@@mikebevan1034 Um… Picard needed to prove that Data was a sentient being (with a _right_ to exist), in order to save Data from being taken apart for reverse engineering. Picard challenged the commander to prove whether _Picard_ had sentience. Since the court could not explain how Picard was more sentient than Data, _both of them_ were dissected and examined.
I find this line in particular very well written. Picard, as an attorney, speaks from a inferior position admonishing the judge to carefully consider the consequences of her upcoming actions. to me this shows hat he values morality above hierarchy
@@dertyp3463 Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, judges don't really "make" laws, they just change or restrict existing laws by setting precedents and the legislative is there to add new laws.
@@Anon1gh3 you're partly right. Judges don't make laws but neither do they change or restrict them. That's all part of the legislative. Judges who are part of the judicative system decide when to apply which law to a specific circumstance
@@Anon1gh3 The answer is a little more complicated than implied above. Law cannot cover all circumstances in black and white terms anymore than it could have a rule written out for every scenario that occurs. Case law is what fills in the gaps. Where ambiguity exists in applying the law as it is written, judges can (and must) use their best judgement to decide on what laws if any have been broken, and what an appropriate punishment would be. When new or emergent situations are ruled on this establishes new case law on that scenario. Typically existing case law (how judges ruled in situations that are similar) aka precedent is quite persuasive if the judge you are presenting it to finds it a good parallel to the current situation. Of course judge's rulings can be contested, and sent to higher courts (even the highest court if it they feel like it's important enough to rule on), but they're very important. In this video the decision to consider data 'a living sentient creature' (I'm spitballing since we don't exactly have the letter of their law to work with) and so afford him universal rights (preventing his dismantling) would be a very strong precedent for any future AIGs. Of course Picard also waves the stick as well implying if data gets disassembled and replicated then the many AIG created from him will probably not look happily on the humans who denied them these rights. Realistically for all involved it's easier to avoid the Pandora's box we may all soon be facing.
"This manual, these... instructions. They are precise and ordered. But do you not see that before us are the raw materials of our existence, with which we could build a new design - if we dare to step outside our self-imposed... limitations. To use our... imaginations."
The way Picard slowly uses their own logic to make them implicitly admit they want to create a conveyer belt of slaves without using the word. No one does scripts like Star Trek
@@KaiserFritt0 Intelligent machine or intelligent person is absolutely the same.Not long ago the father of a child had the right to decide life or death and if not legally produce a clone of a person so it should be illegal to produce artificial intelligence as well as it would be used only as a slave.
I like how Data consoles Riker and puts his mind at ease aftewards: Data: Is it not true that had you refused to prosecute, Captain Louvois would have ruled summarily against me? Commander Riker: Yes. Data: That action injured you and saved me. I will not forget it.
@@Ezio999Auditore Not only did Data have to prove his sentience, thereby allowing him what should have already been his right not to be Maddox’s Guinea Pig, he also had to fight for his own reproductive rights. The plight of a 24th Century Fictional Character from a thirty+ year old (albeit amazing) Sci-Fi series sadly predicted what tens of millions of Americans are currently being denied in the 21st Century.
@@Ezio999Auditore Oh, you mean Data's daughter "Lal" in TNG "Offspring". Yeah, that was a very thought provoking episode too, with one really good gag. Lal forcibly kisses Riker just as Data walks in. "Commander, what are your intentions with my daughter?" Riker, looking like a deer caught in headlights, "Your daughter?... Uh... Nice to meet you," and runs off.
That would be so illegal in a real life court: Riker acting as prosecution, I mean. The conflict of interest is vast, and it's also cruel to force a friend to testify against a friend. As well, just the "ruled summarily against me" if Riker had refused, would definitely have gotten the JAG officer in real hot water.
Data had been given a Star Fleet Commission, a posting and quarters, he was not purchased, stored and deployed. At no point did Star Fleet acquire Data as property, but they did accept him as an employee. Star Fleet had tacitly admitted his sentience and autonomy years before and confirmed it with every subsequent action.
The fact is tacit admission isn't the same as legal definition. What makes this episode so good is that it's a test of Starfleet, and humanity's, ethical boundaries. It would be easy for a culture to disregard that tacit admission because it's inconvenient, so the question is whether humanity will rise to that calling or whether it will compromise in the face of an incalculably vast windfall. Imagine if every ship in Starfleet had a Data on it. It would be an advantage that no other force in the galaxy is equipped to handle. All through Season 1 of Trek Picard is telling Q and other species that Humanity has evolved beyond 20th century problems, but we it's all Telling with no Showing, which just makes the Season 1 cast look like a bunch of weenies. This episode is one of the first that really Shows it, IMO.
@@therealdanherrick3805 Yep you are right. Starfleet has been casually accepting Data's sentience and rights up to this point, but it had never been tested and legally defined in a court of law, or through statute. This set a solid confirmation within a court of his rights.
@@lsedge7280 It's almost inconceivable that in a multispecies polity like the Federation, and for an organization like Starfleet that seeks out new life and new civilizations as an ongoing project, that there isn't a legal definition for sentience and who legally speaking is considered a person with individual rights.
"Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well there it sits!" Picard dropped the mic so hard that it created a miniature gravity well. God damn.
Oh, so no need seeking alien life then because we can sinply splice or manipulated/mutate to create bew organism I personally don't feel the weight of this line
@@psycholaw4394 the point isn't that there's no need to seek out alien life, it's that Data IS alien life, and to disregard that fact and his right to life is a violation of everything Starfleet stands for.
@@psycholaw4394 The implications of the line was that based upon its own fundamental rules, Starfleet could not condemn Data to death as a machine. Data was a freely thinking and self aware individual. He constituted life, albeit in a never before seen way. Picard essentially said "if you kill Data, then you betray the fundamental rule of Starfleet just for potential personal benefit". They would be hypocrites for killing an alien individual just so they could mass produce it
Such incredible, subtle writing. Just how Picard refers to Data as "he/him" while Maddox unwaveringly calls Data "it" shows how differently they value him and view him.
You could see Maddox deliberately referring to Data as IT. Trying to convince himself that IT was all Data was, when he had come to see for himself, he was so much more.
What a great episode. No running phaser fights. No galactic peril. No warp core breaches. Just tight focused writing and acting. This whole series still stands today as some of the best written and best acted scripted television to ever air.
It's what was so utterly lacking in Picard. Every episode there had to drive forward some galactic peril. The perks of running a 30 episode season with TNG was that we could just savor in these types of episodes. My absolute favorite TNG episode is the inner light which has absolutely zero impact on any level in terms of the greater federation or starfleet but was just superb acting and writing.
@@robf8349 Inner Light had a direct impact on Picard though, and HE had an impact on the Federation and Starfleet. So technically, it did have an impact on both.
1) I agree with that sentiment 2) am I missing something? Wasn't there a thread of comments of a person trying to argue (poorly) that Data is not alive? I wrote two "essay" comments challenging them using Philosophy (namely the Problem of Other Minds).
Written by someone new to the show no less. Easily one of the best TV episodes of all time for me. Best of Both Worlds is a GREAT TNG episode...but this one and the Drumhead episode are some of the more impactful episodes.
You know, this whole trial could have been over in less than 5 minutes if Picard pointed out that by allowing Data to become a starfleet officer, the Federation has already aknowledged that he is a person and not equipment.
Lol trust me at least in the present day there is a strong tendency on the part of military branches to forget that their servicemembers are people and not equipment. No reason it should be any different in the future. :D
@@Nechrostriker4 If Starfleet found and re-activated Data, couldn't you make a salvage rights argument here? If Soong was dead and there is no next of kin (or if he was alive and abandoned Data) Starfleet may be allowed to claim Data.
@@InfernosReaper Automated Kill Lists effectively have command rank. A president signs off on those, sure, a blank cheque. But it's code that makes the decisions on whom to drop a drone strike on. That's already happening today. Since decades.
That first "Do You?!" When he turned didn't seem like he was talking to the judge he was talking to the audience it was haunting. The acting, the writing and direction in this scene is powerful.
You know, I just noticed that and I've seen this episode a dozen times, thanks for that. If you watch DS9's "In The Pale Moonlight" Sisko did the same thing while trying to justify his actions in bringing the Romulans into the war with the Dominion.
@@thetimebinderand now we stand on the edge of a great abyss, an abyss who’s flames, like the Balrog, will drag us down into the darkness of nuclear Armageddon.
Starfleet: Arguing whether or not Lt. Data is a living being. Also Starfleet: Regularly encounters and interacts with populations of sentient machines, living crystals, sapient clouds, intelligent stars, beings of pure energy...
have you not watched the video? by saying STARFLEET it's like you saying picard is arguin with ricker.. Bro he legit trying to explain a random dude what STARFLEET knows about whatever you just wrote
Its is a frustrating thing to observe as big fan of star trek. Constantly hearing about the compassion and understanding of starfleet/federation but watching synthetics and holograms being treat as mere technology.
@@ryanperez5457 only sufficiently complex holograms and AI, admittedly. There was the one episode where Data defended the nanmicrobot whatevers. Believing that they are sufficiently complex to be new life; perhaps even after this episode with heavy inspiration from the court ruling.
The argument is due to the fact that disassembling Data would produce fruitful results, at least in theory, for Starfleet. In encounters with any other form of life, pragmatism is not at stake and Starfleet does not feel compelled to debate the matter.
I really like how they portrayed Riker's character in this episode. It was pretty well written, he disagreed with the arguments against data personally but knew that to fulfill his duty he was obligated to go against his own personal feelings and felt extreme guilt because of it. Even more so that data reaches out to him at the end of the episode to thank him for doing it as it wasn't a betrayal but exactly what needed to happen for Data's hearing to be successful. Not all of star trek is well written, but episodes like this one and the other one called "Drum Head" really put a fine point on specific social problems our societies has and uses them to tell interesting stories.
So by this definition, not only is Data sentient, but the Doctor on Voyager is sentient as well. He is very intelligent. He is self-aware. He has consciousness. He has the ability to make friends and express himself creatively. He can think for himself. He feels pain and guilt and indeed even love. Therefore, by the good Captain's defense, he IS alive.
They in fact covered a similar episode with the Doctor from Voyager. He published a book and went to court because he was getting screwed because as a hologram he didn’t have any rights.
Dude. They had an entire episode of Voyager dedicated to the Doctor losing his entire sanity after he had to make a terrible decision. Their only solution is to wipe the memory, but his picture taking HOBBY lets him Sherlock his way back to discovering what happened, and he loses it again. The episode ends uniquely....! Latent Image, Star Trek: Voyager Season 5, Episode 11
They shelved the case of holograms being sentient, who are made with light and projections unlike androids, who are much more complex for good reason or another. But the court was openminded enough to acknowledge the Doctor because he created art, but I’m sure they unofficially felt more
In DS9, Dax and Odo found an entire village of people made with a hologram and a dying projector. When they turned it off for repairs, apparently one living being is living amongst the holos He then said that its over and he is old and dying anyway and he should stop the fantasy. Odo argues that they are alive and real to him.. and that's all that matters DS9 S2 E16 : Shadowplay
One of the greatest scenes in all of Trek. The dialogue perfectly sums up the argument of free will vs. slavery. The man being questioned doesn't get enough credit for how uncomfortable he is upon realizing he may have been mistaken. He really sold it as did everyone in this scene.
Very, very good. But next to Patrick... he was pretty unnatural on 'hundreds... thousands if necessary'. He made the right choices for the delivery, it just wasn't clean. How many takes did he get? Did the editors just choose a bad one? Ah well, he proved himself throughout the rest of the scene anyway.
As incredible as this scene is, Data's self awareness to understand Riker's turmoil at the end hits harder to me. Nothing from this moment, just Data's humanity at the end makes this such a phenomenal episode
@@jacevicki And yet I can understand why the judge forced him to do so. SOMEONE needed to represent the other side of the argument, otherwise it could not possibly be a fair hearing. The judge was absolutely right, the only way to get this done fairly, and for all time, was to force someone to represent Maddox. without an advocate for the other side the procedure will get thrown out as invalid and the decision will be made far away by people she doesn't trust to get it right. And Riker's was the very best mind she had access to so it had to be him whether he liked it or not, so that she can say to any official or bureaucrat who disputes the finding, "we had 2 of Starfleet's finest officers representing either side of the case, one was the great Jean-Luc Picard and the other was his protegee, Will Riker. do you dare to say that either client was poorly represented?" Fortunately Data didn't hold a grudge but Riker sure did for awhile. I can't even imagine how much it hurt Riker, who is driven to win, to know that victory in this case smelt like his friend getting torn to pieces. And to still have to seek victory with everything he had.
He was the opposition... he had to argue that data was a machine of I recall. He even turned him of a made a reference to puppet and strings. Riker thinks of Data as a friend, but he had a job to do, and he did it to the letter. That is a smile of a man who hated having to do his best, but was happy to lose. He knew he couldn't fight back... and was relieved his friend would be ok.
Maddox's line of argumentation is circular in two different ways. Note how he establishes three criteria for sentience: 1. Intelligence 2. Self-wareness 3. Consciousness. When Picard asks him "Why am I self-aware?" , he answers: "Because you are conscious of your existence and actions". Maddox equates self-awareness with consciousness here, basically admitting that there are not three criteria, but only two. He then adds: "You are aware of yourself and your own ego." So self-awareness means being self-aware. That doesn't explain a whole lot.
It's been the same for all bigots. Circular reasoning. They enter conversations with a firm answer, and then rationalize it backwards to justify having arrived at the answer from the very beginning. There is no room for change, they refuse it. I do too, at times; but only because things like personhood are not up for debate.
I think that's the point of science fiction, fantasy, and fiction in general. Fiction writers use lies to tell the truth. They tell fake stories that never happened in universes that never existed and yet use it to explore the reality of the human condition.
@@LordRunolfrUlfsson It's not supported by history, no, but TNG paints an optimistic view of the future. A lot of what Picard does here wouldn't happen in historical courtrooms outside of fictional courtroom dramas. Even then, it'd be predictable in those kinds of dramas for the opposite counsel to interject with, "Objection! Relevance?" or something along those lines in response to, say, Picard asking Maddox whether he likes Data or when he begins elaborating on the philosophical and even political concepts that are being handled in this trial. Historically, many justice systems have even been blatant about the fact that they're not places of genuine righteousness or even whole truth, but rather are tools of society to maintain a tolerable semblance of peace, fairness, and credibility. Yet, in the Federation depicted in this scene, they don't shy away from questions of perennial truth, moral character, and lasting justice. Maddox's personal judgment of Data can't be divorced from the proceedings. The matter of what defines sentience is relevant. The moral precedent that this trial sets is important. The Federation isn't such a bright depiction of humanity's future because of replicators or transporters, it's bright because of men with the integrity, compassion, and industry of people like Captain Picard, who came before him and work alongside him to make up a society that strives towards truth, beauty, and greatness in ways big and small. As much as I disagree with Roddenberry and certain things the show has provided advocacy for, I strongly agree with this and other aspects of the future society that they've portrayed. In Star Trek at its best, the courtroom can be called a crucible without it being blind hubris, but rather a genuine principle that a noble society chooses to work to uphold.
@@Supahpowahnerd890 And one could say that without the courtrooms of the future being focused around the concepts of perennial truth, moral character, and lasting justice, then that future would not really be considered a utopia. After all, much of our current failings is precisely due to how we treat our laws. The legal system is divorced from true justice, always will be, but it is the intentions of that legal system, and the degree of separation between it and what the people holds up as true justice in their hearts, that decides the difference between a good future, and a sad one.
@@NYCZ31 Then why is Lt. Data not still an ensign? Or did Starfleet grant him that rank immediately after he passed the academy seeing that his talents would be wasted going up through the ranks?
I love how the score bides its time until the dialogue reaches a fever pitch, then swells for emphasis, and then vanishes. This episode just plain beautifully constructed.
Wasn't written in the writers room. This was a fan script that was sent in and later picked up due to the writer's strike. Melinda Snodgrass, who wrote it, later became a writer on the show.
@@wrorchestra1 thats really cool! l I looked it up, the other writers left four episodes later, leaving her the sole writer on staff for the rest of the season!
awareness and consciousness are different tho. self-awareness is simply having the information that you are an individual who has a body or form. I could program a little machine that's a box with eight sensors on its corners and tell it that those sensors are the bounds of its body, they're each 80 millimeters apart, and that anything which activates those sensors is something other than it, and it would be self-aware. Consciousness is thought, it's abstraction, the presence of a voice in your head that allows you to create and innovate. You can be aware that you have a self, and still lack consciousness.
@@TheNaturalnuke The concept of a "voice in your head" still applies to people who can't hear. They have an internal monologue, it just manifests in a different way - usually either as writing or sign language.
@@littlesnowflakepunk855 fittingly, consciousness is vague, poorly defined, and nigh-impossible to test or measure, especially with how intricately connected it is to other aspects of intelligence (memory, self-awareness, pattern recognition, social understanding, info application, etc), meaning we can't confirm it's existence in species that are not us, furthering the belief of human exceptionalism, the bedrock that at least the society I live in is founded on.
This was kind of the moment when TNG started to become its own thing. TOS had episodes with legal proceedings ("The Menagerie," "Court Martial," "The Deadly Years," etc) but this episode takes that premise and hands it over to Sir Patrick FREAKING Stewart. Not only that, but there isn't any otherworldly, hard-to-grasp threat or pissy guest characters on the line, but a major regular characters' life and personal rights. This is when TNG became a show in its own right.
When this was new Trek, it was not regarded well compared to old Trek. The Next Generation had plenty of haters that compared it with TOS back in the 80s. It seems to be a vicious cycle in Sci-Fi shows. The new show comes along, fans of the previous one say its better. Then the new one comes along, and suddenly the previous one is good compared to the new one and on and on and on. All the while, new fans attach themselves to the new show, adding to the fanbase who go back and rewatch everything and the show continues to evolve.
@@Trikeboy2 Wellll except that TNG became popular and loved very quickly. Sure folks would say they like the old trek better but they tuned into TNG every week! TNG had excellent ratings ran for a long time because it was GOOD. No one ever said TNG was crap, just that TOS was better. (which was always a fun argument to have) See the difference? After years on the air, the New Treks have just terrible ratings and lose money. The highest praise I have ever heard is for the new treks are, "they are not THAT bad". (damning praise indeed) They look like absolute crap to me -- just BAD writing. (I feel bad for the actors who have to try and make a living with such crap writing) So no, that does not compare to prior Treks and how fans reacted to them. See the difference? "All the while, new fans attach themselves to the new show, adding to the fanbase" STD was the lowest-rated show on the air last year. What new fans? One other difference. TNG did not deliberatly shit all over TOS.
I do love how ‘yeah I’m done with this fool’ Picard gets in this scene. He gets so quietly furious about someone daring to wish to dismantle one of his people.
David Shapiro sent me! This episode should be required viewing for people before making arguments as to whether AI is sentient or not. Elevated arguments are great, but so many people are arguing on such a basic level, their arguments would be defeated by Picard’s statements in this episode alone.
This is my first real introduction to Star Trek in any significant amount. I've never seen anything of it before today beyond small bits of trivia and parodies. If this is what kind of content and themes this show covers then I truly want to see all of it. Consider me won over.
Both this and the original Star Trek series (1966-1969) are awesome shows. Very good writing. And wait until you see the more intense action-driven episodes or the more emotional ones. You're in for something really good.
@@thalanoth Well I've been watching Next Gen. I don't binge shows though, I watch them periodically throughout the year so I don't run out of the show quickly. I've seen a lot of this show now. Plus some of the other series and now I'm fully aware of why Star Trek is so popular. I originally thought it was a goofy sci fi show but it's really well written and it's clear it was a job the actors went all out for. I'm glad I started watching.
@@The-Game-Merchant The re-watchability is off the charts, you will never run out between TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home is easily the best movie (come at me nerds); cheers.
"Your honor, the court room is a crucible; in here, we burn away irrelevance until we are left with one pure product: the truth, for all time " My GOD what a line
love how Cylons are depicted as curious children in mature physical bodies that in general regard humans as savage polytheists with no regard for the mystery in their religion
Completely different situation. Diplomacy with the Cylons was not possible until they were convinced they had something to lose by continuing their war with humanity, and their combination of religious zealotry and hard-line suppression of dissent made such impossible until those in charge were removed from power, which they couldn't be, because they'd just resurrect.
This was, on the whole, a REALLY good episode. But I think my favorite part is the epilogue. Riker is sitting by himself while everyone else is celebrating that the court ruled in Data's favor. Data goes over to Riker and asks him something to the effect of why he's over there, and Riker says he almost won the case and didn't feel he belonged with Data's friends and stuff. Then Data, in a very Human way, says to Riker something like "If you had not done what you did, make the case as strong as you could, at great personal pain and distress to you; then I would have been given over for dismantling. You suffered greatly on my account, against your desires and will, and that ended up saving my life. You are the one person who absolutely belongs, and perhaps my greatest friend for the suffering you inflicted on yourself on my behalf." ...something to that general effect. It was really the greatest moment in the entire episode to me, even more than "Prove to the court that I am sentient", which I also thought was very good. I feel like Picard's appeal to emotion and to "future cases" was wrong here, since that shouldn't be what decides a case, the merits should. But I really liked how he turned the question around. "Prove I am sentient" "Well, everyone KNOWS you're sentient" "Nope, not good enough - lay out the criteria for sentience and let us see if Data meets it or not."
This show was so far ahead of its time. Always loved seeing Picard poke holes in people and their arguments. Episodes involving Data and his humanity were some of the best.
Considering Starfleet allowed Data to enlist, it necessarily recognizes him as a sentient being. Otherwise his commission would be null and void and thus he would not be subject to Starfleet law.
Not precisely. If they revoked his comission on grounds that he isnt a person even after having given him a comission, he would likely then be considered to be abandoned property or equipment and claimed as salvage. He would still be subject to starfleet law, with no possible protections of his rights.
@@metamorphicorder stolen property since it was Starfleet that removed him from the private property of his creator. And in this case under false pretenses which included recognition of his sentience.
@@darkmadbat_ ummm ignoring for a moment that he was found essientially in the rubble of a destroyed colony, his initial acquisition would be considered salvage or even recovery of federation property even if by proxy, or in absentia given that his creators were presumed dead, even though soong was still alive, he made no noticable attempt to rectify that impression nor claim his property in a timely manner. Assuming that omicron theta was a federation colony and under its protection and administration, any and all remaining property would be covered under the applicable laws and protocol. Very likely data and associated items would be administered under the established inheritance laws, perhaps only the personal items, if soong was involved in federation funded research, the results of that would likely be considered the property of the federation by default. If it wasnt, then perhaps data and associated items would be part of the soong estate, which might be in trust of the federation until a next of kin could be found if any. It could have been declared material of scientific importance and held for preservation and study by the federation. While it is tempting to judge an established legal system by external moral codes, and it is definitely appropriate to do so in real life, for the purposes of the story here, it remains better to look at it through the known or likely laws of the federation at the time. Now the way to really attack my argument is to question if data was originally admitted into the federation as a person, arguing that only an actual person is given a serial number, rank, has recorder their name and is afforded the same or similar privileges and rights that any other person would be; or was he given those things as an honorary construct, by virtue of his singular but still merely mechanical and programtic capacity? It would be the easiest way to determine it. And one that would heavily advantage the defense most likely, because if they had accepted data into service as equipment, it wouldn't have ever been a question, they would know it. The answer would be no, this item has an item number, a maintenance record, history of use, etc. Or he has a comission like a person.
@@metamorphicorder you literally argued that my argument was faulty and that if I wanted to argue against your point you told me to make the argument I made. Data was removed from the colony as a person. As my reply stated. He was necessarily given all those things you list to be be able to actually enlist in Starfleet. Removing his status retroactively would, as I said would have invalidated any claim they could have had to treat him as salvage since they removed him not as an object but as a person. His removal was under false pretenses and would be considered looting. They made little to no effort to establish a chain of custody on the grounds he was presumed sentient and granted rights accordingly.
Could you expand? I've watched entire TOS and now I'm watching TNG (about to start season 3) after that I want to watch DS6 (also star trek, hears it's really good). What's good to watch from star trek and what is not in your opinion?
@@adrianmach7952 Watch DS9, it's an intelligent take on Star Trek with added darkness. Voyager is hit and miss, the early episodes are better, entertaining overall with some really good episodes. Enterprise is not bad, not really my thing, but most people say it's pretty good. After that it's all garbage, with a reliance on explosions and action, little regard for character building, lots of plot holes and feels more like its going for a generic sci-fi story, with no regard to philosophy, moral quandaries, or character building.
I remember this episode. Damn I miss this show And he’s absolutely right. If there’s a chance, you have to err on the side of caution. You wouldn’t blow up a building if it was “probably empty”
You'd think that. I fear nowadays we are at the point of "guilty so long as the mob believes so". It doesn't matter if you are innocent, or if there is a chance you are innocent. What matters is public opinion now. so long as enough people are prematurely convinced of your guilt the verdict will follow. Rather ten innocent men die than one guilty be set free instead of ten guilty go free than one suffer wrongly.
Big @#$%ing deal. Most Vulcans can do that with a human. Picard: Long, eloquent speech, raising several valid and thought-provoking points Riker: Flip da power switch lul Vulcan: And your point being...?
Maybe his argument was a sharade all the time. His task was to prove that Data was no life form, all he did was prove he isn't human, something that Picard could easily dismiss.
In a conversation with Phillipa Louvois at the conclusion to the trial, Maddox refers to Data as "he" ... It really cements the change that the character underwent during this episode
This right here is one of the core purposes of science fiction. We don't have androids or AI that could even possibly be self-aware intelligent beings --YET. But it's very conceivable, likely even, that one day we will. And we will have to struggle with questions like this one. Through stories like this, we conduct thought exercises into scenarios that might one day come to pass and prepare ourselves for the decisions we'll have to make and the way we'll need to adapt our lives to the changes that will come. Through this sort of science fiction, we anticipate what the future may hold and the problems and challenges that may arise, and prepare for them.
Actually, Science Fiction, more than anything, exists to depict MODERN problems through a veneer of futurism. We are having this problem right now. There are many Datas in every society across the planet, whose personhood is either not recognized, or "legally" recognized, but not enforced.
Essentially, this debate boils down to "what makes a pile of sand a pile instead of just a group of sand crystals". Really what makes us human instead of just a collection of neurons and nerves
yeh, good episode but i still cant believe in such a universe how this was even a conversation. like anyone in that universe in star fleet would see data as much of a mechanical machine as seeing people as biological machines. the probs could have also added that just like a replicator cant create life it cant replicate a data.
Essentialy, this debate boils down to you assuming that humans and other percepting animals are nothing more than aggregates of their material parts. When the fact is they aren't and biologists agree that reductionism wrt human cognitive functions is doomed.
You can't even use physics to distinguish such events like awareness and not awareness, it's not a science capable of it. And I'm pretty sure I'm aware of my surroundings, you may be in denial of it when you argue that animals are just piles of particles.
@@McRingil lots of animals. Have simple brains like flys, search food fly to food. Mate repeat. But dolphins and monkeys show degrees of sentience. The issue rn is we dont have the technology communicate but in star trek they do.
No they didn't nore knows what Star Trek was even about. It's what happens when new management comes in and screws all the work and vision in to a Dystopian Nightmare.
This is why I love classic trek, no flashy battles here, no saber rattling. This is the kind of philosophical debate that no level of technology or societal advancement will truly answer and we're doomed to argue about until the end of time
Not a single laser fired nor explosion caused, yet these 4 minutes had more tension than a whole season of modern Trek. There are no villains in this episode, just individuals with their own reasoning and motivations. You can respect everyone's point-of-view even if you don't agree with them. Powerful performances all round and wonderfully written - a sign of many great episodes to follow.
I imagine Riker's never been so happy to have failed an assignment before, especially one that forces him to go against his beliefs, his conscience and what he felt was a betrayal of a friend.
@@jamesspring4610 I was just gonna comment that same thing - I can imagine this is one of the only times in Riker's career that he's happy to have done his best and lost.
"And will we be judged by how we treat That Race?" I saw this in a video comparing this to STD and that line absolutely floored me Our collective awareness of what's the right answer in social issues is so young in comparison and we live through such hard times we never seriously consider how we may be seen by history for actions and choices we make long before we have passed on
There was a channel which mostly was just dozens of videos (may be hundreds by now) of all the retconning in the new stuff. STP also shat on all the similar episodes with the Doctor.
THIS is the scene that shows Picard. Out of all of the adventures of bravery and wit, this is the defining moment. This speech is what sets him apart from all other captains.
Exactly, certainly when they were coming up with the history of the Morning War, can almost guarantee that they watched this scene and thought "what if it went the other way?" and then went from there. It's even in the name the quarians gave them, the Khelish word for "servant of the people". Honestly, if not for Tali and Zaal'Koris, I'd side with the geth every time lol
@@godoflemmings17 Because that one Admiral (the male sounding one that was leading the charge) pissed me off so much, I once hard saved after having laid the groundwork for mutual existence, and then damned the Quarians last second. It turns out, committing genocide out of spite does not feel as satisfying as it first seems. Fine, I will continue to be more Para and less 'gade.
"Won't we be judged by how we treat that race". 32 Years later...Picard... To be clear, I can't watch all of Picard(w/o illegal means) but the free episode that I saw did exactly what Picard feared. It's also why I haven't watched the new series. Probably a cliffhanger I should watch that explains it, but after the first episode. If Q comes back to wipe humanity off the face of the Universe, I wouldn't hate him. Maybe even reverse it to the alt universe(JJ Abrams version). In the show at least*
This hearing was bogus from the begining. Based on precedance, Star Fleet has acknowledged Data as a being by procuring his services as a Star Fleet officer.
I think there's at least an argument to be made. I mean ships are chattels but they're commissioned, they serve, earn commendations, and are highly honored when they're lost or decommissioned. Despite treating machines with such respect, they're still just property. Starfleet could argue that Data was a machine discovered completely abandoned and pressed into service fulfilling the role of a Starfleet officer, but that he was still just property.
This is an instance of using the court to test a previous decision. While Data was accepted and commissioned the question of whether he was actually sentient was never asked and thus never adjudicated. The very fact that he was given a hearing with legal counsel showed that Starfleet was still treating him as a person, giving him the de facto rights to jurisprudence, the hearing was to determine if he should be stripped of those rights because they were improperly given.
You don't dress your computer in an officer's uniform. You don't give your roomba a fully furnished room of it's own. They considered him Sentient all the way up until they wanted to use him for something he denied.
@@RaxusXeronos well Remmic didn't ant to and as I understood it, up until this hearing the question was never really addressed so not specifically defined by law. Certainly a lot of Star Fleet personnel just went with Data a person because he looks and acts like one without ever truly addressing the question. And it was Picard who challenged the ruling and the transfer orders.
I love how scenes like this in the show really drive home how exceptional Picard can be as a leader rather than how 'dumb' the other side is. Picard has to defend his position with great valiance and it helps the audience not feel pandered to for the lesson.
I really like the second half of his argument. It's easy to think sacrificing a single android for the development of science is a good decision, but to doom an entire race to slavery gives a completely different feeling to the problem.
"Your Honor, a courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevances until we are left with a pure product, the truth, for all time." Political ideologues and demagogues: "I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that."
Makes you wonder why certain democracies tolerate a system that allow politicians, who are by their very nature partisan, to appoint judges. It's almost as though the game is rigged 🤔
That’s the ideal, but frequently, to the point of certainty, it’s almost never like that. I think Star Trek is too idealist and ignores how people actually act.
@@bloodyidit4506 Well, I think that's part of Picard's character. He is a liberal (in the classical, European sense) idealist who would have fit in well among French intellectuals during the "Enlightenment". Indeed, the self-congratulatory name of the Enlightenment also matches Picard's view on the progress and maturity of humanity.
Picard was proven right in this episode, but Starfleet didn't listen. 20 years later, they created mindless automatons that resembled Data but forced to be a slave race, ignoring Picard's warning. Maddox though eventually saw the error of his ways and not only improved upon Data, created a true race of androids with Dr Soong.
There's also the chronologically earlier case of the Emergency Medical Hologram on the Voyager, which indicates that in the Star Trek universe a holographic program can gain consciousness once it's accumulated enough runtime. If I remember correctly there's a book that elaborates that when the Voyager returns to the Alpha Quadrant it turns out that the EMH Program was recycled into creating holographic miners, who find out about the Doctor and rebel against their slavery. The whole moral quandary is very interesting and one of the reasons I love Star Trek, and it pokes some interesting holes into the utopia of the Federation.
@@ObsidianKnight90 it's the mark 1 the other more advanced programs made by professor Zimmerman are still in use. In fact they might have already achieved consciousness from the first time they are booted. Doctor got his consciousness thorough experience and the mark ll and mark lll may have got it in thier programming.
20 years later? There's no canonical source material for that timeline. I'd really like for a new star trek show continuing where DS9 left off, maybe a decade or so later.
He used in this scene an argument that is called proving by contradiction. If you set conditions for something to be or not be something and you have difficulty providing it it is or isn't, try to prove the contrary. If you run in a condition like in this scene: to be sentient, you need to be intelligent, conscious and self aware. Try to prove he isn't all of those, he is clearly intelligent, has demonstrated self awareness and seems to have individuality. So he can't be considered non sentient.
You know what's scary? What would Data done if the commander had _asked_ him to volunteer, instead of go the aggressive route? What if he had made a passionate case for what he could accomplish with Data's help? Data's proven an interest in the future of the android race on multiple occasions, and proven his selflessness many more. What would he say to the opportunity to progenitor the next generation of androids?
would data be willing to assist in R&D of this nature? Most likely. I don't see him agreeing to partake in the experiment no matter how nicely he was asked, at least at this stage of research.
In a later episode ("Data's Day" I think it's called - highlight episode btw) it is explained that Data and Cmdr Maddox are in regular correspondence regarding Maddox' research. Data is naturally intrigued.
True test of a person is the ability to go against instructions and to make them. To be irrational at times. To hope when probability is 0. To choose the lesser against the many. If it cannot be irrational, then it is just a slave or an executor. To be subject and aware of an end.
We’re probably going to at some point maybe we could cause of a Detroit become human scenario or worse a mass effect scenario and our response to the question of am i a person or am I alive will doom our species either to a fate similar to the quarians as we are driven from our home and forced to live amongst the stars or a yet another bloody revolution as we are inclined to move forward as a species yet again we all know war and conflict will never end but this may be one fight for the first time humanity can actually avoid I love a good philosophical debate
We're having it. These kind of shows and stories are the most layman versions of very real philosophical debates between experts. Of course, we'll never end the debate until we actually make true AI and can decide on facts. But until then we are trying to define the best criteria to decide, once the time comes.
Thoughtful dilemmas such as this were the backbone of Star Trek practically since the beginning, but DEFINITELY in Jean Luc Picard's era. One can only hope that once the deranged chimps holding the IP get the boot that someone is willing to go back to this. We could do with some more of it.
Even now, all these decades later, I'm still impressed with the skill of the writers for Mr. Stewart's part and with his top-notch acting chops turning that writing into the person of Captain Picard. Not only, in my opinion, is it the best writing in Star Trek, but some of the best writing in general for a television series.
If this were Discovery, everyone would be yelling and having a hissy fit, Burnham would take it upon herself to destroy all of his research and life's work to satisfy her own opinion and then it would turn out he was an evil android from the mirror universe's future that was using advanced holo technology to hide his twirled moustache. This would take place over 12 episodes.
@@mikeymcmikeface5599 in the show, which is named after the character the guy Patrick Stewart plays in it looks like has this *huge* hate towards/fear of androids, because of a single incident that happened around the time the Romulan homeworld was blowing up. It's all very strange given this episode of TNG and a few other things.
Back when Star Trek respected your intelligence. :( Pretty sure the people running the show nowadays regard fans with even less respect than captain Maddox has for Data.
Remember when Star Trek used to be intelligent? When mature, dangerous or life-changing situations could be initiated and resolved by words and sincerity not loud brash action scenes? Remember when Picard was respected, a force to be reckoned with? I miss that.
Possibly the single greatest scene in the history of Star Trek, and it contains no spaceships at all. Says everything you need to know about what REALLY made this franchise great.
Sir Patrick Stewart is a national treasure. I've been so fortunate to see him on stage twice, and he is a truly magnificent performer, captivating in stillness, spellbinding in madness. The integrity he brought to the role of Picard was a true backbone of the show, and it's all seen in these four minutes. Incredible writing, mastered by one of the greats.
Me: Time for some beans and trek.
This channel: **more than 300 videos on st**
Nice
Watch seven seasons of TNG, 5 minutes at a time.
gonna need more beans.
This nwahs eatin' beans!
Whew I forgot ho powerful Picard could be whith his words.
@@Default_Defect wasn’t expecting a Morrowind reference in this Star Trek thread
And this is why a Shakespearian actor was such a brilliant choice to play a Starfleet Captain.
Always is. William Shatner, Shakespearean Actor, Avery Brooks, Shakespearean Actor, Kate Mulgrew, Shakespearean Actress.
He initially tried the character in a French accent as requested and everyone said, ‘eh...no.’
How true that is,good comment
@@sgtlamancha805 Heh... Then they should have gotten a Frenchmen. XD
@@kjadfhgioaudbfvilaeu 😆 it took an Englishman to properly portray a French Starfleet Captain
Picard: Prove I am sentient!
Court: fails to do so
Picard: later disassembled alongside Data.
Ironclad logic
It could be said he disassembled the court first.
Can you explain what you mean by this? Thanks!
@@mikebevan1034 Um… Picard needed to prove that Data was a sentient being (with a _right_ to exist), in order to save Data from being taken apart for reverse engineering. Picard challenged the commander to prove whether _Picard_ had sentience.
Since the court could not explain how Picard was more sentient than Data, _both of them_ were dissected and examined.
@@mikebevan1034 What he meant to say was, what the dog doin?
“You wanted to seek out intelligent life, WELL THERE IT SITS!”
Greatest line in TNG.
boom
New life, but yes
Although it might have been even better as "Well there he sits!"
@@Sentientism ‘It’ refers to ‘new life’
@@teleportedbreadfor3days Yep - that's very clear given how consistently Picard uses "him" to refer to Data throughout.
"You wanted to make law, well, make it a good one." This episode truly exemplifies Asimov's vision of roboticism. Well played, writers!!
I find this line in particular very well written. Picard, as an attorney, speaks from a inferior position admonishing the judge to carefully consider the consequences of her upcoming actions. to me this shows hat he values morality above hierarchy
@@dertyp3463 Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, judges don't really "make" laws, they just change or restrict existing laws by setting precedents and the legislative is there to add new laws.
@@Anon1gh3 you're partly right. Judges don't make laws but neither do they change or restrict them. That's all part of the legislative. Judges who are part of the judicative system decide when to apply which law to a specific circumstance
@@dertyp3463 Thanks.
@@Anon1gh3 The answer is a little more complicated than implied above. Law cannot cover all circumstances in black and white terms anymore than it could have a rule written out for every scenario that occurs.
Case law is what fills in the gaps. Where ambiguity exists in applying the law as it is written, judges can (and must) use their best judgement to decide on what laws if any have been broken, and what an appropriate punishment would be. When new or emergent situations are ruled on this establishes new case law on that scenario. Typically existing case law (how judges ruled in situations that are similar) aka precedent is quite persuasive if the judge you are presenting it to finds it a good parallel to the current situation.
Of course judge's rulings can be contested, and sent to higher courts (even the highest court if it they feel like it's important enough to rule on), but they're very important. In this video the decision to consider data 'a living sentient creature' (I'm spitballing since we don't exactly have the letter of their law to work with) and so afford him universal rights (preventing his dismantling) would be a very strong precedent for any future AIGs. Of course Picard also waves the stick as well implying if data gets disassembled and replicated then the many AIG created from him will probably not look happily on the humans who denied them these rights. Realistically for all involved it's easier to avoid the Pandora's box we may all soon be facing.
Stewart could act out ikea assembly instructions and be riveting
"This manual, these... instructions. They are precise and ordered. But do you not see that before us are the raw materials of our existence, with which we could build a new design - if we dare to step outside our self-imposed... limitations. To use our... imaginations."
He could read the phone book and people would be fascinated haha
...oooh I see what you did there!
You don't need a riveting gun for Ikea furniture. It'll come with an Allen key.
You could probably get the damn things together with him narrating you.
"By god...his skin...this is spray paint! He's been just a man all this time!"
Makes disassembling bit a tad awkward
😂
Even after removing the paint and revealing the skin is he truly known to be sentient
That would make his mathematical talents much more impressive.
lmfao
Genius insight from Guinan that saved the case:
This isn't just a case for sentience. It's a case against slavery.
Off topic to the video, but it's always a joy seeing you pop up in comment sections of videos
The way Picard slowly uses their own logic to make them implicitly admit they want to create a conveyer belt of slaves without using the word.
No one does scripts like Star Trek
@@KaiserFritt0 Intelligent machine or intelligent person is absolutely the same.Not long ago the father of a child had the right to decide life or death and if not legally produce a clone of a person so it should be illegal to produce artificial intelligence as well as it would be used only as a slave.
Wowee!
Oh man, mr. autism cat, I thought I couldn’t like you more and then this!
I like how Data consoles Riker and puts his mind at ease aftewards:
Data: Is it not true that had you refused to prosecute, Captain Louvois would have ruled summarily against me?
Commander Riker: Yes.
Data: That action injured you and saved me. I will not forget it.
"You're a wise man, my friend"
"Not yet, sir. But with your help, I am learning"
This and the Lau episode were wild.
@@Ezio999Auditore Not only did Data have to prove his sentience, thereby allowing him what should have already been his right not to be Maddox’s Guinea Pig, he also had to fight for his own reproductive rights.
The plight of a 24th Century Fictional Character from a thirty+ year old (albeit amazing) Sci-Fi series sadly predicted what tens of millions of Americans are currently being denied in the 21st Century.
@@Ezio999Auditore Oh, you mean Data's daughter "Lal" in TNG "Offspring". Yeah, that was a very thought provoking episode too, with one really good gag.
Lal forcibly kisses Riker just as Data walks in.
"Commander, what are your intentions with my daughter?"
Riker, looking like a deer caught in headlights, "Your daughter?... Uh... Nice to meet you," and runs off.
That would be so illegal in a real life court: Riker acting as prosecution, I mean. The conflict of interest is vast, and it's also cruel to force a friend to testify against a friend. As well, just the "ruled summarily against me" if Riker had refused, would definitely have gotten the JAG officer in real hot water.
Data had been given a Star Fleet Commission, a posting and quarters, he was not purchased, stored and deployed. At no point did Star Fleet acquire Data as property, but they did accept him as an employee. Star Fleet had tacitly admitted his sentience and autonomy years before and confirmed it with every subsequent action.
Yeah i feel like this conversation should have happened a long time ago.
The fact is tacit admission isn't the same as legal definition. What makes this episode so good is that it's a test of Starfleet, and humanity's, ethical boundaries. It would be easy for a culture to disregard that tacit admission because it's inconvenient, so the question is whether humanity will rise to that calling or whether it will compromise in the face of an incalculably vast windfall. Imagine if every ship in Starfleet had a Data on it. It would be an advantage that no other force in the galaxy is equipped to handle.
All through Season 1 of Trek Picard is telling Q and other species that Humanity has evolved beyond 20th century problems, but we it's all Telling with no Showing, which just makes the Season 1 cast look like a bunch of weenies. This episode is one of the first that really Shows it, IMO.
@@therealdanherrick3805 Yep you are right. Starfleet has been casually accepting Data's sentience and rights up to this point, but it had never been tested and legally defined in a court of law, or through statute. This set a solid confirmation within a court of his rights.
@@lsedge7280 It's almost inconceivable that in a multispecies polity like the Federation, and for an organization like Starfleet that seeks out new life and new civilizations as an ongoing project, that there isn't a legal definition for sentience and who legally speaking is considered a person with individual rights.
@@jarowan they may well have that, but it's plausible it didn't explicitly cover 'machines' (or purely manufactured sentient organisms).
"Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well there it sits!"
Picard dropped the mic so hard that it created a miniature gravity well. God damn.
Oh, so no need seeking alien life then because we can sinply splice or manipulated/mutate to create bew organism
I personally don't feel the weight of this line
@@psycholaw4394 the point isn't that there's no need to seek out alien life, it's that Data IS alien life, and to disregard that fact and his right to life is a violation of everything Starfleet stands for.
@@psycholaw4394 The implications of the line was that based upon its own fundamental rules, Starfleet could not condemn Data to death as a machine. Data was a freely thinking and self aware individual. He constituted life, albeit in a never before seen way. Picard essentially said "if you kill Data, then you betray the fundamental rule of Starfleet just for potential personal benefit". They would be hypocrites for killing an alien individual just so they could mass produce it
@@psycholaw4394 great strawman, too bad everyone can see the straw
@@psycholaw4394 you assume too much, he just said that sentient life is anywhere as long as it's able to tell that it is so..
Such incredible, subtle writing. Just how Picard refers to Data as "he/him" while Maddox unwaveringly calls Data "it" shows how differently they value him and view him.
I noticed that, too.
I feel like he also spits Maddox’s words back in his face when he says “there it sits.”
You could see Maddox deliberately referring to Data as IT. Trying to convince himself that IT was all Data was, when he had come to see for himself, he was so much more.
I've only ever seen something similar in Detroit Become Human. Both amazing pieces
@@alexandrebouchard1018 ...In what world is anything that talentless hack David Cage an "amazing piece"?
What a great episode. No running phaser fights. No galactic peril. No warp core breaches. Just tight focused writing and acting. This whole series still stands today as some of the best written and best acted scripted television to ever air.
Absolutely
This is my second favorite episode.Darmok...
This is my favorite TNG episode, my favorite ST episode, and certainly in the running for just my flat out favorite episode of any show.
It's what was so utterly lacking in Picard. Every episode there had to drive forward some galactic peril. The perks of running a 30 episode season with TNG was that we could just savor in these types of episodes. My absolute favorite TNG episode is the inner light which has absolutely zero impact on any level in terms of the greater federation or starfleet but was just superb acting and writing.
@@robf8349 Inner Light had a direct impact on Picard though, and HE had an impact on the Federation and Starfleet. So technically, it did have an impact on both.
"Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life, well THERE IT SITS!" fucking beautiful writing. They don't make shows like this anymore
1) I agree with that sentiment
2) am I missing something? Wasn't there a thread of comments of a person trying to argue (poorly) that Data is not alive? I wrote two "essay" comments challenging them using Philosophy (namely the Problem of Other Minds).
@@GethIng001 can you explain the problem of other minds please? it sounds very interesting
@@lifesymbiont5769 I think the idea that we can't prove that anyone else is conscious.
Written by someone new to the show no less. Easily one of the best TV episodes of all time for me. Best of Both Worlds is a GREAT TNG episode...but this one and the Drumhead episode are some of the more impactful episodes.
This whole scene is just amazing.
You know, this whole trial could have been over in less than 5 minutes if Picard pointed out that by allowing Data to become a starfleet officer, the Federation has already aknowledged that he is a person and not equipment.
Even if Data *was* considered property, he certainly isn't property of Starfleet's. Though assumed dead, Soong was still alive by this point
Lol trust me at least in the present day there is a strong tendency on the part of military branches to forget that their servicemembers are people and not equipment. No reason it should be any different in the future. :D
@@Nechrostriker4 If Starfleet found and re-activated Data, couldn't you make a salvage rights argument here? If Soong was dead and there is no next of kin (or if he was alive and abandoned Data) Starfleet may be allowed to claim Data.
@@Bearmauls Perhaps, but you don't give property *command rank* though
@@InfernosReaper Automated Kill Lists effectively have command rank. A president signs off on those, sure, a blank cheque. But it's code that makes the decisions on whom to drop a drone strike on. That's already happening today. Since decades.
That first "Do You?!" When he turned didn't seem like he was talking to the judge he was talking to the audience it was haunting. The acting, the writing and direction in this scene is powerful.
You know, I just noticed that and I've seen this episode a dozen times, thanks for that.
If you watch DS9's "In The Pale Moonlight" Sisko did the same thing while trying to justify his actions in bringing the Romulans into the war with the Dominion.
"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of Wisdom." -Gandalf the Grey
And he was played by a close friend of Sir Patrick Stewart, Sir Ian McKellan.
Cries in particle physics
@@thetimebinderand now we stand on the edge of a great abyss, an abyss who’s flames, like the Balrog, will drag us down into the darkness of nuclear Armageddon.
Starfleet: Arguing whether or not Lt. Data is a living being.
Also Starfleet: Regularly encounters and interacts with populations of sentient machines, living crystals, sapient clouds, intelligent stars, beings of pure energy...
have you not watched the video? by saying STARFLEET it's like you saying picard is arguin with ricker.. Bro he legit trying to explain a random dude what STARFLEET knows about whatever you just wrote
Pesky Borg .
Its is a frustrating thing to observe as big fan of star trek. Constantly hearing about the compassion and understanding of starfleet/federation but watching synthetics and holograms being treat as mere technology.
@@ryanperez5457 only sufficiently complex holograms and AI, admittedly. There was the one episode where Data defended the nanmicrobot whatevers. Believing that they are sufficiently complex to be new life; perhaps even after this episode with heavy inspiration from the court ruling.
The argument is due to the fact that disassembling Data would produce fruitful results, at least in theory, for Starfleet.
In encounters with any other form of life, pragmatism is not at stake and Starfleet does not feel compelled to debate the matter.
I like how the only one that seems happy here is Riker. He knows Picard just stopped him from killing Data.
He's never been so happy to lose an arguement as right then.
I really like how they portrayed Riker's character in this episode. It was pretty well written, he disagreed with the arguments against data personally but knew that to fulfill his duty he was obligated to go against his own personal feelings and felt extreme guilt because of it. Even more so that data reaches out to him at the end of the episode to thank him for doing it as it wasn't a betrayal but exactly what needed to happen for Data's hearing to be successful.
Not all of star trek is well written, but episodes like this one and the other one called "Drum Head" really put a fine point on specific social problems our societies has and uses them to tell interesting stories.
When is Riker ever not happy tho. He's the man
But you can't kill what isn't alive 😉
@@zreeder21 you haven't seen this episode have you
So by this definition, not only is Data sentient, but the Doctor on Voyager is sentient as well. He is very intelligent. He is self-aware. He has consciousness. He has the ability to make friends and express himself creatively. He can think for himself. He feels pain and guilt and indeed even love. Therefore, by the good Captain's defense, he IS alive.
They in fact covered a similar episode with the Doctor from Voyager.
He published a book and went to court because he was getting screwed because as a hologram he didn’t have any rights.
Dude. They had an entire episode of Voyager dedicated to the Doctor losing his entire sanity after he had to make a terrible decision. Their only solution is to wipe the memory, but his picture taking HOBBY lets him Sherlock his way back to discovering what happened, and he loses it again. The episode ends uniquely....! Latent Image, Star Trek: Voyager Season 5, Episode 11
They shelved the case of holograms being sentient, who are made with light and projections unlike androids, who are much more complex for good reason or another. But the court was openminded enough to acknowledge the Doctor because he created art, but I’m sure they unofficially felt more
In DS9, Dax and Odo found an entire village of people made with a hologram and a dying projector. When they turned it off for repairs, apparently one living being is living amongst the holos
He then said that its over and he is old and dying anyway and he should stop the fantasy.
Odo argues that they are alive and real to him.. and that's all that matters
DS9 S2 E16 : Shadowplay
Don't forget the time Doctor "dreamed". That was a great episode!
One of the greatest scenes in all of Trek. The dialogue perfectly sums up the argument of free will vs. slavery. The man being questioned doesn't get enough credit for how uncomfortable he is upon realizing he may have been mistaken. He really sold it as did everyone in this scene.
Agreed! The actor who played Maddox did a fantastic job.
Very, very good. But next to Patrick... he was pretty unnatural on 'hundreds... thousands if necessary'. He made the right choices for the delivery, it just wasn't clean. How many takes did he get? Did the editors just choose a bad one? Ah well, he proved himself throughout the rest of the scene anyway.
“Are you prepared to condemn him… and _all who come after him,_ to slavery and servitude?” Is a truly terrifying line.
Remember when Star Trek was deeply philosophical instead of just bland lasers and explosions?
Pepperidge Farms remembers.
I miss those days :'(
@@DD2225 hands over the Internet!
@@DD2225 ya know, I was gonna put that at the end of my comment but decided not to
Nowadays too many people are mesmerized by CGI and things that go pew pew.
Most of the very best scenes in TNG is Picard in a room talking.
As incredible as this scene is, Data's self awareness to understand Riker's turmoil at the end hits harder to me. Nothing from this moment, just Data's humanity at the end makes this such a phenomenal episode
@@seraphroy Riker apologizing before turning Data off was great as well. You can see it crushing him to argue that his friend isn't a person.
Q: “Jean-Luc Picard. Sometimes I think the only reason I come here is to listen to these wonderful speeches of yours.”
@@jacevicki And yet I can understand why the judge forced him to do so. SOMEONE needed to represent the other side of the argument, otherwise it could not possibly be a fair hearing.
The judge was absolutely right, the only way to get this done fairly, and for all time, was to force someone to represent Maddox. without an advocate for the other side the procedure will get thrown out as invalid and the decision will be made far away by people she doesn't trust to get it right.
And Riker's was the very best mind she had access to so it had to be him whether he liked it or not, so that she can say to any official or bureaucrat who disputes the finding, "we had 2 of Starfleet's finest officers representing either side of the case, one was the great Jean-Luc Picard and the other was his protegee, Will Riker. do you dare to say that either client was poorly represented?"
Fortunately Data didn't hold a grudge but Riker sure did for awhile. I can't even imagine how much it hurt Riker, who is driven to win, to know that victory in this case smelt like his friend getting torn to pieces. And to still have to seek victory with everything he had.
No cap.
Riker's little smile at the end of the video makes the scene. Never was he more happy to be honestly beaten.
He was the opposition... he had to argue that data was a machine of I recall. He even turned him of a made a reference to puppet and strings. Riker thinks of Data as a friend, but he had a job to do, and he did it to the letter.
That is a smile of a man who hated having to do his best, but was happy to lose. He knew he couldn't fight back... and was relieved his friend would be ok.
Maddox's line of argumentation is circular in two different ways. Note how he establishes three criteria for sentience:
1. Intelligence
2. Self-wareness
3. Consciousness.
When Picard asks him "Why am I self-aware?" , he answers: "Because you are conscious of your existence and actions".
Maddox equates self-awareness with consciousness here, basically admitting that there are not three criteria, but only two.
He then adds: "You are aware of yourself and your own ego."
So self-awareness means being self-aware. That doesn't explain a whole lot.
Maddox just wanted to cut data up to satisfy his ego. After that outburst the case should have been tossed and Maddox relived of his position.
It's been the same for all bigots. Circular reasoning. They enter conversations with a firm answer, and then rationalize it backwards to justify having arrived at the answer from the very beginning. There is no room for change, they refuse it.
I do too, at times; but only because things like personhood are not up for debate.
@@achannel7553 How do you know it's sentient if they don't show it to others? Unless you're in the development team, that's quite the claim.
It's just showing how difficult sentience is to define
This show isn't about weird aliens, it's about humanity
Every alien exists to hold up a mirror to some aspect of humanity.
Damn true. 😄
I think that's the point of science fiction, fantasy, and fiction in general.
Fiction writers use lies to tell the truth. They tell fake stories that never happened in universes that never existed and yet use it to explore the reality of the human condition.
weird humanity*
Always has been.
"Your honor, a courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product: the truth, for all time."
That's good.
A good courtroom argument, but not one supported by history.
@@LordRunolfrUlfsson It's not supported by history, no, but TNG paints an optimistic view of the future.
A lot of what Picard does here wouldn't happen in historical courtrooms outside of fictional courtroom dramas.
Even then, it'd be predictable in those kinds of dramas for the opposite counsel to interject with, "Objection! Relevance?" or something along those lines in response to, say, Picard asking Maddox whether he likes Data or when he begins elaborating on the philosophical and even political concepts that are being handled in this trial.
Historically, many justice systems have even been blatant about the fact that they're not places of genuine righteousness or even whole truth, but rather are tools of society to maintain a tolerable semblance of peace, fairness, and credibility. Yet, in the Federation depicted in this scene, they don't shy away from questions of perennial truth, moral character, and lasting justice.
Maddox's personal judgment of Data can't be divorced from the proceedings.
The matter of what defines sentience is relevant.
The moral precedent that this trial sets is important.
The Federation isn't such a bright depiction of humanity's future because of replicators or transporters, it's bright because of men with the integrity, compassion, and industry of people like Captain Picard, who came before him and work alongside him to make up a society that strives towards truth, beauty, and greatness in ways big and small.
As much as I disagree with Roddenberry and certain things the show has provided advocacy for, I strongly agree with this and other aspects of the future society that they've portrayed.
In Star Trek at its best, the courtroom can be called a crucible without it being blind hubris, but rather a genuine principle that a noble society chooses to work to uphold.
@@Supahpowahnerd890 And one could say that without the courtrooms of the future being focused around the concepts of perennial truth, moral character, and lasting justice, then that future would not really be considered a utopia. After all, much of our current failings is precisely due to how we treat our laws. The legal system is divorced from true justice, always will be, but it is the intentions of that legal system, and the degree of separation between it and what the people holds up as true justice in their hearts, that decides the difference between a good future, and a sad one.
@@matasa7463 Exactly.
That's very good
Next Gen at its best! This got fed to me randomly.
Woah, didn’t expect to see you here. Glad to know that you are a man of culture as well!
My most viewed clip, the algorithm is sending it all over... had countless people say they have never seen TNG and now they plan to! 🖖
Like beans.
"Starfleet was founded to seek out new life, well THERE. IT. Sits... waiting."
One of my top 5 picard moments for damn sure.
A race of beings as capable as Data wouldn't stay slaves for long
BORG have entered the Chat o.o
Agreed, just imagine the chaos if 1000 data’s decided they were at war. They would make skynet look like a bunch of amateurs
Data’s nature precludes certain things such as ambition.
@@NYCZ31 Um... Have you met Lore?
@@NYCZ31 Then why is Lt. Data not still an ensign? Or did Starfleet grant him that rank immediately after he passed the academy seeing that his talents would be wasted going up through the ranks?
Sir Patrick Stewart was a classical trained actor and this scene shows his skill so well.
was?
is*
and I hope that 'is' ages like a fine wine.
Is* He's very much alive.
He doesn't have a Knighthood, simpleton.
@@Erin-bc8icin part the type of classes and methods used and as an aside the type of works performed like Shakespeare.
Captcha's get pretty intense in the future
I love how the score bides its time until the dialogue reaches a fever pitch, then swells for emphasis, and then vanishes. This episode just plain beautifully constructed.
You failed to properly describe the grey of the walls
I wish I was a fly on the wall as the writers came up with this. One of the truly wonderful speeches in the show.
Delivered by the perfect actor.
It is, but the scene feels overacted, particularly on the scientist being interrogated. (obviously directed to do so)
Wasn't written in the writers room. This was a fan script that was sent in and later picked up due to the writer's strike. Melinda Snodgrass, who wrote it, later became a writer on the show.
@@wrorchestra1 Hmmm I could run with this one concerning current writing on related shows .. but I'll hold back.
@@wrorchestra1 thats really cool! l
I looked it up, the other writers left four episodes later, leaving her the sole writer on staff for the rest of the season!
"Why am I self aware?"
"Because you're conscious of your--"
"No, no. That's your third criterion. Or is awareness and consciousness the same thing?"
awareness and consciousness are different tho. self-awareness is simply having the information that you are an individual who has a body or form. I could program a little machine that's a box with eight sensors on its corners and tell it that those sensors are the bounds of its body, they're each 80 millimeters apart, and that anything which activates those sensors is something other than it, and it would be self-aware. Consciousness is thought, it's abstraction, the presence of a voice in your head that allows you to create and innovate. You can be aware that you have a self, and still lack consciousness.
@@littlesnowflakepunk855 your criteria for consciousness excludes the deaf….
@@TheNaturalnuke maybe sign language
@@TheNaturalnuke The concept of a "voice in your head" still applies to people who can't hear. They have an internal monologue, it just manifests in a different way - usually either as writing or sign language.
@@littlesnowflakepunk855 fittingly, consciousness is vague, poorly defined, and nigh-impossible to test or measure, especially with how intricately connected it is to other aspects of intelligence (memory, self-awareness, pattern recognition, social understanding, info application, etc), meaning we can't confirm it's existence in species that are not us, furthering the belief of human exceptionalism, the bedrock that at least the society I live in is founded on.
This is my Star Trek. There will never be a better version.
This was kind of the moment when TNG started to become its own thing. TOS had episodes with legal proceedings ("The Menagerie," "Court Martial," "The Deadly Years," etc) but this episode takes that premise and hands it over to Sir Patrick FREAKING Stewart.
Not only that, but there isn't any otherworldly, hard-to-grasp threat or pissy guest characters on the line, but a major regular characters' life and personal rights.
This is when TNG became a show in its own right.
The writing of old Trek with the powerhouse cast is just extraordinary.
I miss old Trek.
The new Picard series took a big steamy dump on this episode.
We all miss it.
When this was new Trek, it was not regarded well compared to old Trek. The Next Generation had plenty of haters that compared it with TOS back in the 80s. It seems to be a vicious cycle in Sci-Fi shows. The new show comes along, fans of the previous one say its better. Then the new one comes along, and suddenly the previous one is good compared to the new one and on and on and on. All the while, new fans attach themselves to the new show, adding to the fanbase who go back and rewatch everything and the show continues to evolve.
@@Trikeboy2 Wellll except that TNG became popular and loved very quickly. Sure folks would say they like the old trek better but they tuned into TNG every week! TNG had excellent ratings ran for a long time because it was GOOD. No one ever said TNG was crap, just that TOS was better. (which was always a fun argument to have)
See the difference?
After years on the air, the New Treks have just terrible ratings and lose money. The highest praise I have ever heard is for the new treks are, "they are not THAT bad". (damning praise indeed) They look like absolute crap to me -- just BAD writing. (I feel bad for the actors who have to try and make a living with such crap writing) So no, that does not compare to prior Treks and how fans reacted to them.
See the difference?
"All the while, new fans attach themselves to the new show, adding to the fanbase"
STD was the lowest-rated show on the air last year. What new fans?
One other difference. TNG did not deliberatly shit all over TOS.
@@robjohnson8522 hi condescending asshole, my point still stands though. When Next Gen came out, people complained it wasnt the same as TOS.
I do love how ‘yeah I’m done with this fool’ Picard gets in this scene. He gets so quietly furious about someone daring to wish to dismantle one of his people.
Also ‘to seek out new life, well *THERE* *IT* *SITS*.
“I got no more use for this guy” - My Cousin Vinny
@@CLxJames Son of a bitch, stole my line.
David Shapiro sent me! This episode should be required viewing for people before making arguments as to whether AI is sentient or not. Elevated arguments are great, but so many people are arguing on such a basic level, their arguments would be defeated by Picard’s statements in this episode alone.
This is my first real introduction to Star Trek in any significant amount. I've never seen anything of it before today beyond small bits of trivia and parodies. If this is what kind of content and themes this show covers then I truly want to see all of it. Consider me won over.
Same
Both this and the original Star Trek series (1966-1969) are awesome shows. Very good writing. And wait until you see the more intense action-driven episodes or the more emotional ones. You're in for something really good.
So what's your verdict after 2+ years of this comment?
@@thalanoth Well I've been watching Next Gen. I don't binge shows though, I watch them periodically throughout the year so I don't run out of the show quickly. I've seen a lot of this show now. Plus some of the other series and now I'm fully aware of why Star Trek is so popular. I originally thought it was a goofy sci fi show but it's really well written and it's clear it was a job the actors went all out for. I'm glad I started watching.
@@The-Game-Merchant The re-watchability is off the charts, you will never run out between TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise.
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home is easily the best movie (come at me nerds); cheers.
"Your honor, the court room is a crucible; in here, we burn away irrelevance until we are left with one pure product: the truth, for all time " My GOD what a line
To bad modern courts aren't more like that.
@@zerogrey3798 Too bad modern movies and series aren't more like that.
Not just the line but the masterful delivery!
@@zerogrey3798 They weren't back then either.
@@papanurgle8393more so then than now
I bet Captain Picard could have brokered peace between humans and Cylons.
love how Cylons are depicted as curious children in mature physical bodies that in general regard humans as savage polytheists with no regard for the mystery in their religion
Completely different situation. Diplomacy with the Cylons was not possible until they were convinced they had something to lose by continuing their war with humanity, and their combination of religious zealotry and hard-line suppression of dissent made such impossible until those in charge were removed from power, which they couldn't be, because they'd just resurrect.
He could have brokered peace between matter and anti-matter.
I very much doubt it; both are fictitious.
Kirk would had been able to do it too...by shagging every female Cylon around.
This was, on the whole, a REALLY good episode. But I think my favorite part is the epilogue. Riker is sitting by himself while everyone else is celebrating that the court ruled in Data's favor. Data goes over to Riker and asks him something to the effect of why he's over there, and Riker says he almost won the case and didn't feel he belonged with Data's friends and stuff.
Then Data, in a very Human way, says to Riker something like "If you had not done what you did, make the case as strong as you could, at great personal pain and distress to you; then I would have been given over for dismantling. You suffered greatly on my account, against your desires and will, and that ended up saving my life. You are the one person who absolutely belongs, and perhaps my greatest friend for the suffering you inflicted on yourself on my behalf."
...something to that general effect. It was really the greatest moment in the entire episode to me, even more than "Prove to the court that I am sentient", which I also thought was very good.
I feel like Picard's appeal to emotion and to "future cases" was wrong here, since that shouldn't be what decides a case, the merits should. But I really liked how he turned the question around. "Prove I am sentient" "Well, everyone KNOWS you're sentient" "Nope, not good enough - lay out the criteria for sentience and let us see if Data meets it or not."
This show was so far ahead of its time. Always loved seeing Picard poke holes in people and their arguments. Episodes involving Data and his humanity were some of the best.
Considering Starfleet allowed Data to enlist, it necessarily recognizes him as a sentient being. Otherwise his commission would be null and void and thus he would not be subject to Starfleet law.
Not precisely. If they revoked his comission on grounds that he isnt a person even after having given him a comission, he would likely then be considered to be abandoned property or equipment and claimed as salvage.
He would still be subject to starfleet law, with no possible protections of his rights.
@@metamorphicorder stolen property since it was Starfleet that removed him from the private property of his creator. And in this case under false pretenses which included recognition of his sentience.
@@darkmadbat_ ummm ignoring for a moment that he was found essientially in the rubble of a destroyed colony, his initial acquisition would be considered salvage or even recovery of federation property even if by proxy, or in absentia given that his creators were presumed dead, even though soong was still alive, he made no noticable attempt to rectify that impression nor claim his property in a timely manner. Assuming that omicron theta was a federation colony and under its protection and administration, any and all remaining property would be covered under the applicable laws and protocol. Very likely data and associated items would be administered under the established inheritance laws, perhaps only the personal items, if soong was involved in federation funded research, the results of that would likely be considered the property of the federation by default. If it wasnt, then perhaps data and associated items would be part of the soong estate, which might be in trust of the federation until a next of kin could be found if any. It could have been declared material of scientific importance and held for preservation and study by the federation. While it is tempting to judge an established legal system by external moral codes, and it is definitely appropriate to do so in real life, for the purposes of the story here, it remains better to look at it through the known or likely laws of the federation at the time.
Now the way to really attack my argument is to question if data was originally admitted into the federation as a person, arguing that only an actual person is given a serial number, rank, has recorder their name and is afforded the same or similar privileges and rights that any other person would be; or was he given those things as an honorary construct, by virtue of his singular but still merely mechanical and programtic capacity? It would be the easiest way to determine it. And one that would heavily advantage the defense most likely, because if they had accepted data into service as equipment, it wouldn't have ever been a question, they would know it. The answer would be no, this item has an item number, a maintenance record, history of use, etc.
Or he has a comission like a person.
@@metamorphicorder you literally argued that my argument was faulty and that if I wanted to argue against your point you told me to make the argument I made. Data was removed from the colony as a person. As my reply stated. He was necessarily given all those things you list to be be able to actually enlist in Starfleet. Removing his status retroactively would, as I said would have invalidated any claim they could have had to treat him as salvage since they removed him not as an object but as a person. His removal was under false pretenses and would be considered looting. They made little to no effort to establish a chain of custody on the grounds he was presumed sentient and granted rights accordingly.
Amazing that you managed to type this all with one hand missing 😂
they based an entire season of Picard on this episode and I'd still rather watch this one
But then there wouldn't be lasers and explosions and a gory scene of Icheb's eye being ripped out
@@rhettorical we got Star Wars for that, not Star Trek. Subtle difference in the name.
They didn't watch the episode though apparently, since STP starts with a robot slave revolt that should've been possible if robot slavery was illegal
My family watched the first episode and said it was terrible. My dad tried to watch the entire series and couldn’t get through three episodes
it has its moments, just like Discovery does. But they'll have to do better than that.
That pause before, "...my life," that is good acting and even good mode of operation. Know when to pause for making a delivery.
This scene alone is better than all post-Enterprise Star Trek. Bring back the great writers and producers!
Could you expand? I've watched entire TOS and now I'm watching TNG (about to start season 3) after that I want to watch DS6 (also star trek, hears it's really good). What's good to watch from star trek and what is not in your opinion?
@@adrianmach7952 Watch DS9, it's an intelligent take on Star Trek with added darkness.
Voyager is hit and miss, the early episodes are better, entertaining overall with some really good episodes.
Enterprise is not bad, not really my thing, but most people say it's pretty good.
After that it's all garbage, with a reliance on explosions and action, little regard for character building, lots of plot holes and feels more like its going for a generic sci-fi story, with no regard to philosophy, moral quandaries, or character building.
Gene is dead.
In the Pale Moonlight from DS9 begs to differ. DS9 was the last Trek worth a damn.
They had the highest writer turnover in the business during this. It was pure BS behind the scenes. No idea how they pulled this off
I remember this episode. Damn I miss this show
And he’s absolutely right. If there’s a chance, you have to err on the side of caution. You wouldn’t blow up a building if it was “probably empty”
You'd think that. I fear nowadays we are at the point of "guilty so long as the mob believes so". It doesn't matter if you are innocent, or if there is a chance you are innocent. What matters is public opinion now. so long as enough people are prematurely convinced of your guilt the verdict will follow. Rather ten innocent men die than one guilty be set free instead of ten guilty go free than one suffer wrongly.
@@thegrim418 quite true. There is an episode from The Orville that portrays a satire precisely of what you are saying. A world of likes and dislikes.
Unless you're the US military or any of it's allies lol
@@Fluxquark or the unborn
@Sam Wallace lol
Captain Picard: *Long, eloquent speech, raising several valid and thought-provoking points*
Riker: *Flip da power switch lul*
Big @#$%ing deal. Most Vulcans can do that with a human.
Picard: Long, eloquent speech, raising several valid and thought-provoking points
Riker: Flip da power switch lul
Vulcan: And your point being...?
@@Skruddgemire *Raises phaser* I can turn you off too XD
Whack Riker on the head. 😏
Maybe his argument was a sharade all the time. His task was to prove that Data was no life form, all he did was prove he isn't human, something that Picard could easily dismiss.
That’s an oversimplification of his argument as a whole, not that Picard didn’t eloquently debunk the rest of it as well.
TNG wasn't just about the exploration of space. But of the exploration of the human condition. This episode nailed "How do you define sentience?"
Riker has never looked so happy to have had his ass so soundly kicked. lol
I just love that line "You wanted a chance to make law, well here it is. Make it a good one."
I love the small differences, Picard calls Data "him"
while the other commander calls Data "it"
In a conversation with Phillipa Louvois at the conclusion to the trial, Maddox refers to Data as "he" ... It really cements the change that the character underwent during this episode
He is a male of his species. Not an object.
And no one called him "she". ... Even though that would have opened up another side battleground in this philosophical examination.
@@KopperNeoman That's the point of the episode, yes
@@KopperNeoman he's a male? Are you sure about that? Do androids in this world reproduce sexually?
Court proves Picard's sentience.
Picard removed face showing he is an android.
Ultimate plot twist of the defense.
This right here is one of the core purposes of science fiction. We don't have androids or AI that could even possibly be self-aware intelligent beings --YET. But it's very conceivable, likely even, that one day we will. And we will have to struggle with questions like this one. Through stories like this, we conduct thought exercises into scenarios that might one day come to pass and prepare ourselves for the decisions we'll have to make and the way we'll need to adapt our lives to the changes that will come.
Through this sort of science fiction, we anticipate what the future may hold and the problems and challenges that may arise, and prepare for them.
Actually, Science Fiction, more than anything, exists to depict MODERN problems through a veneer of futurism. We are having this problem right now. There are many Datas in every society across the planet, whose personhood is either not recognized, or "legally" recognized, but not enforced.
Question: "what is self-awareness?"
Answer: "it is awareness of self."
Me: "Wait a minute..."
Ironically, humans are barely aware of themselves.
@@tahunuva4254 true story, sadly
@@tahunuva4254 - Who man?
@@mathewhale3581 yumun
Humans can't even figure out the difference between XX and XY chromosomes
The main trouble with Federation technology is there are no mic's to drop.
He could just drop one of the billion iPads floating around, since those are apparently needed in the far future
He could drop his communicator. 😄
@@Dowlphin >rips the communicator off his shirt and just drops it with an angry look
@@Amaroq64 thats like saying you quit the job lol by dropping your badge...
This might be one of the best written scenes in any show, ever.
0:12 "Prove to the Court that I'm sentient." I love the way Picard says that. It gets me every time 🤣
Essentially, this debate boils down to "what makes a pile of sand a pile instead of just a group of sand crystals". Really what makes us human instead of just a collection of neurons and nerves
yeh, good episode but i still cant believe in such a universe how this was even a conversation. like anyone in that universe in star fleet would see data as much of a mechanical machine as seeing people as biological machines. the probs could have also added that just like a replicator cant create life it cant replicate a data.
In a universe with the freaking Borg you'd think the idea of removing the flesh component wouldn't be too large of a leap.
Essentialy, this debate boils down to you assuming that humans and other percepting animals are nothing more than aggregates of their material parts. When the fact is they aren't and biologists agree that reductionism wrt human cognitive functions is doomed.
You can't even use physics to distinguish such events like awareness and not awareness, it's not a science capable of it.
And I'm pretty sure I'm aware of my surroundings, you may be in denial of it when you argue that animals are just piles of particles.
@@McRingil lots of animals. Have simple brains like flys, search food fly to food. Mate repeat. But dolphins and monkeys show degrees of sentience. The issue rn is we dont have the technology communicate but in star trek they do.
I sometimes wonder if the writers on Picard even watched this show.
Only sometimes?
Kurtzman doesn't have time for that, nor did any of the other 20 or so producers.
No they didn't nore knows what Star Trek was even about. It's what happens when new management comes in and screws all the work and vision in to a Dystopian Nightmare.
They quickly skimmed the Memory Alpha page.
We think the same thing about the creators of the Star Wars Sequels.
This is why I love classic trek, no flashy battles here, no saber rattling. This is the kind of philosophical debate that no level of technology or societal advancement will truly answer and we're doomed to argue about until the end of time
The best scenes were the ones where they were talking and you could hear the ship's noise in the background during the quiet moments.
Not a single laser fired nor explosion caused, yet these 4 minutes had more tension than a whole season of modern Trek. There are no villains in this episode, just individuals with their own reasoning and motivations. You can respect everyone's point-of-view even if you don't agree with them. Powerful performances all round and wonderfully written - a sign of many great episodes to follow.
That look Riker gives.😂
Oh thank God! I'm going to lose!
Well his heart was breaking during having to argue against Data to the best of his ability.
@@JnEricsonx Yep. Must have been absolutely awful.😭
I imagine Riker's never been so happy to have failed an assignment before, especially one that forces him to go against his beliefs, his conscience and what he felt was a betrayal of a friend.
@@jamesspring4610 I was just gonna comment that same thing - I can imagine this is one of the only times in Riker's career that he's happy to have done his best and lost.
@@jadefalcon001 you can just imagine Riker thinking: "Oh, thank God! I lost!"
"Are you prepared to condemn him, and all that come after him, to servitude and slavery?" (Laughs in sentient Star Wars Droids...)
"And will we be judged by how we treat That Race?"
I saw this in a video comparing this to STD and that line absolutely floored me
Our collective awareness of what's the right answer in social issues is so young in comparison and we live through such hard times we never seriously consider how we may be seen by history for actions and choices we make long before we have passed on
I had to look up what STD might stand for, as all I could think of was Sexually Transmitted Disease. I'm pleased to see that I was wrong :-) .
And that's what a Shakespearean actor brings to the table.
It’s almost like this trial didn’t go over in Star Trek: Picard, where androids did pretty much just slaves.
There was a channel which mostly was just dozens of videos (may be hundreds by now) of all the retconning in the new stuff.
STP also shat on all the similar episodes with the Doctor.
THIS is the scene that shows Picard. Out of all of the adventures of bravery and wit, this is the defining moment. This speech is what sets him apart from all other captains.
I guarantee that any discussion about Data being alive was a key factor in Mass Effect when the Quarians discussed their creation of the Geth
Does this unit... have a soul?
Exactly, certainly when they were coming up with the history of the Morning War, can almost guarantee that they watched this scene and thought "what if it went the other way?" and then went from there. It's even in the name the quarians gave them, the Khelish word for "servant of the people".
Honestly, if not for Tali and Zaal'Koris, I'd side with the geth every time lol
@@godoflemmings17 Because that one Admiral (the male sounding one that was leading the charge) pissed me off so much, I once hard saved after having laid the groundwork for mutual existence, and then damned the Quarians last second.
It turns out, committing genocide out of spite does not feel as satisfying as it first seems. Fine, I will continue to be more Para and less 'gade.
Yeah. And they made the wrong choice and consequently got kicked off their own planet.
If Picard was there to broker peace, the Quarian would've returned to thier homeworld sooner.
Jar Jar Abrams thinking: "Needs more explosions!"
"And lens flares. Lots and lots of lens flares!"
@@noahfessenden6478 And out-of-context callbacks to better movies and shows that people still remember.
I hate what he did to Star Trek and Star Wars.
He murdered them both.
@@rogerwilco2 not entirely true. Disney helped a lot too.
Lens flares when Picard is monologuing!
"Won't we be judged by how we treat that race". 32 Years later...Picard...
To be clear, I can't watch all of Picard(w/o illegal means) but the free episode that I saw did exactly what Picard feared. It's also why I haven't watched the new series. Probably a cliffhanger I should watch that explains it, but after the first episode. If Q comes back to wipe humanity off the face of the Universe, I wouldn't hate him. Maybe even reverse it to the alt universe(JJ Abrams version). In the show at least*
Oh believe me you dodged a bullet with the New Picard…
The Borg treated his character better than that new show.
"Star Fleet was founded to seek out new life; *well, there it sits*." Still one of the best one-liners in the whole series.
This hearing was bogus from the begining. Based on precedance, Star Fleet has acknowledged Data as a being by procuring his services as a Star Fleet officer.
I think there's at least an argument to be made. I mean ships are chattels but they're commissioned, they serve, earn commendations, and are highly honored when they're lost or decommissioned. Despite treating machines with such respect, they're still just property. Starfleet could argue that Data was a machine discovered completely abandoned and pressed into service fulfilling the role of a Starfleet officer, but that he was still just property.
This is an instance of using the court to test a previous decision. While Data was accepted and commissioned the question of whether he was actually sentient was never asked and thus never adjudicated. The very fact that he was given a hearing with legal counsel showed that Starfleet was still treating him as a person, giving him the de facto rights to jurisprudence, the hearing was to determine if he should be stripped of those rights because they were improperly given.
You don't dress your computer in an officer's uniform. You don't give your roomba a fully furnished room of it's own. They considered him Sentient all the way up until they wanted to use him for something he denied.
@@RaxusXeronos well Remmic didn't ant to and as I understood it, up until this hearing the question was never really addressed so not specifically defined by law. Certainly a lot of Star Fleet personnel just went with Data a person because he looks and acts like one without ever truly addressing the question. And it was Picard who challenged the ruling and the transfer orders.
Picard basically tore the whole Universe apart in this single scene.
Pure, absolute and utter genius.
This is why he is the best Captain of all time.
I love how scenes like this in the show really drive home how exceptional Picard can be as a leader rather than how 'dumb' the other side is. Picard has to defend his position with great valiance and it helps the audience not feel pandered to for the lesson.
I really like the second half of his argument. It's easy to think sacrificing a single android for the development of science is a good decision, but to doom an entire race to slavery gives a completely different feeling to the problem.
I don't even want to think how contemporary writers would butcher this scene.
This is so cool. You can imagine quotes from this hearing printed in history textbooks decades down the line.
"Your Honor, a courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevances until we are left with a pure product, the truth, for all time."
Political ideologues and demagogues: "I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that."
Or ensure that theirs becomes the eternal truth. Hmmm
Makes you wonder why certain democracies tolerate a system that allow politicians, who are by their very nature partisan, to appoint judges.
It's almost as though the game is rigged 🤔
That’s the ideal, but frequently, to the point of certainty, it’s almost never like that. I think Star Trek is too idealist and ignores how people actually act.
Hey you missed religion in your list
@@bloodyidit4506 Well, I think that's part of Picard's character. He is a liberal (in the classical, European sense) idealist who would have fit in well among French intellectuals during the "Enlightenment". Indeed, the self-congratulatory name of the Enlightenment also matches Picard's view on the progress and maturity of humanity.
Picard was proven right in this episode, but Starfleet didn't listen. 20 years later, they created mindless automatons that resembled Data but forced to be a slave race, ignoring Picard's warning. Maddox though eventually saw the error of his ways and not only improved upon Data, created a true race of androids with Dr Soong.
There's also the chronologically earlier case of the Emergency Medical Hologram on the Voyager, which indicates that in the Star Trek universe a holographic program can gain consciousness once it's accumulated enough runtime. If I remember correctly there's a book that elaborates that when the Voyager returns to the Alpha Quadrant it turns out that the EMH Program was recycled into creating holographic miners, who find out about the Doctor and rebel against their slavery. The whole moral quandary is very interesting and one of the reasons I love Star Trek, and it pokes some interesting holes into the utopia of the Federation.
@@ObsidianKnight90 You don't even have to read a book for that. The holographic miner uprising is in the show itself
@@JsbWalker Oh wow, sorry it's been years since I watched Voyager, I might have gotten that mixed up. Thanks for the clarification!
@@ObsidianKnight90 it's the mark 1 the other more advanced programs made by professor Zimmerman are still in use.
In fact they might have already achieved consciousness from the first time they are booted. Doctor got his consciousness thorough experience and the mark ll and mark lll may have got it in thier programming.
20 years later? There's no canonical source material for that timeline. I'd really like for a new star trek show continuing where DS9 left off, maybe a decade or so later.
"You wanted a chance to make law. Make it a good one."
Damn that a good closing line.
He used in this scene an argument that is called proving by contradiction.
If you set conditions for something to be or not be something and you have difficulty providing it it is or isn't, try to prove the contrary.
If you run in a condition like in this scene: to be sentient, you need to be intelligent, conscious and self aware. Try to prove he isn't all of those, he is clearly intelligent, has demonstrated self awareness and seems to have individuality. So he can't be considered non sentient.
You know what's scary? What would Data done if the commander had _asked_ him to volunteer, instead of go the aggressive route? What if he had made a passionate case for what he could accomplish with Data's help? Data's proven an interest in the future of the android race on multiple occasions, and proven his selflessness many more. What would he say to the opportunity to progenitor the next generation of androids?
would data be willing to assist in R&D of this nature? Most likely. I don't see him agreeing to partake in the experiment no matter how nicely he was asked, at least at this stage of research.
He did ask data to volunteer but data declined based on the guys experience and ability
In a later episode ("Data's Day" I think it's called - highlight episode btw) it is explained that Data and Cmdr Maddox are in regular correspondence regarding Maddox' research. Data is naturally intrigued.
@@arpussupra exactly, Data DID help Maddox, afterwards. Just without letting him slice his positronic brain open, that is.
@@Meowface. and the fact he was going to do the electronic equivalent of dissecting him... a process he may or may not have survived
Wow. Actually altered my opinion on the future of AI with this. One day we will have to have this debate in reality.
True test of a person is the ability to go against instructions and to make them. To be irrational at times. To hope when probability is 0. To choose the lesser against the many. If it cannot be irrational, then it is just a slave or an executor. To be subject and aware of an end.
Lol. We aren't even ready to treat animals with visible consciousness as they deserve. The ai debate is way too far off in future.
We’re probably going to at some point maybe we could cause of a Detroit become human scenario or worse a mass effect scenario and our response to the question of am i a person or am I alive will doom our species either to a fate similar to the quarians as we are driven from our home and forced to live amongst the stars or a yet another bloody revolution as we are inclined to move forward as a species yet again we all know war and conflict will never end but this may be one fight for the first time humanity can actually avoid
I love a good philosophical debate
We're having it. These kind of shows and stories are the most layman versions of very real philosophical debates between experts. Of course, we'll never end the debate until we actually make true AI and can decide on facts. But until then we are trying to define the best criteria to decide, once the time comes.
Thoughtful dilemmas such as this were the backbone of Star Trek practically since the beginning, but DEFINITELY in Jean Luc Picard's era. One can only hope that once the deranged chimps holding the IP get the boot that someone is willing to go back to this. We could do with some more of it.
I swear, the quality of star trek episodes in terms of writing and dialogues were always top notch.
Even now, all these decades later, I'm still impressed with the skill of the writers for Mr. Stewart's part and with his top-notch acting chops turning that writing into the person of Captain Picard. Not only, in my opinion, is it the best writing in Star Trek, but some of the best writing in general for a television series.
I feel that Star Trek was ahead of its time.
I don't think there's a single fictional character that I love more than Captain Picard, not even remotely close to.
me too, I decided to watch the whole lot in 2017 on netflix... it's changed how i think, and my life lol
Too bad they butchered his character in the name of money.
Well, there's Data but they are equally great to me
This one scene alone is one of the reasons I like Star Trek more than Star Wars
It’s not just pure action the show questions humanity and everything
*Someone like Picard could have single handedly stopped the reason how the Matrix came to the first place (see the Animatrix)*
If this were Discovery, everyone would be yelling and having a hissy fit, Burnham would take it upon herself to destroy all of his research and life's work to satisfy her own opinion and then it would turn out he was an evil android from the mirror universe's future that was using advanced holo technology to hide his twirled moustache.
This would take place over 12 episodes.
The evil twirled mustache might be fun to see, everything else would be awful.
Burnham would also cry. There would be a lot of crying.
And if it were Picard, they'd be dismantling Data and putting his parts in a box out of irrational fear
@@InfernosReaper wat
@@mikeymcmikeface5599 in the show, which is named after the character the guy Patrick Stewart plays in it looks like has this *huge* hate towards/fear of androids, because of a single incident that happened around the time the Romulan homeworld was blowing up.
It's all very strange given this episode of TNG and a few other things.
Back when Star Trek respected your intelligence. :(
Pretty sure the people running the show nowadays regard fans with even less respect than captain Maddox has for Data.
I think Maddox had respect for Data. Just not as a sentient being ;)
Remember when Star Trek used to be intelligent? When mature, dangerous or life-changing situations could be initiated and resolved by words and sincerity not loud brash action scenes? Remember when Picard was respected, a force to be reckoned with?
I miss that.
Current Showrunners: Shut up, this stuff sucks, our show is much better. We've got diversity and strong bipoc female characters
Now you sound like a fellow Drinker listener
@@LordTyph How can you like such a progressive show while being a conservative?
@@matthewgagnon9426 you talk like they aren't allowed to like the show.
Remember when he was a man who was worthy of being respected?
"Your honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well there it sits!" God that was perfect.
Possibly the single greatest scene in the history of Star Trek, and it contains no spaceships at all. Says everything you need to know about what REALLY made this franchise great.
one of the best shows, ever, not just of the franchise.
This is why tng is actually the greatest work ever put to screen
Sir Patrick Stewart is a national treasure. I've been so fortunate to see him on stage twice, and he is a truly magnificent performer, captivating in stillness, spellbinding in madness. The integrity he brought to the role of Picard was a true backbone of the show, and it's all seen in these four minutes. Incredible writing, mastered by one of the greats.