This video should be required viewing for all safety workers, race car builders, and drivers. Thank you Emmanuel for this production and wishing you a swift recovery.
I really appreciate the detailed analysis & your openness in posting this. This provides a great leaning opportunity for many different groups. Thank You
Autopsie méticuleuse d'une accident brutale . Cette vidéo risque d'être utilisé dans des formations de secours/motorsports pour des années à venir . Méthodique comme toujours . Bravo !
This what keep us alive! Your kindness and (maybe for the first time ever) thorough explanation can help us immensely to help ourselves and our rescuers. So happy both of you are alive and recovering for the next chapter. Truth to be told: I’ve never seen a tree falling that way after a crash. Thankfully it wasn’t a sideways crash 😢 You’re blessed!
I really must commend you for conducting the thoroughly objective investigation and the further investment of preparing the video to share the analysis/lessons learned. It's invaluable. The inevitable emotional impact that accompanies such an incident is invisible and too often goes unspoken. The quality of the content is remarkable under the circumstances. Chapeau! I send my wishes for a speedy and thorough recovery re: both the physical injuries (driver/co-driver) and emotional impacts (the entire team and their families).
One of the most interesting things I’ve seen on RUclips for a very long time. This sort of analysis is invaluable and I have no doubt that it has a place in learning for those who prepare and compete in rally cars and also for rescue and recovery guys in relation to how they train and the types of less common obstacles that were encountered.
Fascinating Frightening Impressive how much energy and damage that car absorbed. The engineering that goes into safety cages is also impressive. I dont know why I was fed this video other than I'm a heavy truck driver, and a fan of machinery in general. Very clear information
Hope the driver & co-driver had complete recoveries. While broken bones hurt, very impressed with the fact your lives were never in peril during the crash & rescue. Things didn't go perfectly, but they could have gone so much worse. Thankful no fire with the damage to the fire suppressant activation cables. Take care, good luck going forward.
An extremely hard hit. I am glad you are (mostly) ok. Thank you for sharing this breakdown. This is exactly what every team needs to think about when building a car or racing
Excellent presentation. I have seen many racing accidents and hear about improvements post accident review, but not to the detail that you provided. Great work
amazing safety cage to protect the driver & passenger , after the crash , great unraveling and future planning . Wish well on healing of both occupants
Given the inputs, surface and speed compared to the earlier run, it almost looks like a mechanical failure more than driver error. Glad you two are going to be OK. Thanks for sharing. The community benefits from the occasional reality check and analysis.
Loved seeing this car around, my personal favorite at the Climb to the Clouds events. Hope the heeling process and everything goes smoothly. Great informational video about the accident and lots of safety pointers a details.
Great information and very well put together documentary. Glad you both lived to tell a tale. It's amazing how strong those subframe chassis are, and I know because I've used an excavator to straighten them. The machine is lifted off the ground whilst pulling in different directions. I broke a half-inch thick chain as well. Maybe try circuit racing next. There's usually no trees to stop you!
That was one helluva shunt. While I'm sure neither occupant is particularly happy with their injuries, that could've been a LOT worse. There definitely was a touch of bad luck in the way that the framerail just missed the tree, as, had it been more involved in the impact, it would've allowed any inbuilt crumple zones to aid in the energy dissipation. Thankfully, some VERY nice design on the cage saved the day. About the only thing I would've questioned was the use of the full dashboard, and the dash support not being integrated into the cage. As you've learned, while a full dash can look nice, they can be a royal PITA when things go wrong. Something more minimal & better padded might be a consideration for the next car (regulations permitting). Similarly, some padded panels covering the cage forward of the seats might be worth adding. Nothing too complicated, just some 5mm high density foam on a FRP/ally panel to spread any impacts with the door bars over a wider area. Other than that, it might be worth checking with the Fire Crews if there are any nationally recognized ways to identify fuel lines - specific colors or patterns that any Fire Crew would see & automatically know what they are looking at. IDK if there are, but between air safety standards, railroad safety standards, commercial vehicle safety standards, and the like, I wouldn't be surprised to find some way that they already know to identify fuel lines. Well, there's my thoughts. Good luck on the rebuild...
The full dashboard is very useful in rally as we need a properly working HVAC system (we can race in -40F temps up to summer heat with often high humidity levels that require very efficient defrosting). In my case, it would have been easy to change the stock dash bar with a new beefier bar (as I bought the car already caged, this was never something that I ever thought to check). Your mileage may vary depending on how old your car is, it's almost a necessity in older cars, sometimes the stock structure in newer cars is sturdier than a single bar. Good idea on color coding the fuel lines. For now we just have a sticker to indicate the location of the kill switch and fire suppression triggers. But for anything close to the cage, it would be a great idea to indicate on the tubing of the cage if fuel or electric lines are nearby. On many cars the lines are hidden under the still bar which would not make them visible even if properly color coded. Thanks for the suggestion!
That's great analysis. You guys are lucky to be here. I'm interested in your analysis of the broken clavicle and your opinion that the same outcome would likely have resulted from a hybrid device. I have a different opinion that may be worthwhile for a medical student to consider... Is it possible that it was not the weight of the unrestrained arm that caused the break? I think that the angle of the seat in a rally car being much more upright than in a formula car changes the direction of the forces in an impact... In a rally car, with the HANS device, the weight of the head and helmet moving forward is opposed by the lower braces of the device with the top of the shoulders being the pivot point. In a formula car, because the body angle is much more prostrate, those forces have less opportunity to break the clavicle because they act in a different angle. For this reason I think that it is possible that the hybrid device might not have resulted in this injury. Worth discussing.
Doing research for this video., it looks like in formula cars where they have to use a different angle Hans device, there is a high occurrence of collarbones breaking (seems to be awfully common in formula Vee). And those are single occupant cars where the driver is holding to a wheel so the arms are not moving. From what I understood, in the almost horizontal position they have in those cars, in case of a frontal impact, the forces to stop the body from moving forward are the lap belts, the buttocks compressing in the base of the seat that is angled and the top of the shoulder namely the clavicle. There are actually less forces distributed across the torso compared to a more upright position. If you look at the 9 point harnesses used in Formula 1, they have 2 sets of straps at different angles above the shoulder but a majority of the impact is actually absorbed by the seat that has an insert molded to the shape of the driver.
Incredibly well researched write-up, thanks Manu. Do you think the data was lost on the Cobb unit or do you think reattaching the chip would provide any useful information?
We tried to put the chip back in place but usually the data is cached and the Accessport does not have a battery backup so as soon as it looses power the data is lost and even sometimes the datalog file gets corrupted if the power loss occurs during a flush to the storage. We have had corrupted data files just from stalling the car after a spin. I was hoping to recover the data from previous runs of the day, trying to work with Cobb to see what can be done.
I know nothing about the data recorder and how it stores data and if it is doing it real time or caching it, but it may be possible to have it repaired and the data recovered. There are many business that offer that kind of service.
We tried to put the chip back in place but usually the data is cached and the Accessport does not have a battery backup so as soon as it looses power the data is lost and even sometimes the datalog file gets corrupted if the power loss occurs during a flush to the storage. We have had corrupted data files just from stalling the car after a spin. I was hoping to recover the data from previous runs of the day, trying to work with Cobb to see what can be done. Cobb had been sponsoring us in the past so they will be the best ones to retrieve any data.
We learn from history! Worth colour coding, fuel lines, brake lines, water lines as internationally recognised. Harnesses have become wider to spread the loads and they also give. That is why the belts should be regularly changed in rally cars. That was a hard bump but glad all turns out ok.
There use to be a drop down from the pavement to the ground but now the ground is level with pavement so you don’t have anything to hold you on that side of road and the rest is physics
Hey there really good video about something we all fear, but need to learn from, quick question the seat mounts, bolted from seat to floor bars , where they Aluminum and was there any damage to those ? Seat mounts are under review here in New Zealand, so real world information is the best information, so any news would be appreciated
The seat mount were steel in this car, they did not crack or showed sign of damage. As the floor geometry was significantly altered by the roots of the tree when it fell on the car, the floor bars had moved and the seat mounts as a result flexed to follow the new position of the floor bars. Once we unbolted the seat mounts from the car they came back to their original shape and they sat straight on the floor (not that we are going to re-use them but they still look good).
We need to redesign the way that we bolt the restraints, if the only saving grace to the frame was the plate used to hold the restraint, what will happen to the occupants when the impact is larger and the bolt and plate are incapable of holding the forces involved?
For cars with weak floors and no reinforcements we usually use a separate bar for the sub-betls (see www.frogracing.us/tech/rally-car-prep/harness-installation for more details). The stock chassis reinforcements are designed to withstand a limited amount of forces, once you exceed that you'll experience more crumpling. Note that this generation of cars was also designed before crash tests started to include offset crashes and this shows in this particular impact.
This video should be required viewing for all safety workers, race car builders, and drivers. Thank you Emmanuel for this production and wishing you a swift recovery.
Thank you for the detailed analysis, very educational!
What an amazing comprehensive breakdown & analysis.
This generosity will benefit many for years to come.
Bravo!
I really appreciate the detailed analysis & your openness in posting this. This provides a great leaning opportunity for many different groups. Thank You
Great learning material!
Autopsie méticuleuse d'une accident brutale . Cette vidéo risque d'être utilisé dans des formations de secours/motorsports pour des années à venir . Méthodique comme toujours . Bravo !
This what keep us alive! Your kindness and (maybe for the first time ever) thorough explanation can help us immensely to help ourselves and our rescuers. So happy both of you are alive and recovering for the next chapter. Truth to be told: I’ve never seen a tree falling that way after a crash. Thankfully it wasn’t a sideways crash 😢 You’re blessed!
I really must commend you for conducting the thoroughly objective investigation and the further investment of preparing the video to share the analysis/lessons learned. It's invaluable.
The inevitable emotional impact that accompanies such an incident is invisible and too often goes unspoken. The quality of the content is remarkable under the circumstances. Chapeau!
I send my wishes for a speedy and thorough recovery re: both the physical injuries (driver/co-driver) and emotional impacts (the entire team and their families).
Wow, what a major off! Glad it wasn’t worse and hope for quick recovery. Very interesting and thorough analysis
One of the most interesting things I’ve seen on RUclips for a very long time. This sort of analysis is invaluable and I have no doubt that it has a place in learning for those who prepare and compete in rally cars and also for rescue and recovery guys in relation to how they train and the types of less common obstacles that were encountered.
Fascinating
Frightening
Impressive how much energy and damage that car absorbed.
The engineering that goes into safety cages is also impressive.
I dont know why I was fed this video other than I'm a heavy truck driver, and a fan of machinery in general.
Very clear information
Hope the driver & co-driver had complete recoveries. While broken bones hurt, very impressed with the fact your lives were never in peril during the crash & rescue. Things didn't go perfectly, but they could have gone so much worse. Thankful no fire with the damage to the fire suppressant activation cables. Take care, good luck going forward.
Glad you are ok, thank you for this very well made video. This is real advice which can help keep everyone safer. This could even save someone's life
An extremely hard hit. I am glad you are (mostly) ok. Thank you for sharing this breakdown. This is exactly what every team needs to think about when building a car or racing
So glad that you guys made it through without much worse injuries.....god was watching ❤️🇺🇲
So glad you lived to tell the tale
Thank you so much for sharing
So much work gone into this car to make safe and you needed all of it.
Great learning material for training purposes! Hope you guys are back soon!💪
Excellent presentation. I have seen many racing accidents and hear about improvements post accident review, but not to the detail that you provided. Great work
I hope both of you have had as uneventful a recovery as possible! Thank you for sharing this analysis!
amazing safety cage to protect the driver & passenger , after the crash , great unraveling and future planning . Wish well on healing of both occupants
Glad everyone was safe very good summary of this incident especially important for fabrication of a safer vehicle
Given the inputs, surface and speed compared to the earlier run, it almost looks like a mechanical failure more than driver error. Glad you two are going to be OK. Thanks for sharing. The community benefits from the occasional reality check and analysis.
Great video! Glad to see everyone will make a full recovery 🙏
Glad everyone is ok and good info on the rollcages
Loved seeing this car around, my personal favorite at the Climb to the Clouds events. Hope the heeling process and everything goes smoothly. Great informational video about the accident and lots of safety pointers a details.
great analisys, sorry for your injuries and for that nice car
A well explained video glad both were ok it looked very messy
Great information and very well put together documentary. Glad you both lived to tell a tale. It's amazing how strong those subframe chassis are, and I know because I've used an excavator to straighten them. The machine is lifted off the ground whilst pulling in different directions. I broke a half-inch thick chain as well.
Maybe try circuit racing next. There's usually no trees to stop you!
Some tracks have some gnarly concrete walls but they have less chances to fall on your roof! 😂
Glad you are OK. From the Dirt Turt to the Frog.
great information
very informative
😮 glad your hear to tell the story buddy. That's a rough one
CHEERS from AUSTRALIA
That was one helluva shunt. While I'm sure neither occupant is particularly happy with their injuries, that could've been a LOT worse. There definitely was a touch of bad luck in the way that the framerail just missed the tree, as, had it been more involved in the impact, it would've allowed any inbuilt crumple zones to aid in the energy dissipation. Thankfully, some VERY nice design on the cage saved the day.
About the only thing I would've questioned was the use of the full dashboard, and the dash support not being integrated into the cage. As you've learned, while a full dash can look nice, they can be a royal PITA when things go wrong. Something more minimal & better padded might be a consideration for the next car (regulations permitting). Similarly, some padded panels covering the cage forward of the seats might be worth adding. Nothing too complicated, just some 5mm high density foam on a FRP/ally panel to spread any impacts with the door bars over a wider area.
Other than that, it might be worth checking with the Fire Crews if there are any nationally recognized ways to identify fuel lines - specific colors or patterns that any Fire Crew would see & automatically know what they are looking at. IDK if there are, but between air safety standards, railroad safety standards, commercial vehicle safety standards, and the like, I wouldn't be surprised to find some way that they already know to identify fuel lines.
Well, there's my thoughts. Good luck on the rebuild...
The full dashboard is very useful in rally as we need a properly working HVAC system (we can race in -40F temps up to summer heat with often high humidity levels that require very efficient defrosting). In my case, it would have been easy to change the stock dash bar with a new beefier bar (as I bought the car already caged, this was never something that I ever thought to check). Your mileage may vary depending on how old your car is, it's almost a necessity in older cars, sometimes the stock structure in newer cars is sturdier than a single bar.
Good idea on color coding the fuel lines. For now we just have a sticker to indicate the location of the kill switch and fire suppression triggers. But for anything close to the cage, it would be a great idea to indicate on the tubing of the cage if fuel or electric lines are nearby. On many cars the lines are hidden under the still bar which would not make them visible even if properly color coded. Thanks for the suggestion!
Good you see you are ok-ish. That had to hurt for the next week.
Make that months ;)
That's great analysis. You guys are lucky to be here. I'm interested in your analysis of the broken clavicle and your opinion that the same outcome would likely have resulted from a hybrid device. I have a different opinion that may be worthwhile for a medical student to consider... Is it possible that it was not the weight of the unrestrained arm that caused the break? I think that the angle of the seat in a rally car being much more upright than in a formula car changes the direction of the forces in an impact... In a rally car, with the HANS device, the weight of the head and helmet moving forward is opposed by the lower braces of the device with the top of the shoulders being the pivot point. In a formula car, because the body angle is much more prostrate, those forces have less opportunity to break the clavicle because they act in a different angle. For this reason I think that it is possible that the hybrid device might not have resulted in this injury. Worth discussing.
Doing research for this video., it looks like in formula cars where they have to use a different angle Hans device, there is a high occurrence of collarbones breaking (seems to be awfully common in formula Vee). And those are single occupant cars where the driver is holding to a wheel so the arms are not moving. From what I understood, in the almost horizontal position they have in those cars, in case of a frontal impact, the forces to stop the body from moving forward are the lap belts, the buttocks compressing in the base of the seat that is angled and the top of the shoulder namely the clavicle. There are actually less forces distributed across the torso compared to a more upright position.
If you look at the 9 point harnesses used in Formula 1, they have 2 sets of straps at different angles above the shoulder but a majority of the impact is actually absorbed by the seat that has an insert molded to the shape of the driver.
Incredibly well researched write-up, thanks Manu. Do you think the data was lost on the Cobb unit or do you think reattaching the chip would provide any useful information?
We tried to put the chip back in place but usually the data is cached and the Accessport does not have a battery backup so as soon as it looses power the data is lost and even sometimes the datalog file gets corrupted if the power loss occurs during a flush to the storage. We have had corrupted data files just from stalling the car after a spin. I was hoping to recover the data from previous runs of the day, trying to work with Cobb to see what can be done.
I live 10 miles away and enjoy a cigar after a Ducati ride to the top.
I know nothing about the data recorder and how it stores data and if it is doing it real time or caching it, but it may be possible to have it repaired and the data recovered. There are many business that offer that kind of service.
We tried to put the chip back in place but usually the data is cached and the Accessport does not have a battery backup so as soon as it looses power the data is lost and even sometimes the datalog file gets corrupted if the power loss occurs during a flush to the storage. We have had corrupted data files just from stalling the car after a spin. I was hoping to recover the data from previous runs of the day, trying to work with Cobb to see what can be done. Cobb had been sponsoring us in the past so they will be the best ones to retrieve any data.
@@FrogRacing thanks for the reply, that sucks kinda sounds like it is in volatile memory.
0:33 i dont know why, but at the first glance i thought u are wearing one of this gigantic chinese hats
kinda like Raiden from Mortal Kombat
We learn from history! Worth colour coding, fuel lines, brake lines, water lines as internationally recognised. Harnesses have become wider to spread the loads and they also give. That is why the belts should be regularly changed in rally cars. That was a hard bump but glad all turns out ok.
Man that's a heavy impact!!
There use to be a drop down from the pavement to the ground but now the ground is level with pavement so you don’t have anything to hold you on that side of road and the rest is physics
Hey there really good video about something we all fear, but need to learn from, quick question the seat mounts, bolted from seat to floor bars , where they Aluminum and was there any damage to those ? Seat mounts are under review here in New Zealand, so real world information is the best information, so any news would be appreciated
The seat mount were steel in this car, they did not crack or showed sign of damage. As the floor geometry was significantly altered by the roots of the tree when it fell on the car, the floor bars had moved and the seat mounts as a result flexed to follow the new position of the floor bars. Once we unbolted the seat mounts from the car they came back to their original shape and they sat straight on the floor (not that we are going to re-use them but they still look good).
We need to redesign the way that we bolt the restraints, if the only saving grace to the frame was the plate used to hold the restraint, what will happen to the occupants when the impact is larger and the bolt and plate are incapable of holding the forces involved?
For cars with weak floors and no reinforcements we usually use a separate bar for the sub-betls (see www.frogracing.us/tech/rally-car-prep/harness-installation for more details). The stock chassis reinforcements are designed to withstand a limited amount of forces, once you exceed that you'll experience more crumpling. Note that this generation of cars was also designed before crash tests started to include offset crashes and this shows in this particular impact.
Wow!
What harnesses are those?
They are the Schroth Flexi 2x2, we have a video about them here: ruclips.net/video/9gahSbkwj8c/видео.html
Thank god there was no fire
But will it buff out?
No it won't, the car has been cut into pieces
Co-driver needs a grab bar, not arm restraints
The codriver has to hold his book of notes and turn the pages, he/she cannot hold a grab bar.
Vermont maple trees don't budge.
They do get moved though :p