Aside from ribbon mics, there is not that much difference between mics. At least nothing that cannot be recovered with a little of equalization. The main conclusion is that differences are totally unrelated to the price! Ribbons: I've heard countless engineers speaking about the Royer R121 as the Holy Grail of mics. I've never tested one, but frankly in this comparison this is the one that disappointed me the most, frankly in my ear it's one of the worst of the comparison.
@@valsania Hello. There is some particularly piercing high frequencies in some of the cheaper small condenser microphones which I don’t like. The Royer is an incredible microphone - not something I would use as an overhead much but on trumpet, saxophone or electric guitar it is incredible. Very smooth like all ribbons but with more clarity in the top end which lends itself well to some applications. The one that surprised me is the Beyerdynamic M160 - I thought it had a really balanced sound and a focus which I thought would be really useful for some records.
Thanks for watching. When recording rock drums - I use the AEA in front of the kit for a close room mic. For jazz I use the aea as my overhead and tend to get my core drum sound there, only mixing the close mics it very slightly.
@@davespeakmanmusic Agree regarding the Beyerdynamic M160. Love them! I usually like the AEA R88 as well, but in this demo I think there was some weird comb filtering/cancellation going on from internal reflections within the housing that were especially noticeable on one of the crash cymbal hits...kind of "phasey" even though you're just using the single ribbon. IDK If you have the opportunity, get your hands on a pair of Mesanovic model 2 ribbon mics. The AEA Nuovo N8 and Samar Audio VL-37/VL-37A are nice ribbons as well. Much more high end detail than the Coles, but still excellent low end! I would also highly recommend the Audio-Technica AT5045 as well. Amazing on just about any acoustic source and excellent drum O/H's.
Ironically - the crash is quite expensive. It is a very bright crash from what I remember - ideal for rock. I tend to prefer darker cymbals, but that’s probably just because they’re easier to record.
I think there was something seriously wrong with the recording. Every one of these sounded absolutely horrific. I know these mics do not sound like this.
Man. Between the cymbals themselves, and way this drummer just crushes them every hit… it isn’t making the mic’s (or the engineers job easy)… all of these mics would sound better with a crash swap out and a 5 second chat about how the cymbals/drums will sound larger and more powerful if you play a bit lighter on those crashes. But whatever. Such is life in the engineer’s chair. Thanks for a great and useful video.
Totally… this guy is playing like this is a live show. Hasn’t quite learned that you have to play differently in a studio setting if you want your drums to sound good. My favorite drum sound is a mono overhead and a drummer who knows how to balance the kit. The worse the the drummer, the more mics have to go up _)
_""Animal.....must....smash!"_ Reason #281 why it may make sense to get a rhythm machine: I've probably lost a few kHz off the top if my hearing over the years, no thanks to heavy-handed drummers.
The U87 is the clear winner for the condensers -- R88, wow,...amazing. The MK-012's really stood out to me too, and the price is amazing. I have a pair of those - love em. Great shootout.
The low end of that R88 is amazing. I would love to see some good shootouts between the R88 and N8 set up in a blumlein(or whatever gets closest to how the R88 is) Isnt the R88 a Blumlein going on inside?
@@davespeakmanmusic Oh amazing. So cool that you can use just one side/ch of it. I never knew you could do that. I was looking at the N8's , but opted for the Coles 4038's first. Im def going to grab the N8's or the R88 at some point though!
Yes the cable that comes with the R88 breaks the output out to both channels so you just use two. The sound has a little more fidelity than a pair or 4038s, there is definitely justification in having both. 😀
The best and most expensive mics are for nothing if your sound sucks, if you suck on drums. That´s what most people underrate. Thats why it´s important to work on the drumssound, the balance between the cymbals and drums and of course the tuning etc. Helpful shootout, though!
This is a really helpful video. Thank you! The 4038 and R88 sound so thick. I like the M60s as an all-rounder, too, which I thought tamed the cymbals and also had punchy toms.
Thanks for watching, Tom. The ribbons definitely all add a character which is pleasing in nearly all situations. I really like the directionality of the Beyer 160 too. 😀
Line Audio have the CM4 now, replacing the CM3. I bought some recently from jam, in Sweden. They're really good. I really like them as a mid-way between the SDCs I like (KM184, then Oktava which had a nice vintage character, albeit some 'graininess' apparent in crash). My favourite was the cheaper of the ribbons, the versatile Beyerdynamic M160 - they kept clarity and their great on guitar amp too. Whereas the Royer sounds fantastic on driven cab, but I don't love it as much on overhead. I disliked the U87 & 414, a U47-type would be better. The Coles sounded dark, as is, but I'd imagine with EQ would sound great. AEA was really good too. Now there's the Soyuz 013, which sound awesome as the SDC option.
yup.. just get a decent mic.. and it really does not matter much which you pic and no one will know. Maybe except for the Josephson which is noticeably different. But other than that. Get a better drummer that knows how to balance himself , and then just the cheapest mic here. The AT Pro37 is more than fine.
That EV was one of my favorites, at least for a hard hitting drummer such as this. The AEA was a standout, M160 as well. U87 was best of the condensers, and 414. Telefunken M60 was pretty decent. All the mics sounded best during the stick twirling section.
Wow some of these comments lol I guess my ears are broken and I have awful taste in rock drummers. Fantastic playing and killer shootout. Mission accomplished and well done video. Thank you for your time putting this together and sharing. M160 is such a great microphone. Like a cross between a U87 and an R88.
Great comparison. Thanks for posting! So many really good mics. I do like the low body on the R88. Very punchy sound to it. The Oktava MK-102 is nice. I'm thinking about investing in a set of those - one of the larger sets with a wider choice of capsules. Great set of mics/capsules to have, or so I've heard.
Thanks! Yes, the Oktavas are amazing mics. I have a stereo pair with cardioid and omni capsules, incredibly detailed. They’d be a good investment for sure. :-)
Yes, they also take some of the harsh overtones from being directly above the cymbals and only capture sound from above and below the microphone which helps to keep comb filtering to a minimum. 😀
@@HunterAnton great, I’ll get in it. I’ve just made a couple of videos about recording a jazz trio that you might be interested in. Hope to see you soon buddy.
Hmmm i have a pair of of the 635a for sale and im using some peavey pm480 for overheads im kinda back steping on saling the 635 what are your thoughts about this ev vintage mics? Am i crazy?
I’ve not had loads of experience with the 635a - I think they’re a good “character” mic. I suppose it depends if you think you’ll use the mics and if you need the money.
Awesome collection and video, thanks! Listening on Audio-Technica ATH-M70x monitor headphones. The most useful and interesting ones were the Neumann U87 (warm, full, detailed), Neumann KM184 (realistic, smooth, very detailed), Oktava MK-012 (realistic but not as smooth and less detailed, some harshness), Coles 4038 (full, punchy), and AEA R88 (largest space, deep and powerful, very interesting character). The least useful seem to be the Josephson C42 (too bright, hi-fi), Audio-Technica Pro 37 (dull, ill), Electro-Voice 653A (dull, restrained). What do you think?
I tend to use the Coles most often, especially in a room with more acoustic treatment. I really like the precision of the 184s and can get a great rock sound with 414s. I use the R88 in front of the kit, it adds a lot of lower mids when you get the phase right. I really like tight snares so I use baffles close to the kit for close mics with less early reflections whilst letting the sound spill out to the room mics for ambience.
Km184, Oktava and the real value for the money I like the sound of the Audio Technica pro 37. The EV 635A is such a dog. Remember using those in radio club in the early 80s in high school But if it is all ya got....
Yea the Oktavas are amazing value for money. The 184s add a lovely harmonic distortion which I find really useful on acoustic guitars, but they’re a lot more money. I’ve been using Coles 4038s as overheads on the last few drum recordings I’ve done and have been really pleased with the results. There is another video in my channel comparing stereo overheads if you’re interested...
@@davespeakmanmusic thanks, will check out. Question on the harmonic distortion. I have always thought that Steve Gadd's hi hats on Aja by Steely Dan sound like they are over driving or distorting. They used 184s slot back in the day. Not sure about that l.p. listen and let me what you think. On to your stereo compare!
@@davespeakmanmusicthey are stupidly different, aren't they. The neumann is i dunno - not bright, exactly. But definitely big lovely upper mids or something. The r88 is velvety lower mids. And yet both are just as usable. If i had the money though, and as much as love 87s, i think i might be tempted by an r88 and just use it on everything lol.
90% of a good drum sounds comes in descending order from playing technique (VOLUME!!!, stick rebound control), tuning of drums, the drums itself and last but not least the chosen drum heads. I am very sorry but recording clipping cymbals (played way too loud) with high end recording equipment is like taking photos of a car accident with a Hasselblad. Could you please re-issue this video with drums played where you like the sound of it just standing next to it without ear plugs inside?
There is nuance in both playing quiet and loud. There are certain sounds that can’t be obtained by tickling the drums. I also have a lot of respect for pro level drummers who can play hard and loud night after night - that requires great technique. I have done videos on recording jazz trios - definitely a different way of recording. The drums are so versatile, just because it’s not how you play doesn’t mean you have the right to be dismissive of it. There’s no question that Tom is an excellent drummer - he certainly has plenty of work.
Also I would say that the sound comes initially from the player, followed by the shells/cymbals, followed by the heads, followed by the room, followed by the preamp and finally the microphone type. The individual brand/model of mic makes some difference - it isn’t that important! The video is academic really. We have all these mics, so we compared them for ourselves and in the process also put the video up for anyone who is geeky enough (like we are) to care. 😀
@@davespeakmanmusic To be more precise: There is a sweet spot / range of volume which a drum / cymbal likes. Below this it is tickling and you will record more noise than the sound of the instrument because it isn't able to oscillate properly. But if you hit drums / cymbals too hard they are just mechanically clipping and not oscillating properly again. Understanding playing drums as a delta-distribution (dirac) it is quite obvious that choosing too high amplitudes will increase the impact of the dampening (air movement, material dampening) and lower the natural distribution with overtones and so on. I could have make it a lot easier by just writing 2 words: Simon Phillips :)
I fully appreciate and understand your comment! There is a different sound when the drum/cymbal is hit harder than what you view as optimal. I think we agree, actually. 😀
@@davespeakmanmusic room, mics, preamp is the 10% remaining in my experience. For sure it could be a lot more if someone is recording in a bathroom with crap equipement. But assuming that you have a good room acoustics with controlled delay it is just 10% left. You totally skipped the "drum tuning". If you have a great drumming technique this is the 2nd most important part of the story. Great drumming technique means: If you want to have an open sounding drumkit take care that sticks and beaters never dig into the head / cymbal but just get "thrown" on it and the instrument reflects it without beeing muffled. This is most obviously the case for many drummers resting on the bass drum head instead of just hitting it. But even it you look at the movement stick to snare head with a high speed cam you will see that a lot of drummers muffle the sound by avoiding the first oscillations of the drum after they hit it.
@@davespeakmanmusic tlm67 modified with max kircher/ioaudio kit. Also put it in a genuine neumann transformer and original telefunken ef86 tube. It is essentially no different than an original u67 except the age.
I’ve never used them as overheads. I would imagine they work well. The presence peak might be a bit shrill with bright cymbals but I’m sure it will be easy enough to get a great recording with them.
Well done! I've been comparing the 4038, m160, and C414 for months now... All of the ribbons in this vid have such a nice punchy low end the AEA and 4038 in particular... of the condensers The C414 sounded the flattest to me... but I don't have a sub, does the 414 capture the low end in a pleasing way or do you find yourself using hpf with it?
Hey Matt. I don't usually high pass overheads, I just try to make sure all my microphones are in phase when I record. The bottom end isn't as punchy in the condenser microphones - but sometimes that is what is best for the sound. I tend to find myself using 4038s if I want a big spaced pair rock sound, R88 for a balanced sound with a little more room sound and 184s for a natural spaced pair. I always double mic the kick and snare for everything. I have a video coming in the next couple of weeks looking at stereo pairs for overheads - with and without close mics...
Coming back to this again, there is a *HUGE* mismatch in the levels of the tracks causing a bias in the perceived sound. I find myself having to adjust the volume manually to match the tracks which defeats the purpose of an A/B comparison. If you could make another video with the same mics (or more, including an AKG C451b), an actual disciplined drummer, and level match the tracks, that would make this review worthwhile. Thank you for your time and effort.
There are many things I’d do differently if I had time to do this video again. Both studios are so busy that revisiting this any time soon is unlikely! Which microphones specifically are you looking at? If I were buying SDCs it would be the 184s, LDCs 414s followed by 87s and for ribbons (as overheads) the Coles. The m160, Royer and R88 are all great additions to the locker - but I’d rarely use them as overheads. If I can offer any help, please ask.
Hi Dave! Thanks for the video. I have a doubt. Im a looper-one-man-band Artist and I have bought the rode ntg2 because I had a dynamic mic (shure sm58 beta) but there is a lot of movements to adapt de mic to te different instruments that I use (percussion, guitar, flutes, singing bowls, voice...). I thougt that will be great to have a directional shotgun mic and bring the different instruments to the same área. But I have a problem now, the mic takes too much ambient noise and the feedback noise (excuse my english) appears soon on live performance. Do you know about some mic apropiate for my needs?
Thanks for this very helpful video. I have a question : is the Oktava an upgrade to the pg 181 shure? I'd like to improve my sound by recording with a great couple of overhead. Thanks for your kindly help
You might get better results with upgrading your preamps first. The Oktavas are great mics tho. I have much more expensive mics, but still use the oktavas for stuff all the time. :-)
Yes mate, they’re amazing microphones - you can get matched pairs with different capsules at an amazing price. I sometimes use them on hihat or acoustic guitar as it has amazing clarity, I also use them with an omnidirectional capsule as room mics. Get some!!!
What are your thoughts on those Josephsons? Anything else youve found you really like them on? Or, did they not stick around? Ive come close to buying a pair a couple times.
Spastic is light hearted. It not like I said he’s a sloppy cymbal player or over an eccentric over dramatic attention seeking musician in front of a camera. But thanks for pulling those comments out of me. I’m sure he’s a nice guy. His timing is very good. Sorry for chiming in at all.
Spastic is light hearted. It not like I said he’s a sloppy cymbal player or over an eccentric over dramatic attention seeking musician in front of a camera. But thanks for pulling those comments out of me. I’m sure he’s a nice guy. His timing is very good. Sorry for chiming in at all.
@@Gretsch0997 I think OP's reply had more to do with the use of the word "spastic" than criticism of the drummer's style. It's a slur originally relating to muscle spasms/cerebral palsy, similar to although maybe not as widely known about as using the "R" word
Really great shootout,,, so wow,, the Coles 4038 and AEA R88 sure bring the thunder,,, really big low end information for an enormous drum sound,,,, but is that really the information we want from overheads?? I would say yes, but only if you have two more overhead mics specifically picking up focused high crisp information such as cymbals since the kick and other drums already will have direct mics,,, but if i could only afford one set of overheads, i would prefer something that will focus on cymbals in a pleasing way. The Oktava was a good compromise of both i think.
This is how I see it also. It really depends what part of the puzzle the overheads are playing. You can’t go wrong with the Oktavas - I use mine every week.
i had the octava too, and i really did not get warm with them...to my ear they have something harsh in the highs, like a weird boost in certain frequencies. I use the Coles the most go the time, and yes they could be a trick any and a bit too much as well, depend on what you are recording and how you EQ them...most of the time i can dial in what i am searching for, sometimes they are a bit to thick and soft in the transients, but they have a lovely character. Have the KM184 as well, but i think they have to go, very nice resolution and depth but a bit to shiny in my ears. Awaiting my AKG C414 the next days and i am very excited what. kind of color they bring in 🙂
I have the audio techinca pro 37's and I can confidently say that they are not the finest thing for overheads in my application. I play fairly bright cymbals, but not too bright -There is an insane high end "slash' with these microphones that I just can't deal with. Unique sounding mic, but quite colored. I actually like colored mics, but again, these are not the greatest overheads, imo. I have been looking to the Octava mk 012's as everyone says they're the best, but I'm just not compelled towards them for some reason... Anybody here using the Lewitt's offerings??
The 012s are great. The Neumann km184s are a little richer sounding - but cost a lot more. I did a session yesterday with a pair of 414s and remembered what I loved about that sound too.
@@davespeakmanmusic I've never used the 414's myself, but I'm sure they're fantastic. Do you fancy LDC's or SDC's on overheads? I've have used both with varying results... I'm actually a fan of sort of "bog standard" sounds, so I often don't mind a cheaper microphone... Just recently heard a video of a guy who did SM57's on overheads and I could find no fault in them! Ha!
For overheads, I tend to use a pair of ribbon mics. I use condensers for more detail; LDCs if I want it to sound bigger, SDCs if I want it to sound accurate. I often use a pair of Coles 4038s as overheads and then spot mic the hihat and ride with SDCs…
Which are your favourites? Let me know below. There’s another video coming next week on stereo overheads...
Aside from ribbon mics, there is not that much difference between mics. At least nothing that cannot be recovered with a little of equalization.
The main conclusion is that differences are totally unrelated to the price!
Ribbons: I've heard countless engineers speaking about the Royer R121 as the Holy Grail of mics. I've never tested one, but frankly in this comparison this is the one that disappointed me the most, frankly in my ear it's one of the worst of the comparison.
@@valsania Hello. There is some particularly piercing high frequencies in some of the cheaper small condenser microphones which I don’t like. The Royer is an incredible microphone - not something I would use as an overhead much but on trumpet, saxophone or electric guitar it is incredible. Very smooth like all ribbons but with more clarity in the top end which lends itself well to some applications. The one that surprised me is the Beyerdynamic M160 - I thought it had a really balanced sound and a focus which I thought would be really useful for some records.
I thought the Neumann U87 sounded overall the best, followed by the Royer and Beyerdynamic. The AEA sounds like an incredible room mic.
Thanks for watching. When recording rock drums - I use the AEA in front of the kit for a close room mic. For jazz I use the aea as my overhead and tend to get my core drum sound there, only mixing the close mics it very slightly.
@@davespeakmanmusic
Agree regarding the Beyerdynamic M160. Love them!
I usually like the AEA R88 as well, but in this demo I think there was some weird comb filtering/cancellation going on from internal reflections within the housing that were especially noticeable on one of the crash cymbal hits...kind of "phasey" even though you're just using the single ribbon. IDK
If you have the opportunity, get your hands on a pair of Mesanovic model 2 ribbon mics. The AEA Nuovo N8 and Samar Audio VL-37/VL-37A are nice ribbons as well. Much more high end detail than the Coles, but still excellent low end!
I would also highly recommend the Audio-Technica AT5045 as well. Amazing on just about any acoustic source and excellent drum O/H's.
That crash is quite cheap sounding, I'd love if it he hadn't played it.
Ironically - the crash is quite expensive. It is a very bright crash from what I remember - ideal for rock. I tend to prefer darker cymbals, but that’s probably just because they’re easier to record.
Coles and AEA, no contest
Both great mics but sometimes a cardiod mic is what’s needed. I’ve been using km184s on jazz sessions.
I think there was something seriously wrong with the recording. Every one of these sounded absolutely horrific. I know these mics do not sound like this.
Thanks for watching!
I don't like the sound of the cymbal set, but the R88 it's absolutely amazing (i love AEA mics...the n22 its one of my favourite drum ovehead mics)
Thanks for watching
Man. Between the cymbals themselves, and way this drummer just crushes them every hit… it isn’t making the mic’s (or the engineers job easy)… all of these mics would sound better with a crash swap out and a 5 second chat about how the cymbals/drums will sound larger and more powerful if you play a bit lighter on those crashes.
But whatever. Such is life in the engineer’s chair.
Thanks for a great and useful video.
Totally… this guy is playing like this is a live show. Hasn’t quite learned that you have to play differently in a studio setting if you want your drums to sound good. My favorite drum sound is a mono overhead and a drummer who knows how to balance the kit. The worse the the drummer, the more mics have to go up _)
First thing I noticed in the intro video before the sound was even on was just how much full arm the drummer was throwing into everything
Also the cymbal selection definitely isn't to my ears liking either as a drummer
_""Animal.....must....smash!"_
Reason #281 why it may make sense to get a rhythm machine: I've probably lost a few kHz off the top if my hearing over the years, no thanks to heavy-handed drummers.
Cymbals were definitely harmed in the making of this video
Also that dang r88 is a beast!
The R88 is amazing!!!
Those crashes are ear piercing 90% of those mixed. Need ribbons for this set up
The cymbals might be appropriate for some music. If not, I’d change the cymbals before I changed the mic. 😀
The test was done with those cymbals. In the test you are changing the mics not cymbals.
The U87 is the clear winner for the condensers -- R88, wow,...amazing. The MK-012's really stood out to me too, and the price is amazing. I have a pair of those - love em. Great shootout.
My thoughts exactly. U87, MK-012, KM 184.
Austrian Audio cc8 vs km184's... cc8's 4 me...
@leejwa6839 nice mics, yes.
I'm sure I'm not the first to have pointed out that it's actually spelled 'cardioid.' :-)
Thank you. 😁
The low end of that R88 is amazing. I would love to see some good shootouts between the R88 and N8 set up in a blumlein(or whatever gets closest to how the R88 is) Isnt the R88 a Blumlein going on inside?
Yes, it’s blumlein. Absolutely incredible mic, I sometimes just use one side of it too. One of the best investments I’ve made.
@@davespeakmanmusic Oh amazing. So cool that you can use just one side/ch of it. I never knew you could do that. I was looking at the N8's , but opted for the Coles 4038's first. Im def going to grab the N8's or the R88 at some point though!
Yes the cable that comes with the R88 breaks the output out to both channels so you just use two. The sound has a little more fidelity than a pair or 4038s, there is definitely justification in having both. 😀
@@underpressureman
If you're looking at the AEA Nuovo N8's, check out the Mesanovic model 2 first! ;-)
The best and most expensive mics are for nothing if your sound sucks, if you suck on drums. That´s what most people underrate. Thats why it´s important to work on the drumssound, the balance between the cymbals and drums and of course the tuning etc. Helpful shootout, though!
Glad you found the video useful
This is a really helpful video. Thank you! The 4038 and R88 sound so thick. I like the M60s as an all-rounder, too, which I thought tamed the cymbals and also had punchy toms.
Thanks for watching, Tom. The ribbons definitely all add a character which is pleasing in nearly all situations. I really like the directionality of the Beyer 160 too. 😀
Smoke a little before playing. That’ll help pull back some. Lort!!
Line Audio have the CM4 now, replacing the CM3. I bought some recently from jam, in Sweden. They're really good. I really like them as a mid-way between the SDCs I like (KM184, then Oktava which had a nice vintage character, albeit some 'graininess' apparent in crash). My favourite was the cheaper of the ribbons, the versatile Beyerdynamic M160 - they kept clarity and their great on guitar amp too. Whereas the Royer sounds fantastic on driven cab, but I don't love it as much on overhead. I disliked the U87 & 414, a U47-type would be better. The Coles sounded dark, as is, but I'd imagine with EQ would sound great. AEA was really good too. Now there's the Soyuz 013, which sound awesome as the SDC option.
yup.. just get a decent mic.. and it really does not matter much which you pic and no one will know. Maybe except for the Josephson which is noticeably different. But other than that. Get a better drummer that knows how to balance himself , and then just the cheapest mic here. The AT Pro37 is more than fine.
That EV was one of my favorites, at least for a hard hitting drummer such as this. The AEA was a standout, M160 as well. U87 was best of the condensers, and 414. Telefunken M60 was pretty decent. All the mics sounded best during the stick twirling section.
Thanks for watching, Gordon! Yea, most of the mics produce perfectly usable recordings. Especially during the stick twirl!
Sounds like Iron Maiden - The Trooper ;-)
Wow some of these comments lol I guess my ears are broken and I have awful taste in rock drummers. Fantastic playing and killer shootout. Mission accomplished and well done video. Thank you for your time putting this together and sharing. M160 is such a great microphone. Like a cross between a U87 and an R88.
Thanks for watching!
AEA R88 or Coles 4038 for my ears
They’re my go to’s. I’ve been using the r88 in front of the kit with the Coles as overheads recently. Works perfectly.
Great comparison. Thanks for posting! So many really good mics. I do like the low body on the R88. Very punchy sound to it. The Oktava MK-102 is nice. I'm thinking about investing in a set of those - one of the larger sets with a wider choice of capsules. Great set of mics/capsules to have, or so I've heard.
Thanks! Yes, the Oktavas are amazing mics. I have a stereo pair with cardioid and omni capsules, incredibly detailed. They’d be a good investment for sure. :-)
Thank you so much for the shootout. Please consider level matching the mics, though.
Thanks for watching 😀
Glad to have helped out! Very interesting to hear the comparison!
Thanks so much matey. Did the stereo one today - you’re so consistent between takes. Really impressive.
Stand out for me was the pair of Coles.
They’re my go-to’s. Love them
@@davespeakmanmusic Yeah for me they just make the overheads more useable for the whole kit, not just cymbals. Thanks for taking the time. Cheers.
Yes, they also take some of the harsh overtones from being directly above the cymbals and only capture sound from above and below the microphone which helps to keep comb filtering to a minimum. 😀
Great video. Could only be improved by using those mics on a sousaphone rather than drums!
Haha. I’m up for it if you are?!
@@davespeakmanmusic I would watch this.
@@HunterAnton great, I’ll get in it. I’ve just made a couple of videos about recording a jazz trio that you might be interested in. Hope to see you soon buddy.
The best mic comparasion i've ever seen! Greetings from Mexico!
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching. 😀
Hmmm i have a pair of of the 635a for sale and im using some peavey pm480 for overheads im kinda back steping on saling the 635 what are your thoughts about this ev vintage mics? Am i crazy?
I’ve not had loads of experience with the 635a - I think they’re a good “character” mic. I suppose it depends if you think you’ll use the mics and if you need the money.
Josephson for a bright but well balanced smooth sound. AEA if you Need a very big sound. Loved Coles and beyer m160
Thanks for your input
Line Audio C3 is the best balance between all the worlds, great transitions and control of
cymbals, the coles dishes for rooms are fantastic.....
I can’t argue with that! Thanks for watching. I have another overhead comparison video coming next week…
Man... that R88... what a beefy room sound 💥💥 instant 70’s mojo. My next OH upgrade will definetly be a ribbon mic pair.
Lots of fun to be had with a pair of nice ribbon mics. Enjoy.
Awesome collection and video, thanks! Listening on Audio-Technica ATH-M70x monitor headphones. The most useful and interesting ones were the Neumann U87 (warm, full, detailed), Neumann KM184 (realistic, smooth, very detailed), Oktava MK-012 (realistic but not as smooth and less detailed, some harshness), Coles 4038 (full, punchy), and AEA R88 (largest space, deep and powerful, very interesting character). The least useful seem to be the Josephson C42 (too bright, hi-fi), Audio-Technica Pro 37 (dull, ill), Electro-Voice 653A (dull, restrained). What do you think?
I tend to use the Coles most often, especially in a room with more acoustic treatment. I really like the precision of the 184s and can get a great rock sound with 414s. I use the R88 in front of the kit, it adds a lot of lower mids when you get the phase right. I really like tight snares so I use baffles close to the kit for close mics with less early reflections whilst letting the sound spill out to the room mics for ambience.
I think that beyer m160 Is One of the most musical sounding and versatile mics ever made. Especially at this price point
Phenomenal mic
Thx
I’m also a Speakman working in music. Great video, appreciate the thoroughness!
Great! Thanks 😊
Sweet.
Thanks for watching 😀
this was great thank you! I'm curious what preamps did you use?
Glad you enjoyed it. The preamps are on the SSL AWS 948 at Edge Studios. They’re fairly uncoloured with good headroom.
Km184, Oktava and the real value for the money I like the sound of the Audio Technica pro 37. The EV 635A is such a dog. Remember using those in radio club in the early 80s in high school
But if it is all ya got....
Yea the Oktavas are amazing value for money. The 184s add a lovely harmonic distortion which I find really useful on acoustic guitars, but they’re a lot more money. I’ve been using Coles 4038s as overheads on the last few drum recordings I’ve done and have been really pleased with the results. There is another video in my channel comparing stereo overheads if you’re interested...
@@davespeakmanmusic thanks, will check out. Question on the harmonic distortion. I have always thought that Steve Gadd's hi hats on Aja by Steely Dan sound like they are over driving or distorting. They used 184s slot back in the day. Not sure about that l.p. listen and let me what you think. On to your stereo compare!
I’ll have a listen, 184s and km84s definitely impart something on the sound 😀
m160 kills. Best mic by far.
Definitely one of my favourites 😄
u87 or r88
Great choices! Wildly different - you need both!
@@davespeakmanmusicthey are stupidly different, aren't they. The neumann is i dunno - not bright, exactly. But definitely big lovely upper mids or something. The r88 is velvety lower mids. And yet both are just as usable. If i had the money though, and as much as love 87s, i think i might be tempted by an r88 and just use it on everything lol.
@Unfunny_Username_389 they both get used most days at my studio. Amazing stuff.
This was amazing! My favorite is M60, I also liked M160, EV635 and AEA impressed me a lot, but for its overall sound not specific hi end.
Glad you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.
u87. money talks.
Thanks for watching. Is there anything you’d like to see a video about?
90% of a good drum sounds comes in descending order from playing technique (VOLUME!!!, stick rebound control), tuning of drums, the drums itself and last but not least the chosen drum heads.
I am very sorry but recording clipping cymbals (played way too loud) with high end recording equipment is like taking photos of a car accident with a Hasselblad.
Could you please re-issue this video with drums played where you like the sound of it just standing next to it without ear plugs inside?
There is nuance in both playing quiet and loud. There are certain sounds that can’t be obtained by tickling the drums. I also have a lot of respect for pro level drummers who can play hard and loud night after night - that requires great technique. I have done videos on recording jazz trios - definitely a different way of recording. The drums are so versatile, just because it’s not how you play doesn’t mean you have the right to be dismissive of it. There’s no question that Tom is an excellent drummer - he certainly has plenty of work.
Also I would say that the sound comes initially from the player, followed by the shells/cymbals, followed by the heads, followed by the room, followed by the preamp and finally the microphone type. The individual brand/model of mic makes some difference - it isn’t that important! The video is academic really. We have all these mics, so we compared them for ourselves and in the process also put the video up for anyone who is geeky enough (like we are) to care. 😀
@@davespeakmanmusic To be more precise: There is a sweet spot / range of volume which a drum / cymbal likes. Below this it is tickling and you will record more noise than the sound of the instrument because it isn't able to oscillate properly. But if you hit drums / cymbals too hard they are just mechanically clipping and not oscillating properly again. Understanding playing drums as a delta-distribution (dirac) it is quite obvious that choosing too high amplitudes will increase the impact of the dampening (air movement, material dampening) and lower the natural distribution with overtones and so on.
I could have make it a lot easier by just writing 2 words: Simon Phillips :)
I fully appreciate and understand your comment! There is a different sound when the drum/cymbal is hit harder than what you view as optimal. I think we agree, actually. 😀
@@davespeakmanmusic room, mics, preamp is the 10% remaining in my experience. For sure it could be a lot more if someone is recording in a bathroom with crap equipement. But assuming that you have a good room acoustics with controlled delay it is just 10% left.
You totally skipped the "drum tuning". If you have a great drumming technique this is the 2nd most important part of the story.
Great drumming technique means: If you want to have an open sounding drumkit take care that sticks and beaters never dig into the head / cymbal but just get "thrown" on it and the instrument reflects it without beeing muffled. This is most obviously the case for many drummers resting on the bass drum head instead of just hitting it. But even it you look at the movement stick to snare head with a high speed cam you will see that a lot of drummers muffle the sound by avoiding the first oscillations of the drum after they hit it.
Now I know why U87 is that expensive
The U87 is great! Not my favourite mic for anything really, but also works really well on pretty much anything!
Not a single large diaphragm tube mic in the test which are my favorite.
Which are your favourites, Alex?
I have a u67 copy and c12 copy which are my favs. From only mics in this shootout Id have to pick 87.
Aea 88 and m160 I also like
@@admtalent8022 nice. What make are your 67 clones? Did you build them?
@@davespeakmanmusic tlm67 modified with max kircher/ioaudio kit. Also put it in a genuine neumann transformer and original telefunken ef86 tube. It is essentially no different than an original u67 except the age.
It is the funny face guy
Get practisin' Cal
Who is cal
😳
What thoughts about the C414 XlL II Version?
I’ve never used them as overheads. I would imagine they work well. The presence peak might be a bit shrill with bright cymbals but I’m sure it will be easy enough to get a great recording with them.
Why didn't yall include the sm81 in here?
Because we don’t have one!!!
Well done! I've been comparing the 4038, m160, and C414 for months now... All of the ribbons in this vid have such a nice punchy low end the AEA and 4038 in particular... of the condensers The C414 sounded the flattest to me... but I don't have a sub, does the 414 capture the low end in a pleasing way or do you find yourself using hpf with it?
Hey Matt. I don't usually high pass overheads, I just try to make sure all my microphones are in phase when I record. The bottom end isn't as punchy in the condenser microphones - but sometimes that is what is best for the sound. I tend to find myself using 4038s if I want a big spaced pair rock sound, R88 for a balanced sound with a little more room sound and 184s for a natural spaced pair. I always double mic the kick and snare for everything. I have a video coming in the next couple of weeks looking at stereo pairs for overheads - with and without close mics...
Coming back to this again, there is a *HUGE* mismatch in the levels of the tracks causing a bias in the perceived sound. I find myself having to adjust the volume manually to match the tracks which defeats the purpose of an A/B comparison.
If you could make another video with the same mics (or more, including an AKG C451b), an actual disciplined drummer, and level match the tracks, that would make this review worthwhile.
Thank you for your time and effort.
There are many things I’d do differently if I had time to do this video again. Both studios are so busy that revisiting this any time soon is unlikely! Which microphones specifically are you looking at? If I were buying SDCs it would be the 184s, LDCs 414s followed by 87s and for ribbons (as overheads) the Coles. The m160, Royer and R88 are all great additions to the locker - but I’d rarely use them as overheads. If I can offer any help, please ask.
Which mics are you considering? If I can be any help, I can give my opinion…
Hi Dave! Thanks for the video. I have a doubt. Im a looper-one-man-band Artist and I have bought the rode ntg2 because I had a dynamic mic (shure sm58 beta) but there is a lot of movements to adapt de mic to te different instruments that I use (percussion, guitar, flutes, singing bowls, voice...). I thougt that will be great to have a directional shotgun mic and bring the different instruments to the same área. But I have a problem now, the mic takes too much ambient noise and the feedback noise (excuse my english) appears soon on live performance. Do you know about some mic apropiate for my needs?
Some sort of condenser mic. The Oktava MK 012 is great for the money.
@@davespeakmanmusic thank you very much for the quick answer. I really apreciate it in a content creator. I will take a look. Thanks again!
Thanks for this very helpful video.
I have a question :
is the Oktava an upgrade to the pg 181 shure? I'd like to improve my sound by recording with a great couple of overhead.
Thanks for your kindly help
I’m not sure it would give you a huge improvement, they are great mics tho. What preamps are you using?
@@davespeakmanmusic I don't have bought any preamps yet 😕
You might get better results with upgrading your preamps first. The Oktavas are great mics tho. I have much more expensive mics, but still use the oktavas for stuff all the time. :-)
@@davespeakmanmusic ok, as soon as possible I'll buy preamps. thanks for your answer and for your advices 😊
What an absolute beast of a drummer! Thx for the inspiration!
I’ll pass the compliment on to Tom. Thanks for watching 😎
Quality Video Dave!
Thanks Ross. Which were your favourites? Another video coming next week on stereo overheads...
@@davespeakmanmusic I thought the Oktava sounded surprisingly good for the price it costs.
Yes mate, they’re amazing microphones - you can get matched pairs with different capsules at an amazing price. I sometimes use them on hihat or acoustic guitar as it has amazing clarity, I also use them with an omnidirectional capsule as room mics. Get some!!!
What are your thoughts on those Josephsons? Anything else youve found you really like them on? Or, did they not stick around? Ive come close to buying a pair a couple times.
They’re really really bright. Useful for some things for sure. I don’t own any myself, they belong to a friend of mine.
@@davespeakmanmusic Right I see. Ya totally, they def seem like a bright mic.
Whats with the spastic drummer??? Very unfortunate. Can you do all this again ? Much appreciated though. Just the same
What sort of remark is that? Using language like that is not cool. There’s absolutely no need or reason to insult Tom either.
Spastic is light hearted. It not like I said he’s a sloppy cymbal player or over an eccentric over dramatic attention seeking musician in front of a camera. But thanks for pulling those comments out of me. I’m sure he’s a nice guy. His timing is very good. Sorry for chiming in at all.
Spastic is light hearted. It not like I said he’s a sloppy cymbal player or over an eccentric over dramatic attention seeking musician in front of a camera. But thanks for pulling those comments out of me. I’m sure he’s a nice guy. His timing is very good. Sorry for chiming in at all.
@@Gretsch0997 I think OP's reply had more to do with the use of the word "spastic" than criticism of the drummer's style. It's a slur originally relating to muscle spasms/cerebral palsy, similar to although maybe not as widely known about as using the "R" word
Really great shootout,,, so wow,, the Coles 4038 and AEA R88 sure bring the thunder,,, really big low end information for an enormous drum sound,,,, but is that really the information we want from overheads?? I would say yes, but only if you have two more overhead mics specifically picking up focused high crisp information such as cymbals since the kick and other drums already will have direct mics,,, but if i could only afford one set of overheads, i would prefer something that will focus on cymbals in a pleasing way. The Oktava was a good compromise of both i think.
This is how I see it also. It really depends what part of the puzzle the overheads are playing. You can’t go wrong with the Oktavas - I use mine every week.
i had the octava too, and i really did not get warm with them...to my ear they have something harsh in the highs, like a weird boost in certain frequencies. I use the Coles the most go the time, and yes they could be a trick any and a bit too much as well, depend on what you are recording and how you EQ them...most of the time i can dial in what i am searching for, sometimes they are a bit to thick and soft in the transients, but they have a lovely character. Have the KM184 as well, but i think they have to go, very nice resolution and depth but a bit to shiny in my ears. Awaiting my AKG C414 the next days and i am very excited what. kind of color they bring in 🙂
I have the audio techinca pro 37's and I can confidently say that they are not the finest thing for overheads in my application. I play fairly bright cymbals, but not too bright -There is an insane high end "slash' with these microphones that I just can't deal with. Unique sounding mic, but quite colored. I actually like colored mics, but again, these are not the greatest overheads, imo. I have been looking to the Octava mk 012's as everyone says they're the best, but I'm just not compelled towards them for some reason... Anybody here using the Lewitt's offerings??
The 012s are great. The Neumann km184s are a little richer sounding - but cost a lot more. I did a session yesterday with a pair of 414s and remembered what I loved about that sound too.
@@davespeakmanmusic I've never used the 414's myself, but I'm sure they're fantastic. Do you fancy LDC's or SDC's on overheads? I've have used both with varying results... I'm actually a fan of sort of "bog standard" sounds, so I often don't mind a cheaper microphone... Just recently heard a video of a guy who did SM57's on overheads and I could find no fault in them! Ha!
For overheads, I tend to use a pair of ribbon mics. I use condensers for more detail; LDCs if I want it to sound bigger, SDCs if I want it to sound accurate. I often use a pair of Coles 4038s as overheads and then spot mic the hihat and ride with SDCs…
@@davespeakmanmusic Ohh... Wouldn't I love some COLES... Ahaha! Cheers, mate! Thanks for the reviews!!