Player 1, "My army is full of dudes with one-handed swords and leather bondage gear for armor." Player 2, ".... my army is 95% archers." Player 1, "Lul no fair."
What you mention about pummelling to death with the shield, Tyrion does that to a bandit in episode 5 of season one using a kite shield. Excellent example of it.
I figured Jon keeping his head above the shield was kind of like being a goalie in a penalty shootout. He's looking to see where Ramsey's aiming and would have dipped his shield had Ramsey gone for his legs. As it was, R kept going for gold with Jon's cocoanut instead.
I'm pretty sure Ramsay would've been skilled enough to feint a shot towards his head, wait for Jon to raise the shield and then re-aim it at his lower body / legs. Even if Jon had faster reactions, just the mathmatics of angles and rules of inertia means that Ramsay could move his aim much faster than Jon could move that shield, which would've more than compensated for fractional reaction time differences. But hey it's films, they like to throw dramatic looking things in for the cinematography even if it doesn't make sense :-/
Yeah, I honestly think if jon hadn't had shield slapped Ramsey and his bow aside and started with the edge, he would have risked getting an arrow to the face.
Winterfell in the books has not 1 but 2 huge walls with a moat between them. Ned Stark said that 500 men can hold it against tens of thousands and in the show they give it a small gate...
Mat im surprised you didn't mention that if Ramsay wanted to just kill Jon he could just put an arrow in is chest while he was looking at Wan Wan insted of killing the giant
I think that was mostly a display of power, Ramsay is all about showing off his power and intimidating his opponents. "Hey I just killed a giant, bring it" I think it fits his character, he knew he was fucked but at least people will fear him even in his last moments.
I think the reason he grabbed the shield with two hands (aside from it being in the script) is that that particular type of shield uses a strap for the forearm as well, and that the straps are more to either side rather than one on the side and one in the middle. Jon had to move quick, so not enough time to slide his arm through and grip it properly, and he needed to be able to move it quickly and accurately which couldn't have been done if he were holding it off balance in one hand ( and he couldn't just keep it raised, or Ramsey would have just shot his legs.) So really, the only option to move well that quickly was to grab it by both straps.
I would have loved a Firefly-esque exchange with Jon Snow's soldiers. Wildling: This is something the Lord Commander has to do for himself. Jon: N-No, it's not! Wildling: Oh. *Shoots Ramsay with ALL the arrows*
Never played it but anyone watching this episodes would clearly be confused why Wun Wun was unarmed. I think even fanatics would find that plot hole to be extremely uncharacteristic.
Yeah, just give him a big log and a barn door or something with handles for a shield. And suddenly he's much more effective. They're not going to send men in empty-handed, so why do the same with a giant, who's the single most powerful member of their army?
I don't get why all of Jon's men let this fight happen. The battle's over. They're all standing there with weapons pointed at Ramsay. Why let Jon possibly die? I mean they all consider him to be almost a Messiah of sorts, why would they let him risk his life in such an idiotic way? It can't even be explained by suggesting that the Wildlings respect single combat too much, because they all know what is at stake here. If Jon dies here, the Wildlings will have exactly ZERO allies south of the wall. Jon is the only one with any political power who is allied with the Wildlings and who knows and cares about the White Walker threat.
Millitron It's a Hollywood movie logic, to give the hero/winner a power trip before ending the villain. We all know it's such a rare occurrences for a commanders to met each other on the battle or even have a duel in real historical battles. there's no logical way of an army would let their leader/king to be unprotected.
Croz Raven sometimes leaders really searched for each other on the battlefield, most times commanders are easily identified (in medieval times with their coat of arms per example). They mostly tried to capture the enemy tho (big money). Of course that became increasingly popular in later times, because of much bigger and more complex armies and battles.
Good point OP. At the very least Ramsay would not have had the chance to aim that second arrow at Snow, as soon as he moved his hand for it Snow's men would have killed him. Or again at the very least just shot him in the legs. I remember back in season one, a similar thing happened when, Jaime Lannister was fighting Ned Stark and a soldier of Jaime's side decided to intervene and put a spear into the leg of Ned, instead of getting the book version they teased us with a fight that they never completed, and here it's quite different. The highest leader, your only hope as some said, is facing a doomed enemy and you just stand and watch as the enemy shoots arrow after arrow at him.
Matt, when you said that these hand injuries happen "if you're not wearing boxing gloves" I showed my hands to my oldest son (watching this video with me) and stated "And they happen also when you do". Well done on the video, as almost always. Thanks, Dante.
Matt. I've watched this scene a couple of times and 2 things appear to contradict your assessment. Firstly, Jon used the flat of the shield l to r to knock aside Ramsay's bow, then on the backswing used it to punch him in the throat with the edge, which is why Ramsay went down like he's been poleaxed. Secondly, although it's not very clear, Jon appears to be wearing thick leather gauntlets, which you see in the long shot before he drops his sword and grabs the shield. Whilst not the same as hitting with a mailed gauntlet, I would have thought the leather would have given some protection to his hands sufficient for him to deal a severe pummeling to Ramsay's head. That said, having had his brother shot down by Ramsay and just had his friend slain as well, rational thinking was probably not uppermost in his head, he just wanted to beat seven shades of poop out of Ramsay's smug face.
J Corbett, Pause it at 8:10. His fingers are exposed. Nevertheless, an experienced and knowledgeable individual can punch someone else repeatedly in the face without breaking their hands.
Two points regarding the fight: Jon may be lowering the shield in order get a gauge of where the next arrow is going and then moves the shield accordingly, so if he see's Ramsay aiming low he can drop the shield down or drop to his knee and raise the shield to cover most of his body. I say this since I know that a technique in Broadsword and targe is to strike (or feint) at the face so the opponent raises his shield and blinds himself, leaving him more exposed for a follow-up attack to somewhere else. Second point, Jon strikes with the shield twice - once to knock the bow out of Ramsay's hand then with the edge as a punch to Ramsay's upper chest, which knocks him down. Anyway - great video, it has always bugged me Wun Wun wasn't used better. Also notice how long the soldiers around Jon manged to keep their warbows at full draw - it's quite a while.
Every one of my favourite youtubers have some staple video series. Metatron - debunking videos, Matt - fight reviews, Shad - video game castle reviews.
I'm new to the channel, but I already love your videos! I'm in school for teaching, majoring in history, so your in depth reviews of weapons, armor, tactics, and general atmosphere are both accurate and entertaining. Easy sub lol
Great analysis, as usual. As an archer myself, I think Ramsay's technique is okay, although a little far fetched in some scenes. I noticed he is using a flat bow- what would the poundage of such a bow be? I ask because he does not handle it as if it were a war bow. Twenty pound bows look great on camera but in a battle scenario, a bit of ummph in the power department always helps. This is 'television' and consequently the bending of reality for effect is expected and permissible. The 'Game of Thrones' is a wonderful series and full of enchantment for history buffs. Love your channel, Matt, keep up the good work. Cheers Flaxen Saxon
It's rather tragic if ye think about it...Wun Wun was the last of his kind. Now the original inhabitants of Westeros are dead (the children having died in the show in the cave). So basically Jons negligence caused the extinction of an ancient race. For shame, Jon! FOR SHAME!
The biggest tactical mistake Jon makes in this fight, is not telling his archers to shoot Ramsay. Contrary to what many motivational posters/quotes want to tell you, when it comes to life and death fights every one you don't fight is a win.
Really like your fight reviews... well, I like your other stuff too, but hey, these are often a highlight (beside port influenced midnight ramblings of course ^^)
Hey matt, i really enjoy the balance between pop culture and historical accuracy you are trying to achieve on your channel. You manage to teach all the while making the material interesting for people who are looking for serious knowledge and for people trying to entertain themselves. I have equal experiences with the channel "military history visualised". I would really appreciate a cooperative video about tactics and weapons and the influences they have on each other. Preferably about hand to hand tactics during the 17th century. Thank you for your consideration and for your efforts to educate us all. With high regards, Sjoerd.
Jon dropping his sword to pick up the shield was reasonable. It wasn't about holding the shield, it was about picking it up! Without using both hands, the first arrow would have hit before Jon could have grabbed the shield properly. He could have picked up the sword back up again afterwards, but he just didn't care anymore.
Great review as always. I feel as though a plot hole was the only option with Wun Wun. I say this because Jon's chances of victory would have been dramatically increased to the extent where his starting to lose might look unconvincing, had Wun Wun had a pole weapon and/or shield. Can you imagine him cleaving through the cavalry with a tree trunk? To be honest the pikes were hardly thick enough to do him any substantial harm, sure he would have suffered some superficial cuts and scrapes but he could have just charged at them and thrashed whilst the wildlings got in behind the ranks. Although enjoyable, a deeply flawed battle that very much felt forced into the GRRM's book direction, without the accompanying logic
Thanks for not using bad language! I really hate causal swearing especially when I just want to watch cool new vids and learn stuff. I REALLY APPRECIATE you not dropping the f bomb! Thanks!!
Matt, just a minor nit-pick on your submarine analogy. Tomahawk missiles aren't related to a submarine's defensive capabilities, but stealth is. A more accurate analogy would be "what's the point of a submarine if it sails on top of the water?". Cheers, enjoyed the video.
The remark about the arrows not being embedded deep enough is great. They look like the heads didn't go much past his clothes. It's furthermore a slip of the set design. I've shot bows before and I've had a few arrows buried up to the fletchings in the ground from a 35 pound bow at 30- 40 paces and that was just with blunt field tips.
Please do a Rewiev of the fight between the green and the black knight in "Monty Pythons an the holy grail". I just realised how good the choreography for a movie actually is
We love these GoT fight reviews. good job. Poor Wun wun didn't have enough money to pay the cgi artists to create him a shield or tree club....and i would add, Jon's anger while it might cause him to not think too clearly, it also creates the desire to use his bare hands to personally punch Ramsey's face into pulp. You see it at the end where he goes too far and realises it.
You are absolutely right. If they'd given the giant a weapon or armour, the giant would've won the battle by himself... That's exactly why they didn't give him weapons or armour! They needed the battle to be gruesome, victory and defeat to be close for both sides, and Jon to be a hero and the main focus of the viewer. Unfortunately, the TV crew only realize that giants were too strong and that having one in Jon's army wasn't a good idea too late, so all they could do was try to make the giant weaker in a way that most people won't notice. Thus, the giant wields no weapons or shields, not even a club. That's also why he is killed at the end of the battle. He was too strong to stay alive as a tertiary character, so having him die is the easy solution and avoids future issues.
I think the reason John lowers the shield after each catch is so that he can see if ramsey is changing his target. As you say if he just held it up ramsey might have shot him in the leg. So no i dont think its some sort of bait or taunt but rather so that he can move it down if he has the need. Nice vid as always Cheers from Sweden :)
The bit about the face of the shield vs the rim reminds me of the versatility of a flat sap vs a round blackjack. You can spread the force of the blow by hitting with the flat part, or disrupt and deeply bruise muscles by striking with the edge.
I think he needed both hands to pick up the shield very quick, if it is upside down it may take more than a second to pick it up and hold it properly with one hand.
Lowering the shield would have just been an intimadating thing I'd imagine, taking away Ramsey's biggest weapon of instilling fear, thus disarming him and not letting him get off on it.
I think the reason why Jon dropped the sword, and why he chose to pummel him with his fists was to do it in the most brutal way, with his own hands. In my mind, I think he was going "I'm going to kill you with my bare hands." When he dropped the sword and started advancing with the shield- same reason for why he dropped the shield next and went on with the clobbering.
When I first saw this scene I was sure that when Jon looks up at Sansa he was going to die again. He leaves himself totally open, Ramsay could have easily cut his throat if he'd had a knife, which isn't unlikely considering how fond he is of them.
I can imagine that it'd be hard to forge giant's weapons during some kind of medieval times, so yeah, an uprooted tree would work fine and a shield made with huge boards to go with it would be amazing.
I was pretty glad that the giant died, I was calling him "The giant solution" in my MST commentary because since his introduction he was either the great diplomat or problem solver for the Watch where at every impassable situation he shows up to giant his way through it. It got a little boring although very entertaining to see. In regard to the duel and shield/archery I can say that in games like M&B or Chivalry enemy archers do aim for the open area whenever they can so its understandable that ramsay who hadn't been a participant in a stacked fight (jon, jon's men vs ramsay and his men) may have felt the pressure to just shoot to kill. You covered the rest of the motives in the video but I felt like shitting my drunk opinions into the YT comment section.
I would say the reason he kept lowering the shield was so he could see where ramsay was aiming at and block accordingly and also tempt him to shoot at his head lol
One addition I'll add (which you touched on here) for reverse grip is that (much like standard grip) you can hold it with the edge in rather than out to both hook and cut out. Honeatly imo reverse grip is great for a dagger considering you have a double edge. As for striking I'd say its more coupling it with a punch rather than just hitting with the blade. Kind of think of it as a punch and then a slit/cut on the follow through then follow that up on the backhand with a stab.
Any chance of a video on Traditional Pugilism, it's techniques and how they differ from those of modern Boxing? You made mention of it here and it's a subject I've always been rather interested in.
Could you make a video describing common ways and setups for carrying a small sword or sabre, and how would one deploy these weapons from the scabbard in an emergency, such as an ambush, or were they reserved exclusively for prearranged combat, such as duels or military action?
Wun Wun looked so good because he was an actor in a suit that was digitally added to the scene. He wasn't a wholly CGI monster. Ian Whyte did a great job with Wun Wun.
I think Jon is clever when it comes to a 1 on 1 fight so it is possible that he unconsciously tempted Ramsey to fire at his body. Jon is like Goku. Dumb otherwise but smart when it comes to a fight
this is too late but welcomed. In the preceding battle, leather clothed wildlings got outflanked by armoured infantries which i still think its a forced plot. How primitive can they be, even wild animals would not let themselves encircled, but those wildlings were standing their ground and just watched.
Tbf it seems a bit stupid, but the obvious answer would be the wildlings are not used to facing infantry formations, they would be used to fighting each other but I don't think a great amount of sophisticated tactics would be used.
Yes, they couldn't see the man-sized pavises plastered with the banner of the Boltons moving about, the flag bearers carrying the Bolton banner or the formation of 15ft long pikes that are encroaching them. Clearly they lost all ability to perceive shit in the battlefield and all that gawking and looking about at the military genius unfolding in front of them is a ploy to...I don't know, maybe inflate Ramsey's soon to be dead ego?
makes total sense to me to lower the shield so you can see where and when he was going to shoot. if you just advance while hiding you have no idea if the guy is circling around you, grabbing another weapon, anything.
one of the rules of stunt choreography is that if its not seen on camera it doesn't exist. So without establishing the fact that the shield doesn't cover his legs beforehand, the audience isn't going to recognize that the lower half of Jon's body is exposed.
You raised two questions there. I think I might have answers for them. Q: Why did Jon drop his sword before getting the shield? A: Thanks to the design of the shield, where you have to run your hand through the "handles" (sorry I don't know proper English terminology), it would be time consuming to prepare the shield properly. It was a lot quicker to just grab it in both hands. Either way, shield can be used as a weapon as well as a sword, when you get close to your enemy. Yes, he could've grabbed the shield, take the first arrow with it and then properly arm himself with sword and shield, while Ramsay was preparing a new shot, but that would be risky I guess. Q: Why did Jon keep lowering his shield? A: Well if he didn't, he wouldn't see ahead. Yes, it wasn't necessary to lower it this much to see over it and I probably would lower it just under my chin, but considering the exhaustion, the rage he felt, he probably wasn't thinking very clearly by now. Good view of Ramsay also gave him a hint where he's going to shoot next, he saw, where's Ramsay aiming. I guess I would do the same in his place, in both cases, except for lowering the shield a little less than he did. Maybe I would crouch a little while advancing to Ramsay, but as I said, he might not been able to think really rationally by then.
Hi Matt, I've watched a number of your videos now, and would love to hear your review of Jorah Mormont's fight in the Mehreen Fighting Pits. There are a range of different styles and weapons used, armour v non-armour etc. I think it would be really interesting to see your perspective on this ... AND THERE ARE HELMETS and SHIELDS!! :D
You're right on: if he had armor, a shield and a weapon, he would have won the battle, and the siege, easily. But Game of Thrones is not in the business of showing battles with no stakes. So instead of spending a lot of time reviewing the script, or spending time doing more episodes to flush out a good story, they decided to make the viewers fall out of the suspension of disbelief, which is possible the worst thing that can happen when you're watching a movie, to score some emotionality points. It's despicable, really. I thought about saying "well, it's the showrunners' show, they ruin it if they want", but actually, it's not their show. There are so many people involved in doing this, that it's a disrespect to everyone involved. Benioff and Weiss are clearly not incompetent, after they ran out of Martin's material they still did at least one season that's universally liked; it's just that they were tired. They were rich, and they didn't have time to spend their riches with all the work that goes into making a good show, so they didn't do a good show. They could have retired and have other people run the show, but they would not pass up on the millions they made on Season 7 and 8. So that's how it ended. A tremenduous disrespect to everyone involved and scenes that only worked whatsoever because the previous work was good and because everyone else came through; the CGI, the clothing, the actors-it's just the writing that was lackluster.
I think that Jon dropping his sword to grab a shield actually makes sense. the shield in question had two straps on the back. Jon only had a split second to grab it no time to slip his arm through the straps. If he had grabbed it single handedly, it wouldn't have been very stable, as the straps aren't very tight, and neither strap is in the centre of the shield. If he grabbed the shield with one hand it would have been flopping all over the place when an arrow struck it.
Jon is lowering his shield when advancing for if he keeps it high all the time to protect his head and torso he wouldn't see Ramsay aiming and shooting. You can quite easily protect yourself with a shield against arrow (against single shooter only) when you see the archer aiming and the moment of releasing the arrow. We have checked it many times using blunt arrows during historical reenactment events in Poland. What's interesting - the easiest is to protect yourself on short and medium distance (for me 20-30 m), for you can quite clearly see the archer aiming and shooting, you can more or less predict where the arrow will hit, and still you can have enough time for reaction. On very short distance (c.a. 15 m or less) the moment from shoot to hit may be too short to react properly, especially when the shooter knows his business and can quickly change the point he aims at. On long distance (50 m and more, depending on how good eyes you have) it is difficult to see the archer and moment of shooting clearly, and avoiding the incoming arrow is very difficult if you do not see the moment of shooting. That's my point of view on that, supported by some practical experience. I have to add that avoiding war arrows will be more difficult than blunt arrows that are commonly used for reenactment events for the blunt ones are significantly slower and easier to see when they come :)
Loved the scene and he both used the flat of the shield to sweep the bow away and put Ramsay on his heels then he punched him with the edge of the shield to put him on the ground before the pummeling began. I was able to feel a great catharsis at the prolonged pounding as well, so I as an audience member I did appreciate it as well. I agree with your theory that after all that he was just crazy pissed, if I was John I would need to work out some rage issues with his face damn the minor hand issues, right now this just feels good :-)
This is an on going theme in hollywood they throw away their weapons as soon as they use them , regardless of whether it is a gun, sword, spear or shield , It must be in their contract, 'don't forget to throw away your weapon' .
My thought with him dropping the shield each time was that he was watching Ramsey to see whether he was shooting for head or legs so that he could raise the shield or drop it as required depending on whether Ramsey raised or dropped the point of the arrow.
Technically speaking, raising the shield again and again was probably necessary as it would already have the next arrow lodged in it. I'm sure they didn't film the scene by having someone shoot actual arrows or even blunt sticks at Harrington, so between shots the arrow props would've been added to the shield.
He dropped the sword when he grabbed the shield so that he had two hands to make sure he got the shield. It wouldn't have done him any good if he rushed to grab it with one hand, and didn't get a good grip on it to raise it into a defensive position. You see him specifically grab both handles. It was a very sensible move that saved his life.
Player 1, "My army is full of dudes with one-handed swords and leather bondage gear for armor."
Player 2, ".... my army is 95% archers."
Player 1, "Lul no fair."
What you mention about pummelling to death with the shield, Tyrion does that to a bandit in episode 5 of season one using a kite shield. Excellent example of it.
Indeed!
He does it in season 1 too. I think it's his signature weapon.
As Bronn once told him, "I saw you killing a man with a shield. With an axe you'll be unstoppable."
Well, he's not stupid.
If a dwarf with a shield is already lethal; imagine a giant with a shield.
"If you fill 'em full of arrows, they die"
-Quote of the year
I figured Jon keeping his head above the shield was kind of like being a goalie in a penalty shootout. He's looking to see where Ramsey's aiming and would have dipped his shield had Ramsey gone for his legs. As it was, R kept going for gold with Jon's cocoanut instead.
That's what i was thinking too. He needed to watch Ramsay while he was advancing.
I'm pretty sure Ramsay would've been skilled enough to feint a shot towards his head, wait for Jon to raise the shield and then re-aim it at his lower body / legs.
Even if Jon had faster reactions, just the mathmatics of angles and rules of inertia means that Ramsay could move his aim much faster than Jon could move that shield, which would've more than compensated for fractional reaction time differences.
But hey it's films, they like to throw dramatic looking things in for the cinematography even if it doesn't make sense :-/
"he is quite muscular and quite hard, i think the depth of penetration is absolutely fine" Matt - May 6th Anno domini 2017
Lmao can't believe I didn't notice that until you said it.
@@alkaholic4848 me neither, what a cheeky guy this Matt, went under my radar as well.
That’s what she said!
Shame nobody called 9 wun wun for medical help.
XD!! (serious face) Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.
The wunbulance didn't make it!
Just laughed at a gag for the first time in ages. Cheers!
If only they used him better, could have seen the power of Wun
oh, i wuno about that...?
the first strike was with the flat side of the shield. there was a second strike though with the edge of it . @10:38
Yeah, the first was to knock his bow away and stagger him and the second to knock him out.
Exactly. Not sure why Matt went on that point about the edge. Jon does that.
Yeah, I honestly think if jon hadn't had shield slapped Ramsey and his bow aside and started with the edge, he would have risked getting an arrow to the face.
moreover he punched the shield in his throat where it really hurts and most certainly drops the toughest guy.
Apparently that actually connected. The actor said they had to keep wiping the real blood away so they could apply the fake blood.
You would think the best castle in the north would have a portcullis.
No, just a thin wooden gate.
Seriously. Winterfell is supposed to be one of the biggest and most well defended castles in all of Westeros.
No it's not sorry
well it was sacked twice and burned once in the series
you know that it was sacked this in the books
Man I fucking love these, I want a whole channel just about you reviewing movie/TV battles.
Winterfell in the books has not 1 but 2 huge walls with a moat between them. Ned Stark said that 500 men can hold it against tens of thousands and in the show they give it a small gate...
"You don't send out a nuclear submarine without tomahawk missiles." - Matt Easton, military sensei
"I'm not sure that Jon Snow is that clever."
SAVAGE!
He knows nothing...😶
Mat im surprised you didn't mention that if Ramsay wanted to just kill Jon he could just put an arrow in is chest while he was looking at Wan Wan insted of killing the giant
He wanted to kill him in a duell
yes sure... a fair duel ;)
Meister Proper I didn't know Ramsay Snow was such honourable and fair-playing guy.
I think that was mostly a display of power, Ramsay is all about showing off his power and intimidating his opponents. "Hey I just killed a giant, bring it"
I think it fits his character, he knew he was fucked but at least people will fear him even in his last moments.
and killing Jon Snow wouldn't be a better show of power than finish a wounded giant that couldn't stand up anymore?
I think the reason he grabbed the shield with two hands (aside from it being in the script) is that that particular type of shield uses a strap for the forearm as well, and that the straps are more to either side rather than one on the side and one in the middle. Jon had to move quick, so not enough time to slide his arm through and grip it properly, and he needed to be able to move it quickly and accurately which couldn't have been done if he were holding it off balance in one hand ( and he couldn't just keep it raised, or Ramsey would have just shot his legs.)
So really, the only option to move well that quickly was to grab it by both straps.
I would have loved a Firefly-esque exchange with Jon Snow's soldiers.
Wildling: This is something the Lord Commander has to do for himself.
Jon: N-No, it's not!
Wildling: Oh.
*Shoots Ramsay with ALL the arrows*
I think that the armed and armored giant problem is really understated, do you even remember how broken Trolls where in third age total war?
Never played it but anyone watching this episodes would clearly be confused why Wun Wun was unarmed. I think even fanatics would find that plot hole to be extremely uncharacteristic.
Yeah, just give him a big log and a barn door or something with handles for a shield. And suddenly he's much more effective. They're not going to send men in empty-handed, so why do the same with a giant, who's the single most powerful member of their army?
Strap the barn walls to his legs and torso and bam - effective armour too.
Or make a thick, a really thick gambeson, imagine how many layers a gaint sized version would have.
I don't get why all of Jon's men let this fight happen. The battle's over. They're all standing there with weapons pointed at Ramsay. Why let Jon possibly die? I mean they all consider him to be almost a Messiah of sorts, why would they let him risk his life in such an idiotic way?
It can't even be explained by suggesting that the Wildlings respect single combat too much, because they all know what is at stake here. If Jon dies here, the Wildlings will have exactly ZERO allies south of the wall. Jon is the only one with any political power who is allied with the Wildlings and who knows and cares about the White Walker threat.
Millitron It's a Hollywood movie logic, to give the hero/winner a power trip before ending the villain. We all know it's such a rare occurrences for a commanders to met each other on the battle or even have a duel in real historical battles. there's no logical way of an army would let their leader/king to be unprotected.
Croz Raven sometimes leaders really searched for each other on the battlefield, most times commanders are easily identified (in medieval times with their coat of arms per example). They mostly tried to capture the enemy tho (big money). Of course that became increasingly popular in later times, because of much bigger and more complex armies and battles.
Good point OP. At the very least Ramsay would not have had the chance to aim that second arrow at Snow, as soon as he moved his hand for it Snow's men would have killed him. Or again at the very least just shot him in the legs.
I remember back in season one, a similar thing happened when, Jaime Lannister was fighting Ned Stark and a soldier of Jaime's side decided to intervene and put a spear into the leg of Ned, instead of getting the book version they teased us with a fight that they never completed, and here it's quite different.
The highest leader, your only hope as some said, is facing a doomed enemy and you just stand and watch as the enemy shoots arrow after arrow at him.
Matt, when you said that these hand injuries happen "if you're not wearing boxing gloves" I showed my hands to my oldest son (watching this video with me) and stated "And they happen also when you do". Well done on the video, as almost always. Thanks, Dante.
Watch +EnglishMartialArts for Pugilism videos! Classical HEMA boxing
Thank-you John, I do. Dante.
Matt. I've watched this scene a couple of times and 2 things appear to contradict your assessment.
Firstly, Jon used the flat of the shield l to r to knock aside Ramsay's bow, then on the backswing used it to punch him in the throat with the edge, which is why Ramsay went down like he's been poleaxed.
Secondly, although it's not very clear, Jon appears to be wearing thick leather gauntlets, which you see in the long shot before he drops his sword and grabs the shield. Whilst not the same as hitting with a mailed gauntlet, I would have thought the leather would have given some protection to his hands sufficient for him to deal a severe pummeling to Ramsay's head. That said, having had his brother shot down by Ramsay and just had his friend slain as well, rational thinking was probably not uppermost in his head, he just wanted to beat seven shades of poop out of Ramsay's smug face.
J Corbett, Pause it at 8:10. His fingers are exposed. Nevertheless, an experienced and knowledgeable individual can punch someone else repeatedly in the face without breaking their hands.
Like everyone says and agrees with, that thought was probably not on Jon's mind as he was pummeling Ramsay's face.
Two points regarding the fight:
Jon may be lowering the shield in order get a gauge of where the next arrow is going and then moves the shield accordingly, so if he see's Ramsay aiming low he can drop the shield down or drop to his knee and raise the shield to cover most of his body. I say this since I know that a technique in Broadsword and targe is to strike (or feint) at the face so the opponent raises his shield and blinds himself, leaving him more exposed for a follow-up attack to somewhere else.
Second point, Jon strikes with the shield twice - once to knock the bow out of Ramsay's hand then with the edge as a punch to Ramsay's upper chest, which knocks him down.
Anyway - great video, it has always bugged me Wun Wun wasn't used better. Also notice how long the soldiers around Jon manged to keep their warbows at full draw - it's quite a while.
Wildings are stronger than 10 southerners
Not stronger than Yggrite though, the Universe's strongest entity.
"...and a lot less people would have died on Jon Snows side". The military history of the Starks in one sentence.
"Starks, quick tempers, slow minds." -- Little Finger
I always agreed with his sentiments
Matt, Jon used the flat of the shield to sweep the bow away and then used the edge (like you suggested he should) to knock Ramsay down.
Every one of my favourite youtubers have some staple video series. Metatron - debunking videos, Matt - fight reviews, Shad - video game castle reviews.
I'm new to the channel, but I already love your videos! I'm in school for teaching, majoring in history, so your in depth reviews of weapons, armor, tactics, and general atmosphere are both accurate and entertaining. Easy sub lol
Great analysis, as usual. As an archer myself, I think Ramsay's technique is okay, although a little far fetched in some scenes. I noticed he is using a flat bow- what would the poundage of such a bow be? I ask because he does not handle it as if it were a war bow. Twenty pound bows look great on camera but in a battle scenario, a bit of ummph in the power department always helps. This is 'television' and consequently the bending of reality for effect is expected and permissible. The 'Game of Thrones' is a wonderful series and full of enchantment for history buffs. Love your channel, Matt, keep up the good work.
Cheers
Flaxen Saxon
It's rather tragic if ye think about it...Wun Wun was the last of his kind. Now the original inhabitants of Westeros are dead (the children having died in the show in the cave). So basically Jons negligence caused the extinction of an ancient race. For shame, Jon! FOR SHAME!
I doubt that a single Wun Wun could sire offsprings, so the doom of the species is not Jons fault.
edi Maybe they lay eggs and are hermaphrodites? Ever seen a female giant?
Ser Strigori. well Wun wun being only wun giant I think his race was effectively extinct a while ago. but thats just wun opinion.
I guess, it's like with dwarves: both have beards...
Can you tell a male from a female raven apart either?
Jon snow knows nothing
A bit off topic but can you do a review for The Duellists (1977) think it would make for a great video!
The biggest tactical mistake Jon makes in this fight, is not telling his archers to shoot Ramsay. Contrary to what many motivational posters/quotes want to tell you, when it comes to life and death fights every one you don't fight is a win.
Really like your fight reviews... well, I like your other stuff too, but hey, these are often a highlight (beside port influenced midnight ramblings of course ^^)
man now looking back on it, in jons mashing of ramseys face you can really tell its a sound effect being played each punch
So you're saying if Jon had armoured his giant, he would've more easily *cough* won-won the battle...? I'll see myself out...
Hey matt, i really enjoy the balance between pop culture and historical accuracy you are trying to achieve on your channel. You manage to teach all the while making the material interesting for people who are looking for serious knowledge and for people trying to entertain themselves. I have equal experiences with the channel "military history visualised". I would really appreciate a cooperative video about tactics and weapons and the influences they have on each other. Preferably about hand to hand tactics during the 17th century. Thank you for your consideration and for your efforts to educate us all. With high regards,
Sjoerd.
It looks like with the first hit Jon Snow used the front of the shield to disarm Ramsay and then struck him with the edge to knock him down.
Jon dropping his sword to pick up the shield was reasonable. It wasn't about holding the shield, it was about picking it up! Without using both hands, the first arrow would have hit before Jon could have grabbed the shield properly.
He could have picked up the sword back up again afterwards, but he just didn't care anymore.
the wildlings should have shields too.. if won-won could have thrown rocks at people it would have been a huge advantage
Sacrificing their walking siege weapon drove me nuts.
Great review as always. I feel as though a plot hole was the only option with Wun Wun. I say this because Jon's chances of victory would have been dramatically increased to the extent where his starting to lose might look unconvincing, had Wun Wun had a pole weapon and/or shield. Can you imagine him cleaving through the cavalry with a tree trunk? To be honest the pikes were hardly thick enough to do him any substantial harm, sure he would have suffered some superficial cuts and scrapes but he could have just charged at them and thrashed whilst the wildlings got in behind the ranks. Although enjoyable, a deeply flawed battle that very much felt forced into the GRRM's book direction, without the accompanying logic
Thanks for not using bad language! I really hate causal swearing especially when I just want to watch cool new vids and learn stuff. I REALLY APPRECIATE you not dropping the f bomb! Thanks!!
When I watched that episode, I cheered with every hit. Every time Jon landed one, I screamed "HELL YEA!!!" unfortunately, I woke my parents up.
it'S nice you analysed some things out of different perspectives.
12:32 "Jon Snow is EXCEEDINGLY pissed off with Ramsey!"
That's an understatement.
He's so damn happy about the pummeling, I love it.
How about a fight review from any of the fights in Alatriste?
Si, por favor.
Matt i love the content keep making videos, they are so interesting
Matt, just a minor nit-pick on your submarine analogy. Tomahawk missiles aren't related to a submarine's defensive capabilities, but stealth is. A more accurate analogy would be "what's the point of a submarine if it sails on top of the water?".
Cheers, enjoyed the video.
The remark about the arrows not being embedded deep enough is great. They look like the heads didn't go much past his clothes.
It's furthermore a slip of the set design. I've shot bows before and I've had a few arrows buried up to the fletchings in the ground from a 35 pound bow at 30- 40 paces and that was just with blunt field tips.
Please do a Rewiev of the fight between the green and the black knight in "Monty Pythons an the holy grail". I just realised how good the choreography for a movie actually is
Fantastic idea for an early April video
We love these GoT fight reviews. good job. Poor Wun wun didn't have enough money to pay the cgi artists to create him a shield or tree club....and i would add, Jon's anger while it might cause him to not think too clearly, it also creates the desire to use his bare hands to personally punch Ramsey's face into pulp. You see it at the end where he goes too far and realises it.
I don't know why I watch these. I already have all these thoughts when I watch the original content, yet i keep watching these.
You are absolutely right. If they'd given the giant a weapon or armour, the giant would've won the battle by himself... That's exactly why they didn't give him weapons or armour! They needed the battle to be gruesome, victory and defeat to be close for both sides, and Jon to be a hero and the main focus of the viewer.
Unfortunately, the TV crew only realize that giants were too strong and that having one in Jon's army wasn't a good idea too late, so all they could do was try to make the giant weaker in a way that most people won't notice. Thus, the giant wields no weapons or shields, not even a club.
That's also why he is killed at the end of the battle. He was too strong to stay alive as a tertiary character, so having him die is the easy solution and avoids future issues.
I think the reason John lowers the shield after each catch is so that he can see if ramsey is changing his target. As you say if he just held it up ramsey might have shot him in the leg. So no i dont think its some sort of bait or taunt but rather so that he can move it down if he has the need. Nice vid as always Cheers from Sweden :)
just after I finished watching other reviews. awesome
The bit about the face of the shield vs the rim reminds me of the versatility of a flat sap vs a round blackjack. You can spread the force of the blow by hitting with the flat part, or disrupt and deeply bruise muscles by striking with the edge.
I think he needed both hands to pick up the shield very quick, if it is upside down it may take more than a second to pick it up and hold it properly with one hand.
Do a video on lances, please
Wun Wun was so hard even his nightmares was scared of him
Lowering the shield would have just been an intimadating thing I'd imagine, taking away Ramsey's biggest weapon of instilling fear, thus disarming him and not letting him get off on it.
I think the reason why Jon dropped the sword, and why he chose to pummel him with his fists was to do it in the most brutal way, with his own hands. In my mind, I think he was going "I'm going to kill you with my bare hands." When he dropped the sword and started advancing with the shield- same reason for why he dropped the shield next and went on with the clobbering.
When I first saw this scene I was sure that when Jon looks up at Sansa he was going to die again. He leaves himself totally open, Ramsay could have easily cut his throat if he'd had a knife, which isn't unlikely considering how fond he is of them.
"I used to be an adventurer like you then I took an arrow in the knee" Yes ! In a parallel universe, Jon Snow was that guard !
Looks like the initial strike with the shield is a backhand with the main area to know the bow away, but the follow up strike is with the shield edge.
Who else used this as an excuse to watch Jon beat the piss outta Ramsay just one more time?
:P
I can imagine that it'd be hard to forge giant's weapons during some kind of medieval times, so yeah, an uprooted tree would work fine and a shield made with huge boards to go with it would be amazing.
I was pretty glad that the giant died, I was calling him "The giant solution" in my MST commentary because since his introduction he was either the great diplomat or problem solver for the Watch where at every impassable situation he shows up to giant his way through it. It got a little boring although very entertaining to see. In regard to the duel and shield/archery I can say that in games like M&B or Chivalry enemy archers do aim for the open area whenever they can so its understandable that ramsay who hadn't been a participant in a stacked fight (jon, jon's men vs ramsay and his men) may have felt the pressure to just shoot to kill. You covered the rest of the motives in the video but I felt like shitting my drunk opinions into the YT comment section.
I would say the reason he kept lowering the shield was so he could see where ramsay was aiming at and block accordingly and also tempt him to shoot at his head lol
One addition I'll add (which you touched on here) for reverse grip is that (much like standard grip) you can hold it with the edge in rather than out to both hook and cut out. Honeatly imo reverse grip is great for a dagger considering you have a double edge. As for striking I'd say its more coupling it with a punch rather than just hitting with the blade. Kind of think of it as a punch and then a slit/cut on the follow through then follow that up on the backhand with a stab.
Couldn't agree more with your thoughts on arming Won Won.
Loveee these vids, keep them coming in season 7. ;)
"Im not shure John Snow is that clever" ;D
Any chance of a video on Traditional Pugilism, it's techniques and how they differ from those of modern Boxing?
You made mention of it here and it's a subject I've always been rather interested in.
Can you make a video about scimitars pirates used?
Pirates didn't use scimitars :-)
I think he already did.
Not even pirates from the Barbary Coast?
You mean cutlasses/hangers? He has a video on them. Search is your friend.
Well there goes that character. Did they use any type of thick sword at all? Ones that were longer and more sturdy than hangers?
"he is quite hard so i think the depth of penetration is absolutely fine" - Matt Easton 2017
Could you make a video describing common ways and setups for carrying a small sword or sabre, and how would one deploy these weapons from the scabbard in an emergency, such as an ambush, or were they reserved exclusively for prearranged combat, such as duels or military action?
Wun Wun looked so good because he was an actor in a suit that was digitally added to the scene. He wasn't a wholly CGI monster. Ian Whyte did a great job with Wun Wun.
Wow I haven't seen a video early enough to get it before RUclips has processed higher quality versions in _ages_.
9:41 that's exactly my thought as well. good points sir
Ah! Thanks Matt! Was gonna message ya yesterday bout doing a movie/show fight review. Thought it was a while lol
10:36 The arrows look to have made a good 6 inch through the shield. I like how they conveniently missed his forearm.
I think Jon is clever when it comes to a 1 on 1 fight so it is possible that he unconsciously tempted Ramsey to fire at his body. Jon is like Goku. Dumb otherwise but smart when it comes to a fight
this is too late but welcomed. In the preceding battle, leather clothed wildlings got outflanked by armoured infantries which i still think its a forced plot. How primitive can they be, even wild animals would not let themselves encircled, but those wildlings were standing their ground and just watched.
Tbf it seems a bit stupid, but the obvious answer would be the wildlings are not used to facing infantry formations, they would be used to fighting each other but I don't think a great amount of sophisticated tactics would be used.
Yes, they couldn't see the man-sized pavises plastered with the banner of the Boltons moving about, the flag bearers carrying the Bolton banner or the formation of 15ft long pikes that are encroaching them. Clearly they lost all ability to perceive shit in the battlefield and all that gawking and looking about at the military genius unfolding in front of them is a ploy to...I don't know, maybe inflate Ramsey's soon to be dead ego?
Look to your left/right and run the hell out of there. That's basically what people did.
Whole formation of pikemen and other guys that they've seen on the enemy's side moving in on both sides. Totally not getting surrounded.
If someone had thought to give Wun Wun a giant log that shield wall would have been demolished.
Giving Wun Wun a giant golf club could have been hilarious, given the lack of effective helmets.
makes total sense to me to lower the shield so you can see where and when he was going to shoot. if you just advance while hiding you have no idea if the guy is circling around you, grabbing another weapon, anything.
one of the rules of stunt choreography is that if its not seen on camera it doesn't exist. So without establishing the fact that the shield doesn't cover his legs beforehand, the audience isn't going to recognize that the lower half of Jon's body is exposed.
You raised two questions there. I think I might have answers for them.
Q: Why did Jon drop his sword before getting the shield?
A: Thanks to the design of the shield, where you have to run your hand through the "handles" (sorry I don't know proper English terminology), it would be time consuming to prepare the shield properly. It was a lot quicker to just grab it in both hands. Either way, shield can be used as a weapon as well as a sword, when you get close to your enemy. Yes, he could've grabbed the shield, take the first arrow with it and then properly arm himself with sword and shield, while Ramsay was preparing a new shot, but that would be risky I guess.
Q: Why did Jon keep lowering his shield?
A: Well if he didn't, he wouldn't see ahead. Yes, it wasn't necessary to lower it this much to see over it and I probably would lower it just under my chin, but considering the exhaustion, the rage he felt, he probably wasn't thinking very clearly by now. Good view of Ramsay also gave him a hint where he's going to shoot next, he saw, where's Ramsay aiming.
I guess I would do the same in his place, in both cases, except for lowering the shield a little less than he did. Maybe I would crouch a little while advancing to Ramsay, but as I said, he might not been able to think really rationally by then.
10:03 Probably, he's not. Jon Snow is not clever in general.
Hi Matt, I've watched a number of your videos now, and would love to hear your review of Jorah Mormont's fight in the Mehreen Fighting Pits. There are a range of different styles and weapons used, armour v non-armour etc. I think it would be really interesting to see your perspective on this ... AND THERE ARE HELMETS and SHIELDS!! :D
When Jon was lowering the shield, I figured he did it so he could see where Ramsey was aiming his next shot...
You're right on: if he had armor, a shield and a weapon, he would have won the battle, and the siege, easily. But Game of Thrones is not in the business of showing battles with no stakes. So instead of spending a lot of time reviewing the script, or spending time doing more episodes to flush out a good story, they decided to make the viewers fall out of the suspension of disbelief, which is possible the worst thing that can happen when you're watching a movie, to score some emotionality points. It's despicable, really. I thought about saying "well, it's the showrunners' show, they ruin it if they want", but actually, it's not their show. There are so many people involved in doing this, that it's a disrespect to everyone involved.
Benioff and Weiss are clearly not incompetent, after they ran out of Martin's material they still did at least one season that's universally liked; it's just that they were tired. They were rich, and they didn't have time to spend their riches with all the work that goes into making a good show, so they didn't do a good show. They could have retired and have other people run the show, but they would not pass up on the millions they made on Season 7 and 8. So that's how it ended. A tremenduous disrespect to everyone involved and scenes that only worked whatsoever because the previous work was good and because everyone else came through; the CGI, the clothing, the actors-it's just the writing that was lackluster.
I think that Jon dropping his sword to grab a shield actually makes sense. the shield in question had two straps on the back. Jon only had a split second to grab it no time to slip his arm through the straps. If he had grabbed it single handedly, it wouldn't have been very stable, as the straps aren't very tight, and neither strap is in the centre of the shield. If he grabbed the shield with one hand it would have been flopping all over the place when an arrow struck it.
Please analyze Ramsey's fight with his dogs.
Why didn't you review the next fight after this? Can you please review Ramsay vs Dogs Fight?
These videos are wonderful.
Jon is lowering his shield when advancing for if he keeps it high all the time to protect his head and torso he wouldn't see Ramsay aiming and shooting. You can quite easily protect yourself with a shield against arrow (against single shooter only) when you see the archer aiming and the moment of releasing the arrow. We have checked it many times using blunt arrows during historical reenactment events in Poland. What's interesting - the easiest is to protect yourself on short and medium distance (for me 20-30 m), for you can quite clearly see the archer aiming and shooting, you can more or less predict where the arrow will hit, and still you can have enough time for reaction. On very short distance (c.a. 15 m or less) the moment from shoot to hit may be too short to react properly, especially when the shooter knows his business and can quickly change the point he aims at. On long distance (50 m and more, depending on how good eyes you have) it is difficult to see the archer and moment of shooting clearly, and avoiding the incoming arrow is very difficult if you do not see the moment of shooting. That's my point of view on that, supported by some practical experience. I have to add that avoiding war arrows will be more difficult than blunt arrows that are commonly used for reenactment events for the blunt ones are significantly slower and easier to see when they come :)
Loved the scene and he both used the flat of the shield to sweep the bow away and put Ramsay on his heels then he punched him with the edge of the shield to put him on the ground before the pummeling began. I was able to feel a great catharsis at the prolonged pounding as well, so I as an audience member I did appreciate it as well. I agree with your theory that after all that he was just crazy pissed, if I was John I would need to work out some rage issues with his face damn the minor hand issues, right now this just feels good :-)
I used to be an adventurer like Jon Snow but then I took an arrow to the knee.
classic
This is an on going theme in hollywood they throw away their weapons as soon as they use them , regardless of whether it is a gun, sword, spear or shield , It must be in their contract, 'don't forget to throw away your weapon' .
My thought with him dropping the shield each time was that he was watching Ramsey to see whether he was shooting for head or legs so that he could raise the shield or drop it as required depending on whether Ramsey raised or dropped the point of the arrow.
Technically speaking, raising the shield again and again was probably necessary as it would already have the next arrow lodged in it. I'm sure they didn't film the scene by having someone shoot actual arrows or even blunt sticks at Harrington, so between shots the arrow props would've been added to the shield.
He dropped the sword when he grabbed the shield so that he had two hands to make sure he got the shield. It wouldn't have done him any good if he rushed to grab it with one hand, and didn't get a good grip on it to raise it into a defensive position. You see him specifically grab both handles. It was a very sensible move that saved his life.
Also, minor point, Jon is wearing armour - the standard Stark soldier skirted brigandine tabbard thing. No mail underneath though...