I Coded In VR. It Went Better Than Expected.
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- So, I spent the day coding with the Apple Vision Pro, and overall? I'm impressed. There's a long way's to go still, but this is a great start.
btw the first impressions vid is here: • Developer Tries The Vi...
Do all programmers need one? Can I imagine developing without it? Watch and find out!
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Note: the screen recordings look WAY WORSE than what you see on headset. I avoided talking about “foveated rendering” because I didn’t want to scare the normal humans away, maybe a topic for 2nd channel? 🤔
How does it compare to 27" 5k screen?
@@ermiceits a micro oled display with a 4k screen for both eyes. And i heard the pixel density is so good that you basically cant see pixels. And u can make it as huge as a home cinema so ig u cant really compare them...
if you have to not talk about certain topics to not scare "normal humans" maybe they should be scared away ?
I've been wondering when this would be possible since Minority report came out :)
Guess an airplane might be a good use case.
How many readable lines of code / chars per line would you get in a full screen editor/terminal?
(My go-to test when i look for big monitors)
The pass through video for me is a blurry mess. I can’t read anything near me and looking at objects in the distance look blurry. That being said, the vision UI is stupidly sharp, so I’m now wondering if my unit could be defective 😢
its worth mentioning the recording from the AVP includes it's foveating rendering, which is why things look blurry. It saves processing power by keeping what you're LOOKING at in high res
Another experiment 😂
Yes which is a good thing because it as you said saves processing power, AND it's how our eyes work naturally
From what I understand, there is a way to record full-resolution using the developer tools, but it has to drop frame rate significantly in order to do it.
@@pastuh Clueless
I wonder if we end up having VR versions of web apps. we're still at point where a lot of apps doesn't work well on mobile, we still need to build native apps, I can't imagine supporting desktop, mobile, AND VR.
I think it could get a lot easier to make web apps for XR if Apple decides to support it and give them close to the same permissions as native apps.
dont forget the smartwatch
If we do I hope to god we have an open standard.
It uses almost those huge desktop screen size ratio tho, so it would not be that bad.
The web is a paradigm for a single window on a single screen. For VR this is a really tough constraint, because in VR you can have a main window with the stuff you are working on and you can put everything around this without compromising what you see in that main window. Popup windows or additional options can be displayed outside that main frame.
However, quite some programs have started using sidebars that can be collapsed and opened separately. I think this concept will evolve into a concept where those sidepanels open to the outside of the main frame instead of to the inside.
i would love if headset was just for displaying stuff like a monitor (multi monitor from one headset) and laptop was for compute and computer stuff,
I would buy one if it was just virtual windows to replace my monitor.
I don’t want a bunch of other platform specific stuff. I just want monitors.
that's by far the most attractive use case for me
that… is what the headset is for
There are headsets like that already, actually, even higher resolution, just not 3D. Strictly a monitor, no other functionality.
@@toooes nope, the vision pro is also an actual computer. It has its own Apple M series processor inside.
Moving windows from Mac into a virtual space is a must. It seems like that would be amazing.
I have no use for this product but im hypnotized by the future potential
There's a skateboarding game for it and it's really, really bad
@@t3dotgg omgggg
This "Peace, Nerds" sign-off with the headset on couldn't have been more apt.
I'm personally excited for where this goes. The one thing I really want to see is the ability to drag Mac windows around in space, not limited by the "virtual monitor".
I'm imagining a day when I can put it on, connect to a Mac Studio, and then have a full workspace in whatever room I want to be in. Like remote desktop taken to the next dimension (literally).
I could also see one of the most popular product categories for the Vision Pro being a bracket to combine a Magic Trackpad with a keyboard into one connected piece. There have been a few before but they were of limited utility given that most would still be used on a desk. But having a keyboard and trackpad in your lap suddenly becomes *very* important for the Vision Pro, and I could imagine that a lot of these kinds of products are going to show up. Or, perhaps Apple could make a one-piece keyboard/trackpad for the Vision Pro?
This is a really well done video. Thank you.
One thing I can notice just by watching the video is the blur in the virtual screens/windows, which I think you didn't quite address (oh, it's in the pinned comment); so to add to Theo's comments in the video, I'll mention that there's this technique called "foveated rendering", which blurs everywhere except the exact area you're looking at, which is what they're using in the Vision Pro, likely to save processing
It's weird to see all the blur because you're not looking at the same points Theo is looking, but from what I've heard it's very comfortable when you're actually using it, the exact point you're looking at is always clear
Hm, I thought I could easily refrain from buying this product but this is the first overview I have seen which has really captured my interest… it makes me excited for the future for sure.
This is the precise review that I've hoped someone with knowledge, experience and great communication skills would make, since I first heard about the Vision Pro. Thanks.
This is the same excitement people had (after putting money down and waiting 6 months) in 1984 when
the Macintosh came out. You know things are never going to be the same again.
I really like coding in Meta Quest 3 (using Immersed app)
I have used Immersed in the Quest 3 and Pro and the resolution and overall experience just wasn't there for me unfortunately.
I've even done coding in an Index, though I recognise it's bad. Thinking of getting a Quest3 to do coding while travelling with soon.
Me too. This is what I currently use as a portable multi-screen setup. My home office with three screens is still better but we are getting close!
Same, although I reallyyyy wish that it had a 4K per eye micro-OLED......
Maybe the Quest 4 will get us there
If using Immersed with a Mac, be sure to mess with (on the Mac side) "Settings" ➝ "Advanced" ➝ "Retina Display Quality". "10" is what you want for reading smaller text, assuming it doesn't hurt latency. "Encode Quality" doesn't seem to be as important for text -- as long as you don't go lower than "Medium" -- though it does help with images. I tried supersampling (using "Quest Games Optimizer"), but it seemed to only improve the UI, I couldn't tell a difference in the virtual screen.
What a time to be alive!
Hold onto your papers...
Settle down nerd
this is the same stuff they tried in the 90s but in hd all style but not very useful. vr is fun in games and some other stuff .
Thank you for the honest and thorough review!
Your channel is great. Thank you for this. Really interesting
Gah, I've watched a ton of reviews, but this was the first time I really understood. As SOON as you can pull out windows into space, and the paradigm of the monitor goes away, it will be an amazing coding platform.
Ah i was hoping apple would do something like ask you how many virtual displays youd like when connecting, and let you add or remove more.
I code everyday using xreal air glasses. Work great!
Great solution if your IPD is in the right range (mine is not), and you can handle panel resolution of 1920x1080 (per eye). You can get a few more vertical pixels using Rokid Max (1920x1200). PPD is surprisingly good for these birdbath glasses, very lightweight, but they have to be plugged in at all times, no onboard battery (like AVP).
This style makes so much sense for the product review. I think you’re gonna rake in the views Theo. Good stuff I have been considering the vision pro for Dev and this is insightful
I used to be a pretty big VR enthusiast (maybe not to your level given all the devices you've owned) and seeing your experience as a developer using this is great. Thank you for investing in this and sharing your experience.
I have a Oculus CV1 (that I haven't used in years), I decided to set away from VR until there was a big jump in resolution. This headset my just be what I was looking for.
Apple Vision Pro should have a feature to work like if you are inside the desktop, and being able to drag and drop windows and apps while working with physical keyboard. I'm disappointed with the current version but I'm pretty sure they will be releasing updates soon with new features. Also, it would be good to put all the windows on a curve screen to avoid angles and gaps between flat screens. It's very close
I’ve probably spent close to 24 hours in my headset so far and I actually really like the solo-loop band 🤷♂ I just keep it kind of loose and set it higher up on the back of my head
"Without a macbook, Vision Pro is a toy, and not even a very good one."
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SAYING IT OUT LOUD!
Having owned every oculus headset, I think the passthrough on AVP looks great. It's definitely a leap forward. There are a lot of people that think otherwise, and I'm not sure what they were expecting
That is because they don't know what vr and ar is lol. The product is the best technology ever is just people who complain are just ignorants
@@toututu2993 How Einstein said everything is measured from point of view of observer. They compare passthrough from real life, because that is there point of from where they measure it. For us its other headset.
You should throw one of those "crowns" for reading brain signals into the mix, then think of code instead of typing it. And also one of those helmets where you can put 2 cans of water. Stay hydrated!
the vision pro feels like it will reach its potential once you can actually take advantage of its functionality as a mixed reality headset for this kind of work without the caveats of needing to still plug in earbuds or not having the ability to create new virtual monitors. it will also be nice when it costs less than two used cars
My expectation was dragging a window from the Mac out of the screen and have it floating in space. Instead we got a screen sharing app that supports only a single screen. I am a little disappointed.
Even Meta Workspace and the app Immersed can do 3 screens with a Mac and Quest 3 so I would have expected this device to do more. Especially, given that Apple can change MacOS itself it make it an even better experience while all others have to work around their restrictions.
The quest 3 only has 1 app running at a time, Vision Pro technically lets you have unlimited apps open. And all of those apps except for the screen mirroring are computed locally on Vision Pro. So it’s doing a lot more than the Quest 3 is, computationally
Mac -> AVP screen mirroring has a lot lower latency than Immersed. They will eventually support more but they didn’t want to trade off any input latency, they wanted it to feel like a real monitor.
I use 2x 1440p 27” for dev work. Didn’t really feel the need to jump on 4K train. Maybe with bigger displays it would make sense but my desk will not take bigger displays. My first thought about Vision Pro was „I want multiple virtual displays” but „I want to drag windows around in 3D space” sounds so much more promising:) Still, a lot of things to be solved to make this work - might me as much software as hardware, but just like with iPhone we’re likely to see huge leaps in first 3-4 generations.
Most excited thing i got in Apple Vision Pro that Theo have teleprompter
Thanks for the review.
I actually keep in mind for coding with this.
But I also think that the first gen of this thing will have some problem.
You can add a second solo knit band to the headset with a 3d printed part
I kinda feel like it should track real world objects to bring into your immersed mode... The keyboard, the mouse, coffee cup or water bottle. Maybe even pen and paper. Being able to shut out the rest of the world while having select objects with you seems like a huge productivity gain. This doesn't seem too dissimilar from the way people facing you can fade into your immersed space, but ideally should have visual segmentation on par with the hand tracking.
Stoked for when this is usable for programming. Headset + keyboard as a mobile setup is crazy
I was kicking the idea around of doing an open source desktop environment for Linux that is in VR like this since virtual desktop doesn't run on linux. I have seen another project of it already called Simula done in Godot, but I have no idea how fleshed out it is.
Connectivity is too limited right now IMO, for many professional use cases. They should really let us connect things physically to it. Give us a dongle with USB, so we can plug accessories to it (while also having the battery pack connected).
Watching this in my Meta Quest pro
Theo, what about having one of this for travel? I love my two 27" 4k monitors on my desk, but when I'm traveling I feel so less productive on the MBP 14" screen. Would you rather have a Vision Pro instead of a Monduo or something like those 2 side screens attachable to the Mac?
Travel is definitely a pretty good use case. There you are, on a train, plane, boat, or just in a cafe, and have this huge space for all your apps. There's a chance people may stick their faces through your apps though, without realising.
Th only problems you mentioned were software, which will come in updates to the device. The hardware is solid, the comfort, the text clarity - I'm sold. Saying "should you buy this to code in... absolutely not" seems like an over-reaction. This is the device we've been waiting for and we need to code in it, feed the ecosystem with cash and critique the experience to get the software updates.
I'm not believing I will ever Code in this. There is a reason we like buttons with feedback. For example, light switches or keyboards. You don't look at what you're pressing, you have muscle memory for it. This certainly slows down productivity and learning curve.
And only for more width, sounds like you should consider a proper desk setup with multiple monitors that have the width you need to work the best.
Looking straight ahead and not down: Get a proper desk and chair.
The only way I'll ever use a device like this is if it comes in the form factor of actual glasses and can just be switched off and used as normal glasses throughout the day
In that sense, my Windows setup is better because I literally have two 4K 43" monitors side by side
This shit is so futuristic, it feels like one of the many dumb scifi movies that try to predict the future -- but real xD
You should’ve added the #AD in the Title and Thumbnail too
great shirt and sweater combo
Can't wait for the next generation of Theo's video thumbnails
I don't think Apple will let you take out individual apps from macOS to visionOS. It would make writing visionOS apps less needed, probably slow down productivity app ecosystem for Vision Pro, and most importantly, macOS already fully supports app sales outside of App Store (no 30% tax). That's not the future Apple wants - even if that's something all users want. There's hope, there are apps that try to hack this behavior, but I wonder if Apple will let these hacks exist for long.
This is a dope video and I am glad it exists but my dude looks so fucking goofy in that headset. 😂
Yeah, not having a way to pop windows out is such a weird missed opportunity. You can do it with the quest link app, but they use a bunch of hacks and the software itself is horrible.
But that just makes me think they are taking their time to make the best version of it possible. Stuff like this should be pailess to use for the average person.
I've been using the Quest (pro and 3) for coding, they are actually not bad. Takes some getting used to though.
Honestly the way you describe it, I wouldn't like the vision pro.
I had a better time using a Rift S from as far back as 2019 than I would using the vision pro. The gains in size, weight, and speed are lost in software quality. And 2019 Oculus software wasn't even that good. The thing is, the inability to take any window from your computer and giving it its own space just doesn't feel right.
Even with my old headset, I can do whatever I want with my PC's monitors & windows. While I need to switch to the right window (alt-tabbing or clicking on it with the joystick), it's still way more usable than whatever this is.
I am used to staying in VR for hours and I own an AVP which I agree it is a different device with amazing aesthetic experience. However, differently than the Quest that you can buy a BoboVR or another comfortable strap, the AVP comes with an additional headstrap with one strap in the top of the head. That should work, but the device is too heavy and the strap that goes in the back of the head is not angled enough to hold it to make the strap in the top of the head useful. The face gets red and my checks smashed after 1 hour. I might be more sensitive and and tryingvto be flexible understanding that people fell confort differently. How are you staying 7 hours? Are you resting every x hours? Are you adding an extra cushion?
For coding it looks rather ridiculous to be honest. I only way coding on this makes sense , is for developing and application for it.. so you’d be able to run swift and immediately see the results.. as for coding other things like websites, web apps.. it would be a waste of money.
The cost of entry to code on this thing will never get cheaper.
$3500+ for the headset, then maybe a good powerful Mac $1500 to $XK ..
The point of these devices when I was a kid the 80s was you weren’t gonna need a keyboard.. and this idea of coding in with a helmet on and still need a keyboard near by.. just grounds you back to the couch or a desk. These headsets should be geared towards 3D work, education for mechanical engineers, medical, mining, sure games and other things but.. coding seems to be a complete waste of the technology.
You’ve been coding for 15 years, I’ve been coding before the internet was available.. as someone who’s lived through these technological advances.. this is a poor offering to what was promised when I was a kid.
At the moment this device is a waste of money.
I'm very curious to see what you think about Matthaeus Krenn's VR-OS concept. He has got a really interesting approach using a cockpit instead of a desktop for the basic OS UI.
This product is such a bummer. Some of the highest quality engineering thrown into a device which has effectively refused to utilize what it's actually good at.
Meanwhile, you say you've owned all these other headsets and haven't considered coding on them. Why? Because nobody told you to. But because Apple made a VR headset without a purpose, they've instead told people to do regular monitor work on it.
This is going to rot on shelves after people are done making content about it.
I code every day in AR with the Xreal Air 2, easy, cheap, works down to the bios level.
Ok I will wait until someone decide to make this work for coders.
Its still just a really clever dead end tech tree.
Hmm almost think its better if you used virtual desktops and swap them via a keybind than turn your head
This video is the equivalent of every tech company trying to do metaverse when crypto was in a megabubble
Wondering if apple will ever release something less expensive which don't have the processors on board but delegate everything to the MacBook. It will be like having a portable second monitor and lot less expensive .
VR is the future for development. Oh you have 4 monitors? I have infinite 🤣
Just a reminder, we said “so close” on the iPad, but hopefull Apple will learn
What meta is doing with their avatars is a more interesting use case. I'd actually wear one if it felt the people i talk to are right there next to me
"I like this thing enough that I'll personally be keeping it"
His wallet:
We need multiple display setups and low price or specific for coding environments
imagine if you could take the mouse out of the mac with the apple vision on
Interesting video thank you. Did you notice any discomfort from the vergence-accommodation conflict? Vision pro has fixed focal distance right?
It does, though I haven't found an solid measurements of the exact distance yet. Decent varifocal is still probably at least a few years away (could be 5-10, who knows), though there's lots of nifty research being done.
If your virtual screens are placed (virtually) at the right distance, there should be little to no VAC, but if they are too close or too far, then yeah, it should occur. Seems to bother some more than others.
hi i would like what you mean exactly code for VR did you do some unity stuff ? some Webxr or else would be interesting and what was your 7 hour use case =? thx correction i shouldn't typed so early you used the googles for development ,... ahhh keep up the good work !!
We'll need an Apple Brain Pro that is worth 10000 USD to solve the idea you are trying to explain
Big the main goal is to be able to code-on-the-go without a laptop. We're still much farther away from that since the macbook is still a requirement.
You can definitely do that now with code server or some web-based SSH until a better app is released, as long as I can get into neovim I'm chillin. I think this'll be more like an iPad and will be frustrated we can't compile directly on the device.
Virtually infinite screen real-estate sounds really awesome. If it becomes affordable and can properly integrate with my desktop, it's definitely something I would consider. I have 3 monitors, and it's never enough. I'm considering getting a fourth one, but I don't know where it would fit on my desk lol. Also I'm running out of ports on my laptop to connect all of them.
Depends on your use case, but as a developer getting more vertical pixels is important,
so i use 4 or 5 1440p monitors in portrait mode.
up to 7200x2560 pixels, but some windows have to span monitors
Woah, there. You mean you coded in “spatial computing”. Apple doesn’t like the word VR
02:10 thanks god at least one clearly explained reality.
For the price of the package, you can buy a decent PC with six monitors!
Some of us would need to buy a MacBook Pro as well.
I wish there was a way to know if/when Apple will allow for multiple Mac windows on the AVP; it's one of the few things holding it back from being superior to the desktop experience.
I think multiple digital screens are very useful but spatial computing is giving the mobile device preview as a 3D model of the device in your hand with the screen running your code. I don't think the flying screens are representative of spatial computing.
Man all I want is an AR headset I can plug into a tiny laptop and use as virtual monitors in a cafe so I can properly work remotely while travelling. This is so close… hopefully something similar for windows isn’t too far off.
Thumbnail sucks. We’re not infants dude.
What editor theme is that? I'm digging the colors
It's crazy that's it seems to be another device from Apple that is hold back not by the hardware, but by software. iPads could be perfect for development - but no support for profesional tools. I'm so hyped for the monitorless future
I’m headed to the Apple Store. Love you boys.
Is it me or does Theo look like young Mr. Rodgers ❤
@t3dotgg everyone talks about having a MacBook, but what about a Mac Studio? Would it work with the Vision Pro? Considering it's very early I wonder if it would also work with it.
I find that small text is not comfortable to read, and I tend to keep the font very small when coding.
Using this in a plain, train or automobile wtih ma macbook pro would be dope.
This and pr0n seem to be the main use cases to be honest.
I find it such a stupid move from Apple to make the outside screen flash white when you’re screen recording. Means all the RUclipsrs ever showing themselves with the Vision Pro always have a flashing white screen on their face, rather than a cool-looking natural Vision Pro
Can't you make the display curved ? That would be a middle ground. You make it super big and curved and then you arrange windows in it
Forget using windows, I want to occupy the software I’m using
I really hoped they made macOS windows native for the VR, thank you for checking this use case.
Thanks. Of all the reviews out there this is one I wanted to see
I would consider buying if you could connect a Windows pc but right now it seems way too locked down. Will have to wait for a more open competitor
but why, why???? for god sake who will use this as their main coding device, good video anyway
The screen is insanely good, or Insanely Great
Sorry man I always code with meta quest 3 using the horizon workrooms where I’m surrounded with 3 mac screens and I see stuff clearly
That’s my main use for meta quest 3 actually
Is it the best developer experience if you can't afford to buy it?
i think yes, it looks dope
if you get a mac studio without a display, can the vison pro be used as one?
Can we see Theo pass through eyes??