Super interesting insight into the game! I really hope they continue to support it and release some extra factions, I could not resist investing into some tiny custodes and mechanicus units I also hope that after this tournament some errata will be released, just to get some rules clarification in etc Looking forward to more LI content!
That list looks like about as much fun to play against as a smack to the bollocks to be honest. Glad I didn't go! Also that guy's wallet must have been screaming.
Even if the player is fun, this list would create an interactive game only against an opponent that's just as WAAC. And WAAC in this game looks silly and samey. I don't think I want to do what it takes to match the extreme spam and force mix in alpha legion with everything I do just to have a chance of winning. I don't think LI is a good game for being played WAAC, it's too poorly balanced. Maybe after enough balancing it could become one, but today it just isn't. I think we as a community need to be good at keeping eachother in check to avoid the heavy skew and spam of the things that are too effective or broken. We've done well in AT18. This, this breaks my heart.
An issue that further compounds skew lists working a little too well is that they're not just playing to the current balance of unit types with infantry being largely the winners, the game currently does nothing to mitigate how many formations one can field, and in turn how many detachments/activation an army will have. That gets compounded by a format with only 3 hour rounds. I feel like the terrain meta has to evolve a bit to reign in infantry, if that means defining some area terrain as difficult to all unit types then so be it, infiltrate needs a hard limit on how many detachments get to do it. I really think there are quality of life changes, simple ones that could be made that boos the enjoyment equally for matched play or narrative. People often hand wave away any discussion of rules fixes as if that something only on the "competitive" side, when really plenty of the changes objectively benefit both kinds of gaming. Not to beat a dead horse but, the problem of infinite infiltrate is just as much a problem if not contained for a narrative game as it is for a tournament. What good is coming up with a cool board and scenario about taking bridges along the center of the board if players can just already be on the other side of the river 4 inches from each other's deployments. Thanks for posing this mattie, it was interesting to watch.
@OldenDemon a surefire way to get an official kit announced is me to make a huge expensive kitbash of it. It’ll be announced before the video uploads #sodslaw
I'll be honest, the meta this guy plays into feels like utter misery. Cycle of spamming the most nonsense stuff. Like there's no point that I am ever going to paint up that many missile launchers.
It´s obvious that missile launchers are op at the moment, more if you compare them with their plasma alternative. But spamming them that way in a game with so many different units just speaks on itself.
Must admit, I’d much rather play balanced, multi arm forces games. A bit of infantry, some walkers, tanks and flyers. A knight or two and a titan. Our group also plays with ‘one legion’ lists. Fluffy!
@@LItbashing The main issue is that Legions is just... not a very well balanced game. Breaking it is easy (but expensive in time and money). Of the competitive games I play, Legions doesn't really compare on balance or tightness of the rules. Legions is fun for the spectacle and narrative. Not really the competition.
The level of disparity between the legion rules is disheartening. I mean, I'm still going to keep playing with my Thousand Sons armoured company, but seeing how utterly dominating Alpha legion are is quite upsetting.
thank you so much for this talk it really opens my eyes on some of the more tactical decisions that are made in this game. Love the channel and keep up the great work.
Depends on the context - tournament play exists and narrative play exists. Whilst tournament play exists, you can’t blame the players for making the best lists for those tournaments.
@@LItbashing Eeehhh whilst I grasp the difference in play formats and mentalities, if those lists are unimaginative and IMO take advantage of rules quirks/subpar rules themselves I just don't feel they should be lauded.
Appreciate the interview and the insight but a player clearly stating they play blood angels and imperial fist but built and painted an entire new legion just for the event is WAAC, and comes off as a little disingenuous suggesting he didn’t know the list was strong, clearly bs. WAAC players should stick to 40K in my opinion.
Ah I wouldn't discount the las tarantula. If you're going only titans and infantry, you might find your warmaster lose 6 shields as soon as the game starts if you have no screening vehicles. That's a cheap investment for taking away one of the Titan's signature advantages.
The competitive lists where they are all skewed remind me why I strongly dislike going to tournaments and dislike competitive players in general in these types of games. List had no thought to the background and is just spamming the best stuff to WAAC. Hope this person/approach is an exception and not the norm and is contained to ultra competitive events, otherwise I can’t see ever playing in any events. These types of players seeping over from 40K into 30k narrative events really ruin it for all the other narrative driven players.
@@LItbashing I get that from a modeling and painting perspective he put in a lot of work, which I can respect, but that is not a narrative list. I have not seen where in the fluff there was an army that looked like this at all. Painting and Conversions does not equal fluff and background. Also him being friendly does not equal fluff and background. The dude has 2x as many missile toting marines as regular tacticals. He’s got 2x as many dreadnoughts as he has tacticals. Where in any book/novel is that considered true to the background and lore….I call BS on that, sorry. Him saying that he had no idea this army would do well is pretty disingenuous. It’s the same thing you hear in HH from folks taking Fury of the Ancients or a bunch of Sunkillers etc. and then saying “Oh I had no idea that taking tons of powerful undercoated stuff in a skew list would be strong!” Please…at least be honest.
I don't think you can blame the player. Being WAAC is nothing like trying to bring a good list, and the problem is that even in narrative events people tend to take more competitive lists than they want to for fear of others doing the same (back when I played 40k at tournaments the narrative events were the worst ones for this). The real problem is that a good rule set would mean that competitive lists ARE narrative lists, because the armies that fought in the lore were trying to win at all costs. Why did the legions have so many tactical marines if they were narratively as bad as the rules make them? Because they are not; and we should get the rules to reflect that.
@@AcheronBlade The Hydras Fist was a Mixed Battlegroup formed out of necessity during the pacification of the Zion system when the Imperial Fist Strike Cruiser "Dauntless Might" was destroyed during the initial push into the system. Most of the Imperial Fist escaped the destruction and deployed to the planet sending out a distress signal and going about their mission to pacify the outer planet. it was the Alpha legion of the 333rd Expeditionary force that replied to the distress call coming to the aid of the imperial fists and the two forces proceeded to complete the mission of pacifying the system together. it was on the return that they received word of Horus's betrayal and the alpha legion onboard were enraged when they heard that their brothers had sided with the renegade warmaster and under the watchful eyes of the imperial fist vowed loyalty to the emperor. when the force reappeared in real space the imperial fists vouched for the loyalty of the alpha legion and the Imperial fist commander was given command of the battleforce and was made custodian of the alpha legion their actions would hang on his neck and be his responsibility. this is just a little excerpt of the fluff written for the battleforce, i have a couple of pages of it including formation names and character names and stuff :)
The LI events I like ask players to keep their competitive urges at home. It leads to a greater variety in legions and compositions, fun and light games for new players and veterans alike. Tactics and skill and winning still matter, but nobody would get crished for spamming just a bit less. I don't feel this list would be remotely acceptable. I applaud this player's hobby and love for his army.
Works in two ways. 1) during the heresy any legion can be taken as loyalist or traitor. No legion was entirely one or the other. 2) Alpha Legion of all the legions are renowned for playing a loooong game. Like, so long no one else can comprehend it. Some say they’re so loyalist that they realised siding with Horus was the only way to ensure he would ultimately be defeated in a Doctor Strange holding up the one finger at the end of Infinity War kinda way. Or the opposite but for the Emperor. They are tricksy, tricksy legionnaires very much on their own agenda.
@@LItbashing Although true fluff wise, the LI rules do not support this. As per RB: " An Army that has the Loyalist Allegiance may not include any Formations or Detachments that contain models with the Traitor special rule and an Army with the Traitor special rule may not include any Formations or Detachments that contain models with the Loyalist special rule." Apha Legion Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita. Any tournament rules that overruled this?
As per RB - page 136: “A player can declare their Formations are drawn from any Legion, regardless of the Army’s Allegiance - though certain Legions sided with the Emperor or the Warmaster, it was not unknown for disparate elements to go against the will of their Primarch and choose a different path during the Horus Heresy. The only restrictions are UNITS that are specifically Loyalist or Traitor (see the Loyalist and Traitors special rules in the Special Rules section).” - ‘traitoris perdita’ is fluff. Not a unit keyword. You can take Fallen Dark Angels or Tarvitz’ loyalist Emperor’s Children and any mix.
@@LCanilho it’s key to Heresy. At 28mm and 8mm every legion can be taken as loyalists or traitors because it wasn’t clear cut. Heck the very first conflict of the Heresy - Isstvan III - was mostly World Eaters versus World Eaters, some loyalist some traitor (and death guard, emperor’s children and sons of Horus the same). The burning of Prospero was the Space Wolves following Horus’ orders and the Thousand Sons trying to warn the Emperor of the heresy. The 31st millennium wasn’t black and white. That’s the whole point.
Automated sentry is also an "activation" in the movement phase. If it ends that activation in contact with a transport, it can get in. Or more specifically, it can get BACK in after the transport drops it off during ITS movement activation. Tarantulas have a move of 9" and two armor saves.
Interesting… so if you can drive a rhino to it, then activate its guns, it can get back in and move again RAW… not sure how useful but that’s very fun!
@@LItbashing Better I think to start out in the rhino, march to position and disembark, next movement activation is the tarantula which embarks again immediately after shooting.
Dont sleep on those fast attack either, Outriders will rip through infantry and do a punch against tanks Scimitars will punch infantry off of objectives Javelins getting into an advantageous position then doing a pop up attack is crazy good
I can see World Eaters or White Scars fast attack working as the paper to some rocks out there- the assault cannons I can’t see being as useful. That being said I am planning a Sons of Horus drop pod detachment with lots of them hoping I can get close enough for the re roll 1s, rapid fire. Don’t think they’ll be as effective as las though.
There are barely any models available and they decide to have a tournament? Alright. And yes, ofc, a GW game tournament has ridiculous meta lists? I'm trying to act surprised but I can't.
skyfire: the part that says "In addition" means adding too the sentence before... so shooting at fliers with skyfire gives you Over watch -1. This does not give you Over Watch -1 to anything you wish.
Perhaps that’s RAI - but RAW was judged that it’s an additional rule of Skyfire weapons full stop - not just when over watching against flyers. We’ll see if it’s FAQ’d.
Super interesting insight into the game! I really hope they continue to support it and release some extra factions, I could not resist investing into some tiny custodes and mechanicus units
I also hope that after this tournament some errata will be released, just to get some rules clarification in etc
Looking forward to more LI content!
Epic scale is the best scale
That list looks like about as much fun to play against as a smack to the bollocks to be honest. Glad I didn't go! Also that guy's wallet must have been screaming.
It might be if the people running the best lists weren’t also the most sporting players - not a bad game amongst them!
@@LItbashing you can be a nice guy and make an unfun list 😉
@@TimcPlays So true, just reading the list you can see a WAAC list :P
Even if the player is fun, this list would create an interactive game only against an opponent that's just as WAAC. And WAAC in this game looks silly and samey. I don't think I want to do what it takes to match the extreme spam and force mix in alpha legion with everything I do just to have a chance of winning. I don't think LI is a good game for being played WAAC, it's too poorly balanced. Maybe after enough balancing it could become one, but today it just isn't. I think we as a community need to be good at keeping eachother in check to avoid the heavy skew and spam of the things that are too effective or broken. We've done well in AT18. This, this breaks my heart.
An issue that further compounds skew lists working a little too well is that they're not just playing to the current balance of unit types with infantry being largely the winners, the game currently does nothing to mitigate how many formations one can field, and in turn how many detachments/activation an army will have. That gets compounded by a format with only 3 hour rounds. I feel like the terrain meta has to evolve a bit to reign in infantry, if that means defining some area terrain as difficult to all unit types then so be it, infiltrate needs a hard limit on how many detachments get to do it. I really think there are quality of life changes, simple ones that could be made that boos the enjoyment equally for matched play or narrative. People often hand wave away any discussion of rules fixes as if that something only on the "competitive" side, when really plenty of the changes objectively benefit both kinds of gaming. Not to beat a dead horse but, the problem of infinite infiltrate is just as much a problem if not contained for a narrative game as it is for a tournament. What good is coming up with a cool board and scenario about taking bridges along the center of the board if players can just already be on the other side of the river 4 inches from each other's deployments. Thanks for posing this mattie, it was interesting to watch.
Great video. Would love to hear from some of the solar aux finalists
We need the Imperator.
99.8% confirmed
@OldenDemon a surefire way to get an official kit announced is me to make a huge expensive kitbash of it. It’ll be announced before the video uploads #sodslaw
This person gets it! ☝️
I'll be honest, the meta this guy plays into feels like utter misery. Cycle of spamming the most nonsense stuff. Like there's no point that I am ever going to paint up that many missile launchers.
It´s obvious that missile launchers are op at the moment, more if you compare them with their plasma alternative. But spamming them that way in a game with so many different units just speaks on itself.
Very cool chat! Thanks for the interview. I hope more of these are coming. Ideal content to listen to while assembling LI stuff!
Keep up the great work and do some more of these chats
Must admit, I’d much rather play balanced, multi arm forces games. A bit of infantry, some walkers, tanks and flyers. A knight or two and a titan. Our group also plays with ‘one legion’ lists. Fluffy!
Oh for sure - narrative beats comp any day in my opinion - but having the different options for different styles of player is a good thing
@@LItbashing The main issue is that Legions is just... not a very well balanced game. Breaking it is easy (but expensive in time and money). Of the competitive games I play, Legions doesn't really compare on balance or tightness of the rules. Legions is fun for the spectacle and narrative. Not really the competition.
Such a great looking army and friendly chap, it’s a shame my Scars never had the chance to sort him out.
There is always next time buddy :) I look forward to getting the chance to face you one of these days
The level of disparity between the legion rules is disheartening. I mean, I'm still going to keep playing with my Thousand Sons armoured company, but seeing how utterly dominating Alpha legion are is quite upsetting.
Hoping our 1k sons get special units at some point to make up for the lackluster legion rule.
thank you so much for this talk it really opens my eyes on some of the more tactical decisions that are made in this game. Love the channel and keep up the great work.
Seems like a nice guy, but that list is super WAAC and spammy - straight hobby poison that shouldn't be encouraged.
Depends on the context - tournament play exists and narrative play exists. Whilst tournament play exists, you can’t blame the players for making the best lists for those tournaments.
@@LItbashing Eeehhh whilst I grasp the difference in play formats and mentalities, if those lists are unimaginative and IMO take advantage of rules quirks/subpar rules themselves I just don't feel they should be lauded.
@@DungeonBrushBabblesCompletely agree with you. Anyone can spend the money and write up a powerful WAAC list.
very interesting chat, im wondering if anyone fielded Knights in their lists? if they did, how did they get on?
At the weekend there was one list with knights - three Cerastus I think - but unfortunately I didn’t play it and I don’t know how it did
Appreciate the interview and the insight but a player clearly stating they play blood angels and imperial fist but built and painted an entire new legion just for the event is WAAC, and comes off as a little disingenuous suggesting he didn’t know the list was strong, clearly bs. WAAC players should stick to 40K in my opinion.
Really nice interview, happy to have found your channel!
A deep dive into the rules would be very interesting. The nitty gritty details.
IIRR the image of the SM surrounded by tyrnaids and using droppers as terrain was in the 40K Apocalypse book
I’ll have a look!
Ah I wouldn't discount the las tarantula. If you're going only titans and infantry, you might find your warmaster lose 6 shields as soon as the game starts if you have no screening vehicles. That's a cheap investment for taking away one of the Titan's signature advantages.
Yeah I like the las tarantula. I took 4 in my list
The competitive lists where they are all skewed remind me why I strongly dislike going to tournaments and dislike competitive players in general in these types of games. List had no thought to the background and is just spamming the best stuff to WAAC.
Hope this person/approach is an exception and not the norm and is contained to ultra competitive events, otherwise I can’t see ever playing in any events. These types of players seeping over from 40K into 30k narrative events really ruin it for all the other narrative driven players.
Oh he’s not like that at all - he had loads of fluff and background to his army. He’s a proper player and has narrative lists and win lists.
@@LItbashing I get that from a modeling and painting perspective he put in a lot of work, which I can respect, but that is not a narrative list. I have not seen where in the fluff there was an army that looked like this at all. Painting and Conversions does not equal fluff and background. Also him being friendly does not equal fluff and background. The dude has 2x as many missile toting marines as regular tacticals. He’s got 2x as many dreadnoughts as he has tacticals. Where in any book/novel is that considered true to the background and lore….I call BS on that, sorry.
Him saying that he had no idea this army would do well is pretty disingenuous. It’s the same thing you hear in HH from folks taking Fury of the Ancients or a bunch of Sunkillers etc. and then saying “Oh I had no idea that taking tons of powerful undercoated stuff in a skew list would be strong!” Please…at least be honest.
I don't think you can blame the player. Being WAAC is nothing like trying to bring a good list, and the problem is that even in narrative events people tend to take more competitive lists than they want to for fear of others doing the same (back when I played 40k at tournaments the narrative events were the worst ones for this). The real problem is that a good rule set would mean that competitive lists ARE narrative lists, because the armies that fought in the lore were trying to win at all costs. Why did the legions have so many tactical marines if they were narratively as bad as the rules make them? Because they are not; and we should get the rules to reflect that.
@@AcheronBlade The Hydras Fist was a Mixed Battlegroup formed out of necessity during the pacification of the Zion system when the Imperial Fist Strike Cruiser "Dauntless Might" was destroyed during the initial push into the system. Most of the Imperial Fist escaped the destruction and deployed to the planet sending out a distress signal and going about their mission to pacify the outer planet. it was the Alpha legion of the 333rd Expeditionary force that replied to the distress call coming to the aid of the imperial fists and the two forces proceeded to complete the mission of pacifying the system together. it was on the return that they received word of Horus's betrayal and the alpha legion onboard were enraged when they heard that their brothers had sided with the renegade warmaster and under the watchful eyes of the imperial fist vowed loyalty to the emperor. when the force reappeared in real space the imperial fists vouched for the loyalty of the alpha legion and the Imperial fist commander was given command of the battleforce and was made custodian of the alpha legion their actions would hang on his neck and be his responsibility.
this is just a little excerpt of the fluff written for the battleforce, i have a couple of pages of it including formation names and character names and stuff :)
The LI events I like ask players to keep their competitive urges at home. It leads to a greater variety in legions and compositions, fun and light games for new players and veterans alike. Tactics and skill and winning still matter, but nobody would get crished for spamming just a bit less. I don't feel this list would be remotely acceptable. I applaud this player's hobby and love for his army.
How the hell do you mix Imperial Fists with Alpha Legion? What am I missing here?
Works in two ways. 1) during the heresy any legion can be taken as loyalist or traitor. No legion was entirely one or the other. 2) Alpha Legion of all the legions are renowned for playing a loooong game. Like, so long no one else can comprehend it. Some say they’re so loyalist that they realised siding with Horus was the only way to ensure he would ultimately be defeated in a Doctor Strange holding up the one finger at the end of Infinity War kinda way. Or the opposite but for the Emperor. They are tricksy, tricksy legionnaires very much on their own agenda.
@@LItbashing Although true fluff wise, the LI rules do not support this.
As per RB: " An Army that has the Loyalist Allegiance may not include any Formations or Detachments that contain models with the Traitor special rule and an Army with
the Traitor special rule may not include any Formations or Detachments that contain models with the Loyalist special rule."
Apha Legion Allegiance: Traitoris Perdita.
Any tournament rules that overruled this?
As per RB - page 136: “A player can declare their Formations are drawn from
any Legion, regardless of the Army’s Allegiance - though certain Legions sided with the Emperor or the Warmaster, it was not unknown for disparate elements to go against the will of their Primarch and choose a different path during the Horus Heresy. The only restrictions are UNITS that are specifically Loyalist or Traitor (see the Loyalist and Traitors special rules in the Special Rules section).” - ‘traitoris perdita’ is fluff. Not a unit keyword. You can take Fallen Dark Angels or Tarvitz’ loyalist Emperor’s Children and any mix.
...this killed my joy for the game.
@@LCanilho it’s key to Heresy. At 28mm and 8mm every legion can be taken as loyalists or traitors because it wasn’t clear cut. Heck the very first conflict of the Heresy - Isstvan III - was mostly World Eaters versus World Eaters, some loyalist some traitor (and death guard, emperor’s children and sons of Horus the same). The burning of Prospero was the Space Wolves following Horus’ orders and the Thousand Sons trying to warn the Emperor of the heresy. The 31st millennium wasn’t black and white. That’s the whole point.
as an Imperial fist player I would love to know where Robin sourced his infantry sized decals?
I believe they were custom printed on transfer paper, but I’ll check! :)
Great list building info
Automated sentry is also an "activation" in the movement phase. If it ends that activation in contact with a transport, it can get in. Or more specifically, it can get BACK in after the transport drops it off during ITS movement activation.
Tarantulas have a move of 9" and two armor saves.
Interesting… so if you can drive a rhino to it, then activate its guns, it can get back in and move again RAW… not sure how useful but that’s very fun!
@@LItbashing Better I think to start out in the rhino, march to position and disembark, next movement activation is the tarantula which embarks again immediately after shooting.
I think your sleeping on those dreadnought assault cannons, the -1 ap against infantry is really good and if you roll a 6 you can kill 2 bases
Dont sleep on those fast attack either,
Outriders will rip through infantry and do a punch against tanks
Scimitars will punch infantry off of objectives
Javelins getting into an advantageous position then doing a pop up attack is crazy good
I can see World Eaters or White Scars fast attack working as the paper to some rocks out there- the assault cannons I can’t see being as useful. That being said I am planning a Sons of Horus drop pod detachment with lots of them hoping I can get close enough for the re roll 1s, rapid fire. Don’t think they’ll be as effective as las though.
@@LItbashing thats fair but from experience and what ive seen they are actually just as good just against different targets
There are barely any models available and they decide to have a tournament? Alright.
And yes, ofc, a GW game tournament has ridiculous meta lists? I'm trying to act surprised but I can't.
Availability isn’t bad at the moment! And only missing a couple of units. New reveals next Saturday though!
skyfire: the part that says "In addition" means adding too the sentence before... so shooting at fliers with skyfire gives you Over watch -1. This does not give you Over Watch -1 to anything you wish.
Perhaps that’s RAI - but RAW was judged that it’s an additional rule of Skyfire weapons full stop - not just when over watching against flyers. We’ll see if it’s FAQ’d.