EP231 - Summary of the Outlander PHEV battery/software problem. 💩👎
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2024
- As per you request I'm trying to summarise the 2 major battery and software issues the vehicle faces in this video.
In all PHEVs, we are seeing the available capacity of the battery going down far quicker than the normal degradation of the Li-ion would do. Obviously this can be reversed by a software reset for a short period of time which cannot be considered as a fix.
The second major problem is that all PHEVs are been delivered with uncalibrated BMUs, showing already less available battery capacity right from the start than the actual battery has. Only the 'triple procedure' makes this capacity available. As shown in the graphs it lasts only for a short period of time either.
Neither replacing the battery nor the 'triple procedure' seems to be the #PHEVcure we are all looking for. Mitsubishi is failing to provide a fix for these battery issues as well as the known 4WD problem for these vehicles. Doe we have a #PHEVgate ?
Link to the German version of this video:
• EP220 - Das weltweite ...
Change.org Petition for a battery/software fix from Mitsubishi Japan:
www.change.org...
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Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Group (Tips, Tricks, Experiences, help and assistance):
/ outlanderphev
My Outlander PHEV Forum. Join the Discussion!
www.myoutlander...
PHEV Watchdog (battery and car monitoring system):
www.phevwatchdo...
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Music by
MBB, Finland
/ mbbofficial
All music licensed under a Creative Commons Licence if not otherwise stated.
creativecommon...
and
creativecommon...
Andy, thank you for an excellent summary video and all your hard work and dedication to getting the battery/BMU problem fixed for all of us PHEV owners.
Thanks Matt, appreciate your feedback. We keep fighting right!?
Finally a great summary of the issues and your efforts to analyze it. Very clear and concise. Thank you
Thanks Trevor!
Great summary Andy, I am adding the petition link to my last video as well.
Gary Reed Unfrequented World Good one Gary, cheers, David.
Thanks Gary.
Thanks Andy. This was the first video that has explained the basics. I bought mine three and a half years ago. It started with 32km of electric range and never showed 50km.
I’ve bought the adapter and will check it. But my electric range varies from 30-24km these days.
Repost from the myoutlanderphev forum (since Andy seems to be the focal point of all PHEV efforts!):
Canadian 2018 model here:
Finally got some time to play around with the car today. Here are my conclusions of the 'triple procedure'. I used the Mitsubishi MUT-III SE software and a non-mitsubishi J2534 adapter.
1) BMU reset takes about 2 seconds to execute. Not clear to me what it does
2) Cell smoothing is just a balancing. Since my cells were within 0.005V, it ran for maybe 10 seconds
3) DBCAM: looked at the numbers, MUT-III confirmed my 32.8Ah capacity I was getting from the dog. (43 000km, 17 months old). I ran the thing and it complained about not charging. Plugged the car in (was down to about 2 bars of battery), re-clicked the item and after 10 seconds it said 'done'. Whaaaat? This is not working? So I shut down the car and as soon as I hit the power button and the dash went dark, the fans started running full blast. The car was running the A/C and the heating at the same time! The radiator fans kicked in quite a bit. I was worried that the car would get too hot in my garage (32*C day), so I sprayed the radiator with my garden hose every 3-4 minutes. The car discharged it's 2 bars in about 20 minutes and continued a good half-hour. Visibly, it is discharging the battery way lower than when driving. Once this madness stopped, it started charging. Took about 5h. Now the dog shows 35.9Ah!
So it did measure 10% more capacity that the calculated degradation. I'll confirm tomorrow on my way to work if this translated to real usable range, as my engine kicks in at the very same spot everyday.
EDIT: Did the same trip as everyday this morning, the engine kicked in 4km later (next highway exit). This is directly inline with the raised capacity. This Ah reported in the dog is no bullshit, this is really what the car uses to determine the "30%" SOC to start the engine.
OK, sound like only the DBCAM was correctly been carried out. The reset needs to be triggered in two different locations (well, one drop down menu but both values need a reset). The smoothing should take longer, the status is shown on the MUT for that. The DBCAM sounds about OK.
Thanks Andy
i have lost 0.5 AH in 2 months and it keeps dropping
No answer from dealer nor Mitsubishi Australia
I will use some of these info on court...
Cheers
You should join TeamPHEV...
@@unpluggedEV
how do i sign up?
Good one Andy! 👍
Hi Andy, top job to be continued. Thx therefore. Tomorrow is “the day” I’ll pickup my brand new PHEV Plus Intro. Keep you informed about the degradation, if happened. Kind regards from sunny 🇩🇪 😉ps. I signed .the petition already. 👍
Thank you for the feedback, enjoy the car!
Another signature and donation for the petition..... keep up the good work guys....
I have a April 2019 manufactured car, delivered in June 2019 with 3700km until now. THe problems with EV range loss are so grate that now in the winter time I hardly make 16-17 km electrically, from 70km from initial run. I contacted the dealer, Mitsubishi Motors Europe, Mitsubishi Motors Japan, complained to all government agencies with very little success. The agency responsible for bringing Mitsubishi cars into the country did a full charge and discharge circle of the battery and concluded an almost 10% battery capacity loss in the first 3000km. Now the values are way lower, around 20% loss according to my calculation. In my onest opinion this is just a trick from M. to cheat on emmision test because this behaivier started only the first 7 charges for my car and a way for M not to replace very poorly made batteries by lowering software battery capacity so in case the buyer requests a full capacity test the car battery can be programmed to over 70% capacity, value that is above M warranty and value that will stay for a couple of weeks. After that the software will start lowering the battery capacity indiferent of what you do with the car. Please stay away from this problem of a car.
Hi Andy, thanks for video and all your effort to date so far. My vehicle in down to 68%(26Ah) on the dog. Have discussed with dealer and raised a case with MMAL, all generic responses that everything is normal and I should have expected degradation. Best response was, “the vehicle is a Hybrid vehicle, and is not designed to rely solely on stored EV power alone. The pure EV range of the vehicle will lessen with age.” I an in Brisbane and like to know how to join TeamPHEV.
Send me an email (under my channel -> About)
Recently In Norway, after court battle, first customer has received a price reduction of 20,000 norwegian krones from seller.
Oslo District Court believes that Mitsubishi has given incorrect and misleading information about the range.
Interesting that this is still ongoing...
@@unpluggedEV ohh yess..
It may ends with obligatory pay back that amounts, to every owner who bought car they while Mitsubishi claimed 54kme of range in the advertisement I think since 2020 or end of 2019 they claim only 45km.
Btw, last Easter I have sold mine (model'19) and bought Tesla X '17 😁
For me as a buyer of an Outlander PHEV, the battery capacity value is not the issue, it is the decreased driving range. If it is advertised as having a certain driving range and then that range is decreased a lot, then that should be a question about the product guarantee. Based on this, I would like to calculate the capacity loss as the available capacity above 30%, which means that a loss of capacity of 20% SoH in reality implies that only 50/70=71% of the driving range is available. Giving a guarantee that the battery should have 70% of the capacity left and then say that out of these 70% only 40/70=57% are usable is very mis-leading. So if we assume that a new car has a driving range of 56km (as advertized in Sweden), then one should expect that it is only 32km after eight years (when the guarantee ends). That is extremely misleading. The actual driving range for me is currently (after two years, 380000km with 31.1 Ah indicated by the BMU) around 36km if I avoid the highway and limit the driving to 80km/h. Nine months ago I managed to get out around 43km on a single charge and I was then also driving on the highway at 100km/h for 15km.
So as I see it, we shouldn't focus on the battery, we should focus on that the advertised driving range is quickly degenerating. The battery may be the cause of it, but as long as I get the advertised driving range without degeneration over time, I wouldn't care at all about whether the battery degenerates or not. This is where Mitsubishi have made their big mistake, they haven't thought about the consequences for the buyer in terms of battery driving range. And this is specific to hybrid cars as these are designed to take you to work and home (for most muyers at least) and you buy them (with some margin) based on what the seller advertises in terms of driving range.
Thanks Jan. That is how it started, loss of driving range in EV mode. We're now several steps ahead of this and are trying to get to the cause of the problem. Mitsubishi won't do it but we will.
As you said, we as customer should not really care why and how this happened, the outcome is important and the vehicle does not perform as expected and advertised. So what's next?
...and let's not forget about the 1.9L/100km it was never possible with my car
I looked a bit deeper into my driving logs and found something interesting, maybe you've encountered that previously as well, I identified that the number of Ah was higher than what the Watchdog showed in SoH. The SoH is calculated using 31.1Ah, while I on the 30th of May started a drive at 32.8Ah in the battery. It was showing 105.5% of charge in the PHEV watchdog. The odd thing this day was that I did not drive in the morning, but started at lunch-time as I had the day off from work. This means that the battery temperature was a bit higher than normal, furthermore I charged the car in the morning, not overnight. This is however not visible in the battery temperature that was only two degrees above the temperature outside. I am sorry to say that I have no detailed logs for that trip, otherwise I could've plotted the trip to find out whether it actually gave better performance.
Looking back into history, I found my oldest log from the 12th of January (when I started to use PHEV Watchdog) and then the capacity was at 31.8Ah. On the 27th of February, the capacity was at 31.6Ah and now it is at 31.1. I need to fetch the logs from March and April from another phone to get the full picture, but it seems like I have a drop of 0.1Ah roughly every 2-3 weeks, but it is very close to dropping 0.1Ah every 1000km as well, but that might just be my driving patterns. Using your algorithm I get exactly the same degradation as I have in my logs (even though only over a few months), so you definitely seem to be on track with that one.
And today I picked up my car while it was still charging and it was at 31.7Ah and 102%. This was from "empty" and after charging for 1h45m at 16A. After I drove 20km, the guessometer says that I have 25km left in the battery, the same battery that yesterday only lasted for 34km. Battery level was at 70%, leaving roughly 4/7=57%. 25/45 (kilometers) gives roughly 56% left.
I really don't get it, how is the car charger working and what happens after it is ready?
Furthermore, earlier during the day after parking for 30min with less than a half battery level, I got 2km extra in range just by parking. The only thing I can think of is that temperature of the battery makes a huge difference in terms of capacity. Maybe the battery box should've been better insulated and heated/cooled?
As my car behaved this afternoon, I was actually at 1.95l/100km. But that was not the normal behavior (see my latest post here). Perhaps one should have the car parked in a garage with 25 degrees to get maximum range out if it? That was the temperature if the battery when getting those freak numbers today.
Sooo...deadline's over, right Andy? Let's send the letter and make them aware of the petition.
MMC is getting a visit from MMAL to clear things up. However we should not wait but send the letter this week. I've got something on the next few days but will send it off before the weekend. 1500 people cannot be wrong, right?!
Andy your doing a good job and Gary Reed too... i wanted to buy a Mitsubishi PHEV but i decided too wait, you are my inspire guys lol Andy and Gary THANKS!!!! SO mitsub!!!!... you are loosing a customer---- ME!!!!! i'm from Montreal
Thanks for your feedback. It's a shame, right, as the car is brilliant otherwise...
Hello Andy,
I have a 2020 PHEV purchased last year. It has 22,000km and just recently we have had issues with it not staying in EV mode. It continuously cancels. I was hoping you might be able to provide some advice. I was unaware of the battery/software problems and now wish I never bought the vehicle. We have a service date with the dealership next week. What should I discuss with them? Also should we stop driving in purely EV mode to preserve the battery life?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Hi Andy, thanks for another terrific video. Like all other Outlander PHEV owners I have this same issue. However, there are two questions I have. Does the data you've seen indicate if the capacity loss 'levels off' at some point and cease to decline further? I've also wondered why Mitsubishi doesn't perform the resets with each oil change to at least reduce the impact, even if it does start the decline over again.
Rob Tidy There is zero evidence of it leveling off, and in fact in some cars it seems to actually accelerate. 👎
It won't level off unfortunately. That's why we believe it's not actual degradation but 'software-degradation'. I'll do a separate video this week explaining this in detail.
The procedures do not work for long and just repeating them is not a solution. The software is supposed to take care of the battery. It cannot do this if you reset it every year. Yes this will keep the capacity up but will wreck the battery as it is not been monitored correctly.
Does Mitsubishi have a replacement BMU with a fix? How much does it cost?
Ya my dealer don’t know anything about the problems also.
Hello, I have an Outlander PHEV since July 2020 in Spain and since then I have not noticed this issue from the BMU. My autonomy in EV mode is still 50-55 km and I have not noticed even in winter any decrease.
I do not know if it is still a short time to check if this error exists, or perhaps it is that in the 2020 model it is already solved, because I have read that for previous models, today, it is already possible to update the software of the BMU at the dealer for free and that the 2020 version may already have the correction installed.
Hi Andy, Thanks for another well done and entertaining Unplugged EV epp! I note in your summary video that you still believe these battery issues are purely software related. Sorry Andy i disagree that software is the only issue with the Outlander PHEV. I believe it is a combination of complex factors. Please forgive my technical preamble in an attempt to increase your understanding of my reasoning..I do eventually get to my point ......
The typical Charging process of a Li ION cell can perhaps be best described as a simple three stage process - 1 “constant current” stage determined by the charge rate supplied from the external charger, 2 “constant voltage” stage determined by the charge target voltage, and finally 3 “Charge completed” stage determined by the charge possible in the battery. There are differences between the common Li ION chemistries of course in terms of the maximum charge target voltages and of course the construction of the cells will determine their initial Charge Capacity in conjunction with their chemistries. Li Cobalt Cells have a maximum charge target of 4.2vdc , Li Manganese cells have a maximum charge target voltage of 4.1vdc and Li PO cells have a maximum charge target voltage of 3.6vdc but these maximum target voltages can vary from these values as determined by the cell manufacturer and specifications.
In the Case of the Yuasu LEV40, LEV50 and later LEV50N Li Maganese cells The maximum usable charge voltages is specified as 4.1vdc/cell. Naturally charging to the Maximum determined by the Li ION battery chemistry will cause accelerated battery degradation due to voltage stress if routinely charged to 4.1volts. In 3 stage charging, the process determined by the cell target voltage and the current characteristics throughout the charge. Stage 1: constant Current, Stage 2: constant Voltage and finally Stage 3: Charge End when the charge current falls to around 0.05 C for the cell.
As battery degradation occurs with use, the time spent charging in Stage 1 decreases while the time spent charging in stage 2 increases. Usually the time to stage 3 remains about the same for the same initial (SOC) state of charge. So an indication of cell degradation can be calculated in two easy ways from the actual cell voltage or current when charging - one is by measuring the constant current time or when the target voltage is reached. Two is measuring the time stage 2 takes to complete. Both methods of measuring battery degradation would be simple to implement with only a few extra lines of code within an intelligent (BMS) battery management system program.
Another way to indicate the battery degradation would be to measure the span cell voltages when stage 1 ends and prior to cell balancing for the battery as a whole, weaker cells will normally have higher cell voltages than the cells with more charge capacity. These weaker cells will need to be partially discharged by the cell balancing circuits before stage 2 charging can safely complete. From the difference in cell voltages the overall battery capacity can be calculated. High state of charge cell charge balancing will occur prior to stage 3 as required under normal circumstances to avoid critical high voltage stress damage to the more degraded cells in the battery.
From the detailed specifications of the later LEV50 batteries (found under this link - www.gs-yuasa.com/en/technic/vol5/no1.html ) it is obvious that the Outlander PHEV when routinely operated as an EV is using these and earlier LEV40 or LEV50 batteries at the absolute upper limit of their usable voltage range! Which will cause unavoidable voltage stress and accelerated battery degradation with every charge cycle! Yasua are charting 15% capasity degradation for 1000 charge cycles with a controlled 25 oC for the superior LEV50N batteries. Under real life conditions and higher cell temperatures the degradation will naturally be even faster.
From all this information currently available, charging Outlander PHEV above about 55% of the available charge capacity at 4.1vdc is going to cause voltage stress on some of the already degraded cells and rapidly degrade them further. It may be possible to successfully manage this issue manually but a consequence will be shorter EV range and a more labour intensive charging regime.
However a better way may be for Mitsubishi to allow the battery charge target voltage to be lowered to between 3.95 and 4.0vdc/cell if requested by the EV mode using owners. Assuming that the charge target voltage can be programmed in the Outlander PHEV system software. This would require the BMU to switch to Stage 2 “constant voltage” charging at about 10% lower(SOC) state of charge than currently at about 60% SOC with the maximum target voltage of 4.1vdc/cell. If this could be implemented The EV range might drop 10% - 15% but the accelerated battery degradation would no longer be a such an issue for owners that mainly drive it in EV mode.....
Since Mitsubishi have at this point failed to meet your deadline Andy perhaps it might be worth asking Mitsubishi if they can possibly use you as a test subject to test the lower charge target voltage as a PHEV fix. Assuming of course that you agree with my reasoning about what is really the problem with the PHEV at all .... Cheers :)
Sorry Nigel, your comment always land in my spam and I have to release them manually :D
Very good summary of the problem. And as you say, its a dam good car, and thats why it matters to us! I wish that Donald Trump could go to Japan, take Mitsubishi in the ear, and make the PHEV great again :D
What is the 4WD problem?
signed, great ideea !
Thank you Andy!
If you have a good understanding of where this issue relies in relation to the Australian warranty is there a chance you may make a video about it.
Is there anyone in the Wangaratta area with a "dog setup" so I don't have to chase up an android phone. At the next service I will request an Ah and state of health status and I want to compare it to the Dog read out.
That's what we have the TeamPHEV forum for. Send me an email...
I'm trying to figure out how your PHEV loses 0.1Ah capacity roughly every 4 days given the BMU software loss calcuations described in ep. 190. From ep. 190 I expected to see 0.1Ah secular loss every month or so and 0.4Ah loss every 6200Ah charged/discharged. For my 2018 Outlander using these calculations matches the loss in capacity te dog shows pretty close to exactly. Are you charging/discharging 1550 Ah every 4 days? That can't be possible. So I'm clearly misunderstanding something.
We don't know, Ken. It's a mystery, right? I charge/discharge around 140Ah/week. The calculations is just what Gerard saw when looking at the code. Yes, Mitsubishi has confirmed that the BMU is using only the time and cycles to estimate SOH but there might be more to it than we actually see...
Hi Andy have some questions how to check and on what to take consider/attention when baying used Outlander EV
All best from Ireland :)
Thank you Jacek. What does the warranty look like over there in terms of the battery?
Hi Andy. Quick question, are Tesla chargers compatible with the Outlander?
You need an adapter as shown in EP20. Some Tesla destination chargers are only working for Teslas though some others work with any other EV.
@@unpluggedEV Thanks Andy. Will have a look at that episode. Must have missed it...
Out of curiosity I looked at that episode (is this something that I can build my-self?). Based on my experience of building my own charging station for the Outlander, as well as building an adapter from Type2 to Schuko for my daughters Twizy (that looked extremely similar to the adater for Tesla, I even used the same switch at the same location in the handle for it), I would say that the adapter from the Tesla connector is probably just a few resistors (probably on the proximity pilot connector side) that are different from the ordinary Mennekes (type2) connector. I haven't found the specifications though.
Anyone interested can look at Wikipedia (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772) where most of the "magic" is explained very well. That explanation is for Type1, but all of the electronics are the same as for Type2, except for the use of the proximity pilot pin on the charge-box side. How to build an adapter from type2 to Schuko (or any other 230/240V system connector) can be found here(www.goingelectric.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5605&start=20), where the use of the proximity pilot is explained (connect via a 680 Ohm resistor to PE). The picture is what is of interest, the text is in German.
Building a charger or an adapter for the Outlander is not hard - if you know your way around electronics. For the charger basic C/C++ programming is also good to have. In my case I built the charger around a "NodeMCU D1 mini" micro controller (ESP8266 CPU).
@@ervjhb Yes, you can build your own adapter. There is no electronic inside, just a few resistors as you explained it. I've got a circuit diagram here for everyone interested (email).
So? Why do you still Talk about Battery Degeneration? You figured out, very clear, it is a simple software-Issue.
Great comment Bjoern! You need to ask your friends at Mitsubishi why they still telling everyone it's the actual battery and NOT software. I'm trying to proof the opposite, can you not see that? If they keep insisting on blaming the hardware, the car is doomed, dead and an insult of fraud marketing. If it's just a 'simple software-issue' why is it not been fixed already? The problem is known since 2014.
But good to see you as a problem-denier and naysayer are interested in this topic now. With your connections to Mitsubishi you could help the community to get this resolved and make the PHEV great again. This does not happen by refusing to acknowledge the problem and telling everyone not to worry though. You need to pull your head out of the sand first and start constructively working on this problem with the manufacturer. This issue won't go away any more.
Let me know if you're really interested in helping with this or want to keep refusing the problem actually exists...
Still denying what you said in the beginning. It is not a battery-issue. Now - you made it clear - now, there is a point to talk about.
But anyway - the problem is so much smaller. You just blow it up.
i'm pretty confident, that - after the company gets aware of it, they will fix it.
@@BakedPineapple1 So, why is he always talking about battery degradtion?
Bjoern,
sorry to say that, but it's an existing problem related to the outcoming EV range. Got my MY2019 in December 2018 and my EV range was in winter time 40 ~ 45km with heating, now we have spring and my EV range is reduced to 35 ~ 40km (no AC using) with same daily driving conditions, same way. Should it not be more if the temperature goes up ?
Another point is, my maximum rechargeable capacity right now from 28% to full is about 8,5kw. KM driven till now 13500 and SOH = 37,5AH = 85,2% among wrong 44AH registered in the BMU. If this SW degredation runs similar till now, the 70% will be reached Nov 2020 with approx 45000km !
Charging is like this, AC : 73%, DC : 27%.
And we have seen this on the Nissan Leaf, that it is possible to correct the Software :-)
Gruss, Sven
i got the same problem with batteries
What year was made your PHEV?I wanna get PHEV 2019
I've got a MY14.5.
@@unpluggedEV 2014?
@@alexman340 It's a model year 2014.5, short MY14.5
Hi Andi. The charging stops always on 4.1V. So if the Voltage show us when the Battery is full by lower take energy than the degradation is not software related.... it's true 😢
I don't quite get that point, sorry.
The charging stops at 4.1V. From there on the software counts down it estimated Ah until it fires the engine (ATTN there is no stop voltage). If the estimates are far to low it starts the engine a lot earlier right! How is this not software related?
Is there a way we can reset the BMU ourselves??
Not possible. Only the MUT at the dealer can do this...
Change.org dosent work?
Not work website change org
Anybody in Norway has this problem maybe?
I guess everyone got the problem. Here is a Norwegian group for that: facebook.com/groups/2193599527399011
This SUV is not exactly cheap! If you live in a house with a driveway or garage or have access to home/work charger(EVSE), do yourself a favor and order a Tesla Model Y instead. You never have to worry about dealers, oil changes, servicing, parts, oil filters, fuel filters, exhaust repairs, transmissions, clutches, starters, ignition, spark plugs, fuel tanks, etc etc etc. GO anywhere thanks to the incredible and (non-profit) Tesla Supercharger network. This is a no brainier! Buy a car from a company that ONLY manufactures 100% electric vehicles and NO fossil burning vehicles. All other Big Automakers are just making EVs to comply with emissions regulations.
I'm looking at the Y but it will be still 2 years away. Minimum...
Exactly the emissions in the PHEV are a big problem as they continuously getting worse after a short period of time. I don't understand why governments who subsidise these PHEVs not looking into this.
@@unpluggedEV In EU where this F of a car is subsidies with up to 4400 Euro because is
Does somenone know if the problem of the battery is now solved? I'm right in buying such a car, but with this problem?????
It is phantastic, that you are doing such a terrible job. Lot of controling and and and..
2020 model still got the same feature.
@@unpluggedEV So I have to control thew battery to have the full lifetime of the driving system?