I do love those mysteries that we can never have the answers to. Perhaps they had a taboo against burning humans and animals together, but used the same platform for two distinct purposes, each with their own ceremony, in the same way that we would use a church ground for a burial or a wedding, but probably not both at the same time! On the other hand, perhaps it was an absolute necessity to burn a persons body along with some animal remains, in order that they'd have something to eat, or some livestock to farm, once they got to the great beyond. We will never know, but it's fun to imagine!
I always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty I pray to God to give you a lot of beautiful days and I hope God bless you to have a great day, I'm Williams by name from Arizona phonex and you where are you from?
Watching this again and it's still excellent. Dr. Martin Smith is very impressive - I'm also delighted to find a doctor of anthropology with a back history in nursing, quoting Hobbes and Rousseau.
always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty I pray to God to give you a lot of beautiful days and I hope God bless you to have a great day, I'm Williams by name from Arizona phonex and you where are you from...?
Thank you, Robert and Michael for this amazing interview with Martin, whose views I can respect as someone who has LIVED a life before turning to academia. J. R. R. Tolkien, was utterly traumatised by "The Great War": the war to end all wars... CS Lewis too. Now the mad man, Putin, is unleashing his power.... Humans are human, and men are men.
@1:07:39 , re so many injuries : during the Depression (late 2008-2012 ;) ) I had a 2nd job at a printing company. We printed a lot of small town weekly or monthly newspapers. Most of them had a "100 Years Ago Today In the [XXX Reporter] " (&/or 50 &/or 150yrs ago) section. Almost every edition contained reports of somebody(s) seriously hurting themselves , or a helper or a bystander, with an axe. I wonder how many of those wounds found on excavated prehistoric bones were self-inflicted accidents?
I am thrilled by the crematory site in Italy & the human bone pendent from Russia. Today’s society place so much importance on the body of the dead being preserved/memorialized, I believe in the past a body was just that. I think the essence of the individual was what they may have been celebrating in ancient burials. I also suspect there were belief’s of a reincarnation & some practices may have been to release the essence from the physical form & other’s to possibly delay that release. I also believe animals were considered in the same regard, as having an essence, and the bone’s may be representing traits that the living wished to connect to. Similar to today’s attachment but far less emotionally driven.
Indeed. I find it very strange that the researcher jumped to his assumption. The discovery of folks keeping bones around for generations in ancient turkey at sites I can't spell led to archeologists thinking their was ancestor worship and skull cults. Why such a different view of the north European find?
I always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty I pray to God to give you a lot of beautiful days and I hope God bless you to have a great day, I'm Williams by name from Arizona phonex and you where are you from?
I am reminded of a paper i read about a baboon group that suffered a devastating setback. Almost all the males ended up dying. So they lost that male line of intergenerational culture and so they developed a much more nonviolent and cooperative group dynamic. But whats even more interesting is that this cultural shift started to have a passifying affect on other surrounding baboon groups as well.
When I first started in archaeology many years ago, I was lucky enough to work with a woman who wore a very interesting bracelet. It looked like wooden beads on a metal wire which was probably silver. Looking closer the beads turned out to be bones, and some of them were clearly really old. She said each one was a segment from a finger - think she said ring finger - of her female ancestors. They were certainly the right shape and size, as well a graduating in age and wear, so I've no reason to doubt it. Basically, if it can happen now, there was no reason for our ancestors not to keep small parts of their family members with them as jewellery or stitched to garments. The cremains are intriguing, though. I wonder if was a cremated version of a "sky burial". I've no idea about the layout of the site, or it's position in its surroundings, but I wonder how open it may have been to the environment. Could the animal bones have been from creatures sacrificed as part of funerary rituals, or food offerings for the afterlife? So many questions with so many possible answers. I'm looking forward the results of research.
Late to the party but once again I’ve thoroughly enjoyed listening to all of you talk about our , I am convinced, inherent violence and wars in general , thanks 😊 All the best Jules
You could spend a couple hours with Martin and it would be a great show. Not sure if you Gentlemen are interested in linguistics at all, Dr. Jackson Crawford has a channel on old Norse and related subjects. Not nearly as prehistoric as many of your subjects. Your program as always was very entertaining and educational. Stay safe and healthy on your travels.
Your thumbnail image is a reconstruction of the Tollense Valley battle by Jose Daniel Cabrera. It first appeared as an article illustration in the Spanish magazine "Muy Interesante".
Thank you. I did try to find out who the artist was but there didn't seem to be any reference in the sources. I'll credit him in the details. Michael 😊
Just a note on 'receipt' versus 'recipe' - That wasn't a translation error but an old usage of the word 'receipt.' It turns up all the time in cook books more than 200 years old.
Very curious thing with the Chinese metallurgy. I have been trying to learn about our current major religions and wonder if there may be some connections to the word Jin/ginn 🤔
Watching the live shots of the Queen's coffin being driven through Scotland, I thought I saw them drive by a mound and circle formation. Immediately thought of TPHG and wished you both were doing the commentary!
A friend was an Anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institute who studied the Canella Indians of the Amazon for decades. His monograph on them states that they had at one time been a war like tribe, but changed to a peaceful one by trading war for an emphasis on sex. They trade in bawdy joking, etc, but do have certain taboos on who can sleep with whom based on family relationships. His name is William Crocker.
On the decrease in violence over the past centuries: I think it's a lot more to do with the increasing depth and breadth of cultural institutions for addressing differences between people: judicial systems, political bodies at all scales from homeowners associations on up to the United Nations, bodies for trade regulation, businesses small and large who have more to gain from peaceful solutions than from getting out the axes and hacking the other company's people to bits. And when those institutions are weak, you get failed states like Somalia and North Korea, and even though the internal violence of, for instance, North Korea, is not strictly a war, nonetheless there is much more there than in states with stronger institutions.
Thank you guys! The cauldron is the internal alchemy, which lies in the hara, lower Dantian or belly. Check out the Neidan diagrams. The Happy Buddha is all happy and full of vitality, represented with a huge belly, not because he eats plenty of donuts but because he has a Hara full of Qi:)
At 1:49:14 he talks about breaking the bone 😖 i have to say how hard and strong bone is. I hit the back of my head and very hard fell off my skateboard and going backwards hit the concrete harder than i imagine possible and my skull literally just rebounded instantly very light actually 😱 i cant believe i got straight back up from it and no damage at all in fact i didnt even feel dizzy or anything. I didnt believe you can hit your head so hard and survive!! 🤯
Being human can we assume there was a percentile of violent behavior related to sociopathic persons. Some abusive tribal leaders hoarding food supplies, trading precious commodities for favors to maintain power. Feeling entitled to what your neighbor has that you want.Or angry at the haves when you're a have not. Old story. Common thread.
The cremation site strongly suggests sacrifice since there's no distinction between human and animal remains. Animal remains were mixed with human remains in Carthage and sites under Carthaginian aegis. I'm surprised no one suggested this.
I can't state where I read it but I have seen it theorised that the advent of pastoralism in the Eurasian Steppe was the key factor for an increase of violence and the appearance of fortified structures. I fundamentally disagree with Pinker however. A million dead in Iraq, 600k in Afghanistan and an estimated 4 million in other conflicts this century paint another picture. An estimated 120million in the 20th century too. We remain a heinously violent species.
I couldn't agree more. Politics aside, it is appalling that there can be constant argument about whether such things as health care and education are affordable, yet there is never an issue around how much money can be spent on killing people in other countries. R
I guess that caring for animals and then growing crops produced the idea of private propery, and it is this that led to violence. Property, as distinct from communal ownership, is coveted and needs to be defended…
Yes, Tollense was like the Battle of the 5 Armies, a real World War at the time. Why did They fight? We can't say, but it was something very important for them. Maybe the river crossing?
You seem to have completely missed the cannibalism theory, on the "cremation" site. It looks to me, to be a communal kitchen! AND the sites of dolman that don't line up as usual, could be so ancient that they once in the past DID line up. Has this research been done?
Sorry i missed it 😮🙈 i would have liked to have asked him about the possibility of DNA and uniting any of these ancestor remains to living people who are alive today?? 🤔😱 Are the long barrow remains absolutely legitimate? Do the carbon dating correlate exactly to this period?
Regarding the apparent Neolithic massacres, I posit these were the result of an aggressive advance guard of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. These exterminations continued and worsened in successive waves with the development of the horse culture, and bronze. The practice by incursive Indo-European warrior bands of "marrying the land" is attested to in mythology, and by history as it was extended during the campaigns of Alexander and elsewhere. This practice was a great amplifier in the emergence of social classes after hunter-gatherers became gardeners and pastoralists. And we're talking about the wealth of horses here--- not of goats. And of steppe-bred horses the likes of which no European (whether of aboriginal or Anatolian stock) had even seen before. When elite patrilineal conquerers married their elite matrilineal subjects at the highest levels of society, their children received a double inheritance, doubling the wealth of the most powerful families in one generation.. We might now ask what became of the disinherited subject population's men and the disinherited conquering population's women (if any). Mind you--- IN ONE GENERATION, as these incursive waves that revolutionized the social structure even as they were revolutionizing the language. Oh, but I believe the jury is still out on any dating of the events chronicled in the Ulster Cycle and the Fenian Cycle, not to mention the Mythological Cycle. Others far more learned than I in such matters have posed differing interpretations of ecological descriptions, otherworldly encounters, and historical references in the stories. The archeological evidence seems to negate everything. But this is of great interest to me. Everyone! Our hosts, attending experts, and other listeners! Who do you think was first--- Finn--- or Cuchulain?
I grew up in California where large tracts of land were planted in avocados. Everyone called them orchards😂. I suppose what you call it would really depends on local custom.
Please get this guy back and pick his brain more on civil conflict vs intergroup conflict. I believe this is the most important question we have to answer, and there is much more to draw outS
I've seen the melted stone art used as false evidence before. "A Lie makes it halfway around the world while the Truth is lacing it's boots on."= Winston Churchill
it is quite disrupting when you keep interrupting your guest with tis and that whenever they are about to get interesting - sorry guys but had to comment on it
First organised war on record was in 2400BC near modern day Turkey, around the same time as capitalism/imperialism was invented in the same region. Coincidence? I think not.
Thank you for posting. Enjoyed immensely.
Nice, broad range of info today. Thank you. Martin’s segment was fascinating to make a person re-think.
Yes
Excellent work lads. Everyone should watch your channel. It baffles me that every history fan in the world isn’t here🤷♂️
Thanks for posting another great show. Dr. Smith was a great guest!
I always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty. Read
Agreed!
Excellent episode, your guest,Martin, was brilliant, looking forward to seeing more of him hopefully 👏 very thought provoking points 👍
I do love those mysteries that we can never have the answers to. Perhaps they had a taboo against burning humans and animals together, but used the same platform for two distinct purposes, each with their own ceremony, in the same way that we would use a church ground for a burial or a wedding, but probably not both at the same time!
On the other hand, perhaps it was an absolute necessity to burn a persons body along with some animal remains, in order that they'd have something to eat, or some livestock to farm, once they got to the great beyond.
We will never know, but it's fun to imagine!
Thanks you once again for a fascinating discussion...love the way you truly "flesh out" prehistory esp the Neolithic era.
Great podcast ..thank you both so much for the work you do.❤️
Loved the Meeting in the Forest polar anomoly bits!! You have Russell Brand including the words prehistory. LOTS OF ❤️ 2 U2 HANDSOME HOSTS!
This was a really great discussion. Thank you, Martin!
I always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty I pray to God to give you a lot of beautiful days and I hope God bless you to have a great day, I'm Williams by name from Arizona phonex and you where are you from?
Watching this again and it's still excellent. Dr. Martin Smith is very impressive - I'm also delighted to find a doctor of anthropology with a back history in nursing, quoting Hobbes and Rousseau.
Ends monstruously well, indeed! Thanks!
22:20 The 'sword coins' look like they could be representing the stock side of tally sticks.
always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty I pray to God to give you a lot of beautiful days and I hope God bless you to have a great day, I'm Williams by name from Arizona phonex and you where are you from...?
Excellent content - really enjoyed it. One note - I've often seen people maybe 100+ years ago use the words receipt and recipe interchangeably.
Thank you, Robert and Michael for this amazing interview with Martin, whose views I can respect as someone who has LIVED a life before turning to academia.
J. R. R. Tolkien, was utterly traumatised by "The Great War": the war to end all wars... CS Lewis too.
Now the mad man, Putin, is unleashing his power....
Humans are human, and men are men.
@1:07:39 , re so many injuries :
during the Depression (late 2008-2012 ;) ) I had a 2nd job at a printing company. We printed a lot of small town weekly or monthly newspapers. Most of them had a "100 Years Ago Today In the [XXX Reporter] " (&/or 50 &/or 150yrs ago) section. Almost every edition contained reports of somebody(s) seriously hurting themselves , or a helper or a bystander, with an axe. I wonder how many of those wounds found on excavated prehistoric bones were self-inflicted accidents?
I am thrilled by the crematory site in Italy & the human bone pendent from Russia. Today’s society place so much importance on the body of the dead being preserved/memorialized, I believe in the past a body was just that. I think the essence of the individual was what they may have been celebrating in ancient burials. I also suspect there were belief’s of a reincarnation & some practices may have been to release the essence from the physical form & other’s to possibly delay that release. I also believe animals were considered in the same regard, as having an essence, and the bone’s may be representing traits that the living wished to connect to. Similar to today’s attachment but far less emotionally driven.
Indeed. I find it very strange that the researcher jumped to his assumption. The discovery of folks keeping bones around for generations in ancient turkey at sites I can't spell led to archeologists thinking their was ancestor worship and skull cults. Why such a different view of the north European find?
I always want to say hi to you. You are such a beauty I pray to God to give you a lot of beautiful days and I hope God bless you to have a great day, I'm Williams by name from Arizona phonex and you where are you from?
Hello how are you doing
@@williamjohnson1618 well! I hope life is treating you well too, stranger. Nice to make your acquaintance, have a great day sir.
I appreciate your work!
I am reminded of a paper i read about a baboon group that suffered a devastating setback. Almost all the males ended up dying. So they lost that male line of intergenerational culture and so they developed a much more nonviolent and cooperative group dynamic. But whats even more interesting is that this cultural shift started to have a passifying affect on other surrounding baboon groups as well.
Civilization only develops when the gender roles advance hand in hand, cycle after cycle, or in waves of civility vs anarchy.
@@bennettcawley4630 that's been disproven, gender roles have little to do with social development
@@armorclasshero2103 Right. And what's your takeaway from this study, then?
@@bennettcawley4630 the baboon study? A cycle of intergenerational trauma and abuse was broken.
@@armorclasshero2103 Why wasn't it carried on?
Excellent discussion, very interesting.
When I first started in archaeology many years ago, I was lucky enough to work with a woman who wore a very interesting bracelet. It looked like wooden beads on a metal wire which was probably silver. Looking closer the beads turned out to be bones, and some of them were clearly really old. She said each one was a segment from a finger - think she said ring finger - of her female ancestors. They were certainly the right shape and size, as well a graduating in age and wear, so I've no reason to doubt it. Basically, if it can happen now, there was no reason for our ancestors not to keep small parts of their family members with them as jewellery or stitched to garments.
The cremains are intriguing, though. I wonder if was a cremated version of a "sky burial". I've no idea about the layout of the site, or it's position in its surroundings, but I wonder how open it may have been to the environment. Could the animal bones have been from creatures sacrificed as part of funerary rituals, or food offerings for the afterlife? So many questions with so many possible answers. I'm looking forward the results of research.
Great post!
Late to the party but once again I’ve thoroughly enjoyed listening to all of you talk about our , I am convinced, inherent violence and wars in general , thanks 😊
All the best Jules
You could spend a couple hours with Martin and it would be a great show. Not sure if you Gentlemen are interested in linguistics at all, Dr. Jackson Crawford has a channel on old Norse and related subjects. Not nearly as prehistoric as many of your subjects. Your program as always was very entertaining and educational. Stay safe and healthy on your travels.
Your thumbnail image is a reconstruction of the Tollense Valley battle by Jose Daniel Cabrera. It first appeared as an article illustration in the Spanish magazine "Muy Interesante".
Thank you. I did try to find out who the artist was but there didn't seem to be any reference in the sources. I'll credit him in the details. Michael 😊
Just a note on 'receipt' versus 'recipe' - That wasn't a translation error but an old usage of the word 'receipt.' It turns up all the time in cook books more than 200 years old.
Great show guys
Very curious thing with the Chinese metallurgy. I have been trying to learn about our current major religions and wonder if there may be some connections to the word Jin/ginn 🤔
Watching the live shots of the Queen's coffin being driven through Scotland, I thought I saw them drive by a mound and circle formation. Immediately thought of TPHG and wished you both were doing the commentary!
Love you guys❤
Congratulations on 138!
🍻
Hello from Jacksonville Florida
A friend was an Anthropologist at the Smithsonian Institute who studied the Canella Indians of the Amazon for decades. His monograph on them states that they had at one time been a war like tribe, but changed to a peaceful one by trading war for an emphasis on sex. They trade in bawdy joking, etc, but do have certain taboos on who can sleep with whom based on family relationships. His name is William Crocker.
On the decrease in violence over the past centuries: I think it's a lot more to do with the increasing depth and breadth of cultural institutions for addressing differences between people: judicial systems, political bodies at all scales from homeowners associations on up to the United Nations, bodies for trade regulation, businesses small and large who have more to gain from peaceful solutions than from getting out the axes and hacking the other company's people to bits. And when those institutions are weak, you get failed states like Somalia and North Korea, and even though the internal violence of, for instance, North Korea, is not strictly a war, nonetheless there is much more there than in states with stronger institutions.
Thank you guys! The cauldron is the internal alchemy, which lies in the hara, lower Dantian or belly. Check out the Neidan diagrams. The Happy Buddha is all happy and full of vitality, represented with a huge belly, not because he eats plenty of donuts but because he has a Hara full of Qi:)
An outdoor crematorium used in the late Bronze Age…. Fun stuff.
I have always thought burning more hygienic, but logic & ritual don’t always mix😂
At 1:49:14 he talks about breaking the bone 😖 i have to say how hard and strong bone is. I hit the back of my head and very hard fell off my skateboard and going backwards hit the concrete harder than i imagine possible and my skull literally just rebounded instantly very light actually 😱 i cant believe i got straight back up from it and no damage at all in fact i didnt even feel dizzy or anything. I didnt believe you can hit your head so hard and survive!! 🤯
This channel is going to explode soon
Yes, it will blossom wildly...
Why does this say Live January 2022??
You must be somewhere in the USA. In the rest of the world, 1/9/22 = 1st September 2022.
@@MrNas42 yes ofc i literally thought the dates could be reversed but then thought it looked like a recording and not live lol. My bad thanks!
🥰🥰🥰
@@MrNas42 🥰
@@MrNas42 🥰
Being human can we assume there was a percentile of violent behavior related to sociopathic persons. Some abusive tribal leaders hoarding food supplies, trading precious commodities for favors to maintain power. Feeling entitled to what your neighbor has that you want.Or angry at the haves when you're a have not. Old story. Common thread.
The cremation site strongly suggests sacrifice since there's no distinction between human and animal remains. Animal remains were mixed with human remains in Carthage and sites under Carthaginian aegis. I'm surprised no one suggested this.
I don't think I want to time travel anymore☹
Curiously, while society has become more passive generally, the urge to 'brain' someone remains strong in all of us at times : )
Them's fightin' words. LaBlanc 😉
suprised you have no control of the chats since we have a slider on ours
love youur vvids guys
I can't state where I read it but I have seen it theorised that the advent of pastoralism in the Eurasian Steppe was the key factor for an increase of violence and the appearance of fortified structures.
I fundamentally disagree with Pinker however. A million dead in Iraq, 600k in Afghanistan and an estimated 4 million in other conflicts this century paint another picture. An estimated 120million in the 20th century too. We remain a heinously violent species.
I couldn't agree more. Politics aside, it is appalling that there can be constant argument about whether such things as health care and education are affordable, yet there is never an issue around how much money can be spent on killing people in other countries. R
I guess that caring for animals and then growing crops produced the idea of private propery, and it is this that led to violence. Property, as distinct from communal ownership, is coveted and needs to be defended…
Yes, Tollense was like the Battle of the 5 Armies, a real World War at the time. Why did They fight? We can't say, but it was something very important for them. Maybe the river crossing?
You seem to have completely missed the cannibalism theory, on the "cremation" site. It looks to me, to be a communal kitchen! AND the sites of dolman that don't line up as usual, could be so ancient that they once in the past DID line up. Has this research been done?
Re Tollense. The fact that the "defenders" are from many different groups, would indicate more that they are refugees. Or some kind of Folkmigration.
I believe that Karelia used to be part of Finland before WW2.
The " three skins theory" is a winner!
Sorry i missed it 😮🙈 i would have liked to have asked him about the possibility of DNA and uniting any of these ancestor remains to living people who are alive today?? 🤔😱
Are the long barrow remains absolutely legitimate? Do the carbon dating correlate exactly to this period?
Helmets with horns are a ridiculous myth! Horned helmets originated/appeared in Victorian Era operas!
"Unpleasantness in the neolithic" - Oh, you're so british, Sir :-)
Regarding the apparent Neolithic massacres, I posit these were the result of an aggressive advance guard of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. These exterminations continued and worsened in successive waves with the development of the horse culture, and bronze.
The practice by incursive Indo-European warrior bands of "marrying the land" is attested to in mythology, and by history as it was extended during the campaigns of Alexander and elsewhere. This practice was a great amplifier in the emergence of social classes after hunter-gatherers became gardeners and pastoralists. And we're talking about the wealth of horses here--- not of goats. And of steppe-bred horses the likes of which no European (whether of aboriginal or Anatolian stock) had even seen before.
When elite patrilineal conquerers married their elite matrilineal subjects at the highest levels of society, their children received a double inheritance, doubling the wealth of the most powerful families in one generation.. We might now ask what became of the disinherited subject population's men and the disinherited conquering population's women (if any).
Mind you--- IN ONE GENERATION, as these incursive waves that revolutionized the social structure even as they were revolutionizing the language.
Oh, but I believe the jury is still out on any dating of the events chronicled in the Ulster Cycle and the Fenian Cycle, not to mention the Mythological Cycle. Others far more learned than I in such matters have posed differing interpretations of ecological descriptions, otherworldly encounters, and historical references in the stories. The archeological evidence seems to negate everything.
But this is of great interest to me. Everyone! Our hosts, attending experts, and other listeners! Who do you think was first--- Finn--- or Cuchulain?
I grew up in California where large tracts of land were planted in avocados. Everyone called them orchards😂. I suppose what you call it would really depends on local custom.
The name Castro probably triggered some algorithm.
Please get this guy back and pick his brain more on civil conflict vs intergroup conflict. I believe this is the most important question we have to answer, and there is much more to draw outS
Tripods give space for a heat source beneath the pot.
I've seen the melted stone art used as false evidence before. "A Lie makes it halfway around the world while the Truth is lacing it's boots on."= Winston Churchill
The feds, here just the feds.
it is quite disrupting when you keep interrupting your guest with tis and that whenever they are about to get interesting - sorry guys but had to comment on it
First organised war on record was in 2400BC near modern day Turkey, around the same time as capitalism/imperialism was invented in the same region. Coincidence? I think not.
airial burials
Our coffee mugs out numer us 10:1. Ps. I refuse to stop eating my dead relatives/strangers due to modern society's mores.