That's a very nice video. The source of your 80m tuning difficulty is that you left the excess wire hanging on the ends of the 80m legs. They will act like a "top hat" adding capacitance and pulling the antenna resonance down frequency. If you did not change the leg length and simply clipped the "excess wire" you left hanging, you would have seen the resonance move up the band. Here is another antenna tuning tip: If you cut your legs too short and the antenna resonates higher than you want, take the excess length of wire you cut off and tightly wrap one end around the main wire a dozen times. Snug that wire wrap right at the insulators of the existing dipole ends. Let the excess wire "dangle." The wire does not have to be electrically connected because it will be coupled to the main wire, even if they are both wires are insulated. (See the top hat effect mentioned above.) Now you can trim back your stub wire by a few inches at a time to zero into the frequency you want without dealing with unwrapping and rewrapping the end insulators. I did this to my 160m inverted vee that was resonating higher than I wanted. I added a 24 inch "tail" to each end. I think I trimmed that back to 18 inches to hit the 1840 KHz I was shooting for.
When the trees sway in the wind, especially high winds, is there enough flex to cover it. I remember my brother adding a small fishing weight and simply tossing an antenna wire over a limb outside his bedroom window. We were 12 and 13 years old playing with his multi band Radio Shack radio. Way back in 1968. Great Video, thank you.
Your improved 10 meter performance is related tk your new resonance on 80. Harmonic resonances are not direct numeric relationships due to the end effects on wire dipoles. An 80 meter dipole/inverted vee/doublet that is cut between 3.84 and 3.9 MHz will resonate as 7/2-waves in the 10 meter band. Your pre-existing 10 meter dipole and the trimmed 80 meter dipole are overlapping, giving you a better center frequency for your 10 meter tuning. Well done, this should pay off on 10 for you. When I discovered how the end effects messed with my math, my mentor and Elmer, Les, W2OQY, walked me thru the theory behind this. That was 56+ years ago, and it was a great lesson to learn. If you sweep your antenna on 6 meters, the 7/2-wave resonance on the 40 meter dipole should put you in the band there, too! Great video and description. I wish I had your space, my urban lot has only about a 25' x 45' clear area out back. Verticals and loaded wires here, hi! 73, de WB2VUO here near Buffalo, NY
Very nice 👍🏼 I used 10awg for my 80 meter portion and 14awg for the remaining bands. I used 1/2" UV rated, ENT (as spacers) with holes drilled for the higher band legs to go through. It's all supported by the 80 meter leg. I put pulleys at either end and a weight at the end of the rope. It keeps some tension on it, but it's able to move as wind flexes the trees. It's been up for 11 years and counting in the Pocono mountains of Pennsylvania. Good luck with your fan dipole!
on a multiband, multi element antenna I used to make them a bit longer than calculations ....then cut about half of what calculations say I should cut ...run the analyzer again and repeat process. If you bring some 12 gauge housewire, a torch and some solder, you can add the foot back onto the end no problem
My first antenna was a fan dipole home brew. It worked really well until a windstorm had taken it down when I was in the hospital having my appendix taken out. Have fun with it!
Hi Rob, Next time you need to tune a wire that is too long and you do as you did for the 80m, the wire that dangles down will have some effect. Just zip tie the dangling end up against the wire for a more exact reading. You did do a great install. Also a couple coats of liquid tape at the wire feed connections will help against weather corrosion. You and the family stay safe. 73 WJ3U
I noticed a commercially available trap dipole had short wires hanging at the inside of the trap that is used to trim it. It was too expensive an antenna for me so I don't remember what brand it was.
I wish I had the outside space you have got. I started with 20m and 17m dipoles in my attic then added 15, 12 and 10m but not enough room to space them out so they interacted with each other too much making tuning tricky. I then put 20m and 17m on one coax and 15, 12 and 10m on another coax and spaced the two by about 4 feet. The ends bend round. I need to go up and adjust the lengths now, they're not too far off with SWR's of 1.1, 1.3, 1.6, 1.7 and 2. Outdoor inverted vee for 60m bent into a 25' x 12' space with the ends bent back at a lower height. As others have said, don't cut wire but fold it back on itself so nothing is cut and can be lengthened if need be. R.F. chokes used on all coax here. G4GHB
Use STAINLESS STEEL Eye-screws with LONG shanks! That way you can leave a wide space for the tree to grow without covering the 'eye.' The old THHN wire is probably better because once the limb fell on it, the wire became hard drawn. Then it will almost never break. The RF doesn't care if the sheathing is coming off. I had a 160M LOOP up at 8M fed with home brew ladder line. it was an outstanding antenna. It was just so-so on 160M. It started to sing on 40M and on 20M it was a crusher. The higher in frequency you would go the better. Using that loop I had QSOs that were armchair copy with NO S-meter reading. Several times I had local Hams come on frequency say they couldn't hear the other Station in the QSO.
As a "casual operator", I got tired of the antenna foolishness, so, I decided to try a 80 meter half wave end fed, at 20 feet, just to see how it did. After confirming Eu DX running just 100 watts, I decided to run it up a little higher. My ham radio life has been antenna stress free, ever since. And, I save a lot on feed line. I still enjoy watching others sweat it, though. 73, Mike/N4ZN
My neighbor has the same antenna you do and is fairly happy with it. I'm a casual operator too but I like to experiment and tinker with different antennas from time to time. I put up this fan dipole for now because I had it lying around but when I get sick of it or something goes wrong I'll try something else.
@@SevenFortyOne I get it, used to be the same here, Rob. I've also run a fan dipole arrangement, and they work. Not having much of a budget of time, or money, anymore....I simply wanted something that worked, and didn't need much attention to do so. In better weather, I do POTA. I also have an EFHW that I use for POTA, when I expect to primarily focus on low band ops, or need to do quick band changes, and don't want to be fiddling with coil, counterpoise tuning (wolf river coil), or tuners, and what-not. A 25' painters pole, and 135' of real estate, and I'm good. Quick, effective, and easy...the only downfall being size. I'm a subscriber, and look forward to your radio content.
@@miker1473 I've found the same for POTA. An EFHW is pretty effective and easy to set up even a few feet off the ground. However, You'll see what it can do with some height in an upcoming video. thanks for the support!
I had an EFHW, but I found the fan dipole to be MUCH less noisy in comparison when installed in the same space for 20 and 40....they are about the same on 80.
@@daveN2MXX You would really enjoy a full wave loop, then. Quietest of the bunch. The beauty of the EFHW, is, no tuner required, because of the extremely high input impedance...they ignore nearby obstructions (as far as affecting tune), and, you can really save on coax cost. Also.....easy-peasy.
Nice job. I would keep the old wire for a future project. Bare copper works just as well and it wont rust. It may turn an ugly color on the surface but that doesn't matter at all.
Lots of clever ideas presented here. I especially like the extended end rope length to allow for raising/lowering the legs without having to climb up the tree every time. I would suggest however, that you not use the length-frequency formula to derive your cutting adjustment because there are many variables that would make it not representative of the lengths you actually need to cut. Factors such as wire velocity factor, loading effects (angle of wires and proximity to nearby loading masses and other local environmental factors), etc, affecting your particular situation. Instead, you would achieve more predictable results if you knew the ACTUAL length of your legs and your actual pre-adjustment frequency. You could then get a realistic factor (probably not 468) to adjust the length to the desired frequency and those adjustments would be based on the specific materials and environment in your unique situation.
Use wire with a blue jacket if you can find it, blue blocks the UV. Look at the garden variety clothesline wire -- they are blue. I have loaded the backyard clothesline once. I fed it on either side of the tensioner folded dipole fashion. It actually worked with a tuner, but the wire is steel and is, of course, subject to corrosion.
Rob I’m really surprised you don’t have a full wave loop at 40’ up feed with 4” open spaced. You only need one element a decent tuner with balanced feed studs and you would have the best of the best 6-160 and quiet too 😉
Great demonstration Rob. Some of my most fun operating portable was using a fan dipole in the trees. As you demonstrated, it is a fair amount of work to setup but I can attest that a resonant antenna is worth the effort. Great video
I Quote: "Please recognize that an antenna need not be resonant in order to be an effective radiator. There is in fact nothing magic about having a resonant antenna, provided of course that you can devise some efficient means to feed the antenna. Many amateurs use non-resonant (even random-length) antennas fed with open-wire transmission lines and antenna tuners. They radiate signals just as well as those using coaxial cable and resonant antennas, and as a bonus they usually can use these antenna systems on multiple frequency bands." -ARRL Antenna Book, Ch. 2 Plenty of room for a great sky loop! 10 bands and 1 antenna.
Nice job on video. I love how you fuss with the SWR! Hell if I get it under 2 across the band I just send it! Although of course 80/75 is not possible with just one antenna. Need a longer one for CW/data modes, oh well. Hello from the other side of CT W1ip
Great video. Many will appreciate the "lessons learned" from you efforts. As a suggestion to others, instead of using just the eye loop bolt as the method to securing to the tree, you could use a pulley connected to the eye hook and then route the rope thru it (this will eliminate the issues with the tree growing over the line...Great video - thanks for the time and effort you put into the production..
Many people use pulleys but I feel they overcomplicate things and add cost. When people do use pulleys I always recommend the marine grade pulleys that are weather resistant and are designed so the rope can't get jammed in the mechanism. Thanks for your comment!
I am using the same electric fence plastic insulators. Hey...your new antenna looks impressive awsome. great job on that. Can't wait to hear you on air with his antenna. 73's de Your Friend Uncle Guenter
I ordered 1000 feet of gray 550 cord. I have pulleys for the points. I should have some 550 cord left that I can use for something when I need, but I want to be sure I didn't come up short. You want the lower bands higher because the hight above the ground makes a difference. Need about 1/4 wavelength above the ground minimum.
The balun is supposed to couple the balanced antenna to the unbalanced feedline so it needs to be placed where the two connect. You can add choking to the feedline at the radio to help attenuate RF on your feedline but if the antenna is set up correctly you shouldn't need anything at the radio
@@SevenFortyOne Thanks for the info. However I'm still curious what happens if I choke it at the radio. That's the way I have it setup now with no balun at the feedpoint. I need to order a small one with bnc connectors that can attach to a banana plug binding post.
It probably doesn't do anything...except maybe consume a small amount of power and maybe change your radiation pattern a bit. In other words, it's not hurting anything but probably not helping either.
This idea has most likely been addressed, but just in case it hasn’t I will make my suggestion. Back in mid 1950’s, my yard layout required that I tie off one end of my 80 meter dipole fixed to the house wall and the other end to a very flexible and distant tree. To keep the antenna taught while not letting the tree’s movement break the antenna as the tree blew around in the wind, I ran a wire secured at the far end of the antenna’s insulator through a pulley and attached a weight, equal to the tension I need, to the line’s end high enough that it would never touch the ground giving me a self tensioning antenna, no matter what the winds or anchor tree were doing. By adjusting the line length, I was also able to ideally position the antenna’s center feed point. As I mentioned in the beginning, what I did was pretty elementary, but nothing was mentioned in the video about maintaining constant tension when dealing with a remote anchor point whose movement is uncontrollable.
I use the eye bolts as pulleys. The trees move and the ropes slide on the bolts. I've been using this method for over 10 years with success. A pulley is prone to jam and freeze in the ice and snow. I don't worry too much about maintaining perfect tension on the wire ad I've not experienced any noticeable difference between a tight wire and slightly slack wire.
Nice video - you should look up how to tie some knots as that will work much better, and can be easily undone (if you select the right knot) - also, Dacron rope is more durable, and has less stretch over time, than nylon paracord. It is well worth the added expense. I have had Dacron rope up for 10 years - I need to replace paracord more often. Just my suggestions. I admire that you humbly told us of the 80 meter rope mistake. Most guys would edit that out - this improves your credibility. You humbly told us about the Good DX, OM. JT
I was under the impression that folding your wires back will give different readings on your analyzer than cutting them. Have you seen that, and if so, how big of a difference did you see?
I think there is some difference between trimming and folding back with insulated wire but its fairly small. It depends on the wire, insulation, mounting method, etc...
Why would you want the 80 and 40 legs lower than the 20 and 10? I had made a 20,40,80 fan dipole as my first HF antenna. Worked well. Replaced it with a full wave 160 and a end fed half wave.
The 80 and 40 will be less affected by being sloped. If they were on the bottom I could have made them sloped and made the 20 and 10 a straight dipole more or less. It seems to work fine as it is though.
Great Video Rob, when I put up my 80m loop several was telling me I would need pulley's , ummm nope! I done the same thing you did, ran the paracord right the the eye-hook bolt and it works just fine. I also used that same insulators from Tractor Supply, I didn't think about the wire and rope still being intermingled if the insulator broke, that's nice to know :)
Funny you should mention that. My ham neighbor has an antenna up that uses pulleys and the paracord jumped the pulley and got wedged between it and the support frame. The eye hook trick is simpler, cheaper, and less prone to problems.
@@SevenFortyOne Hence one of the reasons I went that route, local guy was telling me to make sure I got a certain size rope and a certain size pulley or it would jump off the pulley and get jammed....so yea I'm gonna skip the pulley part :)
@@K5YVY Only skip pulleys if you're attached to something that doesn't move in the wind. Otherwise, it will abrade, or stretch, the wire, and supporting cordage. But, it's your station-your call.
My old fan dipole was up for over 6 years in the trees with just eye hooks. No abrasion on the rope to speak of despite harsh New England winters and the occasional strong thunderstorm. The only reason it came down was because a branch fell directly on one of the legs and ripped the wire out of the feed point. In my experience pulleys cause more problems than they solve so I don't use them but like you said its up to each person to decide what is the best solution for them and their situation.
Great video .. one thing i do is tie the end of the halliard to the base of the eye hook to make sure the rope doesn't get pulled through the upper eye hook when your messing around with the antenna, reduces ladder climbing. Also, when the legs of the fan dipole are closer together, they interact more with each other, and trimming the longest wires first is the best approach -- your elements were spread plenty far apart to not have this problem. i wonder if the coax in your setup is buried, i didn't see how it gets into the shack. great work, next up how not fall off a ladder. Gravity is a unforgiving motha'
I did trim the longest ones first - seemed to work well. The coax is sort of buried, its just run on top of the ground with the grass having grown over it over the years. I plan to replace the coax and upgrade the shack entry in the spring
I have drooped the various bands one under the other. Take the short band to the insulator of the the next longest and droop it say 2 feet, tie off and so on.. also attach the balun and the ends to carabeeners so they dont get grown into the tree or dog clasp even.
Maybe I'm confused but the 80m should be highest to get the coax to be closest to 50 ohm. Most people will never get as high as recommended. If it is lower you will have less than 50 ohm or so I believe. You cant get it to it's proper height but closer is best? No? Same for 40 ect. 10m needs the least height. If my thinking is incorrect please explain. Certainly you might want the 80 and 40 at an inverted V, not sure if that was your intention. Just trying to learn as I am new. I realize that the fan dipole has some inherent compromises compared to separate dipoles.
The difference in height between having the 80m wire on bottom vs top in regards to impedance is negligible. The bigger difference is seen in how straight you can make the elements. Also, the higher frequency bands work better the higher and straighter you can get the wires. So in my case the 80 and 40 would be better off with the sloped wires while the 20 and 10 wires would be better straight out. But even that is probably pretty negligible and nit-picky with an antenna like this. The best thing to do is not get too worried about theory and just put something up and see how it works.
Great job! I’ve often considered a fan dipole and I have a similar collection of trees so it might work for me too. I’ll wait til February and frigid snowy weather first! Hahahaha
you will find that 15m is 5/8th of 40m, that how we get 15m as a bonus band on a dx commander vertical, like wise when installing the 80m inv L you get 30m bang on the snout,tbh i would have utilised either a radio atu or a good quality external atu, the palstar a2k springs to mind, in my instance i have a mono band ea 80m sloper and when i ran it through my rig expert aa54 analyser is showed the dip to be the middle of ssb portion,but as i mainly do ft8, i ran the tuner on my spe 1.3kfa ,and got a perfect match of 1.0 to 1.1 on the ft8 segment, i know its tricking the system,but that is why i spent the money on a decent set of linears with the built in atu, overall a good video keep them coming tbh antenna tuning is a bit of a dark art, where do you want to operate top bottom or middle of any/all bands :) :)
Good gosh, how long of section of coax did you have to run to get your ham shack to your radio???? I would have bought a 40 foot telescoping mast and use only about 50 feet or less amount of coax.
Great video! Homebrew 80,40,20 Meter Fan Dipole is what I use and have had great results. Originally put it up for experimentation and it worked so well I left it up lol. 73! de KE8LUC 📻
Great video. Thank you!!! Still I don’t think you should have mounted the shorter wires higher. That’s o.k. But I am puzzled how you could get those measurements on some bands, e.g. 80m. The swr doesn’t match the measured impedance mathematically. It should be much higher at the impedance you read on the meter. Why doesn’t complex impedance (X) move a single bit while you‘re sweeping? That phenomenon occurred on other bands too. You shouldn’t trust the mentioned strange measurements. My guess is that the feedline somehow influenced the measurements. So you‘re good on 40m where the measurement behaved as you would expect, and you probably have to check everything over again on other bands, where you got strange results. 73, good DX, merry Christmas and a happy new year 👋🏻
Thanks for 5he observation. I should have used a short coax to test right at the antenna. Having said that, it seems to be working just fine with my radios
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but ultimately the choice is yours as to what is best. Start with something that fits and then make changes, experiment and see what works best for you.
Nice video! Fan dipoles are great, i use them regularly and ive had great luck with them. Clear Flex SEAL spray works great for sealing connections. However, Radiowavz is the WORST at customer service, very arrogant and not willing to help in the least, im certain im not the only one!
I thought this would be another idiot antenna “expert” on RUclips, but you actually did pretty good with your setup. I’m running an inverted fan dipole and I sympathize with your experience messing with trees. By the way, what height are you running your 80m? Thanks for sharing.
A spring will change electrical length as trees move in the wind. It might work but could cause the tuning to fluctuate. Also, I trimmed 8 feet off of my 80 meter wires and I'm not sure where you'd get a spring that long
Next time use black wire .Its more uv resistant. Mine was up for 10 years and if someone didnt get caught in it at nite sneakin around it could have stayed up. Part of it went back up, the wire was perfect..
Radiowavz come with those really crappy plastic scraps for insulators. I assume that’s what you replaced. Kinda weird that they send them out that way. Really junky for a critical function.
i wonder moving the 10 closer to the next element up. woudl change it. if i remember from long ago.. the spacing from each element will change SWR... to me anything below 2 is good for me . a tuner can pull 3 down if need be i guess.
That's a very nice video.
The source of your 80m tuning difficulty is that you left the excess wire hanging on the ends of the 80m legs. They will act like a "top hat" adding capacitance and pulling the antenna resonance down frequency. If you did not change the leg length and simply clipped the "excess wire" you left hanging, you would have seen the resonance move up the band.
Here is another antenna tuning tip:
If you cut your legs too short and the antenna resonates higher than you want, take the excess length of wire you cut off and tightly wrap one end around the main wire a dozen times. Snug that wire wrap right at the insulators of the existing dipole ends. Let the excess wire "dangle." The wire does not have to be electrically connected because it will be coupled to the main wire, even if they are both wires are insulated. (See the top hat effect mentioned above.)
Now you can trim back your stub wire by a few inches at a time to zero into the frequency you want without dealing with unwrapping and rewrapping the end insulators. I did this to my 160m inverted vee that was resonating higher than I wanted. I added a 24 inch "tail" to each end. I think I trimmed that back to 18 inches to hit the 1840 KHz I was shooting for.
When the trees sway in the wind, especially high winds, is there enough flex to cover it. I remember my brother adding a small fishing weight and simply tossing an antenna wire over a limb outside his bedroom window. We were 12 and 13 years old playing with his multi band Radio Shack radio. Way back in 1968. Great Video, thank you.
Yes - most of the trees I used are old and thick so they don't sway very much in the first place
gosh I bet he had to run dang 600 foot of coax line to his radio...... geeeezzzz
Your improved 10 meter performance is related tk your new resonance on 80. Harmonic resonances are not direct numeric relationships due to the end effects on wire dipoles. An 80 meter dipole/inverted vee/doublet that is cut between 3.84 and 3.9 MHz will resonate as 7/2-waves in the 10 meter band. Your pre-existing 10 meter dipole and the trimmed 80 meter dipole are overlapping, giving you a better center frequency for your 10 meter tuning. Well done, this should pay off on 10 for you.
When I discovered how the end effects messed with my math, my mentor and Elmer, Les, W2OQY, walked me thru the theory behind this. That was 56+ years ago, and it was a great lesson to learn. If you sweep your antenna on 6 meters, the 7/2-wave resonance on the 40 meter dipole should put you in the band there, too!
Great video and description. I wish I had your space, my urban lot has only about a 25' x 45' clear area out back. Verticals and loaded wires here, hi!
73, de WB2VUO here near Buffalo, NY
Thanks for the info!
Very nice 👍🏼
I used 10awg for my 80 meter portion and 14awg for the remaining bands. I used 1/2" UV rated, ENT (as spacers) with holes drilled for the higher band legs to go through. It's all supported by the 80 meter leg.
I put pulleys at either end and a weight at the end of the rope. It keeps some tension on it, but it's able to move as wind flexes the trees.
It's been up for 11 years and counting in the Pocono mountains of Pennsylvania.
Good luck with your fan dipole!
Awesome! I wad going to home brew something like that but had this lying around so I figured I'd try it out
on a multiband, multi element antenna I used to make them a bit longer than calculations ....then cut about half of what calculations say I should cut ...run the analyzer again and repeat process. If you bring some 12 gauge housewire, a torch and some solder, you can add the foot back onto the end no problem
Thanks. Just starting to get into HF and want to put up my first HF antenna. I'm leaning toward a fan dipole. This video really helped a lot.
Cool! Glad this was helpful!
My first antenna was a fan dipole home brew. It worked really well until a windstorm had taken it down when I was in the hospital having my appendix taken out. Have fun with it!
Fan dipoles have worked well for me so far
Old, cold memories You're right, cold, windy, snowy weather is the time to install antennas. lol
Hi Rob,
Next time you need to tune a wire that is too long and you do as you did for the 80m, the wire that dangles down will have some effect. Just zip tie the dangling end up against the wire for a more exact reading. You did do a great install. Also a couple coats of liquid tape at the wire feed connections will help against weather corrosion. You and the family stay safe. 73 WJ3U
Thanks Don!
I noticed a commercially available trap dipole had short wires hanging at the inside of the trap that is used to trim it. It was too expensive an antenna for me so I don't remember what brand it was.
I wish I had the outside space you have got.
I started with 20m and 17m dipoles in my attic then added 15, 12 and 10m but not enough room to space them out so they interacted with each other too much making tuning tricky.
I then put 20m and 17m on one coax and 15, 12 and 10m on another coax and spaced the two by about 4 feet. The ends bend round. I need to go up and adjust the lengths now, they're not too far off with SWR's of 1.1, 1.3, 1.6, 1.7 and 2.
Outdoor inverted vee for 60m bent into a 25' x 12' space with the ends bent back at a lower height.
As others have said, don't cut wire but fold it back on itself so nothing is cut and can be lengthened if need be. R.F. chokes used on all coax here.
G4GHB
Use STAINLESS STEEL Eye-screws with LONG shanks! That way you can leave a wide space for the tree to grow without covering the 'eye.' The old THHN wire is probably better because once the limb fell on it, the wire became hard drawn. Then it will almost never break. The RF doesn't care if the sheathing is coming off. I had a 160M LOOP up at 8M fed with home brew ladder line. it was an outstanding antenna. It was just so-so on 160M. It started to sing on 40M and on 20M it was a crusher. The higher in frequency you would go the better. Using that loop I had QSOs that were armchair copy with NO S-meter reading. Several times I had local Hams come on frequency say they couldn't hear the other Station in the QSO.
Roger - what he said. JT
Paracord. I grew up a military Brat. Paracord was recycled parachute cord. Strip the inner strands, you got a full service cord.
As a "casual operator", I got tired of the antenna foolishness, so, I decided to try a 80 meter half wave end fed, at 20 feet, just to see how it did. After confirming Eu DX running just 100 watts, I decided to run it up a little higher. My ham radio life has been antenna stress free, ever since. And, I save a lot on feed line. I still enjoy watching others sweat it, though. 73, Mike/N4ZN
My neighbor has the same antenna you do and is fairly happy with it. I'm a casual operator too but I like to experiment and tinker with different antennas from time to time. I put up this fan dipole for now because I had it lying around but when I get sick of it or something goes wrong I'll try something else.
@@SevenFortyOne I get it, used to be the same here, Rob. I've also run a fan dipole arrangement, and they work. Not having much of a budget of time, or money, anymore....I simply wanted something that worked, and didn't need much attention to do so. In better weather, I do POTA. I also have an EFHW that I use for POTA, when I expect to primarily focus on low band ops, or need to do quick band changes, and don't want to be fiddling with coil, counterpoise tuning (wolf river coil), or tuners, and what-not. A 25' painters pole, and 135' of real estate, and I'm good. Quick, effective, and easy...the only downfall being size. I'm a subscriber, and look forward to your radio content.
@@miker1473 I've found the same for POTA. An EFHW is pretty effective and easy to set up even a few feet off the ground. However, You'll see what it can do with some height in an upcoming video. thanks for the support!
I had an EFHW, but I found the fan dipole to be MUCH less noisy in comparison when installed in the same space for 20 and 40....they are about the same on 80.
@@daveN2MXX You would really enjoy a full wave loop, then. Quietest of the bunch. The beauty of the EFHW, is, no tuner required, because of the extremely high input impedance...they ignore nearby obstructions (as far as affecting tune), and, you can really save on coax cost. Also.....easy-peasy.
Nice job. I would keep the old wire for a future project. Bare copper works just as well and it wont rust. It may turn an ugly color on the surface but that doesn't matter at all.
I have an idea for the old wire...just need time to implement
Lots of clever ideas presented here. I especially like the extended end rope length to allow for raising/lowering the legs without having to climb up the tree every time.
I would suggest however, that you not use the length-frequency formula to derive your cutting adjustment because there are many variables that would make it not representative of the lengths you actually need to cut. Factors such as wire velocity factor, loading effects (angle of wires and proximity to nearby loading masses and other local environmental factors), etc, affecting your particular situation.
Instead, you would achieve more predictable results if you knew the ACTUAL length of your legs and your actual pre-adjustment frequency. You could then get a realistic factor (probably not 468) to adjust the length to the desired frequency and those adjustments would be based on the specific materials and environment in your unique situation.
Use wire with a blue jacket if you can find it, blue blocks the UV. Look at the garden variety clothesline wire -- they are blue. I have loaded the backyard clothesline once. I fed it on either side of the tensioner folded dipole fashion. It actually worked with a tuner, but the wire is steel and is, of course, subject to corrosion.
Rob I’m really surprised you don’t have a full wave loop at 40’ up feed with 4” open spaced. You only need one element a decent tuner with balanced feed studs and you would have the best of the best 6-160 and quiet too 😉
I'm thinking about a delta loop for the spring. It won't be up 40 though..
Great demonstration Rob. Some of my most fun operating portable was using a fan dipole in the trees. As you demonstrated, it is a fair amount of work to setup but I can attest that a resonant antenna is worth the effort. Great video
Thanks!
I Quote: "Please recognize that an antenna need not be resonant in order to be an effective radiator. There is in fact nothing magic about having a resonant antenna, provided of course that you can devise some efficient means to feed the antenna. Many amateurs use non-resonant (even random-length) antennas fed with open-wire transmission lines and antenna tuners. They radiate signals just as well as those using coaxial cable and resonant antennas, and as a bonus they usually can use these antenna systems on multiple frequency bands."
-ARRL Antenna Book, Ch. 2
Plenty of room for a great sky loop! 10 bands and 1 antenna.
I've wondered about that particular antenna. I like RadioWavz stuff. 73!
I can appreciate the sarcasm. It seems every time I have an issue with my antenna it’s freezing, raining and snowing outside. Haha
Nice job on video. I love how you fuss with the SWR! Hell if I get it under 2 across the band I just send it! Although of course 80/75 is not possible with just one antenna. Need a longer one for CW/data modes, oh well. Hello from the other side of CT W1ip
It was easy enough to tune so I figured I might as well. 73 from Tolland County!
Great video. Many will appreciate the "lessons learned" from you efforts. As a suggestion to others, instead of using just the eye loop bolt as the method to securing to the tree, you could use a pulley connected to the eye hook and then route the rope thru it (this will eliminate the issues with the tree growing over the line...Great video - thanks for the time and effort you put into the production..
Many people use pulleys but I feel they overcomplicate things and add cost. When people do use pulleys I always recommend the marine grade pulleys that are weather resistant and are designed so the rope can't get jammed in the mechanism. Thanks for your comment!
I am using the same electric fence plastic insulators. Hey...your new antenna looks impressive awsome. great job on that. Can't wait to hear you on air with his antenna. 73's de Your Friend Uncle Guenter
Thanks! I'll be listening for you!
Great Video! Your Back Yard is similar to my own and you have given me some Great Ideas to work with when I put up my own Di-Pole Antenna!
Awesome!
I ordered 1000 feet of gray 550 cord. I have pulleys for the points. I should have some 550 cord left that I can use for something when I need, but I want to be sure I didn't come up short. You want the lower bands higher because the hight above the ground makes a difference. Need about 1/4 wavelength above the ground minimum.
W
Hey very cool vid. It was interesting to learn what it is like to put up an antenna. TYFP!
You should always put a 1:1 current mode balun at the feed point of a dipole like that. I built a 75, 40, & 15 fan dipole that works great.
This antenna has one built in. That's what is inside the cylinder where the coax connects
What happens if I choke the dipole at the radio instead of the feedpoint?
The balun is supposed to couple the balanced antenna to the unbalanced feedline so it needs to be placed where the two connect. You can add choking to the feedline at the radio to help attenuate RF on your feedline but if the antenna is set up correctly you shouldn't need anything at the radio
@@SevenFortyOne Thanks for the info. However I'm still curious what happens if I choke it at the radio. That's the way I have it setup now with no balun at the feedpoint. I need to order a small one with bnc connectors that can attach to a banana plug binding post.
It probably doesn't do anything...except maybe consume a small amount of power and maybe change your radiation pattern a bit. In other words, it's not hurting anything but probably not helping either.
This idea has most likely been addressed, but just in case it hasn’t I will make my suggestion.
Back in mid 1950’s, my yard layout required that I tie off one end of my 80 meter dipole fixed to the house wall and the other end to a very flexible and distant tree. To keep the antenna taught while not letting the tree’s movement break the antenna as the tree blew around in the wind, I ran a wire secured at the far end of the antenna’s insulator through a pulley and attached a weight, equal to the tension I need, to the line’s end high enough that it would never touch the ground giving me a self tensioning antenna, no matter what the winds or anchor tree were doing.
By adjusting the line length, I was also able to ideally position the antenna’s center feed point.
As I mentioned in the beginning, what I did was pretty elementary, but nothing was mentioned in the video about maintaining constant tension when dealing with a remote anchor point whose movement is uncontrollable.
I use the eye bolts as pulleys. The trees move and the ropes slide on the bolts. I've been using this method for over 10 years with success. A pulley is prone to jam and freeze in the ice and snow. I don't worry too much about maintaining perfect tension on the wire ad I've not experienced any noticeable difference between a tight wire and slightly slack wire.
Really nice video. This should be great for anyone putting up their own antenna. Thanks for sharing.
glad you liked it!
great info nice to see how it all comes together by the way early MERRY CHRISTMAS BUDDY thumbs up shared
Merry Christmas Dallas!
Nice video - you should look up how to tie some knots as that will work much better, and can be easily undone (if you select the right knot) - also, Dacron rope is more durable, and has less stretch over time, than nylon paracord. It is well worth the added expense. I have had Dacron rope up for 10 years - I need to replace paracord more often. Just my suggestions. I admire that you humbly told us of the 80 meter rope mistake. Most guys would edit that out - this improves your credibility. You humbly told us about the Good DX, OM. JT
I have always been deficient at knot tying...just one of those things I never had a knack for
I was under the impression that folding your wires back will give different readings on your analyzer than cutting them. Have you seen that, and if so, how big of a difference did you see?
I think there is some difference between trimming and folding back with insulated wire but its fairly small. It depends on the wire, insulation, mounting method, etc...
Finally got to a video with ideas I can use. Thanks fella!
Why would you want the 80 and 40 legs lower than the 20 and 10? I had made a 20,40,80 fan dipole as my first HF antenna. Worked well. Replaced it with a full wave 160 and a end fed half wave.
The 80 and 40 will be less affected by being sloped. If they were on the bottom I could have made them sloped and made the 20 and 10 a straight dipole more or less. It seems to work fine as it is though.
Great Video Rob, when I put up my 80m loop several was telling me I would need pulley's , ummm nope! I done the same thing you did, ran the paracord right the the eye-hook bolt and it works just fine. I also used that same insulators from Tractor Supply, I didn't think about the wire and rope still being intermingled if the insulator broke, that's nice to know :)
Funny you should mention that. My ham neighbor has an antenna up that uses pulleys and the paracord jumped the pulley and got wedged between it and the support frame. The eye hook trick is simpler, cheaper, and less prone to problems.
@@SevenFortyOne Hence one of the reasons I went that route, local guy was telling me to make sure I got a certain size rope and a certain size pulley or it would jump off the pulley and get jammed....so yea I'm gonna skip the pulley part :)
@@K5YVY Only skip pulleys if you're attached to something that doesn't move in the wind. Otherwise, it will abrade, or stretch, the wire, and supporting cordage. But, it's your station-your call.
My old fan dipole was up for over 6 years in the trees with just eye hooks. No abrasion on the rope to speak of despite harsh New England winters and the occasional strong thunderstorm. The only reason it came down was because a branch fell directly on one of the legs and ripped the wire out of the feed point. In my experience pulleys cause more problems than they solve so I don't use them but like you said its up to each person to decide what is the best solution for them and their situation.
@@miker1473 I use counter weights on the paracord to allow for movement. No problem.
Great video .. one thing i do is tie the end of the halliard to the base of the eye hook to make sure the rope doesn't get pulled through the upper eye hook when your messing around with the antenna, reduces ladder climbing. Also, when the legs of the fan dipole are closer together, they interact more with each other, and trimming the longest wires first is the best approach -- your elements were spread plenty far apart to not have this problem. i wonder if the coax in your setup is buried, i didn't see how it gets into the shack. great work, next up how not fall off a ladder. Gravity is a unforgiving motha'
I did trim the longest ones first - seemed to work well. The coax is sort of buried, its just run on top of the ground with the grass having grown over it over the years. I plan to replace the coax and upgrade the shack entry in the spring
Good to follow you doing this Rob and thanks for the video.
Glad you enjoyed this!
I have drooped the various bands one under the other. Take the short band to the insulator of the the next longest and droop it say 2 feet, tie off and so on.. also attach the balun and the ends to carabeeners so they dont get grown into the tree or dog clasp even.
Very nice explanation Rob , and good work . I screenshot the math formula. That’s some
Mr Carlsons Lab wizardry right there lol
Great job
Glad you liked this one Dallas!
Maybe I'm confused but the 80m should be highest to get the coax to be closest to 50 ohm. Most people will never get as high as recommended. If it is lower you will have less than 50 ohm or so I believe. You cant get it to it's proper height but closer is best? No? Same for 40 ect. 10m needs the least height. If my thinking is incorrect please explain. Certainly you might want the 80 and 40 at an inverted V, not sure if that was your intention. Just trying to learn as I am new. I realize that the fan dipole has some inherent compromises compared to separate dipoles.
The difference in height between having the 80m wire on bottom vs top in regards to impedance is negligible. The bigger difference is seen in how straight you can make the elements. Also, the higher frequency bands work better the higher and straighter you can get the wires. So in my case the 80 and 40 would be better off with the sloped wires while the 20 and 10 wires would be better straight out. But even that is probably pretty negligible and nit-picky with an antenna like this. The best thing to do is not get too worried about theory and just put something up and see how it works.
Great job! I’ve often considered a fan dipole and I have a similar collection of trees so it might work for me too. I’ll wait til February and frigid snowy weather first! Hahahaha
I usually wait for Feb to do antenna work too but I guess I got a jump on things this year😁
you will find that 15m is 5/8th of 40m, that how we get 15m as a bonus band on a dx commander vertical, like wise when installing the 80m inv L you get 30m bang on the snout,tbh i would have utilised either a radio atu or a good quality external atu, the palstar a2k springs to mind, in my instance i have a mono band ea 80m sloper and when i ran it through my rig expert aa54 analyser is showed the dip to be the middle of ssb portion,but as i mainly do ft8, i ran the tuner on my spe 1.3kfa ,and got a perfect match of 1.0 to 1.1 on the ft8 segment, i know its tricking the system,but that is why i spent the money on a decent set of linears with the built in atu, overall a good video keep them coming tbh antenna tuning is a bit of a dark art, where do you want to operate top bottom or middle of any/all bands :) :)
Excellent points. There are always compromises to be made...
wow, what a great video... great ideas and the swr work very informative.. thank you for your time making this video. Buddy S.
Nice. I like the ham radio content.
I'm glad you are enjoying it!
Looks like your resonant on the cool kids 7.200 drunkenness' frequency. You can jam, swear with the best of them now. LOL!
Luckily have a birdie on my main radio (746pro) and can't hear anything on that freq!
Great work mate Awesome contact
Thanks Chris!
@@SevenFortyOne i’m going out in the car to play HF now
You have just got me in the mood ha ha
Awesome! I might be going out for a POTA in a little while myself
@@SevenFortyOne Give me a shout on discord if it looks good thanks
Ziptie a rope? Come on coach, there is youtube for that. Keep up the good work. Thanks for the video.
Good gosh, how long of section of coax did you have to run to get your ham shack to your radio???? I would have bought a 40 foot telescoping mast and use only about 50 feet or less amount of coax.
100 feet...not a big deal...
Install the antenna higher up tall trees will allow it
Awesome antenna! and great setup video too!
Thanks!
Great video! Homebrew 80,40,20 Meter Fan Dipole is what I use and have had great results. Originally put it up for experimentation and it worked so well I left it up lol. 73! de KE8LUC 📻
Cool! Sounds like a good antenna to me
Great video. Thank you!!! Still I don’t think you should have mounted the shorter wires higher. That’s o.k. But I am puzzled how you could get those measurements on some bands, e.g. 80m. The swr doesn’t match the measured impedance mathematically. It should be much higher at the impedance you read on the meter. Why doesn’t complex impedance (X) move a single bit while you‘re sweeping? That phenomenon occurred on other bands too. You shouldn’t trust the mentioned strange measurements. My guess is that the feedline somehow influenced the measurements. So you‘re good on 40m where the measurement behaved as you would expect, and you probably have to check everything over again on other bands, where you got strange results. 73, good DX, merry Christmas and a happy new year 👋🏻
Thanks for 5he observation. I should have used a short coax to test right at the antenna. Having said that, it seems to be working just fine with my radios
@@SevenFortyOne Great! So good DX again! 73 from Germany
Rob, good information,
Will this work with a tuner inside the radio(ic7300)? And how does that “choose “ the right leg per band? Thanks
I don't know about the 7300. The antenna works by being resonant on the frequencies the wires are tuned to
Hi just a quickie, I have 112 foot spaces straight line by 33 foot. Looking at this what’s my best option, moving house is not one of them
I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but ultimately the choice is yours as to what is best. Start with something that fits and then make changes, experiment and see what works best for you.
Nice job enjoyed the video. 73 Leo
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!
Nice video! Fan dipoles are great, i use them regularly and ive had great luck with them. Clear Flex SEAL spray works great for sealing connections. However, Radiowavz is the WORST at customer service, very arrogant and not willing to help in the least, im certain im not the only one!
I thought this would be another idiot antenna “expert” on RUclips, but you actually did pretty good with your setup. I’m running an inverted fan dipole and I sympathize with your experience messing with trees. By the way, what height are you running your 80m? Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, I'm not an expert, just a practitioner. 80m is about 15 or so feet at the apex
Thanks for best your video
I think your SWR is good enough on all the bands. Maybe not perfect but I have seen people use antennas much worse. 73 de W4DES
Is it feasible to use a stiff steel spring on a leg to increase it's length, allowing you to keep the original leg length or almost all of it?
A spring will change electrical length as trees move in the wind. It might work but could cause the tuning to fluctuate. Also, I trimmed 8 feet off of my 80 meter wires and I'm not sure where you'd get a spring that long
Great video!!
you cant let the legs touch, anywhere exept at the feed point. if you have swr problems, separate your wires
The wires don't touch anyplace but at the feed point on this antenna.
Next time use black wire .Its more uv resistant. Mine was up for 10 years and if someone didnt get caught in it at nite sneakin around it could have stayed up. Part of it went back up, the wire was perfect..
This antenna is black wire
Just curious, how was the feedline run to the house?
Direct bury a few inches below the grass
80m is a large band, almost need 2 antennas for it.
Good point
Nice 👍 job!
Thanks Don!
god job
Radiowavz come with those really crappy plastic scraps for insulators. I assume that’s what you replaced. Kinda weird that they send them out that way. Really junky for a critical function.
Yeah - I wasn't about to use those for anything.
Ohms out of site
Boy nailing those trees doesn't looks nice, you are killing it slowly.
looks like he has an extra tree
i wonder moving the 10 closer to the next element up. woudl change it. if i remember from long ago.. the spacing from each element will change SWR... to me anything below 2 is good for me . a tuner can pull 3 down if need be i guess.
It might change things a little but not enough to matter much. and like you said, a tuner would clean things up if need be.
@@SevenFortyOne so how is this working so far? was thinking of 2 or 3 band fan. but havent really planed one out yet.