Ethanol Problems - How to deal with E10 blended fuel for our boats and small engines
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2024
- Ethanol myths and and ethanol problems. I share the truth about ethanol blended fuels and ethanol gasoline myths. If you're wondering about ethanol in petrol and how E10 petrol could negatively impact your classic car, older boat, lawn mower, gas-powered generator or other big and small engines, this video clears up some of the misconceptions and myths about ethanol blended gasoline and whether ethanol fuel damage is real. If it is E5, E10, E15 or even E85, I share what we know about ethanol and what to do to help prevent serious problems. I also go over how to protect your engine from the dangers of ethanol in your gas tank when preparing for long-term storage or winterization.
If you want to know the differences between gasoline with ethanol (like E10 gas) and gasoline without ethanol this video helps explain what we are dealing with as ethanol continues to be added to our engine fuels, gasoline and petrol.
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#ethanol #E10 #ethanolblendedfuel
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
00:52 Ethanol is a solvent
01:31 Phase separation and water in the fuel system from ethanol
02:40 Fuel additives and ethanol blended fuel
04:24 Dangers of using E15 and higher percentages of ethanol fuel
05:29 Tips for winter storage or long term storage with E10 fuel
06:44 Will E10 fuel be a problem for cars?
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This Project Farm video shines a lot of light on this subject: ruclips.net/video/UvS_D4_lF5U/видео.htmlsi=TovbiUQMP_MzEetq
Great video Wayne, I can see how much work went into this. Really well put together. 👏
Thank you!!
Thanks Wayne. I'm getting my first boat this week and have been learning a lot from you thanks.
Glad to help!!
This one of, if not the best video explaining the issues of ethanol for 99% of people to understand. Use an engineered premixed fuel in cans for small 2 strokes that are seldom used like chainsaws or trimmers. That way you’ll never have an ethanol problem. Your equipment is much, much more likely to start when you need it and no frustrations.
This video is so informative. Thanks Wayne
Thank you!
Thank you Wayne. Great video.
Hey Wayne,
Just came across your video. I recently bought myself a new Tohatsu 9.8 outboard. A nice little upgrade from my 1975 6hp Evinrude. (which I still love)
I live up in Canada and all of our gas is now at least E10.
My outboard motors only get about a month or 2 of use each year and I have been stressing about the issues this could potentially cause on my new motor. So much so that it has lead me down a youtube rabbit hole on how to separate ethanol from fuel. I don't really want to do this as my boating time each year is already limited. However, I don't want to have issue with my motor either.
My plan is to essential do what you mentioned in your video. Run the carb dry and drain it before long term storage.
I never use old gas. If I have some in my Jerry can before the season I will empty it out and use it as a fire starter. I am always filling up with the highest octane possible (usually Shell V power as its the closest to me).
A few questions for you.
I have always been told to run premium/highest octane available for small engines. Is this still the case even with E10 fuels?
I plan to add a stabilizer each time I fill up my outboard tank, Is there a specific one you would recommend? (there are so many to choose from)
Thanks Wayne. I have watched several of your videos over the years and I love em !
Thanks for kind words. It seems our biggest benefits are from making sure we're using very fresh fuel and running the carbs dry. Supposedly the newer engines have less problems with the E10 than older engines.
Great easy to follow vid ! I had one of my classic cars off the road for a few months doing a rewire & in that time the fuel tank & sender was rusted out . ( this was before all this knowledge was published) !
Two questions: 1 does pre mixed two stroke fuel suffer in the same way ( oil in the fuel) . 2 how do you find out ( in Australia) what petrol does not have ethanol in it ? The oil companies are really cagey about giving information here in OZ !
I now run 91 octane fuel with a dose of Metholated spirits & fuel stabilizer with an octane booster to stop pinging. Cheers Simon
Always had good luck adding an enzyme (blue bottle from Star-Tron) to each tank of 2 cycle gas I mix. I also never keep gas from one season to the other. It goes into the Taco to use up.
Well, thank you!!
T Mike. Great subject. Question. Would you add fuel stabilizer to ethanol gas?
Dynamite. My favorite alcohol protection is pour all the gas back and run the carburetor dry.
You recommend filling the tank with stabilizer added for winter storage. What are your thoughts of storing with minimal gas /stabilizer and filling with fresh gas before starting? This is what I’ve been doing with no problem so far.
That seems to be a good option as well. Some people debate the pros and cons of both - but your approach has a lot more fresh gas, and my approach has a lot less air space for alleged condensation.
@ 7:30 when the trailer is on the boat ramp it looks like you ran the video in reverse. trailer doesn't look wet, dragging lines in front of the tire, water isn't disturbed.
overall this is a great video and I enjoy your content.
I just thought I'd point out that I was paying attention to the details.
LOL - I may have done just that! Sometimes I have trouble finding the footage I need and have to improvise.
I’ve been running 87 on my 1988 evinrude 2 stroke.
Can I switch to none ethanol? Can I mix was left in my gas container?
yes
what about 2 stroke? does ethanol have any effect on 2 stroke tools and bikes for example.
I have had more problems with ethanol fuel in my 2 stroke engines than in 4 stroke engines. Partly because I occasionally go long periods of time without running them.
You will for sure have problems with your 2 stroke equipment. Fuel lines will harden and become brittle. Ethanol will dry up and clog your fuel line and damage your carburetor. Just get an engineered premixed fuel especially if you don’t use the equipment much.
Consumers have only themselves to blame.
The burned through gasoline like it was going out of style in the 30's, 40's, 50's... and kept right at it.
And when cars got more fuel efficient, they started driving huge monster trucks and SUV's.
On top of that the government burned up tons of fuel needlessly in jetfighters and tanks.
Yes it cost more although it takes less to treat with to Wayne the boat Guy.
I always use ethanol free gas in my small engines. If I don't have any, I extract the alcohol from normal
Yeah in some areas it's hard to find ethanol free
May cause issue of innsufficent octane, then you would need to add toulene or xylene to boost octane if the engine does require it.
Guess what else is a solvent: Gasoline and its aromatic components (benzene, toluene, xylene, naphtha to name a few). The detergents added by gasoline companies are also solvents. So why single out ethanol as a SOLVENT, as if it's something bad?
Gunk forms because of gasoline. It builds up, it causes problems. Ethanol is a better solvent and helps to clean the gunk away. If you didn't rely on the ethanol to do this, you would have to find another solution, such as engine additives that can cost as much as 3 or 4 gallons of gasoline. Ethanol that's included in ethanol-gasoline blends is included in the reduced price for the blends versus ethanol-free gasoline.
Water forms in fuel tanks because of natural condensation. The exact same natural condensation, in the exact same quantity occurs in gasoline that has NO ethanol in it. This means that if there is phase separation, the phase separation will occur in either situation. The corrosive layer you refer to would still exist. The good thing about having ethanol in the fuel tank is that the ethanol absorbs the water and when the ethanol-gasoline blend combusts, it vaporizes the water. Could there be an over-saturation of water in a tank that the ethanol in E10 can't absorb? Sure, so then the answer is to use E15 or E20 or E40. If you don't have ethanol, you would have to add a product like DRY GAS or HEET to get rid of the water. Can you guess what the active ingredient is in DRY GAS and HEET? It's alcohol! It does just what the ethanol does. Why? Because ethanol is an alcohol!
Phase separation does not happen with higher blends. If it did, we would be hearing and reading about this happening in Brazil where the mandated minimum level of ethanol in fuel for all ICE vehicles (cars, boats, motorcycles) is E27.
Why don't you know this, Wayne the Boat Guy?
Fuel additives are meaningless, in many of the additives as I mentioned with DRY GAS and HEET, the active ingredients are just alcohol. They're a waste of money.
Sta-Bil, which is a good product, was invented in America in the 1950s, a half century before the regular use of ethanol-gasoline blends in America. It was the solution to the very same problems that exist today. Nothing about their formula has changed to address any ethanol problems, the only thing that changed was some text on the label that pretends it does something additional.
Your claim that engines have not been engineered for E15 and higher is bullshit. Brazil has the exact same vehicles we have in America. They started mandating E15 in 1978. They've mandated E20 and higher for about 2 decades. When a car rolls off the Ford assembly line in Mexico, or a Kia assembly line in Korea, or a Toyota assembly line in Japan, or a Mercedes-Benz assembly line in Germany the vehicles are the same, regardless of whether they will be shipped to America or Brazil.
In addition, ethanol-gasoline blends higher than E15 were regularly in European countries starting in the 1920s.
And, furthermore, even the testing done in America proves that gasoline blends higher than E10 causes no problems other than whatever normal wear and tear problems caused by any ethanol-free gasoline.
And did I forget to mention that the same boat motors, small engines, and power equipment we have in America are also sold and used in Brazil, where the minimum fuel is E27. A lwan mower that can run on E27 in Brazil can also run on E27 in America!
Why don't you know this, Wayne the Boat Guy?
Storing engine for a long time... If you do this, you have to take precautions. But this is just as true for engines that use E85 as it is for E0. That's all there is to it. The use of ethanol-gasoline blends will not result is any greater problem than using E0 (ethanol-free gasoline). The primary problems with storing an idle engine for a long period are caused by gasoline. Ethanol dries as clean as it burns. When ethanol evaporates there is no residue. When gasoline evaporates it leaves a gummy residue. This gum hardens and become a varnish that destroys engines. A filled, sealed tank and system with Sta-Bil is the best solution. The tank and system can be filled with just gasoline with Sta-Bil or an ethanol-gasoline blend with Sta-Bil. Why is the Sta-Bil good for either fuel? Because the problem is the gasoline. Gasoline goes stale. Ethanol never goes stale - but the gasoline of other denaturing agent may go stale.
Running an engine and fuel system dry isn't much better of a solution since condensation can occur even in dry tanks tanks and engines. All that's needed for condensation to occur is air and temperature change.
Time for you to learn the facts about ethanol, Wayne the Boat Guy!
Marc J. Rauch
Author of THE ETHANOL PAPERS and YES, TIN LIZZIE WAS AN ALCOHOLIC
Exec. Vice President/Co-Publisher
THE AUTO CHANNEL
After reading your comments and re-watching my video it looks as if you're really looking for little things to challenge.
You seem to essentially agree with most of my points which are: that ethanol is a solvent, phase separation does exist, filling the fuel system before storage and using some stabilizer is a good idea, and that running an engine dry is second option.
"Why don't you know this, Wayne the Boat Guy?"
First of all, I am not a scientist. All of the info I presented here came from my personal research on multiple other sources which have publicly stated all the things I shared. My research is far from perfect and I doubt there's any perfect research on this subject because all real-world experiences have probably not been recreated in a controlled laboratory setting and why would they be? There surely isn't any well-funded laboratory researching the negative aspects of ethanol in fuels because the world so desperately want/need it be a viable option for multiple economic and political reasons. In other words, it may not be perfect but it helps!
I assume most (if not all) of real testing is looking into how ethanol blends work in newer automobiles and light trucks and it seems to work just fine in those applications. This makes sense since probably 95-99% of E10-E85 will be used in late model cars and trucks. Older boats and small engines that might sit for 6 months at a time through severe seasonal changes surely were not the criteria any testing agency was considering other than 'does it run on this?' Testing agencies don't have the time or resources to let the fuels sit for 6 months in older tanks for engines to see how they perform after long-term storage in a real-world seasonal environment. And even if they do have any data showing negatives from long-term storage or older engine issues, the parameters of a report to see if high ethanol content "can" work to run engines would not need to include such data.
"Your claim that engines have not been engineered for E15 and higher is bullshit."
Most, if not all, marine engines and small motors sold in North America have labels on them telling the consumer to NOT USE E15 or higher. I even show an example from a shop manual that specifically states "no more than 10% ethanol" at 05:14 in my video. So I am merely sharing the information the manufacturers and other reputable sources are presenting.
You mention Brazil and their much higher higher ethanol blends. I have in fact read that they use very high ethanol blends in Brazil. Maybe the locals who run older engines have lots of problems with it - or maybe they don't. In the USA, we get very little real news or information from other countries and we are always sceptical of the information we do get (thinking it's propaganda if it's positive etc.)
Have YOU traveled to Brazil and met with locals running older engines to see if they are experiencing problems from their fuel? Maybe their climate helps or makes it worse. Maybe they all DO have problems and have to discard fuel after a few months or flush their engines with something to keep them from failing. Or maybe it's all perfectly fine or better than it was before ethanol blends.
I have seen multiple examples first hand, on forums, websites and RUclips videos with people experiencing serious fuel system issues in older boats and other engines and it seems to align with after they started using ethanol blended fuels. Some of these problems are clogged up fuel lines, damaged carbs, un-burnable fuel that is less than a year old, etc. One of my personal experiences was when I drove through Iowa years ago and ran a few tanks of 'gasahol' while I was out there because it was cheaper. The old timers said it would ruin the gaskets of my carburetor. A week later, when I returned home my car wouldn't start because gas was literally running out of my carb all over the engine. I had to change all my gaskets because they were ruined and the only explanation anyone could find was the 'corn gas' I had used.
Maybe some of the problems people are experiencing are more related to other additives in newer gasoline. Or we are mistakenly connecting what are merely 'old engine issues' to the newer fuels. But it does seem that there's many fuel-related issues and "old fuel" issues these days, especially with older carburetor engines.
@@WayneTheBoatGuy First, I sincerely want to thank you for your response. You obviously took time to consider what I wrote. The problem with your response and your comment that I "essentially agree" with you is like saying that you should get credit for answering "5" when asked what 3+3 equals. Although 6 is close to 5, it's still the wrong answer.
You don't have to be a "scientist" to know the correct information, just have to have the correct information. You didn't present your video in a manner of you asking questions, you presented information as if you actually knew the answers. You were close in many instances, but not correct.
Ethanol fuels have been used and researched for well over 100 years. There is vast documentation of the tests and studies that show ethanol to be cleaner, safer, healthier, more powerful, and just as economical as petroleum oil fuels. The reason my book "THE ETHANOL PAPERS" is 600 pages is because I spent the time to report on almost every aspect of the issue and to do so from different perspectives. What information I didn't get to in the book, I have written about in several dozen different reports since the book was published. You can refute what I have written about, and/or cite references that challenge my references, but to do so you must provide the counter-references and findings.
I also know that when a person or entity (such as an oil company) makes claims against something in America, and then does exactly the opposite in another part of the world, they are hypocrites. Being a hypocrite isn't too bad until it costs the lives of people. I'm specifically referring to Standard Oil's defense of leaded gasoline in America, and then their acknowledgment in Europe that ethanol-gasoline blends are cleaner, safer, healthier, and more powerful. Leaded gasoline has killed and permanently disabled millions and millions of people.
If an engine sold in America and Brazil can safely run on E27 in Brazil, then it can safely run on E27 in America. There's no equivocation on that, regardless of what an owner's manual says. Manufacturers often do have different ownership manuals in different countries to meet the specific requirements of that country. If a manufacturer states not to use any blend over E10 or E15 in America it is only to limit their liability. They act the same way that an insurance company will work to limit liability when faced with a claim. Yes, Brazil also uses higher blends than E27. Their "flex-fuel" is E95, not E85.
You ask if I personally know that there have been no reports of problems with blends in excess of E10, and the answer is "yes." I know this because I have personally interviewed and researched the issue over several years. There is no reason to discount the people I have interviewed or the data I found in my research because the results are the same as the results found here in America. About 13 years ago, when the EPA announced they were clearing E15, and that E15 testing had shown it to be exactly as safe and problem-free as E10, I was on the conference call that made the announcement. I specifically asked if they tried any other blend levels and what the results were. The head of EPA stated that they also tested E20 and that the results with E20 were the same as with E10 and E15. These results are the same results that the laboratories in Brazil had found. They are the same results found by testing laboratories 115 years ago, and then 90 years ago, and 50 years ago. Moreover, in my own personal testing of high-level ethanol-gasoline blends in flex fuel and non-flex fuel vehicles, I personally know E20, E30, E40, and E50 to be as safe as E10. Therefore, I didn't have to be at the U.S. national laboratories or the Brazilian national laboratories to verify their results.
In my reports, I provide links to several chemical compatibility charts. They all show ethanol to be less corrosive than gasoline and aromatics. They all show ethanol to be fully compatible with the rubber, plastic, and metal components used in engines and fuel systems. If a seal goes bad from corrosion, and there are multiple ingredients that the seal comes in contact with, then the logical answer is not to blame the ingredient that is the least corrosive (which is what you have done). In addition, any problem that you and others try to attribute to ethanol are the same problems that existed in the U.S. during all the decades before ethanol-gasoline blends were routinely used in America. You can't now suddenly blame ethanol for these problems.
@@TheAutoChannel obviously you know much more about this subject than the average person. Have you by any chance ever seen the Project Farm video where he shows the results of soaking aluminum and rubber components in different gasoline/ethanol blends for months at a time (like winter storage for boats and small engines)?
Here's a link to that video: ruclips.net/video/UvS_D4_lF5U/видео.htmlsi=TovbiUQMP_MzEetq
Ethanol is bad! It absorbs water and will carry it through the fuel system helping to form rust and corrosion on metal. It also causes phase separation and it's not as bad as some think if only we could easily drain the water from the tank. It also causes rubber, plastic and some gaskets to dry out. Shall I continue? I would bet you anything politicians have a lot of money invested in the corn market.
This video simply parrots the "theories" about ethanol already being debated on the Internet. #1 Is true--ethanol is a solvent-- but your conclusion lacks proof. Your video still leave the release of damaging residue a theory. #3, fuel stabilizer was objectively tested by others and shown to be useless for protecting metal components when moisture was present in the gas, and relatively useless for long term storage with no moisture present. It also did not protect fuel from serious degradation over long term storage. Non-alcohol fuel did better than ethanol fuel with stabilizer.
I think we can all agree that non-ethanol fuel is the best option by far - but some people are not able to get that where they live.
Electric vehicles are not better for the environment than petrol cars. The measure the fumes out of the exhaust as a test😂😂😂 keeping an older reliable cars and running them for years is far better for the environment then the production of a new ev. Every time the warranty runs out.. we should be putting old cars back on the road not crushing them.. and lowering taxes on them.. creating jobs. Keeping people employed. Not for everyone just people who want to keep an old car.. saving the environment