I call BS. Queens are incredibly slow to produce at the start. They dont help i.e. against talkers, immortals, archons. Sure, some adepts are defended, but Glaive adepts wreck queens. Same with 2 zealots. On the other hand, queens are the only thing that prevents the very weak Zerg units from instant dying at the beginning of the game. :)
I played a game, first since many weeks. ZvP, 3500MMR, opponent went for a skytoss build and I just destroyed him. no gg. So I've grab wisdom from this video. thank you. I waited with no army ( he has nothing to send ) then with a better economy I built 20 corruptors and took the air unit one by one out of position while harassing with a few roach.
can you make another video about how to micro the queens with hotkeys while injecting and also defending vs skytoss? and also, how to drone so fast while he is harrasing with adapts and oracles ?
side note on marching the queens to the front line. I feel like theres huge potential to use an overlord to poop creep and a queen can lay a tumor so they have some front line mobility . only been seeing it with nydus
I think that's usually because it's extra real estate on your APM to do that, plus it's pretty easy to just click on deployment Nydus anywhere you want, rather than waiting for an Overlord to show up.
You mean like if they transitioned into zealots as soon a the scout ovie dies? They've spent so much into void 1st that they don't have the minerals for gates and zealots. The transition would be late enough for you to still reach 3 base and have an army forming, neuro opts mass queens but you could squeeze in a roach warren/bane nest and just build units defensively if zealots cross your creep. A dozen queens with energy are really strong.
@@benjaminchen8857 because he probably assumed that if the toss did do a change like that. Then neuro would be massively ahead in economy and would still be able to defend with mass queen ling. And after the first few corruptors come out he can scout with that and stop production or go into gglords
Yea a very strong mixup to void first is to go chargelot allin. Best thing to do if u open ovie speed is try send 2 overlords around the map and into their main after ur first ov dies to the void to scout their follow up. Since they can only patrol the void on one side of the base u will always get a scout
Great if it were a passive protoss. Just went up against skytoss with 5 speed void rays who just went around the map sniping my bases then backing off until he had carriers massed. What do?
At 6:30 in this game Neuro had 9 queens on his hotkey plus maybe a few more unhotkeyed, plus spores at every base. That would be more than enough to beat 2 carriers and a void ray.
@@AloofOof 2 voidrays take significantly less time to make than the 2 carriers plus a voidray mentioned in the OP, since they take longer to make individually (~60 seconds vs ~40 seconds) and also require a fleet beacon which will take another 43 seconds before carrier production can even start. I don't think it's physically possible to get 2 carriers plus a void ray at your opponents base at 4:30, but it would be cool to see what the minimum time is. Probably paying for it all would be the main blocker.
See? Skytoss isn't that hard to deal with. If your complaint is "protoss just sits back and does nothing and I gotta work a gorillion times harder to beat them while they a move" the problem is you LET THEM
You still gotta work a gorillion times harder. Perfectly macroing on 4 bases within 10 minutes is 1000x harder than just sitting on your natural and third with shit macro and spamming carriers.
You can mass them but it ends up making a much longer split map game, which is valid but a slower approach than just hitting corruptor critical mass and fighting.
Nydus All in wouldn't be better? I mean, he basically has no way to harass in this build so making drones is free, but I just nydus with a bunch of roaches and destroy his economy and all pylons. Queens is always the best answer, agains any build haha.
Queens are the better answer because even if they're not used to attack they'll still inject your bases and you'll have insane creep spread in case the game goes long somehow. Roaches become less useful as the game progresses and one or two early Voidrays sent out to harass could ruin your push if they spot the Roaches moving across the map. If Queens are spotted, the Voidrays are the ones who'll have to turn around.
He's not "bad" at macro, but you can't win the macro race as two base Protoss against Zerg with three to four bases. Cannons won't cut it in this situation. They can defend Carriers in one location, but then the Corruptors are free to siege down the rest of the Protoss base. If you see Carriers hiding behind Cannons, just send your Corruptors to the other base and siege down the Nexus and the 1~2 cannons they may have placed to protect the workers. The point is that Starcraft isn't a game where you can shut yourself into your corner, max out your army and win. That's because you're either giving up too many macro opportunities by walling yourself in with two bases or you're giving up too much defense because Protoss won't be able to defend a committed attack until ~7 minutes into the game. Even if all your Zerglings, Banelings (only if you scouted a good number of Zealots), Roaches, or whatever die in that attack, they'll never be able to catch up on macro after that and your bases are still safe thanks to the Queens and Corruptors you should've been building to fend off any possible last desperation attack the Protoss may attempt after losing too many workers and bases. This Protoss strategy makes the same mistake as the common Zerg responses. Step 4 is an easy win, but Step 1 already falls short. They know how to leverage their air superiority once they've gained it, but it takes them so long to reach critical mass that a Zerg correctly scouting Skytoss should have plenty response time to reach critical mass with Corruptors ahead of time. Knowing when to scout and what to scout is key, which is why so much focus was put into the "clues" Neuro pointed out: 1. The Stargate Protoss can't build fighting air units without it. Protoss has to commit to either Stargate, Robo or Twilight Council tech first before they can branch out more later. 2. Is there a full wall? This is a strong indicator as they've decided to confine themselves on two bases. 3. When do they take gas? Zealot All-ins require a lot of minerals. As noted by Neuro, most standard macro builds don't take Gas before 3:30. A Skytoss player needs Gas earlier.
Yorekani I’ve run into this problem lately....they just open cannon shield battery on all bases to the extreme and slowly building up carriers until critical mass
@@cjfletcher325 This describes the issue ive been having trouble breaking. 4-5 cannons in every base with shield batteries on skytoss. I know that means they are investing heavily and I should be able to break it somehow but I keep getting wrecked by this build.
@@Inbal_Feuchtwanger could always dive the nexus once or twice with curropters... send lings to one base to take the voids and carriers attention away and hit the third with a massive amount of curropters... what do I know though I lose to skytoss on the daily.
Now show me how to deal with skytoss without going skytoss as P. Well, I'm a 20 year vet so I kind of already know the answer. But I believe P needs a buff and/or more variety in Anti-Air (that isn't air) Currently when I'm facing a skytoss my deathball is made up of Blink Stalker/Archon/HT. The only units that actually can shoot in the air (that are ground) Where as.. if you're T... you have.. Marines, Cyclones, Widow Mines, Thor... none of which you actually need cause simple M&M+upgrades dominate Skytoss (and most air armies in the game) If you're Z.. less options, but still.. like M&M, (upgraded)Hydras alone beat the hell out of a Skytoss. Then on top of that Z dominates the air with Corruptors alone. The Viper is just the insult on top of it. And of course, infestors are icing (insult) for their anti air force. But even if we pretend Skyzerg isn't in the game... Hydras+Infestor(can even throw in queens) is all you need to beat Skytoss. Conclusion: Skytoss is strong against P. Weak against T and Z. If they are not going to add more units... then I can think of no unit that needs a buff more than the Stalker. They fire slow, they are very 'squishy' for a race that's all about their health/armor superiority. The only thing Stalkers have going for them is their maneuverability. Conclusion II: A Ground Toss army is arguably more GAS intensive than Skytoss. This should NEVER be the case. Ground Toss is broken and Blizzard has never addressed it since SC2 came out A DECADE ago.
"People are thinking about step 4 when they don't even know what step 1 is." FUCK
How to deal with skytoss:
Queens
How to deal with adepts:
Queens
How to deal with zealots:
Queens
How to deal with :
Queens
zerg still needs to sacrafice optimal worker production to build extra queens
how to deal with 70 ultralisks? one queen
And the recently the nerfs queens lol
I call BS. Queens are incredibly slow to produce at the start. They dont help i.e. against talkers, immortals, archons. Sure, some adepts are defended, but Glaive adepts wreck queens. Same with 2 zealots. On the other hand, queens are the only thing that prevents the very weak Zerg units from instant dying at the beginning of the game. :)
Zealots kills queens and drones
I played a game, first since many weeks. ZvP, 3500MMR, opponent went for a skytoss build and I just destroyed him. no gg. So I've grab wisdom from this video. thank you. I waited with no army ( he has nothing to send ) then with a better economy I built 20 corruptors and took the air unit one by one out of position while harassing with a few roach.
This man is amazing.
can you make another video about how to micro the queens with hotkeys while injecting and also defending vs skytoss?
and also, how to drone so fast while he is harrasing with adapts and oracles ?
I make two Queen hot keys. One for injects and another for creep/fighting queens
I tell that two years later but : thanks you for this video !
side note on marching the queens to the front line. I feel like theres huge potential to use an overlord to poop creep and a queen can lay a tumor so they have some front line mobility . only been seeing it with nydus
I think that's usually because it's extra real estate on your APM to do that, plus it's pretty easy to just click on deployment Nydus anywhere you want, rather than waiting for an Overlord to show up.
@@magonus195 yea its great if you do ovie speed upgrade
THANK YOU NEURO
neuro making waves
Great content, Neuro
I only recently found your channel and have to say dude YOU ARE SO GOD DAMN FUNNY. 4:35 "Shut your mouth and make drones".
Really amazing!!! Thanks for advices.
And no harrassment at all by air
What about if they do exactly this and then zealot all in
Then you didn't scout sufficiently.
@@morningstar6123 which he in the video didn't
You mean like if they transitioned into zealots as soon a the scout ovie dies? They've spent so much into void 1st that they don't have the minerals for gates and zealots. The transition would be late enough for you to still reach 3 base and have an army forming, neuro opts mass queens but you could squeeze in a roach warren/bane nest and just build units defensively if zealots cross your creep. A dozen queens with energy are really strong.
@@benjaminchen8857 because he probably assumed that if the toss did do a change like that. Then neuro would be massively ahead in economy and would still be able to defend with mass queen ling. And after the first few corruptors come out he can scout with that and stop production or go into gglords
Yea a very strong mixup to void first is to go chargelot allin. Best thing to do if u open ovie speed is try send 2 overlords around the map and into their main after ur first ov dies to the void to scout their follow up. Since they can only patrol the void on one side of the base u will always get a scout
whatever you say orlando bloom
quick question: how about a toss who rushes cannons/gateways to contain/delay you while they mass voids/carriers at their base?
Defend rush well so you dont fall behind (dont overmake units that have no potential of doing damage) => continue as in video
Feels good
Great video!
hahaha I always thought it was mass hydralisks with viper and infestor/microbial shroud.. It does work but it is hard to make it perfectly work
Splendid! ♥
Great if it were a passive protoss. Just went up against skytoss with 5 speed void rays who just went around the map sniping my bases then backing off until he had carriers massed. What do?
Or they might go straight to the Spire and Layer
Annihilation commencing.
I gave the 910th upvote.
This great tip for real listen to this guy he will help you be a better Zerg player!
For the swarm!
Is skytoss just carriers and voidrays?
and if i he has high temlar into the mix?
For the swarm. Zerg is pretty but Neuro is beautiful.
Eye opening
Fastest skytoss can hit at 6:30with 2 plus1 carrier and a void ray, which you can’t defend with queens
At 6:30 in this game Neuro had 9 queens on his hotkey plus maybe a few more unhotkeyed, plus spores at every base. That would be more than enough to beat 2 carriers and a void ray.
@@wanderhillen2435 i think he meant 4:30... in pvp i got hit by 2 proxy voidrays at 4:05
@@AloofOof 2 voidrays take significantly less time to make than the 2 carriers plus a voidray mentioned in the OP, since they take longer to make individually (~60 seconds vs ~40 seconds) and also require a fleet beacon which will take another 43 seconds before carrier production can even start. I don't think it's physically possible to get 2 carriers plus a void ray at your opponents base at 4:30, but it would be cool to see what the minimum time is. Probably paying for it all would be the main blocker.
@@wanderhillen2435 uhh totaly forgot about fleet becon... ye definitly closer to 6 then
Nice
See? Skytoss isn't that hard to deal with. If your complaint is "protoss just sits back and does nothing and I gotta work a gorillion times harder to beat them while they a move" the problem is you LET THEM
You still gotta work a gorillion times harder. Perfectly macroing on 4 bases within 10 minutes is 1000x harder than just sitting on your natural and third with shit macro and spamming carriers.
Are u a god or what ?
No spores?
You can mass them but it ends up making a much longer split map game, which is valid but a slower approach than just hitting corruptor critical mass and fighting.
Nydus All in wouldn't be better? I mean, he basically has no way to harass in this build so making drones is free, but I just nydus with a bunch of roaches and destroy his economy and all pylons. Queens is always the best answer, agains any build haha.
Queens are the better answer because even if they're not used to attack they'll still inject your bases and you'll have insane creep spread in case the game goes long somehow. Roaches become less useful as the game progresses and one or two early Voidrays sent out to harass could ruin your push if they spot the Roaches moving across the map. If Queens are spotted, the Voidrays are the ones who'll have to turn around.
How do you nydus vs a defensive void blob?
@@doltBmB Just make it to 5:00 timing and there are 1 Voidray at max
@@vadymvv skytoss 5:00 without a single voidray are you high
I dont see any adept harrassment.
isnt the protoss really bad at macroing? if he hides his carriers behind his cannons you simply cant engage like that
He's not "bad" at macro, but you can't win the macro race as two base Protoss against Zerg with three to four bases.
Cannons won't cut it in this situation. They can defend Carriers in one location, but then the Corruptors are free to siege down the rest of the Protoss base. If you see Carriers hiding behind Cannons, just send your Corruptors to the other base and siege down the Nexus and the 1~2 cannons they may have placed to protect the workers.
The point is that Starcraft isn't a game where you can shut yourself into your corner, max out your army and win. That's because you're either giving up too many macro opportunities by walling yourself in with two bases or you're giving up too much defense because Protoss won't be able to defend a committed attack until ~7 minutes into the game. Even if all your Zerglings, Banelings (only if you scouted a good number of Zealots), Roaches, or whatever die in that attack, they'll never be able to catch up on macro after that and your bases are still safe thanks to the Queens and Corruptors you should've been building to fend off any possible last desperation attack the Protoss may attempt after losing too many workers and bases.
This Protoss strategy makes the same mistake as the common Zerg responses. Step 4 is an easy win, but Step 1 already falls short. They know how to leverage their air superiority once they've gained it, but it takes them so long to reach critical mass that a Zerg correctly scouting Skytoss should have plenty response time to reach critical mass with Corruptors ahead of time.
Knowing when to scout and what to scout is key, which is why so much focus was put into the "clues" Neuro pointed out:
1. The Stargate
Protoss can't build fighting air units without it. Protoss has to commit to either Stargate, Robo or Twilight Council tech first before they can branch out more later.
2. Is there a full wall?
This is a strong indicator as they've decided to confine themselves on two bases.
3. When do they take gas?
Zealot All-ins require a lot of minerals. As noted by Neuro, most standard macro builds don't take Gas before 3:30. A Skytoss player needs Gas earlier.
Yorekani I’ve run into this problem lately....they just open cannon shield battery on all bases to the extreme and slowly building up carriers until critical mass
@@cjfletcher325 This describes the issue ive been having trouble breaking. 4-5 cannons in every base with shield batteries on skytoss. I know that means they are investing heavily and I should be able to break it somehow but I keep getting wrecked by this build.
@@Inbal_Feuchtwanger could always dive the nexus once or twice with curropters... send lings to one base to take the voids and carriers attention away and hit the third with a massive amount of curropters... what do I know though I lose to skytoss on the daily.
@@Yorekani Skytoss has a huge amount of excess minerals, they can easily put 5-10 cannons at EVERY base.
So idetefi
Drone
Quine
Drone
Mass curupter
Yse
yarp
Now show me how to deal with skytoss without going skytoss as P. Well, I'm a 20 year vet so I kind of already know the answer. But I believe P needs a buff and/or more variety in Anti-Air (that isn't air)
Currently when I'm facing a skytoss my deathball is made up of Blink Stalker/Archon/HT. The only units that actually can shoot in the air (that are ground)
Where as.. if you're T... you have.. Marines, Cyclones, Widow Mines, Thor... none of which you actually need cause simple M&M+upgrades dominate Skytoss (and most air armies in the game)
If you're Z.. less options, but still.. like M&M, (upgraded)Hydras alone beat the hell out of a Skytoss. Then on top of that Z dominates the air with Corruptors alone. The Viper is just the insult on top of it. And of course, infestors are icing (insult) for their anti air force. But even if we pretend Skyzerg isn't in the game... Hydras+Infestor(can even throw in queens) is all you need to beat Skytoss.
Conclusion: Skytoss is strong against P. Weak against T and Z. If they are not going to add more units... then I can think of no unit that needs a buff more than the Stalker. They fire slow, they are very 'squishy' for a race that's all about their health/armor superiority. The only thing Stalkers have going for them is their maneuverability.
Conclusion II: A Ground Toss army is arguably more GAS intensive than Skytoss. This should NEVER be the case. Ground Toss is broken and Blizzard has never addressed it since SC2 came out A DECADE ago.
🤦🤦♀️🤦♂️
Not as easy as it looks