Drengskapr (Viking Manliness) and Thorstein Staff-Struck
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2017
- The heroes of the Norse sagas are concerned with maintaining their reputation for drengskapr (manliness). In this video, we take a look at the Tale of Thorstein Staff-Struck (Þorsteins þáttr stangarhǫggs), which illustrates many aspects of this ideal.
Jackson Crawford, Ph.D.: Sharing real expertise in Norse language and myth with people hungry to learn, free of both ivory tower elitism and the agendas of self-appointed gurus. Visit jacksonwcrawford.com/ (includes bio and linked list of all videos).
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My assistant Stella informs me that many people ask about the meaning of ‘drengr’ in the Modern Scandinavian languages, especially Danish, where indeed the modern word (‘dreng’) usually has only the unmarked sense of “boy.” While you can occasionally find it used like this in Old Norse (at least one time by Snorri, for example), the general meaning in Old Norse, especially in poetry and on memorial runestones, is the specific meaning discussed here, of an individual who lives in keeping with Norse society’s high expectations of reckless but honor-bound courage.
Hello Jackson Crawford!😊
May I ask, is there an Old English Equivalent to the word Drengskapr?😊
I have been practice Old English and have been unable to find it’s cognate, if there is one that is.
Thank you for all of your work and dedication Jackson😊
An interesting note: In Sweden the word "dräng" simply means "farmhand", it can also be used while describing males, almost like saying "the boys" in english.
In German, "Mensch" just means "Person" or "Man," while in Yiddish, "Mensch" very specifically means a stand-up, honorable, kind person.
In modern danish you still have an ecco of the old meaning when you say ‘ han er en god dreng’ ( he is a good ‘dreng’), meaning that the boy or youngster is honest, trustworthy, hard working without vices, a drengr
"Of course, he doesn't like that. So he kills him."
The "matter of fact" way you told that made me burst out in laughter. Well told!
Reminds me of a drunken time in my twenties when we were playing at sticks, hitting each others sticks. I cracked my friend right across the face on purpose and we proceeded to beat the crap out of each other with sticks. It eventually hurt enough for us to agree to stop and we ended the night laughing, drunk, and bleeding, still the best of friends.
Glimpses in to Norse society like this are my favorite parts of your channel!
So when Thorsteinn takes Bjarni's sword, and then gives it back, would contemporaneous listeners to this story understand that as being a kind of chivalry? Like, Thorsteinn has Bjarni at his mercy *and wanted to make sure he knew that* but didn't take advantage of that because it would be cowardly?
So taking the sword, talking about it, giving it back, was Thorsteinn's way of *proving* that he's Drengr? Trying to imagine the lesson from that part of the story.
Yes but also the sword it not only a weapon but a prized possession to compliment. Maybe like a car today for men.
Not a chance. Being manipulative like that would be ARGR.
More than that - Bjarni knew Thorsteinn was a Drengr, he calls him that, that's why he wasn't afraid to leave his sword, that's why he didn't react when Thorsteinn walks down to him and picks up the sword. These men liked each other, they respected each other, they didn't want to fight. They were forced to duel to silence the nagging tongues of old women, neither wanted to kill the other. Both were hoping to force the other to yield without actually doing any damage. Hence replacing the chewed shields. They were both chewed, even though Bjarni plays it off as disadvantaging him, that's just for face. Both are replaced. To reduce the chance of injury.
Dr Crawford does a great job of narrating this with added info, but one thing he doesn't discuss is the significance of the chewed shields. Sometimes in duels that were intended to be non-lethal the participants would start with a set number of shields, and were permitted to simply halt the action and grab a new one when one was too chewed. The idea as far as I can follow would be that you're not targeting the opponent directly, you're *just* trying to chew his shields, force him to go through them all, force him to surrender when he loses his last shield and you still have one. The viking-age sword was not designed for fencing, it's difficult to use in defense, it's intended for use with a shield, the shield does defense and the sword offense. So the way I read this story, it's significant that they fight a long time, with breaks and replacement shields and so on, because that strongly implies that neither one was willing to hurt the other one. They just chop at each others shields and talk until a way comes to them to make peace, that the greater culture and society would let them live with.
Here before the flood of people from the interview you just did with him
When checking my notifications, at very first glance, I thought the part in brackets said Viking Manatees. The reality of the video was extremely interesting and quite evocative nonetheless, despite the lack of brave, reckless and honourable marine mammals.
Gareth MacColl 😆 best comment here yet
Oh, please let there be Viking manatees!
Gareth MacColl Ahhh now I want viking manatees!!! Even though I'm pretty sure it's way to cold up there for them but what do it know??
THESE ARE LIKE BED TIME STORIES FOR NORTH MEN. DIGGIN THE HEL OUT OF IT. THANK YEW GARE
Well if you grow up in scandinavia or iceland today you are quite likely to hear these stories told as bed time stories, I remember being told the stories of the old gods by my father as I was to sleep and my mother would like to tell me about the small folk and other spirits and thor whenever there was thunder. although from having spoken to friends it seems I may have grown up "more norse" than most in sweden.
thank yew bjornhofn. that's great to know. jackson is sure bringing these yarns back to life for us.
take care buddy. gare
Same here, norse history and myth was a big part of my bedtime ritual as a child, having my father and sometimes mother read from an anthology which I still own today.
Björnhöfn too bad you guys have to read your kids stories about Sharia and Mohammed for bed time stories now
Can't you just shut up about things you have no knowledge about, Tom? You know, that comment is what the channel owner has people to not post? Nordic countries are non religious, and we regard freedom of religions to be important, and have no exception for no religion. And that is what any Drengskapr man would know and respect. But I guess you are just an Argr man.
This story and the drengr ideal reminds me of the deadly conflicts atop the cliffs of insanity in The Princess Bride :)
"This might have been a better comeback in medieval Iceland." HA
This is in accordance with the principles in the germanic law tradition - compensation or retaliation.
This is exactly why I love old norse culture and language. It all started with reading a book with old icelandic stories, when I was a kid. They mixed christian influences with stories of trolls and faries. I then as I grew up lost this book and on my search for it found the eddas. I don't believe in the old norse pantheon, but I love the stories. There is something magically intriguing about them. They are simple, yet have deep meanings, they are old and tell me about what live, maybe even of my own ancestors, was like. There is so much beauty in the stories that I cannot really explain. I guess the harsh weather and beautiful landscapes of the north made them dream and their harsh lifes demanded a great taste of humor as compensation.
They are indeed fascinating, specially considering they have useful lessons even for us today.
Some of my family comes from Denmark and reading the tales certainly helped me connect with these roots.
You should reach out to The Art of Manliness guy for a podcast or guest article. Interesting stuff
I agree!
Of all of Dr. Crawford's videos, this one may be my favorite. The story is humorous and heartwarming in the end, and the rain adds perfectly to the storytelling.
To date, three people who viewed this video are argr.
At 6:02 you talk about Ranvig and mention the repeating idea of the power women/wives/mothers have to influence or spark conflict by manipulating their male counterparts. A video on the historical evidence of that would be really interesting.
Dr. Crawford, that is one of the best stories that I have ever heard! It really does give us a good peek into the mentality and morality of the Norse society of that time. I am going to share this excellent video with all of my friends. What I get from this story is that it was a traditional honor society, which means that all the men were "walking on eggshells" all the time in order to avoid giving offense to another man. It must have been a tense society, which also means that it must have been a polite society - much more polite than ours - out of necessity.
It's High Noon
I feel that the word 'Stoic' is the most powerful one here. Thanks Jackson I'm really enjoying your content :D
From a fellow Coloradoan, welcome home to Colorado Dr. Crawford. I greatly enjoy your contributions to our expanding knowledge of the Norse peoples.
You have opened up an entire world for me. I really like your videos!!!
Read "Thorstein the Staff Struck" in university literature class. Great story.
Great story, doc. Can't wait for the next one.
This is really wonderful, thank you!
Thank you very much
(From a fan)
I've learned a lot from your channel keep up the good work
I absolutely love these recounting of these stories that you do, and I've said this before and I'll say it again: Your channel is red with gold!
Women are very often drivers in honor cultures, it is not just the sagas. We like to think of women as passive victims in honor cultures, but this is just not the case. They are as active participants as the men are. How could they not be, they are part of the culture as much as the men.
And they had a stronger position back than in the later Christian times.
@@sarahgray430 More manipulative than badass.
Wow. Great story and excellent telling.
One aspect of the importance of drengskapr, was that the courts (thingr) of the old Norse culture didn't enforce their rulings, they just ruled who was in the right. Enforce the ruling you had to do yourself, so knowledge in how to fight with and without weapons was very important for all the population in pre-christian Scandinavia. If you didn't fight for your rights, you would be taken advantage of.
Source: Vikingarnas stridskonst (Viking martial arts) by Lars Magnar Enoksen.
Yes and no. You could nominate a champion to take care of the ruling for you if you were outmatched or unequal to the opponent etc.
Stallion fights? I think stallions are quite prone to fight without any prodding. A dangerous game, and not only for the horses: It’s a pretty interesting story. I think it is fascinating that open killing is not murder. I remember reading that the Icelanders would dress in their best (“blue”) clothes to go kill someone honourably.
@Tina
Literally "dressed to kill".
I always groan at the women in these stories who goad their men to fight, but I try to understand it in context. If the men in your family are perceived to be weak, you and your younguns will be in considerable danger. Does anyone reading this know of a comparable story from the Old West, with women goading their men to fight each other? (I can’t remember one.)
There is a funny moment it the John Wayne movie the searchers where two blokes are fighting over a woman's hand in marriage. She is looking at with with both excitement and concern, and notices that John Wayne's character has seen the excitement in her eyes. She covers for her self "Oh! Can't you make them stop?". He says back "Why should I stop it, you started it."
I find this such a beautiful glimpse into that mindset.
I definitely could see this story made into a movie set in the Old West. You are definitely on to something with the relationship between Old Norse and the American West. There's a spare quality to the actions and storytelling that are so similar.
Thank you to Matthew Colville for pointing out this video!
Thank for that it's similar to story of battle between cu chulainn and diarmuid from the Tain Bo Cuailgne here in that both respected each as former friends men at arms etc healing each other wounds at the end of each days dual until the end
This is a great treatment of a fantastic tale
Good video, I really enjoyed your explanation, I became a fan thank you
I love these videos
Excellent. Even, appropriately, dealing with the rain.
Thanks for this insight into how honor based societies work. I would be interested to hear about straight speaking and keeping one's word fits into drengskapr...
Good story. Thanks from Iceland
Could we safely say how common, more or less, killing was in medieval Iceland? Was it nearly an everyday occurrence, or does it only seem that way because people don’t write stories about peaceful non-events?
"Holmgang" = Norse Dual
I love your voice!
Gallows humor, or dark humor. It is the best kind. That was a great video.
Great lecture.
Colorado is lucky to have such a scholarly man
Outstanding thanks
Drengskapr reminds me of Ser Arthur allowing the Smiling Knight to have a new sword during a fight. "The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it." Jaime VIII, A Storm of Swords
You should do the Tale of Audn from the Westfjords!
Badass. Honour societies had something we have lost today.
Ups, didn't hear the story out to the end before commenting.... Aye, it rings a bell of how honourable opponents did call an end to needless fighting, so it's an outstandig tale of how decent folk should behave in "siccan stramash"... All important how not to lose once face in thightly knitted societies, where your good fame is all important. A good lesson to us all... (it's called sportsmanship nowadays or fair play, methinks...)
wow. incredible story
Came back to this video because this story really captures the downsides of honor culture. Both Thorstein and Barni seem like reasonable people willing to let some insults slide for the sake of living peaceful lives, but they're forced into violence by the expectations of their society. The story has a happy ending where they work out an accommodation satisfying to both of them, but it also sounds like things were on the verge of a never-ending blood feud.
If a man was insulted, called "argr" or maybe something of a lesser degree in the early years of Christianity, would it still be acceptable to kill to avenge your honor? Or were those kind of beliefs tossed by the wayside as their beliefs shifted?
From what I can recall, at least to my current understanding, it seems that the shift to Christianity in northern Europe wasn't so much as sudden or total, as more of a slow shift over a few hundred years until it became the norm, and then even a little longer yet until complete change. Much like with Rome actually, but this time rather than beginning in the armies with recently slaves turned citizens, it was more of both Christians moving north, and missionaries. And it was not always violent and they seemed to live side by side for quite some time with acceptance on both parts, but early on it was the Celtic form of Christianity, the southern Catholics coming to 'convert the pagans' were the ones who seemed to be treated with scorn, but I imagine that most would have been turned back rather than tortured and killed, but alas, the human condition is complex and I sure as heck was not there to witness any of that, simply someone fascinated in reading up on history in nearly all forms.
But to answer this to the best of my understanding would be that, yes. I assume that in the earlier days of a Christian majority, that this sort of behavior and lifestyle would still have been very much acceptable and possibly even still normal practice. Old habits die hard type deal.. Same with a lot of things, beliefs, traditions and all. And I'm not implying that anything like that is inherently bad. It seems that in old times, settling issues in a relatively violent and chaotic society and world as a whole yet trying to remain as peaceful and respectable as possible, seems, well. Quite respectable. I actually love the way that this story is told here in the video. It taught me a fair bit and gave me a lot of insight further into the culture.
I can't really speak to Iceland, but in much of Western Europe dueling was only formally banned after the Renaissance. That's more than a millennium of Christianity where killing someone over an insult was at least possible.
I think paradoxically it was banned much earlier in Iceland because it was causing lots of social problems. Possibly even in snorri's time. I have a vague recollection of it being a twelfth or thirteenth century thing.
ah i remember this story my dad told it to me it many years ago
I’ll looking to research the Viking raids on the part of France which will become Normandy. Do you have any videos on that subject? If not, I would appreciate it if you were to cover it in future videos. If you can, could you tell me about any resources I might use to research the topic.
I gotta admit, I am glad I live on a culture where, for a less than mortal insult, I can just say, "Oh, so-and-so is an asshole, I won't have anything to do with him." On the other hand, there's a person I wish I could have a LEGAL duel with - at least to first blood!
But that's not the way of the modern world, is it?
I'm interested in any information you would know about the dueling customs the Vikings had, specifically the " Holmgangr" or " Einvigi" are these historical or dramatized stories? Any truth to the rules. I'm also a big fan of Hnefatafl and Tablut I would like to see a video on any other Viking era games.
Are there more overlays between western tradition and the norse? I would like to know more.
And is there any other part in the Edda or sagas about horse fights this has me cracking up xD
Horses where also sacred to the God Freyr and they kept horses that no one was allowed to ride that they sacrificed to Freyr
I understand your concerns about not wishing to become a norse pagan. I was being tempted about becoming one myself, however, like you said, it may have nothing to do with who I am in terms of my cultural heritage, and being a religion that was not practiced throughout the ages, had a hiatus. I have been a Christian before but today I consider it to be too dogmatic, one has to have certain beliefs and I don't want to feel obliged to believe anything at all, so I do consider myself a pagan in the sense that I believe in a higher being in a way that is natural to man without having any dogmatic beliefs, I believe man does need religion but religion shouldn't blind him and it doesn't do that if taken in the pagan way, then again my ancestors became Christians and I know nothing of their paganism before they were christianized, and it is likely they had many practices I would disagree with, that's why I believe that I can get whatever I find good in other religions and just believe in higher being, and while I think every man has to create their own morality, it should be based on existing systems, it shouldn't be created on the vacuum.
Do you have a translation of this story in one of your books?
Couldn't help but compare drengskapr with Samurai's Bushido.
Shin Kansen
Well it has aspects of chivalry eastern and european. However chivalry (also the bushido) was nearly never taken seriously. I guess it is the same thing with vikongs. There were knights, samurai and vikings who were very honorable men but most likely they were killed real quick by less honorable men. Because in the end it comes down to the fact that humans are only humans. Nearly no samurai would commit ritual suicide if taken hostage, knights feasted while the peasents starved and vikings most probably would rather go for the quick kill.
Conan Cimmerian, did not know that. Thanks.
Conan. The word was not common until that time and the concept formalized; but it was based on old laws and ideals of the samurai.
Fenris, yes Vikings would because they are pirates and raiders; but this is about northmen in general not just when they happened to go on raids. Within the Scandinavian society laws where strict and reputation and honour important. If they went to war or Viking it was a different story.
Linda Liljecrona I can agree on that. Sorry I tend to mix up the terms
What saga was this one in?
We need more drengskapur in this time
Moral of the story: Real Drengr don't gossip.
I came across your site by accident a year or so ago, and enjoy the education you give though at times it is much too cerebral for me.....my passion doesn't go that deep. Really enjoyed this story though, and having grown up watching and appreciating old westerns (I'm from the south), gotta say....you are such an interesting mix of old west, old Norse, AND a professor, AND dang easy on the eyes!! Not to mention that amazingly deep voice that immediately makes most women perk up and pay attention to the testosterone that just moved into their little space. Thank you for sharing your knowledge sir.
"dreng" also means boy in danish
Which saga is this in?
Drengr, could it be rated to the modern german "Drang", = Urge?
Nowadays Dreng means Boy in Danish x
In Sweden it is a farm worker
The comments that women often encouraged duels makes one wonder what the women’s fate would be like if their spouse was considered weak? My thought is that she would be fair game for any stronger male in the area. She had an interest in her spouse being strong.
I think you might be on to something here
Lmfao, this story was awesome.
damn. this story got two times so exciting, i thought someone will get killed, then it resolves into a peaceful, funny solution
Peaceful? Three men killed because of an accident? ;-)
Men? Three argr were killed, nobody cared. :P
(The first spoke with two tongues, a the other two were gossiping)
They were the same people..it would be different if they were fighting foreign invaders yes?
In modern Danish 'Dreng' means boy :)
Is the pronunciation of "á" correct? You pronounce it as Swedish "å". It was from the beginning a long "a". In Danish and in Norwegian it was written "aa" till the 20th century. Had the transformation from a long "a" to "å" already happened in Viking time???
This isn't Viking age Icelandic, though. The sagas were written down much later (1200's or so) when Old Icelandic á was pronounced like a Modern Swedish "å" (because it had merged with the u-umlauted version of the old long a, ǫ́). The reconstructed pronunciation is based on when the sagas were written down (1200's) and not when they're supposed to take place (900's-1000's). It should be noted that the rounding of old long a happened earlier in Icelandic than in Swedish - in some dialects of Swedish the rounding hasn't even happened yet!
He's a professional historical linguist specialising in Old Norse. I think he knows what he's doing.
In modern danish "dreng" means simply "boy", and "-skab" would be a suffix similar to "-hood" for example. So "drengskab", although a constructed noun, would be immediately understood as "boyhood".
It's interesting how both "drengr" and "knicht" or "Cnict" - becoming knight, or "knecht" in german seems to have transitioned in meaning from something to do with a fighting man, into meaning something along the lines of boy or youth, both. "Knægt" in modern danish would be either an old-timey slang for a boy or youth, or an antiquated word for a typically young man, employed at a farm.
Knecht in German is a farm hand (at least until 70 years ago or so)
'-schap' in Dutch. Knecht means servant in Dutch.
"This might have been a better comeback in medieval Iceland." lol
LMAO Horse-Fights. Michael Vick-ings!
Could it be that since it is in literature this was seen as a societal ideal which people were supposed to emulate? Why tell this story unless it were not always the case? It seems like a story with a moral which was not always present in Iceland.
Or a story to learn from, as a child. To know what real drengskapr and argr was like. And that is was looked up on as something to be.
sad that after all of his drengr deeds, his name still is "stick beat" XD
Weell, having been in martial arts, sports fencing, and german students fencing ("Schläger"/ Mensur), I can easily attest to the "getting carried off" in male, testosteron/adrenine driven situations of competition (combat) that makes males (AND females!!!) overreact... Whoever is without sin may cast the first stone. After all we are all mammals with animal instuncts, and that makes all the sagas so relatable to our modern "civilised" lifes, does it not? In fact we are not so much afar in behaviour from our ancestors as we might like to believe, but by modern penal laws... Indeed the layer of civilacation is rather frail...
Women are the same today.
9 argr disliked this video
"Farmers at fisticuffs."
Could this code be a representation of what the DSM-5 refers to as "Aspergers" in the sense that the society was very sensitive about social situations? Or, are WE as a people less accustomed to being able to pick out the subtle ties that should bind us in social situations in the "modern age"?
My main question really is this: was the "Bjarni" a way to help survival, or was it something that came out of misunderstanding social situations and social communications? Anyways, very interesting and thank you so much for your insights.
Six argr down-voted this video!
I know you’re straight, dude, but you are one HAWT drengr.
(I don’t think I need to decline drengr because it’s a predicate adjective.)
You always have Good info and i like this RUclips show and the rune discussion etc.
But seriously this Viking culture?! Ugh! Rugged individualism - so glad that is not as prevalent in every society! very red meme / purple meme in the Spiral Dynamics analysis. After all this info, i think I’ll look forward to seeing enhanced efforts toward community, peace, more magick and a matriarch society at some point rise to power :)
Behind every strong kind hearted man there is a hardheaded shrew of a woman. I so dislike that, but not because I think it didn't happen, but because it did, and does. Kind, strong men deserve kind, strong women.
Nordfront sent me here.
Welcome, as long as you leave the politics out.
I'm proud to be soft and alive 😂
The average coward these days couldn't comprehend this story.
Norsemen sound like Klingons