“No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient!” (Part 1.) [Re-upload] @ImDemonWolf
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2023
- #vegan #veganism #oysters #sentience #bivalves #precautionaryprinciple
References:
Bivalve anatomy (1): faculty.smcm.edu/wihatch/cours...
Bivalve anatomy (2): bralanca.weebly.com/uploads/2...
Scallop trying to swim away from danger: • Swimming Bay Scallops ...
“Our results provide clear evidence that bivalves are sensitive to changes in predation risk, and adjust their behaviour accordingly.” www.sciencedirect.com/science...
"Bivalves have a cerebral ganglion (brain) that gives rise to..." onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/a...
"The high-level control of escape behaviour resides in the cerebral ganglion.” royalsocietypublishing.org/do...
“Evidence for nociception does exist in aquatic bivalves.” journals.biologists.com/jeb/a...
A range of scientific papers “indicate that bivalves might indeed be sentient”. library.wur.nl/WebQuery/wurpu...
Good analysis of the issues surrounding bivalve sentience:
• Vegans: Stop Lying Abo...
A clam digging into sand (for safety during low tide): • Clam Digs into Sand
Two bivalves fighting:
• fingernail clams fight...
See what they don't want you to see: watchdominion.com
If you like what I do and want to support me 😎✌️
PayPal PayPal.me/twoamvegan
Ko-fi (PayPal or Stripe) ko-fi.com/the2amvegan
Stream labs: streamlabs.com/the2amvegan/tip
Patreon: / the2amvegan
BIG THANKS to my Patreon supporters and anyone who's donated! I really appreciate it! 🙏🙏
Backstory: We’ve touched on the topic of bivalves and sentience on here before - but only from one side. Fellow vegan ImDemonWolf and Vegan Gains have had shorter discussions during VG’s livestreams on bivalves and certain other sea creatures being sentient / vegan to consume or not. Recently ImDemonWolf had a talk with someone who challenges Vegan Gains’ position that it is vegan to consume bivalves. A person reached out to me and suggested I should post it, so I asked ImDemonWolf and he gave the thumbs up!
Original channel: @ImDemonWolf
Link to original video: • No, Vegans Do NOT Eat ...
This is the weight and class of advocacy bivalves and all animals need. Evidence, reason, responsibility-these are what guide our consumption. When you hear them articulated as they are in this video, you want to be responsible, not bow out in endless moral equivocation. Excellent work.
This definitely shed light on a few things I've not considered before, regarding bivalve sentience. Good discussion.
This is a great discussion.
👋
I don't know what to believe anymore. All I know is I'm vegan and I don't eat oysters.
Why eat oysters when Tofu is $1.79 per pack at Whole Foods?
Probably the single most interesting vegan content I've heard in the last year. Well done.
Agreed 👍
The fact that a bivalve actively seals itself up within its shell when threatened, is enough to demonstrate that that creature has a sense of self-preservation.
Excellent point. 👍👍👍
thank you so much for uploading this! I always feel uncomfortable when I see people argue about this as if somehow it's a reasonable position for a 'vegan' to eat these animals because of some weird nit-picks or quibbles.
I'm not too knowledgable about this topic but their behaviour always suggested to me that indeed there is something, someone I would consider an individual, a 'soul' in these animals as well! insects like ants exhibit those behaviours already - how could we view amazingly complicated and unique animals like oysters somehow as just 'biological machines' then?
we should never forget literally one of the basic rules in biology that we all learned back then in school: there are 3 main lifeforms that live in the world that is visible to our eye: animals, plants and mushrooms.
animals are animals. and we should never harm *any* animal without any reason. people who eat oysters or similar creatures are not vegan in my opinion but I assumed this might be a hot take since so 'many' popular vegan channels apparently preached something different.
Thanks for commenting, Justin! ✌️
I know you are speaking for many reading this.
Is it OK then holocaust conscious beings that cannot be classified as animals? Can you please explain to me the concept of harming an unconscious being
@@Katzenheld
What is being determined here are exactly that the holocaust going on regarding bivalves is unjust and not valid. Another thing is that nothing should be violated, conscious or not, when not essentially necessary.
@@Katzenheld
Why would you even think that, how do you figure that?
@@KatzenheldIf, in sparing conscious beings the full agonies of our consumption, our remaining 'harm' is confined only to unconscious beings, we have made real progress. If we are using the notion of 'harm' (not suffering) to unconscious beings to draw a parallel with harm to conscious beings, we must ask why? Do we want to continue harming the fully conscious as well as 'harming' the unconscious, in a perverse act of 'consistency?' Or should we ask why it is that 'edible' animals and not human victims, inspire such interest in every other type of harm apart from that inflicted on the organisms that suffer the most from it-animals bred for slaughter. If we must frame plant-exclusive eating as a plant holocaust then let us be 'guilty' only of that, not the holocaust of organisms we know will suffer the most.
12:04
Zzzzzzzzzzzactly! This point cannot be overstated
Appreciate the variety 2 AM! Interesting topic. Ultimately, if we're not sure if something could be harmful or not, general rule of thumb should be not to engage.
Hey, you're welcome! 👊 Yes, I agree 💯
Excellent points........ thank you making this 👍
💚💚💚
💚🙌
Yeah vegangains bivalves argument never held water to me.
Vegan Gains rarely knows what he’s talking about. The only time he’s right is when he’s parroting Dr. Avi. Even when he loses debates, instead of conceding he just says “I need to talk to Dr. Avi about it”. Pathetic
I'd be super interested in seeing Demonwolf debate one of the bivalve eaters
The guy with the PhD is not DemonWolf, did you mean him?
@2AMVegan oooh right, yeah whoever is mainly speaking would be good to debate the opposition
@@vegangaze👋
This is really compelling. Previously I thought mussells are neutral to kill (just like plants & mushrooms)...
Vegan Black Metal Chef had spoken about this and he study on this filed.
Great points!
Discussions like this restore my hope in the vegan community. R/vegan is toxic in regards to this topic. I do not need proof of sentience to leave a creature alone. Science says that we can be healthy eating 100% plants, and there are plant and fungus-based alternatives for practically everything, so there are no reasons to harm animals outside of survival situations.
Just finished watching part 2 to this video, and I'm happy to see genuine information to clear the air regarding bivalve sentience. Even when I didn't know much about bivalve sentience, I thought the idea of "vegans" justifying eating them was strange since we're supposed to be pro-liberation of animals regardless of where they fall on the sentience spectrum. Not only that, but sentience being the only trait people determine moral consideration for is also strange to me. Great videos and happy to see you posting again vegen fren!
Heey Mike! Good to see you here! 👊
Yeah, he's done an amazing job!! 🔥 and I totally agree with you 💯💯
Thanks for commenting!! 🙌
Awesome commentary on this subject. I’ve never been conflicted on whether to eat bivalves, I just don’t. Hopefully this will sway some of the vegans who do to stop!
I agree! Thanks for commenting! 🙌
Interesting
Ive recently gone from vegetarian to vegan and this was sonething i was thinking of and dudnt know what to make of it. Really glad i stumbled across this 🌱
Niiice! 🙌
When in doubt throw it out.
pretty awesome!
This is black belt sentience advocacy. Leave dem bivalves alone already.
It's all a spectrum.. so it's a beginning stage of brain development, they are animals period.
Some people call it a “pre-brain”, ie it’s a ganglia that is still in the process of evolving to become a brain. To me that’s an indication that they probably have some level of consciousness, and that’s reason enough for me to avoid eating them.
interresting, they also have other organs. you gonna upload the reaction to the joey vs tristan debate?
Ikr right, IMO just ignorant to ignore all of this and not even give them the benefit of the doubt.
Nah man, I've decided to stop posting VG's content. Will make it official soon! ✌️
Live in constant compassion and understanding that ALL ANIMALS/beings want to live and
not be slaughtered for human pleasure. Humans do not want to be killed for cannibals to
eat either. Regardless of how "nicely" any animal is raised, none are "happy" in the bloody slaughterhouse or want to be killed at an early age for our meals. This is overlooked by the humans who believe in "happy" meat, or happy slaughter. It does not exist.
Exactly right. Well said!
Good thing I never cared for seafood.
Great content; also in part 2!
@@thenayancat8802
Nociceptive Behavior and Physiology of Molluscs: Animal Welfare Implications
From an article in ILAR journal / National Research Council, Institute of Laboratory Animal Resources · January 2011
Immediate and longer-term neuronal and behavioral re-
sponses (including nociceptive memory and simple associa-
tive learning) can be mediated entirely by a single small
ganglion, such as the abdominal ganglion in Aplysia, prov-
ing that these effects do not need complex neural structures
(e.g., Antonov et al. 2003; Illich and Walters 1997). Some
gastropods, which have simple nervous systems compared to
cephalopods, exhibit changes in state with apparent func-
tional similarities to emotional states, as illustrated by “con-
ditioned fear” and “self-stimulation” in Aplysia and Helix,
respectively (Balaban and Chase 1991; Walters et al. 1981).
Given the capabilities of relatively simple molluscan
nervous systems, and if a key to the experience of pain is the
size and complexity of the nervous system, one must seri-
ously consider the possibility that cephalopods can experi-
ence some form of pain. The most complex and behaviorally
sophisticated of molluscs, cephalopods have vastly more
complex central nervous systems, with up to 500 million
neurons, distinctive internal divisions of the brain, specialized
integrative regions where diverse sensory inputs are pro-
cessed (Boycott and Young 1955), and dense, specialized in-
nervation of the periphery (Hochner et al. 2006). If subjective
pain experience requires a minimal level of network com-
plexity and processing power, these animals’ brains might
approach that level.
Dude, why did you delete all the Vegan Gains' videos?
They're not deleted, you can find them under "Playlists"
2AM vegan we miss you 😢
It's absurd that people will show videos of oysters moving and responding to touch as evidence of sentience. I have grasses and other plants in my area which do the same thing, retreating, closing up, and moving away from the toucher. That doesn't mean these grasses and plants feel pain or are sentient. It also doesn't matter about getting caught up in semantics about what we define as a brain. The bare fact of the matter is that oysters, and many other mussels, are as unlikely to be sentient, conscious, or experience pain as a mushroom is.
If you insist on people calling themselves ostrovegans or bivalvegans, and yourself a holier than thou pure vegan, then whatever.
But quit pretending like people who eat oysters, especially so they have healthy B12 and DHA, are the same as people who eat cows and chickens and drink milk and such.
Like wow I can't believe you guys eat mushrooms because they "lack being you".
I generally like VG and Nutrivore, but it always comes off as super arrogant when they just make huge assertions about less complex animals neurobiology and their potential sentience (especially when even the best scientists are still just spitballing different hypotheses about how sentience manifests). It honestly seems absurd to not take the precautionary principle as a bare minimum when you're someone who claims to care about the rights and well-being of sentient beings.
👍 Whole food plant based for the environment and health; vegan for the victims!
Please tell vegan gains that Shawn baker just made a video about him hahahahaha
Hahah! It's been a long time coming. VG has been shitting on Baker for years now, I'm surprised he hasn't made a video until now. I'm pretty sure VG will just do his "Whatever, I don't care" while clicking through it ...but hopefully he will address it, because it's messed up to use one vegan and talk about mental illness being the reason when we have so many people suffering world wide.
Btw, what's Shawn's skincare routine?? I want to avoid it at all costs.
where are all the vg videos reacting to frank?
Under the playlists tab
The second person is confused. How is discriminating based on features, that are not species, speciesist? You could argue the same then for plant species.
You could argue that if you wanted, but people don't eat only plants on morphological grounds. They do it because of sentience and because plants don't have it. Yes, this could still be called discrimination of some sort but it would be of a very different kind. Rather than choosing complex organisms such as mammals you know, by being turned into food, will suffer the most, you have no choice but to elect the least complex organisms-plants. They represent the last resort which their appearance has nothing to do with arriving at.
It's not speciesism, it's ableism
Lobsters have integrated brain regions… bivalves do not.
What difference does that make, the nerve cells, wherever they are placed, are functioning as a brain.
@@Charlotte.4Chow are they functioning as a brain?
@@Katzenheld
From the GPT, and also double checked...
"Bivalves, such as clams and oysters, do not have a centralized brain like crustaceans or other more complex animals. However, they do have a decentralized nervous system that consists of a network of neurons throughout their body. This network of neurons allows bivalves to sense their environment and respond to stimuli"
It's kind of an "overall" brain, on the way to being centralized. And we humans even have neurons in the heart and gut that individually functions as autonomous mini-brains but mostly/mainly communicate back and forth with the main brain in our heads.
By “integrated brain regions” you mean that the ganglia in lobsters are connected up? That's also the case with bivalves.
@@Katzenheld What @VeganDawn. meant to say was that cerebral gangllia/brain of the bivalve are also “integrated” and functions as a brain by sending neuron signals from its brain to all of its body and vice versa thus making decisions to run, hide, fight, etc. basically perform basic animal instinctual functions necessary to survive and avoid negative stimuli/pain.
💯