SimonizeShow TV: ruclips.net/channel/UC3ufBaw0vi9wyfypnVkB5rA Twitch: www.twitch.tv/simonizeshow Discord: discord.gg/pujEA9mpYr If that discord link doesn't work, try disabling any pop-up or ad blocker you have, or entering the address manually in the discord app. You can find all the UI elements used and lots of other information about rogues on my discord. 0:00 Intro 0:43 Assassination + Rupture Builds 2:38 WarcraftLogs Rant 5:51 When to Gem Armor Penetration as Combat? 9:28 Sunder vs Expose Rogue Tips and Tricks in ICC: ruclips.net/video/i31KTocCynM/видео.html Combat Rogue ICC Gearing Guide: ruclips.net/video/lh4dQ-NqU8k/видео.html Assassination Rogue ICC Gearing Guide: ruclips.net/video/zKOCDId1ks0/видео.html Expose Armor vs Sunder Armor Simulator Comparison: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1tbmkD2uqCFX0AJD7yjYEYwxT_PSoR3UjwFj08cxRyzY/htmlview
To me the debate of sunder vs expose is simple. A. Am I playing my warrior this week? Then the rogues are exposing. Am I playing my rogue this week? Then the warriors are sundering. EZ clap.
The part that’s strange to me is they will add unholy frenzy damage to a blood deathknights damage done even though it used to be separated out like tricks…
Makes sense to me. If you're not going to separate ToT damage from the Rogue's it basically means two things: 1. Rogues will have a much harder time to parse unless there's an affliction warlock in the group since ToT's value on affli's Corruption is MASSIVE (looking at WCL logs it's easily between 400-600 DPS on a well-geared and skilled warlock) 2. If there's two Rogues in the group and only 1 affli lock it's basically guaranteed that you won't be able to parse as the off-rogue not ToTing the affli lock. And with affli lock being less valuable in tier 10 than they were in previous tiers, it's more likely for them to not really be in the raid anymore. Both of the above factors combined create a degenerate game-state where parsing as a Rogue becomes much more difficult. Many of the rules that WCL puts in place is to dissuade and not promote extreme degenerate or annoying gameplay from happening. Unholy Frenzy being combined with a BDK's damage profile doesn't really promote any kind of degenerate gameplay simply because for the most part catering to the lowest DPS Tank spec's parse is extreme grief to the point where even the most tryhard won't bother with it. Another factor to take into consideration beyond being reliant on an affli lock to parse as a rogue if ToT was to be baked into your parse on WCL is that you're also reliant on having a GOOD GEARED player to use your ToT on. So now it's an added layer of compounding factors that could prevent a Rogue from getting higher parses. So unless you want to be reliant on having a good geared and skilled affli lock in your raid in order to parse well, I wouldn't want to have ToT be taken into consideration for parsing. Especially with affli locks generally falling out of favor this tier. Also as a final note, if ToT were to be taken into consideration for Rogues you'd also have to start taking into consideration stuff like Demonic Pact. But now you're reaching a degenerate point in time where it just starts getting really unnecessarily confusing. Easier to simply have BDKs as an exception considering their DPS as a Tank is absolute trash and, well, they're a Tank. I do agree that when it comes to the overall DPS tier list on WCL it should be included, though.
Same thing could be said about feral not being there for unholy frenzy. I don't think it even matters, since majority of 25m raids will have atleast 1 affli lock. The "problem" comes from having multiple affli locks and rogue tricksing them all and always being number 1. @@QPoily
@@sposauc I already covered BDKs in the exact comment you replied to, though. But to repeat myself: BDK parsing isn't as big of a deal as Rogue parsing is: 1. They're a Tank. Tank parsing is already a joke and there's going to be fewer BDKs actually going for parses as there will be Rogue players. Adding Unholy Frenzy to a BDK's parse is less of an issue as it would be for Rogues due to role difference and actual amount of players affected. 2. They're already bottom barrel DPS out of all the Tank DPS even WITH Unholy Frenzy counting towards their own DPS done. Letting Unholy Frenzy count towards their parse is more so a mercy change than anything else. Regarding your claim that every 25m will have an affli lock I'm not so sure about that. Granted I'm basing this off of my own experiences playing Warmane but on Warmane we barely ever had affli locks in our LoD runs. They're a caster DPS which brings no raidbuffs and if you have a DPS slot left and have all raidbuffs covered; you might as well bring the highest DPS, which in Warmane's case was Fire Mage and in Classic's case is a soft tie between Feral/Fwarr/Fire mage. Most likely similar to Warmane Fire mages will be stacked before opting to specifically take an affli lock. Fire mages simply have much stronger opener burst which with kill-times going down as players get more gear and as the 30% buff starts ramping up is much more valuable. Not only that, Fire mages also have a wider range of mechanics they can ignore/cheese in ICC which further bumps up their potency in ICC specifically. So I'm not so certain that you'll remain seeing at least 1 affli lock in every 25 man raid like you did pre-ICC. Especially since affli locks in ICC are going to be asked to play demo more with the potency of affli locks going down and the raid-DPS potency of demo going down. I figure many warlocks are either going to reroll if they don't enjoy playing demo, or they'll just full gear demo and have affli as an OS just in case.
@5:20 I want Shattering Throw dmg added to my personal dps as well! @13:00 do they take into account the dps loss of other physicals in the raid? a single war needs about 7.5 seconds to get 5 stacks of sunder on to the boss (assuming he doesnt press anything else) this is usualy the time were Lust and most proc trinkets are active. for a warrior with runestone this means he gets basicly no value from his first procs. if the rog uses a litle expose at the start the warrior can throw his shatter instand, so every physical will get a great benefit! After that the rog could drop the expose and the warrior will pull it back up dropping the debuff sounds very bad, but not having sunders or expose in the first 10 seconds of the fight (usually for physicals the phase were they deal the most dps) sounds even worse to me
I believe this is the best possible scenario. Rogues exposing on the opener and warriors sundering after. Expose will drop 14seconds into the fight or so (because u need 2 gcds to apply it) and that's ample time for warriors to do their burst etc AND apply sunders after that.
He did the math in early Naxx and it turned out not to really be the case. I do not remember his specifics but from what I understand: Firstly, a rogue wouldn't be able to get EA up for about 2-3 seconds as we need at least one combo point to use it. In that time there would have been a stack or two of Sunder up. To then have the armor debuff drop off completely at any point in the fight when people are already into their rotations and slowly build up over 7.5 seconds results in a large DPS loss. This would all be far more feasible if the game would let you start Sunder stacks while EA is up but unfortunately you have to wait for it to drop off completely before you can begin to reapply an armor debuff. Also, I don't know about your guild, but for bosses where we lust from the start, we typically wait until 4-5 seconds into a pull before lust to give the tank a couple GCDs to establish threat and for everyone to get into their positions. Sunder armor is already at 3-4 stacks by then.
@@ericdavion9693 well my guld has the luxury of one Prot and 1-2 dps Warriors :D So we get 5 sunders in 2 seconds and roll 30 seconds of shatter behind that (+crystal yield). but everytime i´m in pugs on my alt warrior I wonder whats best for the raid. From my experience lust also gets popped immediately (I think if at least one hunter pushes up the tank there are no threat issues in wotlk). and in this case you sit there hiting sunders for ~8seconds wile you watch your runsestone go to waste plus your first death wish will also roll out quite naked. I´m afraid data from early naxx would not be very accurate wen gamersl run 50-100% armorpen in icc currently. I dont know but having one dps doing 9 000 - 12 000 Damage per second less for the first 8 seconds of the fight, sounds really bad to me (especially if you consider that shattering throw is going to be delayed because of that as well). haha like simon says this debate is as old as time :D and is probably going to be here until those spells are gone
Another consideration for sunder vs. expose: if you have two warriors, they can apply it in 3 GCDs. Also, if you have a prot warrior (I know, imagine), never expose because you are taking 290 damage off each devastate.
@@Ashanthala well than you should tell him hes incorrect because since the % armor debuff is up quicker the dmg is applied faster however the total amnt of raw dmg is the same 5gcds
If there are 2 combat rogues and 3 fury warriors - who should be doing this? I feel like with 3 warriors, the amount of time it takes to get to 5 stacks of Sunder is minimal and maintaining it is extremely easy once its at 5. Versus a rogue who needs to glyph into EA. I don't mind the responsibility but logically, it makes no sense and I just feel like the warrs are being selfish/want to pump. Am I wrong, should I EA or should it be on the 3 fury warriors to share that responsibility?
Our warrior and I opted for this: LDW EA because of add swapping Rotface EA because slimes can create situations where sunder might drop Putricide EA because of transitions Valithria EA because constant adds LK EA because again, transitions Plus the ones you mention in the video. Then whenever we want to have a parse week we just communicate and trade rolls on fights week to week.
the main problem with warrior sundering is 5stacks of sunder and therefore the gcdtime if you have 2warrior thats 3gcd 4.5-7.5sec where you do nothing than autoattacks(heroicstrike) since you dont wanna wait everytime on trinketswap timing that means up to 7.5sec of trinket proccs uptime wasted while the rogue do a sinister and expose on the 2gcd für a 18 sec full 20% exposearmor there is no situation where this doesnt beat warrior sunderstacking and lets be real the warrior is sundering / HP-/Demoshouting since 4ever one combatrogue can take sundering off the warriors platte
You must play warrior. You say rogue just has to do 2 gcds to get a full 20% 18 second expose…. Yet you leave out the fact that we have to completely swap our glyphs around and miss out on our 2 highest dps glyph that majorly affect the rotation by not having them. We have to manage a 16 second slice and dice, a 16 second rupture, and the expose armor, and tricks of the trade on cd. And if any of these buffs/debuff fall off for even a second it’s a massive dps loss. And in most cases, if they fall off, they fall off for much longer than a second. Because we’re energy starved and don’t have the energy to cast a slice and expose to get that debuff back up, while also needing to cast a slice and snd for our own buff we maintain, and also having to make sure your rupture doesn’t fall off the target. Each one costing 65 energy to get up. So yes it sucks for wars to have to click sunder a few times at the beginning, and yes it sucks for 1 of the 1-3 warriors have to click sunder every 30 seconds. But when usually only one combat rogue is being brought, and they’re only being brought for the physical dmg debuff to be applied (because wars want to play the higher dps fury and not apply the debuff as arms) then yeah, pretty sure the warriors should be keeping sunder up.
GIGACHADS play Sub with ToT talent+glyph, keeping expose on the main target all of the time, slowing adds with the Waylay talent, keeping Hemorrhage debuff on the main target, having 30% reduced damage taken from AOE making them less demanding on healing, Cheat Death to bypass lethal mechanics so they can stay on the target, Shadowstep back on the boss after a required sread out, Honor Among Thieves to make everything else smooth AF and Doing enough dps on top of that! You can't top that can you???
I remain convinced that if Sub did even remotely competitive damage it'd be the most popular spec to play. Its rotation is actually reaaaally fun and smooth compared to Assa/Combat.
I regularly use sub and there are ways to make it competitive, im never near the bottom of the meters and my guild are all decent players. I also totally agree with how fun it is, waaaay more so than the other 2 :D@@QPoily
About sunder vs expose, as someone who plays both warrior and rogue, I would say, if there's only 1 warrior in your raid, please just expose, especially when there's downtime or target swap in the boss fight. If there are 2 or more warriors in your raid, it becomes more comparable. I'm talking about player experience, the enjoyment of the game, which sim will not show. For a single warrior to apply 5 stacks of sunder armor, it takes 5 gcds, which is 7.5sec on it's own. If you get unlucky misses on your melee swings at hte start and get rage starved, it can take upto 10sec to just apply this one debuff. During which is the time when everyone's prepoted and have their trinkets proced, and he can't do shattering throw for you before all 5 stacks of sunder. If you are Bloodlusting on pull, it gets even worse. All these buffes won't have access to a very important armor debuff. On the other hand, it's so painful for a single warrior to do sunder. He's prepot is basically compeletely wasted, he's trinket procs are basically useless, he will miss 1/3 of bloodlust. And he still needs to do shattering throw for you after sunder, which makes it even more painful. If there's target swap or downtime in the boss fight, the warrior can't even play the game and will just spend 10sec every time to do sunder. As for a rogue, if you are doing expose armor, you are still playing the game, just with a different rotation. The enjoyment lost for you is much less than a single warrior doing sunder on he's own. If you don't believe that, try make a warrior templet on the PTR and sunder the target dummy on your own. I would say, sunder vs expose, it depends on how many warriors are there in your raid. More warriors make sunder more effective. If there are 3 warriors, definitely make them to sunder. If there's only 1 warrior, please just expose, just for your friend to enjoy the game a little bit more.
Does your hit cap video apply to combat rogue in wotlk? I'm seeing alot of different answers on the internet. Currently, i have 564 rating (17.20%) + 5% from precision.
Thank you! Love the video. So whats the opener in the rupture build? Mut -> Slice&Dice -> Rupture -> Mute-> Evenenom if rupture is active and reapply rupture otherwise? And how many combopoints should we cast rupture with? Is 4 okay?
Regarding SA vs EA it also depends on the amount of Warriors there are in the raid. At some point SA also stops costing any DPS when used during your downtime globals at higher gear levels (due to having an overflow of Rage) which, chances are, you will have within a 30 second time window. And with multiple Warriors in the raid you're going to have multiple open globals within a 30 sec time window for SA to be used.
regardless of the amount of warriors, it still takes 5 globals to stack sunders. if you were to run 3 warriors or more it just makes it less of a grief for all the other physical dps for how long it takes to reach maximum armor penetration
@@noobarium Sure, for the opener it's likely still better for a rogue to do a quick expose armor. However beyond the first Expose Armor SA should be getting stacked up. Multiple fwarrs have enough gaps in their rotation to quickly stack up SA and easily maintain it afterwards (assuming they're not playing OP build or something). Much easier than rogue at least. And mind you if the fury warrior is refreshing SA during their downtime it's practically a costless thing since Rage becomes abundant with more gear. Compare this to Rogue who has to invest a Glyph, Energy, and CBs into maintaining EA. One situation costs nothing, the other costs something.
Too many people watching the meters these days. What happened to just focusing on getting the boss down. I see too many people ignoring mechanics just to get higher DPS. Baffles me.
I just expose armor because I don’t give a fuck anymore. With the expose armor glyph it’s extremely easy to maintain it in your rotation. I also don’t get ‘rewarded’ in any way shape or form.
same lol. my guild has one warrior who refuses to sunder for something something dps efficency, even though I do like 10% more dps than him. They give me the good gear quick though
honestly this is what i started doing in my own guild too. i got way to sick and tired of like "whos gonna sunder whos gonna expose on which boss switch back and forth my glyphs for different bosses" just said screw all that expose every week every boss in guild raid.
The individual dmg bonus they get is excluded as well. The only way to increase their own parse by tricksing is to tricks to the players that can burst out the most amount of dmg within the tricks duration and by doing that killtime will be reduced. Reduced killtime will more often than not end up in them ending the fight with a higher dps and therefore a higher parse. That's why it's a good idea to tricks classes like affli locks who can snapshot and sustain a buffed corruption and then give the remaining to a class with good consistent burst like a feral that simonize is using as example.
for me in my current gear with 6.1GS - if I replace mjolnir with herkuml war token and gem all ARP which gets to ~1000 ARP, its still not an upgrade over Mjolnir +649 arp and rest AP gems. The only trinket i can find to provide a dps upgrade is Winged fang and DBW, DC/DV is comparable if its 258.
How much AP should you have as a combat rogue before starting to gem ARP ? im hit cap and have about 4.2k AP and i cant get out of the 3-5k DPS range and it really sucks .... not sure what im doing wrong followed rotation guides and everything. STILL HAVING PROBLEMS please help
u hit the nail onthe head with tricks, it should have always been counted in logs from phase one because people wouldnt use it because even though it did more raid dps it cucked your own dps where it should have always been added to your own dps as a scalar due to it being the most effective way of playing your class
While the tricks of the trade argument is true, the real issue is that 90% of people use these dps rankings to justify why their class should receive more loot. Luckily rogues can add that tricks dps to the raid while completely naked!
for the Attack power vs armor pen debate, I found it was around -5dps for each ARP gem before 6100gs. at 6100gs/600 natural ARP i find it is no loss to go for ARP.
Using GS as a benchmark isn’t really useful here, as that number can be achieved with a very large spread in your actual stats which is what impacts AP vs ArP
@@MattZeeXWas going to say the same thing, ARP become advantageous to me over AP at around 5980GS. Perhaps it was because my last upgrade at that point were my weapons? Or that I am a Troll? Or more likely it's just a combination of my unique set of circumstances, as his were.
Simon, what do you think about Herkuml War Token in a Assa Rogue? I really dont know what to buy with my next frost emblems, im already have 4 pieces and the belt of frost, and normaly i just pug 25 and play 10man with my friends, thinking about the posibilities of get the bis trinkets
I played it on the private server comet + herkuml. It was pretty good dps. That 2 work togheter pretty good from what i’ve experienced. It was pretty good on combat too when i simed it and swapped either with wfs it was about same dps
@@dusanradenovic9605 Ty for data! The 10 stack of the buff its permanent while you are hiting? Or once you hit the 10 stacks gets a cap and dissapear and get internal cd?
You want poison hit cap, which is 17%. With the 3% debuff from shadow/boomkin and 5% from talents, you need 9% on your character sheet. (8% with a Draenei)
My ArP is well over soft cap, probably close to 900+ fully gemmed for it. I regemmed for attack power to soft cap was able to sim +70dps but now im wondering if I should fully gem for ArP and go for Herkumi War Token to replace my Runestone. Hm, decisions.
Warcraft logs making a decision which encourages raiders to forego raid impact contributions in favor of juicing their personal numbers? Never heard that one before...
I swear the people who run that site are completely out of touch with high end raid environments. They also just in general do a shit job with the data available to them. Wclogs could easily implement a more in depth filtering system to compare your performance only with similar raid environments (controlling for available buffs, kill times, etc with simple data filters)
the whiners about expose and sunder would likely notice more dps difference in optimising their movement and rotation than whether or not they pressed sunder or expose. I was the expose rogue in my tbc guild and I regularly beat our warglaive rogue becasue i'm just better than he was at maximizing blade flurry and on target time.
@@noobarium well its not that black and white. Arms warrior has a unique dmg profile that can be extremly good in some fights. for example they have decent execute dmg, they dont get as many stacks on syndra and with ss stacking + Bladestorm they have one of, if not the best Cleave/Aoe burst in the game (very useful for prof and lk) Combine that with the HP shout, Shatter, trauma and blood frenzy (+4%physical dmg) and you have a solid spec for some situations.
Ive been saying that about tricks on wlogs since phase 2, its just dumb that an ability that requieres energy and is basically an ofensive tool on the rogue's rotation is not shown on the logs, the side effect of that is that some rogues just dont use tricks untill they get their t10 2set because until then it ends up beeing a personal dps loss.
I find his arguments a bit flawed though. It seems very much like someone just arguing their cause filled with bias. Where do we draw the line with damage coming from buffs? He argues that stackable, personal buffs should be included, but should then all the damage coming from innervate mana, all the damage caused by a CR'ed or SS'ed target or the extra damage caused by focus magic / PI also count? They are all buffs that you get more of the more members of that specific class you add. While I do find it a bit weird that Unholy Frenzy isn't treated the same as TotT, it's still just the line wcl sets, and too many takes the numbers they put on someone's performance way too seriously.
@@Paal2005 In do feel like an ability that provides a damage buff and at the same time is stackable like simonize said should be added to the person casting it, its basically like using any other ofensive ability and is part of the rotation of the caster. If you stack some rogues you get more and more tricks damage and thats a big difference with any other buff, you wouldnt count the 3% critical hit you get from Assa rogues or the 4% physical damage buff you get from combat cause they are regular buffs but tricks works in a ver different way and provides damage in an unique way as well.
Tricks should 100% count. It was a silly decision to make in the first place and when it was annouced I was committed to not using tricks except once on pull. Warlocks ask for tricks I tell them to take it up with WCL. Now that T10 is out and with the set bonus I'm back to using it, but the move to not count it only encouraged degen, non optimal play. Now they have a chance to revert and include ToT damage, they really should. Then I'd consider using the glyph, which is the strongest glyph by far, yet because it doesn't count towards rankings, it will sit unused while I greed for glyphs that will increase my parse.
I feel like sunder vs expose we should meet in the middle. rogue doing 2cp expose at the beginning and warrior doing the rest. Doing sunder at your first gcds sucks, but squezing it in your rotation isnt even a dps loss, they have enough free gcds, especially when you start playing with more than one fury. Lk, sindra, council or 10mans I can totally see the use of expose glyph.
for the assa rupture build, i take out 2 points in fleet footed and put that into blood spatter, can work too and how ive been getting 99 parses so far in ICC but u lose that little bit of movement speed, up to u !
I love how yellow boys just arguing that the sim is "not applicable for all raids" now when sim is showing they should expose most of the fights. It's the same thing they do in TBC: they made up all the bullshit for rogue to take glaives and then when sunwell came out, they were just bad. Let's face it yellow boys: rogue is not stackable in this phase, and the reason why a raid brings you is because of the debuff you bring and expose armor lol.
No guild is running 3 warriors. You guys dont want to tricks, you guys dont want to expose and your dps from here on out is mid. Lucky you even have a spot.
The tricks dmg copium lol Rogues were great all expansion and they are fine now. Sure once classes get closer to bis rogues will fall behind even more but they're still useful
yeah maybe they shouldn't count dmg from serpent sting for hunters just cause ya know, screw hunters. or maybe they should just pick whirlwind from warriors and say the dmg dealt by this ability doesn't count on our damage rankings website. makes total sense.
@@SimonizeShow Unholy Frenzy counts towards Blood DK DPS despite being a similar ability to Tricks. Kind of unfair. If WCL are gonna do that, Tricks should 100% count for rogue DPS as well.
@@astralfields they should make it to where tricks only registers on wcl when its rogue to rogue to give a more realistic damage ranking for how good rogues were back in og wrath
@@SimonizeShow You're depending on another class to do dmg for you. How do you add that to WCL's without punishing rogue players with worse tricks targets?
Who is surprised though that the literal rat class who refuses to press tricks just cause it doesn’t count on logs doesn’t want to take one for the team
SimonizeShow TV: ruclips.net/channel/UC3ufBaw0vi9wyfypnVkB5rA
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/simonizeshow
Discord: discord.gg/pujEA9mpYr
If that discord link doesn't work, try disabling any pop-up or ad blocker you have, or entering the address manually in the discord app.
You can find all the UI elements used and lots of other information about rogues on my discord.
0:00 Intro
0:43 Assassination + Rupture Builds
2:38 WarcraftLogs Rant
5:51 When to Gem Armor Penetration as Combat?
9:28 Sunder vs Expose
Rogue Tips and Tricks in ICC: ruclips.net/video/i31KTocCynM/видео.html
Combat Rogue ICC Gearing Guide: ruclips.net/video/lh4dQ-NqU8k/видео.html
Assassination Rogue ICC Gearing Guide: ruclips.net/video/zKOCDId1ks0/видео.html
Expose Armor vs Sunder Armor Simulator Comparison: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1tbmkD2uqCFX0AJD7yjYEYwxT_PSoR3UjwFj08cxRyzY/htmlview
To me the debate of sunder vs expose is simple. A. Am I playing my warrior this week? Then the rogues are exposing. Am I playing my rogue this week? Then the warriors are sundering. EZ clap.
an all time rant and why we stan Simon. a no nonsense hat in this one too, s tier video
The part that’s strange to me is they will add unholy frenzy damage to a blood deathknights damage done even though it used to be separated out like tricks…
They let blood dps have their copium. they still suck.
this
Makes sense to me. If you're not going to separate ToT damage from the Rogue's it basically means two things:
1. Rogues will have a much harder time to parse unless there's an affliction warlock in the group since ToT's value on affli's Corruption is MASSIVE (looking at WCL logs it's easily between 400-600 DPS on a well-geared and skilled warlock)
2. If there's two Rogues in the group and only 1 affli lock it's basically guaranteed that you won't be able to parse as the off-rogue not ToTing the affli lock.
And with affli lock being less valuable in tier 10 than they were in previous tiers, it's more likely for them to not really be in the raid anymore. Both of the above factors combined create a degenerate game-state where parsing as a Rogue becomes much more difficult.
Many of the rules that WCL puts in place is to dissuade and not promote extreme degenerate or annoying gameplay from happening. Unholy Frenzy being combined with a BDK's damage profile doesn't really promote any kind of degenerate gameplay simply because for the most part catering to the lowest DPS Tank spec's parse is extreme grief to the point where even the most tryhard won't bother with it.
Another factor to take into consideration beyond being reliant on an affli lock to parse as a rogue if ToT was to be baked into your parse on WCL is that you're also reliant on having a GOOD GEARED player to use your ToT on. So now it's an added layer of compounding factors that could prevent a Rogue from getting higher parses.
So unless you want to be reliant on having a good geared and skilled affli lock in your raid in order to parse well, I wouldn't want to have ToT be taken into consideration for parsing. Especially with affli locks generally falling out of favor this tier.
Also as a final note, if ToT were to be taken into consideration for Rogues you'd also have to start taking into consideration stuff like Demonic Pact. But now you're reaching a degenerate point in time where it just starts getting really unnecessarily confusing. Easier to simply have BDKs as an exception considering their DPS as a Tank is absolute trash and, well, they're a Tank. I do agree that when it comes to the overall DPS tier list on WCL it should be included, though.
Same thing could be said about feral not being there for unholy frenzy. I don't think it even matters, since majority of 25m raids will have atleast 1 affli lock. The "problem" comes from having multiple affli locks and rogue tricksing them all and always being number 1. @@QPoily
@@sposauc I already covered BDKs in the exact comment you replied to, though.
But to repeat myself: BDK parsing isn't as big of a deal as Rogue parsing is:
1. They're a Tank. Tank parsing is already a joke and there's going to be fewer BDKs actually going for parses as there will be Rogue players. Adding Unholy Frenzy to a BDK's parse is less of an issue as it would be for Rogues due to role difference and actual amount of players affected.
2. They're already bottom barrel DPS out of all the Tank DPS even WITH Unholy Frenzy counting towards their own DPS done. Letting Unholy Frenzy count towards their parse is more so a mercy change than anything else.
Regarding your claim that every 25m will have an affli lock I'm not so sure about that. Granted I'm basing this off of my own experiences playing Warmane but on Warmane we barely ever had affli locks in our LoD runs. They're a caster DPS which brings no raidbuffs and if you have a DPS slot left and have all raidbuffs covered; you might as well bring the highest DPS, which in Warmane's case was Fire Mage and in Classic's case is a soft tie between Feral/Fwarr/Fire mage.
Most likely similar to Warmane Fire mages will be stacked before opting to specifically take an affli lock. Fire mages simply have much stronger opener burst which with kill-times going down as players get more gear and as the 30% buff starts ramping up is much more valuable. Not only that, Fire mages also have a wider range of mechanics they can ignore/cheese in ICC which further bumps up their potency in ICC specifically.
So I'm not so certain that you'll remain seeing at least 1 affli lock in every 25 man raid like you did pre-ICC. Especially since affli locks in ICC are going to be asked to play demo more with the potency of affli locks going down and the raid-DPS potency of demo going down. I figure many warlocks are either going to reroll if they don't enjoy playing demo, or they'll just full gear demo and have affli as an OS just in case.
@5:20 I want Shattering Throw dmg added to my personal dps as well!
@13:00 do they take into account the dps loss of other physicals in the raid? a single war needs about 7.5 seconds to get 5 stacks of sunder on to the boss (assuming he doesnt press anything else)
this is usualy the time were Lust and most proc trinkets are active. for a warrior with runestone this means he gets basicly no value from his first procs.
if the rog uses a litle expose at the start the warrior can throw his shatter instand, so every physical will get a great benefit!
After that the rog could drop the expose and the warrior will pull it back up
dropping the debuff sounds very bad, but not having sunders or expose in the first 10 seconds of the fight (usually for physicals the phase were they deal the most dps) sounds even worse to me
I believe this is the best possible scenario. Rogues exposing on the opener and warriors sundering after. Expose will drop 14seconds into the fight or so (because u need 2 gcds to apply it) and that's ample time for warriors to do their burst etc AND apply sunders after that.
He did the math in early Naxx and it turned out not to really be the case. I do not remember his specifics but from what I understand:
Firstly, a rogue wouldn't be able to get EA up for about 2-3 seconds as we need at least one combo point to use it. In that time there would have been a stack or two of Sunder up. To then have the armor debuff drop off completely at any point in the fight when people are already into their rotations and slowly build up over 7.5 seconds results in a large DPS loss. This would all be far more feasible if the game would let you start Sunder stacks while EA is up but unfortunately you have to wait for it to drop off completely before you can begin to reapply an armor debuff.
Also, I don't know about your guild, but for bosses where we lust from the start, we typically wait until 4-5 seconds into a pull before lust to give the tank a couple GCDs to establish threat and for everyone to get into their positions. Sunder armor is already at 3-4 stacks by then.
@@ericdavion9693 well my guld has the luxury of one Prot and 1-2 dps Warriors :D
So we get 5 sunders in 2 seconds and roll 30 seconds of shatter behind that (+crystal yield).
but everytime i´m in pugs on my alt warrior I wonder whats best for the raid.
From my experience lust also gets popped immediately (I think if at least one hunter pushes up the tank there are no threat issues in wotlk). and in this case you sit there hiting sunders for ~8seconds wile you watch your runsestone go to waste plus your first death wish will also roll out quite naked.
I´m afraid data from early naxx would not be very accurate wen gamersl run 50-100% armorpen in icc currently.
I dont know but having one dps doing
9 000 - 12 000 Damage per second less for the first 8 seconds of the fight, sounds really bad to me (especially if you consider that shattering throw is going to be delayed because of that as well).
haha like simon says this debate is as old as time :D and is probably going to be here until those spells are gone
you can see the link the spreadsheet in the video description
Another consideration for sunder vs. expose: if you have two warriors, they can apply it in 3 GCDs. Also, if you have a prot warrior (I know, imagine), never expose because you are taking 290 damage off each devastate.
the prot warrior dream
@@Ashanthala well than you should tell him hes incorrect because since the % armor debuff is up quicker the dmg is applied faster however the total amnt of raw dmg is the same 5gcds
If there are 2 combat rogues and 3 fury warriors - who should be doing this? I feel like with 3 warriors, the amount of time it takes to get to 5 stacks of Sunder is minimal and maintaining it is extremely easy once its at 5. Versus a rogue who needs to glyph into EA. I don't mind the responsibility but logically, it makes no sense and I just feel like the warrs are being selfish/want to pump. Am I wrong, should I EA or should it be on the 3 fury warriors to share that responsibility?
Our warrior and I opted for this:
LDW EA because of add swapping
Rotface EA because slimes can create situations where sunder might drop
Putricide EA because of transitions
Valithria EA because constant adds
LK EA because again, transitions
Plus the ones you mention in the video.
Then whenever we want to have a parse week we just communicate and trade rolls on fights week to week.
What situation could u not keep up sunder on rotface lol
the main problem with warrior sundering is 5stacks of sunder and therefore the gcdtime
if you have 2warrior thats 3gcd
4.5-7.5sec where you do nothing than autoattacks(heroicstrike)
since you dont wanna wait everytime on trinketswap timing
that means up to 7.5sec of trinket proccs uptime wasted
while the rogue do a sinister and expose on the 2gcd für a 18 sec full 20% exposearmor
there is no situation where this doesnt beat warrior sunderstacking
and lets be real the warrior is sundering / HP-/Demoshouting since 4ever one combatrogue can take sundering off the warriors platte
You must play warrior.
You say rogue just has to do 2 gcds to get a full 20% 18 second expose…. Yet you leave out the fact that we have to completely swap our glyphs around and miss out on our 2 highest dps glyph that majorly affect the rotation by not having them. We have to manage a 16 second slice and dice, a 16 second rupture, and the expose armor, and tricks of the trade on cd. And if any of these buffs/debuff fall off for even a second it’s a massive dps loss. And in most cases, if they fall off, they fall off for much longer than a second. Because we’re energy starved and don’t have the energy to cast a slice and expose to get that debuff back up, while also needing to cast a slice and snd for our own buff we maintain, and also having to make sure your rupture doesn’t fall off the target. Each one costing 65 energy to get up.
So yes it sucks for wars to have to click sunder a few times at the beginning, and yes it sucks for 1 of the 1-3 warriors have to click sunder every 30 seconds. But when usually only one combat rogue is being brought, and they’re only being brought for the physical dmg debuff to be applied (because wars want to play the higher dps fury and not apply the debuff as arms) then yeah, pretty sure the warriors should be keeping sunder up.
I agree; add shatter bonus damage to warriors in logs kthx
GIGACHADS play Sub with ToT talent+glyph, keeping expose on the main target all of the time, slowing adds with the Waylay talent, keeping Hemorrhage debuff on the main target, having 30% reduced damage taken from AOE making them less demanding on healing, Cheat Death to bypass lethal mechanics so they can stay on the target, Shadowstep back on the boss after a required sread out, Honor Among Thieves to make everything else smooth AF and Doing enough dps on top of that! You can't top that can you???
considering topping that requires about 7k dps you probly can yes
I remain convinced that if Sub did even remotely competitive damage it'd be the most popular spec to play. Its rotation is actually reaaaally fun and smooth compared to Assa/Combat.
I regularly use sub and there are ways to make it competitive, im never near the bottom of the meters and my guild are all decent players. I also totally agree with how fun it is, waaaay more so than the other 2 :D@@QPoily
its so fun man, if only it did good dps@@QPoily
its not bad, but the other specs are just much better unfortunately. but yeah its totally super fun.@@A3BGS
Blood dk gets hysteria contribution to theyer own dps
JUSTICE FOR TRIX!
About sunder vs expose, as someone who plays both warrior and rogue, I would say, if there's only 1 warrior in your raid, please just expose, especially when there's downtime or target swap in the boss fight. If there are 2 or more warriors in your raid, it becomes more comparable. I'm talking about player experience, the enjoyment of the game, which sim will not show.
For a single warrior to apply 5 stacks of sunder armor, it takes 5 gcds, which is 7.5sec on it's own. If you get unlucky misses on your melee swings at hte start and get rage starved, it can take upto 10sec to just apply this one debuff. During which is the time when everyone's prepoted and have their trinkets proced, and he can't do shattering throw for you before all 5 stacks of sunder. If you are Bloodlusting on pull, it gets even worse. All these buffes won't have access to a very important armor debuff.
On the other hand, it's so painful for a single warrior to do sunder. He's prepot is basically compeletely wasted, he's trinket procs are basically useless, he will miss 1/3 of bloodlust. And he still needs to do shattering throw for you after sunder, which makes it even more painful. If there's target swap or downtime in the boss fight, the warrior can't even play the game and will just spend 10sec every time to do sunder.
As for a rogue, if you are doing expose armor, you are still playing the game, just with a different rotation. The enjoyment lost for you is much less than a single warrior doing sunder on he's own. If you don't believe that, try make a warrior templet on the PTR and sunder the target dummy on your own.
I would say, sunder vs expose, it depends on how many warriors are there in your raid. More warriors make sunder more effective. If there are 3 warriors, definitely make them to sunder. If there's only 1 warrior, please just expose, just for your friend to enjoy the game a little bit more.
Imagine if warriors learned to swap their trinkets and delay their opener for 7.5 seconds
Does your hit cap video apply to combat rogue in wotlk? I'm seeing alot of different answers on the internet. Currently, i have 564 rating (17.20%) + 5% from precision.
I don’t understand why you’d use rupture over eviscerate. Eviscerate deals nearly 1k more damage and it’s all at once instead of over time
Thank you! Love the video. So whats the opener in the rupture build? Mut -> Slice&Dice -> Rupture -> Mute-> Evenenom if rupture is active and reapply rupture otherwise? And how many combopoints should we cast rupture with? Is 4 okay?
Would like to know aswel.
4+ cp, you play the spec the same way as normal assa but when you would be pressing envenom you press rupture if it is not on the target at the moment
Love the video man. What are you using to sim your gear ? I can't find any for wotlk
Any plans to make a Season of Discovery video? I would love to hear your thoughts
Regarding SA vs EA it also depends on the amount of Warriors there are in the raid. At some point SA also stops costing any DPS when used during your downtime globals at higher gear levels (due to having an overflow of Rage) which, chances are, you will have within a 30 second time window. And with multiple Warriors in the raid you're going to have multiple open globals within a 30 sec time window for SA to be used.
regardless of the amount of warriors, it still takes 5 globals to stack sunders. if you were to run 3 warriors or more it just makes it less of a grief for all the other physical dps for how long it takes to reach maximum armor penetration
@@noobarium Sure, for the opener it's likely still better for a rogue to do a quick expose armor. However beyond the first Expose Armor SA should be getting stacked up. Multiple fwarrs have enough gaps in their rotation to quickly stack up SA and easily maintain it afterwards (assuming they're not playing OP build or something). Much easier than rogue at least.
And mind you if the fury warrior is refreshing SA during their downtime it's practically a costless thing since Rage becomes abundant with more gear. Compare this to Rogue who has to invest a Glyph, Energy, and CBs into maintaining EA. One situation costs nothing, the other costs something.
Too many people watching the meters these days. What happened to just focusing on getting the boss down. I see too many people ignoring mechanics just to get higher DPS. Baffles me.
We got the bosses down in 2010. This time around is for the parses.
for our raids the warr sunders Deathbringer/Rotface/Fester/Queen then i expose the rest. Im happy having a split over an argument
preach brother
I just expose armor because I don’t give a fuck anymore. With the expose armor glyph it’s extremely easy to maintain it in your rotation. I also don’t get ‘rewarded’ in any way shape or form.
same lol. my guild has one warrior who refuses to sunder for something something dps efficency, even though I do like 10% more dps than him. They give me the good gear quick though
honestly this is what i started doing in my own guild too. i got way to sick and tired of like "whos gonna sunder whos gonna expose on which boss switch back and forth my glyphs for different bosses" just said screw all that expose every week every boss in guild raid.
[shark tank guy taking notes]
update: I got gutbuster and another pen item from hero 10man now im at 1340. 550 dps increase off 2 items that were the same item level 264!
The rogues in my guild tricks each other exclusively. Thanks WCL
The individual dmg bonus they get is excluded as well. The only way to increase their own parse by tricksing is to tricks to the players that can burst out the most amount of dmg within the tricks duration and by doing that killtime will be reduced. Reduced killtime will more often than not end up in them ending the fight with a higher dps and therefore a higher parse. That's why it's a good idea to tricks classes like affli locks who can snapshot and sustain a buffed corruption and then give the remaining to a class with good consistent burst like a feral that simonize is using as example.
always great videos man. the effort you put in is great. Appreciate it
for me in my current gear with 6.1GS - if I replace mjolnir with herkuml war token and gem all ARP which gets to ~1000 ARP, its still not an upgrade over Mjolnir +649 arp and rest AP gems. The only trinket i can find to provide a dps upgrade is Winged fang and DBW, DC/DV is comparable if its 258.
Did you consider brown is the color of poo?
after reading this comment section i remembered that brown is the color of poo, yes.
How much AP should you have as a combat rogue before starting to gem ARP ? im hit cap and have about 4.2k AP and i cant get out of the 3-5k DPS range and it really sucks .... not sure what im doing wrong followed rotation guides and everything. STILL HAVING PROBLEMS please help
u hit the nail onthe head with tricks, it should have always been counted in logs from phase one because people wouldnt use it because even though it did more raid dps it cucked your own dps where it should have always been added to your own dps as a scalar due to it being the most effective way of playing your class
I'm not really sure why they don't just use the rdps formula from fflogs for stuff like tricks, unholy frenzy, etc
While the tricks of the trade argument is true, the real issue is that 90% of people use these dps rankings to justify why their class should receive more loot. Luckily rogues can add that tricks dps to the raid while completely naked!
for the Attack power vs armor pen debate, I found it was around -5dps for each ARP gem before 6100gs. at 6100gs/600 natural ARP i find it is no loss to go for ARP.
Using GS as a benchmark isn’t really useful here, as that number can be achieved with a very large spread in your actual stats which is what impacts AP vs ArP
@@MattZeeXWas going to say the same thing, ARP become advantageous to me over AP at around 5980GS. Perhaps it was because my last upgrade at that point were my weapons? Or that I am a Troll? Or more likely it's just a combination of my unique set of circumstances, as his were.
For rupture spec in case I have 4 combo point and rupture is finish i refresh it with 4 combo point?
Does this mean our first finisher after HfB and SnD are up is always Rupture?
Simon, what do you think about Herkuml War Token in a Assa Rogue? I really dont know what to buy with my next frost emblems, im already have 4 pieces and the belt of frost, and normaly i just pug 25 and play 10man with my friends, thinking about the posibilities of get the bis trinkets
I played it on the private server comet + herkuml. It was pretty good dps. That 2 work togheter pretty good from what i’ve experienced. It was pretty good on combat too when i simed it and swapped either with wfs it was about same dps
@@dusanradenovic9605 Ty for data! The 10 stack of the buff its permanent while you are hiting? Or once you hit the 10 stacks gets a cap and dissapear and get internal cd?
@@marcosbravo7195 herkumi has no icd,and is 100% procc chance. it was extremely popular trinket even in retail wrath because of this
What should be hit rating for combat rogue? Some guides say %12, some guides say %8...
You want poison hit cap, which is 17%. With the 3% debuff from shadow/boomkin and 5% from talents, you need 9% on your character sheet. (8% with a Draenei)
My ArP is well over soft cap, probably close to 900+ fully gemmed for it. I regemmed for attack power to soft cap was able to sim +70dps but now im wondering if I should fully gem for ArP and go for Herkumi War Token to replace my Runestone. Hm, decisions.
In my guild we just do sunder vs expose like this. 1 waarrior I EA as a crogue, 2 warriors or more, warriors do it
rogues have been complaining about tricks of the trade in the warcraftlogs discord since p1, but no criticism is accepted there...
I switched to armor pen after 4 items and i have 1053 armor pen raw. It feels about even with attack power atm. My MH is hero 264 fistwep OH dagger
Warcraft logs making a decision which encourages raiders to forego raid impact contributions in favor of juicing their personal numbers? Never heard that one before...
I swear the people who run that site are completely out of touch with high end raid environments. They also just in general do a shit job with the data available to them. Wclogs could easily implement a more in depth filtering system to compare your performance only with similar raid environments (controlling for available buffs, kill times, etc with simple data filters)
yeah this is just another chapter in the book of reasons why that website is a joke
9:28 just run a prot warrior with glyph for devastate 4Head.
Always sunder
The only time sundering is better than expose is if you have 3 warriors.
the whiners about expose and sunder would likely notice more dps difference in optimising their movement and rotation than whether or not they pressed sunder or expose. I was the expose rogue in my tbc guild and I regularly beat our warglaive rogue becasue i'm just better than he was at maximizing blade flurry and on target time.
yeah... its just a age-old debate of people not wanting to press sunder and not wanting to press expose.
Arms Warrior also brings the bleed increase like feral for the rupture assa build
technically true, yes
nobody brings an arms warrior to raid
@@noobarium well its not that black and white.
Arms warrior has a unique dmg profile that can be extremly good in some fights.
for example they have decent execute dmg, they dont get as many stacks on syndra and
with ss stacking + Bladestorm they have one of, if not the best Cleave/Aoe burst in the game (very useful for prof and lk)
Combine that with the HP shout, Shatter, trauma and blood frenzy (+4%physical dmg) and you have a solid spec for some situations.
Ive been saying that about tricks on wlogs since phase 2, its just dumb that an ability that requieres energy and is basically an ofensive tool on the rogue's rotation is not shown on the logs, the side effect of that is that some rogues just dont use tricks untill they get their t10 2set because until then it ends up beeing a personal dps loss.
I find his arguments a bit flawed though. It seems very much like someone just arguing their cause filled with bias. Where do we draw the line with damage coming from buffs? He argues that stackable, personal buffs should be included, but should then all the damage coming from innervate mana, all the damage caused by a CR'ed or SS'ed target or the extra damage caused by focus magic / PI also count? They are all buffs that you get more of the more members of that specific class you add. While I do find it a bit weird that Unholy Frenzy isn't treated the same as TotT, it's still just the line wcl sets, and too many takes the numbers they put on someone's performance way too seriously.
@@Paal2005 In do feel like an ability that provides a damage buff and at the same time is stackable like simonize said should be added to the person casting it, its basically like using any other ofensive ability and is part of the rotation of the caster. If you stack some rogues you get more and more tricks damage and thats a big difference with any other buff, you wouldnt count the 3% critical hit you get from Assa rogues or the 4% physical damage buff you get from combat cause they are regular buffs but tricks works in a ver different way and provides damage in an unique way as well.
Tricks should 100% count. It was a silly decision to make in the first place and when it was annouced I was committed to not using tricks except once on pull. Warlocks ask for tricks I tell them to take it up with WCL. Now that T10 is out and with the set bonus I'm back to using it, but the move to not count it only encouraged degen, non optimal play. Now they have a chance to revert and include ToT damage, they really should. Then I'd consider using the glyph, which is the strongest glyph by far, yet because it doesn't count towards rankings, it will sit unused while I greed for glyphs that will increase my parse.
do NOT ask t his guy to share festergut spore to the raid lmfao
We may learn that rogue sim is further off than the hunter one 😂
Hi!
I feel like sunder vs expose we should meet in the middle. rogue doing 2cp expose at the beginning and warrior doing the rest. Doing sunder at your first gcds sucks, but squezing it in your rotation isnt even a dps loss, they have enough free gcds, especially when you start playing with more than one fury. Lk, sindra, council or 10mans I can totally see the use of expose glyph.
No that’s just overall worse
You can't take the DPS from ONE boss and compare that to "All bosses" damage, and say you'd be gapping. That's not how it works.
for the assa rupture build, i take out 2 points in fleet footed and put that into blood spatter, can work too and how ive been getting 99 parses so far in ICC but u lose that little bit of movement speed, up to u !
this will lose you damage any time there is some form of movement and during trash of the entire raid, a very very bad option to swap out
99 parse just means hes ina good guild lmfao@@quinngerrard7703
I would 0% recommend anyone taking points out of fleet footed
I love how yellow boys just arguing that the sim is "not applicable for all raids" now when sim is showing they should expose most of the fights. It's the same thing they do in TBC: they made up all the bullshit for rogue to take glaives and then when sunwell came out, they were just bad. Let's face it yellow boys: rogue is not stackable in this phase, and the reason why a raid brings you is because of the debuff you bring and expose armor lol.
They should factor in the raid dps benefits of all class buffs too then. That would put rogues way down 😂
*** warcraft logs also doesnt take into account the dps loss from bresing the rogues
hey man have a spreadsheet showing best glyphs for combat per boss in icc?
No guild is running 3 warriors. You guys dont want to tricks, you guys dont want to expose and your dps from here on out is mid. Lucky you even have a spot.
This gotta be the most brain dead comment I’ve seen. Rogues are wanting to expose due to the energy gain you get back from tricksing.
The tricks dmg copium lol Rogues were great all expansion and they are fine now. Sure once classes get closer to bis rogues will fall behind even more but they're still useful
yeah maybe they shouldn't count dmg from serpent sting for hunters just cause ya know, screw hunters. or maybe they should just pick whirlwind from warriors and say the dmg dealt by this ability doesn't count on our damage rankings website. makes total sense.
@@SimonizeShow Unholy Frenzy counts towards Blood DK DPS despite being a similar ability to Tricks. Kind of unfair. If WCL are gonna do that, Tricks should 100% count for rogue DPS as well.
@@astralfields they should make it to where tricks only registers on wcl when its rogue to rogue to give a more realistic damage ranking for how good rogues were back in og wrath
@@SimonizeShow You're depending on another class to do dmg for you. How do you add that to WCL's without punishing rogue players with worse tricks targets?
@@sNNNNNable How is that different than Unholy Frenzy?
SA vs EA After sundering naxx ulduar togc. Rogues are bitching about ea in icc. Boo hoo. Do your job without complaining. We did for 3 phases.
No
Who is surprised though that the literal rat class who refuses to press tricks just cause it doesn’t count on logs doesn’t want to take one for the team
@Taurus4926 lol rogues will be rogues. Getting dbw prio in my raid too and they still not happy.
@@icedearthrules got dbw already and first prio on TAJ. Those brown bars can eat it.
We did for the entirety of TBC. Wrath was the warrior's turn.