Malacòth (kingdoms) derives from the Hebrew word malchut (with a guttural CH like in loch and Chanukah). It's also related to the words melech (king), angel (malach), and queen (malka). The Mandelbaum notes say this hymn is based on the Sanctus part of Mass, which originally comes from the Kedushah, one of the prayers in the Amidah (a long standing prayer in the middle of services), "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts. The whole world is filled with your glory." The deicide charge is really hard to read, since that was the basis of almost 2,000 years of European antisemitism and ultimately culminated in the Shoah, and thus caused of a lot of generational trauma. When I first read the poem at age 24, that was one of the things that most bothered me. While it still is hurtful to read, I'm old enough now to know how to put it in overall context and intent, and I prefer a handful of lines like that to outright hateful things like the Prioress's Tale in The Canterbury Tales (a disgusting blood libel that endorses violent pogroms). I give Dante a lot of credit for being more advanced, sympathetic, and nuanced in his feelings towards women, religious minorities, and gay men than almost everyone else in the Middle Ages. Interfaith friendship and dialogue have also come a long way over the last 70 years. I agree about the expulsion from a paradise-like world being found in many different cultures around the world. I'm a strong believer in Carl Jung's theory of race memories, manifested in things like archetypes and the collective unconscious. The expulsion from Eden is probably based on a violent extinction event during the Pliocene Epoch. My anthropology professor claimed every volcano on Earth blew up at once and that there are backwards-facing male and female footprints in this ancient hardened ash, looking back at their vanished peaceful world. Some of the comments about free will and why God can't just create us to be perfect remind me of Monsieur l'Abbé T., a radical priest in Thérèse Philosophe (possibly written by Jean-Baptiste de Boyer). This book hasn't been fully translated into English to my knowledge, but there's a very generous excerpt of about 50 pages in Robert Darnton's The Forbidden Bestsellers of Pre-Revolutionary France. He says things like "But God, who is all-knowing, knew very well that men would not change their behavior," "God would only have to destroy the Devil and we would all be saved," and "Thus, with this foreknowledge, God, in creating us, knew in advance that we would be eternally damned and eternally miserable." Those ideas don't allow any room for free will, and a perfect life without any temptations or suffering would be rather boring.
So much great stuff here, but what hits me most is the strength of the cultural conflict with the Jewish world. I didn’t know about the Prioress’ Tale! I’ll take a look. It’s true that antisemitism finds his roots in the deicide charge. From the little history I know about this matter, I understand there are some other factors to consider (social, economic, political, etc.) that developed over the centuries and that make that tragic side of history very complex. What stands out to me is this great paradox of the Jewish tradition: we could say that the “cultural milieu” of the coming of Christ, and Christ’s language itself, are a direct result of the Jewish genius. And yet, it all went in separate directions. Like you say, the good news is that Interfaith dialogue and respect is getting stronger in these days. It doesn’t sell newspapers, but it’s happening and it’s pretty astounding when we look at the past and compare.
This is such an excellent decision 😅 !! You’re going to find tons of youtube content to help you organize your trip, but if you have any questions feel free to come back here and ask me (or send me an email, my address is in my channel’s “about” section). One thing is for sure, you’re going to LOVE Florence. And, as you know, Dante is in every corner of the city… what a bittersweet irony!
Thank you for adding so much to my learning experience of Dante. Now I truly know what I missed when I left Italy as a little boy. I would have studied Dante and other classical Italian writings then. I'm catching up at my advanced state in life. Grazie.
Thank you so much Tom for unravelling this for us. Enlightening! But I do wonder if this idea that man is above the other creatures has led to indifference to their massive suffering at our hands.
Good point - no doubt that has contributed, and to be fair, this is an ‘idea’ that Homo Sapiens have had since the dawn of time, long before christianity and other religions came about. There are some good signs in our modern world, like for example the successful efforts to save the whales from a hunting industry that had almost wiped them out by the ‘80s, but there is still so much to do on that front.
So profound - I love your analysis as always. Thank you. This is such an important canto. I especially like that you included Nembrini’s thoughts, it added an extra depth. I never thought of incarnation as the foundation of the freedom od men, but then again I never thought about it much and really appreciate all the comments🙏 Also that poem is just wonderful. I saw in another comment that you went ahead and bought Peguy’s book of poetry - looking forward to hearing more poems/a review on it.
Very happy this resonated with you, my friend. I’m so looking forward to reading Peguy’s poems. Poetry is one of things that I am totally unable to read online. I don’t read ebooks much, almost never, but for poetry I need the physical book. Also, if I may ask, do you speak any languages aside from Serbian and English?
@@tomlabooks3263 I understand you! Honestly, I prefer physical books 90% of the time. Audiobooks are cool too, but not for poetry for some reason. So glad you asked that, as you know I love talking about languages - aside from Serbian and English, I also speak French and Spanish. 😊 So I understand some Italian that you read to us from time to time, since both French and Spanish are Romance languages.
I recall really liking and disliking cantos like this. We don't get as much story or love prose here so much as we get a philosophical conversation. Onbviously both aspects are foundall the way through, but this canto leans much more just toward philosophy and theology which i loveeee so no complaints from me. Also love the Charles Peguy poem.
Wonderful analysis! So deep! I have heard the name of Charles Peguy but never knew his work. I love the learning to swim analogy. I read Paradisio last year for the first time but I know I have to reread it many times.
Justinian as a whirling derivsh who disappears in fantastical fireworks was spectacular! As far as the discussion about "reasons" for the Incarnation I of course went to the aspects of good storytelling--all good stories need a conflict. All of the religions that I've studied seem to have interesting conflicts in their creation myths. Gods coming down to earth as men creates much more drama, and allows us to identify more closely with divinity as a way to learn how to live a good life. Having a god who suffered as a human makes human suffering more bearable for those who suffer. My big qualm is the idea that religion gives acts of war such the destruction of Jerusalem a "reason," and I always find using religion as a reason for violence to be cowardly, unimaginative, and reprehensible.
Hahah I love that whirling Justinian too! And I find your comments very reasonable and based on a Virgil-like approach, with the only exception that the Church today does not condone the destruction of Jerusalem like some christians used to do centuries ago. My own personal qualm is with the modern habit of pretending that we can detach ourselves from our own nature and become “pure reason” all of a sudden, when none of us can.
@@tomlabooks3263 Yes, I've always found that "pure reason" argument tiresome and limiting. I prefer the messiness of mystery, no matter how, or in what format, mystery is embraced.
The questions the kids ask in the class are still being asked today. We have not come far haha 😅 The notion of free will as depicted here is very similar to Aquinas (which I am sure at this point could be a given)-- a kind of compatibilism that gives the ability of choice.
Well now you mustn't be too disappointed Tom but this canto really did not speak to me. It may be the limitations of translation but there was not the beauty of language and image, or recognisable human emotion to sustain me through the theology. The only moment that I could connect with was the spiralling double dance of light like sparks from a fire at the start. I think if one's starting point is incomprehension at the concept of original sin, all the questions and answers in this canto seem like mental contortions. I almost feel sympathy for Dante trying to make sense of all this. However I shall hang on in there as I know Dante will bring me more joy in cantos to come.
Fully understand, Ros. This goes back to why Virgil had to leave… because in Paradiso Dante goes deeper than “making sense”…. but I suspect between Beatrice and Virgil, you’re probably missing Virgil ! : ) Btw, who knows how long it took him to go back. Oh, and thanks for clinging on despite the opposing intellectual winds!
I loved this canto . Dante really brings it home . Thank you . I think many folk like me who are atheist find the idea of Original Sin very difficult but I can't help but think it acts as very useful brake on narcissism and egocentric grandiose behaviours . Of course , sadly , there is room for abuse within such a concept but , hey , I'm not sure that any more recent ideologies , where " sin " is transferred to The Other ( race , nation , class , gender ) deliver anything better ....
Sadly, this is proving to be a very frustrating canticle. I was actually looking forward to the discourses, having enjoyed the ones in Purgatorio, but these feel either dull or abstruse. The only bit to truly captivate me so far was in Canto 4, where we're told that the realm of Paradise, as being presented to Dante, is a metaphor (the mortal mind being incapable of understanding the experience of the saved) - making the canticle a meta-allegory. Dispensing with Virgil and the physicality of setting have otherwise been net negatives. I do, ironically enough, like how often we're warned of the allegorical difficulty of comprehending things here.
I can understand that. Paradiso goes to the heart of catholic theology, and the topics are sometimes very specific. If I may ask, are you a christian reader? That sometimes does make a difference on how Paradiso is perceived.
@@tomlabooks3263not Christian or particularly religious. I'd been a staunch atheist until 1-2 years ago, when I found discovered a respect for the theologians and how, in this day and age, they have only their intellect to buttress their faith against science's ever-growing explanatory power and an ebbing theism in younger generations (to which I belong). Now I'd call myself agnostic. Thank you for your interest! (Also, I've just finished and very much enjoyed canto 8 and its nature v/s nurture theme!)
@@rv.9658 Thanks for sharing that, and your comment is very fair. I would suggest looking into the Latin poet Lucretius, and his “De rerum natura”, where he presented exactly the same arguments that atheists and agnostics present today in 2024, without any difference. Human beings remain the same. We haven’t changed. Our hearts haven’t changed, and religion has to do with our hearts, not with science. Despite some propaganda that states the opposite, Christian faith has never tried to replace science (I’ve written a book about this topic, that’s why it’s really dear to me).
@@tomlabooks3263thank you for that recommendation. I've been going through atheism rebuttals from the Summa Theologica as well. And ofcourse, mind mentioning the title of your book?
@@rv.9658 It’s actually a “graphic novel” (comics) version of an Italian book. The title is “Science and Faith: a graphic novel”. Thanks for your comments.
Malacòth (kingdoms) derives from the Hebrew word malchut (with a guttural CH like in loch and Chanukah). It's also related to the words melech (king), angel (malach), and queen (malka). The Mandelbaum notes say this hymn is based on the Sanctus part of Mass, which originally comes from the Kedushah, one of the prayers in the Amidah (a long standing prayer in the middle of services), "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts. The whole world is filled with your glory."
The deicide charge is really hard to read, since that was the basis of almost 2,000 years of European antisemitism and ultimately culminated in the Shoah, and thus caused of a lot of generational trauma. When I first read the poem at age 24, that was one of the things that most bothered me. While it still is hurtful to read, I'm old enough now to know how to put it in overall context and intent, and I prefer a handful of lines like that to outright hateful things like the Prioress's Tale in The Canterbury Tales (a disgusting blood libel that endorses violent pogroms). I give Dante a lot of credit for being more advanced, sympathetic, and nuanced in his feelings towards women, religious minorities, and gay men than almost everyone else in the Middle Ages. Interfaith friendship and dialogue have also come a long way over the last 70 years.
I agree about the expulsion from a paradise-like world being found in many different cultures around the world. I'm a strong believer in Carl Jung's theory of race memories, manifested in things like archetypes and the collective unconscious. The expulsion from Eden is probably based on a violent extinction event during the Pliocene Epoch. My anthropology professor claimed every volcano on Earth blew up at once and that there are backwards-facing male and female footprints in this ancient hardened ash, looking back at their vanished peaceful world.
Some of the comments about free will and why God can't just create us to be perfect remind me of Monsieur l'Abbé T., a radical priest in Thérèse Philosophe (possibly written by Jean-Baptiste de Boyer). This book hasn't been fully translated into English to my knowledge, but there's a very generous excerpt of about 50 pages in Robert Darnton's The Forbidden Bestsellers of Pre-Revolutionary France. He says things like "But God, who is all-knowing, knew very well that men would not change their behavior," "God would only have to destroy the Devil and we would all be saved," and "Thus, with this foreknowledge, God, in creating us, knew in advance that we would be eternally damned and eternally miserable." Those ideas don't allow any room for free will, and a perfect life without any temptations or suffering would be rather boring.
So much great stuff here, but what hits me most is the strength of the cultural conflict with the Jewish world. I didn’t know about the Prioress’ Tale! I’ll take a look. It’s true that antisemitism finds his roots in the deicide charge. From the little history I know about this matter, I understand there are some other factors to consider (social, economic, political, etc.) that developed over the centuries and that make that tragic side of history very complex. What stands out to me is this great paradox of the Jewish tradition: we could say that the “cultural milieu” of the coming of Christ, and Christ’s language itself, are a direct result of the Jewish genius. And yet, it all went in separate directions. Like you say, the good news is that Interfaith dialogue and respect is getting stronger in these days. It doesn’t sell newspapers, but it’s happening and it’s pretty astounding when we look at the past and compare.
Theology peaks my interest very much, I love it.
Great canto!
Thank you Tom
Thanks to you and Dante we have decided to travel abroad for the first time in many years. Destination? Florence of course!
This is such an excellent decision 😅 !! You’re going to find tons of youtube content to help you organize your trip, but if you have any questions feel free to come back here and ask me (or send me an email, my address is in my channel’s “about” section). One thing is for sure, you’re going to LOVE Florence. And, as you know, Dante is in every corner of the city… what a bittersweet irony!
@@tomlabooks3263 Thank you, my friend! V
Thank you for adding so much to my learning experience of Dante. Now I truly know what I missed when I left Italy as a little boy. I would have studied Dante and other classical Italian writings then. I'm catching up at my advanced state in life. Grazie.
I miss Italy too, my friend! Really appreciate your message 🙏🏻
Thank you so much Tom for unravelling this for us. Enlightening! But I do wonder if this idea that man is above the other creatures has led to indifference to their massive suffering at our hands.
Good point - no doubt that has contributed, and to be fair, this is an ‘idea’ that Homo Sapiens have had since the dawn of time, long before christianity and other religions came about. There are some good signs in our modern world, like for example the successful efforts to save the whales from a hunting industry that had almost wiped them out by the ‘80s, but there is still so much to do on that front.
@@tomlabooks3263 You are totally right on that, thank you for this insight!
I found the discussion of free will interesting and I liked the analogy of teaching someone to swim.
I discovered Charles Peguy, such a great poet.
So profound - I love your analysis as always. Thank you. This is such an important canto. I especially like that you included Nembrini’s thoughts, it added an extra depth. I never thought of incarnation as the foundation of the freedom od men, but then again I never thought about it much and really appreciate all the comments🙏 Also that poem is just wonderful. I saw in another comment that you went ahead and bought Peguy’s book of poetry - looking forward to hearing more poems/a review on it.
Very happy this resonated with you, my friend. I’m so looking forward to reading Peguy’s poems. Poetry is one of things that I am totally unable to read online. I don’t read ebooks much, almost never, but for poetry I need the physical book. Also, if I may ask, do you speak any languages aside from Serbian and English?
@@tomlabooks3263 I understand you! Honestly, I prefer physical books 90% of the time. Audiobooks are cool too, but not for poetry for some reason. So glad you asked that, as you know I love talking about languages - aside from Serbian and English, I also speak French and Spanish. 😊 So I understand some Italian that you read to us from time to time, since both French and Spanish are Romance languages.
@@serenesloth4312 Ah, wonderful! That is such a richness. You’re right, that’s so helpful when it comes to reading Dante.
I recall really liking and disliking cantos like this. We don't get as much story or love prose here so much as we get a philosophical conversation. Onbviously both aspects are foundall the way through, but this canto leans much more just toward philosophy and theology which i loveeee so no complaints from me. Also love the Charles Peguy poem.
Charles Peguy is a recent find for me and his work is…. stunning!
Wonderful analysis! So deep! I have heard the name of Charles Peguy but never knew his work. I love the learning to swim analogy. I read Paradisio last year for the first time but I know I have to reread it many times.
Thank you, Faith - after finding that poem, I immediately ordered his book of poetry “The mystery of the innocent saints”.
Justinian as a whirling derivsh who disappears in fantastical fireworks was spectacular! As far as the discussion about "reasons" for the Incarnation I of course went to the aspects of good storytelling--all good stories need a conflict. All of the religions that I've studied seem to have interesting conflicts in their creation myths. Gods coming down to earth as men creates much more drama, and allows us to identify more closely with divinity as a way to learn how to live a good life. Having a god who suffered as a human makes human suffering more bearable for those who suffer. My big qualm is the idea that religion gives acts of war such the destruction of Jerusalem a "reason," and I always find using religion as a reason for violence to be cowardly, unimaginative, and reprehensible.
Hahah I love that whirling Justinian too!
And I find your comments very reasonable and based on a Virgil-like approach, with the only exception that the Church today does not condone the destruction of Jerusalem like some christians used to do centuries ago.
My own personal qualm is with the modern habit of pretending that we can detach ourselves from our own nature and become “pure reason” all of a sudden, when none of us can.
@@tomlabooks3263 Yes, I've always found that "pure reason" argument tiresome and limiting. I prefer the messiness of mystery, no matter how, or in what format, mystery is embraced.
The questions the kids ask in the class are still being asked today. We have not come far haha 😅 The notion of free will as depicted here is very similar to Aquinas (which I am sure at this point could be a given)-- a kind of compatibilism that gives the ability of choice.
It’s practically “versified Aquinas” ! 😅
@@tomlabooks3263 Hahaha, well put!
Well now you mustn't be too disappointed Tom but this canto really did not speak to me. It may be the limitations of translation but there was not the beauty of language and image, or recognisable human emotion to sustain me through the theology. The only moment that I could connect with was the spiralling double dance of light like sparks from a fire at the start. I think if one's starting point is incomprehension at the concept of original sin, all the questions and answers in this canto seem like mental contortions. I almost feel sympathy for Dante trying to make sense of all this. However I shall hang on in there as I know Dante will bring me more joy in cantos to come.
Fully understand, Ros. This goes back to why Virgil had to leave… because in Paradiso Dante goes deeper than “making sense”…. but I suspect between Beatrice and Virgil, you’re probably missing Virgil ! : ) Btw, who knows how long it took him to go back. Oh, and thanks for clinging on despite the opposing intellectual winds!
@@tomlabooks3263 you're right I do miss Virgil. I hope he found a short cut. But seriously I am still interested even when it doesn't sparkle for me.
I loved this canto . Dante really brings it home . Thank you . I think many folk like me who are atheist find the idea of Original Sin very difficult but I can't help but think it acts as very useful brake on narcissism and egocentric grandiose behaviours . Of course , sadly , there is room for abuse within such a concept but , hey , I'm not sure that any more recent ideologies , where " sin " is transferred to The Other ( race , nation , class , gender ) deliver anything better ....
Thanks Hester for your comment, as insightful as always 🙏🏻 Hope you have a good week.
Sadly, this is proving to be a very frustrating canticle. I was actually looking forward to the discourses, having enjoyed the ones in Purgatorio, but these feel either dull or abstruse. The only bit to truly captivate me so far was in Canto 4, where we're told that the realm of Paradise, as being presented to Dante, is a metaphor (the mortal mind being incapable of understanding the experience of the saved) - making the canticle a meta-allegory.
Dispensing with Virgil and the physicality of setting have otherwise been net negatives.
I do, ironically enough, like how often we're warned of the allegorical difficulty of comprehending things here.
I can understand that. Paradiso goes to the heart of catholic theology, and the topics are sometimes very specific. If I may ask, are you a christian reader? That sometimes does make a difference on how Paradiso is perceived.
@@tomlabooks3263not Christian or particularly religious. I'd been a staunch atheist until 1-2 years ago, when I found discovered a respect for the theologians and how, in this day and age, they have only their intellect to buttress their faith against science's ever-growing explanatory power and an ebbing theism in younger generations (to which I belong). Now I'd call myself agnostic. Thank you for your interest!
(Also, I've just finished and very much enjoyed canto 8 and its nature v/s nurture theme!)
@@rv.9658 Thanks for sharing that, and your comment is very fair. I would suggest looking into the Latin poet Lucretius, and his “De rerum natura”, where he presented exactly the same arguments that atheists and agnostics present today in 2024, without any difference. Human beings remain the same. We haven’t changed. Our hearts haven’t changed, and religion has to do with our hearts, not with science. Despite some propaganda that states the opposite, Christian faith has never tried to replace science (I’ve written a book about this topic, that’s why it’s really dear to me).
@@tomlabooks3263thank you for that recommendation. I've been going through atheism rebuttals from the Summa Theologica as well.
And ofcourse, mind mentioning the title of your book?
@@rv.9658 It’s actually a “graphic novel” (comics) version of an Italian book. The title is “Science and Faith: a graphic novel”. Thanks for your comments.
so rich.
Incredibly dense, this one!