In other words, Thor is the reason thunder exists -- Thor causes thunder as a consequence of his existence, but his "job" is not to make thunder happen. It is a force of nature emerging from Thor's adventures.
Germanic cultures we’re animistic, animism would have thunder as the physical manifestion of Thor and Thor is the intelligence and life behind that storm. Thor isn’t some red headed man riding through the sky nor does actually have adventures. The story’s you have are just stories made up to either teach lessons or to explain a observation. It really seems Americans struggle with this concept
The problem is not with you conveying information, the problem is people not wanting to understand what you are saying. They are more interested in what they get told by the TV series and other Modern Viking Media. We see this as Viking Reenactors who regularly have members of the public tell us (not ask us) about things they see in the Modern Viking Media. You're doing a great job and you are a HUGE help for us with our studies/research in our Living History and Reenactment. Thank you!
This problem is exacerbated by the very thin line, perception-wise in the eyes of the public, between living history folks and (let's call them) Vikings-the-tv-show cosplayers. The latter are PERFECTLY FINE, I've met and enjoyed the company of many of them, but much like the TV show itself they distort and obfuscate evidence-based attempts at re-enactment. They also, in my experience, vastly outnumber those of us trying to stick to evidence based re-enactment and living history.
Honestly we're so lucky with the Icelanders writing so much down from their culture. When I hear we only get snippets from folklore in Celtic and Slavic cultures I realize this. This video really made me hyper aware of the Indo-European connection, thank you!
Both wrote their culture down, most of it was destroyed, the celts genocided by the romans and later celts having all their centers of learning burned down because of vikings.
The thing about oak trees, as I’ve understood it, is that they are robust enough to survive getting struck by lightning - which was rightfully perceived as impressive.
@@grindsaur At least in central Europe in the alps in the german speaking areas it is like that. Proven, old farmsteads (in scattered settlements) and hamlets with an age of up to 900 to 1000 years show this pattern.
Hello, just wanted to say I love your videos. Speaking of thunder-gods... my family are Croatian immigrants to North America. We were raised very catholic, but when I was a kid and there were particularly fierce thunderstorms, my mother would tell me a story that it was St. Elijah making the thunder and lightning, that he was enraged that his brother hid something of his (gifts, or a tool or something). When I became an adult, I developed an interest in history and mythology and was surprised when I learned the Christians converted Perun into St. Elijah. So, I believe my mom was just telling me a folktale about Perun that had been passed down orally for perhaps thousands of years, without even realizing it. Wild as it sounds.
Same in Serbia, I was raised as an Orthodox Christian. My family moved to Australia. We have Christian holidays that used to be pagan in origin. Vidovdan and Đurđevdan are two examples. Best wishes from 🇦🇺
“All the persuasive abilities of a box turtle” better be the title of Dr. Crawford’s post-retirement little book of wisdom and reflection on his life and career
"Milna" is a pretty well-known word (though rarely used these days, might be considered archaic) in Latvian, meaning "mace" or "heavy cudgel". Thank you for pointing out the connection between it and "Mjǫllnir"!
I have some experience in botany in connection to forestry and spent a lot of time in European forests as by trade, but also just because it's my favorite place to be. Oak is definitely not the most prone tree to being struck by lightning, but there is certainly a connection. Oak is probably the toughest and one of the thickest trees in Europe. It gets struck somewhat less than pine, for example, because chance of a lighting strike mainly correlates with height. However, it is prone to surviving said strikes, developing distinctive and impressive "scars", whereas most other thinner or softer trees tend to be just obliterated or burned completely.
Interestingly, in later (1800's) Scandinavian folklore, a sort of residual Thor is often hinted at with the byname/kenning "Trumslagaren" (The Drummer), and lightning is sometimes called "trumpinnar" (drumsticks). This is usually talked about by trolls, as inherently heathen begins (it would of course be mildly taboo for Christian Scandinavians to speak about thunder in a heathen fashion in their own words), and always in the context of them fearing to be struck by his drumsticks.
It was often more overt than that. I remember a testimony where a crowd of Swedish peasants were asked about the earliest people from before the flood and one answered "Tor and Friya?".
I often hear that Thor was a God associated with farmers, if so could that point to him being a storm god as well seeing that rain is vital in most places with agriculture and lightning often accompanies rain
Gods of thunder are also storm gods, especially indo European ones. Since storms bring rain, he would also be the God of rain and therefore associated with farmers. Just like Indra.
I know you don't read comments but I wanted to say I could hear those thrushes loud and clear, it was such a delight as I thought they were Evening Thrushes like what we have up in the PNW! It's a very nostalgic sound for me and added a lovely touch to your video. Hope to hear more birds alongside you in future videos :)
My kids and I still say “labas perkunas” when we hear thunder, something we picked up travelling in Lithuania! No idea why this one overheard phrase stuck!
The same name also made it's way into the Balto-Finnic languages with various pagan meanings. In Finnish the term later became identified with the biblical Satan and remains with us to this day in the ubiquitous swear word "perkele".
Thank you for this wonderful video of Thor’s names. Other than for alliteration, I always wondered why Thor was called “Pig-Rider” when his cart is driven by goats.
But if Fjorgynn is actually Njord, then it makes more sense. His kin often rode boars and would make Thor half-brother to the famous boar-riders Frey and Freya.
In a way, the norse myths have an undercurrent where Thor and Freyr and Baldur and other gods are the same. Odin is called "masked one" and many other names. Each god is part of a pantheon. They are just one face of a bigger holy power we can only measure through glimpses in our mortal lives.
The cold climate in Iceland makes Thunder very rare, almost absent - which I think explains why Icelandic sources don't mention Thors connection with Thunder. Different story in Mainland Scandinavia, where Thunder is seen and heard quite common.
ABsolutely stunned by this video. The word for thunder in my native Bulgarian is the same as in russian (similiar slavic languages) and it really is a cognate to Mjolnir which is something that never would have occured to me. These videos are very very educational and make me realise more and more how all languages really have the same roots, which is something that we hear often but can never trully understand without thinking about it a lot.
Even as kid (growing up in the rural great Basin) I developed a healthy respect for lightning 30 years working in the backcountry has only reinforced that.
Thank you for making these videos and keeping it academic rather than pretending to be some sort of mystic or prophet. I never had an interest in Norse mythology until I happened across this channel, now I'm working my way through a used copy of the Prose Edda that I picked up.
Thor is a version of Thorn, Thorn, the rune, is associated with danger and pain, the horns of a aurochs, or the tusks of a boar. And also storms, which are both dangerous for men, but also beneficial as far as a harvest 😉
Vigja - is that verb surviving in modern Swedish viga, which refers to marrying, sanctifying a priest, and similar. Holy water is vigvatten, vigd jord is consecrated earth. Maybe the core meaning is sanctify, consecrate?
The God Vé (as in Woden, Vili & Vé). The name stemming from Proto-Germanic *wīhōn, itself from the adjective *wīhaz, meaning 'holy'. A related noun, *wīhan ('sanctuary'), can also be reconstructed on the basis of Old Norse vé and Old Swedish vi ('sanctuary') and is indeed the root of the modern swedish word vig.
I think the part about oaks was quite interesting. In my region of northern Germany, there are the "Baumberge" (baum(modern German for tree)-mountains). Now, according to local legend, that first part of the name, "Baum", used to mean something related to thunder, likely the "Boom" that they tend to make. Of course nowadays, the mountains are mostly forested with fir, some maple and beech trees, as most forested areas around here are, but I know for a fact that it used to mainly be oak, since my family's farm's roofing structure, which from family tradition, I know to be from one very specific part of the hills, and which where ring-dated to about 500 years during renovations exist. It would at some point maybe be interesting to see if there is some relation there, especially since some of the village names here, if you add some spaces between words, are pretty much correct old-old German.
Thankyou Jackson for your fascinating weaving of diverse threads to recreate the fabric of our ancestors. It breaths life into our ancient world and the codes within our DNA.
5:25 I was wondering what kind of bird that was! Hermit thrushes don't live round these parts, but it's call was so similar to many of the thrushes that live here. It made the intro up to this point so enjoyable to watch, the calm wind together with the bird's call
Thank you so much for including information from the Baltic lands. It's so rare to hear. Do you have any recommendations for more soruces of information in English?
As some people in the comments already suggested, there is no (direct) connection to smithing. But one thing I find fascinating is, that rain/thunderstorm clouds (Cumulonimbus = rainstom cloud) can have a flat top and are then called Cumulonimbus incus ( rain storm cloud anvil). So it doesn't seem far to the hammer hitting the anvil producing thunder and lightning allegory. Would be interesting to know if this can be made in other languages other than with latin. Besides that, super interesting video. I already wrote to another channel that what we know from the Germanic/Norse gods is only a snapshot from certain time periods and specific places. I'd assume there are changes across time and from different groups. Especially as "common knowledge" and believes must've changed with different influences and the migration of people. And I wonder if stories like Ragnarok were something like an explanation to reset a believe and build it up anew with a few minor or major changes - adding names, making some a mate rather than a child or vice versa or maybe even changing the importance of a god like removing Tyr as the head and replacing him by Odin.
Thor's cart was pulled across the heavens by his two magical goats Grisner and Gnostr thereby creating sparks of lightning and the roar of thunder. These goats could be eaten for supper as long as the bones were kept, the goats would rise anew the next morning. One had developed a limp as a result of someone having sucked the marrow out of a bone.
The faltering association with thunder and lightning as the PIE influence moved west could possibly be down to geography. Scandinavia is not particularly plagued by thunderstorms, and back in the day Central and Western Europe was very forested and fairly varied in topography - two characteristics that are in marked contrast to the Eurasian Steppe. Out there a thunderstorm must’ve been orders of magnitude more terrifying than over here in the forests and hills. Imagine being alone on the plains when a front rolls in, you’re the thing that sticks out and there’s nowhere to run. Better lie down flat and hope that your horse takes the hit!
@@grindsaur fascinating. I grew up in the Midwest so we have trees and hills aplenty. Never really thought about being in plains during a storm. Guess I took my safety for granted lol.
@@casthedemon what part of the midwest? I'm in the rockies and they think they are midwest. To me, from MN, they are CLEARLY 'west'. And the plains storms sometimes put fear of god in me. Tornado Alley: where the sky can kill you.
Denmark has thunderstorms throughout summer, with hail in the spring, and wind - always! Denmark is a collection of islands ‘sheltered’ by the mainland of Jylland. Hence we have a swiftly changing coastal climate everywhere. Norway and Sweden has more inland climate due to being bigger. Thus fewer thunderstorms, but still some, and they are powerful! Just not as ferocious or frequent as some placesin the USA.
I love your rambling! Ramble MORE!! But srsl: a wonderful video as they TEND to be and wonderfully informative, AND more books to check out to boot ^v^
Every time I’ve heard/read Lokasenna I’ve taken Loki’s insult as an accusation of her laying with Þórr. He followed it saying she’s always been lustful. He accused her of sleeping with both of Óðins brothers. Not to mention he accused Freyja sleeping with her own brother and sleeping with all the gods and elves in the hall. He accused Njörðr of conceiving Freyr (who Freyja was accused of sleeping with) with Njörðr’s own sister…. As much as it’s mentioned in his Truth-telling, that everyone has “kept it in the family” so to speak, I Really don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he was accusing Frigg of sleeping with Þórr
It's an interesting theory and makes me wonder. Female 'Fjörgyn' in Old Norse as I took it, refers to the fecund Earth and literally means 'the furrow' ('(h)in fjörg'). As always with Old Norse ambiguity on fecundity, it could either mean the furrows plowed in a field, or the vagina. Þórs connection with Fjörgyn would be that of a thunder and lightning c.q sky God that protects and 'wettens' the earth with rain for good harvest and newborn life. If the male version 'Fjörgynn' only appears once, a miswriting would be logical. On the other hand, Maybe in later Eddic lore an older name for Þór may have been confused with 'Fjörgyn'. The analogy with other IE sky Gods really is interesting. Thanks for sharing this new point of view!
It's strange. In Norway, we call thunder, for torden. As I understand, from the God Tor, it's the same in English and US english. But in Sweden, they call it Åske, or Åskväder = thunderstorm. In northern sami, they called it Boján (dálki). Boján is a kind of a troll in sámi mytologi.
Tordön is an archaic word for thunder in Swedish. Åska also refers to Thor. It means something like ”the ride of the Ås/As”, ås/as being the same as aesir, clearly referring to Thor. So åska is ”ride of Thor”.
Thank you for all this information. The song of the hermit thrush is hypnotic. I’m wondering about oak shrines. The Peryn ritual is intriguing. The Pērkons song is reminiscent of Rig Veda.
Random thoughts (no expertise behind) for you to read and comment or shred: oak trees and pigs, pigs and wild boars like acorns. While the smith's hammer hit the hot steel, you see sparkles. In italian we have this word "maglio" coming from Latin "malleum" which can be translated in english with mallet, interestingly enough in italian "maglio" is used to describe the a specific smith's hammer among other meaning (all relate to blunted objects used with force to hit and split wood etc). Even if (here my memory fails a bit) the art of forging metal was more of a dwarves skill in the old Nordic mythology, for an uneducated person as I am, a subtle pattern seems to emerge... or maybe is simply overall misunderstanding.
I live near a town/village called Thundersley, located near Benfleet (re. Battle of Benfleet ad 894). Thundersley has been related to Punres leah perhaps Thors sacred Grove. Its located on elevated ground, above Benfleet. Interesting article.
Thanks you for these videos man...they are really informative without being boring or excessively dumbed down for children....Your narration is also very well done.. ...so yeah man, thanks you for these. looking forward learning more
The divergence of weapons is probably because the original version was a stone ax. The word for which seems to have been the origin for the word hammer. So one culture kept the weapon a blunt bludgeoning weapon. Another kept it as an ax, and the Germanic cultures kept it a “hammer”, with what a hammer meaning changing.
There's no logic in this, since these are two completely different tools, but they are of equal value in their daily use, both of which can also be used as tools of war. At the same time, the back of the metal part of the ax can also be used as a hammer.
@@mutzeputze4624 The STONE axes I’m talking about aren’t sharp nor do they cut so much as smash along a line. There are also a number of surviving stone axes from the Battle Ax culture with hammers on the reverse.
@@kokofan50 Oh, I see your point now, that's logical, of course. Nevertheless, the hammer finds are to be distinguished from the stone ax finds, since stone was already sharpened to a point and ground into axes. On the other hand, the stones used as a hammer do not necessarily have to differ from natural stones and sometimes appear or can be unprocessed. In fact, hammer and ax have and had different purposes.
It's also interesting that the mjolnir pendants resemble a ship building axe (if a handle was attached at a 90° angle to the end of the pendant) which was used to split trees into beams. Perhaps that's why his tree was the oak? Because he split the other trees? So fir trees are called so because they catch fire easily?
This makes my science mind wonder if the sonic boom concept was understood. You could be sure that thunder and lightning normally come together. But how you actually see it they could have separate source’s. Like heat lightning you see but don’t hear sometimes, the rumbling in thick clouds that rarely show the lightning inside the clouds and the time difference of sound compared to sight from how far away. So they give the impression of being separate from a similar source. Just a thought to consider when exploring descriptions 💚😊🍀
11:28 One of the very few things I remember from a botany class I took decades ago is that oaks get struck by lightning more often due to a combination of their height (up to ~150 feet here in New England) and their relatively high moisture content. I also remember that pines can explode dramatically when hit by lightning. And finally, I remember the name "Mitchella repens.". I don't know why. I have no idea what that is.
For the cultures around the baltic sea and the slavic cultures: It is really hard to ascertain which came from old indoeuropean roots, and what came from cultural back and forth with the scandinavians. There are hundreds of years of contact.
In Swedish folklore from the last century , Thor or Tor, as he was called then, was still connected to thunder. When it was thundering, people used to say that now Tor is out hunting Trolls. When lightning struck a certain mountain, they said that it was beacause trolls probably lived there. On the Swedish island of Gotland thunder could be called ”Gullvagn” in their dialect/language, which means Goldwagon and the grey thunder clouds were called ”bukkar”, which means ”goats” in Gotlandian/Gutnish. So I think that Thors connection to thunder was never forgotten in Scandinavia.
That sounds familiar. When its thundering Serbs would say that St. Eliyah is striking demons and they are hiding behind trees. It is also said that St. Eliyah is driving his wagon in the skies and it thunders when the wheels bump against a stone. The little demons are often said to live in trees, especially oak three. Such a damon can be caught and fed, he will bring fortune to those who feeds him but if you forget about him he will burn everything down. They often show in form of an animal with a red mark on the head. If he shows in a human form with a red cap it means a soon death.
That's from the last century though. There were a lot of fairy tales regarding Norse Mythology spawned from the romantic era fascination with it, after the Icelandic manuscripts had been translated and it became public knowledge. Same thing happened in Germany, Wagner's operas are one of the product.
@@meginna8354 These are folktales from the peasentry who knew nothing of the Eddas or of the learned speculations of scholars. These folk tales are regarded as a genuine tradition among folklorists. Some of them have also been recorded from a time period before the Eddas were known in mainland Scandinavia, thus disprooving your point.
Excellent summary. I would like to hear some commentary on the phonetic difficulties of Perun and Parjana, why did they have these phonetic irregularities?
Side note half-off topic: oak trees only are more likely to be struck by lightning because they tend to get very high. They do not have a particularly high water content, like some other trees that are better conductors because of it. So, if it's a younger oak or there are f.i. some old great pines somewhere near, not more likely. If it's your epic old oak towering over the trees all around it, yes. That's where lightning probably strikes.
in swedish interestingly we say åska, about thunder i dont know where that comes from BUT we also have the word dunder, which is often used together with but separetely from åska so its usually said "åska och dunder" im guessing åska is an old word for the cracking noise of thunder. its not used for anything else, whereas dunder (which is obviously the same as thunder) means a loud rumbling noise usually used to describe the sound of thunder but it can be used about other things as well, like the sound of a loud engine or an avalanche. edit: actually åska probably has something to do with aska, meaning ash. i bet jackson has the answer unfortunately he doesnt reply to comments. perhaps someone else can enlighten me?
I'm not at all an expert in Norse etymologies, so don't take my try to explain what you exposes too seriously. However, I think there is a way to explain the link between thunder and ash, the kind of tree that Yggdrasil is taken to be. As Michel Pastoureau called back in Une histoire symbolique du Moyen-Âge, the ash was, for Germans, the tree that is considered mediator between the sky and the ground, hence being Yggdrasil, but also apparently being linked to lightning and thunder, which it attires. Moreover, we made spears in ash, and the weapon of the thundergod is sometimes a spear, for instance with the Celtic god Lug. There could be a Celtic reminiscence of that in Swedish, since Germans and Celtics share a very close origin, but even without that, I think that link with ash may have found an explanation.
@@arbis5593 thank you. i looked into it quickly, åska is a fairly new word i dont know where it comes from but an older word for it is tordön, composite of Tor (Thor) and dön which means loud noise so it literally means the rumble or loud noise of thor.
Åska comes from Old Swedish "asikkia", "ās-ækia", which in modern Swedish might be written "asens åkning", ie "the ride of the god" (Thor). It has nothing to do with ash, and is considered to originally have been a so-called noa-name for an earlier term which it came to replace.
My ear pricked up when you started talking about tonaros, because it sounded so much like "thanatos" or the personification of death in greek. Really perked my interest because also being from colorado I felt like I was about to die in a lightning storm today (mid july) while mountain biking. So right now I don't think there is much difference between lightning and death, and these maybe false cognates support me for the moment lol
My question to the language-specialist: Fits the name of the hittite weather-god Tarhunna also into the list of indo-european "thunder-gods"? I'm not familiar with the loud-shifts of the different IE-languages.
Didn't pay 100% attention during the entire video, but not sure this was addressed: "Mær" in Danish ("Merr" in Norrønsk and "Mare" in English) translates not just to a girl but to a woman that behaves in a malicious or sexual "immorally" way. It is highly derogatory.
It's an unrelated word. Danish mær comes from Old Norse merr meaning "female horse". The derogatory connotation came from comparing a loose woman to a horse that likes to be "riden". The word that Old Norse mær meaning "maiden, virgin, daughter" became in Danish is mø.
@@redere4777 Very interesting and educational. Thanks a lot! Yeah, I have no clue when the words meant what. I knew about the female horse, but not that the meaning in old norse was very different and more akin to mø. Much appreciated!
This is the first time I came across this line of videos. I found them interesting. I did not just stumble on them. I was checking some stuff on Norse Mythology. I have a good deal of information on lightning/thunder, and on mountains and forests that incubate them and are battered by them. I just want to know the good professor's view on Holger Pedersen's "Nostratic Hypothesis (1903)". A mirror of this entire discussion exists on the other side of the mountain, meaning, in non-IE languages. Academia has erected a flimsy wall between the language families that Pedersen grouped together. In fact, the latter are the root for all that is discussed here. The Nostratic Hypothesis is not a hypothesis. It is a fact. If the professor can cross divides, I would be glad to share what I know. (Btw, I am an alumnus of CU Boulder.)
Thunderstorms are much rarer in Scandinavia than in Central Europe. So it is easy understandable that Thor lost his perception as a thunder god in the North. The southgermanic tribes had Thonar, spelled Donar in Old High German.
to me, thor never has been something else than a thundergod. the germanic name for him was "donar" which also directly translates to thunder. also a fascinating thing, how much similarities all those different gods from different times and mythologies have, even if the cultures never directly or indirectly met.
In other words, Thor is the reason thunder exists -- Thor causes thunder as a consequence of his existence, but his "job" is not to make thunder happen. It is a force of nature emerging from Thor's adventures.
@CarryTheTruth which would be interesting except that he's never associated with smithing.
Only residually in old Norse. Re-watch the last few minutes
Germanic cultures we’re animistic, animism would have thunder as the physical manifestion of Thor and Thor is the intelligence and life behind that storm.
Thor isn’t some red headed man riding through the sky nor does actually have adventures. The story’s you have are just stories made up to either teach lessons or to explain a observation. It really seems Americans struggle with this concept
@@casthedemon you have almost nothing from the actual religion. You could never ever say that for sure
Sons of Thunder
across the ages skipping over its "peaks"
Yes a chair chariot chair brim like la hat
The problem is not with you conveying information, the problem is people not wanting to understand what you are saying. They are more interested in what they get told by the TV series and other Modern Viking Media. We see this as Viking Reenactors who regularly have members of the public tell us (not ask us) about things they see in the Modern Viking Media. You're doing a great job and you are a HUGE help for us with our studies/research in our Living History and Reenactment. Thank you!
This problem is exacerbated by the very thin line, perception-wise in the eyes of the public, between living history folks and (let's call them) Vikings-the-tv-show cosplayers. The latter are PERFECTLY FINE, I've met and enjoyed the company of many of them, but much like the TV show itself they distort and obfuscate evidence-based attempts at re-enactment. They also, in my experience, vastly outnumber those of us trying to stick to evidence based re-enactment and living history.
Honestly we're so lucky with the Icelanders writing so much down from their culture. When I hear we only get snippets from folklore in Celtic and Slavic cultures I realize this.
This video really made me hyper aware of the Indo-European connection, thank you!
As one who is looking into the ancient Slavic cultures and gods, this is seconded. It's very, very tough to find good info on them.
Both wrote their culture down, most of it was destroyed, the celts genocided by the romans and later celts having all their centers of learning burned down because of vikings.
@@nodruj8681more so because of the Church.
The thing about oak trees, as I’ve understood it, is that they are robust enough to survive getting struck by lightning - which was rightfully perceived as impressive.
The house and shelter trees for old farmsteads are linden and elder, but the lightning catchers are oak,birch, pine, spruce and fir.
mutze putze Never heard about that before, fascinating 👍
@@grindsaur At least in central Europe in the alps in the german speaking areas it is like that. Proven, old farmsteads (in scattered settlements) and hamlets with an age of up to 900 to 1000 years show this pattern.
They also get struck a lot more than others trees because of the size statistically
@@ZeroGravityFuneral Absolut. And also because of their shape I guess (pointed top).
Hello, just wanted to say I love your videos.
Speaking of thunder-gods... my family are Croatian immigrants to North America. We were raised very catholic, but when I was a kid and there were particularly fierce thunderstorms, my mother would tell me a story that it was St. Elijah making the thunder and lightning, that he was enraged that his brother hid something of his (gifts, or a tool or something). When I became an adult, I developed an interest in history and mythology and was surprised when I learned the Christians converted Perun into St. Elijah. So, I believe my mom was just telling me a folktale about Perun that had been passed down orally for perhaps thousands of years, without even realizing it. Wild as it sounds.
Thats interesting, do you remember the story?
Same here. In Russia there is a day of st.Ilya, who supposed to create thunder.
Same in Serbia, I was raised as an Orthodox Christian. My family moved to Australia.
We have Christian holidays that used to be pagan in origin. Vidovdan and Đurđevdan are two examples.
Best wishes from 🇦🇺
@@revert6417 Cheers!
“All the persuasive abilities of a box turtle” better be the title of Dr. Crawford’s post-retirement little book of wisdom and reflection on his life and career
"Milna" is a pretty well-known word (though rarely used these days, might be considered archaic) in Latvian, meaning "mace" or "heavy cudgel". Thank you for pointing out the connection between it and "Mjǫllnir"!
This also made me realize that Russian молния (lightning) is related.
Russian молния molnia or lightning might be connected
I have some experience in botany in connection to forestry and spent a lot of time in European forests as by trade, but also just because it's my favorite place to be.
Oak is definitely not the most prone tree to being struck by lightning, but there is certainly a connection. Oak is probably the toughest and one of the thickest trees in Europe. It gets struck somewhat less than pine, for example, because chance of a lighting strike mainly correlates with height. However, it is prone to surviving said strikes, developing distinctive and impressive "scars", whereas most other thinner or softer trees tend to be just obliterated or burned completely.
Interestingly, in later (1800's) Scandinavian folklore, a sort of residual Thor is often hinted at with the byname/kenning "Trumslagaren" (The Drummer), and lightning is sometimes called "trumpinnar" (drumsticks). This is usually talked about by trolls, as inherently heathen begins (it would of course be mildly taboo for Christian Scandinavians to speak about thunder in a heathen fashion in their own words), and always in the context of them fearing to be struck by his drumsticks.
Thunder is quite common in Scandinavia - but in cold and far flung Iceland, Thunder is almost absent (due to the cold climate).
It was often more overt than that. I remember a testimony where a crowd of Swedish peasants were asked about the earliest people from before the flood and one answered "Tor and Friya?".
I often hear that Thor was a God associated with farmers, if so could that point to him being a storm god as well seeing that rain is vital in most places with agriculture and lightning often accompanies rain
Gods of thunder are also storm gods, especially indo European ones. Since storms bring rain, he would also be the God of rain and therefore associated with farmers. Just like Indra.
Except The Vanir where the agro-gods, not the Aisir. War like people do not worry about agriculture, they just take what they want from the farmers.
I know you don't read comments but I wanted to say I could hear those thrushes loud and clear, it was such a delight as I thought they were Evening Thrushes like what we have up in the PNW! It's a very nostalgic sound for me and added a lovely touch to your video.
Hope to hear more birds alongside you in future videos :)
My kids and I still say “labas perkunas” when we hear thunder, something we picked up travelling in Lithuania! No idea why this one overheard phrase stuck!
Not long winded at all. That's part of your charm, Dr. Crawford. This is all so fascinating. Much obliged, sir.
Also: how do you get "Pig Rider" from Hlóriði? What's the first element of the compound?
The same name also made it's way into the Balto-Finnic languages with various pagan meanings. In Finnish the term later became identified with the biblical Satan and remains with us to this day in the ubiquitous swear word "perkele".
Have you ever heard of Finnish thunder god Ukko? From his name comes ukkonen which is thunder in English .
"Little Perun"
@@NinaMaa387 I'm pretty sure thunder is thunder in english.
Perrrkele satana ❤️
Also Indra's weapon 'vajra' was borrowed into West Uralic languages as a word for hammer/axe, cf. Finnish 'vasara' hammer
Thank you for this wonderful video of Thor’s names. Other than for alliteration, I always wondered why Thor was called “Pig-Rider” when his cart is driven by goats.
But if Fjorgynn is actually Njord, then it makes more sense. His kin often rode boars and would make Thor half-brother to the famous boar-riders Frey and Freya.
In a way, the norse myths have an undercurrent where Thor and Freyr and Baldur and other gods are the same. Odin is called "masked one" and many other names. Each god is part of a pantheon. They are just one face of a bigger holy power we can only measure through glimpses in our mortal lives.
@@sathdk79 Ginnregin.
PERKELE!! In finnish. Same root as Perkunas and Перун.
And "vajra" -> "vasara".
I love that you are a fellow birder.
The cold climate in Iceland makes Thunder very rare, almost absent - which I think explains why Icelandic sources don't mention Thors connection with Thunder. Different story in Mainland Scandinavia, where Thunder is seen and heard quite common.
Absolutely mind-blowing that the word vajra is cognate with a verb used in the Eddas to describe Thor. Hadn't heard that before.
ABsolutely stunned by this video. The word for thunder in my native Bulgarian is the same as in russian (similiar slavic languages) and it really is a cognate to Mjolnir which is something that never would have occured to me. These videos are very very educational and make me realise more and more how all languages really have the same roots, which is something that we hear often but can never trully understand without thinking about it a lot.
13:09 perkunos... similarly sounding words in Italian with the meaning of strike: percuotere, to strike, percussore that (or one) which strikes...
Percussion
I’m obviously oblivious to your observations of bloviating. Bravo, to you and the hermit thrush, and your lonely horse.
Even as kid (growing up in the rural great Basin) I developed a healthy respect for lightning 30 years working in the backcountry has only reinforced that.
Thank you for making these videos and keeping it academic rather than pretending to be some sort of mystic or prophet. I never had an interest in Norse mythology until I happened across this channel, now I'm working my way through a used copy of the Prose Edda that I picked up.
Thor is a version of Thorn, Thorn, the rune, is associated with danger and pain, the horns of a aurochs, or the tusks of a boar. And also storms, which are both dangerous for men, but also beneficial as far as a harvest 😉
Thankyou Jackson and Thankyou all the patron supporters.
Vigja - is that verb surviving in modern Swedish viga, which refers to marrying, sanctifying a priest, and similar. Holy water is vigvatten, vigd jord is consecrated earth.
Maybe the core meaning is sanctify, consecrate?
Yes.
The God Vé (as in Woden, Vili & Vé).
The name stemming from Proto-Germanic *wīhōn, itself from the adjective *wīhaz, meaning 'holy'. A related noun, *wīhan ('sanctuary'), can also be reconstructed on the basis of Old Norse vé and Old Swedish vi ('sanctuary') and is indeed the root of the modern swedish word vig.
I think the part about oaks was quite interesting. In my region of northern Germany, there are the "Baumberge" (baum(modern German for tree)-mountains).
Now, according to local legend, that first part of the name, "Baum", used to mean something related to thunder, likely the "Boom" that they tend to make.
Of course nowadays, the mountains are mostly forested with fir, some maple and beech trees, as most forested areas around here are, but I know for a fact that it used to mainly be oak, since my family's farm's roofing structure, which from family tradition, I know to be from one very specific part of the hills, and which where ring-dated to about 500 years during renovations exist.
It would at some point maybe be interesting to see if there is some relation there, especially since some of the village names here, if you add some spaces between words, are pretty much correct old-old German.
And this explanation will echo in many places on and on. Thank you for the great content. 🙌🙌🙌
Thankyou Jackson for your fascinating weaving of diverse threads to recreate the fabric of our ancestors. It breaths life into our ancient world and the codes within our DNA.
5:25
I was wondering what kind of bird that was! Hermit thrushes don't live round these parts, but it's call was so similar to many of the thrushes that live here.
It made the intro up to this point so enjoyable to watch, the calm wind together with the bird's call
Thank you so much for including information from the Baltic lands. It's so rare to hear. Do you have any recommendations for more soruces of information in English?
As some people in the comments already suggested, there is no (direct) connection to smithing. But one thing I find fascinating is, that rain/thunderstorm clouds (Cumulonimbus = rainstom cloud) can have a flat top and are then called Cumulonimbus incus ( rain storm cloud anvil). So it doesn't seem far to the hammer hitting the anvil producing thunder and lightning allegory. Would be interesting to know if this can be made in other languages other than with latin.
Besides that, super interesting video.
I already wrote to another channel that what we know from the Germanic/Norse gods is only a snapshot from certain time periods and specific places. I'd assume there are changes across time and from different groups.
Especially as "common knowledge" and believes must've changed with different influences and the migration of people. And I wonder if stories like Ragnarok were something like an explanation to reset a believe and build it up anew with a few minor or major changes - adding names, making some a mate rather than a child or vice versa or maybe even changing the importance of a god like removing Tyr as the head and replacing him by Odin.
Thor's cart was pulled across the heavens by his two magical goats Grisner and Gnostr thereby creating sparks of lightning and the roar of thunder. These goats could be eaten for supper as long as the bones were kept, the goats would rise anew the next morning. One had developed a limp as a result of someone having sucked the marrow out of a bone.
The faltering association with thunder and lightning as the PIE influence moved west could possibly be down to geography. Scandinavia is not particularly plagued by thunderstorms, and back in the day Central and Western Europe was very forested and fairly varied in topography - two characteristics that are in marked contrast to the Eurasian Steppe. Out there a thunderstorm must’ve been orders of magnitude more terrifying than over here in the forests and hills.
Imagine being alone on the plains when a front rolls in, you’re the thing that sticks out and there’s nowhere to run. Better lie down flat and hope that your horse takes the hit!
Never thought of it that way. Interesting. I've never been scared of thunderstorms. I always loved sitting out in the rain and watching and listening.
Cas The Demon I also enjoy them, however I have experienced one while camping in the Vosges, that was something else!
@@grindsaur fascinating. I grew up in the Midwest so we have trees and hills aplenty. Never really thought about being in plains during a storm. Guess I took my safety for granted lol.
@@casthedemon what part of the midwest? I'm in the rockies and they think they are midwest. To me, from MN, they are CLEARLY 'west'. And the plains storms sometimes put fear of god in me. Tornado Alley: where the sky can kill you.
Denmark has thunderstorms throughout summer, with hail in the spring, and wind - always! Denmark is a collection of islands ‘sheltered’ by the mainland of Jylland. Hence we have a swiftly changing coastal climate everywhere. Norway and Sweden has more inland climate due to being bigger. Thus fewer thunderstorms, but still some, and they are powerful! Just not as ferocious or frequent as some placesin the USA.
I love your rambling! Ramble MORE!!
But srsl: a wonderful video as they TEND to be and wonderfully informative, AND more books to check out to boot ^v^
Every time I’ve heard/read Lokasenna I’ve taken Loki’s insult as an accusation of her laying with Þórr. He followed it saying she’s always been lustful. He accused her of sleeping with both of Óðins brothers. Not to mention he accused Freyja sleeping with her own brother and sleeping with all the gods and elves in the hall. He accused Njörðr of conceiving Freyr (who Freyja was accused of sleeping with) with Njörðr’s own sister…. As much as it’s mentioned in his Truth-telling, that everyone has “kept it in the family” so to speak, I Really don’t think it’s a stretch to assume he was accusing Frigg of sleeping with Þórr
It's an interesting theory and makes me wonder. Female 'Fjörgyn' in Old Norse as I took it, refers to the fecund Earth and literally means 'the furrow' ('(h)in fjörg'). As always with Old Norse ambiguity on fecundity, it could either mean the furrows plowed in a field, or the vagina. Þórs connection with Fjörgyn would be that of a thunder and lightning c.q sky God that protects and 'wettens' the earth with rain for good harvest and newborn life. If the male version 'Fjörgynn' only appears once, a miswriting would be logical. On the other hand, Maybe in later Eddic lore an older name for Þór may have been confused with 'Fjörgyn'. The analogy with other IE sky Gods really is interesting. Thanks for sharing this new point of view!
It's strange. In Norway, we call thunder, for torden. As I understand, from the God Tor, it's the same in English and US english. But in Sweden, they call it Åske, or Åskväder = thunderstorm. In northern sami, they called it Boján (dálki). Boján is a kind of a troll in sámi mytologi.
In Swedish there is "tordön", but it's not commonly used
Tordön is an archaic word for thunder in Swedish. Åska also refers to Thor. It means something like ”the ride of the Ås/As”, ås/as being the same as aesir, clearly referring to Thor.
So åska is ”ride of Thor”.
Fascinating stuff!
So rambling, but you pulled it off and made it into a fascinating video!
The Welsh word "mellt" is pronounce with /ɬ/, in Welsh reprisents /ɬ/. (this comment isnt intended as poking fun it's just a correction ^~^)
That is really really cool, awesome. Thanks for the video, and I like longer, maybe more rambling, videos.
53 likes and zero views love when I'm here early
Fascinating. Appreciate the rambling.
This was very interesting. Thank You
Thank you for all this information. The song of the hermit thrush is hypnotic. I’m wondering about oak shrines. The Peryn ritual is intriguing. The Pērkons song is reminiscent of Rig Veda.
Random thoughts (no expertise behind) for you to read and comment or shred: oak trees and pigs, pigs and wild boars like acorns. While the smith's hammer hit the hot steel, you see sparkles. In italian we have this word "maglio" coming from Latin "malleum" which can be translated in english with mallet, interestingly enough in italian "maglio" is used to describe the a specific smith's hammer among other meaning (all relate to blunted objects used with force to hit and split wood etc). Even if (here my memory fails a bit) the art of forging metal was more of a dwarves skill in the old Nordic mythology, for an uneducated person as I am, a subtle pattern seems to emerge... or maybe is simply overall misunderstanding.
Great episode!!!
Thank you sharing your knowledge 🙂 Best of wishes from the land of Perkūnas ⚡🇱🇹⚡
man I love videos like this. Ty for making this. So interesting.
Dr. Crawford, sir,
I would love a video on the Linden tree in scandinavian poetry.
amazing video man stay safe out there
I live near a town/village called Thundersley, located near Benfleet (re. Battle of Benfleet ad 894). Thundersley has been related to Punres leah perhaps Thors sacred Grove. Its located on elevated ground, above Benfleet. Interesting article.
Hermit Thurshes are being heard 👍
I love hermit thrushes 💚💚💚 I only see them in the mountains, not by my home. It's worth the trip just to hear them.
Yes, though muted, I heard the song of the hermit thrush loud like distant thunder rolling across the valley!
Wow, 21:51 gave me shivers down my spine.
Thanks you for these videos man...they are really informative without being boring or excessively dumbed down for children....Your narration is also very well done.. ...so yeah man, thanks you for these. looking forward learning more
I’m currently reading The Mahabharata and “Parjanya” is one of Indra’s names like Maghavan, Vasava, Shakra, Shatakratu, etc.
The divergence of weapons is probably because the original version was a stone ax. The word for which seems to have been the origin for the word hammer. So one culture kept the weapon a blunt bludgeoning weapon. Another kept it as an ax, and the Germanic cultures kept it a “hammer”, with what a hammer meaning changing.
There's no logic in this, since these are two completely different tools, but they are of equal value in their daily use, both of which can also be used as tools of war. At the same time, the back of the metal part of the ax can also be used as a hammer.
@@mutzeputze4624 The STONE axes I’m talking about aren’t sharp nor do they cut so much as smash along a line. There are also a number of surviving stone axes from the Battle Ax culture with hammers on the reverse.
@@kokofan50 Oh, I see your point now, that's logical, of course. Nevertheless, the hammer finds are to be distinguished from the stone ax finds, since stone was already sharpened to a point and ground into axes. On the other hand, the stones used as a hammer do not necessarily have to differ from natural stones and sometimes appear or can be unprocessed. In fact, hammer and ax have and had different purposes.
It's also interesting that the mjolnir pendants resemble a ship building axe (if a handle was attached at a 90° angle to the end of the pendant) which was used to split trees into beams. Perhaps that's why his tree was the oak? Because he split the other trees? So fir trees are called so because they catch fire easily?
This makes my science mind wonder if the sonic boom concept was understood. You could be sure that thunder and lightning normally come together. But how you actually see it they could have separate source’s. Like heat lightning you see but don’t hear sometimes, the rumbling in thick clouds that rarely show the lightning inside the clouds and the time difference of sound compared to sight from how far away. So they give the impression of being separate from a similar source. Just a thought to consider when exploring descriptions 💚😊🍀
11:28 One of the very few things I remember from a botany class I took decades ago is that oaks get struck by lightning more often due to a combination of their height (up to ~150 feet here in New England) and their relatively high moisture content. I also remember that pines can explode dramatically when hit by lightning. And finally, I remember the name "Mitchella repens.". I don't know why. I have no idea what that is.
For the cultures around the baltic sea and the slavic cultures: It is really hard to ascertain which came from old indoeuropean roots, and what came from cultural back and forth with the scandinavians. There are hundreds of years of contact.
Lovely song from the hermit thrush.
A fine talk,thank you.
In Swedish folklore from the last century , Thor or Tor, as he was called then, was still connected to thunder. When it was thundering, people used to say that now Tor is out hunting Trolls. When lightning struck a certain mountain, they said that it was beacause trolls probably lived there. On the Swedish island of Gotland thunder could be called ”Gullvagn” in their dialect/language, which means Goldwagon and the grey thunder clouds were called ”bukkar”, which means ”goats” in Gotlandian/Gutnish. So I think that Thors connection to thunder was never forgotten in Scandinavia.
That sounds familiar. When its thundering Serbs would say that St. Eliyah is striking demons and they are hiding behind trees. It is also said that St. Eliyah is driving his wagon in the skies and it thunders when the wheels bump against a stone.
The little demons are often said to live in trees, especially oak three. Such a damon can be caught and fed, he will bring fortune to those who feeds him but if you forget about him he will burn everything down. They often show in form of an animal with a red mark on the head. If he shows in a human form with a red cap it means a soon death.
@@drazenbuvac8262 Very interesting!
We also used to call thunder "tordön" which means "thor's noise", and the modern word åska essentially means "god wagon".
That's from the last century though. There were a lot of fairy tales regarding Norse Mythology spawned from the romantic era fascination with it, after the Icelandic manuscripts had been translated and it became public knowledge. Same thing happened in Germany, Wagner's operas are one of the product.
@@meginna8354 These are folktales from the peasentry who knew nothing of the Eddas or of the learned speculations of scholars. These folk tales are regarded as a genuine tradition among folklorists. Some of them have also been recorded from a time period before the Eddas were known in mainland Scandinavia, thus disprooving your point.
Reminds me of one of the names of the Dagda (Cerrce) also associated with the Oak, and lighting.
Excellent summary. I would like to hear some commentary on the phonetic difficulties of Perun and Parjana, why did they have these phonetic irregularities?
Thunder’s just a noise, boys,
Lightning does the work
Brilliant
This has been one of your most informative and entertaining videos to date, Jackson.
Is your translation of the Prose Edda still in the works? Im looking forward to adding it to my collection.
It's interesting that the word for thunderbolt is "åskvigg" in Swedish. Reminds of vigja
Side note half-off topic: oak trees only are more likely to be struck by lightning because they tend to get very high. They do not have a particularly high water content, like some other trees that are better conductors because of it. So, if it's a younger oak or there are f.i. some old great pines somewhere near, not more likely. If it's your epic old oak towering over the trees all around it, yes. That's where lightning probably strikes.
Great video!
I believe that in Icelandic the 'hlór' part of Hlórriði is probably related to a loud, crashing sound as that of a thunder
in swedish interestingly we say åska, about thunder i dont know where that comes from BUT we also have the word dunder, which is often used together with but separetely from åska so its usually said "åska och dunder" im guessing åska is an old word for the cracking noise of thunder. its not used for anything else, whereas dunder (which is obviously the same as thunder) means a loud rumbling noise usually used to describe the sound of thunder but it can be used about other things as well, like the sound of a loud engine or an avalanche.
edit: actually åska probably has something to do with aska, meaning ash. i bet jackson has the answer unfortunately he doesnt reply to comments. perhaps someone else can enlighten me?
I'm not at all an expert in Norse etymologies, so don't take my try to explain what you exposes too seriously. However, I think there is a way to explain the link between thunder and ash, the kind of tree that Yggdrasil is taken to be. As Michel Pastoureau called back in Une histoire symbolique du Moyen-Âge, the ash was, for Germans, the tree that is considered mediator between the sky and the ground, hence being Yggdrasil, but also apparently being linked to lightning and thunder, which it attires. Moreover, we made spears in ash, and the weapon of the thundergod is sometimes a spear, for instance with the Celtic god Lug. There could be a Celtic reminiscence of that in Swedish, since Germans and Celtics share a very close origin, but even without that, I think that link with ash may have found an explanation.
@@arbis5593 thank you. i looked into it quickly, åska is a fairly new word i dont know where it comes from but an older word for it is tordön, composite of Tor (Thor) and dön which means loud noise so it literally means the rumble or loud noise of thor.
Also, a lot of Scandinavian folklore speaks about "Trummaren/Trumslagaren" and how trolls fear being struck by his "drumsticks".
Åska comes from Old Swedish "asikkia", "ās-ækia", which in modern Swedish might be written "asens åkning", ie "the ride of the god" (Thor). It has nothing to do with ash, and is considered to originally have been a so-called noa-name for an earlier term which it came to replace.
Yes we hear the birds loud and clear
publishing! couldn't happen to a kinder, more decent person and a great encourager of learning..
My ear pricked up when you started talking about tonaros, because it sounded so much like "thanatos" or the personification of death in greek. Really perked my interest because also being from colorado I felt like I was about to die in a lightning storm today (mid july) while mountain biking. So right now I don't think there is much difference between lightning and death, and these maybe false cognates support me for the moment lol
A park ranger survived 7 lightning strikes in his life. It's not always death. Plenty more live than die.
My question to the language-specialist: Fits the name of the hittite weather-god Tarhunna also into the list of indo-european "thunder-gods"? I'm not familiar with the loud-shifts of the different IE-languages.
Ukadebbaisis Perkūnai deiwe, Ukadebbaisis nūsan deiwe!
Didn't pay 100% attention during the entire video, but not sure this was addressed: "Mær" in Danish ("Merr" in Norrønsk and "Mare" in English) translates not just to a girl but to a woman that behaves in a malicious or sexual "immorally" way. It is highly derogatory.
It's an unrelated word. Danish mær comes from Old Norse merr meaning "female horse". The derogatory connotation came from comparing a loose woman to a horse that likes to be "riden". The word that Old Norse mær meaning "maiden, virgin, daughter" became in Danish is mø.
@@redere4777 Very interesting and educational. Thanks a lot! Yeah, I have no clue when the words meant what. I knew about the female horse, but not that the meaning in old norse was very different and more akin to mø. Much appreciated!
The Icelandic world and I suppose old norse as well for mare is meri.
I've never heard the name Fjorgynn be called another name for Thor before 🤔🤔🤔
Thor's true name is Natalie Portman
I'm no meteorologist, but as a Kansan, that blue sky, white cloud, and lack of wind does not presage thunder any time soon.
Perniö in SW Finland.
The religious aspect of Thor must have been forgot by the Viking age and maybe why the stories don't associate him with thunder,
This is the first time I came across this line of videos. I found them interesting. I did not just stumble on them. I was checking some stuff on Norse Mythology. I have a good deal of information on lightning/thunder, and on mountains and forests that incubate them and are battered by them. I just want to know the good professor's view on Holger Pedersen's "Nostratic Hypothesis (1903)". A mirror of this entire discussion exists on the other side of the mountain, meaning, in non-IE languages. Academia has erected a flimsy wall between the language families that Pedersen grouped together. In fact, the latter are the root for all that is discussed here. The Nostratic Hypothesis is not a hypothesis. It is a fact. If the professor can cross divides, I would be glad to share what I know. (Btw, I am an alumnus of CU Boulder.)
Thanks!
Thunderstorms are much rarer in Scandinavia than in Central Europe. So it is easy understandable that Thor lost his perception as a thunder god in the North. The southgermanic tribes had Thonar, spelled Donar in Old High German.
Donar --> Donner ---> Donnerstag
Liked for the hermit thrush song
I live in the lightning capital of the world,it's a scary thing for sure.
Really enjoying your videos. I’m curious as to how Zeus/Jupiter becomes a god associated with lightning, even though he is cognate with Tyr.
You're mispronouncing welsh 'll'...
Tiny feedback - great video
to me, thor never has been something else than a thundergod. the germanic name for him was "donar" which also directly translates to thunder.
also a fascinating thing, how much similarities all those different gods from different times and mythologies have, even if the cultures never directly or indirectly met.
May be there could be a connection between pigs/boars with oaks as they, probably, often could be seen around oak trees in search for acorns.
I don’t think you’re rambling, but even if you were, it’s giving more open mic time for the hermit thrushes, so it’s all good.
the amount of puns in this video hurt lmaooo