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When Sonic Games Play Themselves | Automation Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2023
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What do people mean by automation in Sonic? The simple answer is that they are referring to the parts in Sonic games where the game takes control away from the player and allows them to watch it play for a few seconds. Games achieve this via dashpads that propel you forward automatically. they can mean it by talking about prolonged sequences with springs bouncing you from wall to wall, or with extended grind rail segments that don’t require much interactivity from the player. So then the natural question to follow that up is…what’s the issue? I think this subject desperately needs more nuance, and I wanted to bring my thoughts to the table on the subject of automation in Sonic.
Twitter ▶️ / jsreviews2
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Sad, they seem to be perfect. But all have the Analog Stick on the wrong position, so they are useless to me.
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Lowkey the nyxi controller is pretty wack
I'm wondering why you specifically used Mario Sunshine to demonstrate Nyxi's GameCube controller - are you foreshadowing a review or something?
I think it's important to view automation not as a binary, but more of a sliding scale from "more automation" to "less automation". I've considered making an entire video about this, similar to the "Context Sensitivity" video from Matthewmatosis. The core thesis of that video is that you cannot remove context sensitivity in games, but you can minimize it.
When you break it down enough, there is no such thing as "full control" in any game. "Automation" is basically making a decision for you, instead of letting you make that decision yourself. Even the act of walking/running is, to an extent, "automated" in any game, because you aren't choosing how to lift each foot, roll the heel, angle the toes, etc. The character does these for you. Tilting up on a stick or holding a W key requires the game to translate these inputs into automated actions. Therefore, this is "more automation", but a full VR body-tracked suit would be "less automation". Hitting a button to reload is "more automation", but manually reloading a gun in VR with hand tracking is "less automation" (again, not "no automation" because there are still so many subtle factors done for you, like magnetizing the ammo into the gun). Dash panels that just boost Sonic without locking his controls are "less automated", but the ones that do lock all your inputs are "more automated".
It might sound silly at first, but the more you think about it, the more it all makes sense. I think in order for Sonic fans, or anyone talking about game design, to properly discuss topics like this, we need to understand these ideas more deeply and update our language associated with them. I don't disagree with your video of course, just outlining how I've been approaching this topic myself as of late, as I think it's incredibly interesting.
I think your logic on this makes sense, and that is a smart way to look at the inherent game design across all games, not just Sonic ones. So I’d definitely interested in that video.
True. As obvious as it sounds, understanding the fact game design is more of a spectrum than a list of binary mechanics, and expressing critique with that in mind, can be the difference between constructive criticism and hypocrisy.
@@JsReviewsmegaman x dive offline review
automation only fully disappears with games that are competitive, disregard story or carefully and intentionally interlace story with gameplay like dark souls or half life
Huh that’s smart and I also saw the context sensitivity video and what I was thinking about was how context sensitivity was supposed to be more rewarding bc it isn’t something you can do all the time and requires active player planning which is why spindash is more loved than boost but I feel like the way adventure 1 implemented it to be to OP bc most of the game requires a charged spindash jump for the cool skips but on top of that any section of normal ground you actually play can be mashed through which never complimented the game design bc on ground speed was completely at you mercy the only real way to feel like your doing things faster is skipping level design which I think isn’t as engaging as if the spindash didn’t. Give you max speed
My favorite automation segment is in Sonic Generations when you slide down the clock tower in Rooftop Run with many hot air balloons passing by, simply incredible.
Goshhh me too, it's such a great moment
Gay
Plus it only lasts a few seconds, and is sandwiched on either side by a quickstep section going up the tower, and a 2d platforming section on the other side that, if you're attempting to play perfectly while maintaining speed, is probably one of the hardest 2d sections of the game to perfect.
It's a perfect moment of grace, connecting two fast paced moments with a "music cuts out during the slowmo shot" type of feel to it.
One of the most satisfying experiences I ever feel when playing something like Sonic Unleashed and Generations is that, boosting feels like a greater risk/greater reward gimmick. Perfecting stages at high speeds and making no mistakes to keep the momentum going always seemed like a fun and challenging thing to do that it never made either games stop being fun in my eyes. Sure the ranking could’ve been better fleshed out, but its a mechanic I do actually really enjoy. Unlike Colours and Forces where it just feels like boosting is such an afterthought that it doesn’t make the game better or worse by any means. Personally, I find Frontiers my least favourite use of the boost mechanic since its mostly just a “go fast” ability in that game, and you need to level up your speed more so Sonic can run faster. However maxing out the ring counter and especially in combination with the new spin dash ability… it does make blasting across the islands at mach 20 just so much damn fun.
THIS, that first part is exactly why I like the older Boost games, rather than needing to build speed, (which I feel is kinda BS cause the Spindash gives instant speed, but it's a pace breaker, except in SA1 where it's a Finger Breaker), you need to play well or you die or lose your speed.
It's also why I don't consider Frontiers a Boost game.
It's Boost doesn't damage enemies and traditional Stages are a side mode here.
Going fast with Maxed out Speed is fun though.
In my humble opinion Frontiers was the first game that made boosting fun precisely because it wasn't built entirely around the mechanic. It's a "go fast" button sure, but it's surrounded by all these other mechanics oriented around speed. Sometimes you want a burst of speed without having to curl into a ball, because balling up changes the way Sonic reacts to his environment. I honestly love the new, nerfed boost. Without that giant meter at the bottom of the screen you kinda forget about it until those moments where you really want it. Boosting is just another tool in the arsenal now, something specific that achieves a specific effect, not unlike the drop dash or homing attack. I will ALWAYS prefer momentum-based gameplay and the challenge involved in working up a head of steam, but as long as they offer the boost button I will be pressing it.
@@darkhorse744
Even a fully revved up spindash does not put the player anywhere near close to top speed, unlike the boost or sa spindash. Plus you had to come to a complete stop to even use it. Plus it put you in ball form, which limited control.
sa spindash is very similar to the boost however.
I can agree on Generations. But Unleashed? I disagree. Unleashed is too difficult to get it exactly perfect. They never give u the time to react on certain events because the camera zooms in on Sonic so closely and you'll barely have any chances of dodging things or couldn't find ways to do an trick or shortcuts. Not to mentioned collecting Sun & Moon medals to progress really kills the pacing for me and Sonic's controls are way too clunky.
@@darkhorse744That "pace breaking" with the Spin Dash? It's called a tradeoff. And if you're clever, you'll find ways to insta-stop yourself so you can immediately charge it up again. And the Spam Dash was never intended, and even then it still forces you to stop for a bit.
Those who say Project 06 has too much Automation probably have never played Sonic Forces.
Project 06 has basically just as much automation as Forces. But the thing that separates them is the non automated sections of P06 is actually really good whereas Forces never comes close to that due to the boring level design, shitty controls and awful physics that lack momentum
While it is fun and more rewarding to build up Sonic's speed than just boosting at the start, if it's to show us a set piece for the sake of spectacle, I have no problem with it. It's when holding a button to go fast or automatically going fast in all all you do that it becomes an issue. Case and point, Forces. Most of the other major titles use it sparingly enough for my tastes.
Agreed
Good punctuation, grammar, and vocabulary. I also agree with you.
*... Automatically going fast in all you do that it becomes an issue. (You have an extra 'all'.)
I agree, however I don't think Forces is the worst case of automation. Maybe in the case of the boost games, but I can still be somewhat captivated by the aesthetics and when the game actually attempts level design... it isn't half bad tbh (Except for Imperial Tower). I don't even think it was the main problem with Forces Level Design, but the pitifully short length was... then again I can't be too harsh on Sonic Team since they were starved of people and pressured to release in a year.
Worst case of Automation in Sonic as whole goes to Secret Rings as the entire game is a "Sonic 06 Mach Speed Section with Motion Controls and a brake button", and it's both fundamentally and functionally broken. Sure, I guess it doesn't "play itself", but what does it matter when it's struggle to basic platforming because Sonic can't stop, or I have to unlock BETTER CONTROLS as an upgrade?
If there's anything the Forces Remastered Mod shows to me, is if Sonic Team had more time and resources, I would say it would've been a good game instead of "Okay" (Not AS good as Unleashed or Generations, but certainly better than Colors tbh).
Secret Ring's Control work the best if the level design is on par with Luminous Forest or the ENTIRETY of Black Knight.
Not to mention that the visuals in Forces were actually pretty meh, so it wasn't even satisfying spectacle.
You barely get a tangible sense of speed compared to the other Boost titles, and when you do, it's because Sonic's fucking flying lmao
@@fansee1368 It doesn't help that the game's art style was pretty bad. From blocky objects ala Lost World to the ugliest possible Eggman Robot designs.
The orca set piece was part of the demo for the game back then and was a big reason so many people bought it
I think Sonic Unleashed is fundamentally very similar to classic Sonic. In classic Sonic you keep the momentum by avoiding obstacles, hazards and enemies. You can't build momentum if you get hit all the time. The same thing with Sonic Unleashed. You are only going through the stage fast and fluid if you don't get hit or fall from bottomless pits. The only difference is that in classic Sonic you have to use the spin dash to get to the top speed and game penalizes you by making you wait for the move to charge. When it comes to Unleashed, you have the boost the makes you go to the top speed instantly. However, you can't just boost , because if you don't play well you'll probably get hit or die seconds after that.
Plus "speed is a reward" still in Sonic Unleashed.
@@yoshihammerbro435 exactly
The problem with that is the level designs in the Daytime stages don't blend in very well. You'll have to be careful on how u approach this amount of speed cause they'll be something that you barely have time to react causing you to take damage or lose an life. And combined with trying to collect the Sun & Moon medals, dealing Sonic's wonky controls and other shenanigans the game throws at you, it's more frustrating rather than fun and I hate that.
It isn't. Unleashed, like other boost games, you just instantly get speed from pushing a button. The boost also defeats enemies, so they don't become obstacles to halt your momentum like in the classic games. Plus, Unleashed forces you to boost for numerous instances and punishes you for either not doing it or doing it.
@@SonicTheCutehog nah, even then, speed being a reward comes from traversing the stages faster. This is also the same as the classic sonic games. Plus, in both styles the way to "earn" the speed is by memorizing level layouts.
One big issue sonic games and a lot of other fast phased games have is that fast phased games get exhausting after a while, so there needs to be time to relax with less demanding sections. Doom eternal has long sections of slowly walking and easy platforming with barely no enemies between the big fights. Automated sections of Sonic games are that, but with extra spectacle. When it's overdone, it gets boring, but when there's a good balance of action and relax time, the game stays more enjoyable for a long time.
i agree with this take.
That's actually why I don't mind the treasure hunting stages in SA2 (except Security Hall, fuck that shit) too much, they're a nice break from the more action-oriented gameplay (again, except for Security Hall) where you just get to explore and just run around at your own pace for a bit.
@@rainpooper7088 Also the music on those stages goes hard too
Kinda similar actually with stuff like the Launch Stars in Mario Galaxy (though the game isn't usually that fast-paced to begin with but the "relax moments" principle still remains), when you think about it those are literally just completely automated spectacle moments (except when they troll you by sticking another launch star midway through its path). And yet, I've never had any problem with them whatsoever because they're nice little breaks in between the action that are often really cool to just watch too, and the key thing is they're not the core gameplay, there's several times more completely non-automated action between them so they end up being perfectly fine and harmless. Same could apply to Sonic automation if done well with enough real control and action between instances, but that ideal is what's often not achieved with Sonic and why it becomes a problem.
I disagree. There does not need to be time to relax built into games. I have a pause button. I have the ability to turn the game off for a bit and go do something else. I have no need for Doom Eternal's terrible platforming or Sonic Adventure 2's terrible treasure hunting stages. Just let me play the style of game I actually paid for, and I'll decide when I need time away to relax.
The people who say "Unleashed is boost to win" do not know what they're talking about. For anyone who's played it, I'm sure we can all agree that in Unleashed, if all you do is hold down the X button, you won't get very far. Speed is now given to you, but the challenge is maintaining it.
Same with Generations albeit to a lesser extent. Colors is more of it's own thing but the Boost is not intrusive and the 3D setpieces are really cool. Forces at least has good 2D sections that actually use the boost fairly strongly. Frontiers is a new type of level design with the Open Zone, but I really enjoy the Cyberspace levels. As for the open Zone itself, it's a blast to explore, and the 2D sections are underrated.
They look at the first few levels and completely forget this little thing called difficulty curve exists. Eggmanland and DLC levels are plenty hard.
@@ThePreciseClimber Jungle Joyride is brutal as well
@@ThePreciseClimber And even then you'll just hit Sonic's head into a rock if you just boost the moment you get any boost in the first level (because Unleashed also has you start levels with an empty boost gauge)
Looking back, I believe the reason Sonic Forces feels so automated is because a lot of the mechanics from the previous boost games (the drift, wall jump, slide, light speed dash, trick ramps, directional cannons, swingy poles) are either completely absent or underutilized. In theory, it doesn't play that much differently from past games, but in practice all you're really doing is boosting, jumping, and homing attacking with the occasional quick step section.
This is also why I don't agree with the argument of Sonic Frontiers being overly automated, because it actually brings a lot of these mechanics back while also adding occasional new ones, on top of having a more player-oriented gameplay loop.
Gotta say Unleashed actually LETS you play a very engaging level instead of "press X to win" . Sure Colors took the day stages that fans love but not the meat that actually made it good end up giving us a new thing to hate. Heck, even Frontiers still give us short easy stage like goddamn.
This is a reason I think Colors is super overrated, the short levels. Unleashed and Generations did day boost stages so much better
The stages in Frontiers are not the main draw, if they took as long as an Unleashed or Gens stage, they'd be far more annoying to complete.
@darkhorse744 nah, I'd argue it'd be more fun to complete with the exception by making it highly optional instead of mandatory. The ones we have were already annoying since some of it weren't even fun to play with Frontiers' new gameplay.
@@amarolidris4324 I disagree, there are over 30 Cyberspace stages and combine that with the Open-zone and Frontiers winds up far more bloated, if the stages were longer I probably wouldn't have bothered with them.
Also, it is optional, you can get keys from fishing, exploring the Open-zone and some randomly from killing enemies (iirc).
Cyber-space IS the best way of getting Vault Keys, no ifs or buts about it, but if you REALLY hate the stages, you absolutely don't have to do them.
Cyberspace with all of the speed tech like automation abuse which is maintaining momentum outside of automation sort of like riders bosst chaining so frontiers has boost chains and the spindash and also the new sliders combined with homing boosts and you get some insanely fun to replay stages all bitesized which is a good thing. Short stages>long stages that feel like a chore sometimes. @@darkhorse744
It's crazy to see footage from all these Sonic games back to back to back like this.
Especially 06. As someone who has not played either game, you can very CLEARLY see the improvements between the original and P06.
Game designer with a couple small projects under my belt here, I thought I'd weigh in something.
The point of automation is to sell the speed of Sonic, but also adhere to what we call The 30 second rule as well as prospect and refuge. The 30 second rule states the player every 10-30 seconds, the player should be changing up what they are doing to some extent to feel varied. Loops are meant to change up what's happening in the level and provide a moment of brevity to catch your breath. They also can serve as a transition to a part of a level that'd otherwise be awkward to design a pathway for for standard gameplay. Loops in 3D in Sonic games are quite literally, a brief action break, and a transition point. That's why they have custom cameras and automation to them.
In the case of prospect and refuge. In level design terminology, prospect is where the action happens, while moments of refuge are safe, catch your breath pockets of your level. usually checkpoints are refuge points.
Which is all to say, in 3D Sonic. Moments of automation:
- sell the speed, highly anime energy of Sonic.
- help get a player to a point in a flashy, in universe styled way
- provide a moment of rest from the action and can serve as a reward.
- be a safe moment for the player to get their barrings.
Also, in good game design, you should be able to see your character on screen at all times. Automated loops keep the camera on Sonic, and line you up to see your upcoming obstacles with ease.
Hope you all found this information helpful!
Very well put. This was satisfying to read! Thanks also for the game design lesson.
One thing I do like about Automation in Sonic games is that they can be a bit of a breather. Sometimes, there's be a tough part of the level that needs you to focus, and when you finally do it right, you get a short break before you move on to the next part. An example would be Rooftop Run Act 2 in Gen, where you have to platform in 2D that can be easy to mess up, but then you get to the end and now you're running up the clock tower. You still have to have great level design if you want to make the automation worth it and not annoying, but it's one thing I like that I don't hear a lot of people talking about.
Absolutely spot on.
Thing is, that can be achieved without automation. Instead regulate the challenge between different sections of a level.
Automatization in Sonic sucks, and no 06 apologist will gonna change that
@@roadkill_52 what
@@snakey888How? What if someone wants to rest their forearms?
It's crazy to me how common it is nowadays that literally any form of automation in a Sonic game can be this big of a deal to the fans, I get Forces cemented this but as long as automation is kept to a minimum and have great spectacles when they are there then it should be fine imo.
Honestly, it's one of the reasons why I can't stand the Sonic community, they always make a big deal of small issues.
@fdg2208 It's called attention to detail. If we stayed quiet and complacent, we'd end up like the Pokemon fandom or Mario who are happy when they get a new power up
@@hazelcrisp you do make fair point
Unrelated to your topic here but i love your Rawkhawk PFP. One of the best characters in the paper mario franchise. Still not a large fan of TTYD over 64 though. Also do you keep up with the modding communities cause if so are you excited for TTYD Hero Mode and Paper Mario 64 Star Nova?
@@hazelcrisp The problem is that if a game does something wrong they start looking at every single one to see if they do that exact same thing wrong too when a bad game is not supposed to reflect the state of a whole goddamn franchise
The clocktower sequence in sonic unleashed is the best argument on why automated setpieces in sonic are amazing!! Still gives me chills even to this day
In Sonic P 06, the automated sequences give you time to decide on your next gem. They give you a second to breathe without stopping the flow in my opinion
I think the thing you mentioned about skipping automated sequences in P-06 is actually something I personally like to apply to games that are often accused of being ruined by automation. My replay of Forces really opened my eyes to how much of the automation can be skipped with really skillful maneuvering, Metropolitan Highway in particular being a huge highlight of that. It's also made Frontiers even more enjoyable, with automated segments with stuff like rails having my mind racing on how to sequence break it. I don't really see most automation in Sonic as a wall to my enjoyment but as a puzzle to solve to maneuver with more efficiency.
"I don't think the appeal of Sonic was that it was a momentum puzzle box" Thank you! The classic Sonic games are so much more than just "earn your speed". Though I do like the description of going fast without taking damage, I think that can apply to all Sonic platformers.
J doesn't speak for all sonic fans, to me sonic simply going fast as a super power never appealed to me I perfer the momentum puzzle box game design more than speed = super power game design.
@@bluudevil4483 All the power to your opinion, but this outlook totally explains why I could never enjoy Sonic CD. I feel like the proper form is both. Some minor platforming sections, more that take advantage of Sonic's momentum, and high speed paths. Sonic 3 did this very well.
I hate Forces for causing this straight up unfair bias against the Boost.
When done right, the Boost is, in my opinion, super fun and a really cool part of the games (Unleashed, Generations, and Colors are all do it phenomenally).
The complaint of “Boost 2 Win” is complete bs, you literally get punished and can die if you just boost without paying attention. You need to use it smartly and react accordingly to the upcoming obstacles.
Oh wait… that’s exactly what the Spindash did for the longest time. You press a button and blitz through a part of the level, however, with proper timing and smart usage, you get rewarded with faster times and higher scores. If you just do it nonstop with reckless abandon, immune enemies or bottomless pits WILL punish you accordingly.
They are the same. exact. thing. One just presses down and X, while the other is the Square button. They both punish you for reckless usage, and have segments were even though you are allowed to do minimal inputs, you are show an amazing spectacle at the same time.
All the Genesis style games, INCLUDING MANIA, had segments where you could hold just hold down, get insane speed, and see Sonic go super fast and be rewarded. This series was built upon the idea of giving you a moment to just ENJOY watching Sonic go fast, and the boost games are no different.
I’m really tired of this retroactive, FALSE statement of “Boost 2 Win” when the Spindash, or just flat out holding down, has been doing the SAME exact apparent crime since the beginning of the series. Both do have moments where you do a single input, but the actual rest of the game requires you to KNOW how to utilize it for not only better times, but to also to react accordingly and get out of the way of hazards and obstacles as a result.
Eh
To add to this, you don't even have to hold down to roll in the classics, you only have to tap down.
Unleashed is even harder and faster if to take M-Speed and D-Speed into account
Ayo? 🤨
@@comedyreliefguy5112 I dunno, maybe it's like Ludicrous Speed from Spaceballs.
The Reason why I hate Forces
Reason why I hate colors
Both are the same
@@clasherinotheone5249 Colors is way way less automated. I played it rescently. Its actually fun💀 you cant just hold forward and win
@@clasherinotheone5249 they are not lmao your reaching
Colors is way more fun than forces bruh
As someone who's poured countless hours into Sonic Unleashed and it's DLC, I've always seen the "boost to win" talking point as a cheap, meaningless snipe from the armchair game dev-type fans who refuse to let the classic/adventure games go. The boost has it's place. Sonic has _always_ been able to blast off from nothing a la Sonic CD cutscenes, and Unleashed showed that it makes for a phenomenal one-of-a-kind gameplay experience. These are the same people who complain that Sonic is so fast you can't react to anything. It doesn't make any sense. Thanks a million for this video.
😂
I was playing Frontiers with my fianceé loking at my screen, first time that she is seeing modern sonic gameplay. She commented how it sometimes felt and looked like a Rhythm game, and yes, pretty much it is.
Homming attack in chain, take rail, jump, dodge, it's like an athletic game
Not everything tho
J never misses with his sonic opinions. He knows exactly what I’m thinking when it comes to community debates or general opinions on the series. Keep up the good work man.
I’ll always have a soft spot for Palmtree Panic’s giant loop. The first Sonic set-piece I ever experienced. And the cool tunnel tubes in the same level as well.
It would be hilarious if all automaton had an easy way to skip with no consequences that even beginners can utilize. If it did, I wonder how it'll affect the length of many different Sonic games.
I think it becomes a problem when theres too much automation, the biggest example is Forces with its infamous level, Luminous Forest (or whatever its called, its been awhile since i played the game)
Although Sonic P-06 does include Automated Sections, I appreciate that it's possible to skip some of them when speedrunning and where they can't be skipped, they provide a brief moment of respite before a speedrunner regains control and continues the run. For beginner players, automated sections let them enjoy high speed spectacle with very little effort but I agree that games like Sonic Forces suffer from overusing automated sections.
Honestly people really just be looking for any excuse to invalidate P06 just because they don't want to play it.
If something was unsalvageable projects like that wouldn't exist, it's fine you can still acknowledge something had genuine potential but came out rough in the official release.
Yeah...
I'm honestly surprised that Frontiers wasn't really brought up at all. While the open areas have a lot in terms of traversal options, nearly every little gameplay area is packed with dash pads and rails and bumpers. It relies on locking you into a dash pad section to get you around the floating platforming sections so often that it becomes a little silly. They don't take control away for long, but I think it does it much more often than previous games in the series. It feels like they weren't confident in sonic's ability to maneuver small platforms and thin lines so they just put dash pads everywhere.
And, if I may continue off of your comment with which I agree fully, there's such an excess of ways to get locked into an automated segment that can take anywhere from 10 seconds to a full minute to complete!
I really struggled with doing things in the right order in Frontiers. I found myself naturally defaulting to going against the flow constantly. This also meant constantly running into dash panels that were going the wrong way and getting sent what felt like half way across whatever part of the island I was on before I even got a chance to jump and cancel what was happening. If the dash panels and 2D segments didn't take away my ability to get out of them and continue on my merry way so often, I'd enjoy them a lot more.
That being said, I absolutely love boosting through the environments of Frontiers, figuring out new ways to accomplish tasks or reach areas that Sonic Team didn't intend. But the automation seriously ground by rails sometimes.
The new Koco challenges in Update 2 and Update 3 Ouranos in general pretty much just prove that all the automaton is completely unnecessary.
I really think this is a discussion that should have happened a long time ago
Nice!
Roller Coaster setpieces can add visual flair and contribute to the pace of speed stages.
They should be used sparingly when they have a cool thing to get you to see.
Like swinging on the vines, taking a rail, boosting through a chase.
Sonic needs big stages for his speed, but platforms and hazards even in 3D make him fun.
Should not conflate spectacle with automation.
@@snakey888 If you wanna show me a sick setpiece without any chance of a dropped controller or remembering it as an irritating surprise rather than a cool one, start it with automation. A hazard can be added to a lot of setpieces, and I’m sticking with my laurels that it can be beneficial to use automation in this way as introductory or to invite visual and breath-catching feedback as long as it doesn’t consume the stage it’s in.
@@runningoncylinders3829
There are plenty of cool set pieces where no automation is used. A great example is the beginning of Chamical plant zone act 2, a huge downward slope with a ramp at the end.
If you have good physics, and competent level design, no automation is needed.
@@snakey888 That beginning section is literally just a straight line, effectively just dead air.
@@wildberrysherbert3803
?? In the beginning of cpz 2 there are some slopes, a ramp and then a long downward slope ending with another ramp. Usually a player will gain a lot of speed going down the slope, and then be launched into the air off the ramp.
It's really good they're people out there fixing Sonic 06 to make it better
6 years agoThKazeblade made a video called Essential Elements of Sonic. It's worth checking out and still holds up. One of his points was that automation should augment, not override. He said that the correct use of automation could be seen with Sonic 2's boost pads since they don't take away control from the player and require skill to fully utilize. In Chemical Plant, you can use the boost pad and time a jump afterward to skip the elevator climb. THAT, is good automation.
I find it funny how people were saying unleashed played itself, then forces comes out and everyone stays silent lol
Who stays silent about forces lol read the top comments
You make a good point about automation being a part of Sonic for a while, I guess it depends on how it's handled. I think 2D Sonic tapping his foot cause he's waiting for a platform to move is cute, 06 Sonic bouncing between points while upsidedown is just bad lol
One underappreciated aspect of automation is that it gives the player a momentary break from the constant action. When you're grinding out those A or S ranks, the little gaps help you readjust.
P-06's problem isn't automation, it's level design and game mechanics. P-06 might be infinitely better than Sonic 06 but you're still playing a whole game based entirely around the homing attack. Boost games at least have the luxury of cycling through mechanics, sometimes you're boosting, sometimes you're tricking, sometimes you're homing. With P-06 you're always homing (or you're in a mach speed section).
Sonic 06 has more of an emphasis on combat and platforming compared to SA1 and 2. It’s why I think it’s still a step down from those games.
I thought I was the only one that noticed this. I’ll never get why people say 06 had the best level design in the series when you aren’t doing much besides homing attacking and all the speed you gain is from dash panels
"P-06 might be infinitely better than Sonic 06"
goddamm cancerous toxic shit fanbase i swear... YOU LTERALLY ARE LEECHING OFF AN ALREADY RELEASE PRODUCT YOU ENTITLED FUCKS AND IT'S NOT EVEN FINISHED
@@Liltracysintern funny how everybody forgets "can't walk to the right" boost shit in "can't even platfform/jump properly due to wacky slippery speed" in boost games, but choose to shit on adventure-like stages instead
@@kero232 I never said the boost level design was perfect either, the only one I really like is gens.
I think Sonic 06 was the first game in the series to be heavily criticised for automated sequences & in turn people who liked the game defended it by pointing out all the past & present games that have automation & in turn has caused a massive debated topic in the franchise that, especially when you’re outside the community, really isn’t that big of an issue.
This has been the elephant/hedgehog in the room for decades now. Props to you for making a video on it.
The games feel great…until you actually play them. 😂❤
Something I noticed is that after forces every boost game started to be summarized as "you hold a button and the game plays itself".
Like, seriously? Have you played any games besides Forces?
Boost is about dodging obstacles very quickly, and the stages even have alternative paths. Bosst has a different proposal than any other Sonic or platformer gameplay style, but that doesn't make it bad.
The problem isn't the gameplay concept, the problem is how it's executed. After all, platformers are ultimately about pressing to one side, holding a button to run, while jumping across platforms and dodging obstacles.
I mean, is automation that seamlessly transitions between gameplay segments somehow worse than the cinematic cutscenes that interrupt gameplay in so many games? How many times have I played a game that cuts to a 5-15-30 minute expository movie that gets the game nominated for awards?
2D Sonic: Learn to navigate stages quickly through experience and reflexes
Recent 3D Sonic: Hold boost
Congratulations, you missed the entire point of the video
I've always thought that the automated set pieces of a Sonic game are a nice breather. If the Classic games were exclusively momentum puzzle boxes, as you put it, or the boost games were constant action akin to DMC or a rhythm game, it would get tiring fast. If every level in a Sonic game was stages where I have to be on my toes actually constantly with no breaks, it would be like making a game filled with Eggmanlands, and I don't think anyone actually wants that. It should be used as a means of letting the player take a breath for a few seconds, not as a replacement for engaging gameplay.
I absolutely share your opinion: Automation Parts are a great Setpeace which only purpose is, to wow the player, but you forgot to tell how S3K managed to transition betweet Speed Segments and Plattforming Segments like in Hydrocity Zone Act 2 with fans which are placed at the end of a Speed Segment, so the Player can start focusing on the Plattforming again. But still a really nice Video with many great Clips to show off, how great the Games looks like 👍
Have you tried Spark 3? What you said about P06 reminded me of my experience with it. The level design is just fantastic
The automation discussion has always been frustrating to me for all of the stated reasons. Imagine if Mario fans complained about the Launch Stars in Mario Galaxy sending you from planetoid to planetoid rather than expecting you to grav your way to each of em for example.
Of people complaining about the plessie sections.
automation is a tool of game design and spectacle has always been a part of Sonic. The issue just comes down to how it is implemented into the game.
another instance of a video coming out earlier than it was supposed to be
Ong, Unleashed’s stage design for every act kinda requires you to react mad fast to obstacles and platforms the other games just do not have
Unleashed’s skill ceiling is basically learning the level design, learning how to do certain actions in quick reaction times to get the best fastest time and also trying to get an S rank
I have never liked grind rails in Sonic games. They're "just watch the game play itself" at best and "we didn't code jumps to snap from rail to rail, so you're going to fall off the stage and die" at worst. It got better in later games when you could just tap a shoulder button to switch rails, but ultimately I still find it incredibly boring.
The only other automation in Sonic games that has truly bothered me is boosters placed everywhere to make up for bad level design and physics **coughDIMPScough**
I'm sure I could come up with some examples in some stages in some games if I were sitting down and playing them in the moment. Places where eventually the game has stopped be from playing for so long that I get annoyed and say "ENOUGH ALREADY, LET ME PLAY" out loud to no one. But I have moments like that in many games outside the Sonic franchise, too. Sometimes games just go overboard with not letting us play them, and it's obnoxious. If I wanted a "break" I would press the pause button, stop building this crap into games please.
5:47 - Yeah that's a great example of an "ENOUGH ALREADY!!!" moment. I hate those weird tubes in Death Egg Zone. I make it a point to avoid activating those wherever possible, because I don't want to be stuck in the stupid tube for several seconds. I'd rather just navigate the stage below, thank you very much.
Never thought I'd see J play a Mario game. I don't know why, but it just made me laugh seeing him play one since I didn't think he was into Mario.
Nice pfp
@@mint_1919 Hey, thank you!
@@mint_1919clean asf isn’t it
@@Itz_Kwame My pfp? Yeah, it's pretty good.
Automation is fine if it's sparse and serves as a quick bit of recovery during gameplay. Completing "Sonic Adventure 2" on Dreamcast was very challenging, sometimes my thumb would slowly begin to slip off the analogue stick due to how often I had to quickly flick it in certain directions for successful play. Having small moments of automation allows the player to quickly recover (removing any thumb sweat, for example) before getting back in action. Without those bits of breathing room, getting A ranks in the speed stages might have taken me longer playtimes and more frequent re-tries.
Overall, they're fine for enjoyable spectacle and purposeful recovery.
Sonic Adventure 2 sucks
@@roadkill_52Agree to disagree.
Forces and Frontiers are so guilty of automation being all there is, Forces level design is just pretending to be cool but it isn't because you're not doing anything, Frontiers combat and it's way of collecting shit through dash pads and springs also makes the game feel unfulfilling.
I’ve seen people complain about Spark 3 being too automated, man, even comparing it to Forces in such a way. Which is insane! Like, that’s a point where you’re thinking with buzzwords instead of complete sentences.
Spark 3 is as automated as classic Sonic games. You still have full control over Spark but I wish there were less dash panels near loops
@@joe_mama__automation with sonic you are locked into splines and can't move, spark gives the player options to jump and change direction during moments of hitting dash pads and springs.
ChaosX is a genuine national treasure, God bless his heart
People argue over fans liking Sonic cause of speed or momentum but can't people like both?
The worst thing about the automated sections of 06 / P-06 is that you don't have any control in most of them. Once that automation starts when you take loops or scripted paths, you can't jump out of the loops midway like you could in the Adventure games, you can't spin dash (or blue gem) to speed up the automation like you could in the Adventure games, you can't spin dash jump to completely skip the loop entirely like you can for a lot of the loops in Adventure 1.
06 is really bad when it comes to this. P-06 in theory does improve on this as there are certain new tricks you can use with the reworking of the physics, the spin dash and the gems that allow you to skip sections but there's still the issue of no control when that automation kicks in. And because you're able to do all the non-automated sections so much faster than retail, the better you get at the game, the bigger proportion of your time is going to be spent in the automation. I really hope that Chaos improves this. Sonic and Shadow's stories are really impacted by this. I still really enjoy P-06 but this is a big issue the game has imo. There are not as many tricks you can do to skip automation and what tricks there are are essentially only possible if you can really speedrun these levels and very few people are actually going to do this. Rail grinding is another part that really needs improving in P-06 too imo. Yes, you can jump off the rails and skip a lot of these sections but the rail grinding is still too slow imo
Adventure is as bad as 06. Both are very cringe worthy games
@@roadkill_52 Umm no. Adventure actually plays good. 06 is awful in terms of gameplay, control etc
@@MysticClaws100Shh. You'll upset the purist.
I think the answer to this question is that automation is good when it complements and elevates the gameplay, and its bad when it replaces it. It's an bonus to the gameplay, not the content itself
One way to look at it as well, is that the OG Sonic games did a lot of automation that felt natural to the point that you kinda forget its automatic at all. Like you get springs everywhere, and you can move around in the air after jumping on one, but then there are times were the spring launches you into a tunnel that locks you in its path until it ends. That is automated, but it's something you are used to using not automated and is short enough that you don't really think about it much. Another way this applies is that a lot of automated sections appear natural because it looks like something you can already do. You know with enough speed that Sonic can run around the loops, so when something launches you through one, its automated but you could have done that on your own as well. Heck, it being automated may be the game telling you its possible in the first place so that you can try it out on non-automated ones. Since some levels might have a fast path that is only possible to go through at a certain speed, meaning you have to skillfully navigate the level to gain and keep that speed.
Meanwhile the new games so obviously use automation to do things the developers couldn't figure out how to do naturally. Like all loops are automated now because the physics are too wonky for it to work without it being essentially a cutscene. Or the physics don't really allow Sonic to actually gain speed outside of his default run speed, but the boost pads automatically put you at higher speeds to pretend that you are going faster through progress, but then have to be automated because the gameplay isn't designed for those speeds. Even the ones that do allow for gameplay, use different gameplay to adjust for that new speed, since the player otherwise would never achieve it enough to get used to it, so they have to make it easier so its accessible. 2D sonic could have a boost section that puts you at full speed the whole time, and still wouldn't need to change the gameplay because a player who is good at the game is already used to going at that speed, even if for a short time, naturally and therefore could control Sonic with some precision.
Relatable for me . Especially with auto run of secret rings and the base sonic 06
Bro the end of this video is just J shilling P-06 and I love it!
it made me chuckle when you said runtime in relation to sonic unleashed, 9:18 thanks J, very cool!
I don't know how people complain about prolonged near-automated level segments and don't talk about Sonic Mania. Mania has a lot of fairly lengthy sections you can get through just holding down.
Speed is a power you can use, it shouldn't be auto pilot.
The thing is that all parts you are looking forward to, even on P06 are the parts that aren't the automated ones. On a casual level i prefer engaging with the game and if there is no engagenent i'm out. Now what you consider automation may not be what i consider automation because some gameplays had something to do even if you could boost through enemies but as soon as i don't interact with the game and just press one button i consider that automation because it has no variance.
I still think Silver in P-06 was made way too overpowered & he was pretty much perfect the way he was before he was given insane stat boosts.
4:18 It's actually supposed to be a loop! Idc about correcting people, I just think it's cool to know about
I always thought the alternative routes in sonic games would make a good video topic
I both like and dislike automated parts of sonic games. I like them because it shows of the stage and usually cool stuff happens, but I also dislike them because of there is no way of skipping some of them and trying to complete time trials and going through them over and over again makes them tedious, making me just sit there looking at the timer hoping I will make it in time.
My only problem with the automation/spectacle 3D Sonic in general is that its gimmicks usually result in very unnatural changes in momentum and rely on binary states. Gimmicks by nature restrict the character's movesets, but in the classic games, how you start and stop interacting with a gimmick influenced its outcome. In modern Sonic, most gimmicks automatically correct your orientation and either give you a fixed speed or you hit a sweet spot for an artificial boost in speed/distance, instead of having a continuous range of outcomes.
I know it is not fair to compare 2D to 3D gameplay directly since moving in 3 dimensions is a lot more complex. Mario famously moved away from enemy-centric level design because stomping on three dimensional Goombas was hard, so some level of automatic guidance is necessary for Sonic to keep its gimmick-based level design, but I wish that artificial guidance was seen more of a concession to get around and make it look as natural as possible rather than something desirable for the sake of simplifying 3D complexity.
If you want a sonic-esque indie game that has literally ZERO automation in it just play Spark The Electric Jester 2/3 🙇🏽
J uploaded! Everything is right with the world everyone!
I needa see a remade night palace, fricken love that stage
I think what fans continually fail to understand is that we need some automation in sonic games, just not an over-abundance of it like in forces.
Forces is not really more automated than Colors and Lost World especially levels like Starlight Carnival act 1
@@xamp_exclammark no forces was very overautomated. Yes, colours has a bit more automation than most sonic games, but it still didn't have an overabundance of it. Take lost valley: the level is about 1:10- 1:20, about 49 of seconds, is automated and about 9-10 seconds boosting in a straight line. The automation in starlight carnival act 1 was clearly done to show off the beauty of the surroundings, whereas in forces it was just pure laziness.
Your recent sponsorships are amazing. It’s actually things I think are cool. Unlike manacaped or something a razor works just fine for that. In the 3ds sonic video with that gaming pillow and these sick GameCube controllers. I had no idea these even existed and now I’m tempted to buy them…
I've also been really tempted by the Nyx Wizard, since I love the GameCube controller a lot with my small hands. After watching a few reviews, however, the lack of analogue triggers and the somewhat larger size has kept me away from it.
The problem with boost never was the mechanic itself, but rather the lack of restraint once we arrive at Forces and no obstacles to avoid or skips to pull off.
This is why SRB2 is practically the best 3D Sonic. The skill-based precision platforming is simply sublime and works great with both controllers and traditional keyboard and mouse controls for FPS games.
The S tube in Green hill 1 isn't really automated, seeing as it still takes takes your speed and momentum into consideration, and can be traversed from both directions.
Compare that to sa1 and forward, where things like loops are now scripted to provide a set speed, trajectory and pathing. It's on a whole different level. Even springs completely override momentum and launch you into a set direction.
In general, automation removes player agency, lowers the skill ceiling and makes for an overall more shallow, boring experience. It's an issue that modern Sonic games continue to suffer from, and holds the series back from achieving greatness.
Automated sections, Spectacle segments, and Boosting (as a mechanic) were never inherently bad. As this video points out, they've always existed to some extent throughout the series. The issue is when these elements are used as a crutch in substitute for weak or uninteresting level design. Which is my biggest beefs with many Boost formula levels and some other Sonic games.
To showcase Sonic's speed, yes, Sonic Team likes to lean into these elements. As a safe and guaranteed way to make a level feel exciting or show off a nice set piece. But the reason this approach grew so tiring is because they began to either slack hard in the actual fully controlled segments of games, or in the case of Forces... had little actual controlled segments to offer at all.
I get so peeved when Boost gameplay is called "the peak of 3D Sonic", because there's few moments where you'll get that fully 3D control. Yes, you'll get your reaction based obstacle segments... but will soon be thrown into 2D gameplay that is inferior to the 2D gameplay in the Classics or even some of the handheld games. It just feels thrown together sometimes to extend the illusion of the 3D segments actually letting you do some cool things.
NOT to say games like Unleashed & Generations have nothing worthwhile in their 3D segments at all, because its not true. They can have some great set pieces with a good amount of control.
It's just as the games continued... obviously stuff like the 2D sections and long stretchs of empty boost roads got even worse lol. So it just made me feel more bitter to it.
And again, that's not to say the other formulas were immune to this issue. Because they weren't. But those formulas HAVE to feature more level design with actual thought into it naturally. Its far more noticable if not otherwise.
But that's just for Sonic himself, obviously if we're talking some of the other characters and their unique playstyles... they have their own rabbit holes. But that's just my two cents.
Imo, sometimes spectacle works, but it shouldn't be used as a shortcut to beating the game.
We need some bits of automation because we wouldn't be able to control biblically accurate sonic
Ermm... play Spark the Electric Jester 3
I was fine with automation in games like SA2, Unleashed, Colors, Generations, even ones like 06 and Lost World cause I still felt like I was in control of Sonic or whoever I was playing as, I felt like my inputs mattered whether it was building up my speed in the classics and SA2 or keeping up my speed in Unleashed, Forces is the exact opposite of that cause I swear I could literally put the controller down, press square (cause I have Forces on PS4), and watch Sonic just get to the end of the stage no problem, there’s no challenge of reacting to obstacles in time to keep up your speed like in Unleashed it’s legitimately boost to win, and meanwhile Frontiers feels like it’s in a bit of a weird middle ground where I definitely feel like my inputs matter like in other games a good chunk of the time, but the automation wasn’t too much of a problem for me unless it felt like there was an abundance of it (looking at you Chaos Island)
Roboblast 2 is still my most favourite sonic games in years
Im still watching the video but I have to say that S3 AIR did a cool thing with one of its achievements: Getting ALL the rings ar the Ice Cap 1 intro requires you to take the right paths and jumping at the right time in a few moments, so it actually makes this cool demo double as a mini challenge for paying attention and then ...retrying over and over until tou get it right lol
3:01 same people also claim that SA and SA2 took the classic philosophy. i actually don't hear this as much from classic fans as i do adventure fans and both statements don't work when you fundamentally understand what spindash is and the amount of automation that was used int eh classic games as well and also know how automated a lot of adventure game levels are too.
So the difference is obstacle balance.
Sonic 06: obstacles are too unfair
Sonic forces: no obstacles
Sonic unleashed: obstacles that respect speedy gameplay and are fair and balanced
Swap out 06 with Advance 2 and I'd agree.
This video was really fun, but ngl I was left confused by the P06 portion at the end.
Using skips/speedrunning/post 100% completion items as a way of explaining why the automation in P06 is fine because you can "just skip them" really falls flat considering you can do this to every Sonic game.
I do not think, besides in Sonic Forces, that there is a single unavoidable automated section in a Sonic game. Even the very first one in S1, you can just jump at any point and try to keep up the momentum from the pipes. Besides, most of P06 skips and speedrunning strats are mainly just happy accidents born from reusing 06's assets and level design and putting them in a new engine. The level design is like the one thing that was barely touched in P06, so really you can make an argument that 06 also barely has automation since you can just install a mod that fixes up the character movement and do similar skips. Anyway, this was way longer than i wanted it to and its like 3 am so i am pretty sure this will be a grammar and punctuation massacre, but I just wanted to put it out there.
Also also, Frontiers actually does the P06 thing anyway. Making up dumb ass routes to get the most tokens/items possible without say touching the island grounds is some of the most fun I personally had in a Sonic game. Rail launching to skip the little tower 2D gauntlet in Chaos Island made me feel like a god for example, so I totally get where you were going with the P06 point, but that portion is less analytical and VERY subjective. P06 didn't click for me in that fashion but Frontiers did, and the opposite is true in your case, so I think that skipping/player skill that makes you skip automation is mainly irrelevant when discussing whether automation is a bad/good thing because it all depends on whether or not you enjoy the game enough to endlessly replay it like you did with P06, like I did with Frontiers and what many others did with the classic games.
The Whale Chase in Emerald Coast is unavoidable.
People who complain about unleashed automation havent tried the challenges of the second half of the game
Or only played the first level
ive never liked spectacle/railroady mechanics in games. Any time i'm spending not playing the game where it isnt a cutscene driving the story forward, i get bored.
if theyre just trying to wow me with the stage gimmick or show how fast sonic is, then they may as well jingle keys in front of my face while theyre at it lol. and to top it off, i think i like it even less when they try and give you partial control, like those weird wall-jump platforms from SA1, like what are they doing? that feels significantly more boring when compared to regular gameplay, its not what i signed up for lol
i dont think having those things necessarily hurts a sonic game for me, i get that people like the spectacles, or that it breaks up the gameplay from being 100% the same the entire time, but it still kinda feels like a copout to me.
For example take spark the electric jester 3. That game has a mode where you pilot a flying car and shoot at enemies who fire back on you in turn. That's a whole _new_ style of game with lots to do. But then it also has a level gimmick where you grab onto this like... jet-rail thing, where you hang off this machine that goes down a hanging rail line, and your goal it to swing out of the way of obstacles and... thats it. Just rotate the joystick and dont get hit until you reach the end of the rail. it feels very one dimensional to me, but it only showed up like twice. There are other gimmicks to speak of, but they were so few and far between that i did not care. Most of the spectacles were in the cutscenes where they belonged imo.
i guess that makes me a "less automation = better" kind of person, and while not all sonic games are designed to have the leeway to give the player that much freedom, i still think the game is worse for it imo. In any game i play, unless it is explictly dialogue and story focused like a visual novel, i'm going to dislike automation. but hey maybe thats just me
Automatic set pieces never bothered me much in Sonic 3&K because you don't typically play those old games to beat your best time.
When you're just exploring the level at your own pace, setting down the controller for a few seconds isn't such a big deal, plus the levels are open enough for you to skip over a lot of those boosters/launchers/swings/spinners/etc.
But when you're trying to shave one second off of your record or you're just trying to get an S rank, you're replaying the same stage over and over and those things become agonizing. Especially at the very start or end or a level when you have to just let the time tick up with no way to make it go by any faster, waiting until you get to actually play for real, or get to finally see your final time.
When generations came out i couldnt believe people liked the lack of controls and 3d movement.
Ok, so automation has always been in Sonic's DNA. But what if it was taken out? Would that not make way for something better?
Sonic GT has joined the chat.
Shadow Generations gameplay requires you to just hold forward to win lol
since were on the topic on Sonic. are you going to review Team Sonic Racing, Sonic Speed Simulator and Murder Of Sonic The Hedgehog at some point?
16:16 I gotta give that a try 💯 nice videos as always J
Nobody complains about Slingstars in Mario Galaxy or Ultimate Technique chains in Ninja Gaiden II
this video really helped me figure out what my porblem with the boost games is, and also why I disagree with you about them: its because the controls and the resulting level designs feel stiff and uninteresting, sonic just doesnt have the flow he does in the adventure style games or the classic games and the levels also feel really limited as they are designed around that, I dont really mean in terms of automation I more just mean how the level feels to play. I think generations did the best job in adressing this but it still doesnt fully solve it. For me, the fun of sonic is getting that flow down, and in the boost games I feel sluggish and weighed down, and I think that really undermines what makes sonic fun.
Hello J! I was wondering if you’d re-review Sonic Frontiers after update 3 comes out