I was absolutely pounding everything with them. The slam was great and the bleed one was insane. That was before putting supports on them. The retaliation skills are honestly one of the best things they've added to the game and a great thing for melee to have. If it wasn't for one of the new enchants I would have kept it going. Was an absolute blast.
I agree, they're not the most effective skills, but it's still pretty fun trying to make them work. It feels like we usually take usable skills and look for damage, and in this case we have damage and look for usability. The new mark ring is pretty cheap now, though it's still a curse loss. And "No Forgiveness" seems like a must-have.
Second Wind gives you an additional use of all retaliation skills. on top of gladiator's 50% chance to not use CD you can usually spam 3+ of the same skill
There's also a new hidden notable called No Forgiveness that gives you 20% more of that Gladiator Retaliation stat. You'll need a Prismatic, Golden and Black oil to anoint it.
Retaliation skills, at least for my understanding, were made to give us additional source of damage, not to give us something that you will build your character around. Ofc, it may be proven wrong by some insane build that focuses on retaliation skills only, but that is my general understanding of those skills
Well, any time they add a skill, people will try to use it as a main skill. Look at void sphere, it was suppose to just group up enemies, but people liked the skill and tried to lower cooldown enough to no success. Then GGG added alt version of it which can be spammed. Or even older example is herald of thunder. It is supplementary skill, but can also be standalone skill with very passive playstyle that many people like.
good explanation video, waiting for new one with ascendency and all tree allocated -> can u pianino all skils after single block or can u use all of them ONLY 2 sec (+inc duration) after getting hit?
Thew latter, but some skills may have longer duration window. You can sort of piano them, but not always. You definitely want decent attack speed or else you may miss your window of opportunity.
They are meant as side-skills. It feels like the devs want to move away from "press 1 skill until the end of time and win" that PoE1 suffers from, so they are bringing in some inspiration from PoE2. I've been using Eviscerate along with Lacerate bleed Glad and it's working amazingly.
Yeah, you wrote the comment I wanted to. Additionally, Melee build always had a lot of free sockets and especially after the removal of totems. This feel to me like an interactive option for that slot.
I’m running a max block bleed eviscerate gladiator. Feels amazing. Have crushing fist in a 4 link and eviscerate in my 6 link. They both hit like a truck and I get massive bleeds from eviscerate. Also if your close enough to an enemy the waves from eviscerate overlap slightly and can actually both hit the target. I can nearly one shot yellow map bosses now.
Doing the same thing but with SST. I guess I'm not well geared enough yet, but hitting for half a rare mob's life usually with eviscerate. But definitely liking the playstyle. Had it as a 2l, changed it to 4l once I got the retaliation ascendancy and things are so much better now than with just SST
I have had 0-link Eviscerate slotted in on my Lacerate bleed Gladiator since I got it at level 16, and I just press the button when the icon pops up for a nice screen clear or chunk of damage. Never considered using these as a main skill, the damage is overkill and you're forcing yourself to deal with unnecessary clunkiness, but as a situational skill they're pretty cool.
There IS another hidden notable called No Forgiveness that gives you 20% more of that Gladiator Retaliation stat. You'll need a Prismatic, Golden and Black oil to annoint it. Also Second Wind gives you an additional use of them. Crushing Fist is BFF with Doryani's Fist, which seems rather appropriate. I knew they'd be like this when I saw those massive damage numbers. They're clearly meant to be secondary skills you use to hit HARD occasionally rather than using them constantly. Doryani's Fist comes with its own spammable skill and in-built damage (both unlike Facebreakers). Another synergy is that Crushing Fist can't be Evaded, while Doryani's Touch ALSO can't be evaded, so you don't need accuracy for either. Both also hit in front of you.
For now i'm in love with eviscerate and crushing fist, two shot bosses in the campain with melee physical damage + cruelty, doing shield charge for clear. Having a lot of fun with this weird playstyle
If getting a block is such an issue for you, you can try to play with Vengeful cry. You can stack 30% to unlock other retaliation skill using it. To satisfy warcry condition you have to get savage hit (min 15% of life). You can easily trigger it with self damage as forbidden rite. It looks clunky but it doesn`t require to get any hits from enemies. So cast FR, then a warcry, then 30% chance to get a free retaliation.
I went for a dual wield glad retaliate setup and I think its fine, very clunky. the build doesn't really work until 65/65 block with 2 skills. When you get the ascendancy spamming like 4-5 fists and swordstorms feels cool. I think they should clarify how the usability window works with refreshing a different skill. would be stronger If I was a bleed glad, but I am not. Eventually the hit damage will outscale the bleed in the endgame /copium
I used the old counter attacks for mechanics, I prefer they would of stayed and we had options of counterattacks vs retaliations but I guess they think less is more
I feel like Staves is the way to go with Crushing Fist. Staff block, another skill in a 6-link and crushing fist as another 6-link as an occasional huge slam.
You don't need block chance; they keystone for trigger on getting hit 6 times is totally fine, especially if you wanna use 2H+Crushing Fist. I league started dual wield vaal cleave + swordstorm and swordstorm completely shut down my build because it instavaporized every rare so I could never get the Vaal Cleave buff for comfy mapping.
Good luck getting hit by pinnacle bosses 6 times for 1 skill use :D 85%+ chance to proc on 1 hit vs 100% chance to proc once every 6 hits is rather silly, but I do see the appeal. I assume Hiltless would not work with that, since it is no longer enemy hit. I am considering reworking build to use swordstorm, it feels good to use.
Have not tested, but my guess is that Hiltless would not work. Few leagues ago they "fixed" any mechanics like Hiltless, if someone says "enemy hit" then it has to be actual enemy hit.
I played with retal and I figured you either had to go impale or an ailment such as bleed, reason being is that is unrealistic that you will use the skill more than once a sec which really refuces your overall dps, so you need a way to snapshot all of that damage, for Impale I was thinking on tajing the impaler keystone and getting a lot of effect an basically only using the fist to apply a very big impale an tiegger them with bladestorm or something. I decided to go bleed which is less gimmicky, my 5L is eviscerte and I use bladestorm to trigger agravate.
It works great for me but what I find most annoying is that the crushing fist has a range at all, I would like it to have a little bit more area and then just smash the ground around your character and not around where your mouse cursor is.
@@Woolfio I tested btw, can't even do numlock trick on it because the skill isn't always "pressable". In the case of aiming, we do have the lightning spell that's around your character I guess, everything else kinda sucks ngl
They should create some unique or smth that would have "When you touch an enemy unit, it counts as a melee attack of that enemy against you". Cause waiting for the creep to attack is pain
I started my Autocry Slamzerker as soon as I could with a Staff. Now, I've moved to a Mace, and good lord do I miss the staff. The 40% block felt really good. Crushing Fist is the only attack-based retaliate skill you can get that works with a staff. With The Impaler and Impale Support, Crushing Fist has phased multiple bosses. Next step? Marylene's and the crit every 4th Retaliation passive.
My bleed EQ was doing great, but using a two hander without any recoup and slow attacks for leech made me respec to shield and tried Eviscerate to bleed single targets. The damage on a 4L wasn't that much higher than my 5L EQ, and I also lost like 70% of my damage switching off from my two hander...
I'm only act 7 so far but I've been having a decent time with retal glad. I've been destroying everything with 3 link eviscerate + crushing fist. I tried using the warcry but it messed with the damage skill uptime since it would eat the 35% chance to activate other skill so i dropped it. With the 3 sec duration and 8 rage/hit rage uptime is very good anyway. The retal ascendancy node makes a huge difference gameplay wise, with the 50% free cast and 35% chance to activate other skill you can usually get 5+ attacks with a single block. Also with the increased duration you can position better for crushing fist (the aoe is kinda meh yeah) and you can hold eviscerate for the next pack. Damage is also feeling pretty good, even in act 7 i would 4 shot rares with a onehander i had from act 3 until i finally found an upgrade and started two shotting again.
Currently I`m playing with crushing fist so I can say aoe is pretty fine due to fist of war and there are few nodes for retaliations aoe increse. Glancing blows + staff and you can easily use it during campain, as every 2 hit on you will be blocked. I also bought new ring with penance mark so I always have phantasms on bosses to trigger block.
This is exactly like the Elden Ring Guard Counter but not implemented well in ARPG terrain imo. Retaliation skills should get a rework for being just normal skills and Retaliation should just become a Gladiator thing to give him a stronger identity. I'd even say you could create another possibility to make 'guard counter' available for every class or ascendancy using block, maybe by reaching a block threashold or sth like that. So just the quick event icon above your head to indicate that your next hit will retaliate.
I dont understand how they are confusing. You block, they activate, you use them. I've had zero issues leveling with them through the campaign, at least as a Glad, the retaliation node is a must have imo.
I think G^3 was too cautious or too cute with the cooldowns. They have short enough CD that they're *almost* spammable, which is baiting people into trying to build an "all retaliation" build... but they don't have the damage. And they don't have the damage because their CD is too short. They've only got like 2-3x the damage of a "normal" skill (tons of skills have 400-500% multipliers now), which on a 4L instead of a 6L means they are barely going to beat out your main skill. They ought to have more like a 10s CD so they aren't baiting people into thinking they can be main skills, and in exchange have actually massive damage, like 10-15x a normal attack. Something that feels like it's worth the separate slot.
Uh, I'm running fist and evisc linked to brutality and they are fun and do great damage. Carried through campaign, still great in maps. This feels like a pretty hot take to me.
I'd like to add to what woolfio said with the fact that even if you do block reflected damage, it doesn't trigger on-hit or on-block effects (otherwise you could use for example Hiltless to activate them).
i'm using divine retribution and it's great. But, of course it's not my main skill. I believe it's working as intended by ggg, being a secondary source of dmg.
I was tempted to make an ignite crushing fist chieftain but being limited to a one handed weapon kind of defeats the purpose. I might still do it in the long run by lifestacking and using bloodthirst support but a tectonic slam of the cataclysm two hander would be better for ignite.
So far, playing a gladiator with max block and bleed, eviscerate has felt better than crushing fist. It trigger very often and I use as a panic button or like a very powerful attack. It often kills everything or deal a lot of damage to bosses. It is also very satisfying, but crushing fist feel weird. It supposedly deals more damage and the area is big, but it doesnt feel that powerful and it is slow.
I personally was kinda annoyed with eviscerate ive changed over to impale swordstorm as 4 link and its working very well for me when ever i get a decent upgrade to weapons it starts one shotting rares again and using bladestorm as a 3 link fortify and maim
It is a playstyle and a build. Without spec'ing into banners it is not worth using banners, so it does not feel mandatory to use for every melee build.
I am very tempted to refund into dual wield just for sword storm, but I would definitely end up squishier. High block with shield that recovers life on block is just insane defense.
@@Woolfio do it for science Woolfio please 😄i'm also curious about bladestorm but after the disaster that was my retaliation starter I don't have funds to respec and test it
I'm using Glacial Shield Swipe as my main skill now a 4 link but the freezing is counter intuitive to the blocking so I might change to Crushing Fist. I'm still in Act 4 however, so far no problems it has enough damage but not too strong.
@@itschoiboi yeah, I agree. I changed my main skill to Crushing fist and then just used GSS as a crowd control and it worked really well. I freeze them and then that gives the Crushing Fist just enough time to make it feel satisfying when it drops. So far, loving this combo. But I'm still in act 7, hopefully get to maps later today after work.
Told ya its a noob trap. If you have 6 link retaliation and 4 link clear skill you lose on clear. If you have 6 link clear and 4 link retaliation then probably retaliation doesnt do much more damage than just spamming your clear skill.
I'm doing same build but with bleed and its really strong shield charge takes care of the weenies and bosses..... dude act 7 I saved silk cause i literally oneshot him with one spicy fist bleed its incredible random notes glacial sheild on left click is a life saver for qol crushing fist works with ruthless and fist of war, when the stars align its awesome also i was messing with impailer and impale support on crushing fist and having that be your only impale source, its really cool to see a HUGE chunk then you next few hits also chunk, super silly
@@Woolfio yeah if you have enough attack speed its pretty much instant unless you get a lucky streak of free ones but it feels better than playing piano I think its also easier cause i run frostblink so if i get stuck its an easy reset
very clunky for sure but feels ok with enough block and a clearing skill, im playing hit based so i need to go crt and kinda play it like a slam so i can judge it, bleed versions are popping off tho and definitely are winning atm
Almost everything in this game needs to be set up for it to be effective. If you don't know what you're doing, you're in for a hard time even in the campaign. If you don't know how to utilize those skills, of course it would be hard. I almost 1 shot bosses in act 7 and 8 with a 3-link eviscerate with the bleed just draining their life in the first hit. There's also a reason why these skills are released at the same time the gladiator was reworked, because it's meant to be for his rework/his side of the tree.
The skills are inherently clunky. They have: 1- Condition to activate 2- Cast time animation 3- Short cast window 4- Long cooldown 5- Chance to reactivate ANOTHER I too got baited into starting out with this clunk-piano mess. People who like it are just using it haphazardly and/or situationally but a build with primary focus on these will never feel smooth to play.
Long cooldown ? Spamming 2 skills like pingpong. With nearly no Upgrades rushed to eater and exarch. Fun new builds i think, but yeah not for everyone maybe.
So its been two weeks. I dont have that much playing time but ive been clearing tier 13 maps easily so far on my crushing fist gladiator. Hadn't gotten tier 14+ maps+ yet. My build is like 2 divines and 1 of that is enlighten. LOL
Well "clearing" maps doesn't really tell the whole picture. Maybe it takes really long time to do that, maybe it feels very clunky, etc, etc. I was farming t16 maps but in the end wasn't enjoying the build and for my standards it was clunky.
i haven't used them at all. some thoughts. use smite/ vaal smite (free flat damage). POB there is a node you can anoint (no forgiveness) with prismatic (new), black, gold oil which gives another 20% second wind "should" work, those skills have a cd and they are not trigger skills. so in theory you can have 2 charges per skill, which might be enough to actually spam between two skills.
Flamewood did one shot bosses (RIP vaal ancestral warchief). My point is that if it takes many hits to kill bosses then it feels like any other slam skill, just with extra gimmick and possibly even weaker, because you cannot exert retaliation skills (forgot to mention in the video).
@@Woolfio Thats true, I think the problem might also be that some bosses hit you a lot where other bosses just do heavy slams or degens etc. But if anyone can make it work it you 😂
alright my dude just one minute of your rants is enough. its seems you dont get the point of those retaliation skills at all. they are NOT meant to be you main means of attack. they are an extra little piece of damage meant to make blocking more than just pure defense. also paired witht he use of herald of ash and herald of ice aswell as utilising combustion and elemental proliferation you, they can be good for leveling. again, they are not ´meant to replace your main attack. any build that relies on getting hit first is not a good build at all imo
@Woolfio I have seen and played many builds over many years in the game. I'm not all that good at building but I have been playing with those retaliation skills and I can't think of a way to make an entire build focusing one or two of them... I know how it works in poe. You see a new skill gem and want to build around it. Sure but that's not how these skills work. Sure you can make a blocking build. Your only limiter is how much currency you have. But it won't be worth it. As supporting damage, these skills are fine but not as you main damage...
@@fabim9144 No one can tell you how it should work. People play games how they want to play them and someone saying "no, it is not how you should play it" - is just annoying. Even if we ignore that - I still disagree about your statement. If it is supporting skill - it means damage is lower than main skill or it servers some utility purpose. If its damage is higher than main skill then IT is main damage and therefor can be build as main skill while something else supports it (like clearing with other skill).
This is the stupidest shit ive ever read about POE. If a skill isnt meant to be a main skill then why would they remove the passive aspect of retaliation skills and make them active? It's dumb.
Well there are many who claim they are having very good experience with retaliate skills, but I think they are not using them exclusively as main skills.
@@Woolfio Yeah that was the case for me, very early (act 1) they were a nice boost in single target, which imo is when you need it most. I swapped out of them midway through act2, and only swapped back into one around act 9 or so. I was using a 2.5link (fortify as a support) and it was hitting surprisingly hard even there, so I feel like you probably could use them through the whole campaign, and perhaps even as a main skill as long as you don't swap over before you have at least 50% block chance. Although I guess if you got a bunch of chance not to consume it might be possible earlier.
@@Woolfio I don't think they're meant to be used as main skills. Crushing Fist especially seems perfectly matched for Doryani's Fist. The two synergize in multiple ways.
If retaliate were meant only as secondary skill, then I think their damage is not that great when you compare to big slams that can be supported by multiple warcries. Why use something instead of another exerted slam. Remember that all melee attacks now have big damage effectiveness, but unlike retaliate skills, they can be exerted. So I will still try to make it pure retaliate, finished act10 and it was already feeling better. Entering maps today.
@@Woolfio In that case here's two tips. Firstly use a black, golden and prismatic oil to anoint the No Forgiveness node. And secondly try it with Second Wind support.
For me retaliation is dead, its now just a clunky, crappy slam skill. It has a condition to use, a short time to force you to use, aiming, stupid long windup, low damage vs all the requirements, and very long CD.... if they had made them do both the old effect combined with the new, or kept the old gems and added the new ones then it might have been good. At this point in time the devs have made it a point that the skills are an afterthought. Barely there for use while you use your main skill and ohh look, use this bad skill you dont have links for.
I use second wind 2 time in round and 50% chance to not use cd skill to 3time if lucky i can use 4 5 6 time in round But if this skill auto trigger like toggle skill maybe good
![[WR] Level 100 in 30 Minutes](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/go1hg93_LkM/mqdefault.jpg)
I was absolutely pounding everything with them. The slam was great and the bleed one was insane. That was before putting supports on them.
The retaliation skills are honestly one of the best things they've added to the game and a great thing for melee to have. If it wasn't for one of the new enchants I would have kept it going. Was an absolute blast.
I agree, they're not the most effective skills, but it's still pretty fun trying to make them work. It feels like we usually take usable skills and look for damage, and in this case we have damage and look for usability. The new mark ring is pretty cheap now, though it's still a curse loss. And "No Forgiveness" seems like a must-have.
Second Wind gives you an additional use of all retaliation skills. on top of gladiator's 50% chance to not use CD you can usually spam 3+ of the same skill
There's also a new hidden notable called No Forgiveness that gives you 20% more of that Gladiator Retaliation stat. You'll need a Prismatic, Golden and Black oil to anoint it.
Retaliation skills, at least for my understanding, were made to give us additional source of damage, not to give us something that you will build your character around.
Ofc, it may be proven wrong by some insane build that focuses on retaliation skills only, but that is my general understanding of those skills
Well, any time they add a skill, people will try to use it as a main skill. Look at void sphere, it was suppose to just group up enemies, but people liked the skill and tried to lower cooldown enough to no success. Then GGG added alt version of it which can be spammed. Or even older example is herald of thunder. It is supplementary skill, but can also be standalone skill with very passive playstyle that many people like.
good explanation video, waiting for new one with ascendency and all tree allocated -> can u pianino all skils after single block or can u use all of them ONLY 2 sec (+inc duration) after getting hit?
Only for 2 seconds. Slow casts suck especially if they proc during an invulnerable phase or something is out of range.
Thew latter, but some skills may have longer duration window. You can sort of piano them, but not always. You definitely want decent attack speed or else you may miss your window of opportunity.
They are meant as side-skills. It feels like the devs want to move away from "press 1 skill until the end of time and win" that PoE1 suffers from, so they are bringing in some inspiration from PoE2. I've been using Eviscerate along with Lacerate bleed Glad and it's working amazingly.
Yeah, you wrote the comment I wanted to.
Additionally, Melee build always had a lot of free sockets and especially after the removal of totems.
This feel to me like an interactive option for that slot.
I’m running a max block bleed eviscerate gladiator. Feels amazing. Have crushing fist in a 4 link and eviscerate in my 6 link. They both hit like a truck and I get massive bleeds from eviscerate. Also if your close enough to an enemy the waves from eviscerate overlap slightly and can actually both hit the target. I can nearly one shot yellow map bosses now.
Doing the same thing but with SST. I guess I'm not well geared enough yet, but hitting for half a rare mob's life usually with eviscerate. But definitely liking the playstyle. Had it as a 2l, changed it to 4l once I got the retaliation ascendancy and things are so much better now than with just SST
I have had 0-link Eviscerate slotted in on my Lacerate bleed Gladiator since I got it at level 16, and I just press the button when the icon pops up for a nice screen clear or chunk of damage.
Never considered using these as a main skill, the damage is overkill and you're forcing yourself to deal with unnecessary clunkiness, but as a situational skill they're pretty cool.
There IS another hidden notable called No Forgiveness that gives you 20% more of that Gladiator Retaliation stat. You'll need a Prismatic, Golden and Black oil to annoint it. Also Second Wind gives you an additional use of them. Crushing Fist is BFF with Doryani's Fist, which seems rather appropriate. I knew they'd be like this when I saw those massive damage numbers. They're clearly meant to be secondary skills you use to hit HARD occasionally rather than using them constantly. Doryani's Fist comes with its own spammable skill and in-built damage (both unlike Facebreakers). Another synergy is that Crushing Fist can't be Evaded, while Doryani's Touch ALSO can't be evaded, so you don't need accuracy for either. Both also hit in front of you.
For now i'm in love with eviscerate and crushing fist, two shot bosses in the campain with melee physical damage + cruelty, doing shield charge for clear.
Having a lot of fun with this weird playstyle
Note that Crushing Fist does work with Fist of War. Enjoy! ;)
QUESTION: general's cry will it have more mirage than 5 with effect ? addec to the game. after they nerfed berzerker and the skill it self
crazy, as if they were designed to be a good supplementary source of damage for tanky characters
thank you for all the testing! Look forward to when I get to my second build to cook together something good ^^
You a real one for this Woolfio
there should be more condition to proc retaliate skill other than block and take savage hit.
@@poom323 you can proc it if you get hit at least 6 times (Keystone Passive), Second wind support gives +1 use to it.
I've just done act 1-10 with Evicerate and bloodstorm. It's amazing and incredibly fun! Dont let yourself down.
If getting a block is such an issue for you, you can try to play with Vengeful cry. You can stack 30% to unlock other retaliation skill using it. To satisfy warcry condition you have to get savage hit (min 15% of life). You can easily trigger it with self damage as forbidden rite. It looks clunky but it doesn`t require to get any hits from enemies. So cast FR, then a warcry, then 30% chance to get a free retaliation.
I went for a dual wield glad retaliate setup and I think its fine, very clunky. the build doesn't really work until 65/65 block with 2 skills. When you get the ascendancy spamming like 4-5 fists and swordstorms feels cool. I think they should clarify how the usability window works with refreshing a different skill.
would be stronger If I was a bleed glad, but I am not. Eventually the hit damage will outscale the bleed in the endgame /copium
Swordstorm felt really good when u focused in on impale and crit tho...
I used the old counter attacks for mechanics, I prefer they would of stayed and we had options of counterattacks vs retaliations but I guess they think less is more
I feel like Staves is the way to go with Crushing Fist. Staff block, another skill in a 6-link and crushing fist as another 6-link as an occasional huge slam.
Good job man! Having fun instead of blasting through the campaign.
You don't need block chance; they keystone for trigger on getting hit 6 times is totally fine, especially if you wanna use 2H+Crushing Fist.
I league started dual wield vaal cleave + swordstorm and swordstorm completely shut down my build because it instavaporized every rare so I could never get the Vaal Cleave buff for comfy mapping.
Good luck getting hit by pinnacle bosses 6 times for 1 skill use :D 85%+ chance to proc on 1 hit vs 100% chance to proc once every 6 hits is rather silly, but I do see the appeal. I assume Hiltless would not work with that, since it is no longer enemy hit.
I am considering reworking build to use swordstorm, it feels good to use.
I think he just means for the campaign, also using something else as a main skill
Isint that what vaal breach is for?@Woolfio
It is a good way to proc the warcry retaliation, but it kinda weak since it's easy to get rage
Wow my dumb brain didn’t even realize you could use it with a two hander if you take that keystone.
Did a similar build last league with vengeance and reckoning, used boneshatter and one handed mace. The stuns really helped.
How does Arsenal of Vengence fells? Does it works with Hiltless?
Have not tested, but my guess is that Hiltless would not work. Few leagues ago they "fixed" any mechanics like Hiltless, if someone says "enemy hit" then it has to be actual enemy hit.
I played with retal and I figured you either had to go impale or an ailment such as bleed, reason being is that is unrealistic that you will use the skill more than once a sec which really refuces your overall dps, so you need a way to snapshot all of that damage, for Impale I was thinking on tajing the impaler keystone and getting a lot of effect an basically only using the fist to apply a very big impale an tiegger them with bladestorm or something. I decided to go bleed which is less gimmicky, my 5L is eviscerte and I use bladestorm to trigger agravate.
It works great for me but what I find most annoying is that the crushing fist has a range at all, I would like it to have a little bit more area and then just smash the ground around your character and not around where your mouse cursor is.
Sounds like he focused on the fist and block when he should gotten the glad retaliation passive sooner and used eviscerate
Have a tanky character, have multiple retaliation skills, put all on numlock trick so it's pressed when possible, maybe can afk simulacrum?
You still need to aim.
@@Woolfio I tested btw, can't even do numlock trick on it because the skill isn't always "pressable". In the case of aiming, we do have the lightning spell that's around your character I guess, everything else kinda sucks ngl
They should create some unique or smth that would have "When you touch an enemy unit, it counts as a melee attack of that enemy against you". Cause waiting for the creep to attack is pain
I started my Autocry Slamzerker as soon as I could with a Staff. Now, I've moved to a Mace, and good lord do I miss the staff. The 40% block felt really good. Crushing Fist is the only attack-based retaliate skill you can get that works with a staff. With The Impaler and Impale Support, Crushing Fist has phased multiple bosses. Next step? Marylene's and the crit every 4th Retaliation passive.
I am thinking how to add crit into my build, Marylene's seems interesting to experiment with.
My bleed EQ was doing great, but using a two hander without any recoup and slow attacks for leech made me respec to shield and tried Eviscerate to bleed single targets.
The damage on a 4L wasn't that much higher than my 5L EQ, and I also lost like 70% of my damage switching off from my two hander...
I'm only act 7 so far but I've been having a decent time with retal glad. I've been destroying everything with 3 link eviscerate + crushing fist. I tried using the warcry but it messed with the damage skill uptime since it would eat the 35% chance to activate other skill so i dropped it. With the 3 sec duration and 8 rage/hit rage uptime is very good anyway. The retal ascendancy node makes a huge difference gameplay wise, with the 50% free cast and 35% chance to activate other skill you can usually get 5+ attacks with a single block. Also with the increased duration you can position better for crushing fist (the aoe is kinda meh yeah) and you can hold eviscerate for the next pack. Damage is also feeling pretty good, even in act 7 i would 4 shot rares with a onehander i had from act 3 until i finally found an upgrade and started two shotting again.
Can retaliation skills be used with automation? The spell one.
No. Spell cascade works with divine retribution.
Currently I`m playing with crushing fist so I can say aoe is pretty fine due to fist of war and there are few nodes for retaliations aoe increse. Glancing blows + staff and you can easily use it during campain, as every 2 hit on you will be blocked. I also bought new ring with penance mark so I always have phantasms on bosses to trigger block.
Retaliation skills definitely don't feel like your "main skill" but something to add a bit extra damage when you need it.
I have been using retaliation and evisc with high damage shield charge
This is exactly like the Elden Ring Guard Counter but not implemented well in ARPG terrain imo. Retaliation skills should get a rework for being just normal skills and Retaliation should just become a Gladiator thing to give him a stronger identity. I'd even say you could create another possibility to make 'guard counter' available for every class or ascendancy using block, maybe by reaching a block threashold or sth like that. So just the quick event icon above your head to indicate that your next hit will retaliate.
Woah, I had the complete opposite experience!
Hmm, weapon upgrades that I got looked good, but maybe in fact were no good enough. Or maybe I have been spoiled by hundreds of other builds I did.
I dont understand how they are confusing. You block, they activate, you use them. I've had zero issues leveling with them through the campaign, at least as a Glad, the retaliation node is a must have imo.
I think G^3 was too cautious or too cute with the cooldowns. They have short enough CD that they're *almost* spammable, which is baiting people into trying to build an "all retaliation" build... but they don't have the damage.
And they don't have the damage because their CD is too short. They've only got like 2-3x the damage of a "normal" skill (tons of skills have 400-500% multipliers now), which on a 4L instead of a 6L means they are barely going to beat out your main skill. They ought to have more like a 10s CD so they aren't baiting people into thinking they can be main skills, and in exchange have actually massive damage, like 10-15x a normal attack. Something that feels like it's worth the separate slot.
Uh, I'm running fist and evisc linked to brutality and they are fun and do great damage. Carried through campaign, still great in maps. This feels like a pretty hot take to me.
Can you block self damage from storm sikret ring ?
No. Can never block self damage. Can only block damage reflected from monsters.
I'd like to add to what woolfio said with the fact that even if you do block reflected damage, it doesn't trigger on-hit or on-block effects (otherwise you could use for example Hiltless to activate them).
i'm using divine retribution and it's great. But, of course it's not my main skill. I believe it's working as intended by ggg, being a secondary source of dmg.
5:08 this is incorrect
I was tempted to make an ignite crushing fist chieftain but being limited to a one handed weapon kind of defeats the purpose. I might still do it in the long run by lifestacking and using bloodthirst support but a tectonic slam of the cataclysm two hander would be better for ignite.
Fist is not limited to blocking with a shield. Getting max block on a staff is extremely easy this league.
@@mp7311 you are right, I was forgetting about that. Thanks!
So far, playing a gladiator with max block and bleed, eviscerate has felt better than crushing fist. It trigger very often and I use as a panic button or like a very powerful attack. It often kills everything or deal a lot of damage to bosses. It is also very satisfying, but crushing fist feel weird. It supposedly deals more damage and the area is big, but it doesnt feel that powerful and it is slow.
Big thing with crushing fist as well is it’s short cast range. A lot of the times I want to cast it on my feet but click too far and die because of it
@@deadbeats5640 click on icon for attack without moving..
I personally was kinda annoyed with eviscerate ive changed over to impale swordstorm as 4 link and its working very well for me when ever i get a decent upgrade to weapons it starts one shotting rares again and using bladestorm as a 3 link fortify and maim
Its funny how they made the skills active to use, while removing totems to make melee less clunky.
It is a playstyle and a build. Without spec'ing into banners it is not worth using banners, so it does not feel mandatory to use for every melee build.
I'm only in act 7 but swordstorm has been awesome for me so far on a 4 link for rares
I am very tempted to refund into dual wield just for sword storm, but I would definitely end up squishier. High block with shield that recovers life on block is just insane defense.
@@Woolfio do it for science Woolfio please 😄i'm also curious about bladestorm but after the disaster that was my retaliation starter I don't have funds to respec and test it
I'm using Glacial Shield Swipe as my main skill now a 4 link but the freezing is counter intuitive to the blocking so I might change to Crushing Fist. I'm still in Act 4 however, so far no problems it has enough damage but not too strong.
I keep glacial as a big red button just in case I get swarmed. Being able to freeze a chunk of the way for a moment is nice during leveling
@@itschoiboi yeah, I agree. I changed my main skill to Crushing fist and then just used GSS as a crowd control and it worked really well. I freeze them and then that gives the Crushing Fist just enough time to make it feel satisfying when it drops. So far, loving this combo. But I'm still in act 7, hopefully get to maps later today after work.
Im intrigued and will probably play a retaliation char myself. At least if this works with Scolds Bridle
Cannot block self inflicted damage Arsenal of Vengeance keystone requires enemy hit.
@@Woolfio Darn, seems ive hit up an old entry and hoped this is the exception of the secondary damage rule... thanks for correcting me
Told ya its a noob trap. If you have 6 link retaliation and 4 link clear skill you lose on clear. If you have 6 link clear and 4 link retaliation then probably retaliation doesnt do much more damage than just spamming your clear skill.
Crushing fist with facebreakers was doing 11k damage in act 2 unlinked.. yall ever one shot the vaal oversoul?
I'm doing same build but with bleed and its really strong shield charge takes care of the weenies and bosses..... dude act 7 I saved silk cause i literally oneshot him with one spicy fist bleed its incredible
random notes
glacial sheild on left click is a life saver for qol
crushing fist works with ruthless and fist of war, when the stars align its awesome
also i was messing with impailer and impale support on crushing fist and having that be your only impale source, its really cool to see a HUGE chunk then you next few hits also chunk, super silly
Glacial shield swipe on left click? But that is not instant and would stop you to perform animation.
@@Woolfio yeah if you have enough attack speed its pretty much instant unless you get a lucky streak of free ones but it feels better than playing piano
I think its also easier cause i run frostblink so if i get stuck its an easy reset
It looks like you should be able to place where you want the fist or evescerate to fall but its just right next to you
very clunky for sure but feels ok with enough block and a clearing skill, im playing hit based so i need to go crt and kinda play it like a slam so i can judge it, bleed versions are popping off tho and definitely are winning atm
Almost everything in this game needs to be set up for it to be effective. If you don't know what you're doing, you're in for a hard time even in the campaign. If you don't know how to utilize those skills, of course it would be hard.
I almost 1 shot bosses in act 7 and 8 with a 3-link eviscerate with the bleed just draining their life in the first hit. There's also a reason why these skills are released at the same time the gladiator was reworked, because it's meant to be for his rework/his side of the tree.
Helo! with the asdendancy sometimes i can use the retaliation even 4 times! is great
Great video as always
Retaliation skills cannot be exerted so that's not a factor. It's in the expanded tooltip for Exerts.
really wish u could with the fist.... :(
wanted to do one quack
Retaliate feels very mid to me.
Ignite! Softcore really got this guy overthinking stuff.
Big multipliers are to bait people. This is the most resident sleeper build in a game where you have to avoid boss hits.
So basically melee skills but with extra conditional steps.
The skills are inherently clunky. They have:
1- Condition to activate
2- Cast time animation
3- Short cast window
4- Long cooldown
5- Chance to reactivate ANOTHER
I too got baited into starting out with this clunk-piano mess. People who like it are just using it haphazardly and/or situationally but a build with primary focus on these will never feel smooth to play.
Long cooldown ? Spamming 2 skills like pingpong. With nearly no Upgrades rushed to eater and exarch. Fun new builds i think, but yeah not for everyone maybe.
3 skills if your also using the insanely powerful warcry
So its been two weeks. I dont have that much playing time but ive been clearing tier 13 maps easily so far on my crushing fist gladiator. Hadn't gotten tier 14+ maps+ yet. My build is like 2 divines and 1 of that is enlighten. LOL
Well "clearing" maps doesn't really tell the whole picture. Maybe it takes really long time to do that, maybe it feels very clunky, etc, etc. I was farming t16 maps but in the end wasn't enjoying the build and for my standards it was clunky.
It is going well for me. Ofcourse until i bump into a torment
Ye, the fist is a clunky disappointment so far because of the lockout / targeting / aoe
Left click the skill in skill slot and turn on “always attack without moving” The fist will hit where you click without a target that way
i haven't used them at all.
some thoughts.
use smite/ vaal smite (free flat damage).
POB there is a node you can anoint (no forgiveness) with prismatic (new), black, gold oil which gives another 20%
second wind "should" work, those skills have a cd and they are not trigger skills. so in theory you can have 2 charges per skill, which might be enough to actually spam between two skills.
I miss vengence, no more autobomber melee :(
Crushing fist is so tiny
It's a boss killer. Try pairing it up with Doryani's Fist for clear.
You cant expect shit to one shot bosses on a four link. Thats tabula + "twink" gear kind of damage levels. How would that be balanced endgame?
Was kind of suprised as well that chieftain asc. fist of war worked. For ailments that 1,760 effectiveness after -60%.
Flamewood did one shot bosses (RIP vaal ancestral warchief). My point is that if it takes many hits to kill bosses then it feels like any other slam skill, just with extra gimmick and possibly even weaker, because you cannot exert retaliation skills (forgot to mention in the video).
@@Woolfio Thats true, I think the problem might also be that some bosses hit you a lot where other bosses just do heavy slams or degens etc. But if anyone can make it work it you 😂
Ancestral Totem is better than retaliation
Not sure what you mean, ancestral totems are gone now.
alright my dude just one minute of your rants is enough. its seems you dont get the point of those retaliation skills at all. they are NOT meant to be you main means of attack. they are an extra little piece of damage meant to make blocking more than just pure defense. also paired witht he use of herald of ash and herald of ice aswell as utilising combustion and elemental proliferation you, they can be good for leveling. again, they are not ´meant to replace your main attack. any build that relies on getting hit first is not a good build at all imo
No, it is you who don't get it how it works in PoE.
@Woolfio I have seen and played many builds over many years in the game. I'm not all that good at building but I have been playing with those retaliation skills and I can't think of a way to make an entire build focusing one or two of them...
I know how it works in poe. You see a new skill gem and want to build around it. Sure but that's not how these skills work. Sure you can make a blocking build. Your only limiter is how much currency you have.
But it won't be worth it.
As supporting damage, these skills are fine but not as you main damage...
@@fabim9144 No one can tell you how it should work. People play games how they want to play them and someone saying "no, it is not how you should play it" - is just annoying.
Even if we ignore that - I still disagree about your statement. If it is supporting skill - it means damage is lower than main skill or it servers some utility purpose. If its damage is higher than main skill then IT is main damage and therefor can be build as main skill while something else supports it (like clearing with other skill).
This is the stupidest shit ive ever read about POE. If a skill isnt meant to be a main skill then why would they remove the passive aspect of retaliation skills and make them active? It's dumb.
@@gonzalezruben8503 Yeah. Making them active skills was the most stupidest decision ever.
Knew they would be, that’s why I didn’t start gladiator 👍 went perfect agony poison lightning strike assassin with pneumatic dagger
Well there are many who claim they are having very good experience with retaliate skills, but I think they are not using them exclusively as main skills.
@@Woolfio Yeah that was the case for me, very early (act 1) they were a nice boost in single target, which imo is when you need it most. I swapped out of them midway through act2, and only swapped back into one around act 9 or so. I was using a 2.5link (fortify as a support) and it was hitting surprisingly hard even there, so I feel like you probably could use them through the whole campaign, and perhaps even as a main skill as long as you don't swap over before you have at least 50% block chance. Although I guess if you got a bunch of chance not to consume it might be possible earlier.
@@Woolfio I don't think they're meant to be used as main skills. Crushing Fist especially seems perfectly matched for Doryani's Fist. The two synergize in multiple ways.
If retaliate were meant only as secondary skill, then I think their damage is not that great when you compare to big slams that can be supported by multiple warcries. Why use something instead of another exerted slam. Remember that all melee attacks now have big damage effectiveness, but unlike retaliate skills, they can be exerted.
So I will still try to make it pure retaliate, finished act10 and it was already feeling better. Entering maps today.
@@Woolfio In that case here's two tips. Firstly use a black, golden and prismatic oil to anoint the No Forgiveness node. And secondly try it with Second Wind support.
For me retaliation is dead, its now just a clunky, crappy slam skill. It has a condition to use, a short time to force you to use, aiming, stupid long windup, low damage vs all the requirements, and very long CD.... if they had made them do both the old effect combined with the new, or kept the old gems and added the new ones then it might have been good. At this point in time the devs have made it a point that the skills are an afterthought. Barely there for use while you use your main skill and ohh look, use this bad skill you dont have links for.
I use second wind 2 time in round and 50% chance to not use cd skill to 3time
if lucky i can use 4 5 6 time in round
But if this skill auto trigger like toggle skill maybe good