Charitable status should be earned by charitable activity. There should be a high standards set out to achieve in order to obtain charity status tax breaks. This should be something examined across all the charity sector as part of a "levelling up agenda". This attack on private schools seems to me simply ideological motivated. Such motivations rarely benefit those less well off in society.
Fiona’s entire argument is that ‘it’s unfair’ that some people are richer and can provide more resources for their children. It boils down to a mere whine. There are so many flaws in her reasoning it’s a joke: 1. If there is so much capacity in the London system, why not reduce its size and spend the additional cash on existing pupils, thus closing the gap on funding per pupil? 2. If the 11 plus can be gamed by coaching, then why don’t we simply ask state primary schools also give coaching to ‘game’ it? And what makes her think that parents won’t just also spend money on tutoring for GCSEs if they are forced to go to state schools? 3. If state schools are “much better than private school parents think”, then what’s the problem in the first place?
Fiona should apply her logic to all those children of famous parents that slip into to the same industry, from acting, music, sport, TV, national politics, and just being an 'airhead celebrity'. It will make the World worse, especially with all the bureaucracy involved, but that is what it is all about. :)
She is the problem. She believes that money brings civilization instead of the exact other way round! So many like her have too much power hence our society is collapsing! They are constantly thinking the wrong way round for pretty much everything!
@@legion1791 Fiona appears to think that sending your child to a private school is all there is to it: put one child and loads of money through the machine, wait ten years, and out pops 3 A-stars attached to a prospective undergraduate! If only she realised that private schools have special, very secret, machines with USB 3.2 connections that down load information, confidence and important career enhancing contacts to their pupils, she would be even more jealous of their good fortune.
She is wrong and what gives her the right to stop parents who want the best for their children choosing a school and are willing to PAY for it? Equality gone mad and look at the dire straits we are in because of it. Butt out and leave independent schools as they are.
Interesting points on both sides. My local schools are awful so I'm either moving house or sending my kids private. I can't afford to do both and I shouldn't have to do either.
@@jamesharrison3134 Well perhaps you could describe the nature of a society that displays the attributes found in all aspects of life in Britian, well-reported abroad, but only partially in that country? If you do not live there, well done, if you do, I accept the word 'hellhole' is lazy and shorthand, maybe received as rough/offensive, but with such truly appalling things that have happened there, is the word not more rather than less accurate?
@@terencefield3204 you seem to be under the delusion that a utopia exists anywhere. Regardless, I happen to be blessed with a nature that finds happiness wherever I go. Try meditating.
@@jamesharrison3134 I expected that you would avoid reality and try to put words in my mouth.Pitiful schoolboy stuff.Your self satisfaction is a touch pitiful, if not downright mean minded as suffering is all around you there.Standard nimbyBrit stuff.
No. There should be more private schools and the ones we have should be protected. Especially given the shocking standard of education available and the immigrant children filling school places at the rate of knots
Putting up independent school fees will also mean more schools going bust. It's been happening for many years, particularly in prep schools, due to school fees outpacing inflation. Extra tax will accelerate that. Ms Millar should just come out and say she wants to make private schools illegal, as she clearly does. There are other inequalities in life. Some children suffer when their father runs away, like my cousins. They were privately schooled at great sacrifice by my aunt, helped by my parents. Would Ms Millar be happier if that hadn't been possible?
Most of them will be. You make an excellent point though, anyone using private schools and private medical are saving the tax payer a fortune. Its costs about £7k per year to educate in the state sector so someone who send their child to a private school for 13 years saves teh taxpayer £91,000. They then save us even more with private health insurance.
Of course we had excellent education in grammar schools but they had to go. Now they are after private schools. These people won’t rest until every child thinks the same nonsense as them.
They did not have to go. Your foul state socialist bigots destroyed them.The rest of the lamentable class ridden misery is history, but the causes fought over like bulldogs in a pit. Idiotic little society.
Grammar schools are outdated. they were for the 20% needed for academic jobs BACK IN THE FIFTIES. We have a National Curriculum that tells them what they must learn but it doesn't apply to independent schools.
@mikeblain9973 she is correct she is talking about the 11 plus exam still taken in Kènt. Wealthy parents will move near those schools and then pay for private tutors. Therefore gaming the system.
This constant moan of "is it fair" gets me so pi**ed off. I worked hard to be able to afford private education and medical care because I see every day how inept Government is at providing those two services. It is NOT about money, it is about delivery which is awful. And "fair" - please - this woman wants everybody to level down - if I want to work/save to have my position better than the next - I want to be able to do that. The thought of offering my family up on the altar of Governments whims/experiments/exception driving all the rules - not happening.
This woman just doesn’t listen. The crucial point was made by Toby around 9:00 - well-off parents will just buy houses in the expensive catchments of the top state schools. This already happens to a large degree. If you think abolishing private schools will overcome the class divide you haven’t fully understood the dynamics of class in the U.K.
these hard up parents will suddenly find a load of money to move house to be near a top state school - well fees/stamp duty etc are likely to be 50k or so - tiny violin
THis is the recipe of the particularly British state - socialists pretty much uninterrupted since 1945. The 'Tories' were avowed 'we are all socialisrts now' from 45 to 79. The ONLY regime that modestly cut the state spend, added a modicum of personal wealth and inter-genertional wealth was the Thatcher regime. After that sharp reversal. The consequences of state fiscal and monetary policy was de-industrialisation, cultural evisceration, the creation of a poverty leve find nowhere else in the developed world - even thought eh UK is a VERY low productivity, low living standard, low-value added rentier economy and society. The private school rabbit for the socialist hounds to eat is a ratchet towards an already extremely soviet state. I hear nothing from the left that suggests the degenerate policies they applied from 1945 will other than intensify. Thus I rejoice in not any longer living there. The angle of decline is steeper, after the madnesses of Brown Blaire, then the insanity of the removal of the Conservatives and their replacement by ultra radical nationalist brexit populists. Both parties are a mirror to the catastrophe. There is no hope there. The private schools are a problem because the state schools are dreadful. The Private health system is a problem because the NHS is appalling. Neither party in that miserable bitter failed island society have any ideas to change any of the rot there. The woman sounds like a standard bitter enforcing leftie from 1945. He sounds economical with the actualite. Hopeless place. Emigrate if you possibly can BY the way, I was educated at a Grammar School, and there was probably an arithmetic majority of poor and working-class kids there. They were culturally disadvantaged, not be the 11 plus. I understand that 0ver 85% of the professional cadres in England are populated by the products of the private schools which educate about 10% of the indigenous. A disaster. Indian caste system, not a European country BUT Labour loves a captive electorate of dirt poor people; their urban funding policies and so much else guarantee it continues. The Cons loathe the middle classes. 19th Century Britian seems eternal. But with none of the advantages the 19th century bestowed upon it.
Her logic doesn't make sense. So it's basically not about equality or leveling up. It's about making sure middle class has no social mobility and is more likely to vote labour.
The private education sector would have a little broader sympathy within the public had they not spent the last 2 decades inflating fees well above inflation. In many regions/cities much of the old layer of private schools that served solidly middle class professions have disappeared.
Sympathy is not a word I would use or rely on. They either have a business model that works(Produces expected levels of education for the money laid down) or not; if not they must fail. If Government cannot deliver education and deliberately set about destroying the private sector - simple - leave UK.
As already said by Toby, parents of kids in independent schools are paying twice already as their existing tax burden pays for children in state schools. That's generous! Plus the state is letting down thousands of SEN kids and will be worse when SEN kids have to leave independent schools to go back into the state system.....which will ruin their later employment prospects. That's a bad investment in the country's future.
I have a friend who works at a private school. The children's BEHAVIOR is appalling. Being abusive to the teacher ..1 10 yr old said hed like to make love to her mother .she told him off.guess who got reprimanded,..... not the child .....told why are you here we dont like you.😤😤😤😤 are parents told about little Johnny. I dont think so .the head needs the money....thought secondary schools had bad pupils. This takes the biscuit..save your hard earned money .
No one would be willing to stop parents sending their children to public schools, but if they want the advantages that gives their kids (which is why they send them) then they will have to pay more to gain those advantages & the government can use that money to help other areas of society.
The country will NEVER be able to afford to have a totally STATE funded education. Get the boffins in the Treasury to give you a budgetary figure. However, there must surely be a middle way to give serious/enhanced tax relief to the private sector BUT on the condition that they open up their teaching facilities to many more pupils at the sixth form level: thus assisting the State Schools and so reduce their costs. It already happens in many schools but it needs to be much wider in its scope. By the way the Oxbridge admissions from students from Public Schools has been deliberately cut, to give more places to State pupils (even with lower grades). A bit of social engineeering??!!
Steady, the Oxbridge Unis already adopt social engineering by offering places to candidates from State Schools with lower grades than would normally be required. Why is State Education FREE?? Many parents could and should pay something. Fioana has a very sad attitude to education or was she an actress??
My local state schools are very good, that’s why I moved to the area, do away with private schools and I may have been priced out of the market. Plus the equality she wants will never happen, even if you force everyone to go to a state school the wealthy kids will just get private tutors, then the complaint would be that everyone in red brick universities had a private tutor. Those with spare income will always use it to give their kids the best start in life. You can’t alter that, so keep the private schools let them be charities so they can offer more places and there will be more money per pupil in the state schools.
"Those with spare income will always use it to give their kids the best start in life". Many of us parents will give up all sorts of things and work longer hours/second/third jobs to pay for tutors/private/semi-private education. Our kids went to private schools but went without trips to Disney World and many other things that their peers recieved. "Spare Income" is often not there - it is deciding how to budget what to do with what you have and setting priorities. It should be the goal of every parent to give their children the best start in life - but Government seems to want to hamstring that job at almost every turn - much more interested in social engineering.
@@williamobrien5041 I broadly agree with what your saying, and respect your choices, with no judgement, but doing without trips to Disneyland to pay for extra tuition shows that the spare income is there you just chose to allocate it to schooling rather than expensive holidays. Those without ‘spare’ income would be choosing between food and tutoring, not Disneyland and schooling. If you are a cleaner you can work every waking hour but you’re still not pulling in enough to pay for private tutors or much more than a week in a caravan once a year.
@S that sounds exactly like communism. You also seem to have assumed I am rich. I am not. My car is 9 years old. My kids do t go to private schools, I take camping holidays because I can’t afford foreign holidays, I have spent my weekend doing DIY because I can’t afford tradesmen. It is true that I am comfortable enough that I never worry where my next meal will come from or if I can pay my bills but I am not part of some wealthy elite. My point made much better than your inane response is that with our current system which is far from ideal but could be worse, the wealthy will always make sure their kids have the best start in life. Unless you ban wealth you are not going to change that.
It isn't about improving educational performance it is about them getting preferential treatment and getting places at Oxbridge and top jobs. That's why we have had mediocre people like Johnson, Cameron and Mogg in charge. Toby Young is attempting to prop up the class system which is unfair.
Some of my family attend or have attended private schools, lovely people and are doing very well in life as one would expect. But ultimately, will 93% of the population really care that this 20% VAT increase will hurt - No. Bottom line, if you can't afford the cheese sandwich, then don't buy it. I have private health, so pay twice, but not asking for a reduction in NI conts
Hang on, these hard up parents will suddenly find a load of money to move house to be near a top state school - well fees/stamp duty etc are likely to be 50k or so - tiny violin
Why do parents buy a private education for their children? Is it a selfless sacrifice to hep the government provide more school places and resources to the general population? Of course not. It is because they know that having a private education will give their children an advantage over their peers whose parents cannot (or, in some cases, choose not to) afford a private education. It's not merely a product of quality of instruction or class size either: in addition to being educational institutions, private schools are, inevitably, social institutions, and they function as exclusive social clubs for children from affluent families. When you buy a private education for your child, you also receive as an added bonus a ready-made network of influential connections that will benefit that child for the rest of her or his life. They will form strong bonds with peers who will one day inherit wealth, property, businesses, political legacies and social standing that others outside their school will have to fight very hard to gain. A private education is therefore an extremely valuable and, understandably, an extremely costly product. A private education is an unfair advantage that one can, provided they have the means, purchase for their child. I frankly struggle to understand how anyone justifies giving people a tax break to purchase such a product.
Ignoring ideology, the fact is parents who pay for private education pay twice. Further, while removing charitable status would raise £1.7billion, incorporating 600000 private pupils into the state system would cost £3 billion. Is that what Ms Millar wants?
@mk91-vz1oj The government spent £88 billion on primary and secondary education in 2022/3. HMRC took £250 billion in income tax receipts.Where else do you think the money came from?
@mk91-vz1ojI'm not sure how the breakdown of the source of receipts affects my original point. I have not suggested that the money raised is specifically for education or for the NHS or for roads etc. And of course it is raised after the event. But the fact remains education is paid for out of all our taxed income. A parent then paying for private education is effectively paying twice.
@mk91-vz1oj Thanks. But I am a simple man with a simple understanding - theories of economics, fiscal analyses etc are way above my pay grade. Clearly money is not static, but whether the supply flows before the spend or after seems to me to be just a question of timing. The actual money ie the receipts from income tax, VAT and NIC, and the allocations of spending, are subject of course to political decisions. They too are usually a question of timing.
People should have a choice to send there children to private schools abd they should not pay school. And all state schools should get there act together and offer a good standard of education that there is good job opportunities for all. Freedom of choice no dictation by governments Labour stop dictating after Blare who wants Labour he brought the UK into war in Iraq this lady on the panel speaks like a dictator disadvantage needs help if they need to achieve. Decent housing act but stop dismissing people who want better choice of education. and will pay for it. They are ordinary working people and are threatened with high tax it's unfair and another form of communism . We have enough of that in China then it goes extreme that no one can be critical or be arrested . .
What is this ‘fair’ you talk about. Life is not fair. It never will be. Chasing fair is like chasing rainbows. People with more money can afford so many advantages in life. That is how it should be.
I wouldn't have a problem with parents sending their children to private school, if they would just admit it's an advantage and morally wrong from a society point. But justifiably from a parental point of view. It's the dishonesty, that puts me off this social encomomic class.
I don't know any parents who pay for their children to be educated & don't regard it as an advantage. Those I know are willing to make huge sacrifices to do so; I think you must know some peculiar people.
Read CHUMS - why is getting into Oxford a benchmark? I used to think this was the high water mark of academia.Definitely not so - more like the high watermark of snobbishness and entitlement. I googled Fiona Millar - partner of Alastair Campbell- if she was advisor to A. Blair ,would this not constitute a sort of nepotism. A Blair sent his children to private schools. I am with Toby on this. P.S. I love this programme. Katy Balls you write well but you swallow your words. We listen on UTube and so we need good diction. Cindy,Freddie, Toby,and , Fiona are very easy to hear.
Fiona is a smart lady. She partner of Alistair Campbell? The like of the Ivy League private school should get diddly squat. The rest should get a sliding scale subsidy of some sort. Education is poorly funded across much of the state sector. From this we all lose.
I wouldn't call anyone close to Alistair Campbell smart, but I would say they're well matched. He was Tony bLiar's henchman & a nastier piece of work would be difficult to imagine. He & Blair should have been prosecuted for war crimes & I think they also have Dr Kelly's blood on their hands.
@@gillycooper8717 oh agree. Currently being reinvented via podcast but nowt will scrub his hands clean. Fiona if it's the same one has considerably credibility in education circles. That said and painting with a broad brush, the degree of separation between that lot are not so many. Yes, David Kelly: I think we all think we know what really happened there.
Fiona's position is just "Bring about equality by dragging down the top."
Very well said
Charitable status should be earned by charitable activity. There should be a high standards set out to achieve in order to obtain charity status tax breaks. This should be something examined across all the charity sector as part of a "levelling up agenda". This attack on private schools seems to me simply ideological motivated. Such motivations rarely benefit those less well off in society.
Toby Young you make perfect sense.
If their parents are paying then of course it’s fair
Fiona’s entire argument is that ‘it’s unfair’ that some people are richer and can provide more resources for their children. It boils down to a mere whine.
There are so many flaws in her reasoning it’s a joke:
1. If there is so much capacity in the London system, why not reduce its size and spend the additional cash on existing pupils, thus closing the gap on funding per pupil?
2. If the 11 plus can be gamed by coaching, then why don’t we simply ask state primary schools also give coaching to ‘game’ it? And what makes her think that parents won’t just also spend money on tutoring for GCSEs if they are forced to go to state schools?
3. If state schools are “much better than private school parents think”, then what’s the problem in the first place?
Fiona should apply her logic to all those children of famous parents that slip into to the same industry, from acting, music, sport, TV, national politics, and just being an 'airhead celebrity'.
It will make the World worse, especially with all the bureaucracy involved, but that is what it is all about. :)
She is the problem. She believes that money brings civilization instead of the exact other way round! So many like her have too much power hence our society is collapsing! They are constantly thinking the wrong way round for pretty much everything!
@@legion1791 Fiona appears to think that sending your child to a private school is all there is to it: put one child and loads of money through the machine, wait ten years, and out pops 3 A-stars attached to a prospective undergraduate!
If only she realised that private schools have special, very secret, machines with USB 3.2 connections that down load information, confidence and important career enhancing contacts to their pupils, she would be even more jealous of their good fortune.
You had better get used it because its gonna happen and long overdue.
Power to the people
@@simonnay5278 lol okay commie
She is wrong and what gives her the right to stop parents who want the best for their children choosing a school and are willing to PAY for it? Equality gone mad and look at the dire straits we are in because of it. Butt out and leave independent schools as they are.
That is not what is going to happen and you know it. They are not going to subsidised in future and that is fair.
If you charge VAT on school fees, then you ought to charge VAT on university fees.
Thats different, private schools are a business
@@jamesholt4449 So are universities when it comes to undergraduate and postgraduate education.
That is right. Clamp down on schools that are actually teaching worthwhile material
Interesting points on both sides. My local schools are awful so I'm either moving house or sending my kids private. I can't afford to do both and I shouldn't have to do either.
Why are you not sensible enough to emigrate from the hellhole? Lazy, unaware, or a sort of crazy bigoted love of the odd little bit of the planet?
@@terencefield3204 What makes you think I live in a hell-hole? You are an odd little bit of the planet.
@@jamesharrison3134 Well perhaps you could describe the nature of a society that displays the attributes found in all aspects of life in Britian, well-reported abroad, but only partially in that country? If you do not live there, well done, if you do, I accept the word 'hellhole' is lazy and shorthand, maybe received as rough/offensive, but with such truly appalling things that have happened there, is the word not more rather than less accurate?
@@terencefield3204 you seem to be under the delusion that a utopia exists anywhere. Regardless, I happen to be blessed with a nature that finds happiness wherever I go. Try meditating.
@@jamesharrison3134 I expected that you would avoid reality and try to put words in my mouth.Pitiful schoolboy stuff.Your self satisfaction is a touch pitiful, if not downright mean minded as suffering is all around you there.Standard nimbyBrit stuff.
No. There should be more private schools and the ones we have should be protected. Especially given the shocking standard of education available and the immigrant children filling school places at the rate of knots
Oh dear Carrie-you are showing your colours. Don't you like immigrants or the proles.
Putting up independent school fees will also mean more schools going bust. It's been happening for many years, particularly in prep schools, due to school fees outpacing inflation. Extra tax will accelerate that.
Ms Millar should just come out and say she wants to make private schools illegal, as she clearly does. There are other inequalities in life. Some children suffer when their father runs away, like my cousins. They were privately schooled at great sacrifice by my aunt, helped by my parents. Would Ms Millar be happier if that hadn't been possible?
I'm sure she would be very happy if it was not possible.
People who can afford to should absolutely be encouraged to stop using the NHS and go private. Reduce the burden.
Most of them will be. You make an excellent point though, anyone using private schools and private medical are saving the tax payer a fortune. Its costs about £7k per year to educate in the state sector so someone who send their child to a private school for 13 years saves teh taxpayer £91,000. They then save us even more with private health insurance.
Of course we had excellent education in grammar schools but they had to go. Now they are after private schools. These people won’t rest until every child thinks the same nonsense as them.
They did not have to go. Your foul state socialist bigots destroyed them.The rest of the lamentable class ridden misery is history, but the causes fought over like bulldogs in a pit. Idiotic little society.
Grammar schools are outdated. they were for the 20% needed for academic jobs BACK IN THE FIFTIES. We have a National Curriculum that tells them what they must learn but it doesn't apply to independent schools.
We need to support homeschooling. State education is destroying our minds.
How ridiculous is this woman? She claims tutoring your child is an example of "gaming the system".
Doing any educational work independently of a public school is gaming the system i guess
@mikeblain9973 she is correct she is talking about the 11 plus exam still taken in Kènt. Wealthy parents will move near those schools and then pay for private tutors. Therefore gaming the system.
This constant moan of "is it fair" gets me so pi**ed off. I worked hard to be able to afford private education and medical care because I see every day how inept Government is at providing those two services. It is NOT about money, it is about delivery which is awful. And "fair" - please - this woman wants everybody to level down - if I want to work/save to have my position better than the next - I want to be able to do that. The thought of offering my family up on the altar of Governments whims/experiments/exception driving all the rules - not happening.
My heart bleeds. Most people work hard
It's a drive to mediocrity, the huge independent schools will carry on as usual, the whole policy is about buying votes and nothing more.
This woman just doesn’t listen.
The crucial point was made by Toby around 9:00 - well-off parents will just buy houses in the expensive catchments of the top state schools.
This already happens to a large degree. If you think abolishing private schools will overcome the class divide you haven’t fully understood the dynamics of class in the U.K.
these hard up parents will suddenly find a load of money to move house to be near a top state school - well fees/stamp duty etc are likely to be 50k or so - tiny violin
THis is the recipe of the particularly British state - socialists pretty much uninterrupted since 1945. The 'Tories' were avowed 'we are all socialisrts now' from 45 to 79. The ONLY regime that modestly cut the state spend, added a modicum of personal wealth and inter-genertional wealth was the Thatcher regime. After that sharp reversal.
The consequences of state fiscal and monetary policy was de-industrialisation, cultural evisceration, the creation of a poverty leve find nowhere else in the developed world - even thought eh UK is a VERY low productivity, low living standard, low-value added rentier economy and society.
The private school rabbit for the socialist hounds to eat is a ratchet towards an already extremely soviet state.
I hear nothing from the left that suggests the degenerate policies they applied from 1945 will other than intensify.
Thus I rejoice in not any longer living there.
The angle of decline is steeper, after the madnesses of Brown Blaire, then the insanity of the removal of the Conservatives and their replacement by ultra radical nationalist brexit populists.
Both parties are a mirror to the catastrophe.
There is no hope there. The private schools are a problem because the state schools are dreadful.
The Private health system is a problem because the NHS is appalling.
Neither party in that miserable bitter failed island society have any ideas to change any of the rot there.
The woman sounds like a standard bitter enforcing leftie from 1945.
He sounds economical with the actualite.
Hopeless place.
Emigrate if you possibly can
BY the way, I was educated at a Grammar School, and there was probably an arithmetic majority of poor and working-class kids there. They were culturally disadvantaged, not be the 11 plus.
I understand that 0ver 85% of the professional cadres in England are populated by the products of the private schools which educate about 10% of the indigenous.
A disaster. Indian caste system, not a European country
BUT
Labour loves a captive electorate of dirt poor people; their urban funding policies and so much else guarantee it continues.
The Cons loathe the middle classes.
19th Century Britian seems eternal. But with none of the advantages the 19th century bestowed upon it.
Her logic doesn't make sense. So it's basically not about equality or leveling up. It's about making sure middle class has no social mobility and is more likely to vote labour.
Hey……let’s get rid of those nasty private schools…….let’s make all schools the same…..no good
The private education sector would have a little broader sympathy within the public had they not spent the last 2 decades inflating fees well above inflation. In many regions/cities much of the old layer of private schools that served solidly middle class professions have disappeared.
Sympathy is not a word I would use or rely on. They either have a business model that works(Produces expected levels of education for the money laid down) or not; if not they must fail. If Government cannot deliver education and deliberately set about destroying the private sector - simple - leave UK.
Well said glassmuxxic
As already said by Toby, parents of kids in independent schools are paying twice already as their existing tax burden pays for children in state schools. That's generous! Plus the state is letting down thousands of SEN kids and will be worse when SEN kids have to leave independent schools to go back into the state system.....which will ruin their later employment prospects. That's a bad investment in the country's future.
I have a friend who works at a private school. The children's BEHAVIOR is appalling. Being abusive to the teacher ..1 10 yr old said hed like to make love to her mother .she told him off.guess who got reprimanded,..... not the child .....told why are you here we dont like you.😤😤😤😤 are parents told about little Johnny. I dont think so .the head needs the money....thought secondary schools had bad pupils. This takes the biscuit..save your hard earned money .
No one would be willing to stop parents sending their children to public schools, but if they want the advantages that gives their kids (which is why they send them) then they will have to pay more to gain those advantages & the government can use that money to help other areas of society.
Politics of resentment, not envy.
The country will NEVER be able to afford to have a totally STATE funded education. Get the boffins in the Treasury to give you a budgetary figure. However, there must surely be a middle way to give serious/enhanced tax relief to the private sector BUT on the condition that they open up their teaching facilities to many more pupils at the sixth form level: thus assisting the State Schools and so reduce their costs. It already happens in many schools but it needs to be much wider in its scope. By the way the Oxbridge admissions from students from Public Schools has been deliberately cut, to give more places to State pupils (even with lower grades). A bit of social engineeering??!!
This woman is talking about the huge private school not the smaller local ones who scrape by.
All state schools are not of equal quality.That’s not fair either
Most parents at state schools are not living in poverty. Let them pay modest fees to improve state schools.
Let state schools charge modest fees, means tested. That would make a real difference.
Loved seeing Toby Young getting kicked around the screen by Fiona Millar-Ooft!
Me too
Get rid of all those nasty tests and ……..just admit everyone
Steady, the Oxbridge Unis already adopt social engineering by offering places to candidates from State Schools with lower grades than would normally be required. Why is State Education FREE?? Many parents could and should pay something. Fioana has a very sad attitude to education or was she an actress??
My local state schools are very good, that’s why I moved to the area, do away with private schools and I may have been priced out of the market.
Plus the equality she wants will never happen, even if you force everyone to go to a state school the wealthy kids will just get private tutors, then the complaint would be that everyone in red brick universities had a private tutor. Those with spare income will always use it to give their kids the best start in life. You can’t alter that, so keep the private schools let them be charities so they can offer more places and there will be more money per pupil in the state schools.
"Those with spare income will always use it to give their kids the best start in life".
Many of us parents will give up all sorts of things and work longer hours/second/third jobs to pay for tutors/private/semi-private education. Our kids went to private schools but went without trips to Disney World and many other things that their peers recieved.
"Spare Income" is often not there - it is deciding how to budget what to do with what you have and setting priorities.
It should be the goal of every parent to give their children the best start in life - but Government seems to want to hamstring that job at almost every turn - much more interested in social engineering.
@@williamobrien5041 I broadly agree with what your saying, and respect your choices, with no judgement, but doing without trips to Disneyland to pay for extra tuition shows that the spare income is there you just chose to allocate it to schooling rather than expensive holidays. Those without ‘spare’ income would be choosing between food and tutoring, not Disneyland and schooling. If you are a cleaner you can work every waking hour but you’re still not pulling in enough to pay for private tutors or much more than a week in a caravan once a year.
@S that sounds exactly like communism. You also seem to have assumed I am rich. I am not. My car is 9 years old. My kids do t go to private schools, I take camping holidays because I can’t afford foreign holidays, I have spent my weekend doing DIY because I can’t afford tradesmen. It is true that I am comfortable enough that I never worry where my next meal will come from or if I can pay my bills but I am not part of some wealthy elite.
My point made much better than your inane response is that with our current system which is far from ideal but could be worse, the wealthy will always make sure their kids have the best start in life. Unless you ban wealth you are not going to change that.
@S WTF are you talking about. You seem to be arguing against yourself.
I am not sure you know what communism is. 😂
It isn't about improving educational performance it is about them getting preferential treatment and getting places at Oxbridge and top jobs. That's why we have had mediocre people like Johnson, Cameron and Mogg in charge.
Toby Young is attempting to prop up the class system which is unfair.
The impartial chairwoman is on the side of Young.
Some of my family attend or have attended private schools, lovely people and are doing very well in life as one would expect. But ultimately, will 93% of the population really care that this 20% VAT increase will hurt - No. Bottom line, if you can't afford the cheese sandwich, then don't buy it. I have private health, so pay twice, but not asking for a reduction in NI conts
Peter Hitchens has done quite a deep dive on this, I recall
My grands go private on a GRANT for low income by the school. So what's problem
Well you are part of the social toxicity with that remark, but I do doubt you know why.
Hang on, these hard up parents will suddenly find a load of money to move house to be near a top state school - well fees/stamp duty etc are likely to be 50k or so - tiny violin
I have no problem with removing blanket charitable status on private schools, but there is absolutely I good argument for restricting them whatsoever.
I'm far more concerned about the charitable status of NGOs. Their influence is massive.
Why do parents buy a private education for their children? Is it a selfless sacrifice to hep the government provide more school places and resources to the general population? Of course not. It is because they know that having a private education will give their children an advantage over their peers whose parents cannot (or, in some cases, choose not to) afford a private education. It's not merely a product of quality of instruction or class size either: in addition to being educational institutions, private schools are, inevitably, social institutions, and they function as exclusive social clubs for children from affluent families. When you buy a private education for your child, you also receive as an added bonus a ready-made network of influential connections that will benefit that child for the rest of her or his life. They will form strong bonds with peers who will one day inherit wealth, property, businesses, political legacies and social standing that others outside their school will have to fight very hard to gain. A private education is therefore an extremely valuable and, understandably, an extremely costly product. A private education is an unfair advantage that one can, provided they have the means, purchase for their child. I frankly struggle to understand how anyone justifies giving people a tax break to purchase such a product.
One of his main arguments focusses on a study indicating private school offers no academic advantage. Hilarious 🤣
30p Lee, for Prime Minister.
Ignoring ideology, the fact is parents who pay for private education pay twice. Further, while removing charitable status would raise £1.7billion, incorporating 600000 private pupils into the state system would cost £3 billion. Is that what Ms Millar wants?
@mk91-vz1oj
The government spent £88 billion on primary and secondary education in 2022/3. HMRC took £250 billion in income tax receipts.Where else do you think the money came from?
@mk91-vz1ojI'm not sure how the breakdown of the source of receipts affects my original point. I have not suggested that the money raised is specifically for education or for the NHS or for roads etc. And of course it is raised after the event. But the fact remains education is paid for out of all our taxed income. A parent then paying for private education is effectively paying twice.
@mk91-vz1oj Thanks. But I am a simple man with a simple understanding - theories of economics, fiscal analyses etc are way above my pay grade. Clearly money is not static, but whether the supply flows before the spend or after seems to me to be just a question of timing. The actual money ie the receipts from income tax, VAT and NIC, and the allocations of spending, are subject of course to political decisions. They too are usually a question of timing.
@mk91-vz1oj In Bedfordshire, we talk of nothing else.
Remove charity status from middle class parents at state schools. They should pay modest fees, means tested.
People should have a choice to send there children to private schools abd they should not pay school. And all state schools should get there act together and offer a good standard of education that there is good job opportunities for all. Freedom of choice no dictation by governments Labour stop dictating after Blare who wants Labour he brought the UK into war in Iraq this lady on the panel speaks like a dictator disadvantage needs help if they need to achieve. Decent housing act but stop dismissing people who want better choice of education. and will pay for it. They are ordinary working people and are threatened with high tax it's unfair and another form of communism . We have enough of that in China then it goes extreme that no one can be critical or be arrested .
.
What is this ‘fair’ you talk about. Life is not fair. It never will be. Chasing fair is like chasing rainbows. People with more money can afford so many advantages in life. That is how it should be.
Too short
I wouldn't have a problem with parents sending their children to private school, if they would just admit it's an advantage and morally wrong from a society point. But justifiably from a parental point of view. It's the dishonesty, that puts me off this social encomomic class.
I don't know any parents who pay for their children to be educated & don't regard it as an advantage. Those I know are willing to make huge sacrifices to do so; I think you must know some peculiar people.
Mister Toby Young. If you know, you know.
Read CHUMS - why is getting into Oxford a benchmark? I used to think this was the high water mark of academia.Definitely not so - more like the high watermark of snobbishness and entitlement. I googled Fiona Millar - partner of Alastair Campbell- if she was advisor to A. Blair ,would this not constitute a sort of nepotism. A Blair sent his children to private schools.
I am with Toby on this.
P.S. I love this programme. Katy Balls you write well but you swallow your words. We listen on UTube and so we need good diction. Cindy,Freddie, Toby,and , Fiona are very easy to hear.
Good debate
Fiona is a smart lady. She partner of Alistair Campbell?
The like of the Ivy League private school should get diddly squat. The rest should get a sliding scale subsidy of some sort. Education is poorly funded across much of the state sector. From this we all lose.
I wouldn't call anyone close to Alistair Campbell smart, but I would say they're well matched. He was Tony bLiar's henchman & a nastier piece of work would be difficult to imagine. He & Blair should have been prosecuted for war crimes & I think they also have Dr Kelly's blood on their hands.
@@gillycooper8717 oh agree. Currently being reinvented via podcast but nowt will scrub his hands clean. Fiona if it's the same one has considerably credibility in education circles. That said and painting with a broad brush, the degree of separation between that lot are not so many. Yes, David Kelly: I think we all think we know what really happened there.