I don’t know about anyone else, but I LOVE seeing all of these scope waveforms to see how engines work. I’m still learning it all myself, but it’s fascinating.
Man, I am glad you posted a video this morning. Sunday mornings suck. Now I have something to watch while I enjoy my coffee. Getting my grit on so we can plant that 18' post in the ground this morning. My oldest son is almost ready to move into his new home. His first home, and we have to get the meter pole ready. Life is good.
GM has updated the ECU software for many of these. They will allow more variance on the timing chain. I was working on an Impala with a 3.6. I did an update on the ECU and TDS notes said it was a fix for P0008 and P0017. I flashed and the codes did not come back. I don't know if this is for all GM's or not. I did not scope it though so I cannot say how many degrees it was off.
That's very idiotic by GM since it's only masking the problem i've done close to a dozen timing chain replacements on the 3.0 and 3.6 engines and all the chains have always been stretched 1/4 to 1/2 inch depending on how long it was ran with the problem
@@lieutenantdan8170Dang that's a lot of chain stretch. You'd think GM would have changed to a different chain design or or a different supplier or something. Or maybe it's an issue with engine oil or something. I assume most chain stretch is from the pins holding them together wallowing the holes out.
I really enjoy how you explain the scope patterns you make it so much easier to understand . with 2 to 1 ratio between crank and cams and three chains complicates it were well worth are diagnostic time
If I remember correctly, Eric O was had a similar problem a couple of years back. The chain stretch was not that high, but was enough to exceed the limit and the system shuts it all down. It is a weird one in that at say 4.9 degrees out, it is fine, at 5.0 it is suddenly out of spec and you get the MIL light and degraded performance. No middle ground!
I've found a lot of those reluctors shifted so I just pull the pan for a look before doing a chain and let the customer know up front. Press on stuff on cranks and cams suck.
I know that the LE0 version of that 3.6 litre GM V6 engine was known to have problems with the timing chains stretching & the crankshaft timing sprocket keyway wearing out in them in the 2006+ model Holden VE Commodore (Basically the 2006 model Pontiac GTO engine with that V6 engine fitted instead of the 6 litre V8 engine) in Australia. My grandfather has done over 400,000 kilometres (250,000 miles) in his 2005 model Holden VZ Commodore which he bought when it was a couple of years old,it runs the very first of the high feature 3.6 litre GM V6 (LY7) engines with variable camshaft timing on inlet camshaft sprockets. I think that it's because he does a lot of country driving that it hasn't flogged out the timing chains & the crankshaft timing sprocket keyway but it's no excuse when I have found that the LS1 V8 powered Holden Commodore has been a better choice,the same goes for the VE Commodore which runs the 6 litre L76 V8 engine standard & the L98 V8 engine in the enhanced version which was fitted by Holders special vehicles division. Even some people go as far as saying that the old 3.8 litre Buick L36 V6 engine was better than the 3.6 litre alloy V6 engine !
Something I have noticed over seeing several of these and ecotec 4 bangers and timing chains, the oil filter cap has a drain back valve in it. Lack of oil pressure on start up destroys timing guides. Every time I do a timing job on a ecotec or rwd 3.6 I ALWAYS replace the oil filter cap.
I'd been waiting for this video! Since seeing your comment about this on another video. So glad you delivered! I have this same exact car 106k but only the p0008 code and i tried changing the camshaft position sensors on bank one back in march but it did not work. I paid a mobile mechanic to diag who suggested i try the same but he did not do a thorough diag like you, just gave suggestions since the car drives just lacks power. I did buy the vvt Solenoids like the other comments of that video suggested but I'm betting it's just my chains like you say. I've been driving with Christmas lights for 5 years now. Once I'm able to afford to replace them, I'll will definitely follow up!
The timing chain stretch was determined to be caused by carbon in the engine oil from Di engines causing the timing chain pins to wear excessively . This was such a problem that Oem’s went to the oil companies and they come up with a new Api classification to address this issue.
@@alexanderzubar9593 chain stretch is caused by the pins and their bushings wearing. The links themselves don't stretch, but pin/bushing wear effectively lengthens the chain.
@alexanderzuba Here is the title to one video that addresses this issue: 3 big problems with direct Injection engines . The new API classifications are SP and ILsac GF-6a . Here is another one from MB World which address this :Direct injection timing chain wear. There are many more articles on the web.
i just did this last month on bank 1 exhaust tension took a dump had do to a tming chain and it was fixed and passed inspection and costumer was happy as hell because she went to somewhere and they told her she needs a new engine lol when you mention the codes i already new that needs timing job lol and i saw the same tsb and remove the pan and check the crank mine was fine as well
Just seeing this video now. I have codes P0017 and P0019 for a few years now. Mine is a 2010 3.0 Equinox AWD. I've been religious about the oil changes. I have no chain noise, it runs well, almost chirps 2nd gear on FT acceleration. I also get 26mpg with AC on doing 74mph here in Florida. I've always used good oil, Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platinum and now on Valvoline Restore and Protect for the next two oil changes. Car has 183K miles. I just did a borescope on the front 3 cyls and pistons look good with little carbon build up and the cyl walls look new. Shiny with very visible crosshatching.
When looking at timing shift with stretched chains, don't forget the tensioners. The driven sprockets will be pulled in the direction of the tensioner, so the stretch will not be distributed evenly.
Not so, the chain is pulled on the opposite side of the tensioner. The tensioner takes up the slack on the slack , not pulled, side. This to keep the loose chain from slapping around. The tensioner does not affect chain stretch or timing, it only adjusts for chain stretch.
Are these timing chain issues preventable with shorter oil change intervals and did GM ever alter the design to improve durability? It's a shame because the old 3.8's had a reputation for being bulletproof.
Unexpected ending, Ivan! I thought there was a workable solution. Unfortunately, there's not - just ride until it's done (or spend a ton of money on it).
@17:43 you can't think of it in distance like that. B1 ex is no farther away from the crank than the other 3. The lower chain is the disconnect, both upper chains are the same distance from each drive idler on their respective side. All stretch in the lower chain is automatically added to any stretch in each upper chain. That is where any difference in bank to bank correlation is seen, difference in upper chain stretch.
What I see is even chain stretch. The reason this problem is more prevalent on multi chain engines is tolerance stack. Here we have 3 chains and 9 sprockets (each upper drive idler has 2, a driven sprocket and a drive sprocket), and two idler bearings. Wear in all of these components adds up. It seems like GM's logic may be that the first code sets and it no longer desires to continue monitoring or isn't able to because the phasers are locked out.
1:00 They are also notorious for the chains pulling through the links and breaking right around 80 to 100k.. Usually on bank 2. NOTE: these engines have 3 chains, A primary idler drag chain and a chain for each bank that run on 2 independent idlers.
@@NicolasSchreudersin my experience, the steel the link ovals are made of is too soft, as the pins wear their way through. Or maybe the link pins are too hard. But the failure is the same. That's what happens when you outsource.
Depending on how many teeth are on the crank-- it may have actually jumped a tooth, because of loose guides are tensioner, etc; seems more likely since both cars had nearly the exact same numbers... Or I guess it probably has a stretch tolerance and it trips the code just as you pass it... which is why both numbers are nearly the same. Makes perfect sense.
😂 And people tell me chains are superior to the belts in my Hondas. 200 bucks and a couple of hours on a Saturday and I'm good for 10 years... Plus I don't need an expensive damn scope.
I had a 2014 2.4 equinox on Friday setting a p0017. I took a waveform and could see that the exhaust cam was clearly out of time.(wish i could post the picture of it here). Turns out the exhaust reluctor moved(pressed fit) I literally have changed dozens of chains, phasers, (almost never a sensor😉) complete timing sets on the 2.4s and have yet to see anything except a chain kit fix the p0017. We need a better reference location for waveforms. Almost impossible to find everything when you need it. I had a 2010 equinox with a 3.0 v6 with timing codes and could not find a verified known good waveform. I found waveforms but they did not match what I had... given diag time I was already at and what customer was going to pay for the time I invested I had to let it go and never got a chance to find out what it truly was going on with it... picos library is good but not all encompassing and my other sources like mitchell, all data, etc are very hit n miss...Do you have an email or forum I can post the picture of the reluctor that moved? The reference should be available to help the next person who encounters this.
I have a 2014 GMC Acadia. It has 150k on it, no engine issues, normal oil change. I don’t do top high maintenance on it, in fact I just asked my mechanic about doing preventative maintenance on it, he said leave it alone until the engine light comes on with an issue, if it’s working fine DO NOT TOUCH IT, when you start interfering with stuff that’s when weird problems start showing up.
Here in Australia the 3.6 Alloytech engine was put in Holden Commodores from 04 onwards until the closure of the company .The timing chains were a known failure point (stretching )from 160000klms however if the correct oil & change intervals are observed they do not have the problem my 05 with the LEO designation has 179000klms on it no problem (It was a Police commissioners vehicle before I purchased it so maintaince was meticlous)The LYF & LFE designations in the later models 06 to 18 which had higher horsepower were more suseptable to chain stretch.
In cases like these, OEM parts quality is the central issue. In most cases, you wouldn't even suspect a Toyota timing chain at 200K. Just look at the heat indicator markings and move on. Low mileage timing failures are unacceptable in this century, without some abuse factor.
Skinny low noise chains don't help. I have a vk45de engine with 180k km on it and the chains are worn over 8 degrees, and it's one of the cleanest engines I've ever seen inside
The in-cylinder pressure transducer vs ckp signal can prove/disprove a shifted/rotated ckp reluctor wheel. You'd need known good to compare to, though. But I also imagine - if the ckp reluctor has indeed shifted, ignition timing would be off. So you can compare a scan data pid for ignition timing, vs an actual measured timing and test it that way.
My opinion driving with a loose / stretched timing chain is driving on borrowed time until shtf or valve hits the piston…. Vhtp.. lol. But thats just something you don’t put up with.. is like driving with no coolant.. it can only overheat so long before something happens..
I've run across this engine that had the chains replaced and had no codes for almost a year, then they showed up. The dealer went to do a chain replacement and found that the main chain, crankshaft, one had been installed one link off. The ECU compensated fine until the chains stretched some, normal wear, then it was out of limit and the death codes showed up.
that's inexcusable for a supposedly premium brand. Most Cadillacs are rebodied Chevrolets anyway, and they can't even add a decent interior chime. Even Ford does that.
A spun reluctor on the crankshaft could throw out ignition timing. Maybe, just maybe, you could do an ignition timing check with an in-cylinder pressure transducer. But, that will only work if the ignition timing is based SOLELY on the CKP, true in some cars, but not all.
Hi Ivan in part 1 you stated only use GM OE parts if it has a wire coming from it. I believe a Timken hub would work as well . But you are 100 percent correct ,quality parts make a huge difference. I watch all your videos. 😊
Diagnose Dan had a recent issue with stretched timing chains. Why, oh why, is it not possible to have a timing chain guide sensor on any vehicle to activate a dash warning when the guides go beyond a calculated travel distance? It is simply ridiculous to have so much diagnostic time wasted.
So either the tone wheel has shifted on the crank or the lower chain has the stretch. It will be interesting to see what you are able to determine. I bet you are going to deploy the in cylinder pressure transducer to determine if it’s mechanical timing or tone wheel shift.
i always preferred belts to chains even though they both wear out or stretch over time and mileage. with an engine scanner you can diagnose most issues. doesnt have to be a $1000 scanner. i have one that was less than $100
I had this same issue on my 2008 Pontiac G8 with the LY7 3.6 V6, happened at 65k miles in 2011 and GM dealers would not fix the reluctor wheel issue on my engine so I had a shop do the timing chains and it turns out it was completely screwed! Totally crappy customer service from GM on this issue on that engine and an absolute nightmare for customer!!! They knew about the issue and just passed it off on the customer!
that engine came out in 2004 in 2006 they reduced the size and durability of the engine timing chains/in 20 years i had one crankshaft reluctor that shifted/engine had a overheating problem it had 120k miles on it/the chains in these engines are junk/aftermarket kits are junk/i have replace chains and had them re fail in 10,000 miles and they were stretched again/you can watch chain variance while driving if exceeds 8 degrees it will set codes and starts timer and will lock system after 30 seconds if i remember correctly/bank 1 usually are always stretched more/that bullitin you had up said check for chain stretch first/it can be done by removing actuator solenoids or cam covers/new chains tensioners will be extended a little amount and should hold chain tight/if stretched chain tensioner will move when pulling on chain and will see a lot of tensioner piston out of body
What would really help nail this down exactly Is a known good in cylinder pressure waveform versus crank sync notch. Then you would know if the reluctor has moved in relation to the pistons.
I have these codes in my 2008 Cadillac SRX, along with P0018. However, i just had all the timing chains and sprockets changed 22k miles ago. The only thing that wasn't changed was the VVT solenoids....so despite what you say about just changing those parts, sometimes those parts are the issue.
It looks like a teardown would show the problem, but since the crank timing wheel is at the back of the engine, what do you have for a mechanical reference to check the cam timing other than removing #1 spark plug and checking when the piston is up at TDC compression? Maybe later on the vehicle will be back. Good one Ivan.
The most obvious factor you have overlooked is the oil pressure that keeps the chains tight. I chased my tail on an Equinox with the DOHC engine, and the slippage in the timing was an internally broken, but delicate, oil pressure pump that kept the DOHC timing chains from jumping time. This was caused by a "warranty repair" in replacing the water pump & chain, but with no money in the repair for the dealer to protect the DOHC chains or the delicate oil pump that was the key to the issue. It was jury-rigged and failed w/in 4,000 miles. Put another way, assuming no slippage of the gear pressed on the crank shaft, etc., what is more likely, a chain stretching that is continuously bathed in an oil bath, or a defective oil pump that is supposed to maintain adequate lubrication of these things.
Wasn't there a flash for the Traverse ECU that extended the stretch to like 2 mm instead of the 0.5 mm originally firmwared? I had the sorta same issue with a 2010 Traverse. Owner came back after OEM chains and phasers, in about 4 months, and called friend and he said to bring into dealership for the update. (Note customer wasn't doing a great job of oil changes) Just a thought, but a maybe? Great video as always!
I did 2 Alloyturds timing kits & oil pump (LY7 3.6 & LF1 3L) in Commodores last week for the P0017 & in my experience it's usually the first code to set, both run great now but it's a very expensive job.
i have done numerous timing chains on these from FWD/AWD caddy srx to Acadia/traverse to Camaro. Every time i take the chain off and hang it next to a new one it its stretched longer. bad chains also cause misfire even if the p0018 codes etc are not set. Last Camaro i did only had 110k miles.. SO go figure gm v6 quality.. Stay away from these. GM has TSB for the older 3.6 stuff even claiming the chains stretch lmao. There was a warranty recall for this like 10 years or miles etc on the older stuff. I also recommend not taking this job!!! The best way is using a lift and dropping out the engine and transmission on the ground if its Front-wheel Drive!! RWD can be done in car easily/Camaro etc. It is a monstruous fight to do it in the car FWD/sideways engine!!
Fourth! I can remember when Cadillacs had a christmas tree above the rear window you could see in the rear-view mirror. If that is the GM 3.6 LFA engine it is really a pile with only 85,000 miles. While a 2008 Suzuki XL-7 has that 3.6 liter engine, I KNOW your '02 does NOT; if it did you wouldn't have it. The 'ol Marquis had 497,000 miles and I wonder what condition the chains are in on that 4.6 modular. I will bet they have been ground up into shavings. NAH! GREAT VIDEO!
My thoughts are that the software looks at the timing of the first bank first and if its off, it flags the code and goes no further with other codes on the second bank, other than the performance code which the software looks at sometime later.
Maybe if it was titanium. There just isn’t enough meat on the chains nor space in the chain case for a stronger chain. The Car Care Nut channel showed the difference between a Toyota chain at 100 k and a GM chain. The GM chain looked like a toy and was stretched with a lot less mileage. He said he never replaces the Toyota chains. They don’t wear or stretch no matter the mileage. Amazing that GM with all the experience designing engines still designs junk. 😕
So In other words if you own a GM over a Toyota you better change the oil twice as often and stay off of the throttle if you don't want timing chain issues, That's what I see here, It's a shame the bean counters at GM have everything at the bare minimum quality spec now just to save a few dollars, The hell with the Customers they will keep coming back for more of our unreliable JUNK, Why because we are all diehard GM fanboys, Well guess what GM, Your WRONG ❗fjb
I have a 2005 srx with 261.000 miles on it, the trick is don't let the oil go past 3.000 miles, and keep the PVC clean. Sludge build up will kill this engine.😊
I'm sure someone on Facebook would've helped you with a correct ckp cmp waveform for ya. And did you have the vvt solenoids plugged in? Think maybe that b2 ex might've been phasing just a little bit? I just did a p0017 on a cruze, zoomed in on 4 different spots and had 4 slightly different results. (Vvt's plugged in) Makes for a lot of variables!
I replaced timing chains on a 2010 with a cloyey kit. About 6 months one chain broke in two. Replace again and about 6 months broke in two and destroyed cylinder head. Installed oem chain's couple of years still going.
A Cadillac lasted 16 whole years before planned obselescence kicked in? GM let that one slip through the cracks. The more I watch yours and East Main's videos the more I realize I will probably never buy any US brand vehicles, most especially GM. I just bought my first Toyota, a 4Runner, last year and after having some parts replaced and fixing up some neglected things on it I am surprised it has ran as well as it has, and the parts Toyota designed for the drive train are beefy compared to my old Cherokee, it's no wonder they are so robust.
I never really understood why these early high feature V6s eat timing chains. It seems like we blame later chain failure on the direct injection but these first gen ones are port injected. In any event, as I have said time and time again, the Northstar is the much better choice in these Sigma STSs and SRXs. I had one of each and guess what - no timing chain problems. Or any engine problems.
@@lieutenantdan8170 Yeah that makes sense. Plus the inevitable oil consumption on those long intervals. I think I remember reading that running low on oil does starve the chains for lubrication over time. My 08 SRX V8 held like 8 quarts so the 8000-10000 mile oil changes on synthetic were fine, plus I never let it get more than a quart low. The problem is, this was the era were the oil life monitor wanted to run the oil to 13k or sometimes a tad longer. For regular people not using the right oil or checking it, this is a recipe for disaster.
Well most of us have felt reality laughing at us while while stare at our broken, but still good enough to use broken equipment that we can't afford to fix.
I knew the early 3.6L had this problem, what have you seen on the 2016 LFX models? Has the problem shown to be better for this engine, with good oil change maintenance?
Hi Ivan , do you think primary chain can be a tooth of? from previous work on timing chains? I know those digital things are right, but how about mechanical of it? Some times i think "new age" mechanics have forgotten some of their skills, without those fancy computers, they cant do anything, Not you Ivan, I have seen you to do that, just old good ways also. And doing those "russisn" fixes too, those are best in your channel. By the way do you know any channel of doing these old (30 - 50 years) german cars, like mercedes and vw bugs, I would be more than gratefull of that information, because my youngest car is now 35 years mb and oldest is 52years old beetle, in fact same as my honda 350 twin.
Looks like that ABS problem is the least of this car's issues. And what's with timing chains on GMs? Say what you will about BMWs, but I have a '94 740iL that's had its share of problems through 240k miles, but the timing chain? Never an issue.
In the past when I’ve had a vehicle with lights on in the dashboard if it’s running good, not leaking anything,not making noise and not on fire 🔥 I just keep driving it 😂
The 3.6 has 2 secondary chains for the cams and 1 primary chain ! more frequent oil changes with a good GF-6 oil could prolong the life of the chains ! I believe the GF-6 was formulated for these issues on all modern cars with timing chains ! Plus there may even be a little alkalized napthaline in the formula which basicly " motorkote " ! I use that in everything cause its proven !
About the crank reluctor wheel...so sad an automaker cheaps out on a buck or two and doesnt key the reluctor to the crank. Man, i am glad i dont own that crap
Both my 3.8 Commodores went past 500,000 km with no engine work done. Oil change 6,000km. Clean oil, clean air and clean fuel plus drive it like you love your wife.
Drive it til it drops. That's my motto. Then again, a 1995 Ford Ranger with a 2.3 and a 5 sp will run forever. Toughest truck Ford ever built. I owned a Caddy in the 90's. Never again.
Driving it like that probably will cause damage long term, but it has a lot of miles, it is not your cross-country car, you do not need emissions, drive it till it drops.
I was thinking the same, but it would be a programmable sensor. The risk is altering the signal just masks the real problem until disaster strikes, but drive it till it drops is the same path to the crusher. With a programmable "cheater" sensor, it would restore some performance since the death codes wouldn't be there.
There certainly is, however I fear that would not be a good solution. Something tells me that would end up causing other problems. Plus the code for each different computer would have to painstakingly be disassembled and combed through looking for just one value. That would be almost impossible for your general mechanic. Might even be impossible for 99% of people out there. I certainly wouldn't even try. But yeah, with computers and intelligence anything is possible.
Sure would be great to have “ known good” and “ known bad” timing charts to skip all the guessing. Especially on something as spendy as a timing chain job diag.
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I don’t know about anyone else, but I LOVE seeing all of these scope waveforms to see how engines work. I’m still learning it all myself, but it’s fascinating.
Man, I am glad you posted a video this morning. Sunday mornings suck. Now I have something to watch while I enjoy my coffee. Getting my grit on so we can plant that 18' post in the ground this morning. My oldest son is almost ready to move into his new home. His first home, and we have to get the meter pole ready. Life is good.
There's no mechanic out there doing that math. You're amazing
GM has updated the ECU software for many of these. They will allow more variance on the timing chain. I was working on an Impala with a 3.6. I did an update on the ECU and TDS notes said it was a fix for P0008 and P0017. I flashed and the codes did not come back. I don't know if this is for all GM's or not. I did not scope it though so I cannot say how many degrees it was off.
That's very idiotic by GM since it's only masking the problem i've done close to a dozen timing chain replacements on the 3.0 and 3.6 engines and all the chains have always been stretched 1/4 to 1/2 inch depending on how long it was ran with the problem
@@lieutenantdan8170Dang that's a lot of chain stretch. You'd think GM would have changed to a different chain design or or a different supplier or something. Or maybe it's an issue with engine oil or something. I assume most chain stretch is from the pins holding them together wallowing the holes out.
I'll look into the reflash next time! 👍
They were supposed to I’ve fixed the problem after 2012 That’s related to poor oil changes
I really enjoy how you explain the scope patterns you make it so much easier to understand . with 2 to 1 ratio between crank and cams and three chains complicates it were well worth are diagnostic time
Five will get you ten that the dealer mechs don't go that deep. They don't have the time nor the knowledge.
If I remember correctly, Eric O was had a similar problem a couple of years back. The chain stretch was not that high, but was enough to exceed the limit and the system shuts it all down. It is a weird one in that at say 4.9 degrees out, it is fine, at 5.0 it is suddenly out of spec and you get the MIL light and degraded performance. No middle ground!
Sounds like some engineer just picked a nice round number for the limit...
@xanderlander8989 yes... should have been noted degradation, not MIL light of death.
I've found a lot of those reluctors shifted so I just pull the pan for a look before doing a chain and let the customer know up front. Press on stuff on cranks and cams suck.
Will you be able to see 👀 10 degrees differences?
Had that issue on mines.
I know that the LE0 version of that 3.6 litre GM V6 engine was known to have problems with the timing chains stretching & the crankshaft timing sprocket keyway wearing out in them in the 2006+ model Holden VE Commodore (Basically the 2006 model Pontiac GTO engine with that V6 engine fitted instead of the 6 litre V8 engine) in Australia.
My grandfather has done over 400,000 kilometres (250,000 miles) in his 2005 model Holden VZ Commodore which he bought when it was a couple of years old,it runs the very first of the high feature 3.6 litre GM V6 (LY7) engines with variable camshaft timing on inlet camshaft sprockets.
I think that it's because he does a lot of country driving that it hasn't flogged out the timing chains & the crankshaft timing sprocket keyway but it's no excuse when I have found that the LS1 V8 powered Holden Commodore has been a better choice,the same goes for the VE Commodore which runs the 6 litre L76 V8 engine standard & the L98 V8 engine in the enhanced version which was fitted by Holders special vehicles division.
Even some people go as far as saying that the old 3.8 litre Buick L36 V6 engine was better than the 3.6 litre alloy V6 engine !
Most informative video I've seen and at this point it feels like I've watched all 2.3 million of them
Something I have noticed over seeing several of these and ecotec 4 bangers and timing chains, the oil filter cap has a drain back valve in it. Lack of oil pressure on start up destroys timing guides. Every time I do a timing job on a ecotec or rwd 3.6 I ALWAYS replace the oil filter cap.
This confused the heck out of me, but i loved watching every bit of it. Keep them coming.
I'd been waiting for this video! Since seeing your comment about this on another video. So glad you delivered! I have this same exact car 106k but only the p0008 code and i tried changing the camshaft position sensors on bank one back in march but it did not work. I paid a mobile mechanic to diag who suggested i try the same but he did not do a thorough diag like you, just gave suggestions since the car drives just lacks power. I did buy the vvt Solenoids like the other comments of that video suggested but I'm betting it's just my chains like you say. I've been driving with Christmas lights for 5 years now. Once I'm able to afford to replace them, I'll will definitely follow up!
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas ... I couldn't help it :)
The timing chain stretch was determined to be caused by carbon in the engine oil from Di engines causing the timing chain pins to wear excessively . This was such a problem that Oem’s went to the oil companies and they come up with a new Api classification to address this issue.
@whynot4409. Interesting. Where did you see this analysis? Pins wearing, not the links stretching?
@@alexanderzubar9593 chain stretch is caused by the pins and their bushings wearing. The links themselves don't stretch, but pin/bushing wear effectively lengthens the chain.
@alexanderzuba Here is the title to one video that addresses this issue: 3 big problems with direct Injection engines . The new API classifications are SP and ILsac GF-6a . Here is another one from MB World which address this :Direct injection timing chain wear. There are many more articles on the web.
It was my first hard drive failure that made me back up (lots). There is no better lesson!
i just did this last month on bank 1 exhaust tension took a dump had do to a tming chain and it was fixed and passed inspection and costumer was happy as hell because she went to somewhere and they told her she needs a new engine lol when you mention the codes i already new that needs timing job lol and i saw the same tsb and remove the pan and check the crank mine was fine as well
Just seeing this video now. I have codes P0017 and P0019 for a few years now. Mine is a 2010 3.0 Equinox AWD. I've been religious about the oil changes. I have no chain noise, it runs well, almost chirps 2nd gear on FT acceleration. I also get 26mpg with AC on doing 74mph here in Florida. I've always used good oil, Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platinum and now on Valvoline Restore and Protect for the next two oil changes. Car has 183K miles. I just did a borescope on the front 3 cyls and pistons look good with little carbon build up and the cyl walls look new. Shiny with very visible crosshatching.
Coffee and PHAD, it's gonna be a great day!
I read this comment with PHAD in my right hand and coffee in the left! So true!
@@braddofner I do coffee in the right and PHAD in the left, but to each his own.
I love the AllData hand scribbled in MS Paint "Good" and "Bad" captions.
AllData 'rules' and is a must for everyone.
Add some chain tightening fluid
Oh yeah, that stuff. StopStretch or something like that right😂
It's called water, it makes everything tight in there.
When looking at timing shift with stretched chains, don't forget the tensioners. The driven sprockets will be pulled in the direction of the tensioner, so the stretch will not be distributed evenly.
Not so, the chain is pulled on the opposite side of the tensioner. The tensioner takes up the slack on the slack , not pulled, side. This to keep the loose chain from slapping around. The tensioner does not affect chain stretch or timing, it only adjusts for chain stretch.
Are these timing chain issues preventable with shorter oil change intervals and did GM ever alter the design to improve durability? It's a shame because the old 3.8's had a reputation for being bulletproof.
Unexpected ending, Ivan! I thought there was a workable solution. Unfortunately, there's not - just ride until it's done (or spend a ton of money on it).
Similar issue with our 2010 Traverse. Being so old, we opted not to spend the money. It’s been 7-9 years, and there have been no severe consequences.
I’m sitting on pins and needles waiting for this video to drop.
Good morning, now it’s Sunday,ready for video
@17:43 you can't think of it in distance like that. B1 ex is no farther away from the crank than the other 3. The lower chain is the disconnect, both upper chains are the same distance from each drive idler on their respective side. All stretch in the lower chain is automatically added to any stretch in each upper chain. That is where any difference in bank to bank correlation is seen, difference in upper chain stretch.
What I see is even chain stretch. The reason this problem is more prevalent on multi chain engines is tolerance stack. Here we have 3 chains and 9 sprockets (each upper drive idler has 2, a driven sprocket and a drive sprocket), and two idler bearings. Wear in all of these components adds up.
It seems like GM's logic may be that the first code sets and it no longer desires to continue monitoring or isn't able to because the phasers are locked out.
1:00 They are also notorious for the chains pulling through the links and breaking right around 80 to 100k.. Usually on bank 2. NOTE: these engines have 3 chains, A primary idler drag chain and a chain for each bank that run on 2 independent idlers.
Do you know why the bank 2 chain brakes?
@@NicolasSchreudersin my experience, the steel the link ovals are made of is too soft, as the pins wear their way through. Or maybe the link pins are too hard. But the failure is the same. That's what happens when you outsource.
Depending on how many teeth are on the crank-- it may have actually jumped a tooth, because of loose guides are tensioner, etc; seems more likely since both cars had nearly the exact same numbers... Or I guess it probably has a stretch tolerance and it trips the code just as you pass it... which is why both numbers are nearly the same. Makes perfect sense.
😂 And people tell me chains are superior to the belts in my Hondas. 200 bucks and a couple of hours on a Saturday and I'm good for 10 years... Plus I don't need an expensive damn scope.
Great diagnostic as always.
I had a 2014 2.4 equinox on Friday setting a p0017. I took a waveform and could see that the exhaust cam was clearly out of time.(wish i could post the picture of it here). Turns out the exhaust reluctor moved(pressed fit) I literally have changed dozens of chains, phasers, (almost never a sensor😉) complete timing sets on the 2.4s and have yet to see anything except a chain kit fix the p0017. We need a better reference location for waveforms. Almost impossible to find everything when you need it. I had a 2010 equinox with a 3.0 v6 with timing codes and could not find a verified known good waveform. I found waveforms but they did not match what I had... given diag time I was already at and what customer was going to pay for the time I invested I had to let it go and never got a chance to find out what it truly was going on with it... picos library is good but not all encompassing and my other sources like mitchell, all data, etc are very hit n miss...Do you have an email or forum I can post the picture of the reluctor that moved? The reference should be available to help the next person who encounters this.
I have a 2014 GMC Acadia. It has 150k on it, no engine issues, normal oil change. I don’t do top high maintenance on it, in fact I just asked my mechanic about doing preventative maintenance on it, he said leave it alone until the engine light comes on with an issue, if it’s working fine DO NOT TOUCH IT, when you start interfering with stuff that’s when weird problems start showing up.
At least change the transmission fluid 😉
What a challenge Ivan, but if you don't have money, you just drive it til the wheels fall off, lol!!
Here in Australia the 3.6 Alloytech engine was put in Holden Commodores from 04 onwards until the closure of the company .The timing chains were a known failure point (stretching )from 160000klms however if the correct oil & change intervals are observed they do not have the problem my 05 with the LEO designation has 179000klms on it no problem (It was a Police commissioners vehicle before I purchased it so maintaince was meticlous)The LYF & LFE designations in the later models 06 to 18 which had higher horsepower were more suseptable to chain stretch.
The real problem is they used a weak pin-and-roller link chain like that on a motorcycle. It isn't large enough. GM cheapness.
Good morning from the UK 🇬🇧 🙏
Thanks Ivan!
In cases like these, OEM parts quality is the central issue. In most cases, you wouldn't even suspect a Toyota timing chain at 200K. Just look at the heat indicator markings and move on. Low mileage timing failures are unacceptable in this century, without some abuse factor.
Skinny low noise chains don't help. I have a vk45de engine with 180k km on it and the chains are worn over 8 degrees, and it's one of the cleanest engines I've ever seen inside
The in-cylinder pressure transducer vs ckp signal can prove/disprove a shifted/rotated ckp reluctor wheel. You'd need known good to compare to, though. But I also imagine - if the ckp reluctor has indeed shifted, ignition timing would be off. So you can compare a scan data pid for ignition timing, vs an actual measured timing and test it that way.
My opinion driving with a loose / stretched timing chain is driving on borrowed time until shtf or valve hits the piston…. Vhtp.. lol. But thats just something you don’t put up with.. is like driving with no coolant.. it can only overheat so long before something happens..
We had an exhaust cam reluctor shift on the end of the cam! There was a tab on that also, replace the exhaust came solved the problem!😊
I've run across this engine that had the chains replaced and had no codes for almost a year, then they showed up. The dealer went to do a chain replacement and found that the main chain, crankshaft, one had been installed one link off. The ECU compensated fine until the chains stretched some, normal wear, then it was out of limit and the death codes showed up.
86k. I’d say that is another candidate for the disposable category. Well, at least on Your side it was a double NPR. Cool scope stuff anyway. 👍👍🇺🇸
that's inexcusable for a supposedly premium brand. Most Cadillacs are rebodied Chevrolets anyway, and they can't even add a decent interior chime. Even Ford does that.
@@adotintheshark4848 I think it is inexcusable for any brand.
2012 Impala with 249k miles. All original engine except for a purge valve. 3k mile synthetic oil changes. Runs like new.
Kind of sad that you have to spend all that money on oil changes. We should expect better in this day and age.
A spun reluctor on the crankshaft could throw out ignition timing. Maybe, just maybe, you could do an ignition timing check with an in-cylinder pressure transducer. But, that will only work if the ignition timing is based SOLELY on the CKP, true in some cars, but not all.
It’s one of GM’s worst engines. They knew these problems with the Suzuki brand and didn’t fix it. Shame on you GM! Thanks Ivan!
Hi Ivan in part 1 you stated only use GM OE parts if it has a wire coming from it. I believe a Timken hub would work as well . But you are 100 percent correct ,quality parts make a huge difference. I watch all your videos. 😊
Diagnose Dan had a recent issue with stretched timing chains. Why, oh why, is it not possible to have a timing chain guide sensor on any vehicle to activate a dash warning when the guides go beyond a calculated travel distance? It is simply ridiculous to have so much diagnostic time wasted.
So either the tone wheel has shifted on the crank or the lower chain has the stretch. It will be interesting to see what you are able to determine. I bet you are going to deploy the in cylinder pressure transducer to determine if it’s mechanical timing or tone wheel shift.
Good morning!
i always preferred belts to chains even though they both wear out or stretch over time and mileage. with an engine scanner you can diagnose most issues. doesnt have to be a $1000 scanner. i have one that was less than $100
a cam chain rarely breaks, a belt can, with disastrous results.
Hopefully the owner doesn't end up a chain smoker! Nice scope work as usual to link to the issue.
I had this same issue on my 2008 Pontiac G8 with the LY7 3.6 V6, happened at 65k miles in 2011 and GM dealers would not fix the reluctor wheel issue on my engine so I had a shop do the timing chains and it turns out it was completely screwed! Totally crappy customer service from GM on this issue on that engine and an absolute nightmare for customer!!! They knew about the issue and just passed it off on the customer!
that engine came out in 2004 in 2006 they reduced the size and durability of the engine timing chains/in 20 years i had one crankshaft reluctor that shifted/engine had a overheating problem it had 120k miles on it/the chains in these engines are junk/aftermarket kits are junk/i have replace chains and had them re fail in 10,000 miles and they were stretched again/you can watch chain variance while driving if exceeds 8 degrees it will set codes and starts timer and will lock system after 30 seconds if i remember correctly/bank 1 usually are always stretched more/that bullitin you had up said check for chain stretch first/it can be done by removing actuator solenoids or cam covers/new chains tensioners will be extended a little amount and should hold chain tight/if stretched chain tensioner will move when pulling on chain and will see a lot of tensioner piston out of body
What would really help nail this down exactly Is a known good in cylinder pressure waveform versus crank sync notch. Then you would know if the reluctor has moved in relation to the pistons.
Not a bad idea! 10 degrees should be measurable on the scope 👍
I have these codes in my 2008 Cadillac SRX, along with P0018. However, i just had all the timing chains and sprockets changed 22k miles ago. The only thing that wasn't changed was the VVT solenoids....so despite what you say about just changing those parts, sometimes those parts are the issue.
I never said anything about the solenoids... 🤔
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics then you should have checked the VVT solenoids
How did I get unsubscribed from this awesome channel? WEF collusion?
It looks like a teardown would show the problem, but since the crank timing wheel is at the back of the engine, what do you have for a mechanical reference to check the cam timing other than removing #1 spark plug and checking when the piston is up at TDC compression?
Maybe later on the vehicle will be back.
Good one Ivan.
The most obvious factor you have overlooked is the oil pressure that keeps the chains tight. I chased my tail on an Equinox with the DOHC engine, and the slippage in the timing was an internally broken, but delicate, oil pressure pump that kept the DOHC timing chains from jumping time. This was caused by a "warranty repair" in replacing the water pump & chain, but with no money in the repair for the dealer to protect the DOHC chains or the delicate oil pump that was the key to the issue. It was jury-rigged and failed w/in 4,000 miles.
Put another way, assuming no slippage of the gear pressed on the crank shaft, etc., what is more likely, a chain stretching that is continuously bathed in an oil bath, or a defective oil pump that is supposed to maintain adequate lubrication of these things.
Wasn't there a flash for the Traverse ECU that extended the stretch to like 2 mm instead of the 0.5 mm originally firmwared? I had the sorta same issue with a 2010 Traverse. Owner came back after OEM chains and phasers, in about 4 months, and called friend and he said to bring into dealership for the update. (Note customer wasn't doing a great job of oil changes) Just a thought, but a maybe?
Great video as always!
Ahhh the old 3.6 Gm chain stretch I've heard so much about. I've only done 1, but hear billions of them fail.
I did 2 Alloyturds timing kits & oil pump (LY7 3.6 & LF1 3L) in Commodores last week for the P0017 & in my experience it's usually the first code to set, both run great now but it's a very expensive job.
i have done numerous timing chains on these from FWD/AWD caddy srx to Acadia/traverse to Camaro. Every time i take the chain off and hang it next to a new one it its stretched longer. bad chains also cause misfire even if the p0018 codes etc are not set. Last Camaro i did only had 110k miles.. SO go figure gm v6 quality.. Stay away from these. GM has TSB for the older 3.6 stuff even claiming the chains stretch lmao. There was a warranty recall for this like 10 years or miles etc on the older stuff. I also recommend not taking this job!!! The best way is using a lift and dropping out the engine and transmission on the ground if its Front-wheel Drive!! RWD can be done in car easily/Camaro etc. It is a monstruous fight to do it in the car FWD/sideways engine!!
Fourth! I can remember when Cadillacs had a christmas tree above the rear window you could see in the rear-view mirror. If that is the GM 3.6 LFA engine it is really a pile with only 85,000 miles. While a 2008 Suzuki XL-7 has that 3.6 liter engine, I KNOW your '02 does NOT; if it did you wouldn't have it. The 'ol Marquis had 497,000 miles and I wonder what condition the chains are in on that 4.6 modular. I will bet they have been ground up into shavings. NAH! GREAT VIDEO!
My thoughts are that the software looks at the timing of the first bank first and if its off, it flags the code and goes no further with other codes on the second bank, other than the performance code which the software looks at sometime later.
Would quality replacement chains prevent his from happening again in the future on this car?
Maybe if it was titanium. There just isn’t enough meat on the chains nor space in the chain case for a stronger chain. The Car Care Nut channel showed the difference between a Toyota chain at 100 k and a GM chain. The GM chain looked like a toy and was stretched with a lot less mileage. He said he never replaces the Toyota chains. They don’t wear or stretch no matter the mileage. Amazing that GM with all the experience designing engines still designs junk. 😕
So In other words if you own a GM over a Toyota you better change the oil twice as often and stay off of the throttle if you don't want timing chain issues, That's what I see here, It's a shame the bean counters at GM have everything at the bare minimum quality spec now just to save a few dollars, The hell with the Customers they will keep coming back for more of our unreliable JUNK, Why because we are all diehard GM fanboys, Well guess what GM, Your WRONG ❗fjb
@raymondreiff8170. The only way to prevent the 3.6 timing chains from wearing is to not drive them. Oil changes can’t prevent material stretch.
@@raymondreiff8170 "So in other words".... How about, "In Your Words" .... what are you afraid of?
@@alexanderzubar9593 Or maybe the OEM manufacturer has identified the problem and has since corrected it with new and improved parts???
I have a 2005 srx with 261.000 miles on it, the trick is don't let the oil go past 3.000 miles, and keep the PVC clean. Sludge build up will kill this engine.😊
I just saw (with borescope) front 3 cylinder pistons CRACK when the chain stretched too much. P0300 can also point to a fatality with these engines. 😮
I'm sure someone on Facebook would've helped you with a correct ckp cmp waveform for ya. And did you have the vvt solenoids plugged in? Think maybe that b2 ex might've been phasing just a little bit? I just did a p0017 on a cruze, zoomed in on 4 different spots and had 4 slightly different results. (Vvt's plugged in) Makes for a lot of variables!
I replaced timing chains on a 2010 with a cloyey kit. About 6 months one chain broke in two. Replace again and about 6 months broke in two and destroyed cylinder head. Installed oem chain's couple of years still going.
I've heard horror stories about the Cloyes chains too lol
Timing chains, why? Why not belts instead?
Good, that was a hard call.😎
A Cadillac lasted 16 whole years before planned obselescence kicked in? GM let that one slip through the cracks. The more I watch yours and East Main's videos the more I realize I will probably never buy any US brand vehicles, most especially GM. I just bought my first Toyota, a 4Runner, last year and after having some parts replaced and fixing up some neglected things on it I am surprised it has ran as well as it has, and the parts Toyota designed for the drive train are beefy compared to my old Cherokee, it's no wonder they are so robust.
Have to do the chains on my Holden VE. It has 380.000km's on it .
I never really understood why these early high feature V6s eat timing chains. It seems like we blame later chain failure on the direct injection but these first gen ones are port injected. In any event, as I have said time and time again, the Northstar is the much better choice in these Sigma STSs and SRXs. I had one of each and guess what - no timing chain problems. Or any engine problems.
Bad PCV design and long recommended oil change intervals kill these engines
@@lieutenantdan8170 Yeah that makes sense. Plus the inevitable oil consumption on those long intervals. I think I remember reading that running low on oil does starve the chains for lubrication over time.
My 08 SRX V8 held like 8 quarts so the 8000-10000 mile oil changes on synthetic were fine, plus I never let it get more than a quart low. The problem is, this was the era were the oil life monitor wanted to run the oil to 13k or sometimes a tad longer. For regular people not using the right oil or checking it, this is a recipe for disaster.
That's what I thought. It runs ok. Keep driving it until it doesn't and save up for some engine work.
I’ve got a p0017 on a 2012 Acadia with the 3.6 only code that’s comes back dealer don’t know what to do. So I keep driving it engine sounds fine 🤷🏼♂️
Well most of us have felt reality laughing at us while while stare at our broken, but still good enough to use broken equipment that we can't afford to fix.
I knew the early 3.6L had this problem, what have you seen on the 2016 LFX models? Has the problem shown to be better for this engine, with good oil change maintenance?
Hi Ivan , do you think primary chain can be a tooth of? from previous work on timing chains? I know those digital things are right, but how about mechanical of it? Some times i think "new age" mechanics have forgotten some of their skills, without those fancy computers, they cant do anything, Not you Ivan, I have seen you to do that, just old good ways also. And doing those "russisn" fixes too, those are best in your channel.
By the way do you know any channel of doing these old (30 - 50 years) german cars, like mercedes and vw bugs, I would be more than gratefull of that information, because my youngest car is now 35 years mb and oldest is 52years old beetle, in fact same as my honda 350 twin.
Looks like that ABS problem is the least of this car's issues. And what's with timing chains on GMs? Say what you will about BMWs, but I have a '94 740iL that's had its share of problems through 240k miles, but the timing chain? Never an issue.
How many degrees is each tooth on the crank? Move the chain to make up the difference?
Total price to get fixed just brought one 2 days ago at auction. These codes came up.
In the past when I’ve had a vehicle with lights on in the dashboard if it’s running good, not leaking anything,not making noise and not on fire 🔥 I just keep driving it 😂
The 3.6 has 2 secondary chains for the cams and 1 primary chain ! more frequent oil changes with a good GF-6 oil could prolong the life of the chains ! I believe the GF-6 was formulated for these issues on all modern cars with timing chains ! Plus there may even be a little alkalized napthaline in the formula which basicly " motorkote " ! I use that in everything cause its proven !
I run a Euro full SAPS oil in my 2014 Acadia with 93k miles. As long as it doesn't burn any oil the converters are safe.
About the crank reluctor wheel...so sad an automaker cheaps out on a buck or two and doesnt key the reluctor to the crank. Man, i am glad i dont own that crap
Awesome
I thought I remembered reading or watching a video that if you scope all 4 cams and they should have a rising and falling edge that all align.
Both my 3.8 Commodores went past 500,000 km with no engine work done. Oil change 6,000km. Clean oil, clean air and clean fuel plus drive it like you love your wife.
3 chains and multiple vvt sprockets. What could possibly go wrong
Couldn't you move the chain on the crank sprocket by one tooth?
@jcnikoley. You sure could but it wouldn’t save any labor which is where majority of cost is.
@@alexanderzubar9593 Yes, that's true.
Is a sts 3.6 chain job really bad? Not so bad?
Good diag.
There is something now with the camera verses laptop screen. It's hopeless to see anything...
Drive it til it drops. That's my motto. Then again, a 1995 Ford Ranger with a 2.3 and a 5 sp will run forever. Toughest truck Ford ever built. I owned a Caddy in the 90's. Never again.
Driving it like that probably will cause damage long term, but it has a lot of miles, it is not your cross-country car, you do not need emissions, drive it till it drops.
It's a shame there's no way to program in a timing difference for the sensor shift.
I was thinking the same, but it would be a programmable sensor. The risk is altering the signal just masks the real problem until disaster strikes, but drive it till it drops is the same path to the crusher. With a programmable "cheater" sensor, it would restore some performance since the death codes wouldn't be there.
Only way I could see is if the aftermarket unit isn't reporting the position with as much accuracy as an oem, and the extra "slop" hid the problem.
Replace Crankshaft
In this day and age of technology/electronics I wonder if there is a "Hack" for tricking the computer "10" degrees
There certainly is, however I fear that would not be a good solution. Something tells me that would end up causing other problems. Plus the code for each different computer would have to painstakingly be disassembled and combed through looking for just one value. That would be almost impossible for your general mechanic. Might even be impossible for 99% of people out there. I certainly wouldn't even try.
But yeah, with computers and intelligence anything is possible.
Remove oil pan, smack reluctor with a hammer and tack weld so it doesn't shift again. 😜
Sure would be great to have “ known good” and “ known bad” timing charts to skip all the guessing. Especially on something as spendy as a timing chain job diag.