Whole 15secs shorter than the last week’s vid , friends 😅 This is the one where I need all of my Hercule Poirots, Sherlock Holmes’ and Miss Marples! What are your theories on the 11 days? 🕵🏻♀️
Obviously it doesn't make any sense why these two girls would go off the trail and not turn around at the summit, especially considering how poorly equipped they were for the "indigenous" trail (very little water, no proper apparel, no machete, no guide etc.) Also if they got lost, wouldn't they have realized it much much earlier? Why would they place the first emergency call so late? Why would they wait for hours, way beyond the point of no return (sunset) to place an emergency call? Wouldn't you panick much earlier, knowing that you won't be able to make it back safely once the sun sets? Also since the girls documented about everything how come there are no more pictures of the girls past day 1? And the most damning evidence is the one deleted picture. If they were really fighting for survival, why would they waste time deleting pictures after the fact? My theory is the girls were lured off trail by someone they trusted and thus only realized way too late (a couple of hours later) in what predicament they actually were. I presume the girls met their grizzly demise much early on, that is why there are no messages, no pictures of them past day 1. It seems quite obvious that the tour guide Feliciano would clearly appear as a prime culprit since he had intimate knowledge of the surroundings as well as being known to the girls prior and also conveniently owning a farm/house in the vicinity of the trail and he was also one of the few people who knew exactly where the girls were headed.
Well if you consider the mud in the few pics says to me they slid down a hill that they couldn't get back up trying to explore the area.thats why there is mud on her. And at that point they was lost and started making emergency calls. And at some point ran into foul play. I'm not sure how things in the only bag found was folded nice and neat if lost in a jungle or hurt.not sure how 1 shoe/boot from each girl is found together and one had a foot still in it with still soft skin. Not to mention all the multiple times someone tried to get into a phone and couldn't get in. Plus the pics that was deleted later on. There is stuff about this story that says Foul play really came into play. This story is like the JonBenet Ramsey, the Zodiac killer and Jack the Ripper. Like those stories this one is up there in the mysteries that will never will be solved
So weird cause who is this Feliciano dude to report them missing? Two tourists didn’t make it to his tour and so what? They could be doing other things on their time. The guy is a weirdo guilty or not. I mean imagine changing your mind last minute and going swimming instead and this fricking tour guide decides to go through your shit in the airbnb
I agree that I find his actions highly suspicious. He was also the one who found Lizannes boot...? Also it crosses my mind that why would they pay this guide for a guided hike on April 2nd when they knew they were completing this hike the day before in the same area and presumably would have been tired because El Pianista looks like a tough hike.
@@lauragowers1160 they have booked the hike through the german girl not with the guy, and then they changed their mind to do the Pianista a day before.
Sorry, but not suspicious at all. And he was quite the opposite of being ''a weir*o''. In fact its very nice of him, to feel that responsible for his customers , who payed him money in advance, and then they dont show up. A good guide cares ! A good guide cares to also give back their money. Additional when he got the information from the host family that the girls went to the pianista trail, he knew he could help, because he gives many tours to the pianista trail - also he has a farm in that area. He knew that area very good. So his first thought was: i will found this girls. Not only was he the first who wanted to search them. He was also the first who reported them at the police station. He was even angry that the police station didnt took him serious. So he went to the paddocks (beyond Mirador) to look for traces of footsteps of the girls. But he didnt find any traces. Thats when his concerns were even higher. And he tried to get as much information as possible to find the girls (yes, also he begged the family to open the room of the girls, to find hints where the girls wanted to go .. for instance written in their diaries etc). You know: at that point the girls were still alive , and everyone had reason to believe that on 2-3rd april the girls were alive - so the clock was ticking. Of course its very important to get as much information as possible to find the girls ! We remember: at that point there was no smartphone data or foto data available , because smartphone and camera was still in the possession of the girls. So Feliciano and the others had to work with the very small information which were provided by the room of the girls. Feliciano also was again at the police.. and wanted that they search the girls, and he again offered his help. Only then the police took it half-serious, and registered them as missing. We remember: none of the so called witnesses wanted to help at that point. Even Zineproc was not interested at that point. Only when the money was flowing - when the parents of Lisanne and Kris promised 30k for everyone who could give information about the girls, everyone came out of the woodwork , and made up claims (because at worst: nothing happens... and at best its a bullseye-guess and the 'witnesses' living in poverty win in the guessing-lottery 30k ) . Thats when also the so called taxi driver showed up, and gave even wrong time-lines, which we now know from the picture-data, that he lied. It was a guessing lottery - and no one won. But there are still enough keyboard-wise people who think that the selfclaimed witnesses only can tell the truth. As we know now: even the dog blue was a lie. That dog never was with the girls, as we know from the fotos. But back then it was guessing-lottery... and the fotos which proved otherwise were still in possesion of the girls. Because the camera and smartphone was found 4 months later, who disproved the taxi-driver-lottery-gambler, and disproved the dog-blue-gambler , and many literally every ''witness''-gambler. Even when there was no hope to find the girls alive, Feliciano helped the police to find the remains of the girls. And he found a shoe of Lisanne with bones in it. He helped as much as he could. And people all over the world framing him as the villain. Just because without him there would even be a smaller chance to find the girls. He was the first and best chance besides Zineproc to find the girls, and/or the remains. It makes me angry, that Feliciano is threated like a criminal without any evidence. Its like a witchhunt. We are truly not better than middle-age times. For us reality always is: what we want to believe. Thats so sad.
The latest update on this case is that there is a witness who has fled to costa rica. It concerns a woman who had a relationship with a gang member from Boquete. persons who witnessed 'the possible gang related murder' of the girls have now all been murdered or died in suspicious circumstances . One of the main 'suspects' is Henry G, the stepson of the tour guide Feliciano G. given the circumstances, it remains quiet on this case because people are just too scared to talk.
La mamá de uno q aparece con ellas en las fotos ( osman) es la q dijo q Henrry( hijo de F) se puso a decir( estaba borracho) cómo las habían matado. La banda se lo llevó con disimulo y lo mato..esto está en los vídeos q compartí en este canal
People talk about the jungle in Panama as if it was the Amazon Rainforest, which is bigger than countries. Panama is as narrow country, from the "El Mirador" of the Pianista Trail, the distance, in straight line, to the city of Boquete, is only 5 kilometers and, to the other side, heading the atlantic ocean, there are only 25 kilometers. How in the world, someone keeps lost in a place so close to civilization, with several trails in the area, locals living in the forest, searching teams, 12 sniffer dogs, helicopters etc.??!!
Because they didn’t get lost. They either got lured or kidnapped and were most likely killed within the week. The locals know a lot more than they can say.
Yes, they were close to civilization and should have been spotted and rescued. They should be able to meet locals, hikers, tourists and farmers. They should also be able to see a house, a hut, a farm, a sign or something 🛖🏕🪧 I mean they were not there or have returned to Boquette and then something else sinister happened to them. There were eye witnesses seeing them returned and went into a red truck. I believe true .
See my reply above and/or my few short videos on them to help solve the case, the LOCALS KNOW ALL BUT are afraid to talk as it is gang infested down their and canables after the Merador!! At least take guns if you go in two's and don't go past the Merado or Continental Divide line, unless your local, didn't you read most videos by locals??? If your not with a guide "your fair game for the canables" The canabals thinks we are the stupid ones, don't be stupid when hiking places like this in 3rd World countries, the witnesses who saw K and L, know it was them, they were TALLER, even Kris was taller than locals, and she has stand out RED hair and L. was very TALL comparied to locals and retirees...!! You won't solve this and other crimes unless you study or live down their to know the hidden secrets and evil gangs, canibals that luke there!! They think we are nothing but free food and prey. That is savage country! They probably leave the older retirees alone as gangs don't want old people to kill, eat or S. A.!! Sorry to "enlighten" you of Panama and Costa Rica, etc.. Kris only had experience being in Peru with her MOM AND DAD AS SHAPERONES, SHE HAD NO IDEA OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO TRAVEL AND TWO STAND OUT ATTRACTIVE YOUNG WOMEN, THEY WERE LOOKED ON AS BATE!
1.you have to say that you would never do a day hike with not charging phone battery especially in a thrid world country you never been to and without a guild. 2. having got lost!! I know that without water for more then 3 days i'm dead so I wouldn't be that worried about the phone battery and trying to make it last over a week!. 3. If I made the first emergency call at 1639, I would be at least trying to call every 30 mins until say 2200 on that first night and also the second morning as soon as i wake up or it gets light, I would think that by say 8-9 am people would know that we had not returned home previous night and someone would raise the alarm to police ect... This is why soo many people suspect foul play in this case. whichever side of the case you think is right you can't explian this total lack of calls on first three days.
I believe they just wanted to try and get to the Mirador and back. No more than that. Once they accomplished that in good time, however, and feeling still fit and proud of themselves (judging by the photos) they spontaneously decided to go a bit further. My opinion is they didn't willingly and alone go beyond that stream pictured in 508. That would have been a nice cut off point to head back. You'll notice Kris is not pictured making the other side. Lisanne doesn't picture it from the other side either. Probably Lisanne just told Kris to get onto the rocks and pose then come back. They likely started back towards the Mirador, hence why no more pictures were taken as they had already taken pictures coming down. Then something happened shortly after. Whether they were taken or chased back across that stream and beyond or somewhere else is anyone's guess.
I think they were naive. Im dutch. You simply can't get lost there. Maybe they thought the path was easy and maybe it was. I think they were ill prepared but also foul play.
My theory is that they got lost at first but then somebody did find them and instead of helping them find their way back, they simply took the chance to rape and murder the girls or maybe they didn't even need to murder them but only hurt them enough for them to die of exposure. Later, when the search was at their peak, the perpetrators could have hidden the bodies and cut them in small pieces to scatter them around hoping animals would feed on them. 😢
Been thinking something similar for a while, and I hate the thought :( we know a german tourist was lost and then found AND RAPED by some of the men searching for her, subhuman fckers. She managed to scape and survive but yeah...
I pray this case gets solved. It's difficult to imagine that these girls simply got lost. It's more likely they were kidnapped and murdered. Just seeing those night time photos is like something out of a horror movie. Also you are simply not understanding the most critical information. The girls had planned to do volunteer work which they had specific dates where this was arranged before they left. Now obviously they would of double checked these arrangements before they left The Netherlands, so why did they say that they had the dates wrong?
I think it was the case that the school didnt stick to the agreement and had no use for them on the first week of the agreed-upon period. Afaik neither spoke Spanish, so how much use could they be to teach children?
Any normal person who’s lost in a jungle/ Forrest and knows their chance of being found alive is small, would’ve used those last moments/ photos on the camera and phones to leave messages for family, clues on the path. And peace of mind what happen to them. Whatever happen, they were not propane’s for and therefore all actions following were in a panic. I feel even in the results of injury, they would’ve more clearly tried to find a plan. Wait for help, make video messages, take pictures of locations. Etc. there is far too many un-thought out decisions that make me believe they were pressured into going deeper into Forrest and got lost/ hurt that way. Or were attacked/ held hostage until killed. Maybe even had gotten lost first too. That’s why all info lead to different out comes. 2 very smart girls in their right minds would’ve made 1 of many other smart choices that would’ve solved this quick if foul play wasn’t involved and they were simply jsut lost or hurt. That is jsut my opinion.
Nothing points to any 3rd party involvement. The night photos were only taken to illuminate the trees above them to create a beacon. They weren't moving, infact you can make a colleague of all the night photos clearly showing the only thing moving was the camera. I think I can explain all the unusual events. I can put together a simple explanation for how they naturally died. I don't believe there was any foul play. There is no evidence of it.
One big question I have! If there was no cover up or something wrong done on purpose, how could they search and not find them in so many days they survived? Is it logical? 11 days and nobody finds them? Locals or turists, people who know the area.
After 8 days with no or little food, and the stresses of being lost, the nighttime photo shooter could also be insane by that time, snapping away for no good reason.
Things deteriorate fast when you're lost in the jungle, not eating, scrambling over mud & rocks, tortured by fear, insects and injuries -- and perhaps also the girls got quite cold every night in their ridiculously unwise tank-tops and shorts. So I could see them either becoming virtually insane or making a few last spasmodic efforts to signal someone by lighting up the trees. Maybe they thought they heard, or dreamt they heard, rescuers or a helicopter. But I don't get the hair picture... Why such a weird close-up? Even for an insane person or someone barely alive, to me it makes no sense. It seems like such a shot could not be accidental. But what could the motive behind it have been?
"In life it's not which path you take, it's whose path you cross" (Wolf Creek 2) Frank van der Goot, a teamleader during searches by Panamanian and Dutch volunteers said:- "The area where this is supposed to have taken place, simply is not an area where you can get lost. Anyone who is suggesting the girls lost their way and claiming this to be an actual possibility, has simply never physically been on the trail itself." What has been suggested, especially by F, is that the girls far from straying off the trail kept going along it for some reason. 1:19:15 Well in the early hours in a rainstorm(first one of the season actually) would be the idea time to us flash photography and not be seen by any random person. The best way to escape justice is make it look like there was no crime, and for that you cannot leave any witnesses. Which entails committing a far more serious crime. The night photos show someone with clean hair, not at all greasy, and this was a week after she went missing and had access to shampoo. The ultimate r**e hack is liquidating the victim and then making her demise look like an accident. I think Kris was the target and kept for a week. That was a live Kris in the night photos; location is is most likely in the area behind F's ranch and near where Kris's shorts were found, so about two and a half hours walk from Alto Romero.. To me, if that was a face it was not the face of Lisanne but Kris with her low set projecting cheekbones and somewhat receding chin. Lisanne's remains suggest a jungle grave, she likely was in it by the 3rd.
Watch me resist everything in me not to close off the last part with that quote!!! 🔥 Thanks for this insight, I’m reading up on investigation from tomorrow - might ping you again here cuz by this point, one thing you don’t have to convince me of is that you’re some sort of detective and either deserve a medal or at least your own channel! 🙏🏼
When did van der Goot hike this path? Had the path been cleared and additional signs been placed since the women went missing but before his team went?
@@billmartins5545 Vab Der Goot is a forensic pathologist who was part of a Dutch search team that arrived at most a few months after the girls disappeared I think. He definitely was there before any substantial changes were made although It is true that Van Der Groot does not believe they were homicide victim, he thinks they slid into a deep ravine where took a long time to die. But it there was a drought when KK and KS disappeared and it ended a few days later so the main difference Van Der Groot may have been misled by is the mud that was there when he was on the trail
If Kris & Lisanne got lost & succumbed the entire tragedy can be chalked up to “prepare better.” BUT that’s not why millions of people worldwide are addicted to trying to understand this case. If the truth is what many of us believe: crime, then an entire country stands indicted and $7.5 billion per year is on the line
The village woman who found the backpack is Feliciano's coffee farm worker . She said what Feliciano instructed her to say. The backpack is given to her . Not found by her . Think about this , how big is the chance that she casually saw the backpack somewhere in the jungle ? Less than minimal chance and at the same time the professional and trained Dutch Rescue Team with dogs found nothing ? The Dutch girls can move , they should have met someone in eleven days . Foul play for sure.
Foul Play is such a stretch. "Why are the stripes on her shirt diagonal?" Because shirts bunch, even tight ones. "Why is there mud on her leg when they hadn't crossed a stream?" Because dirt can get wet from other means besides creeks, such as rain, which can leave the ground wet for several days depending on the soil. Close to 0% chance of glitch for 509? Where did you source that from? Same Juan who doesn't know about shirt bunching?
Thank you so much .been reading on this in out day night past 5 days across the RUclips platform. And l must say you have done the best amongst them all rest of the RUclipsrs. For once->So very detailed vlog time/days of their activities from 1st right up to 11th..prior to coming across this vlog of yours back forth murder /lost/murder But on listening to your vlog today now--> 1) they both were lost and died finally 2) Lisaane and Chris were together right till the very end ..3) end of 2 beautiful souls 4) if only the school hadn't denied them to start their work on 1st both them would be alive This my conclusion ..Cheers Keep up the good 👍 job your doing 👏...
If I am hearing this right ( 59:02 ) between the last call of day two and the first call of day three, the official confirmed information is that there was a full twenty two hours without an emergency call during which one of the girls' phone was switched on. Moreover on the day of the hike the very first emergency call, certainly made while the girls were still mobile and very far from any cable bridges, was followed by a 14 hour switch off of both phones, with no attempts to call obviously. But if the girls thought they were moving towards the signal tower and would be in range of the signal, why would they switch off their phones for 14 hours straight instead of walking for an hour then to switch on for a bit to try another call or just see if they had a signal, moving on then trying again. It doesn't make sense to completely switch off both phones for that long if they were on the move. Note that there was no switch on for a signal check at all until after 1pm on the morning of the second. Between 5pm on the 1st April and 9.30am on the 3rd of April (the last attempted emergency call) there were two periods amounting to a total 36 hours in which there was no call being attempted to anyone. And no attempted calls after the one on the the morning of the 3rd were made at all. Yet suddenly after that time there is a regular switch on check signal switch off twice a day routine. Then on the 11th the phone is not only switched off but replaced in the backpack which is fastened closed.
@@saywhatyouwant888 But the very first emergency call from each phone (single call from each girl's phone 12 minutes apart) was followed by a 14 hour switch off of both phones. So there is a pattern of 'going dark' from the begining. Furthermore, there was not any call from either phone after the 3rd, and if you say that is because Lisanne could only work her own phone and her phone had the battery run down; the battery was only run down because it had been left _on_ during the 22 hour no call gap between the 2nd and 3rd. It all stinks of the clandestine.
@@march3769 They are supposed to have lost their minds after a few days. Pertinently, there was one attempted emergency call from each phone at just before five in the afternoon on the day of the hike, and then there was a fourteen hour gap between the original attempted emergency calls, one from from each phone, and the next phone activity, which was one failed emergency call from each phone the following morning. Crucially, both the phones were both switched off one hour after the first emergency call attempt (one from each phone twelve minutes apart). Are we supposed to believe that after the failed emergency call neither made any retry, and both instead decided to be early to bed for their night lost in a strange jungle, and so in order to get a good nights sleep (and not be bothered by people calling them?) switched both their phones off at the same time and left them off for a whole _thirteen_ hours?
@@seancidy6008 none of it makes any sense really, okay so maybe they did lose their minds about 3 days or so in. But that very first day, first night and the second day they would not have lost it that soon. That call for emergency so early on , and then there are no serious attempts at calling, texting , something for help. I get it they wanted to save the battery , but jmo if it was me I would have made many many more attempts to reach anyone. Do you have a theory on this? What would make sense as to the phone situation?!
There is proof that the girls came back from the trail. It looks later in the day, according to the shadow and the rucksuck, carried by Kris instead of Lissane. The pictures on the top with the thumbs up are so eerie, it looks like they were taken by some guys that suggested this weird pose. The girls look uncomfortable.
Another thing is of mine. Is if they can tell the time of death or how long of death why is it not compared to the very last pics taken with the phone. It would help with everything
let's clarify that mine are all assumptions so things could have gone very differently I found this case about ten days ago on the internet on RUclips and it bothers me that these two girls who in my opinion were murdered do not have justice here in Italy there is a saying “THINKING BADLY ABOUT OTHERS MAKES SIN…” “…but often one guesses” often used by Giulio Andreotti and in this case there is nothing that leads me to think of an accident 1) Looking at photos 580 and 541 if you hadn't seen the rest of the photos you would have ever associated those photos inside a jungle (I think not) so who says those photos weren't made to make believe that kris and lisanne were there in the jungle (I'm not an expert but if some expert photographer can tell us if it's possible to make changes to the photo by changing the date and time it would be appreciated)!!! 2) what makes you think that the girls were stuck in the jungle, just the fact of having seen those photos taken from 1.30 to 4.10 hence the persistence of the authors to stay more hours in the jungle let's say that these photos had been taken in 10 minutes, you might have thought that someone had gone there ten minutes had taken those pictures and gone but making it last more hours was more believable that Lisanne and kris were lost and it would have had a different effect in the eyes of those who would have seen the photos later and maybe that's exactly what the authors wanted us to believe so hence the need to spend more hours in the jungle, so it was enough for them to spend half a night taking insignificant photos in the jungle, maybe even away from the pianist and mirador ,( because as far as I know this location has never been identified) putting 541 and 580 between them to make it look like Kris and Lisanne were there for a week in the jungle, injured, and missing while perhaps they were imprisoned elsewhere and perhaps even near this place!!! If it really happened, it would explain why no photos were taken between April 2nd and 7th and even after until 11am kris' cell phone was turned back on so it's assumed one of them was alive (but I think whoever turned it back on is an outsider, it would explain why some of the girls' remains were found far from the mirador (they were taken), it would explain the fact that the jungle searches were inconclusive!!!3 I also have my doubts about who made the emergency calls when we discovered that these calls were only made after the backpack was found and the phones analyzed so whoever made those calls knew there was no signal in fact 'the only time the signal was caught instead of trying again they switched off In a nutshell, the cell phone did the opposite of what two people who wanted to be found would have done!!! Ps not to mention the pin of the missing photo and other things that don't add up or like the mysterious deaths of local youths so I wonder how the Dutch government passed the official story of the accident an accident would have had less whys and more answers!!!
Was their camera capable of recording video? If so I was surprised they didn't leave a video message, especially Lisanne considering her diary and being homesick and missing her parents.
Yes it was. They took other videos on their Panama trip. There was still plenty of battery life left in the camera months later. All Lisanne would have to do is video a short message explaining what happened, instead of playing cryptic games with twigs and weird camera shots. Its pretty clear Lisanne didn't take those pictures.
@@lyndoncmp5751 I also think that those twigs, SOS sign, night photos, hair photo, all 911 and 112 calls ARE ALL STAGED. These young women were clearly seen have returned from the trail safely. It was impossible that if they could survive 11 days in the trail and not been found. Absolutely no proof that the night photos were taken by the Dutch girls/girl. Also, no proof that the phone calls were made by them. No proof that there was a dog. However, justice has already been done by the Panama Authority in a "secret way" Three members of the Bandida Gang have been "wiped out" plus the taxi driver whom, I believe, told the gang the whereabout of the girls. Feliciano did not directly involved in the crime but he knew exactly who did that and he assisted in the cover-up. I am very convinced that the Panama Authority knew what really happened 🔪
Hello Maja and everyone I have read and heard many theories about this case. yours is really well detailed and clear. which is what got me thinking. assuming it's a crime I wonder... in those 11 days that Kris and Lisanne (assuming they were in the jungle at least because they kept reaching out). Doesn't it seem unlikely to you that the third party was committing a crime while the emergency services were swarming. that third party must also have been aware of that search by then. it seems unlikely to me that they would not have been held hostage in the jungle, but somewhere else. because then they would simply not be in possession of the phones.
There was a German woman who disappeared in the jungle in Boquette in 2017, and she was discovered by the search & rescue. The search & rescue held her captive for three days raping her until she escaped them. The killer could've been part of the rescue team, pretending to look for them, and knowing exactly where they were looking, even directing them.
The area they were presumed lost is inhabited by a few hundred people, with a few settlements and a few dozen dwellings. The people have dogs, lights at night, and cooking smells. Only the Holendesas of all the missing, stayed missing! Hard to stay lost I think.
Thanks Jaime, are you based in Panama yourself? That is definitely something odd, as is for me personally how few of their body elements were found / how the rucksack hasn’t been found for weeks if this is the case. Are you leaning / convince there was foul play here?
@@MysterieswithMaja I live in Boquete even before the Holendesas disappeared. I don't have a theory, due to lack of good evidence, however them being lost scenario is very weak. I have tested my findings on my iPhone 4 like Kris had. BTW most of the "lost" area is not a jungle. The limited area above 5000ft is a different biome and jungle like, but is actually a cloud forest. Nobody lives there as it is too cold and dense, AFAIK. The Alto Romero area is the same biome as Boquete. Actually using the imprecise term jungle leads to very incorrect optics that don't apply here, eg; piranhas, sweltering heat, cannibals, incessant insects, drug cartels, etc.
@@NadaYoTengo thank you, that’s helpful! What part did you test on iphone4? One thing that I mentioned I dont fully understand is the sim pin, do you know if that’d have mattered here in terms of the second person accessing the phone?
@@NadaYoTengo hey Jaime, me again, have been watching a bunch of videos of people covering the trail , including Kremers family. Got a question - have you hiked it yourself? There are 2 wildly different opinions : that you can’t stray away from it or that it’s so easy to get lost because of the brush / fog / early twilight etc. what are your opinions if you have a personal experience? P.S. Puedes responderme en español si es más facil , podria entenderlo , hay muchos detalles que se han perdido en traducciones sobre este caso. En particular, durante las entrevistas con los testigos, los guias - has encontrado alguna vez un video en plan body language analyst sobre las entrevistas del documental El misterio de las holandesas por ejemplo? Los guias se comportan completamente diferente al responder en ingles comparando sus respuestas en español. Lo que puede ser por estar más comodos al responder en su idioma o tmb puede indicar decepcion. 😅 Que opinas sobre el sendero y que facil seria perderse despues del llegar al Mirador?
@@MysterieswithMaja Hola, Español es mi idioma segundo. Ingles es mejor. I hiked the Pianista with my amiga. She led the way, I just followed. So I can't say if it was easy to get lost. It appeared easy.
My understanding is the girls freedom of action ended at the creek with photo #508. That photo indicates a serious distraction and the fun is over. Missing #509 was of the approaching influence. The abductor was not hi-tech and was letting them use their cell thinking communication had to be verbal. They were "captured and loosely controlled for several days. I can't imagine the "end game".
I agree! Kris's expression looks so 'off' in that picture. I believe that the approacher knew the area well enough to know that they wouldn't have signal so wasn't worried about them having their phones.
Late night photos location needs to be discovered. It was either to ward off animals or alert night time search crews. I would like to see a schedule and locations were the rescue time operated.
If the one girl's phone was left on the entire first night they may have been using that to try to see with the flashlight or something. After the first night they realize how lost they were and we're more conservative with the other phone. I really think they just got lost maybe it got dark quickly and they lost the trail on the way back. They use the one girl's phone to try to find their path but failed to do so. They end up getting deeper and deeper into the jungle , by the fifth day I think the one girl passes away... Either way the girl with the backpack whichever one it was probably did fall at one of those bridges it seems like they did get a picture of it that one night. And then the river takes care of the rest. Keep in mind the phones were found in a Ziploc bag inside the backpack and the backpack was found in the river no matter what anyone else tells you. So whoever was still alive have used the phone and then put it away and then died. I think there's a flurry of nighttime pictures either due to a predator such as an animal or perhaps hallucinations. I do find it incredibly odd they never did a video goodbye or any more pictures of each other. The back of the head is probably just from her hitting her head on something and then they're checking it out. It's easy to overthink everything in this situation.
What if they didn’t realize that they got el mirador because of shot time to get there. And when they realize they are lost they couldn’t say if they pass for or if the didn’t go for the right rote?
Photo 580 doesn't tell us anything about Kris' location or condition. It makes no sense as a location marker for finding her body, because it doesn't mark the location at all. One foul play theory is that Kris' head is not attached to her body in this photo. It's so very carefully zoomed in to just show her hair, but not reveal anything of her face, neck, shoulders. What's special about her hair? Nothing to Europeans, but we know that some Panamanian men fetishised 'exotic' blonde women.
A possible reason that the pin was never entered again correctly, and an emergency call was not made, but other apps etc were accessed, is water damage. I recently had an iPhone that had water damage, and when I attempted to type in my pin, the wrong digital keys would be struck, but I could still turn it on and off with the analog control. The phone worked like normal again after putting it in a bag of rice and drying it out. Perhaps Kris’s phone worked when it was recovered, but had water damage during the days that it was not used to make calls or enter a pin. Just a thought
Did someone ever check the GPS location history data from the phones/maps? Even 2014 this was tracked in Google Maps when activated even when offline (GPS) is usually always there. Also some Apps and widgets might got GPS in background even without signal, E. G. weather widget and others. This MIGHT be in the logs. Also about the pictures: Sometimes I take 50 pictures of my GF in 20 seconds :)
I got stuck with all my different theories, so I took a step back, looking at the picture as a whole. The girls vacation was going well until the language school turned them down. Why could the school not find anything else for the girls to do? Surely there should have been some work needed. Anyway, that is when it all starts going sideways for them. I started to wonder who organized this trip, how did they found out about the volunteer positions? Was it an organized set up from the get-go? What disturbed me so much about the pictures on top of the trail is the excessive thumbs up thing they are doing. I get odd vibes from that. Also, no way on getting by the bleached bones. Hair is dry because they are in a cave, taking pictures looking up. When you turn some of the night pictures, it can make sense. There is a guy on RUclips (backpacking coach) who made an excellent video about that. I really thought you did an outstanding job on both parts, can't wait for the 3rd!!!!
Thank you so much, just writing it up and the thumbs up are included in it , more on bleached bones in the theories section - looking at the script in front of me, I believe I’ll split the investigation and theories apart and that you’ll have a part 4 😅
The school seems to have been thoroughgoing sketch not least because their house guide was F, who was advising a couple of naïve girls about the trails, despite the fact that he had a certain reputation. He was was quite possibly paying the school for bringing him all this young stuff. He spends almost all his money on his 'hobby', according to what Nina von Rönne heard from his wife.
I used to think the thumbs up were odd. But the two Dutch guys they met at Bocas del Toro were both pictured by them doing the thumbs up so it was probably just a homage to them. Perhaps they were going to send them the photos of their own thumbs up when they got back, which they sadly didn't.
I dont know much about voluntourism but i just cant see how two women who dont speak the language are going go be of any use to teach kids. Maybe they were offered cleaning jobs and refused? Probably not as i imagine they would have recorded it in their diaries. People need to stop looking for volunteering in a country where you dont speak the language, where you will only be for a few weeks. How anyone who is concerned with child safeguarding can be ok with a revolving door of strange adults working with children is beyond me.
Regarding picture #509, the interplay between the GPS tracking on the camera and the time zone demarcation issue (Costa Rican border) needs to be explored more. I recently heard a great explanation of how a pic can be either deleted or "overwritten." automatically because of an internal clock change. For #541, I believe what we're seeing is not a face or hair, but the flash reflecting off the large boulder with the twig collection on top.
Absolutely thrilling....about the phone activity... in that situation, knowing families, friends and myriam are very concerned about their missing... I strongly believe they would at least wrote whatsapp messages to them e.g. "we are ok, but lost the path". An asthma attack may have occured on the trail to change everything and theres more priority to 110 than contacting a family member, but during all the other days they did not even write or try a pending whatsapp? Seems very odd too me. I consider the girls have been seperated from the phones and somebody tried to get access to the pictures
Fourteen hours without any attempted emergency call between the last call of day one (April the 1st 2014) and the first call of day two (April the 2nd). 59:02 between the last call of day two and the first call of day three, there was a full twenty two hours without an emergency call. Give me strength!
@@MysterieswithMaja 59:00 spotters badge to Maja.There was a 14 hour period with no calls and a switch off, but then as you alone trenchantly point out, 22 hours without an attempted call (even though a phone was kept switched on). Therefore, a total of 36 hours without an emergency call by nine in the morning on the third, which was 42 hours after the first attempt. The is what covert operatives and police intel slang calls 'going dark' , deliberately not trying to make contact.
I also believe that an asthma attack did occur due to high altitute and less oxygenation in relation to stressful circumstances, anguish of being lost.
Hi Maja I’m back to watch all four parts again! You deliver info in an unbiased manner which is very helpful with this case as many have landed on their theories prior to making videos (and all the evidence) fit what they believe. I will be posting comments as I work through all 4 parts again… I think the change in settings on the iPhone just moments before dialing emergency is very indicative that the girls were still in possession of their phones at that point. I am also wondering if the data found on the phones would show if they used the flashlight function?? Maybe the Samsung on overnight meant they used flashlight and possibly were on the move? Also the pin removal to access control center would allow a quicker view of cell service, time, and I believe access to the flashlight if the phone had capability wouldn’t it? Just some thoughts on the phone activity. I’ll keep posting anything I find intriguing
I had same thoughts on the phone being on overnight , since they never kept it long but that night , was it to use the flashlight while traveling?! So many questions in this case, when I think it was all an accident then something don't make since ugh this one may never have all the full answers. I assume they would have been frightened but phone and camera activity well , it don't show much fear . I say that because it seems like way more calls would have been attempted to be made to emergency services . Some kind of texts messages to parents etc. I know if I was lost I would have been trying really hard to get a signal and call , text , something out. But they seemed to keep it together by powering the phone off only using it for a signal sparingly saving the battery. My phone would have been dead the very next day by trying to reach someone.
So when we are talking about this photo shop pics. Are we talking about pics taken off there phone or off other websites. Bcus i find it really hard to believe that these girls that are lost hurt and close yo death. Took the time to Photoshop any pictures. I say foul play bcus of how everything in the bag found are nice and neat and one girls foot was still in her sock and boot. Bcus they found 1 boot/shoe from each girl was found. But one had a foot in it that was still in the sock and it still had soft skin
@@larvin6910 btw I wanted to ping you back - I’ll be going on holiday after a case I am researching atm - but if you already by any chance have any research on Brandon’s case, you could send it my way and I can finalise it once back and cover the case? Was just thinking that you sound like you might have the inside knowledge - let me know if wrong 😅
@@MysterieswithMaja my only knowledge of the case is from RUclips videos I'm afraid. Trace evidence have an hour long video with good information about the case.
I would like someone to look and see when those last pics when your talking about the SOS pic and the timeline of the one phone that couldnt get the phone that was locked. Could we get a timline of those attempts and the last pictures. Bcus you talked about the phone locked before the SOS pic
A really thought provoking video. I have been wondering why someone wouldn't just have buried the girls and their belongings, then you pointed out how the missing photo couldn't have been deleted out there by the girls. I'm only halfway through this video so it may be suggested later but the only way I can make sense of this being foul play is if they escaped from an attacker. This would explain why they got lost and why their bodies and belongings weren't hidden or buried. Then the attacker could have been part of the rescue team and been in a position to be able to delete the missing photo and tamper with other evidence. Say also that the attacker took them up in the first place, he might have told them not to take any photos of him (but they managed to take one) and refused to take photos of the girls themselves hence the selfies. It would explain too how they used flash in the dark without alerting their abductor. Another thing - could Lisanne have been using the flash photos to locate Kris if she'd just fallen? I've seen them made into a collage of the same scene in another video. One thing's for sure, those 10 days must have been beyond horrendous and the last girl left had a very lonely death, it's heart wrenching.
1:02:14 The video of Kris's parents walking the trail with F, shows when Hans Kremers was thinking out loud about the girls having been in the paddocks, F interjected he had been to the entrance to the paddocks on the 3rd by _himself_ and saw no footprints in order to convince the parents that their daughter had not been in the paddocks. Less than 24 hours after Kris and Lisanne were reported missing and ten weeks before anyone else though it likely they had been behind the Pianista at all, he had correctly 'guessed', and what is more astounding been walking on the exact trail behind the Pianista that they had actually taken. Could be an educated guess given his knowledge of tourists and the area; yet when the police asked him why he alone had quickly surmised that KK and LS went behind the Pianista, which was initially thought unlikely, and only ten weeks later discovered to be correct, he said Eileen told him the girls had went behind the Pianista. However, Eileen said she told him no such thing and had not known that was where the girls had went anyway. Hardly the act of an innocent man and it was the grounds for his listing in the police file under the heading of 'suspects'. 1:06:09 I don't see what the search teams would have to do with a phone switch on. Kris and Lisanne did not have walkie talkies , just ordinary phones. They search and rescue teams were not bringing a signal transmitting tower with them. And these girls had voices and could scream, why not scream for help instead of ineffectually tinkering with phones on a silly schedule? They certainly regarding being 2on the move" if KK and LS could walk distances between the switch ons that would mean they were in open country and not deep jungle with overhead foliage that could muffle their voices. Also they would be able to see the sun and work out which direction they had to go in from remembering the suns position along the trail on the first day. Whoever made the first emergency call seems to have been able to see the sun and the mountain directly . An even more obvious way y to orientate themselves would be the incline, because they surely would realise they they had to ascend to get back up on the overlook / summit of the Pianista. They were never more than a few miles from the overlook because the river is supposed to have carried their bodies to where the remains were found after they had died upstream. Where the remains were is less than seven miles away.
Thank you for this, I mentioned the Eileen comment during the first parter but this is so insightful! Had to check your channel as I’m genuinely surprised you haven’t made a video on this topic yourself! 😱 I went into this unbiased and without knowing too many details exactly because I’d like to see where it’ll lead me to once I read up on the investigation and the possible cover up. Hope you stick around to fight through the timestamps next week too. 🔥
They possibly were spooked by something out there and were trying to catch it on camera desperately. Maybe they were being chased by an animal or some mischief makers or were plain hallucinating due to dehydration and starvation and were getting frightened at each and every sound in the rainforest. Hence the sudden burst of photographs between those 3 hours. Maybe they located a light source in the distance and made a desperate dash for it. The photograph of the back if Kris' head was probably shot accidentally by Lisanne in that frenzy while running as you can see her hair all over the place just as would happen when someone is running. Kris' I phone was probably not in her possession after the 5th. May be the girls were accosted by some shady individuals who confiscated their phones at that very moment but they somehow managed to escape from them later with their camera. This would explain why they couldn't enter correct pins (because they weren't the ones doing it) and the fact that the I phone was switched on way later on the 11th and that too for an hour by someone possible trying to meticulously gain access to the phone data. Again just my guess.
Off trail travel in 3rd world countries is tricky. Topo maps are treated as military secrets, not available. You should carry a hand held GPS like a Garmin, and mark waypoints as you travel.
17:00 ish: (speculation) -the pictures with smiles are innocent and legit. -the pictures without smiles are taken after someone encounters them -this person may or may not be Guide F and or that young man who was found dead -they try to pretend they aren't scared, he pretends he's not a threat, both parties fail but the charade goes on for 3 hours past picture 508 -this man is captures on picture 509, this picture breaks the charade and violence ensues, man steals camera/memory card, perhaps entire backpack -lisannes foot is broken in this encounter, but both girls escape, perhaps more injuries are sustained -lisanne is more physically fit than kris, at some point on day 5 the man/men catch up -malnourished and sleep deprived, kris is captured. this could have occurred near where her shorts were found, lisanne escapes again, running on swollen knees and a broken foot -lisanne finds refuge at the location of the night phots, frantically calls 911, in and out of consciousness -she hears or thinks she hears helicopters, or knows she's dying and begins frantically sending flashes out into the sky, her only form of communication (the photo of kris' head is hard to explain with this theory so maybe it's coming off the rails) Both girls perish, their belongings are collected by the man/men, their bodies are collected, carried by cows to hide and wait for the reward
What proof do we have that the girls booked a tour with Feliciano for the 2nd? Feliciano said he never even spoke to them before, so how can they have booked a tour with him?
Like dide said. If they never made it to the river how did there backpack make into the river with nothing messed up and still nicely folded in the bag and how was 1 of each girls shoes found next together and 1 had a foot still in it. Plus some pics that was deleted that would have been taken when they was dead im guessing. Bcus you never gave a time line of when they died according to the timenof death and the last pics taken or who tried to get into there phone. Foul play comes from a foot still in side a shoe and another from the other girl found next to it. You just didnt put 2&2 together. The real question is still what happened and WHO did it
I don't think, Lisanne made the Fotos to remember where Kris died. Why wouldn't she wait till daylight to take better pictures? For me, there are only two possibilities: Alert the rescue Teams or Kris died in that very moment and Lisanne totaly freaked out and liked to "share the moment with the World." .....By the way: In my opinion The foto of Kris head is the Front. It's pitch Black night. Lisanne takes Fotos, but Kris can't see her. So she layed over Lisanne to Look in the direction of the camera. Why do I think so. Because for me the hair is hanging not laying. But who knows.
At 11:00 Jeremy Kryt, writing THE article that put this story on the map (Daily Beast, 2019)stated in no uncertain terms that the Kremers & Froons opted to keep a substantial number of pictures (from all 3 devices) private. So far your reminding of this is one of the most salient points of the entire case. Folks? Does everyone get what this means? It means jaw-dropping images, heart wrenching images, images that mic-drop this case likely exist but are deemed inappropriate for the general public (per the families). And it is what it is.
I would never leave the city centre or knowing I would not have where to charge my phone on 50% ever... that was the first mistake.. and then how those phones were operational for 11 days? it is beyond me.
They weren't. Lisanne's phone died after two days. They kept Kris' phone alive by only switching it on at certain times in the day. No great mystery. Did you not listen to this podcast?
First: thank you for this very detailed series (I just saw that there is a first part)! Very good documentation. What I don’t get is: I don’t understand, why the girls are so upset about the Fakt, that their plans were not going as they wished? That’s a fact that can happen. Everyday, every time in life. It’s nothing to be so angry or sad about. They just had to start over a little bit later. That’s all. Maybe frustrating, yes, but nothing to be worry about that much in my opinion. What I don’t get with my rational mind is the fact that so many people think about foul play… okay, it might be, but… just why? Why would two tourists be worth such a big effort? In a Jungle, it would be easy to get rid of the girls and the bodies after killing them. Why bleaching the bones, why removing this one picture by computer? Why all of that? I work with people who did crimes like that here in Germany. I work with people on probation and when they are out of prison after their crimes for rehabilitation. None of the clients I work with would do so much effort, especially not in the jungle of Panama. It’s possible that someone killed them. But why all this effort? Bleaching bones, manipulating the camera, the phones, the pictures at night in the Rain… doesn’t make sense to me at all, to cover or hide a crime. It could be done easier. That’s my opinion with many years of working with people who did things like this… And I heard much. Sadly. I also remember, at the age of early 20, me and my friends made many pictures within a few seconds, just in case one wasn’t as good, so we could choose the best picture later. It’s not a mystery to take a few pictures in a row within a few seconds, especially when you are young. In 2014, people didn’t take that effort into pictures as today, with Instagram and all the selfie stuff going on, while people are searching for the best place and best lighting to have a really great shot. We made a few pictures instead. Things have changed since 2014. Also, I don’t get why someone would photoshop the pictures. The scenario, someone followed the girls or had the plan to rape an kill them, should keep the backpack, the corpses, the camera and their phones. He or they wanted to keep the dead bodies just to bleach random bones and bring them on different places in the jungle, place the backpack near the river to be found by a woman months later? They or he / she folded the shorts of one girl, placed it on a rock near this awkward bridge? Should take the camera to shot this weird pictures at night while it’s raining just to fool people and photoshop the pictures and remove one of them, just to hide evidence?? It would be much easier to get rid of the girls belongings in a village placed in the jungle. Much easier to get rid of the girls bodies while nature is doing it’s thing so that no evidence such as fingerprints or dna is left on the bones or bodies. Why this effort? As I said, I never heard a story like that from someone, who committed a crime like that, while I am working with people for rehabilitation. So, I don’t get it… the pictures which should actually show, that Lisannes neck and so on are edited.. in my opinion, you can’t even compare them. The angle of her face and head is different. The picture of her sitting in Bouquete and standing at the summit ist different. I don’t see any evidence for editing, sorry. It’s just not comparable. Both girls hadn’t enough water or food taken with them for a trip like that. Especially for this kind of temperatures. Maybe they didn’t know better, but you need way more water, even for a short trip, because you never know what’s happening during a trip, even on a trail like the one the girls wanted to take. They tried to call for emergency so many times, it is possible to get lost, even on a regular trail. I had this case by myself with a friend in the wintertime in a forest in Germany. We got lost for several hours and came out at night, 5 hours away from were we lived during holidays, just by taking one path wrong. Nobody believed us at first, cause everybody was sure, there is no way to get lost in the woods at all. But we did. If you are out of wate, it is hot, no food, no change to call emergency services, one girl is hurt (or both), you can panic. Maybe this happened. Why the hell would someone photoshop bracelets? It, sadly, could be this easy. At least a part of their missing. Maybe, there were other people involved. But I don’t believe, that this was the case the whole time. I don’t believe that the one or the many who maybe were involved took this much effort, just to hide evidence. I apologize for my English, I’m from Germany and English Isn’t not my mother tongue (obviously),
Lemme try address everything through my shift in different comms: the first one I mentioned as a potential reason for them not to wait to go on a hike with a tour guide despite being warned against it, suddenly a ton of free time opening up, could’ve been the thought process. In part 1, I really tried to understand the psychology behind these girls, who they are to avoid reducing them to their belongings and remains 🥲
The second point is one of my biggest contentions too. Why leave any evidence that can potentially lead to you or your gang if organized crime. I’ve just finalized part 4, I know I lied 😅 And still the evidence of the remains can be the biggest pointer towards foul play. But the logic and the digital data defies it. Thanks for the insight lol thought you might’ve been behind some crimes there for a second 😂
Thanks for the point on the pics - I thought I was the only crazy one but nop, just the 90s kid 😁 Especially using the camera for selfies, oh the times before selfie was even a term 😅
The bit on the shorts / disposing of the evidence I’ll touch upon more in parts 3 and 4. Shorts were apparently found wet and not folded, with some holes in them. And the only reason : reward. For the parents to stop searching as the girl would be pronounced dead . But by default that would discard a bunch of theories, and would incriminate only the people that would’ve been in the know of the searches , reward etc. just like everything else can be seen both ways 🥵
Thanks for that insight on getting lost - I’ll mention in that part of the theories that they might not have backtracked / might’ve went into a bush to pee / there are other options apart from them not following a path. Your English is perfect, I mean just listen to mine and that strong Borat like accent 😅 and thank you so much for commenting and sticking around 🤩
Eu jamais vô na ideia de ninguém de ir num lugar daquele eu vi um vídeo de um rapaz fazendo essa trilha até o memorial das meninas lugar sombrio escuro pesado e perigoso e muito tempo de caminhada e pra quem não tem experiência se perde do nada
You state as fact that they were in the jungle for 11 days. I don't think you can assert this as anything other than a conjecture, albeit a plausible one.
Love your analysis and just finished part one. A French guy did a video of him hiking the trail in the rain and ive begun to think the girls really might have gotten lost. Please watch this video.
But he said its near impossible to get lost or fall. Kris and Lisanne did it in perfectly dry weather, at the end of a drought. There is no real place you can get lost unless you intentionally go off trail. They weren't dressed for that, did not go off trail in any of the other pictures and would surely have taken some snaps of the intriguing forest off trail. They took pictures of basically everywhere else that was interesting.
They might have gotten lost??? That area have several trails, streams, people living in the bush... in addition to that, there were a lot of people looking for them, twelve sniffer dogs, helicopters and, even so, during all these days, they just stayed there, disoriented, taking night photos, turning the phone on and off??? Oh, come on...
Hello. I told about this case to my grandfather. He is a judge, he has got experience 60 years . He said that directly' İt was an not ancient, it was a murder. And girls were not in the forest. Someone took them and deliveried to an other place. They did everything to these girls and after killed girls. The girls did not take photos. The killer or killers wanted to confuse of people. ' As you know Central and South America countries have got the highest crime rate in the world. They sell narcotic to a lot of places . Also they send narcotic to Holland too. May be a narcotic mafia killed these girls. And Panamanian authorities could not explain the truth to the world because they do not want to lose tourism's income. Just I could not understand some things, why these girls went to Panama for learn Spanish? Because they could go to any course in Spain too, it is near to Holland and safe place. Also the girls had Dutch friends in Panama. How the girls could meet these Dutch boys? Their families known it was not an ancient, and they did not trust already . But most likely Panama threated them . And the families stopped to search this case . We can write a novel about this case . Finally I want to say that, Central and South America countries are very dangerous. And life of human is very cheap there. Please just go to safe countries,like Portugal, Italy, Turkey, Sweden, Qatar etc. May God bless these girls ,and they rest in peace.
Feliciano is the only one smart enough to stage those photos at the end. That would require him to drag kris kremers dead or alive into the forest for 3 hrs. There's no way some average criminal is going to have that mentality to an abduction ond/or rape. They would never think of it
I dont think that one thing points to foul play. I think Kris passed away first, and Lissanne took her phone and tried to get into it but didn't know or couldn't remember a password.
I think that once they reached the summit, they decided to go beyond in their quest to see the waterfall and the river. In doing so, got lost .. and the inevitable events that followed. The backpack was found in alta Romero on the other side of the ol Pianista in Boquete, same with their remains. I read that the waters beyond the summit flows into the east. And water from the summit flows to the west. On the foul play scenario , I read they were abducted either on the pianista trail or upon going down from the trail. Not so..The abductor wont leave any evidence like the backpack. The other side of the summit going to the river is very difficult and dangerous, difficult and dangerous also to any abductor.. They went beyond the summit as evidenced by a photo, and got lost and walked ahead in hope to find help. .
"The abductor wont leave any evidence like the backpack". Which evidence? The backpack is not an evidence for the lost theory. It is just the opposite. It is a strong hint for foul play. It was found at a place where it was not seen the days before. The content (mobiles...) was in proper condition (transported by the river?) and the electronic devices were not damaged. BUT: An important pic, pic 509, was missing in the camera and it was confirmed that the only possibility to delete this (because there is no gap in the memory) was either with a PC or directly after taking the pic with the camera before taking a new one. And as the girls NEVER deleted pics guess what is more probable...The mobiles have also been used with wrong pin codes...but ONLY after several days. The reason why the backpack was placed was to stop the ongoing search of the family and fool the police and public. It is naive to assume killers are not intelligent. By the way: an important thing was NOT found in the backpack...the key of the girls room. Tourguide F. mentioned in one of his first interviews, when he entered the girls room the next day (!), he saw the girls mobile there....F. also seems to be the strongest supporter of the "lost" theory, apart from the corrupt police fools.
I agree with you. People who still believe in the lost theory insist that the people involved would not leave the electronic devices because there may be compromising material. But, the fact that the 509 photo was removed from the camera shows that the people who perpetuated the crime ensured that they cannot identify them.@@peterdoring7521
@@larvin6910 Look at the video her parents took when they walked the trial. A jungle is dangerous with wild animals and indigenous plants etc. This looks more like a forest/farm vibe, open fields and cattle along the route, some parts are thicker with bush than others, but like ifnthe cattle can travel on the trial without being attacked by other animals, surely it would be the same with humans.
Io credo siano state rapite e uccise ..per quanto riguarda la foto dei capelli di Kris in uno dei tanti video che ho visto si vede un mento(credo di Lisanne)quindi la foto non è stata scattata da loro
@@MysterieswithMaja Resulta muy sospechoso el estado de los restos de las muchachas. The bleaching of the bones was consistent in the entire surface of the bones, if they were naturally bleached (which is impossible since they will have to be exposed to the sun for a very LONG time and given the conditions of the area and the clouds, not possible), there would be shades, only the area facing the sun would show bleaching effect. I discover this case a couple of days ago and made me very sad so I started watching many videos and found yours. I am sure Sherlock Holmes would have hired you :) Oh, and I don't get me started on the backpack, that was planted, it and its content were almost pristine, somebody planted it there and it was kept indoors since the girls disappeared, no way it could show up in that clean state after days of being exposed to the elements in that environment. I can't really eliminate the theory of authorities covering this up either, the investigation went wrong from the beginning. I am almost positive that somebody that they met in the way to the trail followed them (maybe one of the drivers or folks they met on the way).
Am sure there is a killer was spotting them or forcing them to go to specific trail before get their organs ask yourself why the cut in her leg is perfectly shaped as it's still in the shoe as a remain ?!! Try connect dots all together including the picture I want you to focus on of dark images simply 😊
1:43:51 At a museum in Peru, there are some mummies with extremely long hair and nails... The guides said that they kept growing after the individuals had died and that at some point this growth stopped 🤷🏻♀️
Taking a couple of naïve women from one of the safest countries on Earth by surprise in the middle of nowhere would hardly require a conspiracy. Two men with local knowledge surely may have managed it all be themselves. 31:18 While "they might not have know that they no longer had phone reception", a guide who is the acknowledged expert on that trail _would_ such as the guide who met them at the language school the day before they disappeared while hiking alone down a path that is part of the way to his farm. Ten week later who should find their remains relatively close to his his farm but the aforementioned fellow Kris and Lisanne had met at the language school the day before they disappeared while hiking alone down a path that is part of the way to his farm, which he had tried to get them to take a tour to and stay the night at. Small world! This remote ranch is a 16 hours hike from photo 508 and the paths. Presumably the distance one might have to cover to get near there while staying off the paths would be much greater. Lisanne had shin splints from walking a long distance in short time with hands tied bound behind back across rough terrain after nightfall perhaps. The streambed is the only feasible way to get off that trail, and the downslope would be easier 49:11 The down slope of the stream in photo 508 happens to include an area in which when viewing the sun it was disappearing behind the mountain when that first attempted emergency call was made. What could explain the signal having stayed the same for a few hours subsequent to around the time when they reached the stream seen in photo 508? To my mind KK and LS surely hadn't of their own free will stopped virtually on the trail for almost three hours, nor had anyone detained them there. I think that they got kidnapped off of the trail and taken away from it on a route perpendicular to the trail. Namely, along the draw of the stream photo 508 that crosses the trail. Once in an isolated spot safe from random people going about their business on the trail and general area, the perps waited for the sun to go in and local people to have finished work and go home. Perps in familiarizing themselves with the phones could ask what emergency number KK and LS would call if allowed to. The perps knew that no call could get through,. At this point KK and LS would not expect their lives would be ended; they could hardly have realized what deception the perpetrators had in mind to make the attempts to make an emergency call on the phone serve.
Thanks Sean, this is the most eloquent comment with some solid theories! So you believe that what I thought was the two of them figuring out a game plan is someone else / possibly Feliciano making sure that’s exactly what it looks like and no one suspects foul play? A quick question - do you have a theory on photo 509? Thanks for this, it’s exactly what I wanted, for someone to paint a sequence of events that I don’t see (yet) 😊
Oh and also, what do you think the purpose would have been ? Just to kill them or organ trafficking / something else? Something I’ll address in part 3 and what always screamed at me is how few remains / elements of their bodies were found. So in my mind so far, without having researched the investigation deets, I can see how their organs might have been harvested. But that I’d admit doesn’t add up / flow as a story if they haven’t met foul play before their death as you mentioned.
@@MysterieswithMaja I doubt the perpetrators would have dared risk such a deletion of 509 withstanding professional forensic examiners' abilities to bring it back, and so they would have never left the camera if they had ever been incriminated by a photo on it. They knew it was going to be gone over by experts by that point ten weeks later, even if the intensity of the the search and investigating had initially surprised them. I think it significant that F never complained he was being framed and kept on making the finds and so relatively close to his ranch; incredibly successfully I might add. Why would he not think he was being framed and stop while drawing attention to all these things being planted to implicate him?
@@MysterieswithMaja Sexual. When Nina von Rönne, who has just wrote a book about living for a few months on F's ranch met F in Boquete in 2015 she thought he was a very nice man, who was offering an idyllic location for her green lifestyle. But when she was lulled into going to live their with a friend, she saw a very different side to him. This is almost certainly something similar to what happened to Kris and Lisanne. He is not stupid enough to have his own clients disappear on a trip with him, but when he saw them on that part of the trail, he understood he had his chance. As for von Rönne, any man might be tempted to make advances and Panama is unenlightened, so obtuse approaches would not be surprising; I don't think that part of her book is all that incriminating. However, Nina said he secretly killed her pet dog then played the innocent.
@@seancidy6008 thanks for this insight into the potential motives too, Sean, you’re owning the comment section at the moment and offering so many avenues for me to look into for part 3 - I am here for it all and extremely thankful! ❤️🔥
The part I wanna know is how did that backpack get there everything else could just be them getting into trouble on a monkey bridge and one of them not being able to move while the other one went to look for help would explain the wrong pin in the phone and why they where found at different spots. I think maybe that one got hurt was immobile and this is when they took those weird flash pics in the dark the one girl not wanting to leave the hurt girl alone in the dark while hurt stayed the night with her when she woke up maybe she found friend had passed away and this sent her into shock running with alone and trying to use a phone she doesn't have the pin for while going the wrong way.
Jesseeee, you returned ❤️🔥 Thanks for sharing your theories! It’s something that flows as a theory to me too! But in part 3, I’ll also have to consider that the girls did take a ride from a stranger plus a few cab rides , so it would be a possibility that if they thought they trusted a person, that they might’ve followed them / someone could’ve overpowered them. I think I’ll need to write it up as if it were a case making it to court lol and then just argue by myself and see what theory holds more ground. 🙏🏼
@@MysterieswithMaja what do you think after all these infos and theories etccc ?! still some people keep saying how murderers leave back bag has money and devices ...my answer is might those murderers selling organs of humans so for them some devices and little money nothing that's my effort for this weird obscure case simply 😊
what amazes me is? Lisanne 11 days in hell her friend badly injured, then died. she puts everything the phone the camera. back in the rucksack, zips it up and dies.?, why didn't she go back along the trail. Looking for help, she must have been injured., why didn't the searchers find them. how Farr did they go along the track. ?
Never heard of it - I will look into it, it looks sketchy just from the brief Google search. Thanks for the recommendations and such kind words as always, Larvin 😘
@@MysterieswithMaja am re watching as I'm going through my obsessed stage with this case. I've noticed that in each photo the back pack keeps being switched. One min lisanne has it and the next kris. I've had a thought. Its strange that only one emergency call was attempted at first. Do you think it started to get dark and they didn't expect it to get dark so early so called for help but wasn't completely in panick mode. So just accepted their fait that they was going to be camping out there one night. Then the next day when they still couldn't get home that's when the other emergency calls were made. 🤪Me again haha
As for the bracelets , arw those hair ties ? Because i noticed that in the pic showing bracelets hair is down, pic of no bracelets her hair is now pulled back in a pony tail so were those hair ties doe the boyh girls hair, i just seen it in the pics you showed i haven't looked at the pics them selves since this is the first i heard someone mention bracelets.
In One of the pictures of Kris on the summit it looks like she is bending very far forward, like not standing up straight. You wouldn't be able to bend that far forward without falling.
why not ring the place where they were staying. do you no your best friends' number? the phone is like a diary. private, photos to boyfriend texes she would of give it to her. but she died. i am Shure of that.
I think it is a mistake to assume who was operating the phones or the camera. Both were covered with multiple fingerprints, breaking the chain of custody. Even NFI cannot verify the contents or the operator/s. FYI, anybody can easily append emergency call attempts to the user accessible recents log without a passcode.
These girls were inveterate text addicts. No texts or faking of texts, so the perpetrators were really not all that sophisticated. Kris and Lisanne walked into a no reception area which is exactly where a lost deception to cover up a double homicide (itself to cover up r***s) could work. Anyone might have been operating the phones, but it is a mistake to not try and decide who are the most _likely_ persons to have actually been operating them. I think we all can guess what sort of person would the idea of lost tourists would most easily occur to?
The phones were in the possession of the abductors by this time .Either the girls were dead, or not cooperating with the alleged rapists .Unfortunately I think the bandits were just trying to get a signal to use the phones without success .I think ,ruminating on it that the girls were dead but their belongings still in possession of the bandits .Cell phones ,even stolen ones do have a monetary value in these depressed areas..To eviscerate and dismember the bodies like they have seemed to have done ,just ref,acts the violent and lawless society prevalent there .Those girls just walked into the middle of it.I suspect many of the local people know what happened but probable threats ,and the fear of joining the girls in a lonely grave ,prevented tongues wagging .!
The bracelets are hair bands and you see them on Lisanne's arm when she's got her hair open. While in pictures with closed hair, you don't see them on her wrist. Their camera is not about to die and in that case it would make much more sense to record a little video or picture of themselves instead of taking nearly 100 pics of the sky. And sry, if they'd have their rucksack, why not eat the stuff they had in it?
Why do u have little numbers of subscribers for this great effort ?! Try reduce the time of episode or video and make smart intros check big channels of crimes profilers and copy their ideas 💡💡💡
It is very easy to forget that Lisanne and Kris arrived in Panana on 15th March, arrived in Boquete in the afternoon 29th March, and disappeared only 3 days later in the afteroon 1st April. The conspiracy theorists talk as if they'd been in Boquete for months getting to know people and being being targeted for sinister puposes. Just over two weeks after arriving in Panama they dissapeared, within four weeks of arriving in Panama they were dead. With regards to the location of the night time photos and how they got to that location, I don't think we'll ever know. The location looks like it might have been at the bottom of a cliff, possibly near a river. Lisanne and Kris might have fallen down that cliff and Lisanne might have broken her matatarsal bones in the fall as the remains of her foot had broken bones. What we do know is that after choosing to hike off trail they became lost, and that is a key point. They didn't dissapear on the Pianista trail but after they had hiked off it. Photographic evidence proves this. Evidence of their phone usage also proves that they looked at Google Maps while on the Mirador summit so we can confidently speculate that they possibly chose to try amd find a natural feature such as a waterfall or stream or river. We can only speculate after they went off trail. I think that at some point they tried to turn around to find their way back to the Mirador summit but due to disorientation because they possibly followed cattle tracks and tracks made by flowing water during the wet seasons they became completely lost and realised that even if they could somehow find their way back that they couldn't make to the Mirador summit before night fall, (let alone decend down the other side to town), and started to panic, which is when the first emergency calls are made. The first night must have been extremely frightening. I suspect they huddled and kept quiet; the night time jungle noises, the drop in temperature, and fear must have been terrible. Personaly, the next day, as soon as it was possible to see, I would have walked up hill. No tracks? No problem - I'd have fought my way through and kept going up hill until I got a signal or reached the top. Why these two intelligent women didn't do that, we'll never know. Perhaps Lisanne was too badly injured (foot), so it was easier to go down hill? Or they followed a river/stream down hill hoping it would lead to people/a settlement? There are likely to be people/settlements/civilisation lower down than higher up and it is a basic survival tip to head down hill/down stream. Something that's never mentioned is that the Netherlands is completeky flat and as they were from the Netherlands, Panama's hilly mountainous country with thick jungle/forest could have cometely disorientated/confused them. You might also find this info' graphic interesting. If correct, (and it might not be), I've always felt it might provide a clue for the reasons behind the night time photos. If acurate it shows that the Servicio Nacional de Fronteras (Senafront) Special Forces might have been in the jungle at night looking for Lisanne and Kris using lights and loud speakers, unfortunately, we dont know what nights but if it was in the early hours of the 8th April, that's the answer to the camera flash question. www.allmystery.de/i/t7d40d0d00_ibioblucptypqw.png
💔💔💔. There were more photos taken that were not released by the families due to the sad nature of the girls. I think seeing those pics would shed light on what really happened to the ladies. They can’t be worse than what I visualize in my own mine. CRIME CATCH 👁👁💦 ⭐️STRAIGHT OUTTA TEXAS
@@دكتورةسوسن-ق2ص..there is an interview with Kris's father talking about the unseen photos, but he does say they don't offer anymore insight in to what happened.
The thing that makes me lean more towards the 3rd party theory is the charge on their cell phones. Phones in 2014 didnt hold there charge for all that long so I have a hard time believing either one of those phones could last 11days without being put on a charger at some point , especially since the phones were at 50% when they started and turning them off and on over and over again uses up alot of charge from the phones. My phone now got a very good battery life but it wouldnt last almost 2 weeks even if i started with 100%... its one question that really bothers me
Most of the elements can be explained in a simple way, no need for extraordinary explanations. Since one year ago there are new elements (Romain's videos, research on the vegetation in the photos, virtual reconstructions of the night place, experiments with the same camera model etc) ; they most probably fell accidentally somewhere between the mirador and the 508 photo location, while oing back towards Boquete
I'm reading accross the RUclips platform going in circles 🔵 lost succumbed but some things just don't add up. 5 people dying within span of a year all linked to the case.taxi driver drowned face down in 4" of water 💧 !!!!!! 2) lost people in the jungle always gravitate towards /near water streams Couldn't the search party helicopters searched those areas more closely . !!!!!!!!!!????????!
Youre way behind in this case, leaving unexplored the more nuanced details of their psychological states, their ¨friendship¨, their regret of going to Boquete and a long list of other things that 98% of youtubers dont even know about.
Disagree about river story cause I guess there is something weird in those 90 dark pictures you could focus much in every image and gonna leave that as opened mystery until you give me the answer by yourself
Frist thing there is so much water in the area you could drown,they would not be thirsty,second,if the the serchers said they were not in the area they were not there..trust me
So would you drink from any water source given to you (puddles, pools, rivers etc)? My question regarding water is though that why wasn't there an analysis of the water bottle? Did it have any water or sediment at the time of the finding at all?
First, thank you so much for all your work in doing this research and bringing us all these details. I don't see any evidence of photoshop. Don't see a dog. Nonsense. The camera & missing photo. If I understand correctly, it is being posited that there *should* be a gap on the SD card. And there isn't. And this proves that it was deleted by external pc software? Firstly, how did "Chris" get his hands on the SD card to check for gaps? Secondly, having no gap points to exactly the opposite - the picture was deleted before the next one was taken, thus the space was re-allocated before the next photo was taken - no gap left because that free space was taken up by the next picture. However, this is all down to the way that the camera and SD card handles file storage, deletion and reallocation of storage space. I'm not convinced that "Chris" has "proven" anything. I don't believe that they reached and crossed any monkey bridges. They would definitely have taken photos of the bridges if they had reached them safely. By 4:39 they were obviously in trouble. I think they had turned back to go home some time before this, probably by 4pm - as darkness would fall at 6:39 and they would need to get back to civilisation before that. I believe they were on their way back and had an encounter with someone who may have been following them - stalking them perhaps? Shortly after this, I believe they were both being held somewhere. They had limited access to their phones, and needed to keep trying the emergency services for help. They had windows of opportunity for this twice a day. Kris removes her pin so that she can check for a signal and dial out as quickly as possible. 8th - all the night photos - this is probably the night that the girls died. Certainly Kris. I think the camera was not in the possession of the girls by this time. I believe the last photo of Kris is of the front of her head, at a 3/4 angle with her hair completely covering her face. She's deceased. There's no reason for Lisanne to take this photo. I believe Lisanne had been dead for some time when this last photo was taken. It was taken by the abducter/murderer who was obsessed by the colour and texture of her hair. Her hair is dry and shiny because she hasn't been wandering about outdoors for 8 days - she has been indoors as a captive until this evening. Presumably with access to facilities to wash her hair. By the time the photo was taken, Kris may have been dead for some time - her face might have been covered by her hair because her murderer didn't want to look at it. The girls were thrown from a high place into a ravine/river postmortem. Beautiful girls. Terrible story. RIP. So that's my theory! So far! Thanks again for your hard work. :)
Whole 15secs shorter than the last week’s vid , friends 😅 This is the one where I need all of my Hercule Poirots, Sherlock Holmes’ and Miss Marples! What are your theories on the 11 days? 🕵🏻♀️
Organ trafficking. I think they were set up back in Holland. Its definately a set-up, and I think its organ harvesting. I´ll explain later.
The girls committed a murder behind the Pianista, that is why they behaved like fugitives.
@@seancidy6008 🤡
@@maxmaxs9608 correct sir. Think they were set up,the whole time.
@@maxmaxs9608 that's alot of effort. Plus if was Kris idea to go to Panama
Obviously it doesn't make any sense why these two girls would go off the trail and not turn around at the summit, especially considering how poorly equipped they were for the "indigenous" trail (very little water, no proper apparel, no machete, no guide etc.) Also if they got lost, wouldn't they have realized it much much earlier? Why would they place the first emergency call so late? Why would they wait for hours, way beyond the point of no return (sunset) to place an emergency call? Wouldn't you panick much earlier, knowing that you won't be able to make it back safely once the sun sets? Also since the girls documented about everything how come there are no more pictures of the girls past day 1? And the most damning evidence is the one deleted picture. If they were really fighting for survival, why would they waste time deleting pictures after the fact? My theory is the girls were lured off trail by someone they trusted and thus only realized way too late (a couple of hours later) in what predicament they actually were. I presume the girls met their grizzly demise much early on, that is why there are no messages, no pictures of them past day 1. It seems quite obvious that the tour guide Feliciano would clearly appear as a prime culprit since he had intimate knowledge of the surroundings as well as being known to the girls prior and also conveniently owning a farm/house in the vicinity of the trail and he was also one of the few people who knew exactly where the girls were headed.
Well if you consider the mud in the few pics says to me they slid down a hill that they couldn't get back up trying to explore the area.thats why there is mud on her. And at that point they was lost and started making emergency calls. And at some point ran into foul play. I'm not sure how things in the only bag found was folded nice and neat if lost in a jungle or hurt.not sure how 1 shoe/boot from each girl is found together and one had a foot still in it with still soft skin. Not to mention all the multiple times someone tried to get into a phone and couldn't get in. Plus the pics that was deleted later on. There is stuff about this story that says Foul play really came into play. This story is like the JonBenet Ramsey, the Zodiac killer and Jack the Ripper. Like those stories this one is up there in the mysteries that will never will be solved
Your theory is excellent .
So weird cause who is this Feliciano dude to report them missing? Two tourists didn’t make it to his tour and so what? They could be doing other things on their time. The guy is a weirdo guilty or not. I mean imagine changing your mind last minute and going swimming instead and this fricking tour guide decides to go through your shit in the airbnb
I agree that I find his actions highly suspicious. He was also the one who found Lizannes boot...? Also it crosses my mind that why would they pay this guide for a guided hike on April 2nd when they knew they were completing this hike the day before in the same area and presumably would have been tired because El Pianista looks like a tough hike.
@@lauragowers1160 they have booked the hike through the german girl not with the guy, and then they changed their mind to do the Pianista a day before.
Maybe they were the only guests to booked him..
Sorry, but not suspicious at all. And he was quite the opposite of being ''a weir*o''. In fact its very nice of him, to feel that responsible for his customers , who payed him money in advance, and then they dont show up. A good guide cares ! A good guide cares to also give back their money. Additional when he got the information from the host family that the girls went to the pianista trail, he knew he could help, because he gives many tours to the pianista trail - also he has a farm in that area. He knew that area very good. So his first thought was: i will found this girls. Not only was he the first who wanted to search them. He was also the first who reported them at the police station. He was even angry that the police station didnt took him serious. So he went to the paddocks (beyond Mirador) to look for traces of footsteps of the girls. But he didnt find any traces. Thats when his concerns were even higher. And he tried to get as much information as possible to find the girls (yes, also he begged the family to open the room of the girls, to find hints where the girls wanted to go .. for instance written in their diaries etc). You know: at that point the girls were still alive , and everyone had reason to believe that on 2-3rd april the girls were alive - so the clock was ticking. Of course its very important to get as much information as possible to find the girls ! We remember: at that point there was no smartphone data or foto data available , because smartphone and camera was still in the possession of the girls. So Feliciano and the others had to work with the very small information which were provided by the room of the girls.
Feliciano also was again at the police.. and wanted that they search the girls, and he again offered his help. Only then the police took it half-serious, and registered them as missing.
We remember: none of the so called witnesses wanted to help at that point. Even Zineproc was not interested at that point.
Only when the money was flowing - when the parents of Lisanne and Kris promised 30k for everyone who could give information about the girls, everyone came out of the woodwork , and made up claims (because at worst: nothing happens... and at best its a bullseye-guess and the 'witnesses' living in poverty win in the guessing-lottery 30k ) . Thats when also the so called taxi driver showed up, and gave even wrong time-lines, which we now know from the picture-data, that he lied. It was a guessing lottery - and no one won. But there are still enough keyboard-wise people who think that the selfclaimed witnesses only can tell the truth. As we know now: even the dog blue was a lie. That dog never was with the girls, as we know from the fotos. But back then it was guessing-lottery... and the fotos which proved otherwise were still in possesion of the girls. Because the camera and smartphone was found 4 months later, who disproved the taxi-driver-lottery-gambler, and disproved the dog-blue-gambler , and many literally every ''witness''-gambler.
Even when there was no hope to find the girls alive, Feliciano helped the police to find the remains of the girls. And he found a shoe of Lisanne with bones in it. He helped as much as he could. And people all over the world framing him as the villain. Just because without him there would even be a smaller chance to find the girls. He was the first and best chance besides Zineproc to find the girls, and/or the remains.
It makes me angry, that Feliciano is threated like a criminal without any evidence. Its like a witchhunt. We are truly not better than middle-age times. For us reality always is: what we want to believe. Thats so sad.
@@PygmalionFaciebat Very well said!!!
The latest update on this case is that there is a witness who has fled to costa rica. It concerns a woman who had a relationship with a gang member from Boquete. persons who witnessed 'the possible gang related murder' of the girls have now all been murdered or died in suspicious circumstances . One of the main 'suspects' is Henry G, the stepson of the tour guide Feliciano G. given the circumstances, it remains quiet on this case because people are just too scared to talk.
La mamá de uno q aparece con ellas en las fotos ( osman) es la q dijo q Henrry( hijo de F) se puso a decir( estaba borracho) cómo las habían matado. La banda se lo llevó con disimulo y lo mato..esto está en los vídeos q compartí en este canal
I went down to the rabbit hole of this case over the weekend, watched many video, yours is the most complete and unbiased. Thank you Maja
Thank you for watching, Anita 🕵🏻♀️
People talk about the jungle in Panama as if it was the Amazon Rainforest, which is bigger than countries. Panama is as narrow country, from the "El Mirador" of the Pianista Trail, the distance, in straight line, to the city of Boquete, is only 5 kilometers and, to the other side, heading the atlantic ocean, there are only 25 kilometers. How in the world, someone keeps lost in a place so close to civilization, with several trails in the area, locals living in the forest, searching teams, 12 sniffer dogs, helicopters etc.??!!
Because they didn’t get lost. They either got lured or kidnapped and were most likely killed within the week. The locals know a lot more than they can say.
Yes, they were close to civilization and should have been spotted and rescued. They should be able to meet locals, hikers, tourists and farmers. They should also be able to see a house, a hut, a farm, a sign or something 🛖🏕🪧
I mean they were not there or have returned to Boquette and then something else sinister happened to them. There were eye witnesses seeing them returned and went into a red truck. I believe true .
Thanks for covering this topic so well. I hope they one day receive the justice they deserve.
See my reply above and/or my few short videos on them to help solve the case, the LOCALS KNOW ALL BUT are afraid to talk as it is gang infested down their and canables after the Merador!! At least take guns if you go in two's and don't go past the Merado or Continental Divide line, unless your local, didn't you read most videos by locals??? If your not with a guide "your fair game for the canables" The canabals thinks we are the stupid ones, don't be stupid when hiking places like this in 3rd World countries, the witnesses who saw K and L, know it was them, they were TALLER, even Kris was taller than locals, and she has stand out RED hair and L. was very TALL comparied to locals and retirees...!! You won't solve this and other crimes unless you study or live down their to know the hidden secrets and evil gangs, canibals that luke there!! They think we are nothing but free food and prey. That is savage country! They probably leave the older retirees alone as gangs don't want old people to kill, eat or S. A.!! Sorry to "enlighten" you of Panama and Costa Rica, etc.. Kris only had experience being in Peru with her MOM AND DAD AS SHAPERONES, SHE HAD NO IDEA OF WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO TRAVEL AND TWO STAND OUT ATTRACTIVE YOUNG WOMEN, THEY WERE LOOKED ON AS BATE!
1.you have to say that you would never do a day hike with not charging phone battery especially in a thrid world country you never been to and without a guild. 2. having got lost!! I know that without water for more then 3 days i'm dead so I wouldn't be that worried about the phone battery and trying to make it last over a week!. 3. If I made the first emergency call at 1639, I would be at least trying to call every 30 mins until say 2200 on that first night and also the second morning as soon as i wake up or it gets light, I would think that by say 8-9 am people would know that we had not returned home previous night and someone would raise the alarm to police ect...
This is why soo many people suspect foul play in this case. whichever side of the case you think is right you can't explian this total lack of calls on first three days.
I believe they just wanted to try and get to the Mirador and back. No more than that. Once they accomplished that in good time, however, and feeling still fit and proud of themselves (judging by the photos) they spontaneously decided to go a bit further. My opinion is they didn't willingly and alone go beyond that stream pictured in 508. That would have been a nice cut off point to head back. You'll notice Kris is not pictured making the other side. Lisanne doesn't picture it from the other side either.
Probably Lisanne just told Kris to get onto the rocks and pose then come back. They likely started back towards the Mirador, hence why no more pictures were taken as they had already taken pictures coming down. Then something happened shortly after. Whether they were taken or chased back across that stream and beyond or somewhere else is anyone's guess.
I think they were naive. Im dutch. You simply can't get lost there. Maybe they thought the path was easy and maybe it was. I think they were ill prepared but also foul play.
My theory is that they got lost at first but then somebody did find them and instead of helping them find their way back, they simply took the chance to rape and murder the girls or maybe they didn't even need to murder them but only hurt them enough for them to die of exposure. Later, when the search was at their peak, the perpetrators could have hidden the bodies and cut them in small pieces to scatter them around hoping animals would feed on them. 😢
Been thinking something similar for a while, and I hate the thought :( we know a german tourist was lost and then found AND RAPED by some of the men searching for her, subhuman fckers. She managed to scape and survive but yeah...
I pray this case gets solved. It's difficult to imagine that these girls simply got lost. It's more likely they were kidnapped and murdered. Just seeing those night time photos is like something out of a horror movie. Also you are simply not understanding the most critical information. The girls had planned to do volunteer work which they had specific dates where this was arranged before they left. Now obviously they would of double checked these arrangements before they left The Netherlands, so why did they say that they had the dates wrong?
I think it was the case that the school didnt stick to the agreement and had no use for them on the first week of the agreed-upon period. Afaik neither spoke Spanish, so how much use could they be to teach children?
How is it difficult to imagine they simply got lost ? A lot of people get lost all the time in the wild even.
@@padichat_derp it'S not hard, it just doesn't fully fit what we know. Then again foul play doesn't fully fit either.
Any normal person who’s lost in a jungle/ Forrest and knows their chance of being found alive is small, would’ve used those last moments/ photos on the camera and phones to leave messages for family, clues on the path. And peace of mind what happen to them. Whatever happen, they were not propane’s for and therefore all actions following were in a panic. I feel even in the results of injury, they would’ve more clearly tried to find a plan. Wait for help, make video messages, take pictures of locations. Etc. there is far too many un-thought out decisions that make me believe they were pressured into going deeper into Forrest and got lost/ hurt that way. Or were attacked/ held hostage until killed. Maybe even had gotten lost first too. That’s why all info lead to different out comes. 2 very smart girls in their right minds would’ve made 1 of many other smart choices that would’ve solved this quick if foul play wasn’t involved and they were simply jsut lost or hurt. That is jsut my opinion.
Nothing points to any 3rd party involvement.
The night photos were only taken to illuminate the trees above them to create a beacon. They weren't moving, infact you can make a colleague of all the night photos clearly showing the only thing moving was the camera.
I think I can explain all the unusual events. I can put together a simple explanation for how they naturally died.
I don't believe there was any foul play. There is no evidence of it.
One big question I have! If there was no cover up or something wrong done on purpose, how could they search and not find them in so many days they survived? Is it logical? 11 days and nobody finds them? Locals or turists, people who know the area.
No, it’s not logical
The white bracelet is her headband, you’ll notice it’s round her wrist when her hair is down and missing when her hair is up
Fascinated by this case so creepy and unsettling never go camping or hiking unless with a big group.Thanks for your detailed coverage.
After 8 days with no or little food, and the stresses of being lost, the nighttime photo shooter could also be insane by that time, snapping away for no good reason.
Things deteriorate fast when you're lost in the jungle, not eating, scrambling over mud & rocks, tortured by fear, insects and injuries -- and perhaps also the girls got quite cold every night in their ridiculously unwise tank-tops and shorts. So I could see them either becoming virtually insane or making a few last spasmodic efforts to signal someone by lighting up the trees. Maybe they thought they heard, or dreamt they heard, rescuers or a helicopter. But I don't get the hair picture... Why such a weird close-up? Even for an insane person or someone barely alive, to me it makes no sense. It seems like such a shot could not be accidental. But what could the motive behind it have been?
"In life it's not which path you take, it's whose path you cross" (Wolf Creek 2) Frank van der Goot, a teamleader during searches by Panamanian and Dutch volunteers said:- "The area where this is supposed to have taken place, simply is not an area where you can get lost. Anyone who is suggesting the girls lost their way and claiming this to be an actual possibility, has simply never physically been on the trail itself." What has been suggested, especially by F, is that the girls far from straying off the trail kept going along it for some reason. 1:19:15 Well in the early hours in a rainstorm(first one of the season actually) would be the idea time to us flash photography and not be seen by any random person. The best way to escape justice is make it look like there was no crime, and for that you cannot leave any witnesses. Which entails committing a far more serious crime. The night photos show someone with clean hair, not at all greasy, and this was a week after she went missing and had access to shampoo. The ultimate r**e hack is liquidating the victim and then making her demise look like an accident. I think Kris was the target and kept for a week. That was a live Kris in the night photos; location is is most likely in the area behind F's ranch and near where Kris's shorts were found, so about two and a half hours walk from Alto Romero.. To me, if that was a face it was not the face of Lisanne but Kris with her low set projecting cheekbones and somewhat receding chin. Lisanne's remains suggest a jungle grave, she likely was in it by the 3rd.
Watch me resist everything in me not to close off the last part with that quote!!! 🔥 Thanks for this insight, I’m reading up on investigation from tomorrow - might ping you again here cuz by this point, one thing you don’t have to convince me of is that you’re some sort of detective and either deserve a medal or at least your own channel! 🙏🏼
When did van der Goot hike this path? Had the path been cleared and additional signs been placed since the women went missing but before his team went?
@@billmartins5545 Vab Der Goot is a forensic pathologist who was part of a Dutch search team that arrived at most a few months after the girls disappeared I think. He definitely was there before any substantial changes were made although It is true that Van Der Groot does not believe they were homicide victim, he thinks they slid into a deep ravine where took a long time to die. But it there was a drought when KK and KS disappeared and it ended a few days later so the main difference Van Der Groot may have been misled by is the mud that was there when he was on the trail
If Kris & Lisanne got lost & succumbed the entire tragedy can be chalked up to “prepare better.” BUT that’s not why millions of people worldwide are addicted to trying to understand this case. If the truth is what many of us believe: crime, then an entire country stands indicted and $7.5 billion per year is on the line
The village woman who found the backpack is Feliciano's coffee farm worker .
She said what Feliciano instructed her to say.
The backpack is given to her .
Not found by her .
Think about this , how big is the chance that she casually saw the backpack somewhere in the jungle ?
Less than minimal chance and at the same time the professional and trained Dutch Rescue Team with dogs found nothing ?
The Dutch girls can move , they should have met someone in eleven days .
Foul play for sure.
Foul Play is such a stretch. "Why are the stripes on her shirt diagonal?" Because shirts bunch, even tight ones. "Why is there mud on her leg when they hadn't crossed a stream?" Because dirt can get wet from other means besides creeks, such as rain, which can leave the ground wet for several days depending on the soil.
Close to 0% chance of glitch for 509? Where did you source that from? Same Juan who doesn't know about shirt bunching?
Thank you so much .been reading on this in out day night past 5 days across the RUclips platform. And l must say you have done the best amongst them all rest of the RUclipsrs. For once->So very detailed vlog time/days of their activities from 1st right up to 11th..prior to coming across this vlog of yours back forth murder /lost/murder But on listening to your vlog today now--> 1) they both were lost and died finally 2) Lisaane and Chris were together right till the very end ..3) end of 2 beautiful souls 4) if only the school hadn't denied them to start their work on 1st both them would be alive
This my conclusion ..Cheers Keep up the good 👍 job your doing 👏...
Thank you for your support 😊
Don't think there was any work to begin with.. no Spanish.. how were they gonna b much use.. complete setup..
And why do you not comment the fact the two girls have switched the Rucksack which underlines the theory that they made it back to the start?
If I am hearing this right ( 59:02 ) between the last call of day two and the first call of day three, the official confirmed information is that there was a full twenty two hours without an emergency call during which one of the girls' phone was switched on. Moreover on the day of the hike the very first emergency call, certainly made while the girls were still mobile and very far from any cable bridges, was followed by a 14 hour switch off of both phones, with no attempts to call obviously. But if the girls thought they were moving towards the signal tower and would be in range of the signal, why would they switch off their phones for 14 hours straight instead of walking for an hour then to switch on for a bit to try another call or just see if they had a signal, moving on then trying again. It doesn't make sense to completely switch off both phones for that long if they were on the move. Note that there was no switch on for a signal check at all until after 1pm on the morning of the second. Between 5pm on the 1st April and 9.30am on the 3rd of April (the last attempted emergency call) there were two periods amounting to a total 36 hours in which there was no call being attempted to anyone. And no attempted calls after the one on the the morning of the 3rd were made at all. Yet suddenly after that time there is a regular switch on check signal switch off twice a day routine. Then on the 11th the phone is not only switched off but replaced in the backpack which is fastened closed.
I think Chris got injured by then, reason for 1st emergency call 4.49 2nd 4.58 and 3rd was following morning 6 + am
@@saywhatyouwant888 But the very first emergency call from each phone (single call from each girl's phone 12 minutes apart) was followed by a 14 hour switch off of both phones. So there is a pattern of 'going dark' from the begining. Furthermore, there was not any call from either phone after the 3rd, and if you say that is because Lisanne could only work her own phone and her phone had the battery run down; the battery was only run down because it had been left _on_ during the 22 hour no call gap between the 2nd and 3rd. It all stinks of the clandestine.
and ... no texts??????????
@@march3769 They are supposed to have lost their minds after a few days. Pertinently, there was one attempted emergency call from each phone at just before five in the afternoon on the day of the hike, and then there was a fourteen hour gap between the original attempted emergency calls, one from from each phone, and the next phone activity, which was one failed emergency call from each phone the following morning. Crucially, both the phones were both switched off one hour after the first emergency call attempt (one from each phone twelve minutes apart). Are we supposed to believe that after the failed emergency call neither made any retry, and both instead decided to be early to bed for their night lost in a strange jungle, and so in order to get a good nights sleep (and not be bothered by people calling them?) switched both their phones off at the same time and left them off for a whole _thirteen_ hours?
@@seancidy6008 none of it makes any sense really, okay so maybe they did lose their minds about 3 days or so in. But that very first day, first night and the second day they would not have lost it that soon. That call for emergency so early on , and then there are no serious attempts at calling, texting , something for help. I get it they wanted to save the battery , but jmo if it was me I would have made many many more attempts to reach anyone. Do you have a theory on this? What would make sense as to the phone situation?!
There is proof that the girls came back from the trail. It looks later in the day, according to the shadow and the rucksuck, carried by Kris instead of Lissane. The pictures on the top with the thumbs up are so eerie, it looks like they were taken by some guys that suggested this weird pose. The girls look uncomfortable.
Luciano apparently liked to make his groups pose like this
Another thing is of mine. Is if they can tell the time of death or how long of death why is it not compared to the very last pics taken with the phone. It would help with everything
let's clarify that mine are all assumptions so things could have gone very differently I found this case about ten days ago on the internet on RUclips and it bothers me that these two girls who in my opinion were murdered do not have justice here in Italy there is a saying “THINKING BADLY ABOUT OTHERS MAKES SIN…” “…but often one guesses” often used by Giulio Andreotti and in this case there is nothing that leads me to think of an accident
1) Looking at photos 580 and 541 if you hadn't seen the rest of the photos you would have ever associated those photos inside a jungle (I think not) so who says those photos weren't made to make believe that kris and lisanne were there in the jungle (I'm not an expert but if some expert photographer can tell us if it's possible to make changes to the photo by changing the date and time it would be appreciated)!!!
2) what makes you think that the girls were stuck in the jungle, just the fact of having seen those photos taken from 1.30 to 4.10 hence the persistence of the authors to stay more hours in the jungle let's say that these photos had been taken in 10 minutes, you might have thought that someone had gone there ten minutes had taken those pictures and gone but making it last more hours was more believable that Lisanne and kris were lost and it would have had a different effect in the eyes of those who would have seen the photos later and maybe that's exactly what the authors wanted us to believe so hence the need to spend more hours in the jungle, so it was enough for them to spend half a night taking insignificant photos in the jungle, maybe even away from the pianist and mirador ,( because as far as I know this location has never been identified) putting 541 and 580 between them to make it look like Kris and Lisanne were there for a week in the jungle, injured, and missing while perhaps they were imprisoned elsewhere and perhaps even near this place!!! If it really happened, it would explain why no photos were taken between April 2nd and 7th and even after until 11am kris' cell phone was turned back on so it's assumed one of them was alive (but I think whoever turned it back on is an outsider, it would explain why some of the girls' remains were found far from the mirador (they were taken), it would explain the fact that the jungle searches were inconclusive!!!3 I also have my doubts about who made the emergency calls when we discovered that these calls were only made after the backpack was found and the phones analyzed so whoever made those calls knew there was no signal in fact 'the only time the signal was caught instead of trying again they switched off In a nutshell, the cell phone did the opposite of what two people who wanted to be found would have done!!! Ps not to mention the pin of the missing photo and other things that don't add up or like the mysterious deaths of local youths so I wonder how the Dutch government passed the official story of the accident an accident would have had less whys and more answers!!!
Was their camera capable of recording video? If so I was surprised they didn't leave a video message, especially Lisanne considering her diary and being homesick and missing her parents.
Yes it was. They took other videos on their Panama trip. There was still plenty of battery life left in the camera months later.
All Lisanne would have to do is video a short message explaining what happened, instead of playing cryptic games with twigs and weird camera shots.
Its pretty clear Lisanne didn't take those pictures.
The complete lack of messages to family make me think foul play.
members of rescue teams say most people who get lost DO NOT leave any message
@@lyndoncmp5751 I also think that those twigs, SOS sign, night photos, hair photo, all 911 and 112 calls ARE ALL STAGED. These young women were clearly seen have returned from the trail safely. It was impossible that if they could survive 11 days in the trail and not been found. Absolutely no proof that the night photos were taken by the Dutch girls/girl. Also, no proof that the phone calls were made by them. No proof that there was a dog.
However, justice has already been done by the Panama Authority in a "secret way" Three members of the Bandida Gang have been "wiped out" plus the taxi driver whom, I believe, told the gang the whereabout of the girls. Feliciano did not directly involved in the crime but he knew exactly who did that and he assisted in the cover-up. I am very convinced that the Panama Authority knew what really happened 🔪
@@lyndoncmp5751 What do you make of the shot of the hair? Why would anyone take such a photo? Why does the hair look clean? Was Kris even alive then?
Hello Maja and everyone
I have read and heard many theories about this case.
yours is really well detailed and clear. which is what got me thinking.
assuming it's a crime I wonder... in those 11 days that Kris and Lisanne (assuming they were in the jungle at least because they kept reaching out). Doesn't it seem unlikely to you that the third party was committing a crime while the emergency services were swarming.
that third party must also have been aware of that search by then.
it seems unlikely to me that they would not have been held hostage in the jungle, but somewhere else. because then they would simply not be in possession of the phones.
There was a German woman who disappeared in the jungle in Boquette in 2017, and she was discovered by the search & rescue. The search & rescue held her captive for three days raping her until she escaped them. The killer could've been part of the rescue team, pretending to look for them, and knowing exactly where they were looking, even directing them.
The area they were presumed lost is inhabited by a few hundred people, with a few settlements and a few dozen dwellings. The people have dogs, lights at night, and cooking smells. Only the Holendesas of all the missing, stayed missing! Hard to stay lost I think.
Thanks Jaime, are you based in Panama yourself? That is definitely something odd, as is for me personally how few of their body elements were found / how the rucksack hasn’t been found for weeks if this is the case. Are you leaning / convince there was foul play here?
@@MysterieswithMaja I live in Boquete even before the Holendesas disappeared. I don't have a theory, due to lack of good evidence, however them being lost scenario is very weak. I have tested my findings on my iPhone 4 like Kris had. BTW most of the "lost" area is not a jungle. The limited area above 5000ft is a different biome and jungle like, but is actually a cloud forest. Nobody lives there as it is too cold and dense, AFAIK. The Alto Romero area is the same biome as Boquete. Actually using the imprecise term jungle leads to very incorrect optics that don't apply here, eg; piranhas, sweltering heat, cannibals, incessant insects, drug cartels, etc.
@@NadaYoTengo thank you, that’s helpful! What part did you test on iphone4? One thing that I mentioned I dont fully understand is the sim pin, do you know if that’d have mattered here in terms of the second person accessing the phone?
@@NadaYoTengo hey Jaime, me again, have been watching a bunch of videos of people covering the trail , including Kremers family. Got a question - have you hiked it yourself? There are 2 wildly different opinions : that you can’t stray away from it or that it’s so easy to get lost because of the brush / fog / early twilight etc. what are your opinions if you have a personal experience? P.S. Puedes responderme en español si es más facil , podria entenderlo , hay muchos detalles que se han perdido en traducciones sobre este caso. En particular, durante las entrevistas con los testigos, los guias - has encontrado alguna vez un video en plan body language analyst sobre las entrevistas del documental El misterio de las holandesas por ejemplo? Los guias se comportan completamente diferente al responder en ingles comparando sus respuestas en español. Lo que puede ser por estar más comodos al responder en su idioma o tmb puede indicar decepcion. 😅 Que opinas sobre el sendero y que facil seria perderse despues del llegar al Mirador?
@@MysterieswithMaja Hola, Español es mi idioma segundo. Ingles es mejor. I hiked the Pianista with my amiga. She led the way, I just followed. So I can't say if it was easy to get lost. It appeared easy.
My understanding is the girls freedom of action ended at the creek with photo #508. That photo indicates a serious distraction and the fun is over. Missing #509 was of the approaching influence. The abductor was not hi-tech and was letting them use their cell thinking communication had to be verbal. They were "captured and loosely controlled for several days. I can't imagine the "end game".
#506 & #507 are not 'having a good time on holiday' photos either
& #505 is just plain weird
I agree! Kris's expression looks so 'off' in that picture. I believe that the approacher knew the area well enough to know that they wouldn't have signal so wasn't worried about them having their phones.
Late night photos location needs to be discovered. It was either to ward off animals or alert night time search crews. I would like to see a schedule and locations were the rescue time operated.
@Bee-vy1eo there was night helicopters
If the one girl's phone was left on the entire first night they may have been using that to try to see with the flashlight or something. After the first night they realize how lost they were and we're more conservative with the other phone. I really think they just got lost maybe it got dark quickly and they lost the trail on the way back. They use the one girl's phone to try to find their path but failed to do so. They end up getting deeper and deeper into the jungle , by the fifth day I think the one girl passes away... Either way the girl with the backpack whichever one it was probably did fall at one of those bridges it seems like they did get a picture of it that one night. And then the river takes care of the rest. Keep in mind the phones were found in a Ziploc bag inside the backpack and the backpack was found in the river no matter what anyone else tells you. So whoever was still alive have used the phone and then put it away and then died. I think there's a flurry of nighttime pictures either due to a predator such as an animal or perhaps hallucinations. I do find it incredibly odd they never did a video goodbye or any more pictures of each other. The back of the head is probably just from her hitting her head on something and then they're checking it out. It's easy to overthink everything in this situation.
Useful comments Maja, but why do you never talk of the photo on which you presumably see Kris and Lisanne swim with two local guys?
Because it's nonsense.
@@Avid_Fan how? the pic exists
What if they didn’t realize that they got el mirador because of shot time to get there. And when they realize they are lost they couldn’t say if they pass for or if the didn’t go for the right rote?
Photo 580 doesn't tell us anything about Kris' location or condition. It makes no sense as a location marker for finding her body, because it doesn't mark the location at all. One foul play theory is that Kris' head is not attached to her body in this photo. It's so very carefully zoomed in to just show her hair, but not reveal anything of her face, neck, shoulders. What's special about her hair? Nothing to Europeans, but we know that some Panamanian men fetishised 'exotic' blonde women.
A possible reason that the pin was never entered again correctly, and an emergency call was not made, but other apps etc were accessed, is water damage. I recently had an iPhone that had water damage, and when I attempted to type in my pin, the wrong digital keys would be struck, but I could still turn it on and off with the analog control. The phone worked like normal again after putting it in a bag of rice and drying it out. Perhaps Kris’s phone worked when it was recovered, but had water damage during the days that it was not used to make calls or enter a pin. Just a thought
This is a good theory however the timing is a bit suspect.
Did someone ever check the GPS location history data from the phones/maps? Even 2014 this was tracked in Google Maps when activated even when offline (GPS) is usually always there.
Also some Apps and widgets might got GPS in background even without signal, E. G. weather widget and others. This MIGHT be in the logs.
Also about the pictures: Sometimes I take 50 pictures of my GF in 20 seconds :)
I got stuck with all my different theories, so I took a step back, looking at the picture as a whole. The girls vacation was going well until the language school turned them down. Why could the school not find anything else for the girls to do? Surely there should have been some work needed. Anyway, that is when it all starts going sideways for them. I started to wonder who organized this trip, how did they found out about the volunteer positions? Was it an organized set up from the get-go? What disturbed me so much about the pictures on top of the trail is the excessive thumbs up thing they are doing. I get odd vibes from that. Also, no way on getting by the bleached bones. Hair is dry because they are in a cave, taking pictures looking up. When you turn some of the night pictures, it can make sense. There is a guy on RUclips (backpacking coach) who made an excellent video about that.
I really thought you did an outstanding job on both parts, can't wait for the 3rd!!!!
Thank you so much, just writing it up and the thumbs up are included in it , more on bleached bones in the theories section - looking at the script in front of me, I believe I’ll split the investigation and theories apart and that you’ll have a part 4 😅
The school seems to have been thoroughgoing sketch not least because their house guide was F, who was advising a couple of naïve girls about the trails, despite the fact that he had a certain reputation. He was was quite possibly paying the school for bringing him all this young stuff. He spends almost all his money on his 'hobby', according to what Nina von Rönne heard from his wife.
I know right they was working for free and they turned them away 🙄
I used to think the thumbs up were odd. But the two Dutch guys they met at Bocas del Toro were both pictured by them doing the thumbs up so it was probably just a homage to them. Perhaps they were going to send them the photos of their own thumbs up when they got back, which they sadly didn't.
I dont know much about voluntourism but i just cant see how two women who dont speak the language are going go be of any use to teach kids. Maybe they were offered cleaning jobs and refused? Probably not as i imagine they would have recorded it in their diaries. People need to stop looking for volunteering in a country where you dont speak the language, where you will only be for a few weeks. How anyone who is concerned with child safeguarding can be ok with a revolving door of strange adults working with children is beyond me.
Regarding picture #509, the interplay between the GPS tracking on the camera and the time zone demarcation issue (Costa Rican border) needs to be explored more. I recently heard a great explanation of how a pic can be either deleted or "overwritten." automatically because of an internal clock change.
For #541, I believe what we're seeing is not a face or hair, but the flash reflecting off the large boulder with the twig collection on top.
why the dont write a message in the phone in the ending for there family? very mystery
Absolutely thrilling....about the phone activity... in that situation, knowing families, friends and myriam are very concerned about their missing... I strongly believe they would at least wrote whatsapp messages to them e.g. "we are ok, but lost the path". An asthma attack may have occured on the trail to change everything and theres more priority to 110 than contacting a family member, but during all the other days they did not even write or try a pending whatsapp? Seems very odd too me. I consider the girls have been seperated from the phones and somebody tried to get access to the pictures
Thanks for following through - that gap in digital data is so haunting 😓
Fourteen hours without any attempted emergency call between the last call of day one (April the 1st 2014) and the first call of day two (April the 2nd). 59:02 between the last call of day two and the first call of day three, there was a full twenty two hours without an emergency call. Give me strength!
@@MysterieswithMaja 59:00 spotters badge to Maja.There was a 14 hour period with no calls and a switch off, but then as you alone trenchantly point out, 22 hours without an attempted call (even though a phone was kept switched on). Therefore, a total of 36 hours without an emergency call by nine in the morning on the third, which was 42 hours after the first attempt. The is what covert operatives and police intel slang calls 'going dark' , deliberately not trying to make contact.
I also believe that an asthma attack did occur due to high altitute and less oxygenation in relation to stressful circumstances, anguish of being lost.
Hi Maja I’m back to watch all four parts again! You deliver info in an unbiased manner which is very helpful with this case as many have landed on their theories prior to making videos (and all the evidence) fit what they believe. I will be posting comments as I work through all 4 parts again…
I think the change in settings on the iPhone just moments before dialing emergency is very indicative that the girls were still in possession of their phones at that point. I am also wondering if the data found on the phones would show if they used the flashlight function?? Maybe the Samsung on overnight meant they used flashlight and possibly were on the move? Also the pin removal to access control center would allow a quicker view of cell service, time, and I believe access to the flashlight if the phone had capability wouldn’t it? Just some thoughts on the phone activity. I’ll keep posting anything I find intriguing
I had same thoughts on the phone being on overnight , since they never kept it long but that night , was it to use the flashlight while traveling?! So many questions in this case, when I think it was all an accident then something don't make since ugh this one may never have all the full answers. I assume they would have been frightened but phone and camera activity well , it don't show much fear . I say that because it seems like way more calls would have been attempted to be made to emergency services . Some kind of texts messages to parents etc. I know if I was lost I would have been trying really hard to get a signal and call , text , something out. But they seemed to keep it together by powering the phone off only using it for a signal sparingly saving the battery. My phone would have been dead the very next day by trying to reach someone.
So when we are talking about this photo shop pics. Are we talking about pics taken off there phone or off other websites. Bcus i find it really hard to believe that these girls that are lost hurt and close yo death. Took the time to Photoshop any pictures. I say foul play bcus of how everything in the bag found are nice and neat and one girls foot was still in her sock and boot. Bcus they found 1 boot/shoe from each girl was found. But one had a foot in it that was still in the sock and it still had soft skin
Watching again 😁 best video on RUclips
This is some fan energy ♥️🤭
@@MysterieswithMaja big big fan please do Brandon Swanson xx
@@larvin6910 btw I wanted to ping you back - I’ll be going on holiday after a case I am researching atm - but if you already by any chance have any research on Brandon’s case, you could send it my way and I can finalise it once back and cover the case? Was just thinking that you sound like you might have the inside knowledge - let me know if wrong 😅
@@MysterieswithMaja my only knowledge of the case is from RUclips videos I'm afraid. Trace evidence have an hour long video with good information about the case.
I would like someone to look and see when those last pics when your talking about the SOS pic and the timeline of the one phone that couldnt get the phone that was locked. Could we get a timline of those attempts and the last pictures. Bcus you talked about the phone locked before the SOS pic
Maybe they heard an animal In the bushes and tried to scare it with the flash.
A really thought provoking video. I have been wondering why someone wouldn't just have buried the girls and their belongings, then you pointed out how the missing photo couldn't have been deleted out there by the girls. I'm only halfway through this video so it may be suggested later but the only way I can make sense of this being foul play is if they escaped from an attacker. This would explain why they got lost and why their bodies and belongings weren't hidden or buried. Then the attacker could have been part of the rescue team and been in a position to be able to delete the missing photo and tamper with other evidence.
Say also that the attacker took them up in the first place, he might have told them not to take any photos of him (but they managed to take one) and refused to take photos of the girls themselves hence the selfies. It would explain too how they used flash in the dark without alerting their abductor. Another thing - could Lisanne have been using the flash photos to locate Kris if she'd just fallen? I've seen them made into a collage of the same scene in another video.
One thing's for sure, those 10 days must have been beyond horrendous and the last girl left had a very lonely death, it's heart wrenching.
1:02:14 The video of Kris's parents walking the trail with F, shows when Hans Kremers was thinking out loud about the girls having been in the paddocks, F interjected he had been to the entrance to the paddocks on the 3rd by _himself_ and saw no footprints in order to convince the parents that their daughter had not been in the paddocks. Less than 24 hours after Kris and Lisanne were reported missing and ten weeks before anyone else though it likely they had been behind the Pianista at all, he had correctly 'guessed', and what is more astounding been walking on the exact trail behind the Pianista that they had actually taken. Could be an educated guess given his knowledge of tourists and the area; yet when the police asked him why he alone had quickly surmised that KK and LS went behind the Pianista, which was initially thought unlikely, and only ten weeks later discovered to be correct, he said Eileen told him the girls had went behind the Pianista. However, Eileen said she told him no such thing and had not known that was where the girls had went anyway. Hardly the act of an innocent man and it was the grounds for his listing in the police file under the heading of 'suspects'.
1:06:09 I don't see what the search teams would have to do with a phone switch on. Kris and Lisanne did not have walkie talkies , just ordinary phones. They search and rescue teams were not bringing a signal transmitting tower with them. And these girls had voices and could scream, why not scream for help instead of ineffectually tinkering with phones on a silly schedule? They certainly regarding being 2on the move" if KK and LS could walk distances between the switch ons that would mean they were in open country and not deep jungle with overhead foliage that could muffle their voices. Also they would be able to see the sun and work out which direction they had to go in from remembering the suns position along the trail on the first day. Whoever made the first emergency call seems to have been able to see the sun and the mountain directly . An even more obvious way y to orientate themselves would be the incline, because they surely would realise they they had to ascend to get back up on the overlook / summit of the Pianista. They were never more than a few miles from the overlook because the river is supposed to have carried their bodies to where the remains were found after they had died upstream. Where the remains were is less than seven miles away.
Thank you for this, I mentioned the Eileen comment during the first parter but this is so insightful! Had to check your channel as I’m genuinely surprised you haven’t made a video on this topic yourself! 😱 I went into this unbiased and without knowing too many details exactly because I’d like to see where it’ll lead me to once I read up on the investigation and the possible cover up. Hope you stick around to fight through the timestamps next week too. 🔥
Tour Guides Feliciano Gonzales and Plineo Montenegro, know exactly what happened. Plineo Montenegro is in to organ trafficking. I´ll explain later.
@@maxmaxs9608 you ever going to explain? You've said that twice now.
@@Pissgremlin5964 A wittnes came forward. I´´ll tell you tomorrow.
They possibly were spooked by something out there and were trying to catch it on camera desperately. Maybe they were being chased by an animal or some mischief makers or were plain hallucinating due to dehydration and starvation and were getting frightened at each and every sound in the rainforest. Hence the sudden burst of photographs between those 3 hours. Maybe they located a light source in the distance and made a desperate dash for it. The photograph of the back if Kris' head was probably shot accidentally by Lisanne in that frenzy while running as you can see her hair all over the place just as would happen when someone is running.
Kris' I phone was probably not in her possession after the 5th. May be the girls were accosted by some shady individuals who confiscated their phones at that very moment but they somehow managed to escape from them later with their camera. This would explain why they couldn't enter correct pins (because they weren't the ones doing it) and the fact that the I phone was switched on way later on the 11th and that too for an hour by someone possible trying to meticulously gain access to the phone data. Again just my guess.
Off trail travel in 3rd world countries is tricky. Topo maps are treated as military secrets, not available. You should carry a hand held GPS like a Garmin, and mark waypoints as you travel.
17:00 ish: (speculation)
-the pictures with smiles are innocent and legit.
-the pictures without smiles are taken after someone encounters them
-this person may or may not be Guide F and or that young man who was found dead
-they try to pretend they aren't scared, he pretends he's not a threat, both parties fail but the charade goes on for 3 hours past picture 508
-this man is captures on picture 509, this picture breaks the charade and violence ensues, man steals camera/memory card, perhaps entire backpack
-lisannes foot is broken in this encounter, but both girls escape, perhaps more injuries are sustained
-lisanne is more physically fit than kris, at some point on day 5 the man/men catch up
-malnourished and sleep deprived, kris is captured. this could have occurred near where her shorts were found, lisanne escapes again, running on swollen knees and a broken foot
-lisanne finds refuge at the location of the night phots, frantically calls 911, in and out of consciousness
-she hears or thinks she hears helicopters, or knows she's dying and begins frantically sending flashes out into the sky, her only form of communication
(the photo of kris' head is hard to explain with this theory so maybe it's coming off the rails)
Both girls perish, their belongings are collected by the man/men, their bodies are collected, carried by cows to hide and wait for the reward
You speak of the Delphi murder of the two girls. The murderer has been caught!!! He was a local man who continued to live life like nothing happened.
Heya hope you are well listening to this case again. Have you thought about dyatlov pass
What proof do we have that the girls booked a tour with Feliciano for the 2nd? Feliciano said he never even spoke to them before, so how can they have booked a tour with him?
I have entertain the thoought that picture #580 is of Kris hair after it has been detached. That's why it's in excellent condition.
I agree, unfortunately. To me though, it seems like the front of her head with hair hanging over her face.
Like dide said. If they never made it to the river how did there backpack make into the river with nothing messed up and still nicely folded in the bag and how was 1 of each girls shoes found next together and 1 had a foot still in it. Plus some pics that was deleted that would have been taken when they was dead im guessing. Bcus you never gave a time line of when they died according to the timenof death and the last pics taken or who tried to get into there phone. Foul play comes from a foot still in side a shoe and another from the other girl found next to it. You just didnt put 2&2 together. The real question is still what happened and WHO did it
I don't think, Lisanne made the Fotos to remember where Kris died. Why wouldn't she wait till daylight to take better pictures? For me, there are only two possibilities: Alert the rescue Teams or Kris died in that very moment and Lisanne totaly freaked out and liked to "share the moment with the World." .....By the way: In my opinion The foto of Kris head is the Front. It's pitch Black night. Lisanne takes Fotos, but Kris can't see her. So she layed over Lisanne to Look in the direction of the camera. Why do I think so. Because for me the hair is hanging not laying. But who knows.
It's clearly the back of the head. Anyone can see that.
At 11:00 Jeremy Kryt, writing THE article that put this story on the map (Daily Beast, 2019)stated in no uncertain terms that the Kremers & Froons opted to keep a substantial number of pictures (from all 3 devices) private. So far your reminding of this is one of the most salient points of the entire case. Folks? Does everyone get what this means? It means jaw-dropping images, heart wrenching images, images that mic-drop this case likely exist but are deemed inappropriate for the general public (per the families). And it is what it is.
I would never leave the city centre or knowing I would not have where to charge my phone on 50% ever... that was the first mistake.. and then how those phones were operational for 11 days? it is beyond me.
They weren't. Lisanne's phone died after two days. They kept Kris' phone alive by only switching it on at certain times in the day. No great mystery. Did you not listen to this podcast?
First: thank you for this very detailed series (I just saw that there is a first part)! Very good documentation.
What I don’t get is: I don’t understand, why the girls are so upset about the Fakt, that their plans were not going as they wished? That’s a fact that can happen. Everyday, every time in life. It’s nothing to be so angry or sad about. They just had to start over a little bit later. That’s all. Maybe frustrating, yes, but nothing to be worry about that much in my opinion.
What I don’t get with my rational mind is the fact that so many people think about foul play… okay, it might be, but… just why? Why would two tourists be worth such a big effort? In a Jungle, it would be easy to get rid of the girls and the bodies after killing them. Why bleaching the bones, why removing this one picture by computer? Why all of that? I work with people who did crimes like that here in Germany. I work with people on probation and when they are out of prison after their crimes for rehabilitation. None of the clients I work with would do so much effort, especially not in the jungle of Panama. It’s possible that someone killed them. But why all this effort? Bleaching bones, manipulating the camera, the phones, the pictures at night in the Rain… doesn’t make sense to me at all, to cover or hide a crime. It could be done easier. That’s my opinion with many years of working with people who did things like this…
And I heard much. Sadly.
I also remember, at the age of early 20, me and my friends made many pictures within a few seconds, just in case one wasn’t as good, so we could choose the best picture later. It’s not a mystery to take a few pictures in a row within a few seconds, especially when you are young. In 2014, people didn’t take that effort into pictures as today, with Instagram and all the selfie stuff going on, while people are searching for the best place and best lighting to have a really great shot. We made a few pictures instead. Things have changed since 2014.
Also, I don’t get why someone would photoshop the pictures. The scenario, someone followed the girls or had the plan to rape an kill them, should keep the backpack, the corpses, the camera and their phones. He or they wanted to keep the dead bodies just to bleach random bones and bring them on different places in the jungle, place the backpack near the river to be found by a woman months later? They or he / she folded the shorts of one girl, placed it on a rock near this awkward bridge? Should take the camera to shot this weird pictures at night while it’s raining just to fool people and photoshop the pictures and remove one of them, just to hide evidence?? It would be much easier to get rid of the girls belongings in a village placed in the jungle. Much easier to get rid of the girls bodies while nature is doing it’s thing so that no evidence such as fingerprints or dna is left on the bones or bodies. Why this effort? As I said, I never heard a story like that from someone, who committed a crime like that, while I am working with people for rehabilitation. So, I don’t get it… the pictures which should actually show, that Lisannes neck and so on are edited.. in my opinion, you can’t even compare them. The angle of her face and head is different. The picture of her sitting in Bouquete and standing at the summit ist different. I don’t see any evidence for editing, sorry. It’s just not comparable.
Both girls hadn’t enough water or food taken with them for a trip like that. Especially for this kind of temperatures. Maybe they didn’t know better, but you need way more water, even for a short trip, because you never know what’s happening during a trip, even on a trail like the one the girls wanted to take. They tried to call for emergency so many times, it is possible to get lost, even on a regular trail. I had this case by myself with a friend in the wintertime in a forest in Germany. We got lost for several hours and came out at night, 5 hours away from were we lived during holidays, just by taking one path wrong. Nobody believed us at first, cause everybody was sure, there is no way to get lost in the woods at all. But we did. If you are out of wate, it is hot, no food, no change to call emergency services, one girl is hurt (or both), you can panic. Maybe this happened. Why the hell would someone photoshop bracelets? It, sadly, could be this easy. At least a part of their missing. Maybe, there were other people involved. But I don’t believe, that this was the case the whole time. I don’t believe that the one or the many who maybe were involved took this much effort, just to hide evidence.
I apologize for my English, I’m from Germany and English Isn’t not my mother tongue (obviously),
Lemme try address everything through my shift in different comms: the first one I mentioned as a potential reason for them not to wait to go on a hike with a tour guide despite being warned against it, suddenly a ton of free time opening up, could’ve been the thought process. In part 1, I really tried to understand the psychology behind these girls, who they are to avoid reducing them to their belongings and remains 🥲
The second point is one of my biggest contentions too. Why leave any evidence that can potentially lead to you or your gang if organized crime. I’ve just finalized part 4, I know I lied 😅 And still the evidence of the remains can be the biggest pointer towards foul play. But the logic and the digital data defies it. Thanks for the insight lol thought you might’ve been behind some crimes there for a second 😂
Thanks for the point on the pics - I thought I was the only crazy one but nop, just the 90s kid 😁 Especially using the camera for selfies, oh the times before selfie was even a term 😅
The bit on the shorts / disposing of the evidence I’ll touch upon more in parts 3 and 4. Shorts were apparently found wet and not folded, with some holes in them. And the only reason : reward. For the parents to stop searching as the girl would be pronounced dead . But by default that would discard a bunch of theories, and would incriminate only the people that would’ve been in the know of the searches , reward etc. just like everything else can be seen both ways 🥵
Thanks for that insight on getting lost - I’ll mention in that part of the theories that they might not have backtracked / might’ve went into a bush to pee / there are other options apart from them not following a path. Your English is perfect, I mean just listen to mine and that strong Borat like accent 😅 and thank you so much for commenting and sticking around 🤩
Eu jamais vô na ideia de ninguém de ir num lugar daquele eu vi um vídeo de um rapaz fazendo essa trilha até o memorial das meninas lugar sombrio escuro pesado e perigoso e muito tempo de caminhada e pra quem não tem experiência se perde do nada
You state as fact that they were in the jungle for 11 days. I don't think you can assert this as anything other than a conjecture, albeit a plausible one.
Love your analysis and just finished part one. A French guy did a video of him hiking the trail in the rain and ive begun to think the girls really might have gotten lost. Please watch this video.
How can I find this video
But he said its near impossible to get lost or fall.
Kris and Lisanne did it in perfectly dry weather, at the end of a drought.
There is no real place you can get lost unless you intentionally go off trail. They weren't dressed for that, did not go off trail in any of the other pictures and would surely have taken some snaps of the intriguing forest off trail. They took pictures of basically everywhere else that was interesting.
They might have gotten lost??? That area have several trails, streams, people living in the bush... in addition to that, there were a lot of people looking for them, twelve sniffer dogs, helicopters and, even so, during all these days, they just stayed there, disoriented, taking night photos, turning the phone on and off??? Oh, come on...
Hello. I told about this case to my grandfather. He is a judge, he has got experience 60 years . He said that directly' İt was an not ancient, it was a murder. And girls were not in the forest. Someone took them and deliveried to an other place. They did everything to these girls and after killed girls. The girls did not take photos. The killer or killers wanted to confuse of people. '
As you know Central and South America countries have got the highest crime rate in the world. They sell narcotic to a lot of places . Also they send narcotic to Holland too. May be a narcotic mafia killed these girls. And Panamanian authorities could not explain the truth to the world because they do not want to lose tourism's income. Just I could not understand some things, why these girls went to Panama for learn Spanish? Because they could go to any course in Spain too, it is near to Holland and safe place. Also the girls had Dutch friends in Panama. How the girls could meet these Dutch boys? Their families known it was not an ancient, and they did not trust already . But most likely Panama threated them . And the families stopped to search this case . We can write a novel about this case . Finally I want to say that, Central and South America countries are very dangerous. And life of human is very cheap there. Please just go to safe countries,like Portugal, Italy, Turkey, Sweden, Qatar etc. May God bless these girls ,and they rest in peace.
So there was a professional photoshoper wondering through the jungle for a week taking photos and making emergency calls seems like alot of work
@@larvin6910this photos can be made for 10 minutes , than editing the exif
Feliciano is the only one smart enough to stage those photos at the end. That would require him to drag kris kremers dead or alive into the forest for 3 hrs. There's no way some average criminal is going to have that mentality to an abduction ond/or rape. They would never think of it
The many attempts to getinto the phone really points to foul play I think, but I’m not totally convinced
I think that was lisanne
I dont think that one thing points to foul play. I think Kris passed away first, and Lissanne took her phone and tried to get into it but didn't know or couldn't remember a password.
I think that once they reached the summit, they decided to go beyond in their quest to see the waterfall and the river. In doing so, got lost .. and the inevitable events that followed. The backpack was found in alta Romero on the other side of the ol Pianista in Boquete, same with their remains. I read that the waters beyond the summit flows into the east. And water from the summit flows to the west.
On the foul play scenario , I read they were abducted either on the pianista trail or upon going down from the trail. Not so..The abductor wont leave any evidence like the backpack. The other side of the summit going to the river is very difficult and dangerous, difficult and dangerous also to any abductor..
They went beyond the summit as evidenced by a photo, and got lost and walked ahead in hope to find help. .
"The abductor wont leave any evidence like the backpack". Which evidence? The backpack is not an evidence for the lost theory. It is just the opposite. It is a strong hint for foul play. It was found at a place where it was not seen the days before. The content (mobiles...) was in proper condition (transported by the river?) and the electronic devices were not damaged. BUT: An important pic, pic 509, was missing in the camera and it was confirmed that the only possibility to delete this (because there is no gap in the memory) was either with a PC or directly after taking the pic with the camera before taking a new one. And as the girls NEVER deleted pics guess what is more probable...The mobiles have also been used with wrong pin codes...but ONLY after several days. The reason why the backpack was placed was to stop the ongoing search of the family and fool the police and public. It is naive to assume killers are not intelligent. By the way: an important thing was NOT found in the backpack...the key of the girls room. Tourguide F. mentioned in one of his first interviews, when he entered the girls room the next day (!), he saw the girls mobile there....F. also seems to be the strongest supporter of the "lost" theory, apart from the corrupt police fools.
I agree with you. People who still believe in the lost theory insist that the people involved would not leave the electronic devices because there may be compromising material. But, the fact that the 509 photo was removed from the camera shows that the people who perpetuated the crime ensured that they cannot identify them.@@peterdoring7521
The guy making all the videos about Photoshop is insane. He's become so obsessed with the idea that he's lost his damn mind. And his credibility
Yes, he's mental like most of the so-called "foul play" Ghouls.
I wish people would stop calling it a jungle
Do u know the area? Could u explain what it's like, I keep imagining a jungle.
@@larvin6910 Look at the video her parents took when they walked the trial. A jungle is dangerous with wild animals and indigenous plants etc. This looks more like a forest/farm vibe, open fields and cattle along the route, some parts are thicker with bush than others, but like ifnthe cattle can travel on the trial without being attacked by other animals, surely it would be the same with humans.
ME TOO 🌲🌳🌿
Io credo siano state rapite e uccise ..per quanto riguarda la foto dei capelli di Kris in uno dei tanti video che ho visto si vede un mento(credo di Lisanne)quindi la foto non è stata scattata da loro
Excellent analysis, no doubt foul play happened. The way they disappeared and remains found, possibly orchestrated by more than one perpetrator.
Thanks for watching and such kind words 😊
@@MysterieswithMaja Resulta muy sospechoso el estado de los restos de las muchachas. The bleaching of the bones was consistent in the entire surface of the bones, if they were naturally bleached (which is impossible since they will have to be exposed to the sun for a very LONG time and given the conditions of the area and the clouds, not possible), there would be shades, only the area facing the sun would show bleaching effect. I discover this case a couple of days ago and made me very sad so I started watching many videos and found yours. I am sure Sherlock Holmes would have hired you :) Oh, and I don't get me started on the backpack, that was planted, it and its content were almost pristine, somebody planted it there and it was kept indoors since the girls disappeared, no way it could show up in that clean state after days of being exposed to the elements in that environment. I can't really eliminate the theory of authorities covering this up either, the investigation went wrong from the beginning. I am almost positive that somebody that they met in the way to the trail followed them (maybe one of the drivers or folks they met on the way).
@@agatone20 I’m so glad you found my channel upon discovering the case! Have you finished the whole series?
@@MysterieswithMaja finished part 2, can't wait to hear your conclusions in part 3 👍
Thanks!
Am sure there is a killer was spotting them or forcing them to go to specific trail before get their organs ask yourself why the cut in her leg is perfectly shaped as it's still in the shoe as a remain ?!! Try connect dots all together including the picture I want you to focus on of dark images simply 😊
1:43:51 At a museum in Peru, there are some mummies with extremely long hair and nails...
The guides said that they kept growing after the individuals had died and that at some point this growth stopped 🤷🏻♀️
Why will somebody want to photoshop?just destroy the camera.
Taking a couple of naïve women from one of the safest countries on Earth by surprise in the middle of nowhere would hardly require a conspiracy. Two men with local knowledge surely may have managed it all be themselves. 31:18 While "they might not have know that they no longer had phone reception", a guide who is the acknowledged expert on that trail _would_ such as the guide who met them at the language school the day before they disappeared while hiking alone down a path that is part of the way to his farm. Ten week later who should find their remains relatively close to his his farm but the aforementioned fellow Kris and Lisanne had met at the language school the day before they disappeared while hiking alone down a path that is part of the way to his farm, which he had tried to get them to take a tour to and stay the night at. Small world! This remote ranch is a 16 hours hike from photo 508 and the paths. Presumably the distance one might have to cover to get near there while staying off the paths would be much greater. Lisanne had shin splints from walking a long distance in short time with hands tied bound behind back across rough terrain after nightfall perhaps. The streambed is the only feasible way to get off that trail, and the downslope would be easier
49:11 The down slope of the stream in photo 508 happens to include an area in which when viewing the sun it was disappearing behind the mountain when that first attempted emergency call was made. What could explain the signal having stayed the same for a few hours subsequent to around the time when they reached the stream seen in photo 508? To my mind KK and LS surely hadn't of their own free will stopped virtually on the trail for almost three hours, nor had anyone detained them there. I think that they got kidnapped off of the trail and taken away from it on a route perpendicular to the trail. Namely, along the draw of the stream photo 508 that crosses the trail. Once in an isolated spot safe from random people going about their business on the trail and general area, the perps waited for the sun to go in and local people to have finished work and go home. Perps in familiarizing themselves with the phones could ask what emergency number KK and LS would call if allowed to. The perps knew that no call could get through,. At this point KK and LS would not expect their lives would be ended; they could hardly have realized what deception the perpetrators had in mind to make the attempts to make an emergency call on the phone serve.
Thanks Sean, this is the most eloquent comment with some solid theories! So you believe that what I thought was the two of them figuring out a game plan is someone else / possibly Feliciano making sure that’s exactly what it looks like and no one suspects foul play? A quick question - do you have a theory on photo 509? Thanks for this, it’s exactly what I wanted, for someone to paint a sequence of events that I don’t see (yet) 😊
Oh and also, what do you think the purpose would have been ? Just to kill them or organ trafficking / something else? Something I’ll address in part 3 and what always screamed at me is how few remains / elements of their bodies were found. So in my mind so far, without having researched the investigation deets, I can see how their organs might have been harvested. But that I’d admit doesn’t add up / flow as a story if they haven’t met foul play before their death as you mentioned.
@@MysterieswithMaja I doubt the perpetrators would have dared risk such a deletion of 509 withstanding professional forensic examiners' abilities to bring it back, and so they would have never left the camera if they had ever been incriminated by a photo on it. They knew it was going to be gone over by experts by that point ten weeks later, even if the intensity of the the search and investigating had initially surprised them. I think it significant that F never complained he was being framed and kept on making the finds and so relatively close to his ranch; incredibly successfully I might add. Why would he not think he was being framed and stop while drawing attention to all these things being planted to implicate him?
@@MysterieswithMaja Sexual. When Nina von Rönne, who has just wrote a book about living for a few months on F's ranch met F in Boquete in 2015 she thought he was a very nice man, who was offering an idyllic location for her green lifestyle. But when she was lulled into going to live their with a friend, she saw a very different side to him. This is almost certainly something similar to what happened to Kris and Lisanne. He is not stupid enough to have his own clients disappear on a trip with him, but when he saw them on that part of the trail, he understood he had his chance. As for von Rönne, any man might be tempted to make advances and Panama is unenlightened, so obtuse approaches would not be surprising; I don't think that part of her book is all that incriminating. However, Nina said he secretly killed her pet dog then played the innocent.
@@seancidy6008 thanks for this insight into the potential motives too, Sean, you’re owning the comment section at the moment and offering so many avenues for me to look into for part 3 - I am here for it all and extremely thankful! ❤️🔥
The part I wanna know is how did that backpack get there everything else could just be them getting into trouble on a monkey bridge and one of them not being able to move while the other one went to look for help would explain the wrong pin in the phone and why they where found at different spots. I think maybe that one got hurt was immobile and this is when they took those weird flash pics in the dark the one girl not wanting to leave the hurt girl alone in the dark while hurt stayed the night with her when she woke up maybe she found friend had passed away and this sent her into shock running with alone and trying to use a phone she doesn't have the pin for while going the wrong way.
Jesseeee, you returned ❤️🔥 Thanks for sharing your theories! It’s something that flows as a theory to me too! But in part 3, I’ll also have to consider that the girls did take a ride from a stranger plus a few cab rides , so it would be a possibility that if they thought they trusted a person, that they might’ve followed them / someone could’ve overpowered them. I think I’ll need to write it up as if it were a case making it to court lol and then just argue by myself and see what theory holds more ground. 🙏🏼
@@MysterieswithMaja what do you think after all these infos and theories etccc ?! still some people keep saying how murderers leave back bag has money and devices ...my answer is might those murderers selling organs of humans so for them some devices and little money nothing that's my effort for this weird obscure case simply 😊
Kris foot was found in her shoe that's foul play to me
Lissane not kres
it was lissane foot not Kris
what amazes me is? Lisanne 11 days in hell her friend badly injured, then died. she puts everything the phone the camera. back in the rucksack, zips it up and dies.?, why didn't she go back along the trail. Looking for help, she must have been injured., why didn't the searchers find them. how Farr did they go along the track. ?
Heya. Have you heard the case of jared nagrete? Or the 411 missing phenomenon 😁
Glad to see your views and subs going up
Very well deserved
🏴
Never heard of it - I will look into it, it looks sketchy just from the brief Google search. Thanks for the recommendations and such kind words as always, Larvin 😘
@@MysterieswithMaja remember me when your a big youtuber 🤪🏴
@@larvin6910 of course, Larvin! Some names will always be imprinted in my brain ♥️
@@MysterieswithMaja am re watching as I'm going through my obsessed stage with this case.
I've noticed that in each photo the back pack keeps being switched. One min lisanne has it and the next kris.
I've had a thought. Its strange that only one emergency call was attempted at first. Do you think it started to get dark and they didn't expect it to get dark so early so called for help but wasn't completely in panick mode. So just accepted their fait that they was going to be camping out there one night. Then the next day when they still couldn't get home that's when the other emergency calls were made.
🤪Me again haha
brilliant work full of emotion?
As for the bracelets , arw those hair ties ? Because i noticed that in the pic showing bracelets hair is down, pic of no bracelets her hair is now pulled back in a pony tail so were those hair ties doe the boyh girls hair, i just seen it in the pics you showed i haven't looked at the pics them selves since this is the first i heard someone mention bracelets.
In One of the pictures of Kris on the summit it looks like she is bending very far forward, like not standing up straight. You wouldn't be able to bend that far forward without falling.
I agree. Why did she bend when taking this picture ? Not natural at all. This picture is photoshopped.
@@Sandoz-tq7qj I suspect it to be, yes 🙀
😅😅😅
co kdyz se zadavanim pinu snazili upozornit na svoji polohu, zoufaly pokus? Neco jako spustit find my phone, potencialni ktadezi?
why not ring the place where they were staying. do you no your best friends' number? the phone is like a diary. private, photos to boyfriend texes she would of give it to her. but she died. i am Shure of that.
I think it is a mistake to assume who was operating the phones or the camera. Both were covered with multiple fingerprints, breaking the chain of custody. Even NFI cannot verify the contents or the operator/s. FYI, anybody can easily append emergency call attempts to the user accessible recents log without a passcode.
These girls were inveterate text addicts. No texts or faking of texts, so the perpetrators were really not all that sophisticated. Kris and Lisanne walked into a no reception area which is exactly where a lost deception to cover up a double homicide (itself to cover up r***s) could work. Anyone might have been operating the phones, but it is a mistake to not try and decide who are the most _likely_ persons to have actually been operating them. I think we all can guess what sort of person would the idea of lost tourists would most easily occur to?
They had just been through airports ect I'm sure lots of people handled the backpack
The phones were in the possession of the abductors by this time .Either the girls were dead, or not cooperating with the alleged rapists .Unfortunately I think the bandits were just trying to get a signal to use the phones without success .I think ,ruminating on it that the girls were dead but their belongings still in possession of the bandits .Cell phones ,even stolen ones do have a monetary value in these depressed areas..To eviscerate and dismember the bodies like they have seemed to have done ,just ref,acts the violent and lawless society prevalent there .Those girls just walked into the middle of it.I suspect many of the local people know what happened but probable threats ,and the fear of joining the girls in a lonely grave ,prevented tongues wagging .!
the first search when they, where alive, how Farr did the searchers go along the track.?
The bracelets are hair bands and you see them on Lisanne's arm when she's got her hair open. While in pictures with closed hair, you don't see them on her wrist.
Their camera is not about to die and in that case it would make much more sense to record a little video or picture of themselves instead of taking nearly 100 pics of the sky. And sry, if they'd have their rucksack, why not eat the stuff they had in it?
You clearly have no understanding of the night time photos.
@@Avid_Fan what is my understanding?
a phone is like a diary. private, do you not your best friends Coad for her phone, left it too late to ask her. Has she was dead?
Ya mataron a 2 de los q las mataron..los mismos de la banda los mataron.
Why do u have little numbers of subscribers for this great effort ?! Try reduce the time of episode or video and make smart intros check big channels of crimes profilers and copy their ideas 💡💡💡
It is very easy to forget that Lisanne and Kris arrived in Panana on 15th March, arrived in Boquete in the afternoon 29th March, and disappeared only 3 days later in the afteroon 1st April.
The conspiracy theorists talk as if they'd been in Boquete for months getting to know people and being being targeted for sinister puposes.
Just over two weeks after arriving in Panama they dissapeared, within four weeks of arriving in Panama they were dead.
With regards to the location of the night time photos and how they got to that location, I don't think we'll ever know. The location looks like it might have been at the bottom of a cliff, possibly near a river.
Lisanne and Kris might have fallen down that cliff and Lisanne might have broken her matatarsal bones in the fall as the remains of her foot had broken bones.
What we do know is that after choosing to hike off trail they became lost, and that is a key point. They didn't dissapear on the Pianista trail but after they had hiked off it. Photographic evidence proves this. Evidence of their phone usage also proves that they looked at Google Maps while on the Mirador summit so we can confidently speculate that they possibly chose to try amd find a natural feature such as a waterfall or stream or river.
We can only speculate after they went off trail.
I think that at some point they tried to turn around to find their way back to the Mirador summit but due to disorientation because they possibly followed cattle tracks and tracks made by flowing water during the wet seasons they became completely lost and realised that even if they could somehow find their way back that they couldn't make to the Mirador summit before night fall, (let alone decend down the other side to town), and started to panic, which is when the first emergency calls are made.
The first night must have been extremely frightening. I suspect they huddled and kept quiet; the night time jungle noises, the drop in temperature, and fear must have been terrible.
Personaly, the next day, as soon as it was possible to see, I would have walked up hill. No tracks? No problem - I'd have fought my way through and kept going up hill until I got a signal or reached the top.
Why these two intelligent women didn't do that, we'll never know. Perhaps Lisanne was too badly injured (foot), so it was easier to go down hill?
Or they followed a river/stream down hill hoping it would lead to people/a settlement? There are likely to be people/settlements/civilisation lower down than higher up and it is a basic survival tip to head down hill/down stream.
Something that's never mentioned is that the Netherlands is completeky flat and as they were from the Netherlands, Panama's hilly mountainous country with thick jungle/forest could have cometely disorientated/confused them.
You might also find this info' graphic interesting. If correct, (and it might not be), I've always felt it might provide a clue for the reasons behind the night time photos.
If acurate it shows that the Servicio Nacional de Fronteras
(Senafront) Special Forces might have been in the jungle at night looking for Lisanne and Kris using lights and loud speakers, unfortunately, we dont know what nights but if it was in the early hours of the 8th April, that's the answer to the camera flash question.
www.allmystery.de/i/t7d40d0d00_ibioblucptypqw.png
💔💔💔. There were more photos taken that were not released by the families due to the sad nature of the girls. I think seeing those pics would shed light on what really happened to the ladies. They can’t be worse than what I visualize in my own mine.
CRIME CATCH 👁👁💦
⭐️STRAIGHT OUTTA TEXAS
How did you know
@@دكتورةسوسن-ق2ص..there is an interview with Kris's father talking about the unseen photos, but he does say they don't offer anymore insight in to what happened.
The thing that makes me lean more towards the 3rd party theory is the charge on their cell phones. Phones in 2014 didnt hold there charge for all that long so I have a hard time believing either one of those phones could last 11days without being put on a charger at some point , especially since the phones were at 50% when they started and turning them off and on over and over again uses up alot of charge from the phones. My phone now got a very good battery life but it wouldnt last almost 2 weeks even if i started with 100%... its one question that really bothers me
the hair seems very clean.
Too clean for the context.
Most of the elements can be explained in a simple way, no need for extraordinary explanations. Since one year ago there are new elements (Romain's videos, research on the vegetation in the photos, virtual reconstructions of the night place, experiments with the same camera model etc) ; they most probably fell accidentally somewhere between the mirador and the 508 photo location, while oing back towards Boquete
Спасибо!🤗 интересно!
Weren't the bracelets hair ties?
Exactly!
I'm reading accross the RUclips platform going in circles 🔵 lost succumbed but some things just don't add up. 5 people dying within span of a year all linked to the case.taxi driver drowned face down in 4" of water 💧 !!!!!! 2) lost people in the jungle always gravitate towards /near water streams Couldn't the search party helicopters searched those areas more closely . !!!!!!!!!!????????!
Gang members due all the time it's not unusual
Youre way behind in this case, leaving unexplored the more nuanced details of their psychological states, their ¨friendship¨, their regret of going to Boquete and a long list of other things that 98% of youtubers dont even know about.
Their 'psychological state' is not evidencial proof that they were murdered. Keep up.
@@Avid_Fan Exactly.
@@positronikissthen why are you criticising her for not taking about it?
@@Avid_Fan Yes, im not.
Disagree about river story cause I guess there is something weird in those 90 dark pictures you could focus much in every image and gonna leave that as opened mystery until you give me the answer by yourself
Frist thing there is so much water in the area you could drown,they would not be thirsty,second,if the the serchers said they were not in the area they were not there..trust me
So would you drink from any water source given to you (puddles, pools, rivers etc)?
My question regarding water is though that why wasn't there an analysis of the water bottle? Did it have any water or sediment at the time of the finding at all?
Why so much faith in the searched
First, thank you so much for all your work in doing this research and bringing us all these details.
I don't see any evidence of photoshop. Don't see a dog. Nonsense.
The camera & missing photo. If I understand correctly, it is being posited that there *should* be a gap on the SD card. And there isn't. And this proves that it was deleted by external pc software? Firstly, how did "Chris" get his hands on the SD card to check for gaps? Secondly, having no gap points to exactly the opposite - the picture was deleted before the next one was taken, thus the space was re-allocated before the next photo was taken - no gap left because that free space was taken up by the next picture. However, this is all down to the way that the camera and SD card handles file storage, deletion and reallocation of storage space. I'm not convinced that "Chris" has "proven" anything.
I don't believe that they reached and crossed any monkey bridges. They would definitely have taken photos of the bridges if they had reached them safely. By 4:39 they were obviously in trouble. I think they had turned back to go home some time before this, probably by 4pm - as darkness would fall at 6:39 and they would need to get back to civilisation before that. I believe they were on their way back and had an encounter with someone who may have been following them - stalking them perhaps?
Shortly after this, I believe they were both being held somewhere. They had limited access to their phones, and needed to keep trying the emergency services for help. They had windows of opportunity for this twice a day. Kris removes her pin so that she can check for a signal and dial out as quickly as possible.
8th - all the night photos - this is probably the night that the girls died. Certainly Kris. I think the camera was not in the possession of the girls by this time.
I believe the last photo of Kris is of the front of her head, at a 3/4 angle with her hair completely covering her face. She's deceased. There's no reason for Lisanne to take this photo. I believe Lisanne had been dead for some time when this last photo was taken. It was taken by the abducter/murderer who was obsessed by the colour and texture of her hair. Her hair is dry and shiny because she hasn't been wandering about outdoors for 8 days - she has been indoors as a captive until this evening. Presumably with access to facilities to wash her hair. By the time the photo was taken, Kris may have been dead for some time - her face might have been covered by her hair because her murderer didn't want to look at it.
The girls were thrown from a high place into a ravine/river postmortem. Beautiful girls. Terrible story. RIP.
So that's my theory! So far! Thanks again for your hard work. :)
I love your theory.
😂😂😂😂😂
Of course you do. You're both pychopaths.@@Sandoz-tq7qj