Androl and his ability with was mentioned in CoT, so he’s technically a Jordan character. But I don’t think we saw him on screen til Sanderson’s books.
I love hearing the perspective of someone who's not a big fantasy reader on WoT, because that's where I was when I first read this series (not sure I'd recommend it as a starting point for non-Fantasy readers, but hey, worked for me). I also agree with Susanna that someone who has read a lot outside of the Fantasy genre, especially a lot of Classics, will probably be able to digest this series better than others. This was great. And impressive. I can't convince my wife to read a 300-page book I picked for her... not sure how you convinced yours to read the Wheel of Time! :)
@addy7464 I am currently reading the wheel of time for the 1st time. I started at the beginning of the year and now I am halfway through book 5. Besides reading some shorter 300 page books while I am on the wait list at the library I have been mainly reading these books. I read about an hour or 2 most days or 3 to 5 chapters a day. It is a great series. So far book 4 has been my favorite as I enjoyed a lot of the characters growth and individual adventures and the world building. I reccomend the series and so far I think it's worth it if you really love fantasy and world building.
There is a fundamentally wrong concept here in this video that makes a difference between the two series. He said he likes how the world changes the characters. But that’s wrong. Here in WoT the characters change the world. It’s dependent from them. There is a chosen one. And so on, it’s a hero quest. It’s a good vs evil book. Even the magic system as cool as it is typical. The races are Tolkien based. Now Malazan is not. What I just said is not there. There is no clear plot way. No “main hero”. He said hundreds of characters? No. Just a few important ones to be honest, the others are the slugs. In Malazan there are about 300 POVs and as there are no “chosen ones” like here, none of them is important but all of them are at the same time too. Because you witness there the world and they are too. There is a world war there and they fight it, the simple soldiers, mages, old races, no matter the POV, you see it how will go, from continent to continent. That’s the difference. So WoT is the hero masterpiece. Malazan is the masterpiece of themes, ideas, how to build up characters you will remember forever, scenes of only a few pages that make you stop and think. That’s Malazan. With a prose that’s quoted all the time.
It took me ten years to finish the series (college, grad school didn’t give me much time or motivation for fun reading). So glad she enjoyed it! It’s also one of my very favorite fantasy series ever, I still think very fondly of the characters and the time I spent with them.
Oooooookay. You sold me. I will pick it back up, but I will catch up on some other things like Stormlight and First Law first. You guys are soooo lovely together.
I read one or two WoT books a month until Path of Daggers, at which point I needed to take a break. That was in 2020, and I've since started a PhD and haven’t had time to keep going. But I'm going to pick it back up again after watching this video!
My favorite fantasy series. I'm discovering new fantasy and new authors of fantasy but I love Robert Jordan's epic so much. The battle scenes, the twists, the magic, the politics, the monsters, the characters...so well done.
I read the series as it released. Never even heard of The Slog until online discussion brought it up after the series announcement, At the time of releases I was so happy just to get more WoT I flew through each of the books and began the 1-2 year wait for the next.
Awesome video, love the WoT books! Rand, Nynaeve, Moraine, Lan and Androl are among my favorite characters and Towers of Midnight is my favorite book, love the Rand scenes in that book
After finishing the series this year, I couldn’t decide between giving a rating of 7 or a 3 out of ten. Now I’ve had time to sit, and now I’m caught between 4 and 8. A lot to love, but too much to hate for me personally. Namely, too much time spent on characters that are so annoying that reading them is straight up no fun.
I was totally obsessed an read the series in 5 months. ( I read the first 9 or 10 books many years ago, so this was a reread of most of the books for me) 😅 my favorite scenes is (Spoliers) The magic cleansing, Egwenes battle against the seanchan and especially when Perrin shows up in the battle teaching her about dreamwalkin/ battling and also Egwenes last battle in the last book, that was so epic! Also Nyeneves battle in the museum against Moghedien...that must have been one of the first epic battles in the series?
******CONTAINING HEAVY SPOILERS****** Really enjoyed watching this discussion. After the recent cacophony surrounding the TV Show, it was refreshing to catch up to this and reminisce about something much more worthwhile, in the Book Series. Thank You Both for the memories. One note i will make about what 'The Slog' was like for those reading Wheel of Time, Live, as it was being written and published. The first 6 books were released like Clockwork, and for us Fans who had become obsessed, the timing of the change in pace of publication schedule could not have been worse. After the High of Dumai's Wells, along with what that immediately precipitated, with respect to the closing wrap up and the associated prophecy... fans were salivating (I certainly was) for Book 7. But Crown of Swords was also the first book to be substantially delayed, after originally being scheduled as normal. Lord of Chaos had a negligible publication delay as well, but that was relatively incidental. For me, the delay was also exacerbated by my greater access to promotional material leading up to the normally scheduled release date. Some of the Prologue was disseminated on online Message Boards after Robert Jordan read from it at a Scandinavian Book Expo. Then the whole Prologue was published on the Tor Website. And it being pretty interesting, with some key moments for some side characters, really whetting the appetite. But magnifying all this for me was the Cover Blurb. Until then, each successive book Blurb had been unremarkable. There was no eye catching line and overall, they had no juice. They were just dry recitations of what was coming up. And for the most part, so was the Blurb for Crown of Swords. But then we got to the last paragraph and it said something to the effect of... '... And last of all, Rand al'Thor, The Dragon Reborn, must face the dread Forsaken Sammael, in Shadar Logoth, where the blood hungry mist Mashadar waits for prey.' Now given how Rand's 'Plan' had been a thing since the end of Fires of Heaven and periodically emphasised throughout Lord of Chaos, that last paragraph of the Blurb just screamed Perfection for me. And after the resounding crescendo of Dumai's Wells, Jordan had a lot to live up to! For me, this Blurb guaranteed that he would have an honest crack. Rand's 'Plan'was going to be put to the test against one of the 2 best military commanders in The War of Power, in The Age of Legends (the other being Demandred) and the fact we're already being told it will be in Shadar Logoth, pointed at misdirection and reversal... because no one in their right mind would seek to stage a fight there willingly. Also, as introduced in Fires of Heaven, Sammael would seek to initiate a duel... A rematch of Blademasters (because Rand was surely one now, given what he did to the Warders while captured, and given the greater influence Lews Therin seemed to have now) whose outcome would let Sammael finally remove the scar Lews Therin gave him, with victory over Rand. That tiny Blurb paragraph had all this percolating in my mind and I couldn't wait. With perhaps too much hubris, I would assume many others felt the same on reading it, but I was definitely hyped! Jordan was giving himself every chance to meet the expectations he set in Dumai's Wells, and probably exceed them. Or so I thought. Then the Book got delayed. And delayed again. In the end, the release of Crown of Swords took twice as long as any other Book of the Wheel of Time until then. And reading the conclusion was instead like falling backwards down a flight of stairs. It was disappointingly nebulous, in a mean spirited way, I felt. The 'Plan'was underwhelming. No Blademasters Duel. An obtuse leadup that included the whiff of Deus ex Machina. And finally, just a mean spirited, vague ending of the battle with Sammael. None of what I built up in my head happened! But not only that. What did happen was so deliberately sketchy, letdown didn't begin to describe what I was feeling. And so begins a decade of widening gaps between books. Books in which very little of substance happens. And when it does, it's ultimately disappointing. Take the Cleansing of the Taint for example. While the result was Fantastic, the denouement was flattened by just how lame the Forsaken were. Most of them seemed to be there for appearance's sake, with one of them in particular just present in order to get a brief bit from his POV, in order to hammer home perhaps Jordan's most vindictive retcon. Moreover, in keeping with the theme of unsatisfactory, or seemingly inconclusive endings that began in Crown of Swords, continued in Path of Daggers and culminated with Winter's Heart with no one subsequently believing the Taint was clean! While a critical assessment would say that some thematic markers about the nature of conflict and the seeming fruitlessness of endeavour no matter how spectacular the result, if you cannot get anyone to believe in it, were definitely being hit... It took 4-5 years to even get to read it and not only was the thematic trend downward, but virtually everything that happened around it was uninteresting, at best. And as you both emphasised, that torpor was given its nadir with Crossroads of Twilight - perhaps the only example in Series Fiction of literary spackle. So for those reading Wheel of Time on a Live Publication schedule, who gave The Slog its name... The feeling was both literal and figurative. And depending on when you started reading the Series, had been something you suffered in for almost 10 years. And for idiots like me, who chose absolutely the wrong time to magnify their fan investment and built up their preferred imagined scenarios as well... It was a Slog with DVD extras. Nowadays, I think it's largely moot. You neither have to wait for publication. Nor do you have to read it yourself, when, as you suggested, you have immaculately produced Audio Books, much more ubiquitous and convenient to listen to, to do the reading for you, while you tune in and out if you get jaded. So the Slog is largely a concept, or a critical assessment, instead of the overbearing morass it seemed to feel like... Especially if you overinvested like I did. If you made it this far, thanks for reading my Slog!
Thank you for that bit of history, especially about the cover blurb! (I only had to wait for book 14) I can't imagine how disappointed I would be if I had read that blurb about the duel between Rand and Sammael compared to what we got. Lucky for me, I enjoyed many moments of books 7, 8, and 9 and only thought there were a few 50-ish page sections of absolute slog, plus the entirety of book 10
Glad Susanna enjoyed it! You need to get her to read Realm of the Elderlings next! I think with her literary background that she'll love Robin Hobb's writing.
the Slog is real, but I think WH is pretty good - especially the ending There are def some things Thom says that makes it obvious he likes Moiraine. I think RJ would have flushed it out more, but BS did what he could with the notes RJ left behind...I always suspected they had met when they were younger in Cairhien (Moiraine royalty & Thom a young singer) and had something (probably just flirting) that they rekindled years later when they met again
I never liked the Moiraine & Thom thing, but the thing that made me feel better about it was the background that RJ saw them as the two halves of the Merlin myth/Legend, hence Thom Merrilin and she's the wise wizard who leads Rand to draw out the Sword in the Stone, etc... so he felt like they always had to come back together.
Min told Moirain in Baerlon in book 1 that she will marry Thom. It was hinted trough all the series :) [Book 4: Moirain told to the girls that she know who she would marry. Told Thom he will survive Tanchico. Also Min think multiple times that there was on viewing that she was wrong ect.]
Started reading the series in about 1993. Started re-reading in about 2005 and stopped when Robert Jordan passed away, picking up again when Brandon Sanderson's books were released. The slog is real but maybe worse for us back then because of how long we had to wait for the next book to come out. We finished the book and were like, what the heck... that covered hardly any time at all and nothing really happened. I am not one who could tell where RJ's writing stopped and Brandon Sanderson picked up. Probably because I have such a bad memory for detail. I never liked Nynaeve in the books... feels like the TV show has made her a more likeable character.
One aspect of the slog, especially for those who read the books at time of publication was the long wait between the books. Finally you have this new book in your hands and you read it in acouple of days or weeks. And once you are done you realise not much has happened and you need to wait another year or two (or more) until this story finally gets resolved. Slight spoiler: I felt like this especially for the Perrin story trying to safe Faile. In my memory, this took ages! When I listened to the audiobooks in preparation of the show, I did not feel the slog as much. However a friend if mine stopped reading and I convinced him that with Sanderson it gets better again. So he skipped several books with Wikipedia summaries.
I wrote my reply before I saw yours and pretty much said the same thing... the slog was so bad for readers waiting for the next book to come out. Reading with then next book already available might not have been so bad I suppose. One thing I will add here is that I was never a fan of Faile as a character and I think her arc with Perrin was more prominent in the slog, which made it worse for me.
Awesome! I still can't start this series...Not sure if I ever will. Your wife is awesome and she actually got something correct that so many booktubers get wrong. She said she read some of these books and listened to some on audiobook. So nice to hear someone admitting that you listen to audiobooks and read actual books. The person reading and recording the audiobook is doing the reading, you are the listener. I like audiobooks because they are convenient - but I choose to read 95% of my books as I can get more enveloped in the story that way. I'm listening to The Wandering Inn and Stoner on audiobook currently but I would not claim that I'm reading them, Im listening to the audiobook - in other words, they were read to me. Many booktubers claim they read x number of books for the month or year but they fail to differentiate between listening to audiobooks and actually reading digital or physical books. I love that your wife got this right! Much respect to her for that. Keep the great videos coming!
Perrin and Faile are my favorite characters ! Really enjoyed Perrins slow burn storyline and his personal character development throughout the series…. Lanfear would be a close third. I don’t know if it was intentional on Jordan’s part but there was a lot of tension between her and Rand that I thought was well done (I came close to wishing for her redemption).
Good video, but I would have liked more spoiler talk, because we are talking about a series whose last book was published over 10 years ago. One a very important thing that you have to address about the slog is we let older people who read the books when they came out is that there were 2 years between the books and you didn't get that much out of them and then it's something completely different than when you have all 14(15) books on the bookshelf and can read them at the pace you wish. When I re-read the series about a year ago, I didn't feel it compared to waiting 2 years and getting the book read and almost nothing has happened. In my opinion, books 7-10 could be reduced to 2 or 3 books, so they would have been better. I have many favorite scenes from the books but one of them is when Mat addresses Egwene by her full title in Salidar before proceeding to Ebou Dar. It shows the full character of Mats, he is not just a joker who travels around and pranks everyone, he is also a person who takes care of his loved ones. And that's one of the reasons why he's my favorite character in the books, he has so many sides. Then he also has the relationship that makes the most sense in the whole series and then I'm not talking about his relationship with Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag, but his friendship relationship with Birgitte, the two of them together only mean one thing, trouble for someone. Then his relationships with many others such as Thom, Olver and Noal are also absolutely fantastic
I have a recommendation for you guys - a podcast called Wheel Takes. Its a husband and wife reading the books and doing one to three chapters per episode. It's incredibly in depth and super fun. Gus, the husband, has read the whole series and his wife Ali is a first time reader. Interestingly Ali clocked the Thom/Moiraine romance in Book 1!!! They're into Knife of Dreams now so she still doesn't know what is going to happen but she's adamant that Moiraine is alive and that Thom is going to rescue her. So there is foreshadowing hahaha.
The show is a lost cause. The show runner and especially the writing staff do not like the books, or men in general. Everything from foundational lore, magic systems, plot point and character development - the entire framework of the story is changed for whatever their agenda is. You were right about Crossroads and the slog too. I am a big fan of the series, but it gets ridiculous at that point. The absolute worst tragedy of the show being so poor is that if it was an honest and intentional adaptation of the books, it would have had the opportunity to edit down the entirety of the slog to only the essential bits, which would fix the biggest problems with the books.
I really enjoyed Moiraine's return, because whereas before she was obsessed with her mission and thinking it all rested on her shoulders, when she was rescued, her arc completion was that she was content with the role she ended up playing in the story, which was to save Rand from his greatest danger, Lanfear. In Fires, when Lanfear has the angreal and is enraged, Rand stands no chance and is either going to die or be broken. It is one of the most terrifying scenes in the entire series looking back on it, and in that moment, Moiraine, dainty, short, small, royal Moiraine, whose greatest skills are manipulation and spellcasting, linebacker tackles the most powerful Forsaken. I was only disappointed that the event wasn't whispered around the Tower until she gained legendary status as one of the greatest Aes Sedai ever to wear the shawl. Moiraine also deserved a rest from the long, torturous situation she endured in the Tower of Ghenjei.
19:35 I literally called Thom and Moiraine from Book 4. The exact scene was when Moiraine was talking to the girls (Elayne, Nyanaeve, and Elayne) in the Stone of Tear and she said "I know the face of the man I will marry more than you three" Or something along that line, and at that point the only "main" male characters are Thom, Lan and the Boys, so my first thought was, "RJ isn't just going to choose some random side character... and it isn't going to be Lan or one of the boys so.... THOM??" and then later on she went to see Thom by herself out of the blue and apologized for not being there to heal his leg, and at that point I was like YEP! She likes Thom.. She then "dies" THE NEXT BOOK and gives 2 letters to 2 people. Rand... and Thom.
I enjoyed the strife between male and female, because the intention of Jordan in the story was to point out that the strife between them was a huge factor in the world being broken. The Dragon (male) and the other highest female Aes Sedai disagree, and their failure to work together results in a failure to seal up the Dark One. The uncomfortableness when the Asha'man and Aes Sedai begin to interact was palpable, but after the cleansing when they start working together is when the tide truly starts to turn against the shadow. Androl and a red sister (ah the perfect choice) learning to trust each other and depend on each other was just a fantastic relationship.
Thank goodness I am not the only one who was surprised about Tom and Moiraine. That was rather unfair as any foreshadowing or hints would be so many books back that it makes the reader frustrated. That's a lot of work to go back and try to find what you missed but apparently there is nothing. It's just a surprise twist.
I would not have killed Egwene (but I haven't yet bothered to sit down and write a 14 book series so my opinion means nothing) because she went through so much to become Amyrlin that she more than anyone deserved to serve in her position and take on the Seanchan, outlive Tuon and free the enslaved channelers. If the story needed deaths, I would have killed Perrin. Faile would bear him a son she conceived before the last battle and Perrins soul would be able to communicate with his son through his power-wrought weapons as they are imprinted by the one who wrought them. Making a foundation for a cool sequel series. Perrin would kill Slayer earlier on and then have Padan Fain to deal with, taking the dagger that is meant for Rand and making Mat upset that the dagger should have taken him since he was the fool that stole it. But Perrin's Taverin status is what allows the pattern to bind around the dagger that is killing him and seal away that evil, making a first of a kind imprint/image of a Taverin's soul on the pattern, allowing Perrin to pass on, but also be a hero of the horn and a lord of the realm of dreams (sorry, I listened to the audio books, I have no idea how all these names and places are spelled). Anyway, just some ideas.
@@libraryofaviking i just had a lot of time back then and was captivated by the world. 🤷 Only had the first 12 books. I had to wait several years before sanderson finished the series 😉
Most of the women characters are at some point. But Elayne gained in my eyes a lot when she apologised for treating Mat bad when he came to save the girls. It’s been a while, so I forget, it was Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne, right, and of the three, only Elaine apologised way later for treating Mat like an annoyance when he came to save them. The other two did not.
Ok now I actually don’t feel so bad anymore about getting stuck on Crossroads of Twilight which got me into a severe WoT reading slump, I didn’t really know about the slog discussion being a thing 😅😂
Breaks my heart... Crossroads of Twilight is easily the worst of the books, RJ himself later said he was trying a few new things and it just didn't work. Knife of Dreams is better (probably average for the series) and books 12-14 are all in the top 5-6 books of the series (my personal favorite is book 4, the Shadow Rising, but books 12-14 come it right below that). If you pick the series back up again, I'd just read summaries of books 1-10 (they're online) and then just launch into Knife of Dreams, I think it makes it all worth it.
@@mwill8248 I definitely will pick the series back up again! Never really considered to stop reading it altogether. Book 10 just kind of caused a time gap in my WoT reading where I had planned none… But the summaries are a good idea to get back into it, thanks for the idea
I had to stop reading after what happened with Mat on book 7, that was treated as a funny moment, but was actually something serious. That annoyed me to the point of not being able to carry on with the series.
Spoilers. It was a great example of gender reversal, fit very well in the local culture, and the jokes came from people that hold slaves. Also, this book came out way before metoo and the like, so it probably would have been handled differently today.
This is the thing that most book readers probably hate the most. If it helps, Mat reflects on it and talks about it later and it's not always played for laughs. But I can't fault your reaction.
Always interesting to see a new reader perspective. Favorite character Androl? *closes video* Joking *ahem* aside, the Thom and Moiraine romance was hinted at from book 1 and was clear it was going to be a thing since book 4.
YOUR WRONG!!!! Not really I just feel like that is what people expect people to say! lol Androl was SUPPOSED to be logain's arc and sanderson felt like there weren't enough people to keep track of so he added some more... UGH... Oh, and egwene sucks.
I also love Androl! And I believe he was entirely Sanderson's character so we wouldn't have him if Jordan finished the series
Androl and his ability with was mentioned in CoT, so he’s technically a Jordan character. But I don’t think we saw him on screen til Sanderson’s books.
I love hearing the perspective of someone who's not a big fantasy reader on WoT, because that's where I was when I first read this series (not sure I'd recommend it as a starting point for non-Fantasy readers, but hey, worked for me). I also agree with Susanna that someone who has read a lot outside of the Fantasy genre, especially a lot of Classics, will probably be able to digest this series better than others. This was great. And impressive. I can't convince my wife to read a 300-page book I picked for her... not sure how you convinced yours to read the Wheel of Time! :)
This is one of my favorite series of all time. Re-read them a dozen times. Unfortunately, I was deeply disappointed by the Amazon adaptation.
If you don mind me asking.....How much time does it took you to finish it the first time?
@addy7464 I am currently reading the wheel of time for the 1st time. I started at the beginning of the year and now I am halfway through book 5. Besides reading some shorter 300 page books while I am on the wait list at the library I have been mainly reading these books. I read about an hour or 2 most days or 3 to 5 chapters a day.
It is a great series. So far book 4 has been my favorite as I enjoyed a lot of the characters growth and individual adventures and the world building.
I reccomend the series and so far I think it's worth it if you really love fantasy and world building.
@@gigglingchicken8444 your reading speed is more than impressive.... I can hardly read a chapter a day..... The most i have read in a day is 60 pages
Well. I'm just getting started with Malazan. And here you are encouraging us to give The Wheel of Time a try. Which I probably will. Thank you.
There is a fundamentally wrong concept here in this video that makes a difference between the two series. He said he likes how the world changes the characters. But that’s wrong. Here in WoT the characters change the world. It’s dependent from them. There is a chosen one. And so on, it’s a hero quest. It’s a good vs evil book. Even the magic system as cool as it is typical. The races are Tolkien based. Now Malazan is not. What I just said is not there. There is no clear plot way. No “main hero”. He said hundreds of characters? No. Just a few important ones to be honest, the others are the slugs. In Malazan there are about 300 POVs and as there are no “chosen ones” like here, none of them is important but all of them are at the same time too. Because you witness there the world and they are too. There is a world war there and they fight it, the simple soldiers, mages, old races, no matter the POV, you see it how will go, from continent to continent. That’s the difference. So WoT is the hero masterpiece. Malazan is the masterpiece of themes, ideas, how to build up characters you will remember forever, scenes of only a few pages that make you stop and think. That’s Malazan. With a prose that’s quoted all the time.
😄
You guys are obviously deeply in love
It took me ten years to finish the series (college, grad school didn’t give me much time or motivation for fun reading). So glad she enjoyed it! It’s also one of my very favorite fantasy series ever, I still think very fondly of the characters and the time I spent with them.
Omg college school doesn't lets you read at all
I think another character with an interesting arc is Verin Mathwin. Trying to figure out her loyalties and her plans through the books.
Absolutely interesting character!
Great way to discuss WoT. I liked this style.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Oooooookay. You sold me. I will pick it back up, but I will catch up on some other things like Stormlight and First Law first. You guys are soooo lovely together.
I hope you will enjoy it if you pick it back up! Thank you!
Aww I love this!
I convinced my fiancé to read WoT last year, and he finished just before we went to WotCon this year 😊
Thank you! That's amazing!
I read one or two WoT books a month until Path of Daggers, at which point I needed to take a break. That was in 2020, and I've since started a PhD and haven’t had time to keep going. But I'm going to pick it back up again after watching this video!
My favorite fantasy series. I'm discovering new fantasy and new authors of fantasy but I love Robert Jordan's epic so much. The battle scenes, the twists, the magic, the politics, the monsters, the characters...so well done.
I read the series as it released. Never even heard of The Slog until online discussion brought it up after the series announcement, At the time of releases I was so happy just to get more WoT I flew through each of the books and began the 1-2 year wait for the next.
Awesome video, love the WoT books! Rand, Nynaeve, Moraine, Lan and Androl are among my favorite characters and Towers of Midnight is my favorite book, love the Rand scenes in that book
After finishing the series this year, I couldn’t decide between giving a rating of 7 or a 3 out of ten. Now I’ve had time to sit, and now I’m caught between 4 and 8. A lot to love, but too much to hate for me personally. Namely, too much time spent on characters that are so annoying that reading them is straight up no fun.
I was totally obsessed an read the series in 5 months. ( I read the first 9 or 10 books many years ago, so this was a reread of most of the books for me) 😅 my favorite scenes is
(Spoliers)
The magic cleansing, Egwenes battle against the seanchan and especially when Perrin shows up in the battle teaching her about dreamwalkin/ battling and also Egwenes last battle in the last book, that was so epic! Also Nyeneves battle in the museum against Moghedien...that must have been one of the first epic battles in the series?
******CONTAINING HEAVY SPOILERS******
Really enjoyed watching this discussion.
After the recent cacophony surrounding the TV Show, it was refreshing to catch up to this and reminisce about something much more worthwhile, in the Book Series.
Thank You Both for the memories.
One note i will make about what 'The Slog' was like for those reading Wheel of Time, Live, as it was being written and published.
The first 6 books were released like Clockwork, and for us Fans who had become obsessed, the timing of the change in pace of publication schedule could not have been worse.
After the High of Dumai's Wells, along with what that immediately precipitated, with respect to the closing wrap up and the associated prophecy... fans were salivating (I certainly was) for Book 7.
But Crown of Swords was also the first book to be substantially delayed, after originally being scheduled as normal. Lord of Chaos had a negligible publication delay as well, but that was relatively incidental.
For me, the delay was also exacerbated by my greater access to promotional material leading up to the normally scheduled release date. Some of the Prologue was disseminated on online Message Boards after Robert Jordan read from it at a Scandinavian Book Expo. Then the whole Prologue was published on the Tor Website. And it being pretty interesting, with some key moments for some side characters, really whetting the appetite.
But magnifying all this for me was the Cover Blurb. Until then, each successive book Blurb had been unremarkable. There was no eye catching line and overall, they had no juice. They were just dry recitations of what was coming up.
And for the most part, so was the Blurb for Crown of Swords.
But then we got to the last paragraph and it said something to the effect of...
'... And last of all, Rand al'Thor, The Dragon Reborn, must face the dread Forsaken Sammael, in Shadar Logoth, where the blood hungry mist Mashadar waits for prey.'
Now given how Rand's 'Plan' had been a thing since the end of Fires of Heaven and periodically emphasised throughout Lord of Chaos, that last paragraph of the Blurb just screamed Perfection for me.
And after the resounding crescendo of Dumai's Wells, Jordan had a lot to live up to!
For me, this Blurb guaranteed that he would have an honest crack.
Rand's 'Plan'was going to be put to the test against one of the 2 best military commanders in The War of Power, in The Age of Legends (the other being Demandred) and the fact we're already being told it will be in Shadar Logoth, pointed at misdirection and reversal... because no one in their right mind would seek to stage a fight there willingly.
Also, as introduced in Fires of Heaven, Sammael would seek to initiate a duel... A rematch of Blademasters (because Rand was surely one now, given what he did to the Warders while captured, and given the greater influence Lews Therin seemed to have now) whose outcome would let Sammael finally remove the scar Lews Therin gave him, with victory over Rand.
That tiny Blurb paragraph had all this percolating in my mind and I couldn't wait. With perhaps too much hubris, I would assume many others felt the same on reading it, but I was definitely hyped!
Jordan was giving himself every chance to meet the expectations he set in Dumai's Wells, and probably exceed them.
Or so I thought.
Then the Book got delayed.
And delayed again. In the end, the release of Crown of Swords took twice as long as any other Book of the Wheel of Time until then.
And reading the conclusion was instead like falling backwards down a flight of stairs. It was disappointingly nebulous, in a mean spirited way, I felt.
The 'Plan'was underwhelming.
No Blademasters Duel.
An obtuse leadup that included the whiff of Deus ex Machina.
And finally, just a mean spirited, vague ending of the battle with Sammael.
None of what I built up in my head happened! But not only that. What did happen was so deliberately sketchy, letdown didn't begin to describe what I was feeling.
And so begins a decade of widening gaps between books. Books in which very little of substance happens. And when it does, it's ultimately disappointing.
Take the Cleansing of the Taint for example. While the result was Fantastic, the denouement was flattened by just how lame the Forsaken were. Most of them seemed to be there for appearance's sake, with one of them in particular just present in order to get a brief bit from his POV, in order to hammer home perhaps Jordan's most vindictive retcon.
Moreover, in keeping with the theme of unsatisfactory, or seemingly inconclusive endings that began in Crown of Swords, continued in Path of Daggers and culminated with Winter's Heart with no one subsequently believing the Taint was clean!
While a critical assessment would say that some thematic markers about the nature of conflict and the seeming fruitlessness of endeavour no matter how spectacular the result, if you cannot get anyone to believe in it, were definitely being hit... It took 4-5 years to even get to read it and not only was the thematic trend downward, but virtually everything that happened around it was uninteresting, at best.
And as you both emphasised, that torpor was given its nadir with Crossroads of Twilight - perhaps the only example in Series Fiction of literary spackle.
So for those reading Wheel of Time on a Live Publication schedule, who gave The Slog its name... The feeling was both literal and figurative. And depending on when you started reading the Series, had been something you suffered in for almost 10 years.
And for idiots like me, who chose absolutely the wrong time to magnify their fan investment and built up their preferred imagined scenarios as well... It was a Slog with DVD extras.
Nowadays, I think it's largely moot. You neither have to wait for publication. Nor do you have to read it yourself, when, as you suggested, you have immaculately produced Audio Books, much more ubiquitous and convenient to listen to, to do the reading for you, while you tune in and out if you get jaded.
So the Slog is largely a concept, or a critical assessment, instead of the overbearing morass it seemed to feel like... Especially if you overinvested like I did.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading my Slog!
Thank you for that bit of history, especially about the cover blurb! (I only had to wait for book 14)
I can't imagine how disappointed I would be if I had read that blurb about the duel between Rand and Sammael compared to what we got. Lucky for me, I enjoyed many moments of books 7, 8, and 9 and only thought there were a few 50-ish page sections of absolute slog, plus the entirety of book 10
Glad Susanna enjoyed it! You need to get her to read Realm of the Elderlings next! I think with her literary background that she'll love Robin Hobb's writing.
I love Androl. The show is an abomination of a fan fiction. Ur wife is a good egg. Carry on :-)
the Slog is real, but I think WH is pretty good - especially the ending
There are def some things Thom says that makes it obvious he likes Moiraine. I think RJ would have flushed it out more, but BS did what he could with the notes RJ left behind...I always suspected they had met when they were younger in Cairhien (Moiraine royalty & Thom a young singer) and had something (probably just flirting) that they rekindled years later when they met again
I never liked the Moiraine & Thom thing, but the thing that made me feel better about it was the background that RJ saw them as the two halves of the Merlin myth/Legend, hence Thom Merrilin and she's the wise wizard who leads Rand to draw out the Sword in the Stone, etc... so he felt like they always had to come back together.
Min told Moirain in Baerlon in book 1 that she will marry Thom. It was hinted trough all the series :) [Book 4: Moirain told to the girls that she know who she would marry. Told Thom he will survive Tanchico. Also Min think multiple times that there was on viewing that she was wrong ect.]
Started reading the series in about 1993. Started re-reading in about 2005 and stopped when Robert Jordan passed away, picking up again when Brandon Sanderson's books were released. The slog is real but maybe worse for us back then because of how long we had to wait for the next book to come out. We finished the book and were like, what the heck... that covered hardly any time at all and nothing really happened. I am not one who could tell where RJ's writing stopped and Brandon Sanderson picked up. Probably because I have such a bad memory for detail. I never liked Nynaeve in the books... feels like the TV show has made her a more likeable character.
It must have been a pain for the readers that had to wait for the books to come out!
One aspect of the slog, especially for those who read the books at time of publication was the long wait between the books. Finally you have this new book in your hands and you read it in acouple of days or weeks. And once you are done you realise not much has happened and you need to wait another year or two (or more) until this story finally gets resolved.
Slight spoiler:
I felt like this especially for the Perrin story trying to safe Faile. In my memory, this took ages!
When I listened to the audiobooks in preparation of the show, I did not feel the slog as much.
However a friend if mine stopped reading and I convinced him that with Sanderson it gets better again. So he skipped several books with Wikipedia summaries.
I wrote my reply before I saw yours and pretty much said the same thing... the slog was so bad for readers waiting for the next book to come out. Reading with then next book already available might not have been so bad I suppose. One thing I will add here is that I was never a fan of Faile as a character and I think her arc with Perrin was more prominent in the slog, which made it worse for me.
Awesome! I still can't start this series...Not sure if I ever will. Your wife is awesome and she actually got something correct that so many booktubers get wrong. She said she read some of these books and listened to some on audiobook. So nice to hear someone admitting that you listen to audiobooks and read actual books. The person reading and recording the audiobook is doing the reading, you are the listener. I like audiobooks because they are convenient - but I choose to read 95% of my books as I can get more enveloped in the story that way. I'm listening to The Wandering Inn and Stoner on audiobook currently but I would not claim that I'm reading them, Im listening to the audiobook - in other words, they were read to me. Many booktubers claim they read x number of books for the month or year but they fail to differentiate between listening to audiobooks and actually reading digital or physical books. I love that your wife got this right! Much respect to her for that. Keep the great videos coming!
Perrin and Faile are my favorite characters ! Really enjoyed Perrins slow burn storyline and his personal character development throughout the series…. Lanfear would be a close third. I don’t know if it was intentional on Jordan’s part but there was a lot of tension between her and Rand that I thought was well done (I came close to wishing for her redemption).
Good video, but I would have liked more spoiler talk, because we are talking about a series whose last book was published over 10 years ago.
One a very important thing that you have to address about the slog is we let older people who read the books when they came out is that there were 2 years between the books and you didn't get that much out of them and then it's something completely different than when you have all 14(15) books on the bookshelf and can read them at the pace you wish. When I re-read the series about a year ago, I didn't feel it compared to waiting 2 years and getting the book read and almost nothing has happened. In my opinion, books 7-10 could be reduced to 2 or 3 books, so they would have been better.
I have many favorite scenes from the books but one of them is when Mat addresses Egwene by her full title in Salidar before proceeding to Ebou Dar. It shows the full character of Mats, he is not just a joker who travels around and pranks everyone, he is also a person who takes care of his loved ones. And that's one of the reasons why he's my favorite character in the books, he has so many sides. Then he also has the relationship that makes the most sense in the whole series and then I'm not talking about his relationship with Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag, but his friendship relationship with Birgitte, the two of them together only mean one thing, trouble for someone. Then his relationships with many others such as Thom, Olver and Noal are also absolutely fantastic
I have a recommendation for you guys - a podcast called Wheel Takes. Its a husband and wife reading the books and doing one to three chapters per episode. It's incredibly in depth and super fun. Gus, the husband, has read the whole series and his wife Ali is a first time reader. Interestingly Ali clocked the Thom/Moiraine romance in Book 1!!! They're into Knife of Dreams now so she still doesn't know what is going to happen but she's adamant that Moiraine is alive and that Thom is going to rescue her. So there is foreshadowing hahaha.
The show is a lost cause. The show runner and especially the writing staff do not like the books, or men in general. Everything from foundational lore, magic systems, plot point and character development - the entire framework of the story is changed for whatever their agenda is.
You were right about Crossroads and the slog too. I am a big fan of the series, but it gets ridiculous at that point. The absolute worst tragedy of the show being so poor is that if it was an honest and intentional adaptation of the books, it would have had the opportunity to edit down the entirety of the slog to only the essential bits, which would fix the biggest problems with the books.
I really enjoyed Moiraine's return, because whereas before she was obsessed with her mission and thinking it all rested on her shoulders, when she was rescued, her arc completion was that she was content with the role she ended up playing in the story, which was to save Rand from his greatest danger, Lanfear. In Fires, when Lanfear has the angreal and is enraged, Rand stands no chance and is either going to die or be broken. It is one of the most terrifying scenes in the entire series looking back on it, and in that moment, Moiraine, dainty, short, small, royal Moiraine, whose greatest skills are manipulation and spellcasting, linebacker tackles the most powerful Forsaken. I was only disappointed that the event wasn't whispered around the Tower until she gained legendary status as one of the greatest Aes Sedai ever to wear the shawl. Moiraine also deserved a rest from the long, torturous situation she endured in the Tower of Ghenjei.
We got her!
19:35 I literally called Thom and Moiraine from Book 4. The exact scene was when Moiraine was talking to the girls (Elayne, Nyanaeve, and Elayne) in the Stone of Tear and she said "I know the face of the man I will marry more than you three" Or something along that line, and at that point the only "main" male characters are Thom, Lan and the Boys, so my first thought was, "RJ isn't just going to choose some random side character... and it isn't going to be Lan or one of the boys so.... THOM??" and then later on she went to see Thom by herself out of the blue and apologized for not being there to heal his leg, and at that point I was like YEP! She likes Thom.. She then "dies" THE NEXT BOOK and gives 2 letters to 2 people. Rand... and Thom.
I enjoyed the strife between male and female, because the intention of Jordan in the story was to point out that the strife between them was a huge factor in the world being broken. The Dragon (male) and the other highest female Aes Sedai disagree, and their failure to work together results in a failure to seal up the Dark One. The uncomfortableness when the Asha'man and Aes Sedai begin to interact was palpable, but after the cleansing when they start working together is when the tide truly starts to turn against the shadow. Androl and a red sister (ah the perfect choice) learning to trust each other and depend on each other was just a fantastic relationship.
Thom is brilliant, charming, wise, bold, interesting, mature. He is a perfect love for Moirraine. The age is irrelevant to many people.
Thank goodness I am not the only one who was surprised about Tom and Moiraine. That was rather unfair as any foreshadowing or hints would be so many books back that it makes the reader frustrated. That's a lot of work to go back and try to find what you missed but apparently there is nothing. It's just a surprise twist.
I was gutted when he died, thank God for Sanderson.
Moirrraine saved the disaster at the meeting of the Monarchs. That was irreplaceable.
I would not have killed Egwene (but I haven't yet bothered to sit down and write a 14 book series so my opinion means nothing) because she went through so much to become Amyrlin that she more than anyone deserved to serve in her position and take on the Seanchan, outlive Tuon and free the enslaved channelers.
If the story needed deaths, I would have killed Perrin. Faile would bear him a son she conceived before the last battle and Perrins soul would be able to communicate with his son through his power-wrought weapons as they are imprinted by the one who wrought them. Making a foundation for a cool sequel series. Perrin would kill Slayer earlier on and then have Padan Fain to deal with, taking the dagger that is meant for Rand and making Mat upset that the dagger should have taken him since he was the fool that stole it. But Perrin's Taverin status is what allows the pattern to bind around the dagger that is killing him and seal away that evil, making a first of a kind imprint/image of a Taverin's soul on the pattern, allowing Perrin to pass on, but also be a hero of the horn and a lord of the realm of dreams (sorry, I listened to the audio books, I have no idea how all these names and places are spelled).
Anyway, just some ideas.
Wheel of time is also my favourites series. Maybe because it was my first really big epic fantasy series, but hey! Who cares!
Why is it not worth it if its your first series? Wheel of Time was my first book series and i loved it
I think she meant starting to read recreationally. So read a dozen stand alone books, then you can be more ready to jump into a longer investment.
Hi 👋 great video 🎥
Hey, thanks
Just wanted to say your wife is lovely! Hi!
Thank you! I totally agree!
Thanks for saying wife, i almost thought that was your sister
Audio books are available where?? I am on book 8 and slog is real
audible
If you buy the Kindle editions, you could get the Audible versions cheaper.
>2 years is a fast read of WoT
*me that read 1-11 books in around 1-2 months period when i first picked them up* 😅
WHAT!? you read the whole series in 2 months!? How 😝
@@libraryofaviking i just had a lot of time back then and was captivated by the world. 🤷
Only had the first 12 books. I had to wait several years before sanderson finished the series 😉
@@Zivilin Still incredible!
Great review/comments, agree with lots of them (especially Elayne being quite annoying at times!)
Thank you! Elayne is definitely annoying at times haha
Most of the women characters are at some point. But Elayne gained in my eyes a lot when she apologised for treating Mat bad when he came to save the girls. It’s been a while, so I forget, it was Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne, right, and of the three, only Elaine apologised way later for treating Mat like an annoyance when he came to save them. The other two did not.
Ok now I actually don’t feel so bad anymore about getting stuck on Crossroads of Twilight which got me into a severe WoT reading slump, I didn’t really know about the slog discussion being a thing 😅😂
Breaks my heart... Crossroads of Twilight is easily the worst of the books, RJ himself later said he was trying a few new things and it just didn't work. Knife of Dreams is better (probably average for the series) and books 12-14 are all in the top 5-6 books of the series (my personal favorite is book 4, the Shadow Rising, but books 12-14 come it right below that). If you pick the series back up again, I'd just read summaries of books 1-10 (they're online) and then just launch into Knife of Dreams, I think it makes it all worth it.
@@mwill8248 I definitely will pick the series back up again! Never really considered to stop reading it altogether. Book 10 just kind of caused a time gap in my WoT reading where I had planned none… But the summaries are a good idea to get back into it, thanks for the idea
I don't blame you but hope you will get back to the series somehow!
@@libraryofaviking I will definitely get back to it. Even though book 10 can be a bit hard to get through, it’s a great, epic series!
What does Susannah normally read. How much out of character is Wheel for her,I could never get my wife to read scifi or fantasy.
I had to stop reading after what happened with Mat on book 7, that was treated as a funny moment, but was actually something serious. That annoyed me to the point of not being able to carry on with the series.
Spoilers.
It was a great example of gender reversal, fit very well in the local culture, and the jokes came from people that hold slaves. Also, this book came out way before metoo and the like, so it probably would have been handled differently today.
This is the thing that most book readers probably hate the most. If it helps, Mat reflects on it and talks about it later and it's not always played for laughs. But I can't fault your reaction.
IMO Winters heart could have been 4 chapters in another book.. he went about 5000% too far into the Perrin.. um.. Fail.. relationship lol
Always interesting to see a new reader perspective. Favorite character Androl? *closes video*
Joking *ahem* aside, the Thom and Moiraine romance was hinted at from book 1 and was clear it was going to be a thing since book 4.
second
Please never mention the tv series again. It's just a terrible fan-fiction rewrite, and it needs to die.
I dont like slow paced. Read book 5 and keep postponing book 6 for more than 2 years now 😅😊
The moment you said you liked egghead is the moment I clicked off. Byyyeeeeee
Honestly I don't get WoT, can't even finish book2. The characters all suck. Rofl
YOUR WRONG!!!! Not really I just feel like that is what people expect people to say! lol Androl was SUPPOSED to be logain's arc and sanderson felt like there weren't enough people to keep track of so he added some more... UGH... Oh, and egwene sucks.