I know I've heard of possible gang involvement here and there over the years. Stumbled upon something? Or just because? Strange though when ppl just vanish with their personal effects left behind...
I really doubt, "Gang involvement". I am guessing they thought they could do what they wanted to do and it didn't work out for them. Their house guess warned them but the city slicker feminist extremist attitude took over to their demise
@@allseeingotto2912 The internet, including this video loves the ''gang involvement'' and any murderer-theory. Its so stupid.. but ok - i know that since ''911 was an inside job'' .. internet-people are just so in love with spectacular theories .. Because it would be to boring to believe: they only get lost in jungle, and then died of starvation. Because this and that ..''how do you explain the bleached bones, the mint backbag'' , etc ... i know all those crap questions, and there are easy explainations for it. But its soo much more thrilling for people to believe in murderer-theories. Thats why whole channels on youtube make a living out of murderer-stories.
I don't understand how people can be so naive.....it would be dangerous for 2 guys even....and how much more for women.....are people doing their due diligence about these places they visit?
Westerners only know about yellow fever, but the rest of the world has “white fever”, which is 10 million times more common than yellow fever in the west. Most Westerners will know nothing about this until 2024 😅😂
@@Albertanator Yes, but there must've been some element of trust. These girls were very bright and meticulous, self-aware and relatively healthy tho Lisanne had a slight cold it is said. So someone could've betrayed their trust...charming young men with bad intentions? Who reassured them they knew the territory and could protect them ? Naive possibly, but charmers can be very clever and manipulative , especially locals who are comfortable in their environment, using it for their own purposes? Heartbreaking mystery. 🌷🌿🌷
the thing that always got me is that they never recorded a goodbye message. in a lot of cases of people missing for quite some time with recording devices they record something. but these girls didnt do that. that leads me to believe they werent able to. i deffinetly think this was foul play
I just wrote this as a reply to another comment. This is a huge point to me for thinking there was foul play. I would think at least one of them would have recorded or even written it in a text so if the worst happened and they weren’t found there would be something to their families. Just this one point by itself makes me think foul play and then when you add in all the other things it’s so suspicious that something bad happened.
@@alloralou4722 i know right. In simulatie situations People always document something. Some sort of a goodbye message and this didnt happen suddenly since they did try to call 911. They should have time to record something even if was Just 1 of the girls Who recorded something its so weird to me.
@@demsterwoldelf my thinking too. Being lost for as many days there would have been a point, especially because they would have been getting weaker and weaker, that they would have realized this is it, we aren’t going to make it. If it were to happen to me I hope I would think to record or type a message to my family.
This is one of the main reasons why I lean towards foul play in this case. Just too many things don't add up for it to be any other explanation. Also, the fact that the backpack was moved and found in good condition despite it not being found for quite a while.
When you get lost, you don't immediately think "this is the end," and act accordingly with that. If they knew they were lost, and starving to death or injured, then yea that would make sense to leave a note or make a recording. But the one theory is they tried to cross a bridge, and it broke or they fell. Death can sneak up on you.
I've hiked the Pianista Trail last year. Foul play a 100% Why? You can't get lost there, like everyone who says the girls got lost, please do the trail and show me how you get lost there. There is cattle fences almost all the time next to you in that "jungle" and a river next to you that runs into town. I'm not a good hiker and my sense of direction is pretty bad, but if you dropped me there blindfolded I'd find my way back. Yes, it's a bit muddy but not too bad. At the beginning the offline map is about 50 meters off so occasionally you follow a wrong path but realize quickly you are on private property or a cattle fence blocks the way and you turn around. Everyone hikes in shorts and shirt btw because it's very warm and humid and the trail is easily accessible. The trail takes about 3 hours round trip tops and 70% is covered with cow shit. So yes green jungle vegetation left and right but remote? Dense? Hostile? No. You of course don't need a guide for finding your way. But people use guides for bird watching and finding monkey's and sloths. Anyway.... I have been traveling around the world over several months for the last 10 years. Alone and now with my boyfriend. So I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. It's completely different how you as a woman are perceived when alone or with other girls compared as to when traveling with a male companion. I have many stories to tell from my travels in the means of danger and safety and girls like Kris and Lisanne were aware and not stupid. So I'm sure they would not venture off the trail without good reason and they surely would want to avoid the extra "attention" you get as a female. I'm super careful myself, always. And I think it's common knowledge, not everywhere in the world a human life is valued the same. We even had a local here straight out telling us: "It's easy to get away with murder in Panama. Nobody cares enough." And she shrugged it off casually while talking about the loose laws in general and how in completely other regards (keeping wild animals as pets) benefited her goals in this country. It was a surreal conversation. Boquete itself is pretty safe I'd say. Great town. Most of the trails (for example "the lost waterfalls" or "pipeline trail") around town are on private property, so you pay to do it and register. You only meet other travelers there. Pianista is different. It's a trail also used by locals because there is farmland around it and people live there. And the trail technically goes further all the way to the bocas along villages. You can meet anyone there if you are walking long enough and far enough but you don't by mistake go missing. It's simply not that wild out there. So when I at the end of our hike asked my boyfriend: " So what do you say, did these girls get lost?" He just snorted. And I agree. I think they met someone they shouldn't have.
That's what happens when people have non-existent knowledge in geography, thinking that this fairly small Panama lies in the middle of the vast Amazon rainforest or smth.
Out of all the tales on RUclips whether nonfiction crime or even supernatural, 411 missing etc, this story has always given me deep and dark vibes. Sad. Prayers to their families and RIP.
Strange cause I'm the first to jump to a paranormal conclusion and this one strikes me as mundane just two girls who got lost no foul play nothing strange
It’s always been a red flag to me that someone tried to access one of the girls phone and got the password wrong several times. The authorities just assumed it was the friend and not a suspect/stranger trying to repeatedly access the phone
do you no your friend's password for their phones , that is the only reason? she was trying to open her friends phone, her friend was abducted or dead. poor girls
do you no your friends' passwords for their phone;s that is the only reason she was trying to open her friend's phone, her friend was abducted or dead? why would a stranger want to access the phone? poor girls
maybe was one of them trying to unlock the phone of the other, or if they were lost, with no water, food, mental state of person in such situation can go down, like being dezorientated, tired, cant think straight, can start to halucinate, but in such places wich are so isolated and being foreginer is usualy recipe for dissaster. for young europeans is normal to go travel across europe, but many thik that any place on earth is like home or majority of europe, they cant imagine danger, they are too naive. in my country moluntain rescue service every year in summers have to rescue bunch of young west european people, who come for summer, decide t go on a hike to a mountain velebit. so instead to ask locals or to follow the signs, they just take off on their own path thinking it is small easy mountain. there are wolves, bears and other animals, temperature during day in summer are high, it is very hot, so majority goes in flip flops and light summer clothes. they get lost, night comes, temperature can go under 0, so imagne being in flip lops and short summer clothes on below zero temperatures.. one french grup few years ago was rescued, they were cold, dehidrated coz they took no water, had no flashlighs, only phones( and tere is no signal at some points), when resuced they said how on map it seemed so short way to come from one side of moiuntain to another town on the other side of mountain. the mountain is 145km long in str8 line, without actual obsitacels on terrain wich you need to go around, or climb up, than go down. i think those girls or had fatal accident, or stumbeld onto some animal and become prey or maybe went deep into jungel and stumbel upon drug camp or something simmilar and that was their end..
I think the same thing! I know that if I were in a situation like this it's best to share my phone access with my friend in case one phone dies and we need to access the other. Unless of course, there was a third party involved trying to gain access.
One of the strangest cases I have ever heard. The fact videos Re still being made and stills being viewed by thousands prooves how alive this case still is within people's minds. I know it is still very much alive in my mind.
Countries always put tourism first. There's been so many times evidence has been manipulated, witnesses have been silenced or "missing" and cases shelved. There's corruption from the top to the bottom and those in power will use it at will.
def agree with this being a strong possibility.. thats real bad in many ways, to have to pretty young girls, who are also there with some social help groups. so its a bad look for tourists as well as foriegn Aid groups. Also these countries usually have the criminals, gangs, police and locals, all kinda in bed with eachother. And its always about money too. youd be surprised how much monetary Aid flows to these countries and departments. And the crime is insane in many regions, with no real policing, like in western Nations
Look at the photos of these girls! Trusting and naive. Innocent joy on their faces. Coming from a small Dutch village. No idea how rotten and evil people can be. Heartbreaking. RIP girls.
On every true crime video, it seems there's someone who comments how out of the many, many true crime cases they've watched, THAT one is the that sticks with them the most. This is that case for me--well, tied with the whole Turtle Island Thailand gang-corruption-coverup murders haha. Any theory on this case (or derivative) get be picked apart so it's frustrating. Some things start to make sense in your mind, it's all clicking together, and then you go "but wait, what about the _____ " So yeah the only thing i'm certain of is that i'm not certain. I do notice however, that people who support the theory that they just got lost (whether coupled with an animal attack, a fall of a cliff, effects of dehydration etc.) don't seem able or willing to refute arguments for the (a) foul play theory. Even to believe they were kidnapped by a gang would open up so many more questions that have left people scratching their heads. But I tend to lean towards some form of the foul play theory, and here why. Points that contradict the theory that they just got lost: 1) the backpack -- it was found 70 days after the girls' disappearance, beside a river bank 15 km away from the pianista trail. The lady who found it said she was at the same spot the day before but didn't see any backpack there. The backpack was NOT wet -- it was in pristine condition and the items inside were dry and appeared untouched. The phones and digital camera were in there, so it becomes difficult to see how the girls could've been the ones taking the pictures and calling emergency services in the jungle for 11 days, and yet the backpack doesn't get wet or dirty, and somehow makes a long journey on its own without getting wet. 2) Lisanne's severed left foot was found in her hiking boot, and the cut was clean -- This disproves any animal attack theory and shows a human being cut off her foot. Unless Pokemon are real and a Scyther jumped out and cut her foot off, then it was a human. It can't be argued that an animal could have done that, plus the boot was clean and still tied to her foot, with no sign of scratches or claw marks Honestly, I don't see how anyone can believe they just got lost given the above 2 points. Ok let's tack on some more for goal differential :P 3) Pictures -- I'm hoping people have watched/read other things about this case, to gather more details. The daytime pictures and nighttime pictures tell completely different (albeit incomplete) stories. Timeline: they start their hike on April 1st. Yikes, I didn't even notice that was April Fool's, ugh. -> daytime pictures - The girls are smiling. These are the ones at the foot of the trail, along it and leading up to them reaching the peak where I wish they had been able to turn back. In the strange pictures of Kris beside the stream of water and crouched by the bushes, she's not smiling at all and some believe at this point they were either kidnapped or had run into another group and knew they were dangerous. These initial pictures were taken before 1:30-2:00pm, so that refutes the taxi driver saying he dropped them off at that time. Nope, he might've just misremembered but this notion that they started their hike at 2pm is simply false. MORE on that taxi driver in a bit .... -> nighttime pictures - After 2pm on April 1st, no one used the camera for 7 days. It just doesn't make sense, if they were alone and simply lost, to not have a SINGLE picture of them, or anything in the daytime for that matter. But then on April 8th, someone took more than 90 photos in less than 3 hours -- those hours were between 1am-4am. This is where the "they just got lost" camp suggests that these photos were meant to light up the area so they could see their surroundings, perhaps signal an airplane or search party, or perhaps scare off an animal they (or rather just she, by this point) might have heard. I have to admit, whyy would kidnappers be out at 1-4am taking pictures though? Best chance to not be seen as they make it look like the girls took the pictures in the jungle? Oh, I dunno. But then again, WHY was there 0 camera activity for 7 days? Then there's the deleted photo and this one's a mammoth. Keep in mind that pictures were taken on a digital camera, not their phones. A computer must be used to fully erase a photo, and the Canon company itself confirmed this. It makes a strong argument that the girls managed to get a picture of something or someone incriminating, and whoever kidnapped them (* cough Feliciano Gonzales) had to have deleted the picture. 4) Phones -- alright so on the first day, April 1st, the first emergency call to 112 was placed just after 4:30pm. Then a call was placed to 911 but didn't get through. Then phones turned off for 14 hours. Again, why? If they were lost and had their phones, how do they both go 14 hours without having their phone on? In total, they made about 80 calls. On day 5 (April 5th) LIsanne's phone died. Kris's phone stayed on until day 11 but between April 7th-10th Kris's phone was off/had no activity. It was turned on again, for the last time, at 10:51am on April 11th. It was turned off exactly an hour later at 11:51am, and this was the end of any phone activity. On April 6th, there were several attempts to enter an incorrect code. There were dozens of attempts up until April 11th. The girls obviously would have exchanged pass codes so it's very unlikely that Lisanne would've been locked out of Kris's phone. Plus, they didn't need a pass code to make an emergency call so investigators concluded it was unlikely to have been Lisanne trying to enter the code. The girls hadn't called home or the place they were staying, or anything other than emergency services in those 11 days so that seemed a bit strange. Why "dozens" of attempts to enter a phone, unless it was kidnappers looking for photos or something before they plant the phones in the backpack and leave them by the river. 5) Tour guide / gang members Oh I gotta wrap this up. No one's reading anyway but I can't sleep so let's write until the eyes get heavy haha. Okay but yeah, let's go over some of these characters. Feliciano Gonzales - the tour guide Internet sleuths like me believe he's our guy. He basically IS a red flag, everything that he does. The girls were supposed to meet with Feliciano but they didn't. So after the girls went missing, he went over to the place they were staying and was in the girls' room for 30 minutes. There wasn't a door key in the backpack that was found, which doesn't make sense. Then of course it's Feliciano who spotted the boot with Lisanne's severed foot in it, and other bones. 33 bones were discovered, one pair of jean shorts, and one shoe from each of the girls. Then there was a rolled up ball of human skin. Then you look at Feliciano's tripadvisor reviews online and the one where he threatens a woman with a machete sticks out. Machete, clean cut above the ankle, hmm. OH, and then the suspicious deaths. Over 10 people connected to the case have died, including 4 member of the Los gang. The one gang member who survived? Henri Elizas Gonzales, Feliciano's son. Alright. Taxi driver -- named Leonardo Gonzales -- drove the girls to la pianista, told police he saw a pickup truck near where he dropped the girls off. He was found dead in a river, 7 months after the girls' disappearance. Gang member 1 - Osman Velezuales (23 years old) - died April 4th (3 days after the girls' disappearance). 2 - Juan Rivera Miranda (24) 3 - Jorge Murgas (23) 4 - Adonis Henriberto (23) One was drowned in a shallow pool, one hit and run, and I forget the other. I'm tired, still need to look up another supposed suspect named Plineo Montenegro. But yeah, again no one will have read this but forgive the long rant, anyway. This case just has so many strange elements to it. I mean, the girls actually had a compass, a solar power bank, and a knife in their room. They obviously would've taken these if they planned to go on a long hike, which further makes me believe they were intercepted at some point on the trail. It just seems obvious that there was foul play involved. Foul play's a euphemism for what Lisanne and Kris went through, and I can't see any way they just got lost. Again they didn't pack much, they didn't take any daytime photos after the first 2 hours of their hike, the condition of the bone fragments, the knowledge of gang/police/government corruption in Panama, all of it. If they were lost, wouldn't they have tried to mark where they've been? It's dense jungle but even little pieces of clothing tied to a tree could be seen by people searching. What about trying to make SOS signs out of rocks or sticks?> Or at least make piles of random sticks and brush so you'll know you've been there before, and people searching can tell a human made those piles. I dunno, it just seems a bit disrespectful to the girls and their lives to believe they were foolish and got lost. Just think, if Lisanne or Kris was your daughter, would you be able to look at this case and accept that the girls must've just got lost? Evidence for them being lost pales in comparison to them being kidnapped, does it not? Then again, I could be wrong :)
Damn that was a fantastic write up! So much info that the video did not include. Foul play seems almost certain to me. So wasn't Feliciano Gonzales and his son interrogated and what are they doing today? And what about all the other disappearings?
Yes u are right but we can't do anything except praying for those girls souls and their families. I wish one day justice would served to them. Thank you for such deep details and your write up. May God bless u.
I wish Netflix would do a crime doc on this case. It would make a fascinating story even more well known and give it maximum exposure, though it may be too late for anything further to come out.
This case has already been covered extensively and according to everything I’ve seen, there are just not enough leads and nothing viable enough to make any accurate assumptions. Other than the most obvious, got lost or were kidnapped and murdered theory. I dunno, this is a case I’ve always wanted to know the answer too.
This case still haunts me. Not only was the backpack found far from where they were last seen, but it was completely on the other side of the watershed that runs between Chiriqui province and Bocas del Torro Province. The girls would have had to have hiked up one of three river valleys, the Pianista River valley, the Paloma River valley or perhaps the Palo Alto river valley. These are the most logical ways for them to have hiked, as the trail from where they left follows the el Pianista for a short while. Whichever way they went they would have had to climb up to about 1800m at least if not 2000m to cross the watershed and enter the other drainage. The Culebra river is NOT JUST 15 km from where the women were last seen! It is over 35 km away AS THE CROW FLIES!!! Also, this guy means the Chianguinola RIVER not the Chianguinola PROVINCE! Chianguinola Province is all the way over on the EAST COAST! Chianguinola Province is over 70km from where the girls were. In order to get to the Culebra River the girls would have had to hike up El Pianista, climb 1800-2000m cross the watershed and enter Bocas del Torro Province. From there if they went downhill they would have entered into the Chianguinola river drainage first. Most likely around the middle fork of the Chianguinola river. From there they would have had to hike down the Chianguinola river. The Culebre river empties into the Chianguinola river near Punta Blanca and La Mina where the two rivers form a lake. That is an insane distance from where the girls were last seen. It is at least 35 if not 40 km!!!! Also, where the bags were found was UPRIVER on the Culebre, so the girls would have had to go up the Pianista river, cross the watershed at 1800m to 2000m of elevation, go down into the Chianguinola river drainage. They would then have had to follow this river for like 40 km and finally they would have had to GO UP THE CULEBRA RIVER in order to get to the small village near where the packs were found. There were hundreds of fingerprints on their backpacks and belongings. Accident theory: On one hand, it is very easy for someone to slip, have a fall and hurt themselves, but there were two of them. The girls were obviously not planning on hiking, but they still could have survived a very long time without food there, and being in a river drainage, they would have had plenty of access to water. The temperatures in that area in April are on average between 25°C and 15°C. Higher up they temperatures would have been a little cooler. The girls certainly would not have died of the heat up there in April. Ironically, it would have been quite possible for them to get hypothermia at night especially if they were wet. It is almost always wet in that area. Did they have anything with them to make a fire with? I do not know what the girls' hiking or orienteering skills were like, or if they really knew where they were going, when they set out. It does not seem like they planned to hike for days. It looks more like the planned to go the 750 or so meters up the La Pianista trail to the summit, make some photos and return. Did they get turned around and go into the Chianguinola river drainage thinking it was the Pianista river? That is possible, but they would have certainly realized that at some point. If not by dark om the first day, then certainly by noon the next day. I find it highly unlikely that they would travel 40 km down the Chianguinola river, passing the rather large Rio Playita entering the Chianguinola from the left (West) and even passing the river Estrelita also entering from the left or West only to turn up the Culebre after what would have taken them at least 2-5 days and over 40km of hiking. It just does not make sense. Unless they did not know what they were doing got lost and panicked? If they had any sense at all and had been camping or hiking at all before then I just do not see this happening. As far as I can recall the weather was nice for a few days and then it did rain. Perhaps they got turned around and were lost headed down the Chianguinola thinking it was the Pianista for awhile and then got caught in a flash flood? Their bones from what I understand, were found strewn all over. Most of them were in the riverbed, but some where higher up. If I recall correctly the bones were found years after the girls disappeared. One was a boot with the girl's foot still in it, but there was no signs of severing or broken bones and the investigators believe that the limb became separated after severe decomposition. Drowning would explain why most of the bones were found in the river drainage. The bones found higher up on the banks could have been carried there by scavenging animals. Apart from that, there are venomous snakes and jaguars, but those scenarios are pretty unlikely. I suppose it could have been possible for one of them to have gotten hurt and then have been predated by jaguars, but this theory is very implausible. The most likely scenario here is that one of the girls got hurt and the other girl went for help and got lost or hurt herself. Foul Play: Foul play seems to be the most likely theory to me. Their packs were found 40 km away from La Pianista as the crow flies that is up one river over a continental divide of 2000m, then 35-40 km down another river and then up another river for like another 2-3 km. It seems unlikely that a gang would take them to the city and go clubbing with them only to come back out into the jungle and dispose of the bodies in such a remote area. There is no vehicle access out there. No. More likely they ran into someone or went with someone. Someone, whom they knew. Maybe someone, who was going to "show them the area". He got them out there alone and he murdered them. It could have been up to several people. If they partied perhaps they wanted to party in the jungle. This seems far more plausible to me. As much as I know how easy it is for people to die of exposure. I cannot imagine that it what happened to them. That area is remote, but it is not like no one walks along those trails. There are huts, sheds, remote homesteads along the Rio Chianguinola on both sides. A few of them are probably visible from the river. If the houses had any kind of lighting, they would have been very visible at night.
@@joeycee2585 Sure. I became obsessed with this case. In the end I just did not have enough information to be able to determine what really happened to them. It is so sad.
As a woman I doubt they willingly went with a strange man even if they knew him after meeting him there or several men at that. They were taken against their will and murdered.😥
Sad story for sure. It is a true mystery, I read that they did have an appointment with a guide but decided to go for a brief walk. I am from Panama and through the years the situation with crime, drugs and gangs has become a true nightmare with abductions and all sorts of crimes, the only predatorial animal in these areas would be jaguar but they never seek out any kind of contact with humans as tigers or other big cats, they walk the other way and you'd be blessed to have a peek at one scurrying by. I would not doubt that these girls ended up crossing paths with people capable of something so horrible. Under the cover of the jungle and feared by locals so many crimes can be done. May God keep these beautiful girls in his memory and bring justice to any one involved with their deaths.,
I might be able to accept the accident in nature theory if it were just one woman. But two adults don’t drown at once and two adults don’t simultaneously get bit by a snake. I think they were killed, unfortunately. This is the problem with travel to these beautiful, but remote, areas. You just have to hope you don’t run afoul of some bad actors.
2 adults down at once all the time, one gets in trouble, the other attempts a rescue, the drowning one in full panic clings to and drowns the other. At the beach my mom, her best friend, her best friend daughter and a girl my sister dragged along went out deep and my mom turned around and saw the girl was drowning and was on top of her best friends daughter shoving her under trying to keep herself up so my Mom and her bf swam over and the girl lunged for my mom and my mom screamed, "NO" in her face and shoved a floatation device at her cause she was about to start climbing on top of my mom in her panic. Apparently she couldn't swim (I say girl but she was in her 30s) and didn't think to mention it to anyone and followed them out over her head w only a pool noodle that got away from her. If my mom and her bf hadn't been out there she'd have 100% drown the other girl before anyone could've reached them.
@@unchargedpickles6372 Yeah. It happened in the small town I grew up in, a bunch of young people swimming at a lake, one got in trouble, his brother dove in to help, they both drowned. Their sister was in my class, the whole town was devastated, they were 18 and 21, both nice, popular kids. It’s extremely possible, sadly.
@@unchargedpickles6372 …drowning incidents you describe certainly happen. With that said, the discovery of some of their remains excludes this from consideration. If one suddenly lost her footing and fell..perhaps off a cliff…I doubt the other one would abandon all caution and allow herself to fall down there as well. Exposure is unlikely due to abundance of water and mild temperatures.. Sadly, I think that two fair-haired attractive girls arriving in this area by themselves would have been noticed by many many people. They would have been easy to follow by those that grew up on these mountains and unfortunately their deaths at the hands of others is not easy to dismiss.
@@unchargedpickles6372 True me and a friend one time saved my friend's brother from drowning in one of those wild water courses in a swimming pool. Don't know the right word in English but basically it's a course where there is a current pushing you a certain path and it goes in laps so to speak. I stood by the stairs which is the only way out and my friend jumped in to get him above water and when they came round I grabbed my friend his hand who was holding his brother at the same time and was able to pull them to the stairs. If you would save someone just by yourself without someone pulling you back it would be likely the person in distress would pull you down. Happens often enough so this might have happened here too.
It may not have been like that though. Two don't necessarily have to drown or get bitten by a snake at the same time. Chances are, they got lost, one had an accident and died first, and the other perished afterwards. Or they both got lost and died from exposure, lack of food and water etc.
I think nobody ever mentioned the fact that Kris' hair looks very clean in that final photo of the back of her head. If the photo was taken more than a week after they went missing, there is no way that her hair would have been THAT clean. Something is not right.
Apparently Kris and Lisanne arrived at the stream location 508 at about 1:30 pm AND the first emergency call 112 was made at about 4:30 pm. There were 3 hours in between. How can we say without any doubt that these girls were STILL there ? My hypothesis is that they have already turned back at 508 ( last daytime photo location) and spent approximately 2 hours walking back to the trail head. Then they were picked up by a red truck ( no taxi available) and drove in the direction of the Caldera. 2+1=3 hours. These Dutch girls were either abducted or murdered inside a village house in the area. No photoshopping has been done but the sequence has been changed. My theory : foul play by the gang.
actually I watched a very in depth video on this case by another youtuber (cant remember who), who had shown that there are actually doubts on any of the timings listed for that first day as there were "witnesses" who saw the girls allegedly at a certain time, the time the taxi driver allegedly dropped them off is a completely different time to that and the time on the devices etc are all completely different times to both of these too - I think there was also a mention about the camera time being off too (pre set time etc). so there are seemingly also doubts and no 100% on the times either. however I have seen theories too (like you said) that they possibly got a bit into the trail, headed back, couldn't find their way back or a taxi properly and it was a sort of hitchhiking gone wrong scenario - which I guess could add up to foul play and why the girls couldnt be found when rescue teams went in for them.
I’ve immersed myself in this case. Every time I think of a theory, I realize that some component of it is disproven by another piece of evidence. This is the most baffling mystery.
Not at all, there are no real disproves that they were kidnapped/murdered and this theory makes sense. Weird behaviour of government and their guide just tells it all
I watched a documentary that said they went to the summit and then they got down again (one girl carries the bag uphill, the other one downhill, as seen in the pics.). Some guys were waiting for them downhill nd then all of them went to some hot springs or sth like that. There's even pics of the girls with the local guys at that place. What happened next is they were raped and beaten and locked up in a cabin. Some of the guys are come from local powerful families. 2 or 3 of them "died in accidents" probably bcs they wanted to tell the truth. One of them told all of this to his girlfriend, who then run away in another country and talked to the guy who made the documentary. Everything he said made a lot of sense and logic. İt's a two part doc., Almost 2hrs long in total if I remember right, so I don't know why someone would bother so much and mde up so many things. He even said there'll be a third part but at the time I watched it, there wasn't. I'll post a link if I can remember it
Panama....who the hell goes to Panama really...it's way down nowhere...Besides, all these places are corrupt as hell...And Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I would never go to these kind of countries let alone allow my young daughter to go!!!! Don't care what her age is!!!! Not even over MY dead body. Sorry, but some, many, countries are not OK for travel, period.
@@daisyspanhakbon1364 exactly. And if you are white (gringo) everyone is trying to rip you off and make more money from you, imagine the US behaving like this towards the many members of the latinx community here. There would be outrage!
3:40 - that's messed up, the school confirmed they wanted international volunteers but once the pair arrived, turned them down; in other words the school lured them in under false pretenses. If the school had told them the truth beforehand during their first contact and come clean about not wanting non fluent Spanish speakers, the two women probably would have never gone down to Panama in the first place.
The school was in on their murder. They were tied with a youth gang member who allegedly went swimming with the girls. They returned from their hike and went to go swim with the boys, and then were murdered. Kris knew one of the youth gang members before she went to Panama, she had him as a contact on her phone in Whatsapp.
Yes I thought that was terrible of them, if not strange. To confirm their attendance a few days prior to their arrival and then say they weren't needed after all is odd. Very odd indeed .
The saddest part of all this is after they found the phone. The phone showed that the last attempt to call for help by the girls was only 15 hours prior to the parents starting to search for them where they went missing. Something about this case is so creepy. I hope they both R.I.P they seemed to be beautiful souls. 😢😢😢
Why didn't you mention the suspicious tour guide involved with Lisanne and Kris before their hike? There was apparently a TripAdvisor review by a female customer that described his border-line sexual harassment and a creepy joke involving a machete. Also his "helpful" actions pre- and during investigation remind me of the stereotypical arsonist that "assists" authorities in arson investigations.
I live in Ecuador. As here in Ecuador, Panama has an early sunset. This is something people from North of the equator don't think about. The sun sets at 6:30 every day of the year. Little different in Panama. But similar. With cloud cover and in a wooded area it is pitch black by 6:45. I've been lost in the woods at night before and could only rely on the sound of a stream going downhill to know where I was going. I would guess accident caused by a situational awareness breakdown. Just like being blind in a snowstorm, a pitch black jungle sounds and looks the same no matter the direction you travel.
@@PlumbNutz it wasn't a jungle and a jungle doesn't delete photos. also, they were not seen while being in a search area the whole time, they didn't get lost
I have researched this intensely some 4 years ago, and I think I've got it figured out. Not the question, who exactly was the main culprit, but it's fairly clear they were abducted and kept as prisoners, and gangr*ped over a long time. As I speak Spanish, I could search local social media, and found quite a few off-the-record remarks and insider jokes, about "keeping gringos in the basement" and "being an abductor" or "girl killer". This area is narcos territory, and the local youth are heavily implicated with gang activity. Some of them had a beef with another group, and that's when they started hinting at what these guys were trying to hide. The locals probably all know who did it, but don't say a word, because there have already been a few suspicious deaths of people "who knew too much". The girls managed to flee, but fell down a ravine, this is when the last photos were taken. Kris died of her injuries, and Lisanne was taken back to the dungeon. When the parents arrived and search parties started to comb the area, the narcos got nervous and wanted the police and the reporters out of the area, which is riddled with hidden cocaine kitchens. That's when Lisanne was killed, too. Carefully selected remains of the girls were strategically placed, so that they could be found. A corrupt state prosecutor who was in the pockets of the narcos quickly concluded that they had gotten lost and fell victims to an accident. Case closed, now everybody go home, please. There are a lot of people who know the truth, and a lot of them should be behind bars. But the truth will never come out as long as drug lords rule over the area.
.... and then I have an eerie feeling that some of those "disinformation agents" or people who have an avid interest in dispelling any suspicion of foul play, are also active in this comments section. They are characterized by aggressively attacking anybody who questions the official narrative, and categorically ruling out any foul play.
Thank you for mentioning the corrupt state prosecutor. They even have the guts to publish a book "advertising" that the girls were lost. Makes you wonder about humanity.
Stop spreading lies. There are no cartels or drug lords in Boquete. Boquete is one of the most beautiful towns in Panama, and it is packed with tourists all year. Since it is such a popular tourist destination police patrol the area at all times. If you will claim Boquete is controlled by gangs or drug lords you better show where you got that info from because thats 100% bs
@@TheGothGaming Based on how the local police and authorities are handling evidences of the case, it is not unreasonable to say that the police and Panama authorities are corrupt, or incompetent at the very least. Incompetent and corrupt authorities breeds gangs and drug activity, that holds true everywhere in the world, not just Boquete. Questions like how photo #509 got deleted by a computer, or why evidences were not handled properly are unanswered. Info released by the Panamanian government is one thing, whether they are logical is another.
This story is full of lies, deceit & cover-ups when at the heart of it are two very broken families who deserve nothing but the truth. I hope the truth comes out one day, only then will these two young, vibrant, beautiful women be able to rest peacefully. All they wanted to do was live their lives to the fullest. My heart breaks for them. The police who ‘handled’ this case should be deeply ashamed. It’s embarrassing.
Whether it was by accident or a gang was involved, one thing that stood out that might have doomed these unfortunate girls: their stubborness. They've been warned that the trail would be risky for two inexperienced foreign girls to take yet they ignored it and went anyway. Taking an unfamiliar jungle trail without a guide was a disaster waiting to happen and, worse, they might even have underestimated it. From the time they departed for their ill-advised trek to nowhere, they were already doomed.
The taxi driver, the tour guide and what sounds like someone or a few people with machete. Could be that the tour guide was upset he didn't get the contract. Though that contract obligatory in that country as most women can see now
that photo with the head and blonde hair explains a lot. The way the hair looks especialy on the upper side, and also lack of hair on the lower part, it is clear that somebody is holding that hair from the top, exactly the way you hold a head after beheading. So in this picture i'm 100% sure, that the girl's head wasn't attached to her body anymore. Take a look and analize.
The only way this case will get solved is if it is kept alive. The investigation was poorly conducted (perhaps on purpose) and the people responsible for their death are still out there. The people from the surrounding area know what happened but they will not speak without the proper protection. Reopen the case, let them speak and give them whatever protection they need. May the truth come forth.
They were abducted and r a p e d... after that... they were killed and whoever did it... attempted to dispose of them. Animals got to it (dug it up) and tried to hide the remains to consume them over time... after a while another animal found whatever was left. After which the remains were moved again. Which is why they randomly appear and were scattered in such odd places. No distinguishable pattern to see, the photos were taken either buy them or possibly whomever abducted them. Maybe they considered a ransom at first and scratched the idea later and just used them and killed them! Idk... I really don't know actually. This is a weird one, always has been.
While I agree with you that there was a foul play, I wanted to mention some information I read that says they died at dif times, the bodies were in dif states of decomposition. & that their remains were also found a good distant apart from each other. & lastly; I read that there was still bottled water & snacks in Lisannes book bag. If they were alive up to the 10 days (when the phone was still being turned on & passwords entered incorrectly) I believe they would’ve finished the water & eaten the snacks.. as they had not packed enough for such an unexpected, lengthy hike. (I think that’s also important given that the bag was found in good condition (despite supposedly having been subjected to the outdoor elements & was discovered a large distance away from where the girls remains were found. Not to mention the cell phones were found in the bag & not with their remains/bodies. & why would their bras have been in the bag & not on them ? So many unanswered questions/ things not adding up to a simple “2 girls hiking made a wrong turn & got lost.”
My heart aches and breaks for these two lovely young ladies. I really hope and pray they are at nothing but peace now....as they both so much deserve 💜❤️
My heart goes to these poor girls, I was born in Panama and my family is from David, Chiriqui and it’s disturbing to me. This was no accident. There is probably still a killer lurking
Wirklich sehr traurig das Ganze 😢 In 2012 bin ich die gleiche Strecke mit einem Guide gegangen. Dort oben kann man nicht von einfachen Wanderwegen sprechen. Sehr dichter Hochnebelregenwald und nicht immer einfach zu laufen. Ich war sehr froh nicht alleine gegangen zu sein und hoffte die ganze Zeit, dass ihm Nichts passieren würde, weil alleine hätte ich nicht zurück gefunden, um Hilfe zu holen oder ähnliches. Spät Nachmittag wurde es schnell dunkel, kühl und wilde Tiere gibt es dort auch.
I lived in Boquete for some time and it’s a shady place overall for a young woman, i actually moved there 4 months after this and i only heard the story once. I’m really sorry for what happened to them, good souls in a bad place.
I'm from the Argentine, a place not only geographically but culturally very different from Panama and according to most people quite safe compared to Central America. But no offence intended to Panamanians, both countries are Latin America and have complex social issues completely alien to most Europeans, Americans or Australians / New Zealanders. I have worked in tourism a lot as well, many people visit Buenos Aires and many other places in the country and everything goes usually smoothly, although cases like this one have happened here years ago in Northern provinces. So please, people from Europe and the US and everywhere else, heed this advice (especially girls, who tend to be less watchful): Latin America is an enormous place full of wonders and great people, but many areas are very isolated and wild. The rate of inhabitants per square km in South America is 28 while in Europe is 130 and in the US 40. That means, getting lost many times means finding no people or towns for days. Thence: travel in groups; don't venture in solitary areas alone; accept help from locals but be suspicious of groups of people insisting on helping no matter what; learn polite ways of saying no in local languages; tell people from your hotel / place where you go and for how long, and keep in contact; DON'T PARTY WITH STRANGERS; please understand that being blond / reddish white will call the attention of many, except in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Chile but not in all areas; stay safe and find emergency numbers before going anywhere; don't do drugs or get drunk in places full of strangers; don't solicit escort services; please stay safe.
Love your pic, the old SoM fan I am. I also love Argentina....I was in Buenos Aires and El Calafate for one month in january 2020, right before the Covid hit off.
So the missing photo was at the absolute my crucial moment. From when the girls were smiling an fine….*photo deleted*…and then they are in the dark forest. I don’t know what happened but protecting the tourism industry should never be overlooked. An wow, a guy who took a photo of them died days later mysteriously…yea foul play is looking more likely.
When I saw the picture @ 18:42 which he said was named, Jose Manuel, I distinctly remembered his pic because I just read about him. Anyway, his name is Jose Manuel Guzman from Texas, USA. His story is pretty gross. I'm not sure if the narrator was misinformed but I'm not certain of the credibility of this story. Just saying......🤔
I think they were held somewhere in a building for days. There was a weird tour guide who apparently had a ranch in the forest. I think maybe they were held there.
Another thing that always bothered me, is the picture of the blonde hair. That looks a lot like blood, not highlights or "strawberry blonde" hair to me.
- The girls didn't take photos for 2h30 between photo 508 and the first call to 112 - No photos either for 7 days before the 90 fotos in 3 hours- No sign at all where they are supposed to have been lost and injured both at the same time- No message to the family - And Lisanna alone protect the phones and the camera in the bag just before passing.
@@nickyblue4866 We already knew the Panamanian investigators were bad at preserving evidence. It’s quite a leap to say that proves the women were murdered.
This has always perplexed me. In order to permanently destroy the data so that it can't be recovered, you have to delete it and then write over it. Kris and Lisanne could have done this themselves. They could have decided they didn't want the picture, delete it, and then write over it while taking the night pictures. My question is, what data was written over the missing photo? Was it the night photos, or was it something else? And this really is a different subject, but how don't some people see giant red flags that the deleted photo marks the end of normality. The only picture they deleted just happens to precede everything going wrong. Here's something I just thought of. What if the part of the purpose of the night pictures was to cover up #509? What I mean is, the killer wants to plant the camera so that it looks like an accident, but his picture is on it. So he deletes the picture, but now he has to overwrite it with something so that it can't be restored... So he goes out and snaps a bunch of pictures including one of Kris' head, until he's satisfied that the data is overwritten. Just a random thought.
Anyone who thinks this wasn’t foul play doesn’t realise the world we’re living in at the moment they were murdered and dumped and probably wild animals scavenging took the remains away leaving them scattered throughout the landscape
Fact. There is no way it was accident. Too much activity going on in that area as we speak in regards to kidnappings, murder, gangs, and drugs. I bet the locals know more than theyre putting on too.
@@Enough_Tumbleweed And? How is that any different than any ghetto in any American city? This is why you pay attention to a literal sign saying "don't walk down this trail"... but these two young ladies weren't interested in the warning. They found out the hard way.
"Anyone who thinks this wasn’t foul play" - while i agree that's a highly possible explanation (considering the criminal element in the area), these pictures make me wonder if that's true (why the F would some dudes who abducted these girls even touch the camera, let alone take actual seemingly meaningless flash pictures in the dark? It doesn't make any sense). I'm thinking these girls got lost, and were using their phones to sporadically test whether they were in signal range, and those weird nighttime photos were probably to scare off animals (with the camera flash)...it just makes the most sense, and explains the phone/camera behavior perfectly.
The same 5 pictures over and over, text on the screen following exactly what the narrator is saying. This is some of the most irritating video editing Ive ever seen
This is such a good coverage of the case, but you forgot to mention the finding of a shoe from one of the girls that still has a clean cut foot in it, a testimony from local stated that some local men boasted about making some European women as their plaything, which was not included in the Panama's police record, as well as suspicion towards the girls's guide that actually has a connection to a local gang and previous conviction of criminals involving women. These evidences are strong indicators of foul play & cover up...
3:43 Terrific advanced planning here. Why WOULD a school want volunteers who couldn’t speak the language of the children? 21:00 The truth of the matter is that any 2 young, attractive women who put themselves is such a situation are just stupid. Of course they were murdered. Did they really think they could “just say no”? An unarmed man would be at risk there alone.
in another video, it says they were declined b/c school wasnt starting up yet. and to come back later. im sure the next video will mention Aliens from a spaceship got them...
Someone killed those girls for organs, I would think, but either way, someone killed those poor girls and put their bones where they were found down stream..the bags to. Weird how only some bones were found and the ones found were stripped. Also the two guys with them, the entire thing is sketch. Then how the school just bailed last minute??? Weird.
I mean the school bailing last minute was possibly unrelated. A good portion of latin americans do not give two fucks about other people's time (as someone from there)
The risk of 2 young well meaning attractive women setting out on a known sinister trail is incomprehensible. I'm sure they had the best of intentions of adventure and discovery. But very sadly met a horrible end probably like the last plausible cause as related.
They started their hike around 11:30, and the dog was not with them at all. But I think they made it back from the trail and got picked up by the "Gang of 5" near the restaurant. Several witnesses told police they saw them around 4:30. Several reported seeing the now famous red pickup truck too. The first emergency call was around 4:40? So, something spooked them once they got in the truck. It's also important to remember that the guide they had booked for Apirl 2 (Feliciano), gave an interview to Channel 21 in Panama during the search, stating he thought it was foul play because the guides would have found them had it been an accident.
I've dug quite a bit into this one in the past, and there is quite a bit more information out there about police corruption in the area and missing/murdered tourists there in previous years. Due to the area depending heavily on tourism, they have plenty of motivation to cover things up. (and total aside, but the fact that the host families didn't immediately alert the police is insane to me...both they and whatever company arranged the host families should face charges there)
There is an actual good video on RUclips that point out that people saw them return from their hike. And theorizes they went somewhere with someone afterwards.
@@amateurtouring That WOULD explain why Lisanne, an avid picture taker, didn't take any more pictures. If they returned no need to because plenty were taken on the way up. If they willingly moved further on, beyond the stream in picture 508 towards the monkey bridge why didn't Lisanne take any more pictures in this new and pretty area? The first monkey bridge was hours away yet not a single picture of the terrain between 508 and the first monkey bridge? That doesn't add up.
@@lyndoncmp5751 because they didn’t view the jungle as very pretty by then. They were over it and wanted nothing more than to go home. Iv seen several videos on this story and Iv never heard anyone say they had seen them return. Sounds like something the host family would say to cover their ass! I feel like with all the pics they had taken of pretty much nothing or everything they were being chased deeper into the jungle. People don’t realize it but it’s dark AF in the jungle. What little light that makes it to the jungle floor is usually gone by 3pm. Maybe they were using the flash to light their way. But I would think that would have the opposite effect.
@@lyndoncmp5751 Someone had taken the flash card out of the camera, and manipulated it with Photoshop. Some photos were deleted and others rearranged in a different chronological order. They even magnified portions of a photo and copied it over other photos. You can tell by the rain patterns on the photos that were taken in the dark. The exact same rain patterns can be found in several photos, but in different degrees of magnification to make it look as if they were different photos. This was probably done because some of the original photos showed the persecutors, who had followed the girls after their attempt to escape.
Would be interesting to know details from the other cases that happened later on the same trail. If more hikers get lost on the same trail and there is evidence for foul play I could immagine that the same person or group of people were also involved earlier.
It's sad these girls and their families didn't know how dangerous Panama is. I've had friends that were deployed there in the US army and they related how extremely lawless and dangerous most of Panama is.
@@callumg_0147 How about it's so safe, thousands of North Americans and Europeans are living there and not one of them has been murdered yet? The Nomadic Movement live exactly in the area these girls disappeared and they even have their little daughter living with them. Three years in and they are loving it. Nobody has murdered them yet, lol. Those girls got lost and the elements killed them. They were not Navy SEAL's trained to survive in the jungle, for Christ's sake.
There has been so much said about this case already. It's like we all know the answer, if not the exact details or the perpetrators. The girls were murdered; all evidence points to that. Even the authorities said early on that it was foul play. But they quickly retracted their story soon after for fear of losing out on tourism and/or having to go against some locals which they didn't want to deal with. It seems to be a corrupt place, where they're dealing with issues in a peculiar way. It was such a mistake for the girls to travel to Panama, just the two of them on their own. They could have gone with an arranged group-tour not to be subjected to unpleasant surprises or having to lose their lives. R.I.P.
Just don’t travel to south america/central america just to walk in the jungle. It’s not worth it. The government will cover things up if somethings happens and the criminal gang/cartel rate is huge. Please think before you travel🙏🏾
I mean, my friend lived in and traveled alone across Brazil for 3 years and nothing happened. These girls were unprepared and careless. Mistake #1: going into a wild jungle hike alone, without a guide or some trusted local, Mistake #2: going for a hike so late at 2pm, which is only 4 hours before full darkness sets in, Mistake #3: not turning back and going beyond the Mirador point despite warnings, Mistake #4: not carrying any emergency supplies like alcohol pads for wounds, lighter, flashlight, etc, Mistake #5: dressing up NOT for a jungle hike, making themselves a target for bug bites, cuts and scratches, Mistake #6: going swimming to the remote waterfall area with untrusted guys - gang members (not certain but still). I can go on and on. They should have paid a trusted local guide to take them to all those remote areas and inform everyone of who they're going with & where before heading out. And did some google searches on what to pack and how to dress on a jungle hike.
@@EvgeniyaJZ It is NOT a jungle and they did not get lost, so #1 to #5 is not applicable here. #6 is the one that hits home. They were kidnapped by gang members.
The real question everyone should be asking is what kind of parent doesn't hop on the first flight to their children's whereabouts because they're "afraid of planes".
11:28 That's not reddish-blonde hair. That's thin blonde hair over pinkish skin. If you look at the pictures of the girls, the one with blonde hair has thin hair, you can see it from her part-- thicker hair has more volume, and you don't usually see that much of the scalp unless it's done super neatly. There's bloom in the shot-- look at the way the color of her hair bleeds into the background. That piece of reddened hair is just a result of camera artfacting, reflecting her skin into the hair. Which leads me to believe this is a photo of the back of her head. It's super tangled, probably because she hadn't tied it back (they weren't expecting to be out there long.) But the thing that raises red flags for me is that stray brown hair in the image. That's not a camera quirk, that's definitely hair. But why would her hair be angled like that? Reaching towards her friend? I have long brown hair, this really only happens if you're taking an image of something below you and your hair ends up dangling in the shot. Then there's the way her hair is resting. You can see her forelock angled out, really all of her hair fanning out, but as you can see from the rest of the images, her hair isn't styled, it's flat. The only way I could see it appearing this way, if it really is the back of her head, is if she were laying down with her face in the dirt, and her friend (or someone else with longer brow hair,) is taking the picture while standing over her.
What I’ve never understood was when the backpack was found, both of the bras they were wearing at beginning of the hike were inside. Why would they take them off? That doesn’t make sense to me.
And if there was a major accident, they would have utilised the bras as a bandage, strapping or padding. They didnt have anything else for the purpose. Yet they didn't do so.
Never thought the accident theory held water personally. They were both young and strong - one was a volleyball player but both hiked this trail in very good time according to the time stamps on their pictures so they were clearly sure footed and fit. So very doubtful both would befall an accidental drowning or fall in my opinion. The temps were warm and plenty of water and insect life so they would survive many weeks if lost, and presumably both intelligent with university degrees so would not wander too far off once they realized they were lost. Finally, if they had been injured and those pictures were used to ward off animals etc and they were conserving battery - I still think that when they were beginning to lose hope - they would have used their remaining battery to record a message or text for their families saying what happened and goodbye. They were both very close to their families. There is no way they would run out their batteries taking pictures of hair and garbage and trees and not leave a message for their parents. All the evidence was staged to look accidental in my opinion.
Could the missing photo have shown too much? Would the suspected guide or anybody else would follow them for days?... Would a third party have let them the possibility of even trying to make an emergency call? I doubt that the members of a gang would come to the idea of taking photos for several days and would take the time to do it.
Malarky, anyone can have an accidental including athletes. Look at Uli Steck, world class mountaineer who died from a simple fall while practicing. Odds are they were using the camera flash as a flash light to find their way in the dark. The deleted photo could be anything. Everyone has taken a dumb photo and decided to delete it. The story doesn't make sense to be foul play. A murderer wouldn't spend days playing with the phones just to establish a fake story to hide the crime. The conditioned that the backpack was found in was strange but not unexplainable. If anything nefarious went on I'm sure it's more thr incompetence of the Panamanian searchers and authorities.
Spoken like someone with no experience in the wilderness. Doesn't matter how fit you are if you slip and fall in the cloud forest, you're done. They weren't in a city park, they were in the mountainous jungle at a high elevation with steep cliffs and harsh climate. They had no outdoor gear, no map, no GPS, they were extremely naive city people who went into the hostile wilderness alone. There could've been foul play, but all these "accident theory makes no sense" comments are from city people with no experience in nature. Just look at how many people vanish in national parks across the US every year.
For two relatively strong, healthy women to both have an accident that crippled them is highly unlikely. There has been speculation that the guide they booked has had many harassment charges against him and that something could have gone wrong somewhere during their guided hike. I hope one day the real answer, without speculation, comes out. My thoughts are with their families and loved ones. Please - be careful out there, particularly in new areas.
@Christopher Bingham Well, it was exactly THIS guide who broke into the girls' room after their disappearance and went through their belongings. And it was exactly this guide who oh so happened to find remains of the girls not just once, but twice ! in the middle of the jungle. And the Indio woman who found the backpack just oh so happened to work for exactly this guide. Don't you think that's at least a bit suspicious?
@@christopherbingham5092 I am not saying that the tour guide is guilty or innocent but those 5 star reviews are mostly from women accompanied by men, or a bigger group of people including other men, or families where a man is present, the negative review was from a woman traveling alone without the company of a man, I think what I'm trying to say is pretty obvious, her experience was a lot worse because she was a young female traveling alone, while the others had good experiences.
@@christopherbingham5092 1. Yes he got permission from the hostess Miriam. That doesn't make it okay, it just means she was wrong too. Miriam claims she made the girls dinner on the night of the 1st, and waited up till 11pm for them to come home. But she never rang them. In the morning she left the house without checking if they came home, without ringing them. It wasn't until the phone call from Feliciano at 10am on the 2nd that it occurred to her that there was a problem. Why didn't Miriam call them? Why did Miriam allow a strange man they don't know to snoop around in their bedroom? What if they'd been in bed undressed? It's bizarre. And what was the point of him going into their bedroom, what was he looking for? 2. The remains Feliciano found were scant enough that they didn't show evidence of a cause of death. Knowing the area doesn't mean you should have spidey-senses about where remains are. And the murder theory doesn't say Feliciano did it, it says his son did it. 3. You call it trust, I call it power. The Latino landowners have power over the indigenous people. The witness Martina has said that Feliciano has threatened her to keep quiet, and she's not the only one. 5-star reviews from men or women-with-men are irrelevant, we're talking about unaccompanied women. Of which the reviews are pretty dire, one saying he kept touching her and made her feel threatened, even joking about chopping her legs off.
@@christopherbingham5092 1. Miriam is not necessarily directly involved, it could just be she's a bad hostess. But her actions deserve questioning. Even if Miriam consented to Feliciano in their bedroom, the girls didn't. It's not appropriate to give out the key to girls' bedrooms, so a tour guide known to be sleazy with European girls can snoop around just because he says they were late for a hike. We only have Feliciano's word they booked a hike with him for the 2nd, the families say the girls booked a hike with Feliciano for the 6th, not the 2nd. And the German girl Eileen who Feliciano says booked the appointment for the girls, she quickly went back to Germany and was never questioned by police. 2. The murder theory says they planted selected remains to show the girls were dead, to make the parents go away, thus closing the case. The parents had publicly vowed not to leave Panama if their daughters might still be alive. Locals said the Panamanian authorities only took the case seriously in front of the parents. Another motive may've been to claim the $30,000 reward, a life-changing sum to most Panamanians. There were multiple fingerprints and DNA found on the backpack. Irma and Luis, the indigenous couple who found it, contradicted each other about how they found it. They also gave it to Feliciano's brother, Domingo. 3. There are other reviews backing it up, here is one from a Belgian woman saying the same thing: www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUserReviews-g298424-d3755701-r840823783-Feliciano_Tours-Boquete_Chiriqui_Province.html I also include the book "Ne t'en fais pas, nous sommes amis..." by Nina von Rönne, which details her experience living next to Feliciano in 2015 and his sleazy, angry behaviour: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/summaries-and-analysis-of-some-books.html Feliciano got banned from a hotel for harassing women: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5-of-7-cinco-muertos-five-dead/id1650171879?i=1000586925449
For this case, they haven't been able to id any 3rd party and many have already claimed that this was a crime case; for the JonBenet case, they haven't been able to id any intruder yet already claimed the Ramseys had nothing to do with her death. What a crazy world!
Look, if a gang had killed them they simply would have buried them deep, that is what you do to hid bodie and to hide a crime, that would be the end of the matter, not leave behind clothes, phones expensive camera, bodies, and all the evidence that could contain (DNA, fingerprints etc). The 911 calls tell the story that they got lost, got weak, confused and probably had a accident, the unusual call patterns was because mostly the phones showed totally no coverage, so no point wasting valuable battery, and the 911 calls they did (4 some days) make was when the phones showed some coverage, phones do that where the coverage is poor, show some coverage but are unable to connect, has happened to me. People with those theory's of murder are more about themselves that the truth, for the locals warned them against that trip without a guide for a good reason, and that's why today people are warned against that trip without a guide! Simple misadventure, happens often in those kind of dangerous territories with people without the right or no experience!
No, no, no, there were only ever two narratives and that is lost in jungle, or foul play. The original search found nothing and yet 10 weeks later plenty of evidence turned up. The evidence was planted to make people think they were lost. Most of the evidence was missing anyways.
Let me explain something to you. Gangs are known to operate in the area, they operate in the dense jungle especially, why? they do not want attention brought on themselves, they do not want to be seen doing what they do. So 2 tourists from a first world country go missing in a country heavily reliant on tourism dollars. It’s then followed by world wide media attention and a dispatch of a dozen Dutch personnel including detectives , dogs & search and rescue persons. In addition to a reward of 30k for information on the whereabouts of the girls, good incentive for anyone to start poking around the jungle looking for clues or to come clean with information. Do gangs want their jungle searched so a dog can smell a shallow grave or drug cache be stumbled upon? or do they want the bodies to be “found” in a way that points to accidental death which ends the search, reward and investigation altogether? Do Panamanian politicians want tourism dollars to stop because two girls went there and mysteriously disappeared never to be found again? Or do they want this to be a story of misadventure, they succumbed to the elements and their remains were later recovered because they got lost and didn’t have a guide. Misdirecting the search and investigation sure does sound like a better option for the perpetrators who have a lot more to lose the longer it goes on. So you can be willfully ignorant anywhere. Don’t be it here.
They would have been targeted as soon as they walked into town . Once they hiked into the jungle they were in full jeopardy . Why did the Dog leave them ? The jungle does not bleach bones.
Video doesn't mention the hiking boot found with the clean cut leg still inside. And whoever suggested "ghosts" by looking at the orbs in the photos...please, that has to be rain or dust particles.
Unsure if there was evidence of the foot being actually cut, but it happens often with bodies dumped at the sea that their feet become unattached and the tight shoes help preserve the foot in relatively good conditions. So the foot wasn't necessarily separated from the rest of the leg while they were still alive
And that there is missing security camera footage from a store and that the “gang” was a few friends they had met and that there were witnesses that saw them return from their hike ruclips.net/video/du1y_jRiiGU/видео.html
I don’t believe their death was accidental, that little TripAdvisor guide they knew had something to do with it. I do believe their organs were harvested and bones discarded after the fact. The pictures are sketchy, the missing pic is strange. I wish an actual answer to this case existed but it’s all theory’s and questions. I hope they had some peace in their last moments
The fact that she took a pic of Kris after she had probably died already makes me think accident . But the way the bones were scattered so far , and kris’ bones were bleached makes me think foul play . Idk such a weird case
I'm always amazed at how many young women go into counties and places that are very heavily not safe to travel by themselves. While I don't really know if I believe gang or anyone else was involved or if they just kept getting deeper and deeper into trouble by not staying in one spot while waiting for help, it is strange that the only person that could have possibly known where they were was a tour guide. As someone who's father was a probation officer, self defense instructor and karate instructor for over 20 years I just can't even with the amount of young women who think they are invincible and trek out into areas that are dangerous. Homework, ladies, homework. And if you think the area might even kind of be dangerous, you and a friend together is not enough to stave off the danger that lurks in areas unknown. Adventure is one thing but safety is of the utmost. Stop ignoring the warnings.
Because they don't realize how dangerous these countries are, they think people who say this are just racist or "ignorant" people (the irony). They also probably don't realize how fair they are treated in their home country probably thinking women are oppressed in their comfy country. It's like the dumbass couple that though it's be safe to bike across Iraq and Afghanistan ......they we're discovered beheaded. It's just ignorant SJWs getting culled from the flock
They were murdered by a guide named feliciano. Multiple woman cam forward saying he was extremely inappropriate and scary. It isn’t a coincidence he was the last person who saw them. They turned downed his services and stalked and killed them
@@blackbartthepoet3820 has there been an official conviction, I remember reading about the guide before but they never did anything because lack of evidence.
You are using common sense, which is a good thing. Most women don't. The key is you had a father to teach you these things, it is surprising how many disappeared girls were only raised by a single mother. (which I don't know if that is the case here)
It's obvious to me whoever was using camera and phone wasn't the girls because they would have tried writing a SMS or message to friends and family, if trapped in a bad situation. Even if they did not document their bad situation with the camera , by recording a statement to let people know what happened for example(which would seem like something you do) , there would be more phone records of them trying to reach the outside world other than calling 112. I would guess their killer(s) took the phones and camera, asked for the codes, and called 112 themselves and took the pictures to make it seem like they got lost. The picture of the head is done in a way that it could have been taken by one of the girls, but i very much doubt that it was.
3:50 The narrator refers to the school in Panama that wanted them to know fluent Spanish, and shows this picture of a classroom more than likely in Poland. LMAO! The white tailed eagle on the wall is a national symbol of Poland (which seems to be minus it's crown- which could be indicative of the Communist era), the writing on the chalkboard is in Polish, and the book sticking out of the box says something about drawings on it. WTF? This is what you get when you use stock footage!
Two attractive white females. Happens all over the world. Especially to tourists. Sad and scary. Our govt is failing us by not letting people know this is happening way to often
My mom usually likes to go to Buquete, which is many hours away from where she lives. I guess because of the weather being cooler and the deep mountain scenery being so beautiful. But she would never, ever, wander into the deep woods though for any type of hiking. To think the authorities will move a finger without you paying them is a joke. My condolences to both of their family, this is extremely sad. We need to realize, being in another country without a proper guide, i.e Panama, that far into the jungle is a risk. Even with a guide, you’re gambling with your life. The drowning of the person who took the girls pictures, says to me that foul play is all over this. Gangs back home now, are just like cartels. They don’t 🤬around. It’s scary and they have no mercy for anything other than their wrong doings. This is sad, I pray their parents can find answers and that the idiots that did this pay a heavy price.
This. Most police are lazy af. Even in the US, they basically rely on volunteers to actually hike and look for remains, while they sit in their cars eating. If it wasn't for narcs, the US police wouldn't catch anybody, ever. And the third world police are WAY worse.
Seems possible they were attacked by a small number of people quite soon after starting out, fled, got lost. One was eventually caught, the other was carrying the bag managed to escape and spent the next few days hiding and lost, trying to call out. She was eventually found but her captors returned the bag where it would be found to divert attention from themselves It must’ve been terrifying for them
that what i think, and mentioned that theory a few times? the friend with the backpack, with the phones and camera in it , tryed to use her friend's phone. but did not no the password, poor girl's god bless them.
@@thedude9014everyone says they were smart girls. And probably would’ve known to stay on the trail. What other conclusion can you draw. They were chased, and then found later by who it was. Suggested by, The planted evidence. And the Bleach the bones. If that backpack falls down a ravine, it’s not going to be dry. Somebody planted that there. That old guy probably had something to do with it. Since he took everyone straight to where the bones were. Probably the tour guide, and the taxi driver. Not only that but they had hike trails before. so they know what not to do right
The fact they didn't take any pictures after #508 that day, when they were taking a complete record of their route prior to then tells us that something happened shortly after. If they went beyond the point in #508 they were likely taken or probably chased/cornered in that direction. Any new portion or terrain/scenery Lisanne too a picture of it. By the way, non of the pictures taken that day shows them off the trail. They kept to it and did not stray from it. Its hours walking from #508 to the first monkey bridge, yet not single picture between #508 and the monkey bridge were taken, despite passing some great scenery. The backpack did not show signs of being in a serious accident, particularly the flimsy cheap sunglasses. No sign of blood on or in it either. Surely if they had a major accident this would likely have involved bleeding. Youd think they'd be rummaging in the bag to use the bras as a bandage or strap or padding, yet they didn't.
In the warnings about that particular trail, no concrete information was given about just what to “watch out for” Just general warnings that people should not hike without a guide, etc. I bet the locals know the real reason…but don’t want tourism negatively impacted. Also, Margarita, having lost her son to the same people, is most likely telling the truth. I hope she can be kept safe…😔
In my experience, locals are honest and will tell people about dangers and anything else. Lots of foreigners dont want to listen to them and will get into trouble. These 2 women make me cringe. So dopey and careless. My God. I wonder what their parents thought...running around Panama would be safe?
It is the same warning you get when you go to any 2nd world or third world country. Always go with a guide or more people preferably a strong man. I think they were feminist extremist and got mouthy with a local or drug cartel
Actually that should apply to ANY hiking trail whether here or around the world. I’ve ran into some weird folks hiking trails right here in the good ol USA.
@@RichWeigel I live in Barcelona here hiking is very safe no crimes happen at all but I tell u the truth as female I will never hike in my life am to scared of jungle as I was raped back in my country morocco being near woods can be dangerous for females
Kris' parents are not interested in any answers. They have completely shut themselves off against all information, they don't want to have anything to do with the press, or people trying to figure out what happened.
Great and fair recap. Outstanding last few minutes with recent updates. Gang involvement was new news to me.
I know I've heard of possible gang involvement here and there over the years. Stumbled upon something? Or just because? Strange though when ppl just vanish with their personal effects left behind...
Why is this pinned lol
I really doubt, "Gang involvement". I am guessing they thought they could do what they wanted to do and it didn't work out for them. Their house guess warned them but the city slicker feminist extremist attitude took over to their demise
@@nevereverlistens yes , a rare example of when women face accountability for their actions .
@@allseeingotto2912 The internet, including this video loves the ''gang involvement'' and any murderer-theory. Its so stupid.. but ok - i know that since ''911 was an inside job'' .. internet-people are just so in love with spectacular theories .. Because it would be to boring to believe: they only get lost in jungle, and then died of starvation. Because this and that ..''how do you explain the bleached bones, the mint backbag'' , etc ... i know all those crap questions, and there are easy explainations for it. But its soo much more thrilling for people to believe in murderer-theories. Thats why whole channels on youtube make a living out of murderer-stories.
Two young, beautiful women traveling alone to a poor crime ridden area (country) is a horrible idea... Very sad story
They died of natural causes.
I don't understand how people can be so naive.....it would be dangerous for 2 guys even....and how much more for women.....are people doing their due diligence about these places they visit?
Westerners only know about yellow fever, but the rest of the world has “white fever”, which is 10 million times more common than yellow fever in the west. Most Westerners will know nothing about this until 2024
😅😂
@@Albertanator Yes, but there must've been some element of trust. These girls were very bright and meticulous, self-aware and relatively healthy tho Lisanne had a slight cold it is said.
So someone could've betrayed their trust...charming young men with bad intentions? Who reassured them they knew the territory and could protect them ? Naive possibly, but charmers can be very clever and manipulative , especially locals who are comfortable in their environment, using it for their own purposes? Heartbreaking mystery. 🌷🌿🌷
@@anjou6497 Very heartbreaking to be sure.
the thing that always got me is that they never recorded a goodbye message. in a lot of cases of people missing for quite some time with recording devices they record something. but these girls didnt do that. that leads me to believe they werent able to. i deffinetly think this was foul play
I just wrote this as a reply to another comment. This is a huge point to me for thinking there was foul play. I would think at least one of them would have recorded or even written it in a text so if the worst happened and they weren’t found there would be something to their families. Just this one point by itself makes me think foul play and then when you add in all the other things it’s so suspicious that something bad happened.
@@alloralou4722 i know right. In simulatie situations People always document something. Some sort of a goodbye message and this didnt happen suddenly since they did try to call 911. They should have time to record something even if was Just 1 of the girls Who recorded something its so weird to me.
@@demsterwoldelf my thinking too. Being lost for as many days there would have been a point, especially because they would have been getting weaker and weaker, that they would have realized this is it, we aren’t going to make it. If it were to happen to me I hope I would think to record or type a message to my family.
This is one of the main reasons why I lean towards foul play in this case. Just too many things don't add up for it to be any other explanation. Also, the fact that the backpack was moved and found in good condition despite it not being found for quite a while.
When you get lost, you don't immediately think "this is the end," and act accordingly with that. If they knew they were lost, and starving to death or injured, then yea that would make sense to leave a note or make a recording. But the one theory is they tried to cross a bridge, and it broke or they fell. Death can sneak up on you.
I've hiked the Pianista Trail last year. Foul play a 100%
Why?
You can't get lost there, like everyone who says the girls got lost, please do the trail and show me how you get lost there. There is cattle fences almost all the time next to you in that "jungle" and a river next to you that runs into town. I'm not a good hiker and my sense of direction is pretty bad, but if you dropped me there blindfolded I'd find my way back.
Yes, it's a bit muddy but not too bad. At the beginning the offline map is about 50 meters off so occasionally you follow a wrong path but realize quickly you are on private property or a cattle fence blocks the way and you turn around.
Everyone hikes in shorts and shirt btw because it's very warm and humid and the trail is easily accessible. The trail takes about 3 hours round trip tops and 70% is covered with cow shit. So yes green jungle vegetation left and right but remote? Dense? Hostile? No. You of course don't need a guide for finding your way. But people use guides for bird watching and finding monkey's and sloths.
Anyway....
I have been traveling around the world over several months for the last 10 years. Alone and now with my boyfriend. So I think I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about. It's completely different how you as a woman are perceived when alone or with other girls compared as to when traveling with a male companion. I have many stories to tell from my travels in the means of danger and safety and girls like Kris and Lisanne were aware and not stupid. So I'm sure they would not venture off the trail without good reason and they surely would want to avoid the extra "attention" you get as a female. I'm super careful myself, always. And I think it's common knowledge, not everywhere in the world a human life is valued the same. We even had a local here straight out telling us: "It's easy to get away with murder in Panama. Nobody cares enough." And she shrugged it off casually while talking about the loose laws in general and how in completely other regards (keeping wild animals as pets) benefited her goals in this country. It was a surreal conversation.
Boquete itself is pretty safe I'd say. Great town. Most of the trails (for example "the lost waterfalls" or "pipeline trail") around town are on private property, so you pay to do it and register. You only meet other travelers there. Pianista is different. It's a trail also used by locals because there is farmland around it and people live there. And the trail technically goes further all the way to the bocas along villages. You can meet anyone there if you are walking long enough and far enough but you don't by mistake go missing. It's simply not that wild out there. So when I at the end of our hike asked my boyfriend: " So what do you say, did these girls get lost?" He just snorted. And I agree. I think they met someone they shouldn't have.
Tks for your comment, it paints a clearer picture.
first sensible comment on this thread. getting 'lost' on that trail is impossible, that theory is an absolute joke.
👍
There might have been developments on the trail since. Just a thought.
That's what happens when people have non-existent knowledge in geography, thinking that this fairly small Panama lies in the middle of the vast Amazon rainforest or smth.
Out of all the tales on RUclips whether nonfiction crime or even supernatural, 411 missing etc, this story has always given me deep and dark vibes. Sad. Prayers to their families and RIP.
Strange cause I'm the first to jump to a paranormal conclusion and this one strikes me as mundane just two girls who got lost no foul play nothing strange
all those photos after days of nothing... the backpacks that reappeared.... the many many calls tried..... horrible dark - agree it's v sad and creepy
@@mianrowanthat’s weird because I I don’t believe this is paranormal or just two girls who got lost. This reeks of potential foul play
i turned into a detective because of this case.. temporarily XD
These girls were so naive and careless.
It’s always been a red flag to me that someone tried to access one of the girls phone and got the password wrong several times. The authorities just assumed it was the friend and not a suspect/stranger trying to repeatedly access the phone
do you no your friend's password for their phones , that is the only reason? she was trying to open her friends phone, her friend was abducted or dead. poor girls
do you no your friends' passwords for their phone;s that is the only reason she was trying to open her friend's phone, her friend was abducted or dead? why would a stranger want to access the phone? poor girls
maybe was one of them trying to unlock the phone of the other, or if they were lost, with no water, food, mental state of person in such situation can go down, like being dezorientated, tired, cant think straight, can start to halucinate, but in such places wich are so isolated and being foreginer is usualy recipe for dissaster. for young europeans is normal to go travel across europe, but many thik that any place on earth is like home or majority of europe, they cant imagine danger, they are too naive. in my country moluntain rescue service every year in summers have to rescue bunch of young west european people, who come for summer, decide t go on a hike to a mountain velebit. so instead to ask locals or to follow the signs, they just take off on their own path thinking it is small easy mountain. there are wolves, bears and other animals, temperature during day in summer are high, it is very hot, so majority goes in flip flops and light summer clothes. they get lost, night comes, temperature can go under 0, so imagne being in flip lops and short summer clothes on below zero temperatures.. one french grup few years ago was rescued, they were cold, dehidrated coz they took no water, had no flashlighs, only phones( and tere is no signal at some points), when resuced they said how on map it seemed so short way to come from one side of moiuntain to another town on the other side of mountain. the mountain is 145km long in str8 line, without actual obsitacels on terrain wich you need to go around, or climb up, than go down.
i think those girls or had fatal accident, or stumbeld onto some animal and become prey or maybe went deep into jungel and stumbel upon drug camp or something simmilar and that was their end..
Probably was the police or they knew who it was..
I think the same thing! I know that if I were in a situation like this it's best to share my phone access with my friend in case one phone dies and we need to access the other. Unless of course, there was a third party involved trying to gain access.
This story still creeps me out to this day. The photos flash in my mind sometimes.
omg same
One of the strangest cases I have ever heard. The fact videos Re still being made and stills being viewed by thousands prooves how alive this case still is within people's minds. I know it is still very much alive in my mind.
There's an update: ruclips.net/video/YtPpkLYezCI/видео.html
Also, I’m sure the Panamanian authorities know more than they’re saying, they just don’t want to make Panama look unsafe for tourists
Very true, hiding such criminal behavior is what countries tend to do
@@arthurbrumagem3844 It's a lot cheaper to do that, than it is to actually get the job done
Countries always put tourism first. There's been so many times evidence has been manipulated, witnesses have been silenced or "missing" and cases shelved. There's corruption from the top to the bottom and those in power will use it at will.
I swear I Thought 100% the same as you.
def agree with this being a strong possibility.. thats real bad in many ways, to have to pretty young girls, who are also there with some social help groups. so its a bad look for tourists as well as foriegn Aid groups. Also these countries usually have the criminals, gangs, police and locals, all kinda in bed with eachother. And its always about money too. youd be surprised how much monetary Aid flows to these countries and departments. And the crime is insane in many regions, with no real policing, like in western Nations
Look at the photos of these girls! Trusting and naive. Innocent joy on their faces. Coming from a small Dutch village. No idea how rotten and evil people can be. Heartbreaking. RIP girls.
Perfect preys for bad people are those who believe that unicorns and rainbows are everywhere. Like these women.
You don't know what happened. They more than likely got lost and injured.
Their last moments must have been terrifying
you mean how evil Men can be!!!
Small correction; Amersfoort is actually a city* :)
On every true crime video, it seems there's someone who comments how out of the many, many true crime cases they've watched, THAT one is the that sticks with them the most. This is that case for me--well, tied with the whole Turtle Island Thailand gang-corruption-coverup murders haha.
Any theory on this case (or derivative) get be picked apart so it's frustrating. Some things start to make sense in your mind, it's all clicking together, and then you go "but wait, what about the _____ " So yeah the only thing i'm certain of is that i'm not certain. I do notice however, that people who support the theory that they just got lost (whether coupled with an animal attack, a fall of a cliff, effects of dehydration etc.) don't seem able or willing to refute arguments for the (a) foul play theory.
Even to believe they were kidnapped by a gang would open up so many more questions that have left people scratching their heads. But I tend to lean towards some form of the foul play theory, and here why.
Points that contradict the theory that they just got lost:
1) the backpack -- it was found 70 days after the girls' disappearance, beside a river bank 15 km away from the pianista trail. The lady who found it said she was at the same spot the day before but didn't see any backpack there. The backpack was NOT wet -- it was in pristine condition and the items inside were dry and appeared untouched. The phones and digital camera were in there, so it becomes difficult to see how the girls could've been the ones taking the pictures and calling emergency services in the jungle for 11 days, and yet the backpack doesn't get wet or dirty, and somehow makes a long journey on its own without getting wet.
2) Lisanne's severed left foot was found in her hiking boot, and the cut was clean -- This disproves any animal attack theory and shows a human being cut off her foot. Unless Pokemon are real and a Scyther jumped out and cut her foot off, then it was a human. It can't be argued that an animal could have done that, plus the boot was clean and still tied to her foot, with no sign of scratches or claw marks
Honestly, I don't see how anyone can believe they just got lost given the above 2 points. Ok let's tack on some more for goal differential :P
3) Pictures -- I'm hoping people have watched/read other things about this case, to gather more details. The daytime pictures and nighttime pictures tell completely different (albeit incomplete) stories.
Timeline: they start their hike on April 1st. Yikes, I didn't even notice that was April Fool's, ugh.
-> daytime pictures - The girls are smiling. These are the ones at the foot of the trail, along it and leading up to them reaching the peak where I wish they had been able to turn back. In the strange pictures of Kris beside the stream of water and crouched by the bushes, she's not smiling at all and some believe at this point they were either kidnapped or had run into another group and knew they were dangerous.
These initial pictures were taken before 1:30-2:00pm, so that refutes the taxi driver saying he dropped them off at that time. Nope, he might've just misremembered but this notion that they started their hike at 2pm is simply false. MORE on that taxi driver in a bit ....
-> nighttime pictures - After 2pm on April 1st, no one used the camera for 7 days. It just doesn't make sense, if they were alone and simply lost, to not have a SINGLE picture of them, or anything in the daytime for that matter. But then on April 8th, someone took more than 90 photos in less than 3 hours -- those hours were between 1am-4am. This is where the "they just got lost" camp suggests that these photos were meant to light up the area so they could see their surroundings, perhaps signal an airplane or search party, or perhaps scare off an animal they (or rather just she, by this point) might have heard. I have to admit, whyy would kidnappers be out at 1-4am taking pictures though? Best chance to not be seen as they make it look like the girls took the pictures in the jungle? Oh, I dunno. But then again, WHY was there 0 camera activity for 7 days?
Then there's the deleted photo and this one's a mammoth. Keep in mind that pictures were taken on a digital camera, not their phones. A computer must be used to fully erase a photo, and the Canon company itself confirmed this. It makes a strong argument that the girls managed to get a picture of something or someone incriminating, and whoever kidnapped them (* cough Feliciano Gonzales) had to have deleted the picture.
4) Phones -- alright so on the first day, April 1st, the first emergency call to 112 was placed just after 4:30pm. Then a call was placed to 911 but didn't get through. Then phones turned off for 14 hours. Again, why? If they were lost and had their phones, how do they both go 14 hours without having their phone on?
In total, they made about 80 calls. On day 5 (April 5th) LIsanne's phone died. Kris's phone stayed on until day 11 but between April 7th-10th Kris's phone was off/had no activity. It was turned on again, for the last time, at 10:51am on April 11th. It was turned off exactly an hour later at 11:51am, and this was the end of any phone activity.
On April 6th, there were several attempts to enter an incorrect code. There were dozens of attempts up until April 11th. The girls obviously would have exchanged pass codes so it's very unlikely that Lisanne would've been locked out of Kris's phone. Plus, they didn't need a pass code to make an emergency call so investigators concluded it was unlikely to have been Lisanne trying to enter the code. The girls hadn't called home or the place they were staying, or anything other than emergency services in those 11 days so that seemed a bit strange. Why "dozens" of attempts to enter a phone, unless it was kidnappers looking for photos or something before they plant the phones in the backpack and leave them by the river.
5) Tour guide / gang members
Oh I gotta wrap this up. No one's reading anyway but I can't sleep so let's write until the eyes get heavy haha. Okay but yeah, let's go over some of these characters.
Feliciano Gonzales - the tour guide
Internet sleuths like me believe he's our guy. He basically IS a red flag, everything that he does. The girls were supposed to meet with Feliciano but they didn't. So after the girls went missing, he went over to the place they were staying and was in the girls' room for 30 minutes. There wasn't a door key in the backpack that was found, which doesn't make sense. Then of course it's Feliciano who spotted the boot with Lisanne's severed foot in it, and other bones. 33 bones were discovered, one pair of jean shorts, and one shoe from each of the girls. Then there was a rolled up ball of human skin. Then you look at Feliciano's tripadvisor reviews online and the one where he threatens a woman with a machete sticks out. Machete, clean cut above the ankle, hmm. OH, and then the suspicious deaths. Over 10 people connected to the case have died, including 4 member of the Los gang. The one gang member who survived? Henri Elizas Gonzales, Feliciano's son. Alright.
Taxi driver -- named Leonardo Gonzales -- drove the girls to la pianista, told police he saw a pickup truck near where he dropped the girls off. He was found dead in a river, 7 months after the girls' disappearance.
Gang member 1 - Osman Velezuales (23 years old) - died April 4th (3 days after the girls' disappearance).
2 - Juan Rivera Miranda (24)
3 - Jorge Murgas (23)
4 - Adonis Henriberto (23)
One was drowned in a shallow pool, one hit and run, and I forget the other. I'm tired, still need to look up another supposed suspect named Plineo Montenegro.
But yeah, again no one will have read this but forgive the long rant, anyway. This case just has so many strange elements to it. I mean, the girls actually had a compass, a solar power bank, and a knife in their room. They obviously would've taken these if they planned to go on a long hike, which further makes me believe they were intercepted at some point on the trail.
It just seems obvious that there was foul play involved. Foul play's a euphemism for what Lisanne and Kris went through, and I can't see any way they just got lost. Again they didn't pack much, they didn't take any daytime photos after the first 2 hours of their hike, the condition of the bone fragments, the knowledge of gang/police/government corruption in Panama, all of it. If they were lost, wouldn't they have tried to mark where they've been? It's dense jungle but even little pieces of clothing tied to a tree could be seen by people searching. What about trying to make SOS signs out of rocks or sticks?> Or at least make piles of random sticks and brush so you'll know you've been there before, and people searching can tell a human made those piles.
I dunno, it just seems a bit disrespectful to the girls and their lives to believe they were foolish and got lost. Just think, if Lisanne or Kris was your daughter, would you be able to look at this case and accept that the girls must've just got lost? Evidence for them being lost pales in comparison to them being kidnapped, does it not?
Then again, I could be wrong :)
Damn that was a fantastic write up! So much info that the video did not include. Foul play seems almost certain to me. So wasn't Feliciano Gonzales and his son interrogated and what are they doing today? And what about all the other disappearings?
thank you
Great job 👏🏻
Yes u are right but we can't do anything except praying for those girls souls and their families. I wish one day justice would served to them. Thank you for such deep details and your write up. May God bless u.
ok,but why be so cringe about it
I wish Netflix would do a crime doc on this case. It would make a fascinating story even more well known and give it maximum exposure, though it may be too late for anything further to come out.
So do I
This case has already been covered extensively and according to everything I’ve seen, there are just not enough leads and nothing viable enough to make any accurate assumptions. Other than the most obvious, got lost or were kidnapped and murdered theory. I dunno, this is a case I’ve always wanted to know the answer too.
They will do eventually...they just gotta document everything else first.
@@Industrialist2015ofUk ha ha - they're getting there!
me too or even unsolved mysteries episode...
This case still haunts me.
Not only was the backpack found far from where they were last seen, but it was completely on the other side of the watershed that runs between Chiriqui province and Bocas del Torro Province.
The girls would have had to have hiked up one of three river valleys, the Pianista River valley, the Paloma River valley or perhaps the Palo Alto river valley. These are the most logical ways for them to have hiked, as the trail from where they left follows the el Pianista for a short while. Whichever way they went they would have had to climb up to about 1800m at least if not 2000m to cross the watershed and enter the other drainage.
The Culebra river is NOT JUST 15 km from where the women were last seen!
It is over 35 km away AS THE CROW FLIES!!!
Also, this guy means the Chianguinola RIVER not the Chianguinola PROVINCE! Chianguinola Province is all the way over on the EAST COAST! Chianguinola Province is over 70km from where the girls were.
In order to get to the Culebra River the girls would have had to hike up El Pianista, climb 1800-2000m cross the watershed and enter Bocas del Torro Province. From there if they went downhill they would have entered into the Chianguinola river drainage first. Most likely around the middle fork of the Chianguinola river. From there they would have had to hike down the Chianguinola river. The Culebre river empties into the Chianguinola river near Punta Blanca and La Mina where the two rivers form a lake. That is an insane distance from where the girls were last seen. It is at least 35 if not 40 km!!!!
Also, where the bags were found was UPRIVER on the Culebre, so the girls would have had to go up the Pianista river, cross the watershed at 1800m to 2000m of elevation, go down into the Chianguinola river drainage. They would then have had to follow this river for like 40 km and finally they would have had to GO UP THE CULEBRA RIVER in order to get to the small village near where the packs were found. There were hundreds of fingerprints on their backpacks and belongings.
Accident theory:
On one hand, it is very easy for someone to slip, have a fall and hurt themselves, but there were two of them. The girls were obviously not planning on hiking, but they still could have survived a very long time without food there, and being in a river drainage, they would have had plenty of access to water. The temperatures in that area in April are on average between 25°C and 15°C. Higher up they temperatures would have been a little cooler. The girls certainly would not have died of the heat up there in April.
Ironically, it would have been quite possible for them to get hypothermia at night especially if they were wet. It is almost always wet in that area. Did they have anything with them to make a fire with? I do not know what the girls' hiking or orienteering skills were like, or if they really knew where they were going, when they set out. It does not seem like they planned to hike for days. It looks more like the planned to go the 750 or so meters up the La Pianista trail to the summit, make some photos and return.
Did they get turned around and go into the Chianguinola river drainage thinking it was the Pianista river? That is possible, but they would have certainly realized that at some point. If not by dark om the first day, then certainly by noon the next day. I find it highly unlikely that they would travel 40 km down the Chianguinola river, passing the rather large Rio Playita entering the Chianguinola from the left (West) and even passing the river Estrelita also entering from the left or West only to turn up the Culebre after what would have taken them at least 2-5 days and over 40km of hiking. It just does not make sense. Unless they did not know what they were doing got lost and panicked? If they had any sense at all and had been camping or hiking at all before then I just do not see this happening.
As far as I can recall the weather was nice for a few days and then it did rain. Perhaps they got turned around and were lost headed down the Chianguinola thinking it was the Pianista for awhile and then got caught in a flash flood? Their bones from what I understand, were found strewn all over. Most of them were in the riverbed, but some where higher up. If I recall correctly the bones were found years after the girls disappeared. One was a boot with the girl's foot still in it, but there was no signs of severing or broken bones and the investigators believe that the limb became separated after severe decomposition. Drowning would explain why most of the bones were found in the river drainage. The bones found higher up on the banks could have been carried there by scavenging animals.
Apart from that, there are venomous snakes and jaguars, but those scenarios are pretty unlikely. I suppose it could have been possible for one of them to have gotten hurt and then have been predated by jaguars, but this theory is very implausible. The most likely scenario here is that one of the girls got hurt and the other girl went for help and got lost or hurt herself.
Foul Play:
Foul play seems to be the most likely theory to me. Their packs were found 40 km away from La Pianista as the crow flies that is up one river over a continental divide of 2000m, then 35-40 km down another river and then up another river for like another 2-3 km. It seems unlikely that a gang would take them to the city and go clubbing with them only to come back out into the jungle and dispose of the bodies in such a remote area. There is no vehicle access out there. No. More likely they ran into someone or went with someone. Someone, whom they knew. Maybe someone, who was going to "show them the area". He got them out there alone and he murdered them. It could have been up to several people. If they partied perhaps they wanted to party in the jungle. This seems far more plausible to me.
As much as I know how easy it is for people to die of exposure. I cannot imagine that it what happened to them. That area is remote, but it is not like no one walks along those trails. There are huts, sheds, remote homesteads along the Rio Chianguinola on both sides. A few of them are probably visible from the river. If the houses had any kind of lighting, they would have been very visible at night.
Thank you for this.
@@joeycee2585 Sure. I became obsessed with this case. In the end I just did not have enough information to be able to determine what really happened to them. It is so sad.
@@manfredconnor3194 I know what you mean. It's a haunting case.
As a woman I doubt they willingly went with a strange man even if they knew him after meeting him there or several men at that. They were taken against their will and murdered.😥
@@manfredconnor3194 do u live down there?
Sad story for sure. It is a true mystery, I read that they did have an appointment with a guide but decided to go for a brief walk. I am from Panama and through the years the situation with crime, drugs and gangs has become a true nightmare with abductions and all sorts of crimes, the only predatorial animal in these areas would be jaguar but they never seek out any kind of contact with humans as tigers or other big cats, they walk the other way and you'd be blessed to have a peek at one scurrying by. I would not doubt that these girls ended up crossing paths with people capable of something so horrible. Under the cover of the jungle and feared by locals so many crimes can be done. May God keep these beautiful girls in his memory and bring justice to any one involved with their deaths.,
No, not a mystery, they were stupid, they were warned, they didn't heed the warning
My guess is they were mouthy to some drug cartels. Because they thought they could be, not realizing what was out there. So the cartels quartered them
The guide knows more than he said and he was actually rummaging around in their apartment before the police were informed.
@@nevereverlistens there's no need for that level of disrespect. Give it a rest.
@@beccymalloy ? How many lives will I save by telling the truth. How many lives will you destroy by hiding the truth?
I might be able to accept the accident in nature theory if it were just one woman. But two adults don’t drown at once and two adults don’t simultaneously get bit by a snake. I think they were killed, unfortunately. This is the problem with travel to these beautiful, but remote, areas. You just have to hope you don’t run afoul of some bad actors.
2 adults down at once all the time, one gets in trouble, the other attempts a rescue, the drowning one in full panic clings to and drowns the other. At the beach my mom, her best friend, her best friend daughter and a girl my sister dragged along went out deep and my mom turned around and saw the girl was drowning and was on top of her best friends daughter shoving her under trying to keep herself up so my Mom and her bf swam over and the girl lunged for my mom and my mom screamed, "NO" in her face and shoved a floatation device at her cause she was about to start climbing on top of my mom in her panic. Apparently she couldn't swim (I say girl but she was in her 30s) and didn't think to mention it to anyone and followed them out over her head w only a pool noodle that got away from her. If my mom and her bf hadn't been out there she'd have 100% drown the other girl before anyone could've reached them.
@@unchargedpickles6372 Yeah. It happened in the small town I grew up in, a bunch of young people swimming at a lake, one got in trouble, his brother dove in to help, they both drowned. Their sister was in my class, the whole town was devastated, they were 18 and 21, both nice, popular kids. It’s extremely possible, sadly.
@@unchargedpickles6372 …drowning incidents you describe certainly happen. With that said, the discovery of some of their remains excludes this from consideration. If one suddenly lost her footing and fell..perhaps off a cliff…I doubt the other one would abandon all caution and allow herself to fall down there as well. Exposure is unlikely due to abundance of water and mild temperatures.. Sadly, I think that two fair-haired attractive girls arriving in this area by themselves would have been noticed by many many people. They would have been easy to follow by those that grew up on these mountains and unfortunately their deaths at the hands of others is not easy to dismiss.
@@unchargedpickles6372 True me and a friend one time saved my friend's brother from drowning in one of those wild water courses in a swimming pool. Don't know the right word in English but basically it's a course where there is a current pushing you a certain path and it goes in laps so to speak. I stood by the stairs which is the only way out and my friend jumped in to get him above water and when they came round I grabbed my friend his hand who was holding his brother at the same time and was able to pull them to the stairs. If you would save someone just by yourself without someone pulling you back it would be likely the person in distress would pull you down. Happens often enough so this might have happened here too.
It may not have been like that though. Two don't necessarily have to drown or get bitten by a snake at the same time. Chances are, they got lost, one had an accident and died first, and the other perished afterwards. Or they both got lost and died from exposure, lack of food and water etc.
I think nobody ever mentioned the fact that Kris' hair looks very clean in that final photo of the back of her head. If the photo was taken more than a week after they went missing, there is no way that her hair would have been THAT clean. Something is not right.
Чёрная трансплантология или изнасилование и убийство
Я склоняюсь к 1 варианту
Что бы узнать правду нужно не мало денег
Thats True!! Panamá has humid weather so after few hours hiking in the jungle your hair is anything but clean.
Yes her hair would have looked oily...
Будучи возле ручья, можно помыть волосы.
no shit sherlock
Apparently Kris and Lisanne arrived at the stream location 508 at about 1:30 pm AND the first emergency call 112 was made at about 4:30 pm. There were 3 hours in between.
How can we say without any doubt that these girls were STILL there ?
My hypothesis is that they have already turned back at 508 ( last daytime photo location) and spent approximately 2 hours walking back to the trail head. Then they were picked up by a red truck ( no taxi available) and drove in the direction of the Caldera. 2+1=3 hours.
These Dutch girls were either abducted or murdered inside a village house in the area. No photoshopping has been done but the sequence has been changed.
My theory : foul play by the gang.
actually I watched a very in depth video on this case by another youtuber (cant remember who), who had shown that there are actually doubts on any of the timings listed for that first day as there were "witnesses" who saw the girls allegedly at a certain time, the time the taxi driver allegedly dropped them off is a completely different time to that and the time on the devices etc are all completely different times to both of these too - I think there was also a mention about the camera time being off too (pre set time etc). so there are seemingly also doubts and no 100% on the times either.
however I have seen theories too (like you said) that they possibly got a bit into the trail, headed back, couldn't find their way back or a taxi properly and it was a sort of hitchhiking gone wrong scenario - which I guess could add up to foul play and why the girls couldnt be found when rescue teams went in for them.
I’ve immersed myself in this case. Every time I think of a theory, I realize that some component of it is disproven by another piece of evidence. This is the most baffling mystery.
it was the guide
Not at all, there are no real disproves that they were kidnapped/murdered and this theory makes sense. Weird behaviour of government and their guide just tells it all
I watched a documentary that said they went to the summit and then they got down again (one girl carries the bag uphill, the other one downhill, as seen in the pics.). Some guys were waiting for them downhill nd then all of them went to some hot springs or sth like that. There's even pics of the girls with the local guys at that place. What happened next is they were raped and beaten and locked up in a cabin. Some of the guys are come from local powerful families. 2 or 3 of them "died in accidents" probably bcs they wanted to tell the truth. One of them told all of this to his girlfriend, who then run away in another country and talked to the guy who made the documentary. Everything he said made a lot of sense and logic. İt's a two part doc., Almost 2hrs long in total if I remember right, so I don't know why someone would bother so much and mde up so many things. He even said there'll be a third part but at the time I watched it, there wasn't. I'll post a link if I can remember it
ruclips.net/video/pCaD8kRTwsI/видео.html
@@muhsinyorgun what platform did you find it on? The documentary..
Panamanian authorities handled this terribly. Should be a warning for any Europeans not to visit 3rd world countries like this
Panama....who the hell goes to Panama really...it's way down nowhere...Besides, all these places are corrupt as hell...And Yes, I absolutely agree with you. I would never go to these kind of countries let alone allow my young daughter to go!!!! Don't care what her age is!!!! Not even over MY dead body. Sorry, but some, many, countries are not OK for travel, period.
@@daisyspanhakbon1364 exactly. And if you are white (gringo) everyone is trying to rip you off and make more money from you, imagine the US behaving like this towards the many members of the latinx community here. There would be outrage!
They were also stupidly naive and trusting. They didn't even know Spanish. They went to a dangerous af country not knowing the local language.
3:40 - that's messed up, the school confirmed they wanted international volunteers but once the pair arrived, turned them down; in other words the school lured them in under false pretenses. If the school had told them the truth beforehand during their first contact and come clean about not wanting non fluent Spanish speakers, the two women probably would have never gone down to Panama in the first place.
they are guilty of murder.
The school was in on their murder. They were tied with a youth gang member who allegedly went swimming with the girls. They returned from their hike and went to go swim with the boys, and then were murdered. Kris knew one of the youth gang members before she went to Panama, she had him as a contact on her phone in Whatsapp.
Yes I thought that was terrible of them, if not strange. To confirm their attendance a few days prior to their arrival and then say they weren't needed after all is odd. Very odd indeed .
This video has a lot of incorrect information. They were told by the school that the girls got the wrong date and weren't needed till next week.
@@floatinghamstick While that might be true, they were only told the school required fluency in Spanish after they arrived in the country.
The saddest part of all this is after they found the phone. The phone showed that the last attempt to call for help by the girls was only 15 hours prior to the parents starting to search for them where they went missing. Something about this case is so creepy. I hope they both R.I.P they seemed to be beautiful souls. 😢😢😢
Why didn't you mention the suspicious tour guide involved with Lisanne and Kris before their hike? There was apparently a TripAdvisor review by a female customer that described his border-line sexual harassment and a creepy joke involving a machete. Also his "helpful" actions pre- and during investigation remind me of the stereotypical arsonist that "assists" authorities in arson investigations.
Ding ding ding!
This may be it
@@shamusdonahue7606 I'm Brother Shamus.
Or the butler?
exactly. and not just the guide but the lady from the appartment, she was involved in some sex trafficking.
I live in Ecuador. As here in Ecuador, Panama has an early sunset. This is something people from North of the equator don't think about. The sun sets at 6:30 every day of the year. Little different in Panama. But similar. With cloud cover and in a wooded area it is pitch black by 6:45. I've been lost in the woods at night before and could only rely on the sound of a stream going downhill to know where I was going. I would guess accident caused by a situational awareness breakdown. Just like being blind in a snowstorm, a pitch black jungle sounds and looks the same no matter the direction you travel.
Yes and that jungle is incredibly dense. You could wander off 100 yards or less and be lost forever
Probably they got eaten by wild animals?
Agree, they decided to explore the jungle, by going off trail, and got lost in there, which I can imagine is easy to do.
Didn't know that,thanks!
@@PlumbNutz it wasn't a jungle and a jungle doesn't delete photos. also, they were not seen while being in a search area the whole time, they didn't get lost
I have researched this intensely some 4 years ago, and I think I've got it figured out. Not the question, who exactly was the main culprit, but it's fairly clear they were abducted and kept as prisoners, and gangr*ped over a long time.
As I speak Spanish, I could search local social media, and found quite a few off-the-record remarks and insider jokes, about "keeping gringos in the basement" and "being an abductor" or "girl killer". This area is narcos territory, and the local youth are heavily implicated with gang activity. Some of them had a beef with another group, and that's when they started hinting at what these guys were trying to hide. The locals probably all know who did it, but don't say a word, because there have already been a few suspicious deaths of people "who knew too much".
The girls managed to flee, but fell down a ravine, this is when the last photos were taken. Kris died of her injuries, and Lisanne was taken back to the dungeon.
When the parents arrived and search parties started to comb the area, the narcos got nervous and wanted the police and the reporters out of the area, which is riddled with hidden cocaine kitchens.
That's when Lisanne was killed, too. Carefully selected remains of the girls were strategically placed, so that they could be found. A corrupt state prosecutor who was in the pockets of the narcos quickly concluded that they had gotten lost and fell victims to an accident. Case closed, now everybody go home, please.
There are a lot of people who know the truth, and a lot of them should be behind bars. But the truth will never come out as long as drug lords rule over the area.
.... and then I have an eerie feeling that some of those "disinformation agents" or people who have an avid interest in dispelling any suspicion of foul play, are also active in this comments section. They are characterized by aggressively attacking anybody who questions the official narrative, and categorically ruling out any foul play.
excellent, im totally at one with this take on what actually happened
Thank you for mentioning the corrupt state prosecutor. They even have the guts to publish a book "advertising" that the girls were lost. Makes you wonder about humanity.
Stop spreading lies. There are no cartels or drug lords in Boquete. Boquete is one of the most beautiful towns in Panama, and it is packed with tourists all year. Since it is such a popular tourist destination police patrol the area at all times.
If you will claim Boquete is controlled by gangs or drug lords you better show where you got that info from because thats 100% bs
@@TheGothGaming Based on how the local police and authorities are handling evidences of the case, it is not unreasonable to say that the police and Panama authorities are corrupt, or incompetent at the very least.
Incompetent and corrupt authorities breeds gangs and drug activity, that holds true everywhere in the world, not just Boquete.
Questions like how photo #509 got deleted by a computer, or why evidences were not handled properly are unanswered. Info released by the Panamanian government is one thing, whether they are logical is another.
This story is full of lies, deceit & cover-ups when at the heart of it are two very broken families who deserve nothing but the truth. I hope the truth comes out one day, only then will these two young, vibrant, beautiful women be able to rest peacefully. All they wanted to do was live their lives to the fullest. My heart breaks for them. The police who ‘handled’ this case should be deeply ashamed. It’s embarrassing.
This case was shady as hell. I think the tour guide and drug gang had something to do with it.
Whether it was by accident or a gang was involved, one thing that stood out that might have doomed these unfortunate girls: their stubborness. They've been warned that the trail would be risky for two inexperienced foreign girls to take yet they ignored it and went anyway. Taking an unfamiliar jungle trail without a guide was a disaster waiting to happen and, worse, they might even have underestimated it. From the time they departed for their ill-advised trek to nowhere, they were already doomed.
@@ronnelacido1711 the feminist empowerment agenda is getting girls killed .
El missing o, make me el sicko el feeling
And the police
The taxi driver, the tour guide and what sounds like someone or a few people with machete. Could be that the tour guide was upset he didn't get the contract. Though that contract obligatory in that country as most women can see now
that photo with the head and blonde hair explains a lot. The way the hair looks especialy on the upper side, and also lack of hair on the lower part, it is clear that somebody is holding that hair from the top, exactly the way you hold a head after beheading. So in this picture i'm 100% sure, that the girl's head wasn't attached to her body anymore. Take a look and analize.
Do you mean they were murdered ?
@@Sandoz-tq7qj Of cause they were.
The only way this case will get solved is if it is kept alive. The investigation was poorly conducted (perhaps on purpose) and the people responsible for their death are still out there. The people from the surrounding area know what happened but they will not speak without the proper protection. Reopen the case, let them speak and give them whatever protection they need. May the truth come forth.
The locals won't talk because they're scared. I don't blame them.
They were abducted and r a p e d... after that... they were killed and whoever did it... attempted to dispose of them.
Animals got to it (dug it up) and tried to hide the remains to consume them over time... after a while another animal found whatever was left. After which the remains were moved again.
Which is why they randomly appear and were scattered in such odd places. No distinguishable pattern to see, the photos were taken either buy them or possibly whomever abducted them.
Maybe they considered a ransom at first and scratched the idea later and just used them and killed them! Idk... I really don't know actually.
This is a weird one, always has been.
How can 2 girls on a hiking trip both meet with accidents and both die at the same time? Totally illogical. They were murdered
While I agree with you that there was a foul play, I wanted to mention some information I read that says they died at dif times, the bodies were in dif states of decomposition. & that their remains were also found a good distant apart from each other. & lastly; I read that there was still bottled water & snacks in Lisannes book bag. If they were alive up to the 10 days (when the phone was still being turned on & passwords entered incorrectly) I believe they would’ve finished the water & eaten the snacks.. as they had not packed enough for such an unexpected, lengthy hike. (I think that’s also important given that the bag was found in good condition (despite supposedly having been subjected to the outdoor elements & was discovered a large distance away from where the girls remains were found. Not to mention the cell phones were found in the bag & not with their remains/bodies. & why would their bras have been in the bag & not on them ? So many unanswered questions/ things not adding up to a simple “2 girls hiking made a wrong turn & got lost.”
Man who gonna cut off limbs from their own body though it was murder.
That’s what I been wondering from the moment I heard about this case.
I truly have no idea what happened. This case is so mysterious.
It sure is 🤔
Hardly mysterious, the gang killing pretty much explains it..
@@arbjful they got lost.
@@proudmen1220 I would have believed that if their phone hadn’t registered a wrong passkey entry. There could be a cover up by the Panama authorities
@@arbjful any evidence?
The point that PROVES there was no major accident is that they never used their bras as a bandage, strapping or padding. They 100% would have if so.
I couldn't imagine letting my 18 year old daughter go off to some shthole country alone.
You are a good parent.
My heart aches and breaks for these two lovely young ladies. I really hope and pray they are at nothing but peace now....as they both so much deserve 💜❤️
My heart goes to these poor girls, I was born in Panama and my family is from David, Chiriqui and it’s disturbing to me. This was no accident. There is probably still a killer lurking
A killer or killers. He probably wasn`t alone.
I've watched shows about them so many times. I watch them all though because it's so baffling.
Those night time pictures are creepy af and lead me to believe foul play
Wirklich sehr traurig das Ganze 😢 In 2012 bin ich die gleiche Strecke mit einem Guide gegangen. Dort oben kann man nicht von einfachen Wanderwegen sprechen. Sehr dichter Hochnebelregenwald und nicht immer einfach zu laufen. Ich war sehr froh nicht alleine gegangen zu sein und hoffte die ganze Zeit, dass ihm Nichts passieren würde, weil alleine hätte ich nicht zurück gefunden, um Hilfe zu holen oder ähnliches. Spät Nachmittag wurde es schnell dunkel, kühl und wilde Tiere gibt es dort auch.
I lived in Boquete for some time and it’s a shady place overall for a young woman, i actually moved there 4 months after this and i only heard the story once. I’m really sorry for what happened to them, good souls in a bad place.
Oh god please be safe
I'm from the Argentine, a place not only geographically but culturally very different from Panama and according to most people quite safe compared to Central America. But no offence intended to Panamanians, both countries are Latin America and have complex social issues completely alien to most Europeans, Americans or Australians / New Zealanders. I have worked in tourism a lot as well, many people visit Buenos Aires and many other places in the country and everything goes usually smoothly, although cases like this one have happened here years ago in Northern provinces.
So please, people from Europe and the US and everywhere else, heed this advice (especially girls, who tend to be less watchful): Latin America is an enormous place full of wonders and great people, but many areas are very isolated and wild. The rate of inhabitants per square km in South America is 28 while in Europe is 130 and in the US 40. That means, getting lost many times means finding no people or towns for days.
Thence: travel in groups; don't venture in solitary areas alone; accept help from locals but be suspicious of groups of people insisting on helping no matter what; learn polite ways of saying no in local languages; tell people from your hotel / place where you go and for how long, and keep in contact; DON'T PARTY WITH STRANGERS; please understand that being blond / reddish white will call the attention of many, except in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Chile but not in all areas; stay safe and find emergency numbers before going anywhere; don't do drugs or get drunk in places full of strangers; don't solicit escort services; please stay safe.
As a Brazilian, I second this. He gave gold advice. Also if it's too good to be true probably it is.
Girls are much much more "watchful" than boys. They're just targeted by men more frequently.
Love your pic, the old SoM fan I am. I also love Argentina....I was in Buenos Aires and El Calafate for one month in january 2020, right before the Covid hit off.
You will not be accepted as part of the 1st world, as much as you distance from latin america
So the missing photo was at the absolute my crucial moment. From when the girls were smiling an fine….*photo deleted*…and then they are in the dark forest. I don’t know what happened but protecting the tourism industry should never be overlooked. An wow, a guy who took a photo of them died days later mysteriously…yea foul play is looking more likely.
When I saw the picture @ 18:42 which he said was named, Jose Manuel, I distinctly remembered his pic because I just read about him. Anyway, his name is Jose Manuel Guzman from Texas, USA. His story is pretty gross. I'm not sure if the narrator was misinformed but I'm not certain of the credibility of this story. Just saying......🤔
The picture can in fact be found on Google.
The photo was probably deleted by authorities. 2 Way more in depth videos here:
ruclips.net/video/du1y_jRiiGU/видео.html
@@amateurtouring I have watched it (and part 1). Very convincing. Part 3 has not yet been made. The "accident theory" seems impossible to defend.
I agree with your remark about protecting the tourist industry. The powers that be wanted to close this case as quickly as possible.
I think they were held somewhere in a building for days. There was a weird tour guide who apparently had a ranch in the forest. I think maybe they were held there.
Never hiking there after learning about these ladies.
Another thing that always bothered me, is the picture of the blonde hair. That looks a lot like blood, not highlights or "strawberry blonde" hair to me.
Definitely not blood.
As someone who handles blood regularly, that is definetly NOT bloodied hair
- The girls didn't take photos for 2h30 between photo 508 and the first call to 112 - No photos either for 7 days before the 90 fotos in 3 hours- No sign at all where they are supposed to have been lost and injured both at the same time- No message to the family - And Lisanna alone protect the phones and the camera in the bag just before passing.
It was a very bad idea to go off by themselves like they did. Just because you are well educated does not make you smart.
No one will ever know,what happened to these ladies.i feel sorry for their parents.
Foul play 100%
Why are you certain?
@@ehanneken the pictures from the pinesta show clear manipulation in their exif data from post photo photoshopping.
@@nickyblue4866 We already knew the Panamanian investigators were bad at preserving evidence. It’s quite a leap to say that proves the women were murdered.
with no evidence
I agree bro. 💯
Deleted images on a digital camera still hold the data on the memory card and can still be recovered easily
The FBI tried to recover the image, and couldn't do so. I trust their expertise more than yours.
No, because when a picture on a digital camera is deleted from a computer that data can be erased
This has always perplexed me. In order to permanently destroy the data so that it can't be recovered, you have to delete it and then write over it. Kris and Lisanne could have done this themselves. They could have decided they didn't want the picture, delete it, and then write over it while taking the night pictures. My question is, what data was written over the missing photo? Was it the night photos, or was it something else? And this really is a different subject, but how don't some people see giant red flags that the deleted photo marks the end of normality. The only picture they deleted just happens to precede everything going wrong.
Here's something I just thought of. What if the part of the purpose of the night pictures was to cover up #509? What I mean is, the killer wants to plant the camera so that it looks like an accident, but his picture is on it. So he deletes the picture, but now he has to overwrite it with something so that it can't be restored... So he goes out and snaps a bunch of pictures including one of Kris' head, until he's satisfied that the data is overwritten. Just a random thought.
Anyone who thinks this wasn’t foul play doesn’t realise the world we’re living in at the moment they were murdered and dumped and probably wild animals scavenging took the remains away leaving them scattered throughout the landscape
wow youre such a realist, so cool very brave
Fact. There is no way it was accident. Too much activity going on in that area as we speak in regards to kidnappings, murder, gangs, and drugs. I bet the locals know more than theyre putting on too.
@@Enough_Tumbleweed And? How is that any different than any ghetto in any American city? This is why you pay attention to a literal sign saying "don't walk down this trail"... but these two young ladies weren't interested in the warning. They found out the hard way.
"Anyone who thinks this wasn’t foul play" - while i agree that's a highly possible explanation (considering the criminal element in the area), these pictures make me wonder if that's true (why the F would some dudes who abducted these girls even touch the camera, let alone take actual seemingly meaningless flash pictures in the dark? It doesn't make any sense).
I'm thinking these girls got lost, and were using their phones to sporadically test whether they were in signal range, and those weird nighttime photos were probably to scare off animals (with the camera flash)...it just makes the most sense, and explains the phone/camera behavior perfectly.
said with zero evidence
The same 5 pictures over and over, text on the screen following exactly what the narrator is saying. This is some of the most irritating video editing Ive ever seen
Thanks for following up on this. I remember this case.
I am from Germany and I know the story.
I’m glad that you are talking very good so I can understand a lot.
Thank you very much💚
This is such a good coverage of the case, but you forgot to mention the finding of a shoe from one of the girls that still has a clean cut foot in it, a testimony from local stated that some local men boasted about making some European women as their plaything, which was not included in the Panama's police record, as well as suspicion towards the girls's guide that actually has a connection to a local gang and previous conviction of criminals involving women. These evidences are strong indicators of foul play & cover up...
3:43
Terrific advanced planning here.
Why WOULD a school want volunteers who couldn’t speak the language of the children?
21:00
The truth of the matter is that any 2 young, attractive women who put themselves is such a situation are just stupid.
Of course they were murdered. Did they really think they could “just say no”?
An unarmed man would be at risk there alone.
Awesome video! It really annoys me that the school rejected them after initially agreeing.
School of Gumtree....same people phone you up for goods,are never appear!
There was some speculation it was part of a trafficking operation through some intermediary in another country. Really shady stuff.
Maybe they didn't know for sure they couldn't speak spanish
@@The_10th_Manthey weren’t trafficked though - their bones were found
in another video, it says they were declined b/c school wasnt starting up yet. and to come back later. im sure the next video will mention Aliens from a spaceship got them...
Someone killed those girls for organs, I would think, but either way, someone killed those poor girls and put their bones where they were found down stream..the bags to. Weird how only some bones were found and the ones found were stripped. Also the two guys with them, the entire thing is sketch. Then how the school just bailed last minute??? Weird.
ya like where were their skulls, ribs, spines, everything else plus their clothing?
Bingo💯
@@haileennevsmom09so they never found the rest of their remains and clothes?
I mean the school bailing last minute was possibly unrelated. A good portion of latin americans do not give two fucks about other people's time (as someone from there)
The risk of 2 young well meaning attractive women setting out on a known sinister trail is incomprehensible. I'm sure they had the best of intentions of adventure and discovery. But very sadly met a horrible end probably like the last plausible cause as related.
Wasn’t the missing pic completely wiped from the camera? Requiring connecting remove phone to a computer?
I remember sittinf in a jail cell and some guy had a whole panama story he said "you know what i learned going to panama? Dont go to panama."
Is Panama getting better ?
They started their hike around 11:30, and the dog was not with them at all. But I think they made it back from the trail and got picked up by the "Gang of 5" near the restaurant. Several witnesses told police they saw them around 4:30. Several reported seeing the now famous red pickup truck too. The first emergency call was around 4:40? So, something spooked them once they got in the truck.
It's also important to remember that the guide they had booked for Apirl 2 (Feliciano), gave an interview to Channel 21 in Panama during the search, stating he thought it was foul play because the guides would have found them had it been an accident.
The taxi said he dropped them off at 1.30pm but the photos had a different time stamp
@@Tomplayzeverything5156 The driver either got it wrong or lied out of fear. I think the latter.
I couldn't imagine leaving Panama without my daughter. That would be the worst flight ever.
This is an obvious murder
I've dug quite a bit into this one in the past, and there is quite a bit more information out there about police corruption in the area and missing/murdered tourists there in previous years. Due to the area depending heavily on tourism, they have plenty of motivation to cover things up. (and total aside, but the fact that the host families didn't immediately alert the police is insane to me...both they and whatever company arranged the host families should face charges there)
And the guide was rummaging around in their apartment before the police were informed.
There is an actual good video on RUclips that point out that people saw them return from their hike. And theorizes they went somewhere with someone afterwards.
@@amateurtouring
That WOULD explain why Lisanne, an avid picture taker, didn't take any more pictures. If they returned no need to because plenty were taken on the way up.
If they willingly moved further on, beyond the stream in picture 508 towards the monkey bridge why didn't Lisanne take any more pictures in this new and pretty area? The first monkey bridge was hours away yet not a single picture of the terrain between 508 and the first monkey bridge? That doesn't add up.
@@lyndoncmp5751 because they didn’t view the jungle as very pretty by then. They were over it and wanted nothing more than to go home. Iv seen several videos on this story and Iv never heard anyone say they had seen them return. Sounds like something the host family would say to cover their ass! I feel like with all the pics they had taken of pretty much nothing or everything they were being chased deeper into the jungle. People don’t realize it but it’s dark AF in the jungle. What little light that makes it to the jungle floor is usually gone by 3pm. Maybe they were using the flash to light their way. But I would think that would have the opposite effect.
@@lyndoncmp5751 Someone had taken the flash card out of the camera, and manipulated it with Photoshop. Some photos were deleted and others rearranged in a different chronological order.
They even magnified portions of a photo and copied it over other photos. You can tell by the rain patterns on the photos that were taken in the dark. The exact same rain patterns can be found in several photos, but in different degrees of magnification to make it look as if they were different photos. This was probably done because some of the original photos showed the persecutors, who had followed the girls after their attempt to escape.
Well, the fact that those 2 gentlemen were killed tells me that the 2 women were indeed murdered.
Tying up the loose ends, gangster-style.
Would be interesting to know details from the other cases that happened later on the same trail. If more hikers get lost on the same trail and there is evidence for foul play I could immagine that the same person or group of people were also involved earlier.
one European girl was. a salted,
It's sad these girls and their families didn't know how dangerous Panama is. I've had friends that were deployed there in the US army and they related how extremely lawless and dangerous most of Panama is.
Panama is the third safest country in Latin America, mate.
@@guillermogouldburn763 That’s not saying much… at all
@@guillermogouldburn763 Ah yes, Latin America. Known for it's safety.
@@callumg_0147 How about it's so safe, thousands of North Americans and Europeans are living there and not one of them has been murdered yet? The Nomadic Movement live exactly in the area these girls disappeared and they even have their little daughter living with them. Three years in and they are loving it. Nobody has murdered them yet, lol. Those girls got lost and the elements killed them. They were not Navy SEAL's trained to survive in the jungle, for Christ's sake.
you could say this about any place
There has been so much said about this case already. It's like we all know the answer, if not the exact details or the perpetrators. The girls were murdered; all evidence points to that. Even the authorities said early on that it was foul play. But they quickly retracted their story soon after for fear of losing out on tourism and/or having to go against some locals which they didn't want to deal with. It seems to be a corrupt place, where they're dealing with issues in a peculiar way.
It was such a mistake for the girls to travel to Panama, just the two of them on their own. They could have gone with an arranged group-tour not to be subjected to unpleasant surprises or having to lose their lives.
R.I.P.
What's your source on the authorities saying it was foul play? There's a lot ov misinformation on this case.
Just don’t travel to south america/central america just to walk in the jungle. It’s not worth it. The government will cover things up if somethings happens and the criminal gang/cartel rate is huge. Please think before you travel🙏🏾
I mean, my friend lived in and traveled alone across Brazil for 3 years and nothing happened. These girls were unprepared and careless. Mistake #1: going into a wild jungle hike alone, without a guide or some trusted local, Mistake #2: going for a hike so late at 2pm, which is only 4 hours before full darkness sets in, Mistake #3: not turning back and going beyond the Mirador point despite warnings, Mistake #4: not carrying any emergency supplies like alcohol pads for wounds, lighter, flashlight, etc, Mistake #5: dressing up NOT for a jungle hike, making themselves a target for bug bites, cuts and scratches, Mistake #6: going swimming to the remote waterfall area with untrusted guys - gang members (not certain but still). I can go on and on. They should have paid a trusted local guide to take them to all those remote areas and inform everyone of who they're going with & where before heading out. And did some google searches on what to pack and how to dress on a jungle hike.
@@EvgeniyaJZ It is NOT a jungle and they did not get lost, so #1 to #5 is not applicable here. #6 is the one that hits home. They were kidnapped by gang members.
@@EvgeniyaJZ would think that any “ local “ guide would be suspect due to many things, corruption, money, etc
I am brasilian and you are xenophobic.
The real question everyone should be asking is what kind of parent doesn't hop on the first flight to their children's whereabouts because they're "afraid of planes".
11:28 That's not reddish-blonde hair. That's thin blonde hair over pinkish skin. If you look at the pictures of the girls, the one with blonde hair has thin hair, you can see it from her part-- thicker hair has more volume, and you don't usually see that much of the scalp unless it's done super neatly.
There's bloom in the shot-- look at the way the color of her hair bleeds into the background. That piece of reddened hair is just a result of camera artfacting, reflecting her skin into the hair.
Which leads me to believe this is a photo of the back of her head. It's super tangled, probably because she hadn't tied it back (they weren't expecting to be out there long.)
But the thing that raises red flags for me is that stray brown hair in the image. That's not a camera quirk, that's definitely hair. But why would her hair be angled like that? Reaching towards her friend? I have long brown hair, this really only happens if you're taking an image of something below you and your hair ends up dangling in the shot.
Then there's the way her hair is resting. You can see her forelock angled out, really all of her hair fanning out, but as you can see from the rest of the images, her hair isn't styled, it's flat. The only way I could see it appearing this way, if it really is the back of her head, is if she were laying down with her face in the dirt, and her friend (or someone else with longer brow hair,) is taking the picture while standing over her.
What I’ve never understood was when the backpack was found, both of the bras they were wearing at beginning of the hike were inside. Why would they take them off? That doesn’t make sense to me.
They're really uncomfortable and sweat can cause chafing.
@@dammitmom I get what you’re saying, but it would make more sense to take off the top and just wear the bra if they were very hot.
Comfort probably they wouldn’t really need them out there I’m not a woman though lol
And if there was a major accident, they would have utilised the bras as a bandage, strapping or padding. They didnt have anything else for the purpose. Yet they didn't do so.
Maybe they hiked nude for tripping?
Never thought the accident theory held water personally. They were both young and strong - one was a volleyball player but both hiked this trail in very good time according to the time stamps on their pictures so they were clearly sure footed and fit. So very doubtful both would befall an accidental drowning or fall in my opinion. The temps were warm and plenty of water and insect life so they would survive many weeks if lost, and presumably both intelligent with university degrees so would not wander too far off once they realized they were lost. Finally, if they had been injured and those pictures were used to ward off animals etc and they were conserving battery - I still think that when they were beginning to lose hope - they would have used their remaining battery to record a message or text for their families saying what happened and goodbye. They were both very close to their families. There is no way they would run out their batteries taking pictures of hair and garbage and trees and not leave a message for their parents. All the evidence was staged to look accidental in my opinion.
100% agree
Good analysis 👍
Could the missing photo have shown too much?
Would the suspected guide or anybody else would follow them for days?... Would a third party have let them the possibility of even trying to make an emergency call?
I doubt that the members of a gang would come to the idea of taking photos for several days and would take the time to do it.
Malarky, anyone can have an accidental including athletes. Look at Uli Steck, world class mountaineer who died from a simple fall while practicing. Odds are they were using the camera flash as a flash light to find their way in the dark. The deleted photo could be anything. Everyone has taken a dumb photo and decided to delete it. The story doesn't make sense to be foul play. A murderer wouldn't spend days playing with the phones just to establish a fake story to hide the crime. The conditioned that the backpack was found in was strange but not unexplainable. If anything nefarious went on I'm sure it's more thr incompetence of the Panamanian searchers and authorities.
Spoken like someone with no experience in the wilderness. Doesn't matter how fit you are if you slip and fall in the cloud forest, you're done. They weren't in a city park, they were in the mountainous jungle at a high elevation with steep cliffs and harsh climate. They had no outdoor gear, no map, no GPS, they were extremely naive city people who went into the hostile wilderness alone. There could've been foul play, but all these "accident theory makes no sense" comments are from city people with no experience in nature. Just look at how many people vanish in national parks across the US every year.
For two relatively strong, healthy women to both have an accident that crippled them is highly unlikely. There has been speculation that the guide they booked has had many harassment charges against him and that something could have gone wrong somewhere during their guided hike. I hope one day the real answer, without speculation, comes out. My thoughts are with their families and loved ones. Please - be careful out there, particularly in new areas.
@Christopher Bingham Well, it was exactly THIS guide who broke into the girls' room after their disappearance and went through their belongings. And it was exactly this guide who oh so happened to find remains of the girls not just once, but twice ! in the middle of the jungle. And the Indio woman who found the backpack just oh so happened to work for exactly this guide.
Don't you think that's at least a bit suspicious?
@@christopherbingham5092 I am not saying that the tour guide is guilty or innocent but those 5 star reviews are mostly from women accompanied by men, or a bigger group of people including other men, or families where a man is present, the negative review was from a woman traveling alone without the company of a man, I think what I'm trying to say is pretty obvious, her experience was a lot worse because she was a young female traveling alone, while the others had good experiences.
@@christopherbingham5092
1. Yes he got permission from the hostess Miriam. That doesn't make it okay, it just means she was wrong too. Miriam claims she made the girls dinner on the night of the 1st, and waited up till 11pm for them to come home. But she never rang them. In the morning she left the house without checking if they came home, without ringing them. It wasn't until the phone call from Feliciano at 10am on the 2nd that it occurred to her that there was a problem. Why didn't Miriam call them? Why did Miriam allow a strange man they don't know to snoop around in their bedroom? What if they'd been in bed undressed? It's bizarre. And what was the point of him going into their bedroom, what was he looking for?
2. The remains Feliciano found were scant enough that they didn't show evidence of a cause of death. Knowing the area doesn't mean you should have spidey-senses about where remains are. And the murder theory doesn't say Feliciano did it, it says his son did it.
3. You call it trust, I call it power. The Latino landowners have power over the indigenous people. The witness Martina has said that Feliciano has threatened her to keep quiet, and she's not the only one. 5-star reviews from men or women-with-men are irrelevant, we're talking about unaccompanied women. Of which the reviews are pretty dire, one saying he kept touching her and made her feel threatened, even joking about chopping her legs off.
@@christopherbingham5092
1. Miriam is not necessarily directly involved, it could just be she's a bad hostess. But her actions deserve questioning. Even if Miriam consented to Feliciano in their bedroom, the girls didn't. It's not appropriate to give out the key to girls' bedrooms, so a tour guide known to be sleazy with European girls can snoop around just because he says they were late for a hike. We only have Feliciano's word they booked a hike with him for the 2nd, the families say the girls booked a hike with Feliciano for the 6th, not the 2nd. And the German girl Eileen who Feliciano says booked the appointment for the girls, she quickly went back to Germany and was never questioned by police.
2. The murder theory says they planted selected remains to show the girls were dead, to make the parents go away, thus closing the case. The parents had publicly vowed not to leave Panama if their daughters might still be alive. Locals said the Panamanian authorities only took the case seriously in front of the parents. Another motive may've been to claim the $30,000 reward, a life-changing sum to most Panamanians. There were multiple fingerprints and DNA found on the backpack. Irma and Luis, the indigenous couple who found it, contradicted each other about how they found it. They also gave it to Feliciano's brother, Domingo.
3. There are other reviews backing it up, here is one from a Belgian woman saying the same thing: www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUserReviews-g298424-d3755701-r840823783-Feliciano_Tours-Boquete_Chiriqui_Province.html I also include the book "Ne t'en fais pas, nous sommes amis..." by Nina von Rönne, which details her experience living next to Feliciano in 2015 and his sleazy, angry behaviour: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/summaries-and-analysis-of-some-books.html
Feliciano got banned from a hotel for harassing women: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5-of-7-cinco-muertos-five-dead/id1650171879?i=1000586925449
For this case, they haven't been able to id any 3rd party and many have already claimed that this was a crime case; for the JonBenet case, they haven't been able to id any intruder yet already claimed the Ramseys had nothing to do with her death. What a crazy world!
Look, if a gang had killed them they simply would have buried them deep, that is what you do to hid bodie and to hide a crime, that would be the end of the matter, not leave behind clothes, phones expensive camera, bodies, and all the evidence that could contain (DNA, fingerprints etc).
The 911 calls tell the story that they got lost, got weak, confused and probably had a accident, the unusual call patterns was because mostly the phones showed totally no coverage, so no point wasting valuable battery, and the 911 calls they did (4 some days) make was when the phones showed some coverage, phones do that where the coverage is poor, show some coverage but are unable to connect, has happened to me.
People with those theory's of murder are more about themselves that the truth, for the locals warned them against that trip without a guide for a good reason, and that's why today people are warned against that trip without a guide!
Simple misadventure, happens often in those kind of dangerous territories with people without the right or no experience!
No, no, no, there were only ever two narratives and that is lost in jungle, or foul play. The original search found nothing and yet 10 weeks later plenty of evidence turned up. The evidence was planted to make people think they were lost. Most of the evidence was missing anyways.
Let me explain something to you. Gangs are known to operate in the area, they operate in the dense jungle especially, why? they do not want attention brought on themselves, they do not want to be seen doing what they do. So 2 tourists from a first world country go missing in a country heavily reliant on tourism dollars. It’s then followed by world wide media attention and a dispatch of a dozen Dutch personnel including detectives , dogs & search and rescue persons. In addition to a reward of 30k for information on the whereabouts of the girls, good incentive for anyone to start poking around the jungle looking for clues or to come clean with information.
Do gangs want their jungle searched so a dog can smell a shallow grave or drug cache be stumbled upon?
or do they want the bodies to be “found” in a way that points to accidental death which ends the search, reward and investigation altogether?
Do Panamanian politicians want tourism dollars to stop because two girls went there and mysteriously disappeared never to be found again?
Or do they want this to be a story of misadventure, they succumbed to the elements and their remains were later recovered because they got lost and didn’t have a guide.
Misdirecting the search and investigation sure does sound like a better option for the perpetrators who have a lot more to lose the longer it goes on.
So you can be willfully ignorant anywhere. Don’t be it here.
They would have been targeted as soon as they walked into town . Once they hiked into the jungle they were in full jeopardy . Why did the Dog leave them ? The jungle does not bleach bones.
I definitely think they were attacked and dismembered by some locals
me too where are all the other parts of them and their skulls and their clothes?
It’s crazy it’s been almost a decade since their disappearance!
Video doesn't mention the hiking boot found with the clean cut leg still inside. And whoever suggested "ghosts" by looking at the orbs in the photos...please, that has to be rain or dust particles.
Unsure if there was evidence of the foot being actually cut, but it happens often with bodies dumped at the sea that their feet become unattached and the tight shoes help preserve the foot in relatively good conditions. So the foot wasn't necessarily separated from the rest of the leg while they were still alive
@@ashimochi report said it was a clean cut. So something sharp cut it off.
@@rageagaintstheNWO ah I missed that, then yeah, suspicious af
There are people living in jungles in secluded areas, sometimes they are territorial about strangers entering their domain.....
A lot of people don't know the cab driver that dropped them off was murdered a year later.
And that there is missing security camera footage from a store and that the “gang” was a few friends they had met and that there were witnesses that saw them return from their hike
ruclips.net/video/du1y_jRiiGU/видео.html
I don’t believe their death was accidental, that little TripAdvisor guide they knew had something to do with it. I do believe their organs were harvested and bones discarded after the fact. The pictures are sketchy, the missing pic is strange. I wish an actual answer to this case existed but it’s all theory’s and questions. I hope they had some peace in their last moments
The Panamanian authorities are as guilty as the gang in all of this. Unacceptable mishandling from their part.
Yep💯.. they all in on it.. Human and organ trafficking
They were murdered, those of us who have worked and lived in third world countries know how dangerous it is particularly for young foreign women.
The fact that she took a pic of Kris after she had probably died already makes me think accident . But the way the bones were scattered so far , and kris’ bones were bleached makes me think foul play . Idk such a weird case
I absolutely don't think this was "an accident". It was murder. What's concerning is was the government involved in the coverup?
I'm always amazed at how many young women go into counties and places that are very heavily not safe to travel by themselves. While I don't really know if I believe gang or anyone else was involved or if they just kept getting deeper and deeper into trouble by not staying in one spot while waiting for help, it is strange that the only person that could have possibly known where they were was a tour guide. As someone who's father was a probation officer, self defense instructor and karate instructor for over 20 years I just can't even with the amount of young women who think they are invincible and trek out into areas that are dangerous. Homework, ladies, homework. And if you think the area might even kind of be dangerous, you and a friend together is not enough to stave off the danger that lurks in areas unknown. Adventure is one thing but safety is of the utmost. Stop ignoring the warnings.
Because they don't realize how dangerous these countries are, they think people who say this are just racist or "ignorant" people (the irony). They also probably don't realize how fair they are treated in their home country probably thinking women are oppressed in their comfy country. It's like the dumbass couple that though it's be safe to bike across Iraq and Afghanistan ......they we're discovered beheaded. It's just ignorant SJWs getting culled from the flock
They were murdered by a guide named feliciano. Multiple woman cam forward saying he was extremely inappropriate and scary. It isn’t a coincidence he was the last person who saw them. They turned downed his services and stalked and killed them
@@blackbartthepoet3820 has there been an official conviction, I remember reading about the guide before but they never did anything because lack of evidence.
@@thedoge9590 no. No conviction and honestly being in Panama. Most likely never will be. Sadly
You are using common sense, which is a good thing. Most women don't. The key is you had a father to teach you these things, it is surprising how many disappeared girls were only raised by a single mother. (which I don't know if that is the case here)
It's obvious to me whoever was using camera and phone wasn't the girls because they would have tried writing a SMS or message to friends and family, if trapped in a bad situation. Even if they did not document their bad situation with the camera , by recording a statement to let people know what happened for example(which would seem like something you do) , there would be more phone records of them trying to reach the outside world other than calling 112. I would guess their killer(s) took the phones and camera, asked for the codes, and called 112 themselves and took the pictures to make it seem like they got lost. The picture of the head is done in a way that it could have been taken by one of the girls, but i very much doubt that it was.
3:50 The narrator refers to the school in Panama that wanted them to know fluent Spanish, and shows this picture of a classroom more than likely in Poland. LMAO! The white tailed eagle on the wall is a national symbol of Poland (which seems to be minus it's crown- which could be indicative of the Communist era), the writing on the chalkboard is in Polish, and the book sticking out of the box says something about drawings on it. WTF? This is what you get when you use stock footage!
Two attractive white females. Happens all over the world. Especially to tourists. Sad and scary. Our govt is failing us by not letting people know this is happening way to often
My mom usually likes to go to Buquete, which is many hours away from where she lives. I guess because of the weather being cooler and the deep mountain scenery being so beautiful. But she would never, ever, wander into the deep woods though for any type of hiking.
To think the authorities will move a finger without you paying them is a joke.
My condolences to both of their family, this is extremely sad. We need to realize, being in another country without a proper guide, i.e Panama, that far into the jungle is a risk. Even with a guide, you’re gambling with your life.
The drowning of the person who took the girls pictures, says to me that foul play is all over this. Gangs back home now, are just like cartels. They don’t 🤬around. It’s scary and they have no mercy for anything other than their wrong doings. This is sad, I pray their parents can find answers and that the idiots that did this pay a heavy price.
It is Boquete, which in spanish means a type of hole.
This. Most police are lazy af. Even in the US, they basically rely on volunteers to actually hike and look for remains, while they sit in their cars eating. If it wasn't for narcs, the US police wouldn't catch anybody, ever. And the third world police are WAY worse.
Seems possible they were attacked by a small number of people quite soon after starting out, fled, got lost. One was eventually caught, the other was carrying the bag managed to escape and spent the next few days hiding and lost, trying to call out. She was eventually found but her captors returned the bag where it would be found to divert attention from themselves
It must’ve been terrifying for them
that what i think, and mentioned that theory a few times? the friend with the backpack, with the phones and camera in it , tryed to use her friend's phone. but did not no the password, poor girl's god bless them.
that explains the weird night photos. One of girl escaped that night and to flash the camera to guide the way out.
What 2 girls Go on a hike with a dog but never take one picture of it?
Because of no pictures I believe the dog never went with them.
i’ve always felt they were forced into the rainforest by an outside force. Somebody chasing them and they went deep in by accident.
100% then were found and killed!
you were there???
@@thedude9014everyone says they were smart girls. And probably would’ve known to stay on the trail. What other conclusion can you draw. They were chased, and then found later by who it was. Suggested by, The planted evidence. And the Bleach the bones. If that backpack falls down a ravine, it’s not going to be dry. Somebody planted that there. That old guy probably had something to do with it. Since he took everyone straight to where the bones were. Probably the tour guide, and the taxi driver. Not only that but they had hike trails before. so they know what not to do right
Feelings don't count, hard evidence does!
If we had to depend only Feelings we would be in a bad way (I have a feeling this can fly)🤣.
The fact they didn't take any pictures after #508 that day, when they were taking a complete record of their route prior to then tells us that something happened shortly after. If they went beyond the point in #508 they were likely taken or probably chased/cornered in that direction. Any new portion or terrain/scenery Lisanne too a picture of it.
By the way, non of the pictures taken that day shows them off the trail. They kept to it and did not stray from it.
Its hours walking from #508 to the first monkey bridge, yet not single picture between #508 and the monkey bridge were taken, despite passing some great scenery.
The backpack did not show signs of being in a serious accident, particularly the flimsy cheap sunglasses. No sign of blood on or in it either. Surely if they had a major accident this would likely have involved bleeding. Youd think they'd be rummaging in the bag to use the bras as a bandage or strap or padding, yet they didn't.
In the warnings about that particular trail, no concrete information was given about just what to “watch out for” Just general warnings that people should not hike without a guide, etc. I bet the locals know the real reason…but don’t want tourism negatively impacted.
Also, Margarita, having lost her son to the same people, is most likely telling the truth. I hope she can be kept safe…😔
In my experience, locals are honest and will tell people about dangers and anything else. Lots of foreigners dont want to listen to them and will get into trouble. These 2 women make me cringe. So dopey and careless. My God. I wonder what their parents thought...running around Panama would be safe?
It is the same warning you get when you go to any 2nd world or third world country. Always go with a guide or more people preferably a strong man. I think they were feminist extremist and got mouthy with a local or drug cartel
Actually that should apply to ANY hiking trail whether here or around the world. I’ve ran into some weird folks hiking trails right here in the good ol USA.
@@RichWeigel You are absolutely right, Rich.
@@RichWeigel I live in Barcelona here hiking is very safe no crimes happen at all but I tell u the truth as female I will never hike in my life am to scared of jungle as I was raped back in my country morocco being near woods can be dangerous for females
They were stalked most likely and we all can assume what happened also that dude that guided them is so suspicious 🤨
To much evidence of someone else involved so this was not any accident but is murder and a cover up in my opinion...
I hope their families get answers someday. This will continue to haunt me
Kris' parents are not interested in any answers. They have completely shut themselves off against all information, they don't want to have anything to do with the press, or people trying to figure out what happened.
Sadly i also aimed for the foul play theory. The bones and the bleeching seemed so far off for an accident theory... Rest in peace to the girls.