God, this makes so much sense. All of my efforts to eliminate that bit of natural protraction during high effort sets were always detrimental to my performance, despite what other people said. Thanks for making this video, it truly helped me understand the bench press better.
I can only speak from my own experience but I use to just have a flat bench and as I started lifting heavier and heavier weights eventually I started getting discomfort in my rotator cuff area. I read about using a power lifting arch and retracting my scapula for more stability and tried it out. My shoulder pain went away immediately and never returned and I started progressing even faster in weight. I've never had any problems with it but I admittedly only do a slight arch and I'm not making it a priority to hold my shoulders together while pressing so maybe it's just a matter of taking things to an extreme which is causing people problems.
because retracting your shoulders puts the movement where it should be into your triceps, not your shoulder. this guy is asking for a torn rotator cuff or pec if he goes up in heavy weight. you'll never hear of someone tearing a tricep in a bench press because its meant to press..
My recommendation has always been to set the shoulders in a relatively retracted position during the setup, then to completely forget about their existence during the descent and especially the ascent. This in my experience let's me reduce range of motion without squeezing the scaps and upper back the whole time.
My coach basically told me this but I didn't really understand what he meant until just now watching this video. He never said not to retract my shoulders, he simply told me to focus on creating tightness through leg drive and arching. He said instead of tightening my back to create arch to drive with my legs and push the bottom of my ribs toward the bar, which I did but I still retract my shoulders. I will be giving this a try today while benching to feel it out, as it does make a lot of sense that you don't want to engage muscles that will act in the opposite direction you want the bar to move!
You are definitely ok to have some retraction during that process of setting up. Don’t deliberately try to avoid it. Mostly just don’t try to retract while you are pressing. But what you described sounds correct. Just don’t worry if you feel your shoulders coming together some during your set up.
Thank god someone with credentials came out with this. I developed some shoulder pain in my bench press that was really messin with my head. Followed all these retraction tips and literally made my shoulder worse. Just lighter weight and movement with intent and slight angle changes made it go away.
Yea I didn’t say it explicitly in the video, but I do think many people’s shoulder issues they feel is because of this. They just are not allowing themselves to press effectively and end up shifting into areas that don’t really have that capacity.
This is very in line with how calisthenics athletes teach the good ol' pushups, retraction happens on the eccentric mostly on its own as you say, and on the concentric reverse back to neutral (or even protraction in the Pushup Plus variation). Great content as usual, and anecdotally had the same experience, everything felt better when I stopped thinking about forcing the position of my rotator cuf.
In my opinion arching and subsequent reduction in range of motion in the bench press should mostly be a result of spinal (thoracic and maybe lumbar extension) and not scapular function (retraction). I had very good results with some lighter front squats before my bench sessions, because it helped me to learn adopting this posture
In my personal experience and with many of my clients, the issue is that most shoulders are protracted in a person's neutral stance. For many people their posture has naturally pulled their shoulders forward and they definitely stop short on the bench press and push ups because there's a mental block to bringing the shoulders back. It's very very difficult to actually retract your shoulders and for most people by the time they have "retracted" they are actually neutral. For me personally, what I mentally think is "holding a pencil between my shoulder blades" is actually just having a straight and neutral back. The important part for me is not protracting which not only hurt my shoulder when I was younger, but it takes the tension off of the chest contraction. I imagine this is very different though in powerlifting as the weight would likely make it difficult. I immediately intensified my contraction across the chest especially at the end of a rep by bringing the shoulders back and holding them neutral. It feels less like curling your bicep while flexing your tricep and more like doing a bicep curl with a block behind your elbow. I guess some people have been saying to squeeze the shoulder blades together with all your might? That wouldn't be good. Thinking about it more, it's akin to engaging your core when you do calisthenics or squats. Your not curling so tightly that it moves in the opposite direction of the squat, but your engaging so that the energy transfer from the floor isn't in your jello. That's one large problem with everyone "hearing" a thing instead of being trained. It's very easy to get what someone explains wrong or say it incorrectly for the audience. Then those people walk away and poison their associates with the wrong ideas and all of the sudden people are imagining that they can push a bar upwards while pulling it down at the same time. Wild.
I remember reading Greg Nuckols on this. I think it was in his how to bench guide. If I remember correctly he said something along the lines of he didn't really care what you did with your shoulders as long as it was comfortable and facilitated good movement. depressed, retracted, elevated, he wasn't too fussed. his main thing was upon pressing up to concentrate on flaring and pushing. that was the main cue. I have a mildly kyphotic posture due to some mild schueuramann's disease and I've found that slightly elevating my shoulders and pinching with the upper traps a bit actually feels more comfortable than trying to depress the shoulder blades, and gives me a better platform to push off of. Anyways good video!
Right yea I agree here. And I think many of the comments that really disagree with the video didn’t get all the way to the end got upset with the clickbait title. I’ll have a video coming about flaring as well that I’m sure will get people just as upset without them really listening. But thanks for watching and getting the core message!
I'm a Massage Therapist newly getting into weight lifting. I just have to say - when I was first given the cue to retract my shoulder blades for bench press, it just seemed so wrong, based on my understanding of anatomy, but I was the noobie weightlifter so I listened to my trainer. Today I started looking around for actual reasons why retraction is good, and your video was a big relief to watch. Thank you!
You have one of the best channels on RUclips. Unfortunately most other channels just post this rehashed info for views. You explained it clearly and your channel is one of the few I value now. Thank-you so much.
I was struck in the bad way and if I didn't not suffer a shoulder impingement, I would not be listening to you but since I know the pain of shoulder impingement, I am listening to every word you are saying.
I actually started retracting my shoulders to manage the shoulder pain I was experiencing before. Before that my shoulders would just move around freely and put a lot of strain on the joint. Also, if you don't retract your shoulders, how do you keep the pecs included in the movement? Whenever I don't retract my shoulders the triceps take over and my pecs don't move pretty much at all.
Agreed! I developed a strain around my clavicle because I used to protract my shoulders to finish a tough lift. I started retracting a lot during the setup, and made good progress with NO pain since then. The title of the video is highly misleading, because all coaches and elite lifters I've listened to say to retract the shoulder blades.
the triceps are the primary mover, the pecs just stabilise in a press.. if he wants to tackle "myths" the biggest one is the bench press is a chest excercise.
This makes so much sense to me. I am trying to improve my bench press, and I started looking up guides on it and retracting and depressing my shoulder blades was a common thing. Now that I have been thinking about it, my bench press has felt way more unstable and I've started wiggling a lot when I approach failure. I used to just be able to fail but never actually wiggled the weight up -now, there's so much wiggling when I try and keep my chest up during the press, and shoulders back and down. I can't even focus on the leg drive because there's so much going on. I'm going to lower the weight a tad and try and focus more on my leg drive, and almost completely ignore my shoulders. It used to feel so much smoother when all I used to do was get under the bar, arch a bit and just press. Maybe I used to have subconsciously more leg drive than I do now. I am lifting more now than I used to be, but that's just due to time and muscle growth. My form feels way worse and I really want to fix that, because I know I am capable of pressing more than I really am. The wiggling is a pain in the ass. Thank you!
That make so much sense. I always could understand why we are tought to do something that works only until bar is relatively light. When we reach 90%+ of 1 Rep max this “perfect” cue of tacking elbows and retracting shoulders doesn’t work and we can only lift heavier when we do it “wrong” way.
Recently I experimented with pressing with not retracted shoulders for increased range of motion (and hopefully more hypertrophy), and I started having issues with my shoulder because I'm not trained in that bottom range of motion although I can shift some weight there. Just a word of caution to anyone who wants to change their style: don't go all in immediately, haha I've cued shoulder retraction and depression for myself a lot, for the descent. I've never considered that shoulder retraction could work against the press itself, but I don't seem to be having that problem. Probably just intuitively learnt to let the shoulders move enough during the press to let the pecs do their job. For high-arch bench pressers I'd say maximal shoulder retraction is still the way to go, because it seems to me that the benefits of (even slightly) reduced ROM tend to outweigh mechanical inefficiencies more and more as the ROM gets shorter. Like those ridiculous grips where the index finger is on the ring and the rest of the grip is actually 6cm to the side lol
I generally agree with most of this. Especially the last paragraph. For some people, the reduced ROM can outweigh the loss in potential force from the pecs. But that’s still almost exclusively during the descent. Retracting hard there might help a lot of people who have exceptionally big arches, but it doesn’t need to be maintained while they actually press.
Wow, I’ve been thinking about this exact subject during every benching session in my current mesocycle - your video is very informative and it seems I finally have some idea on how to modify my approach to shoulder retraction so I won’t feel like I need to fight my own body to keep my shoulder blades maximally pinched during pressing phase of the lift. Thank you so much, I’m subscribing immediately.
On the eccentric phase Im arching my back and less of my lower back and upper back is contacting the bench. Im also retracting my shoulder blades and actually providing a stiff connection with the ground, my feet, my torso, shoulder blades, and controlling the lowering of the bar. That way, Im actually keeping tension and using the elasticity of my muscles so I dont have to contract everything as hard during the concentric phase. So yeah, Ive had all sorts of other joint problems, but nothing in my shoulders or elbows from the bench. The bench sucks anyway. Its sad that some people have bench PRs better than what they squat.
This makes sense. I have been working on the big 3 lately and been focusing on powerlifting form. My shoulder aggravates me more than before and my knees have been hurting because im to focused on keeping my shoulders retracted on bench and pulling down on bar in the squat. Dont overthink it, just go through the movement and control the weight
Two part answer here because having done both raw and equipped I can speak a little bit on it. Not an expert in any way shape or form just my two cents. 1. For raw, when I draw my shoulder blades down and together it elevates my chest and to me, feels very stable. So by creating a tiny arch, and setting my body up to where the bar is effectively being moved through a decline bench instead of flat which typically is a stronger position for most. 2. In equipped, yes you are using your last to pull the bar to you because the shirt is fighting you but, by having shoulders down and together, your helping keep chest up to shorten that range of motion. I do see your point and I agree that not all ques are going to work for everyone. Maybe it's more of a build thing where maybe a wider or smaller lifter would benefit from.creating that shorter ROM. Great content as always!
The information reiterated in this video combined with a video Marcellus and Michael Seay put out a couple of years ago really helped my bench press overall. I often used so many cues to keep my scaps both retracted and depressed throughout and the whole purpose was for the psuedo-stability my brain felt while in that position, although it did nothing to help the actual press overall. Now, I mimic Noriega to some extent where all spinal extension and elevation is created and maintained through my leg drive during the set-up and the rep(s) themselves. Overall, my bench has not only improved from a 1RM POV, but also the consistency in my reps/barpath is much better as well. Solid video David!
Interesting. I think my own experience jibes with some of the favorable comments below. Retraction during setup helps me get my upper-upper back down on the bench properly and into the quasi-decline position. Your comment about "just press" is great.
What you say makes sense, in certain contexts. If you are talking about building CHEST strength, or prioritizing hypertrophy of the chest muscles...I think your advice makes great sense. For simply BENCH PRESS strength and the limited range of motion setting up for powerlifting provides...depending on your technique...chest might not be the most important muscle. You mention the function of the pectoral...but look at the wide handgrip and limited range of motion in benching for maximum weights. You aren't pulling your arm across your chest, you aren't providing a wide range of motion as you would with say a dumbbell bench press. My lats/back are much stronger than my pecs, as are most peoples...My lats and back carry the weight down and provide (with leg drive) my initial push...retracting my shoulders provides me the best leverage to activate my lats/back....and get my strongest upper body muscles heavily involved in the lift....and when you lift in this manner...you dont have to flare your elbows out to get them over anything....so that isn't even part of the equation because my elbows stay close to my body...again, i think this is good advice for CHEST strength...but misses the mark on pure BENCH PRESS strength because a powerlifting bench press is NOT a chest exercise, it's a compound exercise, that optimized, should prioritize the STRONGEST muscles for maximum lifts. Think about the powerlifting squat: Are you going to prioritize the quads for maximum lifts? Not if you want PR's...you are going to leverage your strongest lower body muscles....because again, the powerlifting squat is NOT a quad exercise...
your back muscles don't contract to push the weight away from your body, they lengthen. The argument that states your lats and rhomboids doing the most in a bench press is plain nonsense
The way Mark Rippetoe explained it was that it helps keep the bar path higher over the the chest (closer to a straight line down) without putting your shoulder in a compromised position.
I really just wouldn’t be taking advice from Rippetoe. Accomplishing that goal of having the bar go in a straight line would also make your bench worse. So both of those are bad.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I'm not sure why having the bar go in a straight line would make your bench worse; the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. His point was that if your back is flat, you'll have to tuck your elbows more and touch the bar lower to save your shoulders, but if your back is arched, you can touch a bit higher, reducing the horizontal motion in the bar path. I suppose that spinal flexion would give your chest said backwards arch, though.
Well my assumption here is that when you say straight line, you are meaning a line drawn straight down perpendicular to the floor. If that’s not what you mean then I apologize for the misunderstanding there. But I did mention bar path and range of motion in this video. But neither one is controlled by any muscles on your back. Again, that would be like saying your triceps are dominant in controlling the descent of the bicep curl.
Great video. I personally use some shoulder retraction for setting up my bench press. As very well discussed in video, that helps with creating tightness and reducing a bit ROM. However after the liftoff, I don't try to actively keep that position. I basically forget about it and focus on leg drive and pressing.
As far as I know, this originates from the point that we as humans in everyday life, when we push our shoulder blades open horizontally (protraction), as well as when we do the opposite gesture, our shoulder blades close horizontally (retraction). But, when we are lying on the bench, our scapulae cannot make a natural retraction, due to the weight of our body added to the weight we are lifting, so many experts recommend doing this retraction beforehand and thus avoid shoulder problems or injuries.
I destroyed my shoulder playing football broke it in 2 spots played through the whole season with it and I could not do any pressing movement and also developed osteolysis in my shoulder, had the choice to get surgery and miss all of off season and ruin my upcoming season or try physical therapy and see if it works, I chose PT and they taught me to use my shoulder blades and back when pressing over head and in front instead of putting all that pressure on my shoulder and rotator cuff and it saved my life and saved my career as a shot putter too without them teaching me this I would not be competing at a D1 level and I am still surgery free I not can raise my arm fully above my head pain free and can do any pressing movement pain free so I will continue pulling shoulder blades together when benching
@@Pepe-pq3om not really look up osteolysis they call it lifters shoulder they basically explained that people don’t use their back and shoulder blades so those muscles don’t get worked and it leads to the shoulder doing all the work that’s why people have a lot of problems when pressing and getting rom ac joint injuries are pretty common among athletes
The more retracted my shoulder blades are kept, the less sore my chest will be. I think the chest just becomes less involved and the lift becomes more shoulder and tri dominant
Great video David, when i first Got into PL and PL specefic training In allmost all cases the first thing being taught is the importance of maintaining a retracted position throughout the Bench Press, it was frustrating to me because i never seemed to be able to maintain that retracted position. Regardless of cues programming etc. Then i came across some of the material from kabuki strength yt Channel where they discuss scapulahumeral rythm and the focus should be more on depression and otherwise let the scapular move naturally through retraction and protraction throughout a Bench rep. I have certainly found it helpful for my Bench, nevertheless its a great topic for discussion once again great video David i look forward to the next !
Hypertrophy based benching for me is different.. I pack my lats and drop my shoulders DOWN not so much back . I first started ramming my shoulders back in an exaggerated retraction. That was still an omprpvement at the time but I then realised packing my lats and dropping my shoulders gave me the perfect line.
What do you mean by “packing” the lats my lats are pretty “flared” so to speak when I retract and I keep my shoulders low when benching. My goal is to isolate the pec and keep the shoulder joint safe.
the reason you retract your shoulders is it puts the movement into your triceps where it should be, not your shoulder that can't handle let's say 500 pounds hence why people tear pecs and rotator cuffs but not triceps. you do back work to create the stability of that position with it retracted. pressing is an arm movement, not a chest exercise. its the same as a squat, you want the glutes and hams to be stronger than your quads, as they're the workers .
Lol my guy, you have to stop commenting. I think you are looking at your information upside down or something as you couldn’t have things more backwards.
Not directly related, but I've seen some people retract and lock their scapulae when doing pull ups, horizontal rows and even biceps/triceps movements. Their argument being if you lock your shoulderblades, that takes the shoulder structure out of the movement, letting you better isolate your back, biceps or whatever it is you're trying to hit. Is this accurate?
Drawing my shoulders together and putting my elbows pointing more towards my waist helps getting the bar off the j cups. Maybe because pulling them together lifts me towards the bar more. I don't know. I have no issues with shoulder or anything. I don't think about it during the actual lifting.
I read somewhere (Mark Rippetoe?) that spreading the bar will help 'load the lats' on the descent. Kind of like a spring, it will assist in a recoil like effect during the ascent.
Everything Rippetoe says in nonsense. Including this. I’ve never once heard a reasonable explanation on how something like that is physically possible in any way.
I think chest stretching is important in conjunction with benching heavier weight, but it isn’t really productive to force your shoulders back the ENTIRE movement. The point seems to be more to have your shoulders retracted during the negative part of the lift so that when you start pressing you are in a stable position.
I found retracting my shoulder blades actually caused an impingement, so , when I set up and get super tight and pull the bat out my shoulder blades naturally pull thereselves downward rather that tucking them and fighting the lift
I just focus on creating a platform for the pressing muscles. Bench is mostly tricep anyways. The chest is much more of a stabilizer than a prime mover for me and it has worked both for getting muly numbers up aswell as making benching more enjoyable
I think you don't know what you're talking about. When scapula is in retraction it helps your rotator cuff to work better and prevent injury due to very small space inside your shoulder allowing rotator cuff structure to move.
@@BrazosValleyStrength It's quite hard for me to explain it using english terms while not being english. Simple answer is no. I can even tell that it gives your shoulder joint better stability. Better stability = less pressure on a rotator cuff = better overall functioning and smaller injury chance. I'm not trolling, I wrote whole master's thesis about rotator cuff function in weightlifting based on hundreds of medical articles. I can't find a specific article which i looked for but at this example we can still learn something. "This study highlights that shoulder abduction performed with scapular protraction and in combination with scapular elevation leads to increased activity of the middle deltoid and upper trapezius, resulting in imbalances between the scapulothoracic muscles that could hamper the optimal scapulohumeral rhythm. The abduction performed in the aforementioned scapular conditions also induce potential reciprocal inhibition effects between the movers and stabilizers muscles of scapula" When you go heavy bench press with neutral scapula position it sometimes force you to do protraction. You can't control as good neutral position as retraction because with retraction you feel that your scapulas are solid touching the bench. So to prevent going protraction you should use retraction because it won't make you hurt. A lot of my clients feel pain in a lot of exercises without retraction. I got rotator cuff tear on barbell bench press because i lost retraction. I didn't make a research about lifting heavier in normal position - you may be right, but still it's not a safer version. I found the article i looked for at journals lww and it's called "The Influence of Scapular Retraction and Protraction on the Width of the Subacromial Space An MRI Study SOLEM-BERTOFT". I can't paste the link because my last comments were deleted (i guess)
This was all address in the video though. I say specifically protraction is bad. And encourage retraction to some degree during the set up and descent. My argument is that you should not be trying to actively retract while pressing. I would find it pretty difficult for anyone to actually end up in protraction at all if they are arching and using leg drive. As I said, this video fits within the context of other videos.
@@BrazosValleyStrength At least I answered your question "Wouldn’t that be the exact opposite of what’s happening?" and gave a study. Using retraction is a good way and there is no real evidence that it shouldn't be used. Health over numbers.
I liked this video, and it does highlight some of the false info that we have grown accustomed to. However, the stability and efficiency we get from retracted scapula is very real. Also, the muscles that retract the scapula and offer this rigidity are not working in opposition to the pecs. As long as we know how to properly retract or pinch our shoulder blades together, we can create a solid and stable shoulder girdle for which our pecs can press from, and it will not impede the primary movers of the bench press.
How so? How does adding pinching together give us a better ability to press? Also, the pec minor does connect to the scapula and act as a protractor. So there is some conflict there. Also, what would be the incorrect way to retract? If you are implying that there is a correct and incorrect way to do it, can you elaborate there?
@@BrazosValleyStrength I think that what you and most people think when trying to retract shoulders is pushing your scapula as hard as you can with the typicall "like you where to hold a pencil with them", while it should be a gentle contraction just to move the scapulas. Also, it is not just pushing your blades like holding a pencil, you should add some depression too.
I really appreciate the multitude of opinions and cues that you can get on this platform from those with experience to share… I just tried this and it seemed to be of benefit. Thanks
Scapular retraction is to keep your shoulders from going into protraction or trying to keep your elbows from flaring too much in efforts to keep the rotator cuffs safe. Although, you bring up some great points I think retraction is necessary
Thank you for this! I've just started getting into lifting and have been feeling like i'm doing bench press all wrong because I can't keep my shoulder blades pinched when I push the weight up. It just feels super unnatural to me. So based on this video, I can start with my shoulder blades pinched but it's ok if they become unpinched on the way up?
I start with them retracted and let them protract near lockout to shift the load to my shoulders. I think starting with a flat back under near maximum loads is a very bad idea because literally every person I've ever seen destroy their shoulders starts their bench with a flat back.
Personally I like to think about rowing the bar down, but afterwards on the way up, I don't use that cue anymore, so I never have the problem with my shoulders. I never think about my shoulders during the bench
U should have a pinch but you should paying attention to whether you are causing damage. Keep the elbows down, slow and controlled reps, and keep the tension. He is right but got the wrong idea of pinching. You should always pinch; that’s part of keeping the tension. What you should not to is what he did here at 6:12 where the shoulders went moving up and elbows all to the side. If you do it like that you’re going to hear all sorts of pops and grinds when you get up and make no mistake it can cause injuries and nerve damage. You might not feel it for a few weeks or months of using this form and you might see great results from this form. But it is an ego lifting form and you won’t last long doing it. Trust me I learned the hard way.
"Pinch shoulderblades together" cue gives me some fucking jank shoulder pain when benching that I dont get without. I've been benching like this for a few months now, thought it was just "working out around an injury" but seems like its a better way to do it.
I agree with your vid. I saw one that mentioned to do it and I tried but it didn’t make sense when I felt my muscles they felt like they were combating each other because they’re antagonistic
This is interesting. I've been having shoulder issues ever since I got my power rack early this year. tons of clicking and popping, especially while trying to bench. I kinda assumed that my shoulders are bad and that i need to perfect my setup and do a lot of rotator cuff work. I can sometimes get a fairly click free set if I'm super tight and everything is in the perfect position. But I do wonder if I'm also just pulling things ouf of position. When I went to the gym as a teen I just benched and did everything poorly but had no issues. Now while I'm trying the hardest to do everything correctly I have the most issues. I had a crappy smith machine before and I dont think I had any shoulder issues. I just pushed the bar. It wasn't until I got my rack and tried to bench 'legit'. And now If I dont pull my shoulders back they are even worse. But I feel like I had no issues before.
That's because you ruined your shoulders over years of poor bench pressing technique and now that you're older it's gotten to the point where you can actually feel the effects
If its just popping and clicking its called audible crepitus and its not usually a sign of anything wrong. If you're experiencing pain with it you probably have some sort of impingement and should work on shoulder mobility exercises to make room for the tendon. Might could consult an actual doctor rather than morons like me and sumbitch up there, but I fixed my right shoulder with simple body and band exercises and its stronger than when I was a teen.
@@fenixchief7 moron or not, you are right with your recommendations. As a Physical therapist and personal trainer, I would start there, and see what happens after some exercises.
Now I know what is meant one should be not pushing the bar up but pushing into the bench. Aka using leg drive to keep the tension on the upper back but not worrying about retracting. It should be natural.
its called shoulder packing and was said to protect your shoulders from the dangers of benching from what i remember. i too feel kinda stronger? when i dont do it
Think flater back the weight is more spread out, more weight directly under your shoulders, which is usually hanging off the bench. Squeeze shoulders together, "less spread out," and shoulders are more likely to be supported by the bench instead of hanging off because the weight is more towards the center of your back instead of spread out. This is definitely more stable if shoulders are retracted properly. With that said, it still develops problems because it reduces range of motion and improperly distributes weight. It's just not how your body was made to push. I can bench more if I retract shoulders but have fewer problems if I don't. I recommend not squeezing shoulders back as you say here in this video.
@Brazos Valley Strength I did, i just disagree with the why, but I agree with the conclusion. Lol, totally like today's world, sees a disagreement as not listening, my wife is the same way.
@Brazos Valley Strength The antagonist muscle argument would be valid if it functioned the same as a simple 2 directional movement. Like with the bicep, if you contract your tricep, then you're not going to be able to contract your bicep. Simple makes sense. The shoulders being contacted back don't prevent the entire tricep or pexs from contracting, just limits the contraction, shortens the rang of motion. Also, from my experience, I lift way more with the contacted shoulder than without, I no longer retract my shoulders and arch my back because I want to strengthen the entire muscle and move it the way it was meant to. When I fight or wrestle, I do not retract my shoulders because I would be less able to push and punch. This is true. My whole body, from my feet up are part of my punches and pushing movements, in a bench your not moving your whole body, and you can even limit muscle even further by body position, this approach would definitely not be recommended standing but laying down with a bench under your back this can make the lift easier, with only up and down movements to worry about you can over work the fewer muscles and less rang of motion to make the bench easier but causing imbalances. To say other wise is like saying it is harder to lift weight through a shorter range of motion... so answer this, is it easier or harder to lift a weight through a shorter range of motion. I speak from 10 years of bench experience. And also you can think of it like this, less shoulder injury because less total weight lifted? Jk. That last one was a jab. But again we should not contact the shoulders unless we competing. Also I am okay with being wrong, I am mostly speaking from my bodies experience, so maybe I'm just a weirdo. Also after almost 15 years I've come to the conclusion that my wife is usually right. 😆.
I agree with the idea that obsession with protraction during the lift may be a problem. I retract my shoulder blades and squirm a lot during my set up in order to get into optimum position to unrack, but I've never had an issue at all with having to squirm around to keep the position once I've unracked. Two times I've developed shoulder issues from benching have both been from being unstable after unracking, and protracting shoulder blades has massively helped with that. I guess if I'm doing higher reps my upper back loses tightness, but I've never really thought about.
12:55 this is exactly why I won't stop doing this. 95% of people that have ever worked out do the arm spin thing or grab a rack and turn to stretch (neither as a warmup, but already in pain) or just straight up say "my shoulder is not feeling too good today". Not me 👌Could've just summed it up as legs stabilize you, and not having novice lifters thinking of trashing back cues
Hit 95kg and 2 weeks later injured my shoulder and chest due to ego and bad form since i was to excited to get stronger I decided to bench 90kg when my right shoulder was injured to bad form and struggling to retract
Retraction shortens the ROM and stretches the pecs = stronger position. Lats are a prime mover if you arch sufficiently... pecs and lats both perform adduction at the shoulder.
I’d really like to hear how the lats are a prime mover here. Your lats pull towards your body. That is adduction but not at all in the same plane as your pecs, or more importantly the plane we need for the bar on bench.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I'd first ask if you acknowledge that the pecs and lats both work together on dips and decline presses because your elbows are being pulled closer to your hips during the movement. An arched bench press is much like a decline press. The pecs and delts do most of the work at the shoulder but the lats help as I just described. However, if your set up is flat as a pancake so the arms pull straight across the body, the lats are not a prime mover.
No I disagree with the logical leaps you are making wholeheartedly. Just because your elbows are close to your hips does not mean your lats are making that happen. By this logic, a row would have the pec be a prime move as well since there is adduction and protraction during the eccentric.
@@BrazosValleyStrength Look at the elbow position at the bottom of a dip vs at the top of the dip (completed rep). To lift yourself to the top of a dip, your elbows are pulled down towards your hips. That is adduction, and the pecs and lats both contract to make that happen. I chose the dip because it's more obvious than on an arched bench press but it's the same concept. If you can't see it, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
Traps and rhomboids pull the arms back, in shoulder extension? No, they just retract the scapula. The traps and rhomboids are not antagonistic to the pressing muscles. The last, biceps, and rear delts are antagonistic.
I'm no expert by any means but I don't think anyone wants to tell you you are right or you are wrong. If you are an experienced lifter you may receive this information in a way that would have you perceive that what you are saying is wrong but too a beginner this information is perfect. It's just like Q's. I can tell someone to sit back on their heels and it will help them push with their midfoot/hold foot I could tell someone else the same thing and it could f****** their whole squat. You have very good content keep doing what you're doing you rock. Nothing you said was wrong. But like I said some people might take it as wrong because they're not perceiving it the way that you're explaining it.
I have gotten repetitive pec tendinopathy from trying to stay so retracted on my bench. It creates a lot of tension at the pec insertion when I'm overly retracted and over time it flares up. I think focusing more on thoracic extension (in conjunction with leg drive) and staying relatively depressed in the scapula has helped me stay in "position" without the shoulder issues. The cue for retraction 100% came from equipped side. When I was new into the RUclips fitness community about 5 years ago and digging into proper technique, Mark Bell was one of the more popular guys and always talked about squeezing a coin between your shoulder blades. He clearly came from the geared powerlifting side of things.
Dave, leg drive can be used to create an arch. This naturally creates shoulder depression instead of having to actively pull the shoulders down into depression. Is this correct?
Well sure. But we create a bigger arch by pulling hard into it. Depression is fine in the bench press. The video is specifically about retraction. But I think the majority of the people upset/confused in the comments confuse the feeling of depression and retraction.
@@BrazosValleyStrength Thanks for explaining. I want to teach my son a better way to press than I was taught. Maybe he can lessen the chance of shoulder issues. Thanks for this video and answering questions!!
Hmm, refocussing my bracing has actually helped my shoulder a lot. I do feel like if I lose depression and retraction, my shoulder lets me know about it. However, I do mainly focus on it on the way down, so I may have subconsciously been doing this
Where does the idea that rhomboids and upper traps being antagonistic to the pec major come from? Pec major works across the GH joint with no scapular attachments whereas rhomboids and traps work across the scapulothoracic with no huneral attachments. They dont influence each other in a direct way and arent truely antagonistic afaik.
Main point here actually is less about those specific muscles, and more so the actions. In my videos I really try to avoid evening getting too complex with minutia of the muscles. This video was sort of difficult to walk that line. Mostly my point being here that the muscles that work to create retraction of the scapula and the action of pulling the arm back are extremely hard to differentiate. So it’s much more about the effort it takes to retract and how that affects the ability to press. The pecs do protract the shoulder though which would be antagonistic. While we don’t need protraction, we shouldn’t be pulling our arms in the opposite direction of where we are trying to press.
@@BrazosValleyStrength hmmmm interesting. Im more so under the impression that you can keep your scapula retracted without it hindering the pressing action at all as there are no actions involved in pressing from those specific muscles that antagonize each other. I believe the pec minor does do protraction but it isnt a prime mover in the bench press sooo? I dont doubt that some people do get so caught up with actively retracting that they cant connect with more important aspects of the lift, but ill have to disagree on how retracting the scapula will work against your pec majors ability to press.
I guess what im trying to say is pulling your scapula back doesnt have any effect on your ability to horizontally adduct at the GH joint, or extend at your elbows...
Maybe the best question to ask here is can we practically separate the action of recreating the scapula and pulling on the upper arm? That is the crux of the argument to me. My feeling is no. And secondly, does retraction meaningfully add to pressing strength even if we can separate forces on the upper arm? Again my thought is no and then it becomes wasted physical/mental effort that can take way from efforts that add much more value.
@@VictorYTMusic811 No, holding retraction and into protraction inhibits the pec minor and inhibits extension and adduction of the bar. Kassem from N1 has a video on this subject at length from at least a year ago.
My bench rapidly increased to 238lbs (body weight 154lbs) when I retracted my shoulders, BUT I retract before the lift, descend, then protract with elbow flare on the way up. Like most things, the devil is in the detail and I’m not sure these details are covered. Hope this helps.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I re-watched your video to make sure I didn't miss something. The message I got was not to either protract or retract and instead focus on leg drive and creation of arch, whilst avoiding retraction during concentric phase to avoid neuromuscular de-activation of pecs. Is this correct?
Yes. I don’t think I would even say the neuromuscular part though. Mostly just logically not to act against the bar and use cues that provide force against the bar. I would wholeheartedly disagree that actively protracting adds any value. And that if you are arching and using leg drive well there usually will be some retraction naturally.
I overretracted for years and now I'm dealing with shoulder pain that refuses to go away. I only get it during horizontal pressing though. Vertical & dips are fine for some reason. My right side is stuck in, what feels like, a constantly retracted state, so much that my right arm is visible "shorter" (not actual length, but because of the retraction) than my left. This is now my resting position. I can't contract my chest properly without feeling a tremendeous amount of tension in my shoulder, and doing the bench press motion with just my arms hurt. Not sure what to do either. Focusing on more movement of the shoulder blades does not seem to help. Stretching is so frowned upon nowadays that I haven't even bothered with it. PT's in my small town are horrible and doesn't understanding lifting. Their advice is always "stop lifting" essentially.
My suggestion would be to keep doing pressing movements that you can, and that allow full ROM. Some things that have helped me overcome some pec pain is DB Pressing with some protraction at the top, loaded pushups with a slight deficit and full protraction, and any other machine that will allow that full comfortable movement. Sounds like you have tried a lot of things, so that may not help, but it might be a start. Good luck with it.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I might just have to dial everything back and really just emphasize the relative protraction of my right side. DB's hurt, but pushups have worked semi-well for some time now. They hurt some days, and other days they're fine. Same with dips. Might be the last inch (or whatever) of protraction that I'm incosistent with, because if I don't actively focus on it, it does not happen. The weird thing for me is that the pain is always in the deepest stretched positon, so I wonder how protracting more helps with that.
I always thought retraction was done to avoid shoulder anteversion in the stretched part of the movement. This is more evident in dips, if I dont retract, my shoulders instantly goes into anteversion. In the pushup, the natural pressing movement, we do retract in the lower part and protract in the upper part. Logically, we cant retract in the bench if we are movimg 225 or more, so people are told to retract at the start, we lose the benefits of protraction at the top tho but avoiding injury its a good cause. That was what I always thought
As I said in the video, everything here adds on top of my other bench press set up videos. The point here is people are told to retract when they press, and that is dumb.
Actively retracting the scapula engages muscles that reciprocally inhibit the pecs... it makes ZERO sense to keep these muscles consciously engaged. It is ideal to have a starting position where your scapula are "down and back" with your serratus muscle engaged, which is assisted by the lats as a stabilizer, but of any of the muscles to focus on keeping locked in, it would be the Lats and the Serratus. If you can FEEL this area of the body stabilizing the bench press, then you are pushing from a good foundation. There is no need to squeeze any of your scapula retracting muscles.
My shoulders always hurt from benching pressing with a retracted scapula. But when I stopped retracting my scapula my shoulders doesn't hurt anymore. (but I still depress my scapula but I do not retract it)
Most cues in lifting are over generalized. Such as the over extension of the back when DLing and squatting. A normal hinge is enough. Aka neutral. People overcue the retraction in DLing also,in reality you just need to pin the lats. That engages it. When ppl actually retract the shoulderblades and DL its going to result in a loss of that position. Same with bench. I dont picture myself retracting the shoulder blades, but I do pin the lats and twist the bar and put my elbows at a slightly tucked angle. In the end, as long as your scapula and traps are planted and stable, thats all that matters. Actively trying to retract or over squeeze their shoulders just wastes energy imho.
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God, this makes so much sense. All of my efforts to eliminate that bit of natural protraction during high effort sets were always detrimental to my performance, despite what other people said.
Thanks for making this video, it truly helped me understand the bench press better.
I can only speak from my own experience but I use to just have a flat bench and as I started lifting heavier and heavier weights eventually I started getting discomfort in my rotator cuff area. I read about using a power lifting arch and retracting my scapula for more stability and tried it out. My shoulder pain went away immediately and never returned and I started progressing even faster in weight. I've never had any problems with it but I admittedly only do a slight arch and I'm not making it a priority to hold my shoulders together while pressing so maybe it's just a matter of taking things to an extreme which is causing people problems.
^same
same
+
because retracting your shoulders puts the movement where it should be into your triceps, not your shoulder. this guy is asking for a torn rotator cuff or pec if he goes up in heavy weight. you'll never hear of someone tearing a tricep in a bench press because its meant to press..
My recommendation has always been to set the shoulders in a relatively retracted position during the setup, then to completely forget about their existence during the descent and especially the ascent.
This in my experience let's me reduce range of motion without squeezing the scaps and upper back the whole time.
Yep pretty much this.
I always retract my shoulder blades and I can Bench 385 at a body weight of 185.
@@johnreidy2804 keep it up then, everybody is different
@@johnreidy2804 what does that matter
@@monkeyhater4203 apparently it doesn't matter whether you retract you reshoulders or not
For me pushing my shoulders back actually got rid of a lot of shoulder issues. But i do admit its harder to reach peak weights with it
same
My coach basically told me this but I didn't really understand what he meant until just now watching this video. He never said not to retract my shoulders, he simply told me to focus on creating tightness through leg drive and arching. He said instead of tightening my back to create arch to drive with my legs and push the bottom of my ribs toward the bar, which I did but I still retract my shoulders. I will be giving this a try today while benching to feel it out, as it does make a lot of sense that you don't want to engage muscles that will act in the opposite direction you want the bar to move!
You are definitely ok to have some retraction during that process of setting up. Don’t deliberately try to avoid it. Mostly just don’t try to retract while you are pressing. But what you described sounds correct. Just don’t worry if you feel your shoulders coming together some during your set up.
Thank god someone with credentials came out with this. I developed some shoulder pain in my bench press that was really messin with my head. Followed all these retraction tips and literally made my shoulder worse. Just lighter weight and movement with intent and slight angle changes made it go away.
Yea I didn’t say it explicitly in the video, but I do think many people’s shoulder issues they feel is because of this. They just are not allowing themselves to press effectively and end up shifting into areas that don’t really have that capacity.
same lol
So you've been ego lifting most your life... dont blame the form
@@wilfordbrimley6938 you sound like a lotta fun to be around 😃👍🏻
@@jameszbierski391 nah he's gay
This is very in line with how calisthenics athletes teach the good ol' pushups, retraction happens on the eccentric mostly on its own as you say, and on the concentric reverse back to neutral (or even protraction in the Pushup Plus variation).
Great content as usual, and anecdotally had the same experience, everything felt better when I stopped thinking about forcing the position of my rotator cuf.
Visualizing my scapulas like I do on a push-up instantly corrected any shoulder pain I had during the movement, for sure
Highly experienced powerlifter gives us gifts. Priceless ! Thank you David.
In my opinion arching and subsequent reduction in range of motion in the bench press should mostly be a result of spinal (thoracic and maybe lumbar extension) and not scapular function (retraction). I had very good results with some lighter front squats before my bench sessions, because it helped me to learn adopting this posture
Nice drill 🤙🏽
In my personal experience and with many of my clients, the issue is that most shoulders are protracted in a person's neutral stance. For many people their posture has naturally pulled their shoulders forward and they definitely stop short on the bench press and push ups because there's a mental block to bringing the shoulders back. It's very very difficult to actually retract your shoulders and for most people by the time they have "retracted" they are actually neutral. For me personally, what I mentally think is "holding a pencil between my shoulder blades" is actually just having a straight and neutral back. The important part for me is not protracting which not only hurt my shoulder when I was younger, but it takes the tension off of the chest contraction. I imagine this is very different though in powerlifting as the weight would likely make it difficult. I immediately intensified my contraction across the chest especially at the end of a rep by bringing the shoulders back and holding them neutral. It feels less like curling your bicep while flexing your tricep and more like doing a bicep curl with a block behind your elbow. I guess some people have been saying to squeeze the shoulder blades together with all your might? That wouldn't be good. Thinking about it more, it's akin to engaging your core when you do calisthenics or squats. Your not curling so tightly that it moves in the opposite direction of the squat, but your engaging so that the energy transfer from the floor isn't in your jello.
That's one large problem with everyone "hearing" a thing instead of being trained. It's very easy to get what someone explains wrong or say it incorrectly for the audience. Then those people walk away and poison their associates with the wrong ideas and all of the sudden people are imagining that they can push a bar upwards while pulling it down at the same time. Wild.
Finally some sense! Thanks
yeah, my posture is really bad so I need to retract to not jack up my shoulder. But it does weaken my bench.
That explains all the conflicting advice. Thanks!
I remember reading Greg Nuckols on this. I think it was in his how to bench guide. If I remember correctly he said something along the lines of he didn't really care what you did with your shoulders as long as it was comfortable and facilitated good movement. depressed, retracted, elevated, he wasn't too fussed. his main thing was upon pressing up to concentrate on flaring and pushing. that was the main cue. I have a mildly kyphotic posture due to some mild schueuramann's disease and I've found that slightly elevating my shoulders and pinching with the upper traps a bit actually feels more comfortable than trying to depress the shoulder blades, and gives me a better platform to push off of. Anyways good video!
Right yea I agree here. And I think many of the comments that really disagree with the video didn’t get all the way to the end got upset with the clickbait title. I’ll have a video coming about flaring as well that I’m sure will get people just as upset without them really listening. But thanks for watching and getting the core message!
I'm a Massage Therapist newly getting into weight lifting. I just have to say - when I was first given the cue to retract my shoulder blades for bench press, it just seemed so wrong, based on my understanding of anatomy, but I was the noobie weightlifter so I listened to my trainer. Today I started looking around for actual reasons why retraction is good, and your video was a big relief to watch. Thank you!
You have one of the best channels on RUclips. Unfortunately most other channels just post this rehashed info for views. You explained it clearly and your channel is one of the few I value now. Thank-you so much.
I was struck in the bad way and if I didn't not suffer a shoulder impingement, I would not be listening to you but since I know the pain of shoulder impingement, I am listening to every word you are saying.
I actually started retracting my shoulders to manage the shoulder pain I was experiencing before. Before that my shoulders would just move around freely and put a lot of strain on the joint.
Also, if you don't retract your shoulders, how do you keep the pecs included in the movement? Whenever I don't retract my shoulders the triceps take over and my pecs don't move pretty much at all.
Agreed! I developed a strain around my clavicle because I used to protract my shoulders to finish a tough lift. I started retracting a lot during the setup, and made good progress with NO pain since then. The title of the video is highly misleading, because all coaches and elite lifters I've listened to say to retract the shoulder blades.
@@henridsbro did you watch the video?
the triceps are the primary mover, the pecs just stabilise in a press.. if he wants to tackle "myths" the biggest one is the bench press is a chest excercise.
This makes so much sense to me. I am trying to improve my bench press, and I started looking up guides on it and retracting and depressing my shoulder blades was a common thing. Now that I have been thinking about it, my bench press has felt way more unstable and I've started wiggling a lot when I approach failure. I used to just be able to fail but never actually wiggled the weight up -now, there's so much wiggling when I try and keep my chest up during the press, and shoulders back and down. I can't even focus on the leg drive because there's so much going on.
I'm going to lower the weight a tad and try and focus more on my leg drive, and almost completely ignore my shoulders. It used to feel so much smoother when all I used to do was get under the bar, arch a bit and just press. Maybe I used to have subconsciously more leg drive than I do now. I am lifting more now than I used to be, but that's just due to time and muscle growth. My form feels way worse and I really want to fix that, because I know I am capable of pressing more than I really am. The wiggling is a pain in the ass.
Thank you!
That make so much sense. I always could understand why we are tought to do something that works only until bar is relatively light. When we reach 90%+ of 1 Rep max this “perfect” cue of tacking elbows and retracting shoulders doesn’t work and we can only lift heavier when we do it “wrong” way.
Recently I experimented with pressing with not retracted shoulders for increased range of motion (and hopefully more hypertrophy), and I started having issues with my shoulder because I'm not trained in that bottom range of motion although I can shift some weight there. Just a word of caution to anyone who wants to change their style: don't go all in immediately, haha
I've cued shoulder retraction and depression for myself a lot, for the descent. I've never considered that shoulder retraction could work against the press itself, but I don't seem to be having that problem. Probably just intuitively learnt to let the shoulders move enough during the press to let the pecs do their job.
For high-arch bench pressers I'd say maximal shoulder retraction is still the way to go, because it seems to me that the benefits of (even slightly) reduced ROM tend to outweigh mechanical inefficiencies more and more as the ROM gets shorter. Like those ridiculous grips where the index finger is on the ring and the rest of the grip is actually 6cm to the side lol
I generally agree with most of this. Especially the last paragraph. For some people, the reduced ROM can outweigh the loss in potential force from the pecs. But that’s still almost exclusively during the descent. Retracting hard there might help a lot of people who have exceptionally big arches, but it doesn’t need to be maintained while they actually press.
Wow, I’ve been thinking about this exact subject during every benching session in my current mesocycle - your video is very informative and it seems I finally have some idea on how to modify my approach to shoulder retraction so I won’t feel like I need to fight my own body to keep my shoulder blades maximally pinched during pressing phase of the lift. Thank you so much, I’m subscribing immediately.
Same here.... 🥲 I just failed a bench press PR attempt because of thinking about squeezing the lats in the concentric part of the motion
On the eccentric phase Im arching my back and less of my lower back and upper back is contacting the bench. Im also retracting my shoulder blades and actually providing a stiff connection with the ground, my feet, my torso, shoulder blades, and controlling the lowering of the bar. That way, Im actually keeping tension and using the elasticity of my muscles so I dont have to contract everything as hard during the concentric phase. So yeah, Ive had all sorts of other joint problems, but nothing in my shoulders or elbows from the bench.
The bench sucks anyway. Its sad that some people have bench PRs better than what they squat.
1:41 "coming down will be depression"
me at 4 am on many nights
lol
This makes sense. I have been working on the big 3 lately and been focusing on powerlifting form. My shoulder aggravates me more than before and my knees have been hurting because im to focused on keeping my shoulders retracted on bench and pulling down on bar in the squat. Dont overthink it, just go through the movement and control the weight
Two part answer here because having done both raw and equipped I can speak a little bit on it. Not an expert in any way shape or form just my two cents.
1. For raw, when I draw my shoulder blades down and together it elevates my chest and to me, feels very stable. So by creating a tiny arch, and setting my body up to where the bar is effectively being moved through a decline bench instead of flat which typically is a stronger position for most.
2. In equipped, yes you are using your last to pull the bar to you because the shirt is fighting you but, by having shoulders down and together, your helping keep chest up to shorten that range of motion.
I do see your point and I agree that not all ques are going to work for everyone. Maybe it's more of a build thing where maybe a wider or smaller lifter would benefit from.creating that shorter ROM. Great content as always!
Both of your points are about the descent so I agree. I did talk about that in the video. We just don’t want to try to retract while pressing.
The information reiterated in this video combined with a video Marcellus and Michael Seay put out a couple of years ago really helped my bench press overall. I often used so many cues to keep my scaps both retracted and depressed throughout and the whole purpose was for the psuedo-stability my brain felt while in that position, although it did nothing to help the actual press overall.
Now, I mimic Noriega to some extent where all spinal extension and elevation is created and maintained through my leg drive during the set-up and the rep(s) themselves. Overall, my bench has not only improved from a 1RM POV, but also the consistency in my reps/barpath is much better as well. Solid video David!
Interesting. I think my own experience jibes with some of the favorable comments below. Retraction during setup helps me get my upper-upper back down on the bench properly and into the quasi-decline position. Your comment about "just press" is great.
What you say makes sense, in certain contexts. If you are talking about building CHEST strength, or prioritizing hypertrophy of the chest muscles...I think your advice makes great sense. For simply BENCH PRESS strength and the limited range of motion setting up for powerlifting provides...depending on your technique...chest might not be the most important muscle. You mention the function of the pectoral...but look at the wide handgrip and limited range of motion in benching for maximum weights. You aren't pulling your arm across your chest, you aren't providing a wide range of motion as you would with say a dumbbell bench press. My lats/back are much stronger than my pecs, as are most peoples...My lats and back carry the weight down and provide (with leg drive) my initial push...retracting my shoulders provides me the best leverage to activate my lats/back....and get my strongest upper body muscles heavily involved in the lift....and when you lift in this manner...you dont have to flare your elbows out to get them over anything....so that isn't even part of the equation because my elbows stay close to my body...again, i think this is good advice for CHEST strength...but misses the mark on pure BENCH PRESS strength because a powerlifting bench press is NOT a chest exercise, it's a compound exercise, that optimized, should prioritize the STRONGEST muscles for maximum lifts. Think about the powerlifting squat: Are you going to prioritize the quads for maximum lifts? Not if you want PR's...you are going to leverage your strongest lower body muscles....because again, the powerlifting squat is NOT a quad exercise...
How do your back muscles carry the weight down? And how do they push? That’s literally the opposite of what they do.
your back muscles don't contract to push the weight away from your body, they lengthen. The argument that states your lats and rhomboids doing the most in a bench press is plain nonsense
The way Mark Rippetoe explained it was that it helps keep the bar path higher over the the chest (closer to a straight line down) without putting your shoulder in a compromised position.
I really just wouldn’t be taking advice from Rippetoe. Accomplishing that goal of having the bar go in a straight line would also make your bench worse. So both of those are bad.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I'm not sure why having the bar go in a straight line would make your bench worse; the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. His point was that if your back is flat, you'll have to tuck your elbows more and touch the bar lower to save your shoulders, but if your back is arched, you can touch a bit higher, reducing the horizontal motion in the bar path. I suppose that spinal flexion would give your chest said backwards arch, though.
Well my assumption here is that when you say straight line, you are meaning a line drawn straight down perpendicular to the floor. If that’s not what you mean then I apologize for the misunderstanding there.
But I did mention bar path and range of motion in this video. But neither one is controlled by any muscles on your back. Again, that would be like saying your triceps are dominant in controlling the descent of the bicep curl.
Great video. I personally use some shoulder retraction for setting up my bench press. As very well discussed in video, that helps with creating tightness and reducing a bit ROM. However after the liftoff, I don't try to actively keep that position. I basically forget about it and focus on leg drive and pressing.
I have been struggling about my shoulder position while doing bench press. Will definitely try your approach aka just be normal lol
As far as I know, this originates from the point that we as humans in everyday life, when we push our shoulder blades open horizontally (protraction), as well as when we do the opposite gesture, our shoulder blades close horizontally (retraction). But, when we are lying on the bench, our scapulae cannot make a natural retraction, due to the weight of our body added to the weight we are lifting, so many experts recommend doing this retraction beforehand and thus avoid shoulder problems or injuries.
Seems a lot of commenters didn't watch the video or didn't understand.
Couldn’t agree more. I got so lost in what my shoulders were doing and forgot about the bigger picture
How would you protect your shoulders from injury without retracting?
I destroyed my shoulder playing football broke it in 2 spots played through the whole season with it and I could not do any pressing movement and also developed osteolysis in my shoulder, had the choice to get surgery and miss all of off season and ruin my upcoming season or try physical therapy and see if it works, I chose PT and they taught me to use my shoulder blades and back when pressing over head and in front instead of putting all that pressure on my shoulder and rotator cuff and it saved my life and saved my career as a shot putter too without them teaching me this I would not be competing at a D1 level and I am still surgery free I not can raise my arm fully above my head pain free and can do any pressing movement pain free so I will continue pulling shoulder blades together when benching
That sounds extremely specific case tho
@@Pepe-pq3om not really look up osteolysis they call it lifters shoulder they basically explained that people don’t use their back and shoulder blades so those muscles don’t get worked and it leads to the shoulder doing all the work that’s why people have a lot of problems when pressing and getting rom ac joint injuries are pretty common among athletes
So from my understanding; you allow your shoulders to retract at the bottom so your elbows go straight down instead of rounding backwards.
The more retracted my shoulder blades are kept, the less sore my chest will be. I think the chest just becomes less involved and the lift becomes more shoulder and tri dominant
Great video David, when i first Got into PL and PL specefic training In allmost all cases the first thing being taught is the importance of maintaining a retracted position throughout the Bench Press, it was frustrating to me because i never seemed to be able to maintain that retracted position. Regardless of cues programming etc. Then i came across some of the material from kabuki strength yt Channel where they discuss scapulahumeral rythm and the focus should be more on depression and otherwise let the scapular move naturally through retraction and protraction throughout a Bench rep. I have certainly found it helpful for my Bench, nevertheless its a great topic for discussion once again great video David i look forward to the next !
Hypertrophy based benching for me is different.. I pack my lats and drop my shoulders DOWN not so much back . I first started ramming my shoulders back in an exaggerated retraction. That was still an omprpvement at the time but I then realised packing my lats and dropping my shoulders gave me the perfect line.
What do you mean by “packing” the lats my lats are pretty “flared” so to speak when I retract and I keep my shoulders low when benching. My goal is to isolate the pec and keep the shoulder joint safe.
@@MrCococda packed = flared. And yeah, same in many chest exercises.
the reason you retract your shoulders is it puts the movement into your triceps where it should be, not your shoulder that can't handle let's say 500 pounds hence why people tear pecs and rotator cuffs but not triceps. you do back work to create the stability of that position with it retracted. pressing is an arm movement, not a chest exercise. its the same as a squat, you want the glutes and hams to be stronger than your quads, as they're the workers .
Lol my guy, you have to stop commenting. I think you are looking at your information upside down or something as you couldn’t have things more backwards.
@@BrazosValleyStrength ok let me go flare my elbows and use my shoulders to press 500 lbs. i'll send you the orthopedic bill.
@@kenuffffflaring your elbows on the concentric is much better than not flaring if we’re talking raw.
Not directly related, but I've seen some people retract and lock their scapulae when doing pull ups, horizontal rows and even biceps/triceps movements. Their argument being if you lock your shoulderblades, that takes the shoulder structure out of the movement, letting you better isolate your back, biceps or whatever it is you're trying to hit. Is this accurate?
Drawing my shoulders together and putting my elbows pointing more towards my waist helps getting the bar off the j cups. Maybe because pulling them together lifts me towards the bar more. I don't know. I have no issues with shoulder or anything. I don't think about it during the actual lifting.
I have a video coming this week that might help you here.
I read somewhere (Mark Rippetoe?) that spreading the bar will help 'load the lats' on the descent. Kind of like a spring, it will assist in a recoil like effect during the ascent.
Everything Rippetoe says in nonsense. Including this. I’ve never once heard a reasonable explanation on how something like that is physically possible in any way.
I think chest stretching is important in conjunction with benching heavier weight, but it isn’t really productive to force your shoulders back the ENTIRE movement. The point seems to be more to have your shoulders retracted during the negative part of the lift so that when you start pressing you are in a stable position.
I found retracting my shoulder blades actually caused an impingement, so , when I set up and get super tight and pull the bat out my shoulder blades naturally pull thereselves downward rather that tucking them and fighting the lift
2:05 close grip. I concur with.
Wide grip will snap your rotator cuffs.
Yes it has its place but in moderation.
I just focus on creating a platform for the pressing muscles. Bench is mostly tricep anyways. The chest is much more of a stabilizer than a prime mover for me and it has worked both for getting muly numbers up aswell as making benching more enjoyable
More of a stabiliser FOR YOU. For many others its chest as prime mover. For different techniques, its chest or tricep.
This is a great sight. I think it‘s similar to the push up
Retract your Shoulder Blades. its a must do set up movement for Benching safely and other benefits..
Like what?
I think you don't know what you're talking about. When scapula is in retraction it helps your rotator cuff to work better and prevent injury due to very small space inside your shoulder allowing rotator cuff structure to move.
How does pinning your scapula back help your rotator cuff muscles move? Wouldn’t that be the exact opposite of what’s happening?
@@BrazosValleyStrength It's quite hard for me to explain it using english terms while not being english. Simple answer is no. I can even tell that it gives your shoulder joint better stability. Better stability = less pressure on a rotator cuff = better overall functioning and smaller injury chance. I'm not trolling, I wrote whole master's thesis about rotator cuff function in weightlifting based on hundreds of medical articles. I can't find a specific article which i looked for but at this example we can still learn something.
"This study highlights that shoulder abduction performed with scapular protraction and in combination with scapular elevation leads to increased activity of the middle deltoid and upper trapezius, resulting in imbalances between the scapulothoracic muscles that could hamper the optimal scapulohumeral rhythm. The abduction performed in the aforementioned scapular conditions also induce potential reciprocal inhibition effects between the movers and stabilizers muscles of scapula"
When you go heavy bench press with neutral scapula position it sometimes force you to do protraction. You can't control as good neutral position as retraction because with retraction you feel that your scapulas are solid touching the bench. So to prevent going protraction you should use retraction because it won't make you hurt. A lot of my clients feel pain in a lot of exercises without retraction. I got rotator cuff tear on barbell bench press because i lost retraction. I didn't make a research about lifting heavier in normal position - you may be right, but still it's not a safer version.
I found the article i looked for at journals lww and it's called "The Influence of Scapular Retraction and Protraction on the Width of the Subacromial Space
An MRI Study
SOLEM-BERTOFT". I can't paste the link because my last comments were deleted (i guess)
This was all address in the video though. I say specifically protraction is bad. And encourage retraction to some degree during the set up and descent. My argument is that you should not be trying to actively retract while pressing.
I would find it pretty difficult for anyone to actually end up in protraction at all if they are arching and using leg drive. As I said, this video fits within the context of other videos.
@@BrazosValleyStrength At least I answered your question "Wouldn’t that be the exact opposite of what’s happening?" and gave a study. Using retraction is a good way and there is no real evidence that it shouldn't be used. Health over numbers.
I do appreciate you staying on topic I like pretty much every other person I disagreed with.
I liked this video, and it does highlight some of the false info that we have grown accustomed to. However, the stability and efficiency we get from retracted scapula is very real. Also, the muscles that retract the scapula and offer this rigidity are not working in opposition to the pecs. As long as we know how to properly retract or pinch our shoulder blades together, we can create a solid and stable shoulder girdle for which our pecs can press from, and it will not impede the primary movers of the bench press.
How so? How does adding pinching together give us a better ability to press?
Also, the pec minor does connect to the scapula and act as a protractor. So there is some conflict there.
Also, what would be the incorrect way to retract? If you are implying that there is a correct and incorrect way to do it, can you elaborate there?
@@BrazosValleyStrength I think that what you and most people think when trying to retract shoulders is pushing your scapula as hard as you can with the typicall "like you where to hold a pencil with them", while it should be a gentle contraction just to move the scapulas. Also, it is not just pushing your blades like holding a pencil, you should add some depression too.
Sounds like you didn’t watch the video
Blud didt watch the video
I really appreciate the multitude of opinions and cues that you can get on this platform from those with experience to share… I just tried this and it seemed to be of benefit. Thanks
Been retracting my shoulders and it’s been driving me mad! Thank you for this video
Scapular retraction is to keep your shoulders from going into protraction or trying to keep your elbows from flaring too much in efforts to keep the rotator cuffs safe. Although, you bring up some great points I think retraction is necessary
How does retraction keep the rotator cuff safe? Also, why is flaring the elbows bad? You are going to hate to hear it, but flaring is good on bench.
Doing the overly back dominant thing when I was young resulted in such severe cramps I had to quit more than once.
Thanks for this, learned this the hard way after straining my pec a couple times
just want to make sure. this applies to dumbbells as well right?
I agree. It never made sense to me to squeeze my shoulder blades together. It feels very unnatural and is distracting. Thanks for this
Thank you for this! I've just started getting into lifting and have been feeling like i'm doing bench press all wrong because I can't keep my shoulder blades pinched when I push the weight up. It just feels super unnatural to me. So based on this video, I can start with my shoulder blades pinched but it's ok if they become unpinched on the way up?
Correct.
I start with them retracted and let them protract near lockout to shift the load to my shoulders.
I think starting with a flat back under near maximum loads is a very bad idea because literally every person I've ever seen destroy their shoulders starts their bench with a flat back.
Best explanation I’ve ever heard about this issue.
Personally I like to think about rowing the bar down, but afterwards on the way up, I don't use that cue anymore, so I never have the problem with my shoulders.
I never think about my shoulders during the bench
thank you so much for making this video. Legit an exact issue I had for so long.
U should have a pinch but you should paying attention to whether you are causing damage.
Keep the elbows down, slow and controlled reps, and keep the tension.
He is right but got the wrong idea of pinching. You should always pinch; that’s part of keeping the tension.
What you should not to is what he did here at 6:12 where the shoulders went moving up and elbows all to the side.
If you do it like that you’re going to hear all sorts of pops and grinds when you get up and make no mistake it can cause injuries and nerve damage.
You might not feel it for a few weeks or months of using this form and you might see great results from this form. But it is an ego lifting form and you won’t last long doing it. Trust me I learned the hard way.
"Pinch shoulderblades together" cue gives me some fucking jank shoulder pain when benching that I dont get without. I've been benching like this for a few months now, thought it was just "working out around an injury" but seems like its a better way to do it.
I agree with your vid. I saw one that mentioned to do it and I tried but it didn’t make sense when I felt my muscles they felt like they were combating each other because they’re antagonistic
This is interesting. I've been having shoulder issues ever since I got my power rack early this year. tons of clicking and popping, especially while trying to bench. I kinda assumed that my shoulders are bad and that i need to perfect my setup and do a lot of rotator cuff work. I can sometimes get a fairly click free set if I'm super tight and everything is in the perfect position. But I do wonder if I'm also just pulling things ouf of position. When I went to the gym as a teen I just benched and did everything poorly but had no issues. Now while I'm trying the hardest to do everything correctly I have the most issues. I had a crappy smith machine before and I dont think I had any shoulder issues. I just pushed the bar. It wasn't until I got my rack and tried to bench 'legit'. And now If I dont pull my shoulders back they are even worse. But I feel like I had no issues before.
That's because you ruined your shoulders over years of poor bench pressing technique and now that you're older it's gotten to the point where you can actually feel the effects
@@sumbitch3rdgen is that your expert opinion, doctor?
If its just popping and clicking its called audible crepitus and its not usually a sign of anything wrong. If you're experiencing pain with it you probably have some sort of impingement and should work on shoulder mobility exercises to make room for the tendon. Might could consult an actual doctor rather than morons like me and sumbitch up there, but I fixed my right shoulder with simple body and band exercises and its stronger than when I was a teen.
@@fenixchief7 moron or not, you are right with your recommendations. As a Physical therapist and personal trainer, I would start there, and see what happens after some exercises.
Now I know what is meant one should be not pushing the bar up but pushing into the bench. Aka using leg drive to keep the tension on the upper back but not worrying about retracting. It should be natural.
Makes sense because whenever I tried to unnaturally retract my shoulders it just felt so weird.
That would definitely simplify things for me a bit. Thank you
This man is a hero
its called shoulder packing and was said to protect your shoulders from the dangers of benching from what i remember. i too feel kinda stronger? when i dont do it
Did you not watch the video hahahahah
Think flater back the weight is more spread out, more weight directly under your shoulders, which is usually hanging off the bench. Squeeze shoulders together, "less spread out," and shoulders are more likely to be supported by the bench instead of hanging off because the weight is more towards the center of your back instead of spread out. This is definitely more stable if shoulders are retracted properly. With that said, it still develops problems because it reduces range of motion and improperly distributes weight. It's just not how your body was made to push. I can bench more if I retract shoulders but have fewer problems if I don't. I recommend not squeezing shoulders back as you say here in this video.
Really sounds like you didn’t watch the video….
@Brazos Valley Strength I did, i just disagree with the why, but I agree with the conclusion. Lol, totally like today's world, sees a disagreement as not listening, my wife is the same way.
I agree with your wife.
@Brazos Valley Strength The antagonist muscle argument would be valid if it functioned the same as a simple 2 directional movement. Like with the bicep, if you contract your tricep, then you're not going to be able to contract your bicep. Simple makes sense. The shoulders being contacted back don't prevent the entire tricep or pexs from contracting, just limits the contraction, shortens the rang of motion. Also, from my experience, I lift way more with the contacted shoulder than without, I no longer retract my shoulders and arch my back because I want to strengthen the entire muscle and move it the way it was meant to. When I fight or wrestle, I do not retract my shoulders because I would be less able to push and punch. This is true. My whole body, from my feet up are part of my punches and pushing movements, in a bench your not moving your whole body, and you can even limit muscle even further by body position, this approach would definitely not be recommended standing but laying down with a bench under your back this can make the lift easier, with only up and down movements to worry about you can over work the fewer muscles and less rang of motion to make the bench easier but causing imbalances. To say other wise is like saying it is harder to lift weight through a shorter range of motion... so answer this, is it easier or harder to lift a weight through a shorter range of motion. I speak from 10 years of bench experience. And also you can think of it like this, less shoulder injury because less total weight lifted? Jk. That last one was a jab. But again we should not contact the shoulders unless we competing. Also I am okay with being wrong, I am mostly speaking from my bodies experience, so maybe I'm just a weirdo. Also after almost 15 years I've come to the conclusion that my wife is usually right. 😆.
Also your shoulders being contracted and pulled down prevent squirming. Squirming is from inexperience.
I agree with the idea that obsession with protraction during the lift may be a problem. I retract my shoulder blades and squirm a lot during my set up in order to get into optimum position to unrack, but I've never had an issue at all with having to squirm around to keep the position once I've unracked. Two times I've developed shoulder issues from benching have both been from being unstable after unracking, and protracting shoulder blades has massively helped with that. I guess if I'm doing higher reps my upper back loses tightness, but I've never really thought about.
Did you just use the words “protraction” and “retraction” in the same exact manner? 🤦🏻♂️
Underrated channel
12:55 this is exactly why I won't stop doing this. 95% of people that have ever worked out do the arm spin thing or grab a rack and turn to stretch (neither as a warmup, but already in pain) or just straight up say "my shoulder is not feeling too good today". Not me 👌Could've just summed it up as legs stabilize you, and not having novice lifters thinking of trashing back cues
I don't understand
Hit 95kg and 2 weeks later injured my shoulder and chest due to ego and bad form since i was to excited to get stronger I decided to bench 90kg when my right shoulder was injured to bad form and struggling to retract
Great video David! I was hesitant at first but your explanation was on point. Looking forward to the how to bench press finalization.
Retraction shortens the ROM and stretches the pecs = stronger position. Lats are a prime mover if you arch sufficiently... pecs and lats both perform adduction at the shoulder.
I’d really like to hear how the lats are a prime mover here. Your lats pull towards your body. That is adduction but not at all in the same plane as your pecs, or more importantly the plane we need for the bar on bench.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I'd first ask if you acknowledge that the pecs and lats both work together on dips and decline presses because your elbows are being pulled closer to your hips during the movement. An arched bench press is much like a decline press. The pecs and delts do most of the work at the shoulder but the lats help as I just described. However, if your set up is flat as a pancake so the arms pull straight across the body, the lats are not a prime mover.
No I disagree with the logical leaps you are making wholeheartedly. Just because your elbows are close to your hips does not mean your lats are making that happen. By this logic, a row would have the pec be a prime move as well since there is adduction and protraction during the eccentric.
@@BrazosValleyStrength Look at the elbow position at the bottom of a dip vs at the top of the dip (completed rep). To lift yourself to the top of a dip, your elbows are pulled down towards your hips. That is adduction, and the pecs and lats both contract to make that happen. I chose the dip because it's more obvious than on an arched bench press but it's the same concept. If you can't see it, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
Bro what? You arm is coming from behind your body in a dip towards your hip. I have no idea how you can say your lat is doing that.
Scap retraction during bench will reduce load on the anterior shoulder though
Reduced ROM can do that for sure. So I would recommend checking out the other videos I referenced on how to do that in a productive way.
Switch to dumbbells and see how much stability you actually have in your torso.
Traps and rhomboids pull the arms back, in shoulder extension? No, they just retract the scapula. The traps and rhomboids are not antagonistic to the pressing muscles. The last, biceps, and rear delts are antagonistic.
I'm no expert by any means but I don't think anyone wants to tell you you are right or you are wrong. If you are an experienced lifter you may receive this information in a way that would have you perceive that what you are saying is wrong but too a beginner this information is perfect. It's just like Q's. I can tell someone to sit back on their heels and it will help them push with their midfoot/hold foot I could tell someone else the same thing and it could f****** their whole squat. You have very good content keep doing what you're doing you rock. Nothing you said was wrong. But like I said some people might take it as wrong because they're not perceiving it the way that you're explaining it.
I have gotten repetitive pec tendinopathy from trying to stay so retracted on my bench. It creates a lot of tension at the pec insertion when I'm overly retracted and over time it flares up.
I think focusing more on thoracic extension (in conjunction with leg drive) and staying relatively depressed in the scapula has helped me stay in "position" without the shoulder issues.
The cue for retraction 100% came from equipped side. When I was new into the RUclips fitness community about 5 years ago and digging into proper technique, Mark Bell was one of the more popular guys and always talked about squeezing a coin between your shoulder blades. He clearly came from the geared powerlifting side of things.
Is it pec minor tendinopathy by chance?
Dave, leg drive can be used to create an arch. This naturally creates shoulder depression instead of having to actively pull the shoulders down into depression. Is this correct?
Well sure. But we create a bigger arch by pulling hard into it. Depression is fine in the bench press. The video is specifically about retraction. But I think the majority of the people upset/confused in the comments confuse the feeling of depression and retraction.
@@BrazosValleyStrength Thanks for explaining. I want to teach my son a better way to press than I was taught. Maybe he can lessen the chance of shoulder issues. Thanks for this video and answering questions!!
Yea I would watch this video along with my leg drive video to get a good start on concepts. But I’ll have more important ones coming soon as well.
Hmm, refocussing my bracing has actually helped my shoulder a lot. I do feel like if I lose depression and retraction, my shoulder lets me know about it. However, I do mainly focus on it on the way down, so I may have subconsciously been doing this
these are really good pointers, and are put forth in a manner so easy to digest and understand!
Bench less, with better body mechanics. Better body development. I definitely agree.
Finally someone in powerlifting pointing out this. Should have told Matt Wenning as well.
Where does the idea that rhomboids and upper traps being antagonistic to the pec major come from?
Pec major works across the GH joint with no scapular attachments whereas rhomboids and traps work across the scapulothoracic with no huneral attachments. They dont influence each other in a direct way and arent truely antagonistic afaik.
Main point here actually is less about those specific muscles, and more so the actions. In my videos I really try to avoid evening getting too complex with minutia of the muscles. This video was sort of difficult to walk that line.
Mostly my point being here that the muscles that work to create retraction of the scapula and the action of pulling the arm back are extremely hard to differentiate. So it’s much more about the effort it takes to retract and how that affects the ability to press.
The pecs do protract the shoulder though which would be antagonistic. While we don’t need protraction, we shouldn’t be pulling our arms in the opposite direction of where we are trying to press.
@@BrazosValleyStrength hmmmm interesting.
Im more so under the impression that you can keep your scapula retracted without it hindering the pressing action at all as there are no actions involved in pressing from those specific muscles that antagonize each other.
I believe the pec minor does do protraction but it isnt a prime mover in the bench press sooo?
I dont doubt that some people do get so caught up with actively retracting that they cant connect with more important aspects of the lift, but ill have to disagree on how retracting the scapula will work against your pec majors ability to press.
I guess what im trying to say is pulling your scapula back doesnt have any effect on your ability to horizontally adduct at the GH joint, or extend at your elbows...
Maybe the best question to ask here is can we practically separate the action of recreating the scapula and pulling on the upper arm? That is the crux of the argument to me. My feeling is no.
And secondly, does retraction meaningfully add to pressing strength even if we can separate forces on the upper arm? Again my thought is no and then it becomes wasted physical/mental effort that can take way from efforts that add much more value.
@@VictorYTMusic811 No, holding retraction and into protraction inhibits the pec minor and inhibits extension and adduction of the bar. Kassem from N1 has a video on this subject at length from at least a year ago.
cant wait for the guide. Thank you!
1:51 thinking about bending the bar helped with activating my lats.
My bench rapidly increased to 238lbs (body weight 154lbs) when I retracted my shoulders, BUT I retract before the lift, descend, then protract with elbow flare on the way up. Like most things, the devil is in the detail and I’m not sure these details are covered. Hope this helps.
They absolutely are covered…. This is literally what I said in the video. But thanks for the help.
Except the protracting part. I said don’t do that. But thanks again.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I re-watched your video to make sure I didn't miss something. The message I got was not to either protract or retract and instead focus on leg drive and creation of arch, whilst avoiding retraction during concentric phase to avoid neuromuscular de-activation of pecs. Is this correct?
Yes. I don’t think I would even say the neuromuscular part though. Mostly just logically not to act against the bar and use cues that provide force against the bar. I would wholeheartedly disagree that actively protracting adds any value. And that if you are arching and using leg drive well there usually will be some retraction naturally.
Excellent video thank you:)
Just wanted to say I'm new to the channel and loving it bro.
Massively underrated & appreciate the content. Keep up the good work mate 💪
My understanding was its to put the shoulders in a favorable position (range of motion)
I overretracted for years and now I'm dealing with shoulder pain that refuses to go away. I only get it during horizontal pressing though. Vertical & dips are fine for some reason.
My right side is stuck in, what feels like, a constantly retracted state, so much that my right arm is visible "shorter" (not actual length, but because of the retraction) than my left. This is now my resting position. I can't contract my chest properly without feeling a tremendeous amount of tension in my shoulder, and doing the bench press motion with just my arms hurt.
Not sure what to do either. Focusing on more movement of the shoulder blades does not seem to help. Stretching is so frowned upon nowadays that I haven't even bothered with it. PT's in my small town are horrible and doesn't understanding lifting. Their advice is always "stop lifting" essentially.
My suggestion would be to keep doing pressing movements that you can, and that allow full ROM. Some things that have helped me overcome some pec pain is DB Pressing with some protraction at the top, loaded pushups with a slight deficit and full protraction, and any other machine that will allow that full comfortable movement. Sounds like you have tried a lot of things, so that may not help, but it might be a start. Good luck with it.
@@BrazosValleyStrength I might just have to dial everything back and really just emphasize the relative protraction of my right side.
DB's hurt, but pushups have worked semi-well for some time now. They hurt some days, and other days they're fine. Same with dips. Might be the last inch (or whatever) of protraction that I'm incosistent with, because if I don't actively focus on it, it does not happen.
The weird thing for me is that the pain is always in the deepest stretched positon, so I wonder how protracting more helps with that.
Check out MSK nuerology video on bench press cues. Think it will help you out
I always thought retraction was done to avoid shoulder anteversion in the stretched part of the movement. This is more evident in dips, if I dont retract, my shoulders instantly goes into anteversion. In the pushup, the natural pressing movement, we do retract in the lower part and protract in the upper part. Logically, we cant retract in the bench if we are movimg 225 or more, so people are told to retract at the start, we lose the benefits of protraction at the top tho but avoiding injury its a good cause.
That was what I always thought
As I said in the video, everything here adds on top of my other bench press set up videos. The point here is people are told to retract when they press, and that is dumb.
Actively retracting the scapula engages muscles that reciprocally inhibit the pecs... it makes ZERO sense to keep these muscles consciously engaged. It is ideal to have a starting position where your scapula are "down and back" with your serratus muscle engaged, which is assisted by the lats as a stabilizer, but of any of the muscles to focus on keeping locked in, it would be the Lats and the Serratus. If you can FEEL this area of the body stabilizing the bench press, then you are pushing from a good foundation. There is no need to squeeze any of your scapula retracting muscles.
My shoulders always hurt from benching pressing with a retracted scapula. But when I stopped retracting my scapula my shoulders doesn't hurt anymore. (but I still depress my scapula but I do not retract it)
Most cues in lifting are over generalized. Such as the over extension of the back when DLing and squatting. A normal hinge is enough. Aka neutral. People overcue the retraction in DLing also,in reality you just need to pin the lats. That engages it. When ppl actually retract the shoulderblades and DL its going to result in a loss of that position. Same with bench. I dont picture myself retracting the shoulder blades, but I do pin the lats and twist the bar and put my elbows at a slightly tucked angle. In the end, as long as your scapula and traps are planted and stable, thats all that matters. Actively trying to retract or over squeeze their shoulders just wastes energy imho.