Very compelling. Yes, I got to the end. I think it couldn't be more clear in scripture that the spiritual directly effects the physical, and even the end state of creation is for the spiritual and physical to be manifested and united as one.
As a veterinarian, and a pastor, I have thought about animal death/pain for years. It’s been hard to have an exact explanation, and I’ve dwelled on a mixture of developmentalism + fallenness (as you’ve called them) but I think this adds an immensely valuable element! Excited for more, Thank you Gavin!
God made it so....the dietary laws given by Moses to the Israelites, 3000 years ago! Herbivores that obtain their food by grazing or browsing on grasses and other plants. These are the animals which you may eat among all the beasts’ that are on the earth... whatever divides the hoof having cloven hooves and chewing the cud. These animals have four-chambered stomachs that convert grasses that are inedible to humans and other animals into nutritious, high-quality protein products (meat and milk) that people can then use for food. The dietary laws prohibit the consumption of all carnivorous animals and omnivorous animals for very logical reasons. God created clean animals to provide food and by-products for human use. He created animals unsuitable for human consumption for other purposes. Carnivores, as beasts of prey, play an important role in controlling the populations of other animals. As an example, wolves and mountain lions, which feed on herds of deer, control not only numbers but also help maintain the health of the herd by culling out older, sick or infirm animals. Biblically "clean fish" are generally free swimming in bodies of water. Most "unclean" fish are either bottom dwellers or predatory scavengers. Shellfish, lacking both fins and scales, are clearly excluded by the biblical dietary laws.. They are "bottom walkers" and "predatory scavengers" Crabs are referred to as "professional garbage hunters" and as "scavengers" that eat almost anything. These organisms were all created for a very important ecological purpose. They are, in essence, the "garbage collectors" or the "cleanup crew" for the bottoms of lakes, rivers, beaches, bays and oceans. They were not intended to be food for human beings. The biblical dietary laws are simple, rational, practical and profound. Long before human beings knew the details of disease-causing microorganisms, life cycles of parasites or global ecology, God revealed powerful principles that would provide safe, healthful food and prevent the spread of disease for anyone who would be willing to follow these instructions. Unclean animals that were physically unhealthy to eat in the days of Moses are just as unhealthy today.
@@jamesrey3221 Dude, the whole dietary laws were about how God determines what is clean and unclean. It was never about food but to remind Jews that there is such thing as "clean" and "unclean" and it's God who has the authority and not man.
Common misconception: "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 This is retconning the category of “Jew”. To believe this is to deny that the Jews who wrote the Book of Jubilees, 1 Enoch, etc (ie the 2nd Temple Texts that Rabbinical Judaism later declared heretical) were not really “Jews” The idea of angelic rebellion - a Rabbinical Jewish friend of mine calls it ‘Enochian’ as in 1 Enoch (not to be confused with the occult term from 16th Century England) - is at least as old as the Essenes / Dead Sea Scrolls And hey, not my business to try and assert myself into the middle of an argument about who was really “Jewish”, but at minimum the idea that [this all was just some Greek/occult influence or syncretism] is quite simply false
Made it all the way to the end 🙌🏽. "I'd rather just believe and be duped. I'd rather believe in God and believe in angels and be duped than not believe. Because I've stared down the other direction and not only do I think it's less plausible, but it's just such a barren worldview...a Christian imagination allows you to look up at the stars at night and it couldn't be more enchanting. What you're looking at is beauty and wonder, and there is something behind it all." Love it 🙌🏽🔥
Interesting thoughts. Been writing on a small book on this and divine hiddenness for last 10 months. We need to get vocal on these topics to minimize the amount who jump on shallow slogans and memes to them as a serious response.
I made it all the way to the end :) I first started to feel the re-enchantment of the spiritual world when I read Heiser’s “The Unseen Realm”, and continued as I recently read “Out of the Silent Planet” and “Perelandra” for the first time (That Hideous Strength is next on my list!). I think Heiser’s views segue nicely with the theodicy presented here, but it’s a tough sell for many modern Christians. As a long-time old earth creationist myself, the problem of natural evil has always been my most difficult challenge, so thanks for the video and giving me some more categories to connect different parts of theology together.
I was thinking of Heiser and adjacent theologians while watching this, too. I have had a similar experience as you with "re-enchantment" and getting to relearn these old ideas. I think this video is very helpful in making ideas like Heiser's more palatable because something like theodicy and natural evil is something that is much more relevant to most people today, as opposed to (for example) whether or not the nephilim were actual giants.
Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you very much for making this video. With every video you make, I feel like I have another puzzle piece to help build my unified worldview as a Christian. I've recently been so discouraged and angered by seeing self-identifying Christians online and around me characterized by so much hate, ignorance, and general distain for seeking truth outside their bubles of familiarity. I can't even talk about Christian theology with fellow Christians because many of them are so stubbornly and bitterly set in their views regardless of what scripture, the historic Church, or the natural world teaches us. Seeing your work and your own character represent a body of Christians who can be lovers of knowledge, reason, history, and above all; peace and charity, has been incredibly helpful to me. Please continue producing these videos, and God bless.
Made it through! That’s saying something coming from a guy with two boys, aged 6 and 3. I’ve been cautiously walking down this path for a couple years now. Michael Heiser really opened up a new world for me and I feel this just adds layers to those thoughts. Loved the work you’ve done bridging the early church fathers with Tolkien and Lewis. Great stuff Gavin. Thank you.
Made it to the end! I'm a young earth creationist and I still think you are awesome! And no, this is not a crazy idea. Like you pointed out. Even those of us in the YEC camp still have to address things like the serpent in the garden being evil before the fall of man. Also where did Adam's evil desire come from before his fall? How can a perfect being even consider sinning much less choose to actually sin? This has led me to make a distinction between the ideas that Adam was perfect at his creation as apposed to just being merely sinless at his creation. He was capable of sin and in that sense he was not perfect like YHWH is perfect Who cannot sin. Very interesting video.
@@anthonywhitney634 I do too. I was thinking about offering a friendly critique of what Gavin said about YEC but I thought maybe I would wait for his video about YEC first.
Here’s another question. Who temped Lucifer to become prideful? If sin cannot be in the presence of God and Lucifer was created to worship and serve God, then where did the temptation to sin (Lucifer wanting to be worshipped or do his own will) come from?
@@MichaelBravine1 Why do you assume Lucifer had to be tempted Maybe he was created with free will, actual autonomy in decision making. What if Gods sovereignty is far greater than our finite brains could even entertain. 🤔
@@MichaelBravine1I think we will have the capacity to sin in heaven but always choose not to as all your needs will be met. We will have no reason to ever rebel. We understand the consequences of sin and desire God's holiness. Adam and Eve had not yet learned the complete reason to not sin before the fall of man I believe.
Thanks Gavin. You don't scare us young-earth (leaning) creationists away - at least not all of us. This is a new concept for me, but seems accessible to the young-earth view, and I am interested to learn more about it. Looking forward to hearing your engagement with Augustine's doctrine of creation and young/old earth creationism!
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
Thanks for your work. I love listening to your videos! I'm a retired missionary. I ministered for 14 years in 2 countries where most Christians are Orthodox (Egypt and Russia). I've been curious how many of the Catholic and Orthodoxy believes came about, which your videos give great insight into.
I made it to the end!! This is one of your most exciting videos yet. Gavin, thanks for sharing your devotion to God by edifying us! Usually I feel too intimidated by your vast knowledge of church history to bother trying to dialogue, but this was super relatable. To look up at the stars and at the beauty of nature is something that God gifted us to make His existence apparent on earth. Acknowledging and engaging these kinds of mysteries really does bring enchantment into one's soul - it's the best way to feel like a kid full of wonder all over again! And didn't Jesus say to be like the little children is what we ought to aim for in some way? To love fellowship with each other in the way of discussing God's amazing and mysterious creations and providence will never get us to the final answer but it's endless fun (definitely the opposite of a barren perspective) and these puzzles are one of the many things to look forward to - I personally can't wait to know all the answers to these paradoxical riddles once we are with God! ❤😊 Thank you again for this video!
Watching this again, As a YEC I see ultimately the natural evil problem needs more of an explanation then just no sin or evil before the fall. There is still 7500 years of natural destruction that’s lead to the death of millions. The angelic theodicy described is actually pretty awesome! It makes a lot of sense
Watch the whole thing! I recently read Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and he spoke on similar ideas. It was really interesting and gave interesting perspective on the effect of the angels' fall. He explained it a bit differently but they both share a similar premise. He didn't really use early church historians as reference so it's cool to see what the early Christians may have believed. Granted his focus wasn't on the corrupting of nature but this is such a facinating topic that I always have a hard time articulating. These are definitely things that have come up in my mind in passing so thanks for another cool video and giving all the references!
“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God?” This video reminded me of this Emerson quote. Thanks for your work, this one was very illuminating :)
Not weird! It’s certainly interesting. My mind is trying to make sense of how it’s possible for Satan to be “the ruler of this world” (John12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and yet at the same time Christ has “All authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18).
Made it to the end. I’ve recently wrestled with this problem. As I considered the interaction of the creation in Genesis with evolutionary discoveries and felt intuitively that this was a possibility. Glad to see there is orthodox historical and intellectual precedent for it.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
What an amazing video. Just finished it, and I couldn't be more impressed. What a beautiful theology, and a beautiful ending. Thank you so much for everything you do.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943, stop quoting Jesus in a misleading way! You will be called to account in the way you represent him. When Jesus instructed his disciples not to preach to the Gentiles, that was in a specific context. Matthew 10 is called the limited commission. After Jesus death and resurrection, he sent his disciples out into all nations, to the gentiles as well as the Jews. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28.
@@aldencole6714 "In a misleading way " a bit ironic. Also representing him? I'm just showing the quote that says preach to gentiles or samaritans. So for your argument you believe he changed his mind after the crucifixion ?
@@happymate8943 Jesus' mission was to the Jew first, then to the Greek, as Paul says speaking in the Spirit in Romans 1:16 and as is obvious throughout the entire NT and OT. Read through the Bible and you will see it! Look at Jesus' talking about his role as Shepherd in Jn 10:16, or the Revelation given to Peter in Acts 11. Once the gospel of Jesus' Lordship was spread to the Jews, it was then spread to the gentiles.
@@aldencole6714 You realize paul never met or followed jesus during his time alive? Also saying a "spirit" of him going to paul, who never met jesus and persecuted his followers, in order tell to convert gentiles sounds unbelievable. Also peter argued with paul over somthing like that as well.
Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you so much for making this video. For me it was very timely and I thought you made a very good case. I've read the silmarillion and Tolkien's essay on the importance of myths, and I've picked up some of these ideas from him. I agree with you and your brother in that video where you guys discussed theology a few years back that there is something in paganism that is compelling and I see this as an idea that not only helps with the problem of evil in the natural world but also harmonizes the feeling of wonder in the world as you described with the Christian worldview. You're also entirely correct that the modern worldviews, including the Christian ones, often seem to miss out on this to a great extent. As an engineer, I've often attributed that to the mechanical way we almost always view the world now. Dispassionate laws govern everything rather than personal forces the way people used to see things. Obviously that's helped make progress technologically but has also promoted feelings of meaninglessness as we view reality. Even Satan and angelic forces and maybe even the holy spirit are seen as those same sort of impersonal forces. I started reading paradise lost recently and Milton's analysis of Satan and his reasoning were mind blowing to me. I think if we were to recover a view that recognized both the spiritual component to reality and the personal level that the spiritual reality exists in we would be better off. Of course I should offer the disclaimer that I don't think it's healthy to believe every little thing is demonic or whatnot, only that as you said it would help restore a sense of wonder and I think it would help us to take certain things more seriously, praying as we should for example. Anyway thanks again for making this video, I thought it was great and would love more content around this topic!
Made it to the end. This is not crazy and can be found in the Scriptures. Speaking of the unseen realm without mentionning Michael S Heiser is a crime (that was is life's work). I highly suggest to everyone who is interested in this topic to go read Unseen Realm by Michael S Heiser (or Supernatural, the less academic version). All of this is found in the Bible ; no speculation needed. God bless.
Hi, Gavin. First of all, thank you for yet another amazing video. I've been watching your videos on this whole topic of the origins for some days now, and I'm amazed not only with the clarity and depth of your argumentation, but mainly with the carefulness with which you deal with this sensitive topic and the grace with which you treat the ones that possibly disagree with you on that. It's been very humbling to watch the way you "speak the truth in love". Also, I couldn't help but notice how you held back your tears at the end when talking about the re-enchantment of the world. I am greatly thankful to God for putting in my way examples of how one can be intelectually rigourous and deep and, at the same time, passionate for the wonderful works of God. It's been a gush of fresh air to meet reasonable, faithful and wise brothers in such times as the one we're living on. I would very much like to meet you one day and give you hug, if I'm allowed to, for the encouragement I've been receiving, as an academic christian, from your videos. Thank you very much, and God bless your work and your ministry.
Dr. Ortlund outstanding! Because of our “advanced” technology, we often consider the pre-modern man to be ignorant in all things and that is where we are sadly mistaken. We need to rely and trust in the wisdom and inspiration of the great thinkers and fathers of the church. In many ways they saw the nature of the creation much clearer than modern man.
Thank you. I watched the whole video. Only my second video of you I’ve seen. Subbed. 😊 TBH, I’m not a Christian, but I very much want to be. I really want the Bible to be true, but I can’t simply make myself believe. I’ve tried. I’ve visited many churches and had long conversations with many pastors over the last few years. So, I consider myself an agnostic now, but can’t fully believe in atheism or strict naturalism either. I’m kind of in a limbo state now following a Buddhist path. Yet, I find the lack of a meaningful theology in Buddhism unsatisfying. I’m a conservative and reject many of the secular degeneracies I see around me in the modern world. I believe in objective morality. Yet, despite all of my seeking, I have yet to find God. I keep looking for God, but this issue of natural evil is one of the two biggest hurdles against believing in God as presented in the Bible. (The other big hurdle for me is the topic of divine hiddenness, btw.) I need to marinate in your ideas more, but I very much appreciate the food for thought! As a normal person (and not a philosopher per se), I don’t know all of the history or people or works you mentioned. I was happy to learn about some new viewpoints that seem to align with my own intuitions, such as that this earthly life is a kind of training camp for the afterlife. I think suffering is absolutely necessary for the development of our souls and our morality. I even had an instant epiphany (which I quickly rejected - but still could make for an interesting fiction book) when you noted that demons are incarcerated in the earth. I wondered… what if we are actually all demons ourselves and our lives are attempts to learn from suffering and redeem ourselves so we can one day re-enter God’s heavenly kingdom?!? But then I quickly realized that the Bible clearly delineates a difference between humans and demons (or angels). While it was an interesting thought, I don’t think there is any solid theological basis to believe that our souls are actually fallen angels. As I said though, maybe it could make for a good fiction book!
Something that helped me in my belief in Christianity was looking into the ressurection, the historical facts behind the empty tomb and accounts, the transformation in the view of James the skeptic brother of Jesus, the willingness of all the disciples to die without renouncing belief in Jesus's ressurection and the fact that based upon the Jewish beliefs at the time to come up with or hallucinate the ressurection wouldn't happen as individual ressurection was never thought of and ascension like Elijahs would be a more natural idea.
I made it to the end. I definitely think this way of thinking about angles makes a lot of sense and adds something very important to the Christian worldview. Thanks Gavin!
Common misconception: "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
Made it through. I think I'm about to combine Angel Fall theodicy with Young Earth Creationism. I think YEC is just the natural way to read genesis. Romans 5 also suggests that death came with the sin of man, and not billions and billions of years before any human being ever walked the face of the earth.
Can we do that? Can we combine the 2? 😁 I hope so, because I'm also YEC but this theory makes a lot of sense to me. I hope he does another video on it soon.
@@justchilling704 I'm not sure if I correctly understand the wording of your question, but the view I've been taught, or the way I understand it at least, is that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", i.e. basically the elements and the waters and some sort of core of the 🌎 that was maybe covered in water. But no animals or visible dry land yet, and it was "formless and void" until after God did the separating of the waters and brought forth dry land. I know some YEC say that verse 1 is a catch-all summary of the verses that follow, but I guess I don't believe that.
@@prophet32us Okay I was just curious and you did capture my point. Now that I think of it the way I worded my reply may have come across like I don’t think the universe had a beginning or something which biblically is absurd. I think God created the earth in that void or formless state first.
Yeah, cool. Thanks for asking. Really. I am trying to learn more about the old earth creationist point of view and all this stuff fascinates me, anyway. It's fun and rather awe-inspiring to consider.
Thank you for this video, Gavin! I think this is a superb representation of the traditional Christian imagination on the subject. We all of us have been deracinated of our Christian ethos with the scientific revolution and enlightenment. What I loved about this video is that it seems to have pointed a way forward, so that both the truth of science and the truth of the supernatural can dovetail into one whole reality. P. S. Made it to the end.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 while Jesus was announcing the kingdom of God in Galilee and Judea, he primarily focused on a Jewish audience, all the while including gentiles whom the Father had prepared to receive healing and salvation. After his resurrection, Christ threw open the kingdom of God for the whole world (see Matthew 28). There is no misconception as to the term ha satan (the accuser). While the term does not connote a proper noun in the sense of a name, there is no doubt that Jesus used the idea of Satan or the devil to refer to the ruler of this age who has been a liar from the beginning (John 8:44). With regard to your notion of a war I Heaven being a pagan importation, I find this highly dubious and unconvincing. In the Apocalypse of John there is a war in heaven. In Genesis 6 there is a rebellion of angelic beings. And before all of that, there was a primordial enemy in serpent form in the Garden of God, temping humans away from fealty to the LORD.
I love these conversations and I feel like some of the considerations that seem the most bizarre on their immediate face, upon further thought, end up being the most logical and almost undeniable to be true. There is no denying that the spiritual realm is so much more intimately entwined with our material realm than we realize. I have been journeying through Michael Heiser's work in recent years and seeing all of creation with fresh eyes. I'm grateful to have come across your channel and it has been so edifying and enriching. Thank you Gavin!
Made it to the end. This idea helped me yrs ago to let go of my YE Creationism. So glad to hear that it has a heritage. I must say, you have inspired me to imagine further. I still have some questions and hangups, but this explanation seems at least as plausible as any other to my mind.
I will also say, I am very intrigued with the notion that angels (and demons) are behind the material world we experience and were assigned roles in sustaining, governing, and possibly manipulating, different facets of the physical world. Truly fascinating! However, I am still uncomfortable with the idea, on biblical grounds, that angels contributed somehow to creation itself.
Thank you, Gavin. This is one of the best discussions about this issue (long troubling to me) I’ve encountered. I, too, believe the world is enchanted, shot through with Grace. We often fail to See what’s Real. Thank you for this. I’m so impressed with your work. As a very nearly Catholic (raised Presbyterian), and trained in philosophy and a 40 year student of theology, I appreciate you.
Man this is *such* a good video. Thank you for all of the work you've put in doing the research and writing it up in an accessible way. It's very impressive and I'm grateful that we live in this crazy RUclips world where I can benefit from it so easily. Thank you!
I’m a Catholic that enjoys watching your video despite disagreeing with you on a lot of stuff! But I must say that this is pretty much exactly what my view is and I don’t think it’s a strange theological opinion at all! Thanks for the video!
I believe you are exactly right. I was not taught this way I was not led to believe this in any way at all I have just always felt that everything you said is the truth. God bless you 🙏
Hi Gavin - I did indeed make it through to the end. I deeply appreciate the winsome way you present how you're thinking about a given topic. I hadn't ever heard of an angelic fall theodicy and to be honest, I'd always assumed that it had to be a given that there could be no ecosystems as we know them before the fall of man for the same kinds of reasons as Ken Ham articulates. After listening to you engage with some of his claims and being recommended this video by the algorithm, I'm so intrigued by the idea of "puncturing the despair" and that "thinking about angels re-enchants the world." I would love to see our Christian intellectual tradition recapture grandeur as a defining feature. It would be great if skeptics could look at us and say, "Well, I hate their conclusions, but at least they're not boring."
Made it through brother. Like a lot of the other comments I too find Heiser's perspective a very compelling one and this idea is very happy in that world view. This vid. was a timely one for me, really helped me get past some things I've been wrestling with so thanks for that!
Gavin, this is crazy - I was just thinking about a hypothesis like this as I've made the transition to an old earth creationist view. This feels very divinely inspired, and a sign from the Spirit's voice. Can't wait to watch!
Made it all the way to the end. This makes Out of the Silent Planet make so much more sense to me! I love the idea that we're re-enchanting the modern world! 🥰😭
Finished the video! I’ve been wrestling with this topic for awhile. This video came right in time. Thank you Gavin, not just for possible answers/hypothesis’s, but for the comfort of having like-minded brothers and sisters. As for the validity of the hypothesis I believe it holds some weight. Perhaps that’s because of my bias though. I am huge a fan of Dr. Heiser’s work (rest in peace) so I’m more apt to entertaining angelic/demonic/supernatural explanations to the world.
I made it to the end and my goodness, I am a Christian for more than a decade now, have read numerous systematic theologies and philosophical/scientific theology yet this one just amazed me like a child just starting to learn. I watched every second of this from beginning to end and I almost cried at your closing point saying that there is something more out there-because there DEFINITELY is. Psalm 8 captures this perfectly and the enchantment of the human soul never ceases, it may just be lost or blinded-which both need redirection/restoration from God Himself. This theodicy that you elaborated is incredibly feasible, Dr. Ortlund. I hope you would make more videos about this concerning its finer points. Thank you so much and God bless you. Soli Deo gloria!
I made it all the way through to the end! This is a very interesting topic, as you explained and unpacked things I had a lot of teachings of the late Dr. Michael Heiser in my head I believe that a lot of what he's taught pairs well with this idea.
I finished this! Thank you for opening my aperture a bit. The more I get into Lewis, the more I realize how saturated he was in ancient Christianity. I do have one question for clarification… if fallen angels were subverting the world during the very process of creation, how can it be said that it was good before the fall?
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
It makes total sense. As a pastor, studying to be an apologist, and an ardent Lewis and Tolkien admirer, I feel that this concept makes the most sense. Great content!
Thanks for sharing this subject with us. I previously learned about the relationship of angels to stars but I hadn’t considered this idea in relation to the problem of evil. And I always watch your videos to the end. 🙂
I just finished The Silmarillion a few months ago and am still trying to figure out how all this stuff fits together (Hugh Ross’s Old Earth Creationism seems to fall under developmentalism to me but I still don’t know how to make sense of how the fall of some angels could cause something like the second law of thermodynamics). 🤷🏽♂️ Thank you for the video and the taxonomy. That helps provide a grid for some of my thinking on this.
Made it all the way to the end! 1.5x speed of course... Thank you for this video Gavin - this is something I've been passionate about for years now, the re-enchantment of our modern world. Lewis broke me of my modernism, and That Hideous Strength is (in my view) the greatest novel of the 20th century. These kind of questions are vitally important to answer modern ways of thinking, especially because materialism and naturalism have made their way into the imagination of much of the Church. Ever since you mentioned this topic on Pints with Aquinas I've been mulling it over more, and you made a video just when I wished you would. Thanks for the thorough and fascinating watch!
Gavin, I loved the video! Thanks for the time you put into it. I just discovered you a few days ago and have been flying through your content. Your videos have been particularly helpful since I had been open to (and leaning towards )an “Old Earth” view, but came across answers in Genesis, and ran into the problem of death and disease before Adam and Eve’s fall. I looked for other possible answers to that question and asked people I know and no one had an answer, so I went back to the “Young Earth” camp, but still felt uneasy about ignoring all of the science, which I enjoy. I am excited to read your book and get more details! But I am glad to know that it is certainly more complex than I knew and that there are godly people who believe in the authority of scripture with different views on the subject. Also, it was great to hear all of the church fathers who didn’t hold the six literal days view. That was a hard pill for me to swallow thinking that every Christian before Darwin held that view, but it was great to see so many examples of the opposite! One last note, I have been so encouraged by you, Dane, and Eric in very different but also very personal and powerful ways, which is interesting to me. I actually found you by looking for more videos from Eric and saw your video about your favorite literature, which was fun! And I found him because of Dane. Thanks again!
Gavin, made it all the way to the end and enjoyed every second! I am a recent graduate from seminary with a philosophy and apologetics concentration and am familiar with most of the philosophers you mentioned. I think the fallen angel theodocy is brilliant and enchanting. I had a professor at seminary mention this idea but he quickly dismissed it without giving it due attention and weight. You did a fantastic job. I struggle with the problem of pre-fall animal suffering as well, and I think your explanation is coherent and convincing…also, shameless Tolkien lover here! Haha
I watched all the way to the end. This is a thought-provoking idea that's going to be bouncing around in my head for a while, so thank you for putting it out there. Also, regarding the idea that God made the world in an imperfect way in preparation for the Fall, this is consistent with St. Paul's comment in Romans about God subjecting the creation to futility (assuming you take that passage to refer to all of physical creation and not just humanity).
Dear Dr Ortlund, Once again so helpful!! I hardly have the words to express how much you have encouraged me through your videos. I have been a Christian for many years, and I desire to stay the course. I have listened numerous times to the video you posted about the struggles of faith that confront some of us. (deconstruction) I'm so grateful for your honesty! I have attended the same protestant church for many years and the few people I knew who had the ability to listen to my questions have left. I get the pat answers which ultimately do not help and then I conclude it's my duty to grit my teeth and just hang on till death. I never want to leave Jesus, constantly I recall the words of Peter “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" I love that you advised strugglers to find the right sort of Christian person who can help encouragingly. I understand biblically it is important to be in the body, in community. But when I encounter troubling issues it's tempting to withdraw. I also enjoyed your book "Humility" and the beautiful message you preach on Psalm 88. I could go on, but it's getting lengthy as it is. Just saying thanks! 💖
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@warrenjs You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
This is NOT WEIRD at all! I am so grateful to you for exploring this topic in a longer format, and dedicating so much of your time and effort to this extremely important topic! As a fan of both Lewis’ and Tolkein’s works - this offered a brilliant approach to helping explain how the angelic fall theodicy and natural evil are connected! I enjoyed this immensely, and will be sharing this video and your channel with friends who share and appreciate your approach to so many interesting topics! Many Blessings to you and your family!🇨🇦❤🇺🇸
Great video, Gavin, some interesting things to consider. I rarely think about the existence of angels, now I'm thinking of them everywhere. The last 2 minutes of this video got me choked up. Thanks for helping us think brother, I appreciate the intention you put into your videos.
(Edit: made it to the end!) Gavin, I think you would have loved engaging with Michael Heiser. Both of you as scholars have combined creative, imaginative thought with deep theology and historical/textual data. After I read The Unseen Realm and his other books, the Bible became even more a source of delight and appreciation for me. I also, at age 73, have been reading Tolkien and Lewis for over 60 years. I think I should add your colleague’s book on Tolkien theology to my collection.
I find this completely plausible and well supported in OT, NT and intertestamental Jewish literature. It dovetails beautifully with Dr. Michael Heiser’s work and, for me, has reconciled difficult scriptural references and illuminated the overarching Divine narrative that I have longed for for years.
Wow, i never knew about this concept. When you parallel it with Enoch and the role of Watchers and their different heavenly charges/responsibilities, it brings natural evil into a whole other light. Awesome, brother. Ty
This is an incredible concept! Plato even gets at this. In Timaeus there's a passage where he talks about God creating the gods and tasking them with the formation of the world and the governance of humanity. You could argue he sees the Greek pantheon as angels (maybe demons is more accurate in keeping with patristic thought). Thanks for sharing this! I'll be chewing on it for a while.
This was spectacular, I did watch to the end! This is the explanation I've needed to understand how animal suffering can exist before the *human* fall. This will give me much to ponder.
Made it to the end. Dr. Orlund, this idea is fantastic because it works best with scientific evidence and an orthodox hermeneutic. This video makes me what to write/research this topic myself. Thank you!
Made it all the way through! I've sometimes wondered if the general cynicism that is getting so common is at least partially due to light pollution blocking out a lot of the night sky (blocking out creation like that just isn't very conducive to giving a sense of wonder) so the idea that angels and stars could literally have something to do with each other is very interesting to me. As for whether angelic fall theodicy is crazy, it might be but that doesn't make it untrue, lol. Thanks for the video!
Made it all the way through! To be honest this is the first time I think about this. So this is my first approach to this issue. I always asked myself If before the man's fall the 2nd law of thermodynamics did not exist, which was weird in accordance to the previous natural history before man was created. Thank you for your insights
Finished the whole vid (as always)! Well, I think the idea makes sense. I'm a huge Tolkien fan and an Old Earth Creationist, so maybe I have no choice :) I really enjoyed your discussion in this video!
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
Made it to the end. You posted this at a good time, as some friends and I were having a discussion on this just earlier this week. I'm a newer Christian. Only been following Jesus for a bit over a year, and so I've spent a lot of time trying to learn and make up for lost time. I was talking with a friend who is an old-earth creationist a couple weeks ago, and I'd say I'm more so a theistic evolutionist. He asked me my thoughts on the fall of nature and how I reconciled that with evolution. It's led me to ponder that question quite a bit since he asked. Another friend held a similar view to yours, and we spent some time at church discussing this last Sunday. This video was quite helpful in providing some more depth to that worldview. I've watched quite a lot of your content throughout my journey, so I thank you for all you do. All the best.
Loved the video, Gavin! And yes, I made it to the end haha. If you wanted to keep the conversation going, a great guest to have on would be Dr. James Dolezal. James is excellent Baptist scholar, and has some great things to say about Angels, and many other topics. Thanks for all you do!
This was another great video, Gavin. And yes, I watched and was fascinated all the way to the end. I too have wrestled with aspects of the question you address of evil prior to the fall. For many of the same reasons you mentioned (Biblical, theological, scientific), a young earth explanation is unsatisfying. I had found William Dembski's idea of the fall having an effect both backwards and forwards as intriguing. You have now given me another rational and even more plausible way to understand predation and suffering for millions of years. I appreciate your passionate personal case (at the end of the video) for belief and how unfulfilling other views like atheism are. I will look at the night sky in future differently. What a wonderful way to re-enchant our view of the cosmos.
Fantastic stuff, made it all the way, and feel you're really on to something. Also, it brings to mind the opening of It's A Wonderful Life in which angels/saints are depicted as stars talking with one another in space. 😁
Made it to the end, of course! Great video! I appreciate so much about this, shall I list? I shall. 1. Clear explanation of how this question of the origin of natural evil arises naturally when meditating on Genesis and creation in general, and treating seriously our intuition that nature is indeed pretty bloody and brutal. 2. Clear discussion of the options on the table, and helpful situation of the different ideas in history. Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the different positions seems spot on to me! I was both affirmed in some ways and challenged in others. Just great! 3. Fascinating explication and defense of the idea angels (and demons) are so much more more integrated in our universe than our modern imagination is able to conceive. Ensouled stars considered seriously by church fathers? Mind-blowing. But you approach this in such a clear, concise, reasonable way that I find myself considering it whereas I would have blown off the idea before. Well-done!
I’ve been wrestling with this specific topic for a few years. I’ve read Dembski’s “The End of Christianity”, Plantinga’s “God, Freedom, and Evil”, and John Peckham’s “Theodicy of Love” - all of which have some good insights when it comes to this issue. Really looking forward to your treatment of this topic!
Made it! Hey, this YEC loves Tolkien, too! 😅 Unfortunately I can't answer your poll about whether this makes sense or not YET because I have to wait for you to present a video that handles the young earth side of things! 😉 Seriously, don't take too long! I'm not a stubborn YEC; I just haven't heard anything from anyone that articulated the problems with YEC well or have any biblically sound alternatives. But your style of presentation really speaks to me, even when you use big words like "theodicies" and "tangentially" 😂. And I find it all fascinating. I, too, look at the stars at night and am completely awestruck. I appreciate your passion for God and your attention to detail! Thank you!
Fascinating topic and discussion! At the end of the video my mind went to Luke 10:17-24… Thinking of the interrelatedness of the physical and spiritual, and Jesus Christ’s authority over it all. 🙌🏽
I love your comments on this subject. For me, it places context on the fall (of Adam) itself. Good work. Excited to see you expand on this research/theme.
Keep posting these videos. I'm Christian (Dutch) Reformed, so I also have a deep appreciation for what the Christian tradition has to say on these topics.
Thanks for this. I am by coincidence reading the Silmarillion right now and this just added a whole other level. I do see the problem of natural evil now more clearly. Loved hearing that old earth was actually the more conservative view until only in the last century.
Made it to the end, completely engaging all the way through! This line of thinking just makes wonder bubble up inside of me. Other resources that have gotten my wheels turning on this topic is ‘The Unseen Realm’ by Michael Heiser, The Lord of Spirits podcast by two Orthodox priests, and most recently The Haunted Cosmos podcast which I think the podcasters come from a reformed background. Like you said, I think it’s the classical Christian approach and we are need of rediscovering it!
The survey of angelic fall theodicy here helped me to elaborate on a position I've considered for a long time. I didn't realize this was a "controversial" view. I've actually held a somewhat similar view since childhood (though much less nuanced). I guess I just assumed that since God wasn't the author of evil something else had to be, and Satan and the fallen angels seemed like the best explanation.
I felt the lack of mention of the work of Dr. Heiser (made it to the end) as a huge elephant in the room. One thing he always mentioned was that all theophonies have their source in 3 events, the fall of man, the sin of the watchers, and the scattering at babylon
@ThoskaBrah Which Church Fathers? I’m not sure about your claim, but I am genuinely interested in what is true. If you could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Thank you.
Dr. OrtLund. Thank you. I got through the video. I join the many brothers and sisters to say this makes a lot of sense. Definitely opens up many good and needed questions. Shalom
Thank you for this video Dr. Ortlund. Listened to it for the second time now. My first time was quite a while ago. I see what you see when looking up at the stars at night and when reading the Silmarillion by the way. I believe the fallen angel theory is pivotal to understanding the problem of evil, that it has support in Scripture and out the nature of angels, concordance with issues presented from modern science (for those concerned about that), and brings deeper fulfillment of themes elsewhere in Scripture. For example, the theme of God’s mercy shows through the tiers of pain that higher animals experience compared to humans, their pain being less severe for lack of self consciousness. Again, God’s providence is demonstrated through the way predation can actually support the health and survival of an ecosystem. Another powerful theme from Scripture that a world with death and pain pre-fall can show is how God chooses and elevates the humble over the proud and violent. If pre-fall angelic corruption and other things like old earth and evolution are true, then God, despite predation and suffering, has created a beautiful diversity of life, chosen humans from among the many low earthly creatures to image Him, and ultimately elevated them above the angels (esp the proud fallen ones). Most of this may be true anyways without things like large scale evolution and predation caused by demons, but the strength of the themes as seen in Scripture are even more powerful with this backdrop. I just keep thinking of Joseph toward the end of Genesis telling his brothers that what they meant for evil God meant for good. This is exactly how Illuvatar responds to Melkor in the Silmarillion as well!
Makes a lot of sense. I love the ‘re-enchantment’ as you describe it. Definitely see overlap in the stars and the angels in the Bible. I’m a YEC yet puzzled with several unanswered questions lurking around about it but old earth creation leaves a bunch more about Scripture. Maybe your further thoughts about 6-day vs old earth will be in a future video. One thing I wondered is: does a ‘literal’ 6-day creation require the Fall of man to have happened on day 6 as you described here? Seems like it could’ve been later. Gavin I thank God for you and I really appreciate the work you out into these presentations. God bless and keep you in the grace and truth of Jesus Christ.
That was a question I had too. Been YEC my whole life and I've never heard anyone say it HAD to be on day 6, so that part of the video struck me as odd.
Made it through….so much to get…..well to try to get my ‘head around’. Appreciate your work and study and ability to communicate it so well. Be blessed
Very interesting Gavin! I do share the view that creation is not as it supposed to be. The problem with the theory of the fall of Lucifer causing the world's natural evil is in Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good." God calls the world as He created it very good, even natural evil existed (if we don't hold to young Earth or have another way to explain it). It's not like I have a good answer, more than somehow the world is not the way it supposed to be. Possibly the fall of man happened when the world was altogether different, and the fall caused the whole universe to change, making man into an evolutionary creature, which was not the original plan of God. So the fall of man and angels contaminated the whole universe, and natural evil and evolution came to be. I know this leaves us with other questions, like every other theory of creation does. God bless you Gavin! Btw, made it till the end. 🤗
Finished! (Well, I listened while I worked, I hope that still counts.) As a Young Earth Creationist, I found this entirely compatible and very compelling. But I'd love to hear why you shy away from YE Creationism. It seems to me happily resilient and I think it does the Scripture the most justice. Looking forward to that video! 😀 Philosophically, is 6 Billion years of suffering actually worse than 6,000? No being suffers longer than it's vaporous lifespan. No generation suffers for longer than a generation. I think the only one who is victimized or affected by a greater period of suffering is the Eternal God. Is the concept of an Old Earth really worse if no individual creature is affected by it?
I agree - I like the way Gavin wrestles honestly with these questions. I am an YEC... but realise that each side of this debate has questions that are tough to answer -- this certainly is one of them and I found this video quite compelling. I am not convinced about "theistic evolution", because I am simply not convinced that evolution (the kind required to make jumps that require injection of non-existant information) happened. The evidence -- I think -- is just not there... To say that God "injected" those shifts forward in evolution - means a miracle is needed - which is the same kind of miracle that is needed to create the earth in six days... the reality here is that the passages in Genesis that refer to the actual creation story, don't read like "myth" to me, they read just like a summary of all the things God did... If God is true - and he created the actual universes itself -- then he can create humans without a "naturalist process driven by death, destruction, sickness and decay" -- God says at each point "it was good" -- there is nothing "inherently good in naturalistic evolution" -- that to me is a terrible idea that causes cognitive dissonance.... I am troubled that Christians try to hold such opposing ideas in their minds....
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@reformedapologist You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers? "Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]" Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle. Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943This is all wrong. Continue reading the Gospel accounts. Don’t stop at one passage. Also, if you have even a passing familiarity with ancient near eastern cultures and religions, you would see that the Scripture accounts (including accounts in Enoch and Jubilees) “correct the record” on what happened during the war in heaven. I suggest you give a book called “The Religion of the Apostles” by Fr. Stephen De Young a read. It’s a good jumping off point.
Listened all the way to the end! (Which was not difficult as this was awesome!). This was really good. I'll have to read the articles you wrote. Two books I've read that are in the same sphere: Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm and John Peckham's Theodicy of Love. Thanks for your great content!
Made it to the end :) fantastic video! A ton of thought provoking stuff in there and it connected a lot of dots for me to have it laid out so clearly. I first became consciously aware of this topic after reading The Silmarillion for the first time so your comments at the end about Tolkien made me chuckle. You’ve ignited a fire to read Augustine and some of the other theological sources on this. Really appreciate this video and the work you put into making it!
Fantastic video Gavin, thanks! Really thought-provoking and it seems plausible as it fits with what we do know and helps explain what we don't. A whole lot of mystery in it but also a really attractive kind of wonder and enchantment like you say.
Hey Gavin, thanks for making this. The whole thing was awesome. I got turned on to this idea from Tim Mackie and the Bible project. They made some compelling arguments from Genesis 1:14-18 equating angels with the stars. I too have found it to be a very helpful worldview (and I also love Tolkien, so go figure)
Made it all the way to the end! Over the last 5 years or so I’ve had this sense that the Universe that God created is much more mysterious that I think and could possibly comprehend. This video spoke into that and so much more, thank you! And thank you for bringing the incredible minds of our Christian heritage that weighed in on this subject and for your own realisations and study and commentary! I think this may be my favorite video I’ve heard on the topic thus far.
I was able to make it through the whole video and found this very enlightening. Not sure how I feel about every point, but I understand your thought for the enchantment of the universe. I actually read The Silmarillion and The Philosophy of Tolkien by Peter Kreeft last fall and your explanations really helped bring some clarity into Tolkien's worldview for me. I personally do have a hard time with speculations in these areas, but there has been something about the Patristic and Medieval Theologians and even the likes of pre-modern men in modern times like Chesterton, Tolkien, and Lewis that has become so fascinating to me in the last year. Reading your book Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals as a required text for my Systematic Theology I class at Southern Baptist Theology Seminary was a huge blessing for me because it really opened these doors of classical theology for me. It seems like the Millennials and Generation-Zers entering into theology are really picking up on some ideas that have been abandoned for quite some time. What do you think of all of that? Appreciate any response you can give.
I guess as a personal testimony of my 28 years of life, I have noticed that a lot of people around my age that grew up in evangelical churches walked out from church in general after high school, and now many people are coming back after a lifetime of starving for meaning. Makes me think my generation of parents needs to do a much better job of understanding what we believe, why we believe it, then instructing our own children in sound doctrine. Do you find that older generations in and outside of your church (such as boomers and gen-Xers) are much less receptive and/or open to theological ideas such as this and other classical Patristic and Medieval doctrines?
If you really find energy and time for 1 more simple question, I also was curious how you find time to engage apologetics and theology while also fulfilling pastoral ministry. It seems like most people I know end up focusing on one or the other. Do you just schedule very specific time to do studies outside of time with pastoral obligations, and then family/practical responsibilities? I am more or less just curious since I work full-time, serve in church, have a family, and want to make the most of time to study. I guess just answer that however you best see fit lol. Could be a typical daily routine or however you want to approach it. Thank you Gavin. Appreciate what you're doing!
Very compelling. Yes, I got to the end. I think it couldn't be more clear in scripture that the spiritual directly effects the physical, and even the end state of creation is for the spiritual and physical to be manifested and united as one.
I love finding your comments throughout Christian RUclips lol. Last I saw you was in the Ten Minute Bible Hour comment section.
As a veterinarian, and a pastor, I have thought about animal death/pain for years. It’s been hard to have an exact explanation, and I’ve dwelled on a mixture of developmentalism + fallenness (as you’ve called them) but I think this adds an immensely valuable element!
Excited for more, Thank you Gavin!
God made it so....the dietary laws given by Moses to the Israelites, 3000 years ago!
Herbivores that obtain their food by grazing or browsing on grasses and other plants. These are the animals which you may eat among all the beasts’ that are on the earth... whatever divides the hoof having cloven hooves and chewing the cud.
These animals have four-chambered stomachs that convert grasses that are inedible to humans and other animals into nutritious, high-quality protein products (meat and milk) that people can then use for food.
The dietary laws prohibit the consumption of all carnivorous animals and omnivorous animals for very logical reasons.
God created clean animals to provide food and by-products for human use. He created animals unsuitable for human consumption for other purposes. Carnivores, as beasts of prey, play an important role in controlling the populations of other animals. As an example, wolves and mountain lions, which feed on herds of deer, control not only numbers but also help maintain the health of the herd by culling out older, sick or infirm animals.
Biblically "clean fish" are generally free swimming in bodies of water. Most "unclean" fish are either bottom dwellers or predatory scavengers. Shellfish, lacking both fins and scales, are clearly excluded by the biblical dietary laws.. They are "bottom walkers" and "predatory scavengers" Crabs are referred to as "professional garbage hunters" and as "scavengers" that eat almost anything.
These organisms were all created for a very important ecological purpose. They are, in essence, the "garbage collectors" or the "cleanup crew" for the bottoms of lakes, rivers, beaches, bays and oceans. They were not intended to be food for human beings.
The biblical dietary laws are simple, rational, practical and profound. Long before human beings knew the details of disease-causing microorganisms, life cycles of parasites or global ecology, God revealed powerful principles that would provide safe, healthful food and prevent the spread of disease for anyone who would be willing to follow these instructions.
Unclean animals that were physically unhealthy to eat in the days of Moses are just as unhealthy today.
@@jamesrey3221 Dude, the whole dietary laws were about how God determines what is clean and unclean. It was never about food but to remind Jews that there is such thing as "clean" and "unclean" and it's God who has the authority and not man.
@@jamesrey3221 That in no way answers the qustion.
Gavin: My weirdest theological view
Me: Looks like I have a new theological view
Made it to the end. Wonderful, and enchanting video! Love you Gavin!
Thanks Gavin. You're content is like a breath of fresh air.
Common misconception: "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 This is retconning the category of “Jew”. To believe this is to deny that the Jews who wrote the Book of Jubilees, 1 Enoch, etc (ie the 2nd Temple Texts that Rabbinical Judaism later declared heretical) were not really “Jews”
The idea of angelic rebellion - a Rabbinical Jewish friend of mine calls it ‘Enochian’ as in 1 Enoch (not to be confused with the occult term from 16th Century England) - is at least as old as the Essenes / Dead Sea Scrolls
And hey, not my business to try and assert myself into the middle of an argument about who was really “Jewish”, but at minimum the idea that [this all was just some Greek/occult influence or syncretism] is quite simply false
Made it all the way to the end 🙌🏽.
"I'd rather just believe and be duped. I'd rather believe in God and believe in angels and be duped than not believe. Because I've stared down the other direction and not only do I think it's less plausible, but it's just such a barren worldview...a Christian imagination allows you to look up at the stars at night and it couldn't be more enchanting. What you're looking at is beauty and wonder, and there is something behind it all." Love it 🙌🏽🔥
Interesting thoughts. Been writing on a small book on this and divine hiddenness for last 10 months. We need to get vocal on these topics to minimize the amount who jump on shallow slogans and memes to them as a serious response.
I made it all the way to the end :) I first started to feel the re-enchantment of the spiritual world when I read Heiser’s “The Unseen Realm”, and continued as I recently read “Out of the Silent Planet” and “Perelandra” for the first time (That Hideous Strength is next on my list!). I think Heiser’s views segue nicely with the theodicy presented here, but it’s a tough sell for many modern Christians. As a long-time old earth creationist myself, the problem of natural evil has always been my most difficult challenge, so thanks for the video and giving me some more categories to connect different parts of theology together.
I was thinking of Heiser and adjacent theologians while watching this, too. I have had a similar experience as you with "re-enchantment" and getting to relearn these old ideas. I think this video is very helpful in making ideas like Heiser's more palatable because something like theodicy and natural evil is something that is much more relevant to most people today, as opposed to (for example) whether or not the nephilim were actual giants.
Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you very much for making this video. With every video you make, I feel like I have another puzzle piece to help build my unified worldview as a Christian.
I've recently been so discouraged and angered by seeing self-identifying Christians online and around me characterized by so much hate, ignorance, and general distain for seeking truth outside their bubles of familiarity. I can't even talk about Christian theology with fellow Christians because many of them are so stubbornly and bitterly set in their views regardless of what scripture, the historic Church, or the natural world teaches us.
Seeing your work and your own character represent a body of Christians who can be lovers of knowledge, reason, history, and above all; peace and charity, has been incredibly helpful to me. Please continue producing these videos, and God bless.
You *have* to leave fundamentalist circles if you want to grow. They're ossified. Join an Apostolic Church or one of the non-progressive Mainlines.
Made it through! That’s saying something coming from a guy with two boys, aged 6 and 3.
I’ve been cautiously walking down this path for a couple years now.
Michael Heiser really opened up a new world for me and I feel this just adds layers to those thoughts. Loved the work you’ve done bridging the early church fathers with Tolkien and Lewis. Great stuff Gavin. Thank you.
Made it to the end! I'm a young earth creationist and I still think you are awesome! And no, this is not a crazy idea. Like you pointed out. Even those of us in the YEC camp still have to address things like the serpent in the garden being evil before the fall of man. Also where did Adam's evil desire come from before his fall? How can a perfect being even consider sinning much less choose to actually sin? This has led me to make a distinction between the ideas that Adam was perfect at his creation as apposed to just being merely sinless at his creation. He was capable of sin and in that sense he was not perfect like YHWH is perfect Who cannot sin. Very interesting video.
Mate, I think your questions re. the YEC have reasonable answers.
@@anthonywhitney634 I do too. I was thinking about offering a friendly critique of what Gavin said about YEC but I thought maybe I would wait for his video about YEC first.
Here’s another question. Who temped Lucifer to become prideful? If sin cannot be in the presence of God and Lucifer was created to worship and serve God, then where did the temptation to sin (Lucifer wanting to be worshipped or do his own will) come from?
@@MichaelBravine1
Why do you assume Lucifer had to be tempted
Maybe he was created with free will, actual autonomy in decision making.
What if Gods sovereignty is far greater than our finite brains could even entertain.
🤔
@@MichaelBravine1I think we will have the capacity to sin in heaven but always choose not to as all your needs will be met. We will have no reason to ever rebel. We understand the consequences of sin and desire God's holiness.
Adam and Eve had not yet learned the complete reason to not sin before the fall of man I believe.
Thanks Gavin. You don't scare us young-earth (leaning) creationists away - at least not all of us. This is a new concept for me, but seems accessible to the young-earth view, and I am interested to learn more about it.
Looking forward to hearing your engagement with Augustine's doctrine of creation and young/old earth creationism!
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 So in Ezekiel 28 the king of Tyre is being compared to a non-existent/imaginary angelic rebel?
Thanks for your work. I love listening to your videos! I'm a retired missionary. I ministered for 14 years in 2 countries where most Christians are Orthodox (Egypt and Russia). I've been curious how many of the Catholic and Orthodoxy believes came about, which your videos give great insight into.
I made it to the end!! This is one of your most exciting videos yet. Gavin, thanks for sharing your devotion to God by edifying us! Usually I feel too intimidated by your vast knowledge of church history to bother trying to dialogue, but this was super relatable. To look up at the stars and at the beauty of nature is something that God gifted us to make His existence apparent on earth. Acknowledging and engaging these kinds of mysteries really does bring enchantment into one's soul - it's the best way to feel like a kid full of wonder all over again! And didn't Jesus say to be like the little children is what we ought to aim for in some way? To love fellowship with each other in the way of discussing God's amazing and mysterious creations and providence will never get us to the final answer but it's endless fun (definitely the opposite of a barren perspective) and these puzzles are one of the many things to look forward to - I personally can't wait to know all the answers to these paradoxical riddles once we are with God! ❤😊 Thank you again for this video!
Watching this again, As a YEC I see ultimately the natural evil problem needs more of an explanation then just no sin or evil before the fall. There is still 7500 years of natural destruction that’s lead to the death of millions. The angelic theodicy described is actually pretty awesome! It makes a lot of sense
Watch the whole thing! I recently read Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and he spoke on similar ideas. It was really interesting and gave interesting perspective on the effect of the angels' fall. He explained it a bit differently but they both share a similar premise. He didn't really use early church historians as reference so it's cool to see what the early Christians may have believed. Granted his focus wasn't on the corrupting of nature but this is such a facinating topic that I always have a hard time articulating. These are definitely things that have come up in my mind in passing so thanks for another cool video and giving all the references!
Heiser has always said he was not coming up with anything new
“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God?” This video reminded me of this Emerson quote. Thanks for your work, this one was very illuminating :)
Not weird! It’s certainly interesting. My mind is trying to make sense of how it’s possible for Satan to be “the ruler of this world” (John12:31, 14:30, 16:11) and yet at the same time Christ has “All authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18).
Made it to the end. I’ve recently wrestled with this problem. As I considered the interaction of the creation in Genesis with evolutionary discoveries and felt intuitively that this was a possibility. Glad to see there is orthodox historical and intellectual precedent for it.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943you should maybe read the gospel completely and not just the cherry picked bits and pieces that fit your heretical worldview.
What an amazing video. Just finished it, and I couldn't be more impressed. What a beautiful theology, and a beautiful ending. Thank you so much for everything you do.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943, stop quoting Jesus in a misleading way! You will be called to account in the way you represent him. When Jesus instructed his disciples not to preach to the Gentiles, that was in a specific context. Matthew 10 is called the limited commission. After Jesus death and resurrection, he sent his disciples out into all nations, to the gentiles as well as the Jews. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” - Matthew 28.
@@aldencole6714
"In a misleading way " a bit ironic.
Also representing him? I'm just showing the quote that says preach to gentiles or samaritans. So for your argument you believe he changed his mind after the crucifixion ?
@@happymate8943 Jesus' mission was to the Jew first, then to the Greek, as Paul says speaking in the Spirit in Romans 1:16 and as is obvious throughout the entire NT and OT. Read through the Bible and you will see it! Look at Jesus' talking about his role as Shepherd in Jn 10:16, or the Revelation given to Peter in Acts 11. Once the gospel of Jesus' Lordship was spread to the Jews, it was then spread to the gentiles.
@@aldencole6714
You realize paul never met or followed jesus during his time alive? Also saying a "spirit" of him going to paul, who never met jesus and persecuted his followers, in order tell to convert gentiles sounds unbelievable.
Also peter argued with paul over somthing like that as well.
Hi Dr. Ortlund, thank you so much for making this video. For me it was very timely and I thought you made a very good case. I've read the silmarillion and Tolkien's essay on the importance of myths, and I've picked up some of these ideas from him. I agree with you and your brother in that video where you guys discussed theology a few years back that there is something in paganism that is compelling and I see this as an idea that not only helps with the problem of evil in the natural world but also harmonizes the feeling of wonder in the world as you described with the Christian worldview.
You're also entirely correct that the modern worldviews, including the Christian ones, often seem to miss out on this to a great extent. As an engineer, I've often attributed that to the mechanical way we almost always view the world now. Dispassionate laws govern everything rather than personal forces the way people used to see things. Obviously that's helped make progress technologically but has also promoted feelings of meaninglessness as we view reality. Even Satan and angelic forces and maybe even the holy spirit are seen as those same sort of impersonal forces. I started reading paradise lost recently and Milton's analysis of Satan and his reasoning were mind blowing to me. I think if we were to recover a view that recognized both the spiritual component to reality and the personal level that the spiritual reality exists in we would be better off. Of course I should offer the disclaimer that I don't think it's healthy to believe every little thing is demonic or whatnot, only that as you said it would help restore a sense of wonder and I think it would help us to take certain things more seriously, praying as we should for example.
Anyway thanks again for making this video, I thought it was great and would love more content around this topic!
Cool comment. I enjoyed reading it.
Wow. An engineer who gets it! Colour me surprised! 😉
Made it to the end. This is not crazy and can be found in the Scriptures.
Speaking of the unseen realm without mentionning Michael S Heiser is a crime (that was is life's work). I highly suggest to everyone who is interested in this topic to go read Unseen Realm by Michael S Heiser (or Supernatural, the less academic version).
All of this is found in the Bible ; no speculation needed.
God bless.
Hi, Gavin. First of all, thank you for yet another amazing video. I've been watching your videos on this whole topic of the origins for some days now, and I'm amazed not only with the clarity and depth of your argumentation, but mainly with the carefulness with which you deal with this sensitive topic and the grace with which you treat the ones that possibly disagree with you on that. It's been very humbling to watch the way you "speak the truth in love".
Also, I couldn't help but notice how you held back your tears at the end when talking about the re-enchantment of the world. I am greatly thankful to God for putting in my way examples of how one can be intelectually rigourous and deep and, at the same time, passionate for the wonderful works of God. It's been a gush of fresh air to meet reasonable, faithful and wise brothers in such times as the one we're living on. I would very much like to meet you one day and give you hug, if I'm allowed to, for the encouragement I've been receiving, as an academic christian, from your videos. Thank you very much, and God bless your work and your ministry.
thanks so much for the kind words!
Dr. Ortlund outstanding! Because of our “advanced” technology, we often consider the pre-modern man to be ignorant in all things and that is where we are sadly mistaken. We need to rely and trust in the wisdom and inspiration of the great thinkers and fathers of the church. In many ways they saw the nature of the creation much clearer than modern man.
Thank you. I watched the whole video. Only my second video of you I’ve seen. Subbed. 😊
TBH, I’m not a Christian, but I very much want to be. I really want the Bible to be true, but I can’t simply make myself believe. I’ve tried. I’ve visited many churches and had long conversations with many pastors over the last few years.
So, I consider myself an agnostic now, but can’t fully believe in atheism or strict naturalism either. I’m kind of in a limbo state now following a Buddhist path. Yet, I find the lack of a meaningful theology in Buddhism unsatisfying.
I’m a conservative and reject many of the secular degeneracies I see around me in the modern world. I believe in objective morality. Yet, despite all of my seeking, I have yet to find God.
I keep looking for God, but this issue of natural evil is one of the two biggest hurdles against believing in God as presented in the Bible. (The other big hurdle for me is the topic of divine hiddenness, btw.)
I need to marinate in your ideas more, but I very much appreciate the food for thought!
As a normal person (and not a philosopher per se), I don’t know all of the history or people or works you mentioned. I was happy to learn about some new viewpoints that seem to align with my own intuitions, such as that this earthly life is a kind of training camp for the afterlife. I think suffering is absolutely necessary for the development of our souls and our morality.
I even had an instant epiphany (which I quickly rejected - but still could make for an interesting fiction book) when you noted that demons are incarcerated in the earth. I wondered… what if we are actually all demons ourselves and our lives are attempts to learn from suffering and redeem ourselves so we can one day re-enter God’s heavenly kingdom?!? But then I quickly realized that the Bible clearly delineates a difference between humans and demons (or angels). While it was an interesting thought, I don’t think there is any solid theological basis to believe that our souls are actually fallen angels. As I said though, maybe it could make for a good fiction book!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and so glad to be connected to you!
Something that helped me in my belief in Christianity was looking into the ressurection, the historical facts behind the empty tomb and accounts, the transformation in the view of James the skeptic brother of Jesus, the willingness of all the disciples to die without renouncing belief in Jesus's ressurection and the fact that based upon the Jewish beliefs at the time to come up with or hallucinate the ressurection wouldn't happen as individual ressurection was never thought of and ascension like Elijahs would be a more natural idea.
I made it to the end. I definitely think this way of thinking about angles makes a lot of sense and adds something very important to the Christian worldview. Thanks Gavin!
Common misconception: "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
Made it through. I think I'm about to combine Angel Fall theodicy with Young Earth Creationism. I think YEC is just the natural way to read genesis. Romans 5 also suggests that death came with the sin of man, and not billions and billions of years before any human being ever walked the face of the earth.
Can we do that? Can we combine the 2? 😁 I hope so, because I'm also YEC but this theory makes a lot of sense to me. I hope he does another video on it soon.
@@prophet32us How do you explain earth already existing in the beginning of Genesis?
@@justchilling704 I'm not sure if I correctly understand the wording of your question, but the view I've been taught, or the way I understand it at least, is that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", i.e. basically the elements and the waters and some sort of core of the 🌎 that was maybe covered in water. But no animals or visible dry land yet, and it was "formless and void" until after God did the separating of the waters and brought forth dry land. I know some YEC say that verse 1 is a catch-all summary of the verses that follow, but I guess I don't believe that.
@@prophet32us Okay I was just curious and you did capture my point. Now that I think of it the way I worded my reply may have come across like I don’t think the universe had a beginning or something which biblically is absurd. I think God created the earth in that void or formless state first.
Yeah, cool. Thanks for asking. Really. I am trying to learn more about the old earth creationist point of view and all this stuff fascinates me, anyway. It's fun and rather awe-inspiring to consider.
Thank you for this video, Gavin! I think this is a superb representation of the traditional Christian imagination on the subject. We all of us have been deracinated of our Christian ethos with the scientific revolution and enlightenment. What I loved about this video is that it seems to have pointed a way forward, so that both the truth of science and the truth of the supernatural can dovetail into one whole reality.
P. S. Made it to the end.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943 while Jesus was announcing the kingdom of God in Galilee and Judea, he primarily focused on a Jewish audience, all the while including gentiles whom the Father had prepared to receive healing and salvation. After his resurrection, Christ threw open the kingdom of God for the whole world (see Matthew 28).
There is no misconception as to the term ha satan (the accuser). While the term does not connote a proper noun in the sense of a name, there is no doubt that Jesus used the idea of Satan or the devil to refer to the ruler of this age who has been a liar from the beginning (John 8:44).
With regard to your notion of a war I Heaven being a pagan importation, I find this highly dubious and unconvincing. In the Apocalypse of John there is a war in heaven. In Genesis 6 there is a rebellion of angelic beings. And before all of that, there was a primordial enemy in serpent form in the Garden of God, temping humans away from fealty to the LORD.
I love these conversations and I feel like some of the considerations that seem the most bizarre on their immediate face, upon further thought, end up being the most logical and almost undeniable to be true. There is no denying that the spiritual realm is so much more intimately entwined with our material realm than we realize.
I have been journeying through Michael Heiser's work in recent years and seeing all of creation with fresh eyes. I'm grateful to have come across your channel and it has been so edifying and enriching. Thank you Gavin!
Made it to the end. This idea helped me yrs ago to let go of my YE Creationism. So glad to hear that it has a heritage. I must say, you have inspired me to imagine further.
I still have some questions and hangups, but this explanation seems at least as plausible as any other to my mind.
I will also say, I am very intrigued with the notion that angels (and demons) are behind the material world we experience and were assigned roles in sustaining, governing, and possibly manipulating, different facets of the physical world. Truly fascinating! However, I am still uncomfortable with the idea, on biblical grounds, that angels contributed somehow to creation itself.
Thank you, Gavin. This is one of the best discussions about this issue (long troubling to me) I’ve encountered. I, too, believe the world is enchanted, shot through with Grace. We often fail to See what’s Real. Thank you for this. I’m so impressed with your work. As a very nearly Catholic (raised Presbyterian), and trained in philosophy and a 40 year student of theology, I appreciate you.
Man this is *such* a good video. Thank you for all of the work you've put in doing the research and writing it up in an accessible way. It's very impressive and I'm grateful that we live in this crazy RUclips world where I can benefit from it so easily. Thank you!
I’m a Catholic that enjoys watching your video despite disagreeing with you on a lot of stuff! But I must say that this is pretty much exactly what my view is and I don’t think it’s a strange theological opinion at all! Thanks for the video!
I believe you are exactly right. I was not taught this way I was not led to believe this in any way at all I have just always felt that everything you said is the truth. God bless you 🙏
I agree with your dad - you are the real deal Gavin. Thankful for all that you do to help the truth unite us. God bless you.
Hi Gavin - I did indeed make it through to the end. I deeply appreciate the winsome way you present how you're thinking about a given topic. I hadn't ever heard of an angelic fall theodicy and to be honest, I'd always assumed that it had to be a given that there could be no ecosystems as we know them before the fall of man for the same kinds of reasons as Ken Ham articulates. After listening to you engage with some of his claims and being recommended this video by the algorithm, I'm so intrigued by the idea of "puncturing the despair" and that "thinking about angels re-enchants the world." I would love to see our Christian intellectual tradition recapture grandeur as a defining feature. It would be great if skeptics could look at us and say, "Well, I hate their conclusions, but at least they're not boring."
Made it through brother. Like a lot of the other comments I too find Heiser's perspective a very compelling one and this idea is very happy in that world view. This vid. was a timely one for me, really helped me get past some things I've been wrestling with so thanks for that!
Made it to the end. The universe is enchanting and most probably enchanted! Thanks for your work!
On the same page of believing the wonder as the half has never yet been told! You made an impact with this treatise 😊
Gavin, this is crazy - I was just thinking about a hypothesis like this as I've made the transition to an old earth creationist view. This feels very divinely inspired, and a sign from the Spirit's voice. Can't wait to watch!
Made it all the way to the end. This makes Out of the Silent Planet make so much more sense to me! I love the idea that we're re-enchanting the modern world! 🥰😭
Finished the video! I’ve been wrestling with this topic for awhile. This video came right in time. Thank you Gavin, not just for possible answers/hypothesis’s, but for the comfort of having like-minded brothers and sisters. As for the validity of the hypothesis I believe it holds some weight. Perhaps that’s because of my bias though. I am huge a fan of Dr. Heiser’s work (rest in peace) so I’m more apt to entertaining angelic/demonic/supernatural explanations to the world.
made it till the end. Great content.
To me the angelic fall theodicy seems quite and intuitive reading of scripture.
I made it to the end and my goodness, I am a Christian for more than a decade now, have read numerous systematic theologies and philosophical/scientific theology yet this one just amazed me like a child just starting to learn.
I watched every second of this from beginning to end and I almost cried at your closing point saying that there is something more out there-because there DEFINITELY is. Psalm 8 captures this perfectly and the enchantment of the human soul never ceases, it may just be lost or blinded-which both need redirection/restoration from God Himself.
This theodicy that you elaborated is incredibly feasible, Dr. Ortlund. I hope you would make more videos about this concerning its finer points. Thank you so much and God bless you.
Soli Deo gloria!
I made it all the way through to the end! This is a very interesting topic, as you explained and unpacked things I had a lot of teachings of the late Dr. Michael Heiser in my head I believe that a lot of what he's taught pairs well with this idea.
I finished this! Thank you for opening my aperture a bit. The more I get into Lewis, the more I realize how saturated he was in ancient Christianity. I do have one question for clarification… if fallen angels were subverting the world during the very process of creation, how can it be said that it was good before the fall?
Excellent video and review of the problem of evil that is not often discussed. Will need to watch this video again to understand all the nuance.
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
It makes total sense. As a pastor, studying to be an apologist, and an ardent Lewis and Tolkien admirer, I feel that this concept makes the most sense. Great content!
Thanks for sharing this subject with us. I previously learned about the relationship of angels to stars but I hadn’t considered this idea in relation to the problem of evil.
And I always watch your videos to the end. 🙂
I just finished The Silmarillion a few months ago and am still trying to figure out how all this stuff fits together (Hugh Ross’s Old Earth Creationism seems to fall under developmentalism to me but I still don’t know how to make sense of how the fall of some angels could cause something like the second law of thermodynamics). 🤷🏽♂️ Thank you for the video and the taxonomy. That helps provide a grid for some of my thinking on this.
Made it all the way to the end! 1.5x speed of course... Thank you for this video Gavin - this is something I've been passionate about for years now, the re-enchantment of our modern world. Lewis broke me of my modernism, and That Hideous Strength is (in my view) the greatest novel of the 20th century. These kind of questions are vitally important to answer modern ways of thinking, especially because materialism and naturalism have made their way into the imagination of much of the Church. Ever since you mentioned this topic on Pints with Aquinas I've been mulling it over more, and you made a video just when I wished you would. Thanks for the thorough and fascinating watch!
Gavin, I loved the video! Thanks for the time you put into it. I just discovered you a few days ago and have been flying through your content. Your videos have been particularly helpful since I had been open to (and leaning towards )an “Old Earth” view, but came across answers in Genesis, and ran into the problem of death and disease before Adam and Eve’s fall. I looked for other possible answers to that question and asked people I know and no one had an answer, so I went back to the “Young Earth” camp, but still felt uneasy about ignoring all of the science, which I enjoy. I am excited to read your book and get more details! But I am glad to know that it is certainly more complex than I knew and that there are godly people who believe in the authority of scripture with different views on the subject. Also, it was great to hear all of the church fathers who didn’t hold the six literal days view. That was a hard pill for me to swallow thinking that every Christian before Darwin held that view, but it was great to see so many examples of the opposite!
One last note, I have been so encouraged by you, Dane, and Eric in very different but also very personal and powerful ways, which is interesting to me. I actually found you by looking for more videos from Eric and saw your video about your favorite literature, which was fun! And I found him because of Dane. Thanks again!
thanks a lot, great to be connected!
Gavin, made it all the way to the end and enjoyed every second! I am a recent graduate from seminary with a philosophy and apologetics concentration and am familiar with most of the philosophers you mentioned. I think the fallen angel theodocy is brilliant and enchanting. I had a professor at seminary mention this idea but he quickly dismissed it without giving it due attention and weight. You did a fantastic job. I struggle with the problem of pre-fall animal suffering as well, and I think your explanation is coherent and convincing…also, shameless Tolkien lover here! Haha
Finished the video. Thought it was good. The issue of natural evil before man’s fall has always kept me a YEC. This was an interesting perspective
I watched all the way to the end. This is a thought-provoking idea that's going to be bouncing around in my head for a while, so thank you for putting it out there.
Also, regarding the idea that God made the world in an imperfect way in preparation for the Fall, this is consistent with St. Paul's comment in Romans about God subjecting the creation to futility (assuming you take that passage to refer to all of physical creation and not just humanity).
Dear Dr Ortlund, Once again so helpful!! I hardly have the words to express how much you have encouraged me through your videos. I have been a Christian for many years, and I desire to stay the course. I have listened numerous times to the video you posted about the struggles of faith that confront some of us. (deconstruction) I'm so grateful for your honesty! I have attended the same protestant church for many years and the few people I knew who had the ability to listen to my questions have left. I get the pat answers which ultimately do not help and then I conclude it's my duty to grit my teeth and just hang on till death. I never want to leave Jesus, constantly I recall the words of Peter “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" I love that you advised strugglers to find the right sort of Christian person who can help encouragingly. I understand biblically it is important to be in the body, in community. But when I encounter troubling issues it's tempting to withdraw. I also enjoyed your book "Humility" and the beautiful message you preach on Psalm 88. I could go on, but it's getting lengthy as it is. Just saying thanks! 💖
“Lord, to whom shall we go? Amen
Where is his message on psalm 88?
@curiousgeorge555 playlist: devotional, title is 'a sermon for sufferers'
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@warrenjs
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
This is NOT WEIRD at all! I am so grateful to you for exploring this topic in a longer format, and dedicating so much of your time and effort to this extremely important topic!
As a fan of both Lewis’ and Tolkein’s works - this offered a brilliant approach to helping explain how the angelic fall theodicy and natural evil are connected!
I enjoyed this immensely, and will be sharing this video and your channel with friends who share and appreciate your approach to so many interesting topics!
Many Blessings to you and your family!🇨🇦❤🇺🇸
Great video, Gavin, some interesting things to consider. I rarely think about the existence of angels, now I'm thinking of them everywhere. The last 2 minutes of this video got me choked up. Thanks for helping us think brother, I appreciate the intention you put into your videos.
I was walking at night listening to this and what you said at the end was magical while I looked up at the stars
(Edit: made it to the end!)
Gavin, I think you would have loved engaging with Michael Heiser. Both of you as scholars have combined creative, imaginative thought with deep theology and historical/textual data. After I read The Unseen Realm and his other books, the Bible became even more a source of delight and appreciation for me. I also, at age 73, have been reading Tolkien and Lewis for over 60 years. I think I should add your colleague’s book on Tolkien theology to my collection.
I find this completely plausible and well supported in OT, NT and intertestamental Jewish literature.
It dovetails beautifully with Dr. Michael Heiser’s work and, for me, has reconciled difficult scriptural references and illuminated the overarching Divine narrative that I have longed for for years.
Wow, i never knew about this concept. When you parallel it with Enoch and the role of Watchers and their different heavenly charges/responsibilities, it brings natural evil into a whole other light. Awesome, brother. Ty
This is an incredible concept! Plato even gets at this. In Timaeus there's a passage where he talks about God creating the gods and tasking them with the formation of the world and the governance of humanity. You could argue he sees the Greek pantheon as angels (maybe demons is more accurate in keeping with patristic thought). Thanks for sharing this! I'll be chewing on it for a while.
This was spectacular, I did watch to the end! This is the explanation I've needed to understand how animal suffering can exist before the *human* fall. This will give me much to ponder.
Made it to the end. Dr. Orlund, this idea is fantastic because it works best with scientific evidence and an orthodox hermeneutic. This video makes me what to write/research this topic myself. Thank you!
Made it all the way through! I've sometimes wondered if the general cynicism that is getting so common is at least partially due to light pollution blocking out a lot of the night sky (blocking out creation like that just isn't very conducive to giving a sense of wonder) so the idea that angels and stars could literally have something to do with each other is very interesting to me. As for whether angelic fall theodicy is crazy, it might be but that doesn't make it untrue, lol. Thanks for the video!
Made it all the way through! To be honest this is the first time I think about this. So this is my first approach to this issue. I always asked myself If before the man's fall the 2nd law of thermodynamics did not exist, which was weird in accordance to the previous natural history before man was created.
Thank you for your insights
Finished the whole vid (as always)! Well, I think the idea makes sense. I'm a huge Tolkien fan and an Old Earth Creationist, so maybe I have no choice :) I really enjoyed your discussion in this video!
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
Made it to the end. You posted this at a good time, as some friends and I were having a discussion on this just earlier this week.
I'm a newer Christian. Only been following Jesus for a bit over a year, and so I've spent a lot of time trying to learn and make up for lost time. I was talking with a friend who is an old-earth creationist a couple weeks ago, and I'd say I'm more so a theistic evolutionist. He asked me my thoughts on the fall of nature and how I reconciled that with evolution. It's led me to ponder that question quite a bit since he asked. Another friend held a similar view to yours, and we spent some time at church discussing this last Sunday. This video was quite helpful in providing some more depth to that worldview.
I've watched quite a lot of your content throughout my journey, so I thank you for all you do. All the best.
Loved the video, Gavin! And yes, I made it to the end haha. If you wanted to keep the conversation going, a great guest to have on would be Dr. James Dolezal. James is excellent Baptist scholar, and has some great things to say about Angels, and many other topics. Thanks for all you do!
This was another great video, Gavin. And yes, I watched and was fascinated all the way to the end.
I too have wrestled with aspects of the question you address of evil prior to the fall. For many of the same reasons you mentioned (Biblical, theological, scientific), a young earth explanation is unsatisfying. I had found William Dembski's idea of the fall having an effect both backwards and forwards as intriguing. You have now given me another rational and even more plausible way to understand predation and suffering for millions of years.
I appreciate your passionate personal case (at the end of the video) for belief and how unfulfilling other views like atheism are.
I will look at the night sky in future differently. What a wonderful way to re-enchant our view of the cosmos.
Fantastic stuff, made it all the way, and feel you're really on to something. Also, it brings to mind the opening of It's A Wonderful Life in which angels/saints are depicted as stars talking with one another in space. 😁
ha, totally forgot that scene!
Made it to the end, of course! Great video! I appreciate so much about this, shall I list? I shall.
1. Clear explanation of how this question of the origin of natural evil arises naturally when meditating on Genesis and creation in general, and treating seriously our intuition that nature is indeed pretty bloody and brutal.
2. Clear discussion of the options on the table, and helpful situation of the different ideas in history. Your analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the different positions seems spot on to me! I was both affirmed in some ways and challenged in others. Just great!
3. Fascinating explication and defense of the idea angels (and demons) are so much more more integrated in our universe than our modern imagination is able to conceive. Ensouled stars considered seriously by church fathers? Mind-blowing. But you approach this in such a clear, concise, reasonable way that I find myself considering it whereas I would have blown off the idea before. Well-done!
I’ve been wrestling with this specific topic for a few years. I’ve read Dembski’s “The End of Christianity”, Plantinga’s “God, Freedom, and Evil”, and John Peckham’s “Theodicy of Love” - all of which have some good insights when it comes to this issue. Really looking forward to your treatment of this topic!
What a beautiful way to reinvigorate our wonder at the world around us.
Made it! Hey, this YEC loves Tolkien, too! 😅 Unfortunately I can't answer your poll about whether this makes sense or not YET because I have to wait for you to present a video that handles the young earth side of things! 😉 Seriously, don't take too long! I'm not a stubborn YEC; I just haven't heard anything from anyone that articulated the problems with YEC well or have any biblically sound alternatives. But your style of presentation really speaks to me, even when you use big words like "theodicies" and "tangentially" 😂. And I find it all fascinating. I, too, look at the stars at night and am completely awestruck. I appreciate your passion for God and your attention to detail! Thank you!
Fascinating topic and discussion! At the end of the video my mind went to Luke 10:17-24… Thinking of the interrelatedness of the physical and spiritual, and Jesus Christ’s authority over it all. 🙌🏽
I love your comments on this subject. For me, it places context on the fall (of Adam) itself. Good work. Excited to see you expand on this research/theme.
Keep posting these videos. I'm Christian (Dutch) Reformed, so I also have a deep appreciation for what the Christian tradition has to say on these topics.
Thanks for this. I am by coincidence reading the Silmarillion right now and this just added a whole other level. I do see the problem of natural evil now more clearly. Loved hearing that old earth was actually the more conservative view until only in the last century.
What a fantastic video. Dr. Ortlund really does a fantastic job of engaging this subject matter
Made it to the end, completely engaging all the way through! This line of thinking just makes wonder bubble up inside of me. Other resources that have gotten my wheels turning on this topic is ‘The Unseen Realm’ by Michael Heiser, The Lord of Spirits podcast by two Orthodox priests, and most recently The Haunted Cosmos podcast which I think the podcasters come from a reformed background. Like you said, I think it’s the classical Christian approach and we are need of rediscovering it!
The survey of angelic fall theodicy here helped me to elaborate on a position I've considered for a long time. I didn't realize this was a "controversial" view. I've actually held a somewhat similar view since childhood (though much less nuanced). I guess I just assumed that since God wasn't the author of evil something else had to be, and Satan and the fallen angels seemed like the best explanation.
I felt the lack of mention of the work of Dr. Heiser (made it to the end) as a huge elephant in the room. One thing he always mentioned was that all theophonies have their source in 3 events, the fall of man, the sin of the watchers, and the scattering at babylon
Love Heiser’s work. It added a new facet into my interpretation of scripture. Sad that he lost his fight with cancer not long ago…
@ThoskaBrahWhich Church Fathers would that be? Heiser’s view is pretty consistent with the views of the Orthodox Church in many respects.
@ThoskaBrah Which Church Fathers? I’m not sure about your claim, but I am genuinely interested in what is true. If you could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it. Thank you.
Dr. OrtLund.
Thank you. I got through the video. I join the many brothers and sisters to say this makes a lot of sense. Definitely opens up many good and needed questions.
Shalom
Thank you for this video Dr. Ortlund. Listened to it for the second time now. My first time was quite a while ago. I see what you see when looking up at the stars at night and when reading the Silmarillion by the way. I believe the fallen angel theory is pivotal to understanding the problem of evil, that it has support in Scripture and out the nature of angels, concordance with issues presented from modern science (for those concerned about that), and brings deeper fulfillment of themes elsewhere in Scripture. For example, the theme of God’s mercy shows through the tiers of pain that higher animals experience compared to humans, their pain being less severe for lack of self consciousness. Again, God’s providence is demonstrated through the way predation can actually support the health and survival of an ecosystem. Another powerful theme from Scripture that a world with death and pain pre-fall can show is how God chooses and elevates the humble over the proud and violent. If pre-fall angelic corruption and other things like old earth and evolution are true, then God, despite predation and suffering, has created a beautiful diversity of life, chosen humans from among the many low earthly creatures to image Him, and ultimately elevated them above the angels (esp the proud fallen ones). Most of this may be true anyways without things like large scale evolution and predation caused by demons, but the strength of the themes as seen in Scripture are even more powerful with this backdrop. I just keep thinking of Joseph toward the end of Genesis telling his brothers that what they meant for evil God meant for good. This is exactly how Illuvatar responds to Melkor in the Silmarillion as well!
Makes a lot of sense. I love the ‘re-enchantment’ as you describe it. Definitely see overlap in the stars and the angels in the Bible. I’m a YEC yet puzzled with several unanswered questions lurking around about it but old earth creation leaves a bunch more about Scripture. Maybe your further thoughts about 6-day vs old earth will be in a future video. One thing I wondered is: does a ‘literal’ 6-day creation require the Fall of man to have happened on day 6 as you described here? Seems like it could’ve been later.
Gavin I thank God for you and I really appreciate the work you out into these presentations. God bless and keep you in the grace and truth of Jesus Christ.
That was a question I had too. Been YEC my whole life and I've never heard anyone say it HAD to be on day 6, so that part of the video struck me as odd.
That Hideous Strength my favourite too.
But Out of the Silent Planet, that's my favourite favourite. Now I need to keep listening
I not only made it all the way to the end but loved every second so much i wish it would have gone for a little while longer :)
Made it to the end. Will watch it again.
If we take Ephesians 6:12 seriously, I think we have to take the ideas presented in this video seriously.
Watched to the end! It makes a lot of sense and helps with some confusion I had growing up a young earth creationist.
Made it through….so much to get…..well to try to get my ‘head around’. Appreciate your work and study and ability to communicate it so well. Be blessed
Very interesting Gavin! I do share the view that creation is not as it supposed to be. The problem with the theory of the fall of Lucifer causing the world's natural evil is in Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good." God calls the world as He created it very good, even natural evil existed (if we don't hold to young Earth or have another way to explain it). It's not like I have a good answer, more than somehow the world is not the way it supposed to be.
Possibly the fall of man happened when the world was altogether different, and the fall caused the whole universe to change, making man into an evolutionary creature, which was not the original plan of God. So the fall of man and angels contaminated the whole universe, and natural evil and evolution came to be. I know this leaves us with other questions, like every other theory of creation does. God bless you Gavin! Btw, made it till the end. 🤗
Just finished. Excellent as always. I’ve already shared it!
Finished! (Well, I listened while I worked, I hope that still counts.)
As a Young Earth Creationist, I found this entirely compatible and very compelling. But I'd love to hear why you shy away from YE Creationism. It seems to me happily resilient and I think it does the Scripture the most justice. Looking forward to that video! 😀
Philosophically, is 6 Billion years of suffering actually worse than 6,000? No being suffers longer than it's vaporous lifespan. No generation suffers for longer than a generation. I think the only one who is victimized or affected by a greater period of suffering is the Eternal God. Is the concept of an Old Earth really worse if no individual creature is affected by it?
I agree - I like the way Gavin wrestles honestly with these questions. I am an YEC... but realise that each side of this debate has questions that are tough to answer -- this certainly is one of them and I found this video quite compelling. I am not convinced about "theistic evolution", because I am simply not convinced that evolution (the kind required to make jumps that require injection of non-existant information) happened. The evidence -- I think -- is just not there... To say that God "injected" those shifts forward in evolution - means a miracle is needed - which is the same kind of miracle that is needed to create the earth in six days... the reality here is that the passages in Genesis that refer to the actual creation story, don't read like "myth" to me, they read just like a summary of all the things God did... If God is true - and he created the actual universes itself -- then he can create humans without a "naturalist process driven by death, destruction, sickness and decay" -- God says at each point "it was good" -- there is nothing "inherently good in naturalistic evolution" -- that to me is a terrible idea that causes cognitive dissonance.... I am troubled that Christians try to hold such opposing ideas in their minds....
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@reformedapologist
You realize jesus' message wasn't meant for gentiles, but for his Jewish followers?
"Jesus instructs his disciples not to preach to Gentiles or in Samaritan cities.[Matthew 10:5-8]"
Also Common misconception: the word "satan" isn't a character or a name of a angel it's a label that relates to adversaries or obstacle. Humans , entities, etc were called satan because they were considered a adversary or obstacle.
Also in the original text and Jewish belief there was no war in heaven. Evil spirits(shedim) were considered decedents of the serpant that deceived Adam and eve. The war in heaven might be a pagan concept that was inspired from old myths like Greek mythology titanomachy or Norse mythology the Æsir-Vanir War.
@@happymate8943This is all wrong. Continue reading the Gospel accounts. Don’t stop at one passage.
Also, if you have even a passing familiarity with ancient near eastern cultures and religions, you would see that the Scripture accounts (including accounts in Enoch and Jubilees) “correct the record” on what happened during the war in heaven. I suggest you give a book called “The Religion of the Apostles” by Fr. Stephen De Young a read. It’s a good jumping off point.
Listened all the way to the end! (Which was not difficult as this was awesome!). This was really good. I'll have to read the articles you wrote. Two books I've read that are in the same sphere: Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm and John Peckham's Theodicy of Love.
Thanks for your great content!
Made it right to the end! Great video - great questions! I think it makes a LOT of sense.
Made it to the end :) fantastic video! A ton of thought provoking stuff in there and it connected a lot of dots for me to have it laid out so clearly.
I first became consciously aware of this topic after reading The Silmarillion for the first time so your comments at the end about Tolkien made me chuckle. You’ve ignited a fire to read Augustine and some of the other theological sources on this. Really appreciate this video and the work you put into making it!
Fantastic video Gavin, thanks! Really thought-provoking and it seems plausible as it fits with what we do know and helps explain what we don't. A whole lot of mystery in it but also a really attractive kind of wonder and enchantment like you say.
Hey Gavin, thanks for making this. The whole thing was awesome. I got turned on to this idea from Tim Mackie and the Bible project. They made some compelling arguments from Genesis 1:14-18 equating angels with the stars. I too have found it to be a very helpful worldview (and I also love Tolkien, so go figure)
Made it all the way to the end! Over the last 5 years or so I’ve had this sense that the Universe that God created is much more mysterious that I think and could possibly comprehend. This video spoke into that and so much more, thank you! And thank you for bringing the incredible minds of our Christian heritage that weighed in on this subject and for your own realisations and study and commentary! I think this may be my favorite video I’ve heard on the topic thus far.
I was able to make it through the whole video and found this very enlightening. Not sure how I feel about every point, but I understand your thought for the enchantment of the universe. I actually read The Silmarillion and The Philosophy of Tolkien by Peter Kreeft last fall and your explanations really helped bring some clarity into Tolkien's worldview for me.
I personally do have a hard time with speculations in these areas, but there has been something about the Patristic and Medieval Theologians and even the likes of pre-modern men in modern times like Chesterton, Tolkien, and Lewis that has become so fascinating to me in the last year. Reading your book Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals as a required text for my Systematic Theology I class at Southern Baptist Theology Seminary was a huge blessing for me because it really opened these doors of classical theology for me. It seems like the Millennials and Generation-Zers entering into theology are really picking up on some ideas that have been abandoned for quite some time.
What do you think of all of that? Appreciate any response you can give.
I guess as a personal testimony of my 28 years of life, I have noticed that a lot of people around my age that grew up in evangelical churches walked out from church in general after high school, and now many people are coming back after a lifetime of starving for meaning. Makes me think my generation of parents needs to do a much better job of understanding what we believe, why we believe it, then instructing our own children in sound doctrine. Do you find that older generations in and outside of your church (such as boomers and gen-Xers) are much less receptive and/or open to theological ideas such as this and other classical Patristic and Medieval doctrines?
If you really find energy and time for 1 more simple question, I also was curious how you find time to engage apologetics and theology while also fulfilling pastoral ministry. It seems like most people I know end up focusing on one or the other. Do you just schedule very specific time to do studies outside of time with pastoral obligations, and then family/practical responsibilities? I am more or less just curious since I work full-time, serve in church, have a family, and want to make the most of time to study. I guess just answer that however you best see fit lol. Could be a typical daily routine or however you want to approach it. Thank you Gavin. Appreciate what you're doing!