecting your videos to be this good. great work.
Our Thursday night group in KC did Antietam a while back. We Union decided to fight the battle like a "zipper" opening with each attack helping the next attack down the line to open-up the Confed's positions ! First we opened attacking the weak South troops in the north and they fell back into the woods and the church - when it looked like we had them on the run we attacked the "sunken road" BUT were turned back there with heavy losses to the Union ! About noon we sent more troops straight across the creek towards Sharpsburg town but moving forward was slow and Confed troops from the north woods were coming in there ! Time was running out in the afternoon so we pushed across the "south bridge" (Burnside's) and the Confeds here were taking heavy losses - it looked like we would bag Lee's whole army THEN a whole fresh division from the south table edge hit us in the flank there that stopped the Union cold as the sun when down !!
You guys have too much fun.
Ya know, if I ever do an Antietam wargame, I think the “punishment” will be for the losing team to donate some blood; after all, it was the bloodiest day in American history, and what better way to commemorate the fallen then by helping to save some lives today?
The penalties for losers of your games (tar & feathers for Princeton, facial hair for Antietam) are hilarious! May suggest my own gang adopt something similar. As you can see by my picture, I'm already prepared to lose an ACW contest!
Great video. Very interesting to see an alternative Federal plan.
Awesome game! Loved watching this.
What rule set was this?
This particular game is called Altar of Freedom. We have a review and links to the website.
Antietam is definitely not the besg preserved battlefield in the world, Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
It would have been interesting if the union couldn't communicate ar all.
I liked and subbed. YoutTube finally sent me some quality and my interests.
Welcome! Glad to have you on board here!
I used to live in the town named after General Pleasanton, Pleasanton, California.
Love Bernard Cornwells four book ACW series the Starbuck Chronicles order 191 is in one of the books 📚
Ads are killing RUclips.
Repeated errors and crashes @7:40
We have top down view to battle over they had grass level FOW , must have been so important to have fast horse riders as signalmen . Also try to get the opposition to use their reserve first with switching tactics then counter punch
fun game . make me want to get a ACW army , thank you
@. 7:42 My dead grandma could rewrite the outcome.
@18:05 🎉
“I didn’t know you were a little Mac apologist” 😂😂
fun for sure, but the war last a little over two more years, not three.i want to do this. im 25 miles southeast of gettysburg!
This is great stuff guys! So much fun.
You guys should definitely try the original version of Kreigsspeil as played by Prussian officers
Why during the army comps do they say George B. McClellan lost the battle it was a phyric union victory
With superior numbers, it might have been an idea to get everyone into combat as soon as possible and maximise attrition.
The problem with gaming this battle - if the Union (under McClellan) aren't hampered and can commit all their corps at once without delay (anti-historical), then it will be a total blow-out for the Union each time. Many wargames have adopted some rules for handling this. I like the way that The Gamers did it with "In Their Quiet Fields" in that you have a number of "McClellan points" and each time that you commit early, you are deducted from these points which ultimately deducts from your victory point total. You may carry the day but may lose the game due to a VP shortage.
Yes I agree. I have played the Antietam scenario on a number of game platforms where there is no restraint or loss of points for the Union to have freedom of movement from dawn on. The Confederates get crushed…and in most instances the Union can be lying in wait for Hill. Regardless, even in the scenario played out here, I would assume I and XII Corps would be astride the confederate route of retreat. Hill would MAYBE be able to stop them, but they would not be pushed back. And as Lee tried to extricate himself on the 18th, those Corps would be able to slow him down, with the rest of the AOP crossing the creek on their rear. No escape. Again, of course, that is with no restrictions on movement.
The cavalry charge in this episode is one of my favorite moments in all their wargaming.