In theory, to declare oneself as having faith is to understand that you do not know everything. It is so woefully undervalued, for this recognition is a hallmark of responsible living. Hope you all have a wonderful day
*TAKE THAT!* Very interesting insight. I knew that one of the major themes of Ace Attorney was belief in others despite adversities, but I never really gave it much thought. After watching this, I realized that they really do play around with this concept quite a bit, not just with Apollo's dilemma in Dual Destinies, but also with Phoenix's in Justice for All and Edgeworth's in Prosecutor's Path. Of course, this all raises the question of what to do when trust in your beliefs conflicts with a search for truth in said beliefs. In none of those cases do those whose faith is challenged let go of it easily, but the end result is different, leading to different interpretations of how such a situation can affect a person. I won't go into further detail for fear of spoiling events for those who haven't played the games, but I'm sure you get the picture.
I hadn't really thought about it deeply enough to make the connection to Ace Attorney, but the concept of faith in a concept in games has been something I've had floating in the back of my mind for a while now. I'd really like to see a game prescribe a- and then actively challenge the faith of player that their course of action is reasonable. It doesn't have to a core game mechanic or anything just something that is meant to sit in the back of the players minds and put to the test occasionally. I can think of at least one game that attempts, but it gets away with it much more easily since it puts it in a borderline religious context anyway, and that was in The Talos Principle. I never actually completed it due to the puzzles leaving me so stumped I often couldn't even solve some of them even with a text walkthrough, but the segments talking with the computer were some of the most interesting and thought provoking I've seen a game really attempt. Now mind you I have no idea if the responses were just canned responses made to make sense regardless of what you answered and it wasn't actually doing long term stuff with all the answers (like in Mass Effect occasionally), but regardless I think I came out of that with some interesting new takes on things. This seems a very interesting thing to do, but we would need to more actively involve the player in the plot and interpretation thereof if you are ever going to reach the second step of challenging that faith. Certainly we need to see more characters who have their faith being challenged as a part of their character development to the point that I think this is better suited for a secondary or side character, and I feel like that because if we do this with the player character without very ridgedly separating the player from the character, what if the player disagrees? Unless you carefully adapt it to the player (in which case you should have a blank slate player character to begin with) their choices my send the plot in directions that may mesh with the plot, or take too long to make capable of meshing. Ace Attorney does this very subtly at a point I won't mention, but it's the fact that your choice is only meaningful to you that makes it work. if it had been something that influenced the story, you run the risk of the player character's interpretation running counter to yours. Again, this is why I feel like this whole concept is far better suited for a secondary character for the most part.
I've had my doubts in God more than one time and this is important, you are totally right. Children often time grow up with their parents' idea of Christianity and only get to know God as a second hand "thing" like an estranged uncle you hear stories about but never meet for yourself. In my moments of doubt is where I reached out on my own, like Apollo did and now I'm my own Christian, sometimes even in opposition to my Parents' understanding of it but always true to God and myself. I never really considered this until now... good video man! I think I'll toss a sub your way for this.
As a person of pretty strong faith myself, I do really like the exploration the role of doubt in faith. You even said the very thing I often say when it comes to one's view of the world: reaffirming _why_ you believe what you believe. "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson
Great video, though I'd love some more thoughts on this subject and trust in regards to the Apollo game, considering how.. you would really have to get into spoilers to really talk about it. But talking about Trucy, Apollo, and Vera's relationship with faith could be really interesting. Honestly I'd kinda love a lit analysis of that game, because while I think there were some weak and weird steps they took with it, and most of the other main games have better executed stories, I think it might be the most interesting to analyze as lit.
I think the main thing with faith is that it's a bit hard to mechanize in a way that's enjoyable. As you point out, most games strive towards player agency. A game about faith would likely play like a gambling machine, strangely. Personally, the analogy I use in my game for faith (specifically, of the religious variety) is saving-the save points are churches and the player character prays when he saves.
Grandia II - You should play and analyze this game. This one actually deals with faith in a very interesting way and is one of the few that does it well.
Hey +Gamesaslit! Perhaps you had a different education in college, but I myself have a degree in English and, based on your close readings, and the title of your channel, I'm going to guess that we are fellow English majors with an interest in the artistic and narrative potential of video games. It's great to see someone focusing on the stories in particular. Please keep up the great work. This is a great analysis of the theme of faith, especially in video games. However, I don't think that what you said about belief and understanding at 4:15 that "belief gives way to understanding" is accurate to the relationship between faith and understanding in real life, even if it does accurately describe how the game Phoenix Wright treats the relationship between the two. I am a man of faith myself, and I do not think of my faith as giving way to understanding, but rather that the two coexist at the same time. Since faith is not always synonymous with belief, let's stick with the definition of faith that you described earlier in the video: that of trust in the object of your faith. Take your relationship with the narrative power of video games as an example. I would be surprised if you set out to look for deeper meaning in video games before you had that initial faith that video games can and do tell meaningful stories. I'm also sure that you have a better understanding of video games now than you did on you first started to believe that video games were more than a form of mere entertainment. Does that deeper understanding of your wife automatically diminish your faith in narrative and artistic potential of video games? Certainly not. Of course, even now there's always a chance that you will lose faith in video games' potential, but it certainly is not inevitable. Do you know of any other games that take faith as their theme and handle faith as compatible with understanding? Your video has made me realize that I'd really like to play a game with that kind of theme, if one exists.
It's great that you chose "faith" for this week's episode. As someone who has religious faith, I do find it confusing that not many games tackle this concept, or at least it view from a positive yet critical perspective. I often find games denouncing faith simply because of outside factors that associate with the specific faith. There are so many games about the horrors and wonders of scientific or human achievement, but very few on the spiritual side.
I loved this Pheonix Wright episode, especially after beating Professor Layton VS Pheonix Wright. :) The topic of Faith is interesting for this game series, it really does give new insight to the games when I think about it this way. There is something that does come to mind though, the fact that sometimes the clients aren't always innocent, and that the underlying truth is more important than making sure the client is declared as innocent or guilty. I remember encountering that in the 2nd game I think. Do you think that struggle for the truth has anything to do with the theme of Faith you brought up?
+silvermoon2134 Certainly. The series tends toward the logical process of working from existing beliefs (e.g. my client is innocent), then using investigation and debate to test it; if something seems contrary to your existing belief, you figure out whether your belief and/or the claim can reasonably adjust to the contradiction. If it can't, there's something wrong. So ultimately, faith is used as a means for uncovering truth; if that truth is contrary to that faith, as in the case you mentioned, it doesn't invalidate its use. Similar to a scientific hypothesis.
Other than perhaps this and Final Fantasy X, I can't think of too many other games where doubt in one's previously held faith plays such an important role.
+John Menard Indeed; I think FFX and the Dragon Age games (especially Inquisition) are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head. Japanese games deal with this theme relatively often, but usually with a storyline about finding out god is evil and killing him. You can examine the concept of faith in that context, but usually it's more cynicism with little exploration.
+BROmeliad1 It certainly does, but it's a bit more nuanced than that as well. It still affirms spirituality in many ways, and the story actually highly, HIGHLY resembles the Christian concept of the New Covenant, and Jesus' fulfillment of Mosaic law. Still not entirely sure what to make of that particular game's opinion of religion, but it's one of my favorite Final Fantasy games and I'll likely end up replaying and analyzing it on this show sometime down the line.
+BROmeliad1 Depending on which "2" (since 4 was originally released in America with that number), this might be a far better experience. :P Just be prepared for a whole lot of plot twists, great character development, and a good deal of awkwardness from the early era of video game voice acting. It's definitely one of my favorites, warts and all.
+BROmeliad1 Alright, awesome. The fourth game is pretty good; I don't love it as much as a lot of people seem to, but it's one of the better ones for sure. Did some interesting stuff with the whole redemption arc.
OBJECTION! Very interesting episode, Mr. Gronseth, very interesting. But you forgot a few things! Apollo's doubt has more to it than just that! Unlike Phoenix Wright, Apollo Justice wasn't mentored through any belief in faith, but instead focused on the truth and evidence. Phoenix has attempted to show him to strengths of believing in your client, but it never seemed in his game or in Dual Destinies that he ever really took any of it to heart. The faith he talks about in your clip is referring to his faith in his friends, not his clients, Mr. Gronseth! Furthermore, there are multiple examples in the series of how Phoenix's faith in his client can work against him. Apollo is much more of a realist and much more interested in logic than his "mentor". Anything to say, Mr. Gronseth?
+HarDHarKoopa HOLD IT! My question is simple: what relevance do these facts produce? I certainly would have addressed topics like the differences in how each character approaches faith, were this a full analysis (someday), but as a brief display of the series' approach to the subject such exhaustive analysis would have been impractical. It's better saved for a full, longform analysis. While the points you bring up broaden the series' approach to the subject of faith, they do not really alter the conclusions of this video. Many different kinds of faith are displayed, but given the brief time I had to produce the episode and the show's target running time, I was not attempting to address them in full detail, but simply to point out the picture of faith that the series presents. Though I would point out that Phoenix's unwavering faith in his clients getting him in trouble sometimes is part of the point. That kind of belief must be tempered by the kind of logic and doubt that Apollo showed. Dual Destinies brought the series' original depiction of faith to a more fully-realized picture of healthy belief; it's not a contradiction, but a thematic development.
+Games As Literature OBJECTION! You almost had me there for a moment, Mr. Gronseth. True, the series has played with the theme of faith many times, but...uh...I was hoping I'd think of something while I was objecting. I didn't. Therefore, as such, verily, I say...
+HarDHarKoopa OBJECTION! I thought of something! You never addressed my point that Apollo, as a character, has never actually dealt with faith much at all. In fact, a more likely interpretation of the game's events is that his friendship with *spoiler character here* caused him to doubt his belief in evidence. If the person he was sensing lie had been anyone else, he would have had little doubts in their guilt. But his faith in his friends is one of the only things he has, and as such he ends up struggling between the two things he believes in the most: friendship and truth. It's a struggle between two different faiths, not a doubting of one!
+HarDHarKoopa OBJECTION! Now we risk entering the realm of semantics, but I would argue that is precisely the point. As a defense attorney in the Ace Attorney universe, one is supposed to believe in their client. It may not have been a major theme for Apollo, but he did always do it; even when things got tough, he fought for their innocence in order to uncover the truth. The thing that shook his faith was when the "client" was someone he knew, and someone he trusted. The situation was far more personal, and thus the faith that he had never really needed to exercise was coming under attack. So you're right about him doubting his faith in evidence, but this is precisely where this doubt comes from! When a situation comes up that challenges our belief by clashing it against another belief, this is the seed of doubt that leads to further investigation. While your wording may be different, the same point is accomplished! My video is innocent!
+Games As Literature OBJECTION! Hehehehe. Not bad at all, Mr. Gronseth, but you've made a crucial mistake: your understanding of Apollo's character and of the Ace Attorney universe in general. Mia taught Phoenix to always believe in his clients, but Phoenix isn't and never really was Apollo's mentor: Kristoph Gavin was. When he's on the stand in Dual Destinies, that is who he is imitating. (Seriously, the sprites match up perfectly.) And Kristoph Gavin was never one to believe in anyone else. No, he instilled in Apollo that evidence is everything, something he repeats to Phoenix is Dual Destinies. The first time Apollo even heard of believing in his clients was when Phoenix told him that in 4-2, but he wasn't really in the mood to trust Phoenix at that point and clearly took the advice with a grain of salt. In his first case, he believed in Phoenix's innocence because Wright was his idol. In the third case Apollo questions his client constantly, and clearly doubts his innocence the entire time. In the fourth case he doesn't think about how he absolutely must trust his client the way Phoenix does, instead he meets her and realizes that the idea of her committing the crime in very unlikely. Apollo, in every appearance, doesn't put stock in having faith in a client, but on his own senses and reason. For him, putting his trust and faith in a friend over logic and what his senses tell him is a very rare thing indeed.
Great video, just one question for Sam... or anyone else, i have never played any of the Phoenix Wright games, is there any of them i can play on PC? and if there are, which one should i at least start with?
+Nico Gonzalez Unfortunately they're all on the DS, 3DS, and iOS. You could emulate them on PC, but in terms of legitimate means there's not really an option unfortunately. Though a DS Lite is super cheap now and would also let you play games like The World Ends with You and Professor Layton, so that'd be totally worth it. :P And you start with the first one, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. You can look up the order online, I imagine, and it's definitely better to play them in order (spinoffs optional).
thank you! it's not so much that it's expensive, it's hard to find legitimate copies of these games in my country, but thank you! i will definetely give it a try!
+Nico Gonzalez Ah, that is annoying. That's usually where I get a little fuzzy on copyright observance, personally, but I won't condone or condemn anything here. :P If you have a 3DS, the Phoenix Wright trilogy (the first three games) are on sale on the eShop; the iOS ones are also digital. So if you have either of those, you wouldn't need to worry about finding legitimate copies.
+Nico Gonzalez While it doesn't really matter what order you play the spinoffs in, I would strongly recommend playing the games in order of initial release, spinoffs included. As such, the order I would recommend is as follows: Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Justice for All Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney Miles Edgeworth: Ace Attorney Investigations Miles Edgeworth: Ace Attorney Investigations: Prosecutor's Path Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies
Great concept, really looking forward to experiencing the game. What are your thoughts on "Shadows on the Vatican" ? So far I think only two episodes are out, but 'faith' also plays a part in this game, as with its protagonist, as well as the connotations with regards to morality and corruption. Thanks for another insightful video.
+Crystalleafeon I'd certainly like to at some point. Unsure if I could get a full literary analysis out of them, but at the very least I could do an episode discussing how it ties puzzle solving in with storytelling as an object lesson on ludonarrative cohesion.
+Games As Literature What's the term for it? I heard the Crate & Crowbar podcast (British game journalists getting together every week to discuss the games they have been playing) call it 'ludonarrative consonance'. Cohesion sounds a bit more approachable, I suppose. Strunk and White did say we should avoid big words. :D
+yinyang Consonance works too; there's not really an official term for it. Games don't have the same level of established rhetoric as older art forms yet, so right now there are basically a bunch of people in the industry using their own words for things, and eventually one of them will end up being adopted into game development education and journalism.
Games As Literature Great point. Video [series?] idea: the dictionary of game criticism. Take a highbrow term that people may not be familiar with and analyse how it is implemented in games and why it is there.
I actually recommend not going over this topic again until you play through danganronpa 1 and 2. You said you were going to do so in the past, and it being heavily based off of phoenix wright series helps this discussion. However, Danganronpa takes this concept to the most extremes of both cases. I really cannot say anything meaningful without spoiling though. =3
I'm generally rather sceptical of the whole concept of faith. While I understand faith and blind faith are two separate things, I think that faith can still often be a dangerous and foolish thing. But at the same time I think a lot of what people call "faith" is just conflating it with the idea of trust. This is mostly the case with more innocuous examples of faith. But still, a lot of what is just trust in something you can be fairly certain that you can believe in based on previous experience gets hijacked by the "faith" in a way that tries to make it seem less problematic than it really is. Some people then take it even further and try to conflate simple trust with blind faith too. That's when things start getting very dangerous. And on that example from Ace Attorney, could that not simply be an example of confirmation bias? I personally don't know anything about the story of that game, so that assessment could be totally wrong, but just from what you showed, it seems like that could be a possibility.
+Scrustle Most everything has the potential to be dangerous and foolish. But usually that means we should come to understand, respect, and properly utilize them, not simply abandon them; that's what usually leads to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As for Ace Attorney, I can see how that could be considered based on this video, but I think the series covers that pretty well. There's a lot more nuance to be found in five 15-hour games than in one 10-minute video. :P
This is interesting but if you are looking games with faith in a higher being as a theme (as opposed to having in others or yourself) you will find more fly on the negative or neutral side of the issue, the only one on the positive side I can think of is Okami (mostly cause you are a god in that game), for Neutral games you got Dragon Age: Inquisition which lets you pick how you lead your army. For against you got Xenoblade, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (which sadly unlike Path of Radiance is badly written), and which both end with the anime trope of killing god, these kind of games tend to discourage faith in higher being and encourage faith in oneself or friends Xenoblade is big on this. More game have started covering the topic sadly few on the positive side even Okami is not big on it (though it is not to big on story) but at least it is falls on this not often used side. The thing reason that games fall the negative side is for the sake of the empowerment fantasy continue in reply..
The reason that games fall the negative side is for the sake of the empowerment fantasy to make so you can even conquer God and say you don't even need him that you are powerful and wise enough to do well on your own, all of this is to pander to the power fantasy, even in Okami, since you are a god in that game encouraging people to have faith in you adds to the power fantasy, so in Okami really the only reason it is on the positive side of things is because it adds to the power fantasy. So in the end I think the state of things is more to evoke the power fantasy then the creators not liking religion.
+Corbin Folkman Classic Fire Emblem is actually a really interesting case study, as it employs a different take on theology depending on which game universe we're talking about. In Tellius, the creator goddess is fractured and the protagonists aren't seeking to kill her, but to reunite her with her other half; this theme of balance is very Eastern, although the trappings bring to mind various aspects of Western religion and mythology. But if you're looking for a thoughtful and realistic portrayal of faith as most people actually encounter it, the Elibe saga (FE6 and 7) does this surprisingly well in some of its support conversations. This isn't a universe where the deities pop in to help or hinder the characters: faith is dealt with purely on the human level, and as a result it deals with topics like forgiveness, religious pluralism, guilt, and compassion. Lucius in particular stands out as a wonderfully-written religious character whose struggles are neither trivialized nor presented as insurmountable, but are actually woven into his faith. This down-to-earth approach is so refreshing and still quite rare not just in games, but media in general. I think it's interesting that you brought up the idea of Radiant Dawn as a ("badly written") power fantasy, because so much of that game thematically is about the drawbacks of various types of power (Ike's "nothing gets to me" masculinity, Elincia's newfound political influence, Pelleas's deal with the devil, etc.). I think, before the series adopted the player avatar, Fire Emblem was actually very consistent about challenging the idea of a video game being a power fantasy, and did so in a variety of ways.
+Rising Sunfish True true, Lucius is a great character (Though FE 7 is my favorite fire emblem and my second favorite game of all time so small amount of bias) that mostly do to his relationship with Raven as the juxtaposition of their personalities provide a great stage for Lucius to talk on. But Fire Emblem 7's main themes are Family, the goodness in men, and the ability to change, (which is meant juxtapose with Zephiel motives in 6). Not faith, believe, order and chaos like in 10. Faith & Religion in all other Fire Emblems is just there for world building though FE 4, 7, 8, and 9 are very good at world building and creating faith based motivators for many of the Characters. So they are great examples of using faith even when it is not your theme.
That awkward moment when you're more familiar with Faith than you are with the Phoenix Wright series. Holy crap, am I even a gamer? In your opinion, how might religion, and indeed, the perception of religion, be different if doubt like Apollo's were directly associated with Faith? This video kind popped up at an interesting time for me.
+Cassuis Augustus Cornelius Mc'Lettuce i think religion would be ALOT better if it would be willing to accept doubt like apollo's.i can say this cuz i grew up in a religious family and the church they took me to and the school i went to were extremely blind faith focused which made it hard to ask questions as a kid(even as an adult actually...they shy away if questioned cuz they never try to research their own beliefs)
phoenixstarlight I didn't actually ask about adoption, but *association.* I, too, grew up in a religious family. They took me to church. Religion was thoroughly mixed with my education. Yet despite this, I questioned *everything,* man. I won't deny the likelihood of Christians especially to shut themselves out of debate and live in their own ignorance - or that those that do usually wind up misunderstanding their own beliefs. But I also can't say that the levels of doubt we perceive in Apollo aren't already foundational to the faith of so many of the wisest people of faith I know. I suppose the second piece of my question is, assuming Doubt like Apollo yields Faith like Potato's, how would this effect the perception of religion by those on the outside? That was sort of what I'd like to have answered.
think i misunderstood the question and was also kinda well...venting a bit without really thinking...i kinda felt like a bad person for doubting thanks to the people i was around...not that everyone in church treats doubt like that...i just had rotten luck with who i grew up around in church...anyway sorry if i misunderstood
+Cassuis Augustus Cornelius Mc'Lettuce That's an interesting question, and probably outside my area of expertise; I'm here to analyze games. :P But I'd say that it'd result in a far stronger church; that is to say, the number of members of a given religion who actually have strong, reasoned stances on their beliefs would increase. It wouldn't do much to persuade some people--mostly those who follow the philosophical idea that our reality as seen, observed, and tested is not only all we know, but all that can possibly exist--but it would certainly cut down on the amount of people who cling to the beliefs they were raised with rather than the beliefs they truly hold, and in turn I think public perception would improve.
+Cassuis Augustus Cornelius Mc'Lettuce I might say that it is skepticism, not doubt, that is the antithesis to faith: Those two are opposing philosophies, and the concepts of doubt and belief are subordinate to them, in the sense that the philosophies inform how belief and doubt are handled. One cannot be properly skeptical regarding faith so long as one holds faith to have sufficient value to warrant its own defense -- So long as one wants to believe that a given proposition is true, one cannot fully want to believe that which is true. I am not much familiar with Phoenix Wright, but this appears to be an affirmation of the value of faith. I don't at all regard this as unusual behavior by the religious (or, to be fair, of anyone about anything they believe).
Ya know, I really appreciate your content, but it be sweat if it was shorter and you dressed it up as more... ... ...cool? I'm not sure that's the word for it
+David Watson Well feel free to give suggestions, especially if you have a bit more specificity so I can actually do something about it. :P As for shorter... only so much I can do about that without hurting my content. I try to keep normal videos between 8-10 minutes, because any shorter wouldn't be enough to cover the topics and any longer could lose people's attention. Not sure how I could make them any more concise than that. Not counting the analyses, of course; those are crazy long because they have to be.
In theory, to declare oneself as having faith is to understand that you do not know everything. It is so woefully undervalued, for this recognition is a hallmark of responsible living. Hope you all have a wonderful day
*TAKE THAT!* Very interesting insight. I knew that one of the major themes of Ace Attorney was belief in others despite adversities, but I never really gave it much thought. After watching this, I realized that they really do play around with this concept quite a bit, not just with Apollo's dilemma in Dual Destinies, but also with Phoenix's in Justice for All and Edgeworth's in Prosecutor's Path. Of course, this all raises the question of what to do when trust in your beliefs conflicts with a search for truth in said beliefs. In none of those cases do those whose faith is challenged let go of it easily, but the end result is different, leading to different interpretations of how such a situation can affect a person. I won't go into further detail for fear of spoiling events for those who haven't played the games, but I'm sure you get the picture.
This is probably your low key best video on your channel.
I hadn't really thought about it deeply enough to make the connection to Ace Attorney, but the concept of faith in a concept in games has been something I've had floating in the back of my mind for a while now. I'd really like to see a game prescribe a- and then actively challenge the faith of player that their course of action is reasonable. It doesn't have to a core game mechanic or anything just something that is meant to sit in the back of the players minds and put to the test occasionally.
I can think of at least one game that attempts, but it gets away with it much more easily since it puts it in a borderline religious context anyway, and that was in The Talos Principle. I never actually completed it due to the puzzles leaving me so stumped I often couldn't even solve some of them even with a text walkthrough, but the segments talking with the computer were some of the most interesting and thought provoking I've seen a game really attempt. Now mind you I have no idea if the responses were just canned responses made to make sense regardless of what you answered and it wasn't actually doing long term stuff with all the answers (like in Mass Effect occasionally), but regardless I think I came out of that with some interesting new takes on things.
This seems a very interesting thing to do, but we would need to more actively involve the player in the plot and interpretation thereof if you are ever going to reach the second step of challenging that faith. Certainly we need to see more characters who have their faith being challenged as a part of their character development to the point that I think this is better suited for a secondary or side character, and I feel like that because if we do this with the player character without very ridgedly separating the player from the character, what if the player disagrees? Unless you carefully adapt it to the player (in which case you should have a blank slate player character to begin with) their choices my send the plot in directions that may mesh with the plot, or take too long to make capable of meshing. Ace Attorney does this very subtly at a point I won't mention, but it's the fact that your choice is only meaningful to you that makes it work. if it had been something that influenced the story, you run the risk of the player character's interpretation running counter to yours. Again, this is why I feel like this whole concept is far better suited for a secondary character for the most part.
I've had my doubts in God more than one time and this is important, you are totally right. Children often time grow up with their parents' idea of Christianity and only get to know God as a second hand "thing" like an estranged uncle you hear stories about but never meet for yourself. In my moments of doubt is where I reached out on my own, like Apollo did and now I'm my own Christian, sometimes even in opposition to my Parents' understanding of it but always true to God and myself.
I never really considered this until now... good video man! I think I'll toss a sub your way for this.
As a person of pretty strong faith myself, I do really like the exploration the role of doubt in faith. You even said the very thing I often say when it comes to one's view of the world: reaffirming _why_ you believe what you believe.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
-Thomas Jefferson
I think Duel destinies really pulls this theme off well
Glad I found you! Excellent analysis of faith and doubt. Very interested in ludonarrative, and Patreon is calling my name...
Thank you, this was a beautiful video.
Great video, though I'd love some more thoughts on this subject and trust in regards to the Apollo game, considering how.. you would really have to get into spoilers to really talk about it. But talking about Trucy, Apollo, and Vera's relationship with faith could be really interesting.
Honestly I'd kinda love a lit analysis of that game, because while I think there were some weak and weird steps they took with it, and most of the other main games have better executed stories, I think it might be the most interesting to analyze as lit.
Love your videos, great stuff!
Objection!
Don't really have any problem here, but I just wanted to say this
Could have also been that asshole that says "First!"on every video.
I think the main thing with faith is that it's a bit hard to mechanize in a way that's enjoyable. As you point out, most games strive towards player agency. A game about faith would likely play like a gambling machine, strangely.
Personally, the analogy I use in my game for faith (specifically, of the religious variety) is saving-the save points are churches and the player character prays when he saves.
Grandia II - You should play and analyze this game. This one actually deals with faith in a very interesting way and is one of the few that does it well.
Amazing analysis. I started to study theology after 10 years of atheism (from age 18 to 28), and got to the same conclusion.
Hey +Gamesaslit! Perhaps you had a different education in college, but I myself have a degree in English and, based on your close readings, and the title of your channel, I'm going to guess that we are fellow English majors with an interest in the artistic and narrative potential of video games. It's great to see someone focusing on the stories in particular. Please keep up the great work.
This is a great analysis of the theme of faith, especially in video games. However, I don't think that what you said about belief and understanding at 4:15 that "belief gives way to understanding" is accurate to the relationship between faith and understanding in real life, even if it does accurately describe how the game Phoenix Wright treats the relationship between the two. I am a man of faith myself, and I do not think of my faith as giving way to understanding, but rather that the two coexist at the same time. Since faith is not always synonymous with belief, let's stick with the definition of faith that you described earlier in the video: that of trust in the object of your faith.
Take your relationship with the narrative power of video games as an example. I would be surprised if you set out to look for deeper meaning in video games before you had that initial faith that video games can and do tell meaningful stories. I'm also sure that you have a better understanding of video games now than you did on you first started to believe that video games were more than a form of mere entertainment. Does that deeper understanding of your wife automatically diminish your faith in narrative and artistic potential of video games? Certainly not. Of course, even now there's always a chance that you will lose faith in video games' potential, but it certainly is not inevitable.
Do you know of any other games that take faith as their theme and handle faith as compatible with understanding? Your video has made me realize that I'd really like to play a game with that kind of theme, if one exists.
It's great that you chose "faith" for this week's episode. As someone who has religious faith, I do find it confusing that not many games tackle this concept, or at least it view from a positive yet critical perspective. I often find games denouncing faith simply because of outside factors that associate with the specific faith. There are so many games about the horrors and wonders of scientific or human achievement, but very few on the spiritual side.
I loved this Pheonix Wright episode, especially after beating Professor Layton VS Pheonix Wright. :) The topic of Faith is interesting for this game series, it really does give new insight to the games when I think about it this way. There is something that does come to mind though, the fact that sometimes the clients aren't always innocent, and that the underlying truth is more important than making sure the client is declared as innocent or guilty. I remember encountering that in the 2nd game I think. Do you think that struggle for the truth has anything to do with the theme of Faith you brought up?
+silvermoon2134 Certainly. The series tends toward the logical process of working from existing beliefs (e.g. my client is innocent), then using investigation and debate to test it; if something seems contrary to your existing belief, you figure out whether your belief and/or the claim can reasonably adjust to the contradiction. If it can't, there's something wrong.
So ultimately, faith is used as a means for uncovering truth; if that truth is contrary to that faith, as in the case you mentioned, it doesn't invalidate its use. Similar to a scientific hypothesis.
Other than perhaps this and Final Fantasy X, I can't think of too many other games where doubt in one's previously held faith plays such an important role.
+John Menard Indeed; I think FFX and the Dragon Age games (especially Inquisition) are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head. Japanese games deal with this theme relatively often, but usually with a storyline about finding out god is evil and killing him. You can examine the concept of faith in that context, but usually it's more cynicism with little exploration.
+BROmeliad1 It certainly does, but it's a bit more nuanced than that as well. It still affirms spirituality in many ways, and the story actually highly, HIGHLY resembles the Christian concept of the New Covenant, and Jesus' fulfillment of Mosaic law. Still not entirely sure what to make of that particular game's opinion of religion, but it's one of my favorite Final Fantasy games and I'll likely end up replaying and analyzing it on this show sometime down the line.
+BROmeliad1 Depending on which "2" (since 4 was originally released in America with that number), this might be a far better experience. :P Just be prepared for a whole lot of plot twists, great character development, and a good deal of awkwardness from the early era of video game voice acting.
It's definitely one of my favorites, warts and all.
+BROmeliad1 Alright, awesome. The fourth game is pretty good; I don't love it as much as a lot of people seem to, but it's one of the better ones for sure. Did some interesting stuff with the whole redemption arc.
OBJECTION! Very interesting episode, Mr. Gronseth, very interesting. But you forgot a few things! Apollo's doubt has more to it than just that! Unlike Phoenix Wright, Apollo Justice wasn't mentored through any belief in faith, but instead focused on the truth and evidence. Phoenix has attempted to show him to strengths of believing in your client, but it never seemed in his game or in Dual Destinies that he ever really took any of it to heart. The faith he talks about in your clip is referring to his faith in his friends, not his clients, Mr. Gronseth!
Furthermore, there are multiple examples in the series of how Phoenix's faith in his client can work against him. Apollo is much more of a realist and much more interested in logic than his "mentor".
Anything to say, Mr. Gronseth?
+HarDHarKoopa HOLD IT!
My question is simple: what relevance do these facts produce?
I certainly would have addressed topics like the differences in how each character approaches faith, were this a full analysis (someday), but as a brief display of the series' approach to the subject such exhaustive analysis would have been impractical. It's better saved for a full, longform analysis. While the points you bring up broaden the series' approach to the subject of faith, they do not really alter the conclusions of this video.
Many different kinds of faith are displayed, but given the brief time I had to produce the episode and the show's target running time, I was not attempting to address them in full detail, but simply to point out the picture of faith that the series presents.
Though I would point out that Phoenix's unwavering faith in his clients getting him in trouble sometimes is part of the point. That kind of belief must be tempered by the kind of logic and doubt that Apollo showed. Dual Destinies brought the series' original depiction of faith to a more fully-realized picture of healthy belief; it's not a contradiction, but a thematic development.
+Games As Literature OBJECTION!
You almost had me there for a moment, Mr. Gronseth. True, the series has played with the theme of faith many times, but...uh...I was hoping I'd think of something while I was objecting. I didn't. Therefore, as such, verily, I say...
+HarDHarKoopa OBJECTION!
I thought of something! You never addressed my point that Apollo, as a character, has never actually dealt with faith much at all. In fact, a more likely interpretation of the game's events is that his friendship with *spoiler character here* caused him to doubt his belief in evidence. If the person he was sensing lie had been anyone else, he would have had little doubts in their guilt. But his faith in his friends is one of the only things he has, and as such he ends up struggling between the two things he believes in the most: friendship and truth. It's a struggle between two different faiths, not a doubting of one!
+HarDHarKoopa OBJECTION!
Now we risk entering the realm of semantics, but I would argue that is precisely the point. As a defense attorney in the Ace Attorney universe, one is supposed to believe in their client. It may not have been a major theme for Apollo, but he did always do it; even when things got tough, he fought for their innocence in order to uncover the truth. The thing that shook his faith was when the "client" was someone he knew, and someone he trusted. The situation was far more personal, and thus the faith that he had never really needed to exercise was coming under attack.
So you're right about him doubting his faith in evidence, but this is precisely where this doubt comes from! When a situation comes up that challenges our belief by clashing it against another belief, this is the seed of doubt that leads to further investigation. While your wording may be different, the same point is accomplished! My video is innocent!
+Games As Literature OBJECTION!
Hehehehe. Not bad at all, Mr. Gronseth, but you've made a crucial mistake: your understanding of Apollo's character and of the Ace Attorney universe in general. Mia taught Phoenix to always believe in his clients, but Phoenix isn't and never really was Apollo's mentor: Kristoph Gavin was. When he's on the stand in Dual Destinies, that is who he is imitating. (Seriously, the sprites match up perfectly.) And Kristoph Gavin was never one to believe in anyone else. No, he instilled in Apollo that evidence is everything, something he repeats to Phoenix is Dual Destinies.
The first time Apollo even heard of believing in his clients was when Phoenix told him that in 4-2, but he wasn't really in the mood to trust Phoenix at that point and clearly took the advice with a grain of salt. In his first case, he believed in Phoenix's innocence because Wright was his idol. In the third case Apollo questions his client constantly, and clearly doubts his innocence the entire time. In the fourth case he doesn't think about how he absolutely must trust his client the way Phoenix does, instead he meets her and realizes that the idea of her committing the crime in very unlikely. Apollo, in every appearance, doesn't put stock in having faith in a client, but on his own senses and reason. For him, putting his trust and faith in a friend over logic and what his senses tell him is a very rare thing indeed.
Great video, just one question for Sam... or anyone else, i have never played any of the Phoenix Wright games, is there any of them i can play on PC? and if there are, which one should i at least start with?
+Nico Gonzalez Unfortunately they're all on the DS, 3DS, and iOS. You could emulate them on PC, but in terms of legitimate means there's not really an option unfortunately. Though a DS Lite is super cheap now and would also let you play games like The World Ends with You and Professor Layton, so that'd be totally worth it. :P
And you start with the first one, Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. You can look up the order online, I imagine, and it's definitely better to play them in order (spinoffs optional).
thank you! it's not so much that it's expensive, it's hard to find legitimate copies of these games in my country, but thank you! i will definetely give it a try!
+Nico Gonzalez Ah, that is annoying. That's usually where I get a little fuzzy on copyright observance, personally, but I won't condone or condemn anything here. :P
If you have a 3DS, the Phoenix Wright trilogy (the first three games) are on sale on the eShop; the iOS ones are also digital. So if you have either of those, you wouldn't need to worry about finding legitimate copies.
+Nico Gonzalez While it doesn't really matter what order you play the spinoffs in, I would strongly recommend playing the games in order of initial release, spinoffs included. As such, the order I would recommend is as follows:
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Justice for All
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney
Miles Edgeworth: Ace Attorney Investigations
Miles Edgeworth: Ace Attorney Investigations: Prosecutor's Path
Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies
David Guthary wow thanks! i actually hadn't had any time at all to play them untill recently so i guess now i'll have to tackle that list :)
Great concept, really looking forward to experiencing the game.
What are your thoughts on "Shadows on the Vatican" ? So far I think only two episodes are out, but 'faith' also plays a part in this game, as with its protagonist, as well as the connotations with regards to morality and corruption.
Thanks for another insightful video.
+Aria Mohtadi I have not heard of this. I guess I'll need to check it out.
Will you do one on the Proffeaor Layton games?
+Crystalleafeon I'd certainly like to at some point. Unsure if I could get a full literary analysis out of them, but at the very least I could do an episode discussing how it ties puzzle solving in with storytelling as an object lesson on ludonarrative cohesion.
+Games As Literature What's the term for it? I heard the Crate & Crowbar podcast (British game journalists getting together every week to discuss the games they have been playing) call it 'ludonarrative consonance'. Cohesion sounds a bit more approachable, I suppose. Strunk and White did say we should avoid big words. :D
+yinyang Consonance works too; there's not really an official term for it. Games don't have the same level of established rhetoric as older art forms yet, so right now there are basically a bunch of people in the industry using their own words for things, and eventually one of them will end up being adopted into game development education and journalism.
Games As Literature
Great point. Video [series?] idea: the dictionary of game criticism. Take a highbrow term that people may not be familiar with and analyse how it is implemented in games and why it is there.
I actually recommend not going over this topic again until you play through danganronpa 1 and 2. You said you were going to do so in the past, and it being heavily based off of phoenix wright series helps this discussion. However, Danganronpa takes this concept to the most extremes of both cases. I really cannot say anything meaningful without spoiling though. =3
I'm generally rather sceptical of the whole concept of faith. While I understand faith and blind faith are two separate things, I think that faith can still often be a dangerous and foolish thing. But at the same time I think a lot of what people call "faith" is just conflating it with the idea of trust. This is mostly the case with more innocuous examples of faith. But still, a lot of what is just trust in something you can be fairly certain that you can believe in based on previous experience gets hijacked by the "faith" in a way that tries to make it seem less problematic than it really is. Some people then take it even further and try to conflate simple trust with blind faith too. That's when things start getting very dangerous.
And on that example from Ace Attorney, could that not simply be an example of confirmation bias? I personally don't know anything about the story of that game, so that assessment could be totally wrong, but just from what you showed, it seems like that could be a possibility.
+Scrustle Most everything has the potential to be dangerous and foolish. But usually that means we should come to understand, respect, and properly utilize them, not simply abandon them; that's what usually leads to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
As for Ace Attorney, I can see how that could be considered based on this video, but I think the series covers that pretty well. There's a lot more nuance to be found in five 15-hour games than in one 10-minute video. :P
This is interesting but if you are looking games with faith in a higher being as a theme (as opposed to having in others or yourself) you will find more fly on the negative or neutral side of the issue, the only one on the positive side I can think of is Okami (mostly cause you are a god in that game), for Neutral games you got Dragon Age: Inquisition which lets you pick how you lead your army. For against you got Xenoblade, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (which sadly unlike Path of Radiance is badly written), and which both end with the anime trope of killing god, these kind of games tend to discourage faith in higher being and encourage faith in oneself or friends Xenoblade is big on this. More game have started covering the topic sadly few on the positive side even Okami is not big on it (though it is not to big on story) but at least it is falls on this not often used side.
The thing reason that games fall the negative side is for the sake of the empowerment fantasy continue in reply..
The reason that games fall the negative side is for the sake of the empowerment fantasy to make so you can even conquer God and say you don't even need him that you are powerful and wise enough to do well on your own, all of this is to pander to the power fantasy, even in Okami, since you are a god in that game encouraging people to have faith in you adds to the power fantasy, so in Okami really the only reason it is on the positive side of things is because it adds to the power fantasy. So in the end I think the state of things is more to evoke the power fantasy then the creators not liking religion.
+Corbin Folkman Classic Fire Emblem is actually a really interesting case study, as it employs a different take on theology depending on which game universe we're talking about. In Tellius, the creator goddess is fractured and the protagonists aren't seeking to kill her, but to reunite her with her other half; this theme of balance is very Eastern, although the trappings bring to mind various aspects of Western religion and mythology. But if you're looking for a thoughtful and realistic portrayal of faith as most people actually encounter it, the Elibe saga (FE6 and 7) does this surprisingly well in some of its support conversations. This isn't a universe where the deities pop in to help or hinder the characters: faith is dealt with purely on the human level, and as a result it deals with topics like forgiveness, religious pluralism, guilt, and compassion. Lucius in particular stands out as a wonderfully-written religious character whose struggles are neither trivialized nor presented as insurmountable, but are actually woven into his faith. This down-to-earth approach is so refreshing and still quite rare not just in games, but media in general.
I think it's interesting that you brought up the idea of Radiant Dawn as a ("badly written") power fantasy, because so much of that game thematically is about the drawbacks of various types of power (Ike's "nothing gets to me" masculinity, Elincia's newfound political influence, Pelleas's deal with the devil, etc.). I think, before the series adopted the player avatar, Fire Emblem was actually very consistent about challenging the idea of a video game being a power fantasy, and did so in a variety of ways.
+Rising Sunfish
True true, Lucius is a great character (Though FE 7 is my favorite fire emblem and my second favorite game of all time so small amount of bias) that mostly do to his relationship with Raven as the juxtaposition of their personalities provide a great stage for Lucius to talk on. But Fire Emblem 7's main themes are Family, the goodness in men, and the ability to change, (which is meant juxtapose with Zephiel motives in 6). Not faith, believe, order and chaos like in 10. Faith & Religion in all other Fire Emblems is just there for world building though FE 4, 7, 8, and 9 are very good at world building and creating faith based motivators for many of the Characters. So they are great examples of using faith even when it is not your theme.
That awkward moment when you're more familiar with Faith than you are with the Phoenix Wright series. Holy crap, am I even a gamer?
In your opinion, how might religion, and indeed, the perception of religion, be different if doubt like Apollo's were directly associated with Faith? This video kind popped up at an interesting time for me.
+Cassuis Augustus Cornelius Mc'Lettuce i think religion would be ALOT better if it would be willing to accept doubt like apollo's.i can say this cuz i grew up in a religious family and the church they took me to and the school i went to were extremely blind faith focused which made it hard to ask questions as a kid(even as an adult actually...they shy away if questioned cuz they never try to research their own beliefs)
phoenixstarlight I didn't actually ask about adoption, but *association.*
I, too, grew up in a religious family. They took me to church. Religion was thoroughly mixed with my education. Yet despite this, I questioned *everything,* man. I won't deny the likelihood of Christians especially to shut themselves out of debate and live in their own ignorance - or that those that do usually wind up misunderstanding their own beliefs. But I also can't say that the levels of doubt we perceive in Apollo aren't already foundational to the faith of so many of the wisest people of faith I know.
I suppose the second piece of my question is, assuming Doubt like Apollo yields Faith like Potato's, how would this effect the perception of religion by those on the outside? That was sort of what I'd like to have answered.
think i misunderstood the question and was also kinda well...venting a bit without really thinking...i kinda felt like a bad person for doubting thanks to the people i was around...not that everyone in church treats doubt like that...i just had rotten luck with who i grew up around in church...anyway sorry if i misunderstood
+Cassuis Augustus Cornelius Mc'Lettuce That's an interesting question, and probably outside my area of expertise; I'm here to analyze games. :P
But I'd say that it'd result in a far stronger church; that is to say, the number of members of a given religion who actually have strong, reasoned stances on their beliefs would increase. It wouldn't do much to persuade some people--mostly those who follow the philosophical idea that our reality as seen, observed, and tested is not only all we know, but all that can possibly exist--but it would certainly cut down on the amount of people who cling to the beliefs they were raised with rather than the beliefs they truly hold, and in turn I think public perception would improve.
+Cassuis Augustus Cornelius Mc'Lettuce I might say that it is skepticism, not doubt, that is the antithesis to faith: Those two are opposing philosophies, and the concepts of doubt and belief are subordinate to them, in the sense that the philosophies inform how belief and doubt are handled. One cannot be properly skeptical regarding faith so long as one holds faith to have sufficient value to warrant its own defense -- So long as one wants to believe that a given proposition is true, one cannot fully want to believe that which is true.
I am not much familiar with Phoenix Wright, but this appears to be an affirmation of the value of faith. I don't at all regard this as unusual behavior by the religious (or, to be fair, of anyone about anything they believe).
Can you please get a hair cut....
+David Watson I'll admit, I didn't expect anyone to really care about the length of my hair. It's been longer on the show before anyway.
oh snap, you read my comment
+David Watson Heh, I do that. The channel isn't nearly big enough yet for me to ignore them all. ^_^
Ya know, I really appreciate your content, but it be sweat if it was shorter and you dressed it up as more... ... ...cool? I'm not sure that's the word for it
+David Watson Well feel free to give suggestions, especially if you have a bit more specificity so I can actually do something about it. :P
As for shorter... only so much I can do about that without hurting my content. I try to keep normal videos between 8-10 minutes, because any shorter wouldn't be enough to cover the topics and any longer could lose people's attention. Not sure how I could make them any more concise than that. Not counting the analyses, of course; those are crazy long because they have to be.