I'm writing a book. Eventually I'm going to write the last word on the last page of the last draft. I guess that's a completely pointless endeavor on my part. Do you ever wonder if religious apologists hear themselves when they say this stuff?
@@JimmySmith692seriously, I’ve written over 50 songs and who knew each one was completely pointless!? Too bad I’m addicted to the pointless process of making things. Do you think there’s a support group for us? And btw what is your book about? 🖖🏻
I was so happy on the day I was deemed old enough to be left home alone and didn't get forced to go to church on Sundays any more. It wasn't social, it was an attempt to brainwash and was simultaneously boring and offensive.
So weird that an apologist can claim that non-belief leads to or is equal to solipsism, when I think the opposite is true. If you believe in miracles, you can never know anything for sure. I, as an empiricist, can trust with relative certainty that my chair is indeed a chair and it will support me when I sit down. To someone who believes in the god of Abraham, that chair might turn into a bunch of snakes, or it might break when you sit on it to test whether or not you'll curse Yaweh, or maybe it's a delusion because your prayer life hasn't been strong lately. An unverified unfalsifiable deity that can do anything at any time, with or without explanation, is not a solid dependable basis for determining what's real.
How do you include RUclips search terms in comments? That's the first time I've seen it. Or, it could be my phone doing it. It went away when I asked 😂😂
@@RustyWalker it's automated, I didn't do it, it's a new thing RUclips is doing in the comments, it's neat but I'm not sure how it decides which terms to apply it to.
Or they say, “physical laws of the universe don’t have to be consistent, you don’t know gravity will work tomorrow. But if there’s a metaphysical timeless being who can change all the physical laws, he can tell the physical laws to stay the same. That’s the only way to know anything!”
I don't see the problem with everything being futile. It just gives more incentive to make everything more enjoyable for everyone for the time that it lasts.
As to "is anything real?", I go with: It just doesn't matter. The universe *could* be lying to us, but it appears to be doing so in absolutely consistent ways. *Unless* there is a *way* to distinguish what we observe from *actual* reality, we are *forced* to accept our experiences as being *real* . Basically, we have no actual alternatives than to treat this as real at this time. That might be fundamentally wrong, but until we can *demonstrate* that it is wrong, there are no other choices. You can't just *guess* that it is wrong in the particular way you'd like, and then pretend that you can use that for some purpose.
I am glad you did, too! And that you found Scarlett as well! Anything that we can do to help people with our content, if only just a little bit, makes all of the work worth it! ^_^
The more I listen to this man, the more I wonder who he's talking to? His congregation, atheists and agnostics, or himself? I get the impression he's clinging to his religion like a life raft.
Thank you for that! I did a video with a lady named Scarlett. She is a linguistics professor as well! So if you see that collab here on my channel, she may be worth your time as well!
I agree that the increase is due to the increase of secular thinking. The kind of thinking that leads to the development of antidepressants and sniffing out depression.
Well, with regards to the subject of meaning and how we could find meaning in anything that isn't eternal, I'll give a quote from a much darker, much grimmer fictional universe from a pretty nice guy (by that universe' standards): "The flesh is weak...but deeds endure!"
Always dislike when it's like, "Of course you depress you're an atheist. " No, im depressed because my brain does use dopamine the same way. And by Christian belief. My brain was purposefully made this way, so i get annoyed when a religious family member brings that up. "Atheist = being depressed." Luckily, i don't talk to them much, if at all, and i have wonderful found family. Thanks for the video 😊
I mean, I don't actually agree that the endpoint is what gives the whole thing value. I'd appreciate it if I could never die, so I could demonstrate this. Thank you for considering funding my project.
I'd like to not have to spend extra money in order to start my day. I'll admit that sometimes it ain't easy, but I'm sure it's easier than dealing with a caffeine addiction.
Eh, I and my parents knew that the "theist worldview" was not for me when we accepted that I would much rather spend my Sundays at a pizza buffet for lunch rather than at a religious service. Pizza - a truly good thing to come from Italy, unlike Christianity.
13:44 "The most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is, 'I do not know'." - Data, from the Star Trek TNG episode Where Silence has Lease.
"Secularism is why everything is going to hell" is often a tip-off that the speaker doesn't judge social health by metrics like life expectancy or food availability, but by how hard they can put boot to neck on minorities
I agree 100%! It is basically him seeing that fewer people are giving money to the church, and attendance is down, so because people are thinking differently than he does, that means their thinking must be immoral or not part of the real world. "If you don't think like me, you're wrong" is a pretty sad position to hold. They isolate themselves and then wonder why people don't want to be isolated with them.
You know another word often used in religion that is a contranym (thank you for this word, I need it for this idea)? "Perfect". Perfect can mean 'pure' and without any flaws, and it can also mean 'whole' including even flaws.
Let's say we get past atheism being a worldview and focus on its futility for the sake of argument. It doesn't follow that we ought adopt a superstitious, irrational, and mostly false faith. Looking for systems that introduce meaning and purpose is an investment in your own happiness and that of your social group, not an obligation.
No Eternal Encore? But I love that song! XD Seriously, though, if someone speaks to me of a ‘basis for morals’, my mind turns to the actual reasons; arguments for why a moral should be accepted. If a child were told not to steal, but never learned any reasons why they should accept that rule, their adherence to that moral could be easily undone by any remotely convincing argument or circumstance. Having morals not based on authority means having to actually think about those reasons. Ironically, what I see in this pastor’s video suggests a lack of moral basis on his part. I often see this shadow hovering behind arguments like these; the idea of ‘dishonesty is okay, because in my view, others are also lying’. This tosses aside a frequently accepted moral because of a circumstance, with little thought given to why, because the only condition was an authority and that authority has been bypassed with apparently little effort. The problem, to me, seems to be that the authority in question is a ‘displaced’ authority; one that cannot be accessed by means that cannot be intercepted, influenced or imagined. This makes it very easy for almost anyone to appropriate that authority, and gain along with it the ability to deflect all responsibility to that displaced figure instead of accepting it. The more I watch this kind of debate, the more I can’t help but see the purpose of such belief systems as a mechanism to fabricate power that’s simultaneously free of responsibility.
Is it me,or are these newer apologists full of shit? This guy,Jim Bob,Darwin To Jesus, that one guy with the stupid questions,etc,they all seem like the dirt that the bottom of the barrel sits on.
No community? I have to laugh. My wife, atheist, youngest of 11. She is their family's glue. I'm 20 years the guardian to a wheelchair bound mother and special needs 55 yo brother. I'm barely scratching the surface on the depths of my community, you scared man.
Despondency and futility of my worldview? Ah, yes - the things I don't feel while living my religion-free life. "Oh no! It's Sunday and I don't need to drive to nearest church! Woe is me!" "Ahhh! I feel so awful enjoying my ham sandwich at Friday. Surely it tastes like despondency, I just don't feel it because of mustard." 🤣
Your view on the value increasing due to its transience reminded me of a phrase the Japanese already have: "mono no aware" (or Awareness of the Transience of Things). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to disapprove of your thoughts (I also have the same view), it does kind of show that people have thought on this for a long time, in places all over the world. There was a quote from this one manga ("So I'm a Spider, So What?") that goes "Life is as fleeting as the mists of Adashino Cemetery. It evaporates quickly as the smoke of the Toribeyama Crematorium. If it were not so, we would take much for granted. It is this transience that gives life meaning."
As an anime and manga fan, I can definitely see how my position on things has been influenced by Japanese culture that I have been exposed to. Excellent point!
Any argument that features an appearance by Robert Smith automatically wins. But it does seem to say something that whenever an apologist runs these supposed takedowns of atheism without running it past an actual atheist, it just ends up being something of a circlejerk.
It can be a bit frustrating to talk morality with them. I am not entirely sure they actually understand what "subjective" and "objective" mean. That is where I like to point out all of the different flavors of Christianity, and see which ones that disagree with certain things are still objective....
indeed That their god is necessarily benevolent is their subjective choice, not what automatically comes out when defining a necessary god and what a god necessary can be.
Wow live for something greater than myself fuck me I'd love to do something for myself but I gave up my life 15 years ago because my dad has dementia and I am his full time career but I'm just a selfish atheist that annoys the shit out of me
I listened this Cleave guy quite a bit and came to conclusion he is really dishonest and doesn't even attempt to convince atheists, but reinforce his followers belief system. Only futility there is his reasoning. His Pt. 4 has 12 likes in 12 days and you have 43 in 2 hours. Not trying to go popularity fallacy road here, but question meaningfulness of responding to this guy? I mean, he has pretty much no effect on anything having 384 subs, but I can see some worth to ponder these things in general. Btw, he surprisingly skipped certain Austrian painter in his list of atheist atrocities. I didn't even remember how ridiculously absolutist he is. I kind of understand why certainty is so seducing, but it leads to binary idiocy. About that "what is a woman" -question, I don't wonder anymore at all how impossible it is to creationists to understand what a species is. It is really difficult to define. But possible to a satisfactory level, women and species. What seems to be impossible to all, is to define "kind" as creationists use it. Also, it's hilarious when they realize I'm white, straight, male and an ally of the rainbow. They just can't seem to understand it's possible. :D About the personal final solution: it's clear that victim blaming (where these idiots always end up) is part of the problem, not the solution. I've known quite a few people who made the last action and all of them suffered of expectations that they couldn't fulfill. It's really sad. Overall, solid work once again, I'm seriously considering to start actively following you instead of someone else. Time is limited.
His name is Pastor Ben? I think this is the first time I've encountered someone with the given name "pastor". But there are some wild names out there, so who am I to judge? I did find it interesting that he finished by speaking of how he hoped atheists could or should respond. That blows my theory of this content being directed towards Christians. But I find it hard to even imagine any atheists for which this content would be convincing.
@stevewebber707 my name is literally "Dark," so I am not one to criticize someone for having a different name. ^_^ A lot of apologists have their comments turned off, so responding is challenging sometimes. I am thinking about saying I made a response.
I can’t understand why all these pastors, theists, christian hypocrisies, apologetics and whatnot are so obsessed by us atheists. Could it be that they are jealous that we live a life in freedom and are happy and can concentrate on living a good and decent life here and now?!
"... nothing binding you to meet with other people"? Yeah, I felt bound by church. But this was bible-belt Canada (despite what he says, it exists) and there was no getting out of it. Leaving that town for a place where I felt like I could ask "bad" questions was the best thing I ever did.
Damn Christianity answers to the meaning of life is actually depressing. You’re a slave to christ, you exist to worship that omnipotent being to feed his ego or something. That’s a disgusting meaning. Seriously an ant carrying gold sands to the throne of Christ? Does he really think that’s an inspirational picture? To me it brings to mind images of conquered people giving their wealth to their conqueror. It’s disgusting
Exactly!! You know what you are, human? You are nothing but an ANT! Yeah, you wouldn't want people to feel good about themselves. That is kind of the hallmark of Christianity. If you enjoy something, it's probably a sin.
Remember, religion is deeply founded in the traditions of the past. Traditions naturally resist change, even for the better, and traditions are really just peer pressure from dead people.
The danger of thinking that unless we take our accomplishments with us to some afterlife, we lack meaning, is two fold. First, thinking that life is just the prologue to an otherwise endless novel completely devalues the time we have here and makes people okay with just existing and not really living because the best part is yet to come. And second, when you think like this then this temporary existence is inconsequential because eternity awaits. Why care for the planet when heaven is next and its way better than this place. Why savor the moment when you have so much more and better to look forward to. It sucks the vibrance and color out of life when you think like a believer and it devalues your time and experience here and now as well as lifts the burden of ecological stewardship from the shoulders of the believer. I would not be surprised if some of these oil barons are religious people just trying to get the most out of life at the cost of the planet because why care what happens here when heaven awaits. If you moved into a house and were told you get to live in that house for 5 years and then you will be moved into a much bigger and nicer house while new people come live in that 5 year house, would you even bother to maintain the first house or decorate it? But if you moved into a house not being promised anything afterwards, you would likely take care of the house you have not only for your self but for future generations to come. That's the difference between a person who believes in life after death and a person who believes this is the one shot we got, lets make it count.
And to risk Godwin's law, one must note that Fascism found its greatest popularity in *much* more religious societies. Religion demonstrably does not protect against the rise of wrong headed political movements.
Without money, you can not buy things. The fact that you *want* to buy things though does not allow you to *assert* that you have money when you do not. In the same way, the reality that you *want* to have an externally defined purpose does not make it true. Your desires don't make it so.
to be honest, if i did go to another place thats not in this reality, then that actually sucks. the best things in my life are here on earth. things like nature and entertainment like movies, video games and books. i dont wanna go to a place where all you can do is either worship God or suffer for eternity. both sound bad. i would literally rather live here for maybe 80 years than to live in what christians tell me heaven is fpr eternity.
Secular society is not stopping anyone from being religious or attending church if that's what they want to do. All we ask is that you not shove your beliefs down our throats. It's really not that difficult or complicated.
@@darkofalltrades I completely agree. So long as religion stays with the churches and isn't pushed into places where it doesn't belong (schools, government, healthcare, etc) we're absolutely fine. I also find it rather telling that the same people/groups that want to label things like science, evolution, etc as religions don't want to recognize some actual religions as legitimate (Satanism for example).
This pastor's approach really sucks. I don't think he's doing this intentionally, but it's like the classic grift of convincing us that we have a non-existent problem, then trying to sell us the solution.
The country I live in also had medically assisted dying. The criteria are that a person has to be likely to die in a year and is (I summarize) in acute pain. A number of medical processionals have to sign off on it. One of my friends had an acute disease. It attacked the nervous system. Over time he lost his ability to speak or swallow. He had to be fed through a feeding tube and had limited mobility. He choose to end his life. As he was much loved this was sad. But not as said as continuing to live. Just on this image of God stuff. God is meant to be a formless entity. He is also all powerful and all knowledgeable. How does it make the slightest sense to say we are made in the image of God? In reality of course the old testament describes God as having physical attributes. Walking in the Garden of Eden talking to people and so forth. The formless stuff came later. But if you have the formless stuff then the image of God stuff breaks down
For those who are bored with this hour long video and not willing to watch it all, there is a funny moment at 20:40 and best at 0.25 speed. "So you are kind of looooooosssttt! Quite literaly looooooosssttt!" 🤣🤣🤣
With most of these guys, it usually doesn't take long for cracks to start showing up, and you can see that his argument isn't his own, he's just regurgitating stuff he heard from apologists, most of whom heard it from other apologists. The moment I heard this guy say "fall into absurdity", I knew he was just parroting someone else, because the phrasing is too specific. I've heard it before, and I've only heard it from the likes of Low Bar Bill and Fallacious Frank. So this guy is either a Craig/Turek acolyte, or he's hanging around with Craig/Turek acolytes, and he's never actually stopped to work out whether or not these arguments are valid, they're convincing to him and that should be good enough for the rest of us. Really, this is one of many arguments for doing as much as we can to expose the charlatans for what they are, so at least a few of these drones might take a step back and notice how ludicrous they sound to everyone who isn't in their cult.
The forefathers, while christian themselves, advocated for a secular constitution, and that's where the freedom of religion ammendment comes from... Apologist is not very smart
It's a common trope, right? "I was talking to this atheist, and he couldn't explain how x was possible without Mr. Jesus, so he converted on the spot, and everybody clapped."
Seems like religion, at least christian religion, has a clause for getting to know others not in your own faith. Do not be unequally yoked, it keeps the superstition alive and it stops people from getting to know each other, and that we're not evil for whatever we believe. If that makes sense? Sorry I'm rewiring my coded brain =)
You're coming through clearly ^_^ It seems like they don't want others to learn about other religions. That is what ended up causing me to leave Christianity. I was studying to be a pastor, and I ended up meeting people who were part of a Pagan group, and they taught about other religions, including Bobism and Jainism. I had NO idea that these religions existed in the real world, and learning that others believed their religions just as much as I believed mine was eye opening.
@@darkofalltrades That's awesome! And so very important to learn from those around us! They see things differently and that's NOT a bad thing, that's how we grow as humans! =) Thanks for spending the time to respond!
@@williambeckett6336 I did for a while, but I also mentioned the channel and the title of the video. Whike I encourage everyone to check to make sure I am not doing any dishonest editing, there are also people who I don't think people should give the views. If you are not able to find this video, I'd be happy to get the link for you. Please just let me know!
Ok Mr Pastor. EVERYTHING you said abour atheism and secularism is 100% true and that your video isn't entirely a series of argument from consequences. How does any of that makw Christianity, and specifically your version od Christianity, true? How do you square that every other religion ever provides the exact same things Christianity does?
Right! The addition of a deity doesn't actually solve any of the problems he brings up. He even mentions that believers who are doing their walk solo have the same problem. So, believing in his deity is clearly NOT a criteria here.
@@guytheincognito4186 not necessarily, but you can’t have cause without correlation. Correlation occurs necessarily where there’s cause, but cause does not necessarily exist just because there is correlation.
@@darkofalltrades sorry, I did not intend it as a complaint about your channel! Your part of the video was excellent, as usual. Don’t worry about finding any new arguments: there aren’t any. But you need to keep putting out these videos, in part because it’s fun for us, in part because you might actually get through to a theist.
No offense taken. I didn't think you were complaining about my channel, so we're all good here! But I KNOW I've gotten through to some theists. Someone I know has moved away from her church BECAUSE of my videos. She is still a Christian, but she sees all the harm the church has done and has left it. Small victories!
If you're talking about male/female, then it's a bit complicated. If you're referring to what gender really means rather what people are erroneously calling gender, then it's very complicated. Even so it is incorrect to assert that someone is in the wrong body.
I read a book once, never again, it had an ending. What a pointless and futile exercise!
I'm writing a book. Eventually I'm going to write the last word on the last page of the last draft. I guess that's a completely pointless endeavor on my part.
Do you ever wonder if religious apologists hear themselves when they say this stuff?
I tend to feel a bit of melancholy whenever I finish a game and completed everything there is to do. I guess I should stop playing new games.
@@JimmySmith692seriously, I’ve written over 50 songs and who knew each one was completely pointless!? Too bad I’m addicted to the pointless process of making things. Do you think there’s a support group for us? And btw what is your book about? 🖖🏻
@@riseofdarkleela It's a quest fantasy about a wizard trying to find a superpowerful spellbook that can bring back her destroyed village.
@@JimmySmith692i hope to be able to read it when you finish.
It takes a heck of an ego to think - `If I don't get to live for eternity as the child of an all powerful god, then my existence has no meaning!`
I was so happy on the day I was deemed old enough to be left home alone and didn't get forced to go to church on Sundays any more. It wasn't social, it was an attempt to brainwash and was simultaneously boring and offensive.
The more I understand about Christianity the less I believe it.
I already don't believe any of it.
So weird that an apologist can claim that non-belief leads to or is equal to solipsism, when I think the opposite is true. If you believe in miracles, you can never know anything for sure. I, as an empiricist, can trust with relative certainty that my chair is indeed a chair and it will support me when I sit down. To someone who believes in the god of Abraham, that chair might turn into a bunch of snakes, or it might break when you sit on it to test whether or not you'll curse Yaweh, or maybe it's a delusion because your prayer life hasn't been strong lately. An unverified unfalsifiable deity that can do anything at any time, with or without explanation, is not a solid dependable basis for determining what's real.
How do you include RUclips search terms in comments? That's the first time I've seen it.
Or, it could be my phone doing it. It went away when I asked 😂😂
@@RustyWalker it's automated, I didn't do it, it's a new thing RUclips is doing in the comments, it's neat but I'm not sure how it decides which terms to apply it to.
Or they say, “physical laws of the universe don’t have to be consistent, you don’t know gravity will work tomorrow. But if there’s a metaphysical timeless being who can change all the physical laws, he can tell the physical laws to stay the same. That’s the only way to know anything!”
@@soyevquirsefron990 I nearly didn't see the quotes then.
🤣😅
"empty album obsession" I'm nodding off at 1 AM, then I hear that and completely cracked up. Thanks for the laugh.
I like to put some humor in my videos, and the fact that one person laughed at it makes me smile.
Thank you for enjoying it!
I don't see the problem with everything being futile. It just gives more incentive to make everything more enjoyable for everyone for the time that it lasts.
As to "is anything real?", I go with: It just doesn't matter.
The universe *could* be lying to us, but it appears to be doing so in absolutely consistent ways. *Unless* there is a *way* to distinguish what we observe from *actual* reality, we are *forced* to accept our experiences as being *real* . Basically, we have no actual alternatives than to treat this as real at this time. That might be fundamentally wrong, but until we can *demonstrate* that it is wrong, there are no other choices. You can't just *guess* that it is wrong in the particular way you'd like, and then pretend that you can use that for some purpose.
When people can't (or won't) develop meaning in this life, they seek a "better" life to do it for them.
I don't know how I found your channel but glad I did and Scarlett's channel too.
I am glad you did, too! And that you found Scarlett as well!
Anything that we can do to help people with our content, if only just a little bit, makes all of the work worth it! ^_^
The more I listen to this man, the more I wonder who he's talking to? His congregation, atheists and agnostics, or himself? I get the impression he's clinging to his religion like a life raft.
He certainly sounds desperate.
Found you in my recommended videos, as a lover of Linguistics I had to subscribe 😊
Thank you for that!
I did a video with a lady named Scarlett. She is a linguistics professor as well! So if you see that collab here on my channel, she may be worth your time as well!
@@darkofalltrades I will keep an eye out for that 😊 I was planning on a binge watch today 😊
Icecream consumption increases drowning if you look at statistics
I agree that the increase is due to the increase of secular thinking. The kind of thinking that leads to the development of antidepressants and sniffing out depression.
Thanks Dark. Videos like this need to be more widely viewed. Excellent.
PS This pastor looks like he might be in a Freddie Mercury tribute band.
Except that band sounds a bit meaningless for him. Songs end, gigs end, bell end.
Challenging the Christian belief system turns them into whining puppets for Jebus.
Dark of All Trades: I'm asexual. Also, *cracks joke about cleavage.*
Me: I know, right? I'm straight, but even I think boobs are a nice visual!
Well, with regards to the subject of meaning and how we could find meaning in anything that isn't eternal, I'll give a quote from a much darker, much grimmer fictional universe from a pretty nice guy (by that universe' standards):
"The flesh is weak...but deeds endure!"
"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is spongy and bruised."
Always dislike when it's like, "Of course you depress you're an atheist. " No, im depressed because my brain does use dopamine the same way. And by Christian belief. My brain was purposefully made this way, so i get annoyed when a religious family member brings that up. "Atheist = being depressed."
Luckily, i don't talk to them much, if at all, and i have wonderful found family. Thanks for the video 😊
Thanks for opening up here. Right there with you, friend.
Thanks for being here.
I mean, I don't actually agree that the endpoint is what gives the whole thing value. I'd appreciate it if I could never die, so I could demonstrate this. Thank you for considering funding my project.
I love atheists
6:11 wait, what? People start their day without coffee???
What’s WRONG with those people?
They don't have a caffeine addiction.
@@WhiteScorpio2 psychopaths!
We're mutants!
I'd like to not have to spend extra money in order to start my day. I'll admit that sometimes it ain't easy, but I'm sure it's easier than dealing with a caffeine addiction.
Yes, what's wrong with me indeed.
Please. Explain how one position on one question can possibly be a worldview.
I can't, at all, Father Ben seemed convinced though, seems rather silly to me. I wonder if he'd think a dislike of brussel sprouts was a "worldview"?
Eh, I and my parents knew that the "theist worldview" was not for me when we accepted that I would much rather spend my Sundays at a pizza buffet for lunch rather than at a religious service.
Pizza - a truly good thing to come from Italy, unlike Christianity.
So cool how a country can give us such amazing things, and commit such atrocities, right?
13:44 "The most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is, 'I do not know'." - Data, from the Star Trek TNG episode Where Silence has Lease.
"Secularism is why everything is going to hell" is often a tip-off that the speaker doesn't judge social health by metrics like life expectancy or food availability, but by how hard they can put boot to neck on minorities
I agree 100%!
It is basically him seeing that fewer people are giving money to the church, and attendance is down, so because people are thinking differently than he does, that means their thinking must be immoral or not part of the real world.
"If you don't think like me, you're wrong" is a pretty sad position to hold. They isolate themselves and then wonder why people don't want to be isolated with them.
You know another word often used in religion that is a contranym (thank you for this word, I need it for this idea)? "Perfect". Perfect can mean 'pure' and without any flaws, and it can also mean 'whole' including even flaws.
Let's say we get past atheism being a worldview and focus on its futility for the sake of argument. It doesn't follow that we ought adopt a superstitious, irrational, and mostly false faith.
Looking for systems that introduce meaning and purpose is an investment in your own happiness and that of your social group, not an obligation.
I stubbed my toe, Iran fired missiles into Isreal.
Stubbing my toe caused Iran to fire missiles into Isreal.
No Eternal Encore? But I love that song! XD
Seriously, though, if someone speaks to me of a ‘basis for morals’, my mind turns to the actual reasons; arguments for why a moral should be accepted. If a child were told not to steal, but never learned any reasons why they should accept that rule, their adherence to that moral could be easily undone by any remotely convincing argument or circumstance. Having morals not based on authority means having to actually think about those reasons.
Ironically, what I see in this pastor’s video suggests a lack of moral basis on his part. I often see this shadow hovering behind arguments like these; the idea of ‘dishonesty is okay, because in my view, others are also lying’. This tosses aside a frequently accepted moral because of a circumstance, with little thought given to why, because the only condition was an authority and that authority has been bypassed with apparently little effort.
The problem, to me, seems to be that the authority in question is a ‘displaced’ authority; one that cannot be accessed by means that cannot be intercepted, influenced or imagined. This makes it very easy for almost anyone to appropriate that authority, and gain along with it the ability to deflect all responsibility to that displaced figure instead of accepting it. The more I watch this kind of debate, the more I can’t help but see the purpose of such belief systems as a mechanism to fabricate power that’s simultaneously free of responsibility.
45:23 as if Christians could take anything from this life to heaven or hell? What an ungodly dumb idea.
They can, they just have to learn to pack it right, and I will sell them those instructions for the low, low price of £10K.
@@pineapplepenumbra : Oh, right, didn't the ancient Egyptians have quite a library of info on how to do that? XD
@@theoaremevano3227 Shhhh! I don't want everyone knowing!!!
@@pineapplepenumbra And you're cheap, too, as it's less than 10% of their income! ;-)
Yeah I was going to say the same thing.
Is it me,or are these newer apologists full of shit? This guy,Jim Bob,Darwin To Jesus, that one guy with the stupid questions,etc,they all seem like the dirt that the bottom of the barrel sits on.
Yes they are, they’re the bottom of the barrel that’s gone far into its death throes.
"What is the point of anything you do?" "Well... it's not in service of something that isn't real, so, it's got that going for it."
It is almost as if we look at the effects our actions has on reality, and make adjustments based on those effects.
No community? I have to laugh. My wife, atheist, youngest of 11. She is their family's glue. I'm 20 years the guardian to a wheelchair bound mother and special needs 55 yo brother. I'm barely scratching the surface on the depths of my community, you scared man.
Exactly!
He is essential saying that "if it isn't the church, if it isn't exactly what I thibk, then, it isn't community."
@@darkofalltradesI lived in Texas my entire 50+ years. I wish I could say these beliefs weren't common.
Despondency and futility of my worldview? Ah, yes - the things I don't feel while living my religion-free life.
"Oh no! It's Sunday and I don't need to drive to nearest church! Woe is me!"
"Ahhh! I feel so awful enjoying my ham sandwich at Friday. Surely it tastes like despondency, I just don't feel it because of mustard."
🤣
No such thing as "the atheist world view"
My point exactly
Your view on the value increasing due to its transience reminded me of a phrase the Japanese already have: "mono no aware" (or Awareness of the Transience of Things). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to disapprove of your thoughts (I also have the same view), it does kind of show that people have thought on this for a long time, in places all over the world.
There was a quote from this one manga ("So I'm a Spider, So What?") that goes "Life is as fleeting as the mists of Adashino Cemetery. It evaporates quickly as the smoke of the Toribeyama Crematorium. If it were not so, we would take much for granted. It is this transience that gives life meaning."
As an anime and manga fan, I can definitely see how my position on things has been influenced by Japanese culture that I have been exposed to.
Excellent point!
Thanks!
Any argument that features an appearance by Robert Smith automatically wins.
But it does seem to say something that whenever an apologist runs these supposed takedowns of atheism without running it past an actual atheist, it just ends up being something of a circlejerk.
@@solomonverrico Thank you for noticing!!!
@@darkofalltrades Helps that they're finally releasing that new album after years of promises.
If you have a fine dinner do you not eat it because it will be gone?
A Christian believes "subjectively" that the bible is true, therefor: object morality exists supported by said book❗
It can be a bit frustrating to talk morality with them. I am not entirely sure they actually understand what "subjective" and "objective" mean.
That is where I like to point out all of the different flavors of Christianity, and see which ones that disagree with certain things are still objective....
indeed
That their god is necessarily benevolent is their subjective choice, not what automatically comes out when defining a necessary god and what a god necessary can be.
Wow live for something greater than myself fuck me I'd love to do something for myself but I gave up my life 15 years ago because my dad has dementia and I am his full time career but I'm just a selfish atheist that annoys the shit out of me
something that really gets under my skin is theists changing the definition of words like truth and fact.
If they can’t own the words they can’t block people from using them because they lack a certain standard.
🤷♂️
I listened this Cleave guy quite a bit and came to conclusion he is really dishonest and doesn't even attempt to convince atheists, but reinforce his followers belief system. Only futility there is his reasoning.
His Pt. 4 has 12 likes in 12 days and you have 43 in 2 hours. Not trying to go popularity fallacy road here, but question meaningfulness of responding to this guy? I mean, he has pretty much no effect on anything having 384 subs, but I can see some worth to ponder these things in general. Btw, he surprisingly skipped certain Austrian painter in his list of atheist atrocities.
I didn't even remember how ridiculously absolutist he is. I kind of understand why certainty is so seducing, but it leads to binary idiocy.
About that "what is a woman" -question, I don't wonder anymore at all how impossible it is to creationists to understand what a species is. It is really difficult to define. But possible to a satisfactory level, women and species. What seems to be impossible to all, is to define "kind" as creationists use it. Also, it's hilarious when they realize I'm white, straight, male and an ally of the rainbow. They just can't seem to understand it's possible. :D
About the personal final solution: it's clear that victim blaming (where these idiots always end up) is part of the problem, not the solution. I've known quite a few people who made the last action and all of them suffered of expectations that they couldn't fulfill. It's really sad.
Overall, solid work once again, I'm seriously considering to start actively following you instead of someone else. Time is limited.
What do you mean? It's a demonsterable fact " you can't start your day without coffee".
His name is Pastor Ben?
I think this is the first time I've encountered someone with the given name "pastor". But there are some wild names out there, so who am I to judge?
I did find it interesting that he finished by speaking of how he hoped atheists could or should respond. That blows my theory of this content being directed towards Christians.
But I find it hard to even imagine any atheists for which this content would be convincing.
@stevewebber707 my name is literally "Dark," so I am not one to criticize someone for having a different name. ^_^
A lot of apologists have their comments turned off, so responding is challenging sometimes. I am thinking about saying I made a response.
I can’t understand why all these pastors, theists, christian hypocrisies, apologetics and whatnot are so obsessed by us atheists. Could it be that they are jealous that we live a life in freedom and are happy and can concentrate on living a good and decent life here and now?!
"... nothing binding you to meet with other people"? Yeah, I felt bound by church. But this was bible-belt Canada (despite what he says, it exists) and there was no getting out of it. Leaving that town for a place where I felt like I could ask "bad" questions was the best thing I ever did.
Damn Christianity answers to the meaning of life is actually depressing. You’re a slave to christ, you exist to worship that omnipotent being to feed his ego or something. That’s a disgusting meaning.
Seriously an ant carrying gold sands to the throne of Christ? Does he really think that’s an inspirational picture? To me it brings to mind images of conquered people giving their wealth to their conqueror. It’s disgusting
Exactly!!
You know what you are, human? You are nothing but an ANT!
Yeah, you wouldn't want people to feel good about themselves. That is kind of the hallmark of Christianity. If you enjoy something, it's probably a sin.
Remember, religion is deeply founded in the traditions of the past. Traditions naturally resist change, even for the better, and traditions are really just peer pressure from dead people.
The danger of thinking that unless we take our accomplishments with us to some afterlife, we lack meaning, is two fold. First, thinking that life is just the prologue to an otherwise endless novel completely devalues the time we have here and makes people okay with just existing and not really living because the best part is yet to come. And second, when you think like this then this temporary existence is inconsequential because eternity awaits. Why care for the planet when heaven is next and its way better than this place. Why savor the moment when you have so much more and better to look forward to. It sucks the vibrance and color out of life when you think like a believer and it devalues your time and experience here and now as well as lifts the burden of ecological stewardship from the shoulders of the believer. I would not be surprised if some of these oil barons are religious people just trying to get the most out of life at the cost of the planet because why care what happens here when heaven awaits.
If you moved into a house and were told you get to live in that house for 5 years and then you will be moved into a much bigger and nicer house while new people come live in that 5 year house, would you even bother to maintain the first house or decorate it? But if you moved into a house not being promised anything afterwards, you would likely take care of the house you have not only for your self but for future generations to come. That's the difference between a person who believes in life after death and a person who believes this is the one shot we got, lets make it count.
And to risk Godwin's law, one must note that Fascism found its greatest popularity in *much* more religious societies. Religion demonstrably does not protect against the rise of wrong headed political movements.
FWIW, the font in the thumbnail had me briefly wondering what the heck an itheist is...
Meaning? Like calling atheism a "worldview".
It is simply a lack of belief in gods.
Without money, you can not buy things. The fact that you *want* to buy things though does not allow you to *assert* that you have money when you do not. In the same way, the reality that you *want* to have an externally defined purpose does not make it true. Your desires don't make it so.
The watermelon just pop into existence to make his point.
to be honest, if i did go to another place thats not in this reality, then that actually sucks. the best things in my life are here on earth. things like nature and entertainment like movies, video games and books. i dont wanna go to a place where all you can do is either worship God or suffer for eternity. both sound bad. i would literally rather live here for maybe 80 years than to live in what christians tell me heaven is fpr eternity.
Secular society is not stopping anyone from being religious or attending church if that's what they want to do. All we ask is that you not shove your beliefs down our throats. It's really not that difficult or complicated.
A lot of people are actually quite happy that one attends the church of their choice. It shows that there is freedom to do so
@@darkofalltrades I completely agree. So long as religion stays with the churches and isn't pushed into places where it doesn't belong (schools, government, healthcare, etc) we're absolutely fine. I also find it rather telling that the same people/groups that want to label things like science, evolution, etc as religions don't want to recognize some actual religions as legitimate (Satanism for example).
This pastor's approach really sucks. I don't think he's doing this intentionally, but it's like the classic grift of convincing us that we have a non-existent problem, then trying to sell us the solution.
The country I live in also had medically assisted dying. The criteria are that a person has to be likely to die in a year and is (I summarize) in acute pain. A number of medical processionals have to sign off on it. One of my friends had an acute disease. It attacked the nervous system. Over time he lost his ability to speak or swallow. He had to be fed through a feeding tube and had limited mobility. He choose to end his life. As he was much loved this was sad. But not as said as continuing to live.
Just on this image of God stuff. God is meant to be a formless entity. He is also all powerful and all knowledgeable. How does it make the slightest sense to say we are made in the image of God? In reality of course the old testament describes God as having physical attributes. Walking in the Garden of Eden talking to people and so forth. The formless stuff came later. But if you have the formless stuff then the image of God stuff breaks down
Probably mean chronic pain and disease. Acute in the context of medicine means short duration, temporary.
For those who are bored with this hour long video and not willing to watch it all, there is a funny moment at 20:40 and best at 0.25 speed. "So you are kind of looooooosssttt! Quite literaly looooooosssttt!" 🤣🤣🤣
With most of these guys, it usually doesn't take long for cracks to start showing up, and you can see that his argument isn't his own, he's just regurgitating stuff he heard from apologists, most of whom heard it from other apologists. The moment I heard this guy say "fall into absurdity", I knew he was just parroting someone else, because the phrasing is too specific. I've heard it before, and I've only heard it from the likes of Low Bar Bill and Fallacious Frank. So this guy is either a Craig/Turek acolyte, or he's hanging around with Craig/Turek acolytes, and he's never actually stopped to work out whether or not these arguments are valid, they're convincing to him and that should be good enough for the rest of us. Really, this is one of many arguments for doing as much as we can to expose the charlatans for what they are, so at least a few of these drones might take a step back and notice how ludicrous they sound to everyone who isn't in their cult.
Exactly how fast does a communion wafer dissolve in hot coffee? I assume you've tested this. 😄
The forefathers, while christian themselves, advocated for a secular constitution, and that's where the freedom of religion ammendment comes from... Apologist is not very smart
I'm pretty sure the watermelon didn't exist.
I'm also pretty sure the atheist he was talking with didn't exist either ;-)
It's a common trope, right? "I was talking to this atheist, and he couldn't explain how x was possible without Mr. Jesus, so he converted on the spot, and everybody clapped."
Seems like religion, at least christian religion, has a clause for getting to know others not in your own faith. Do not be unequally yoked, it keeps the superstition alive and it stops people from getting to know each other, and that we're not evil for whatever we believe. If that makes sense? Sorry I'm rewiring my coded brain =)
You're coming through clearly ^_^
It seems like they don't want others to learn about other religions. That is what ended up causing me to leave Christianity. I was studying to be a pastor, and I ended up meeting people who were part of a Pagan group, and they taught about other religions, including Bobism and Jainism. I had NO idea that these religions existed in the real world, and learning that others believed their religions just as much as I believed mine was eye opening.
@@darkofalltrades That's awesome! And so very important to learn from those around us! They see things differently and that's NOT a bad thing, that's how we grow as humans! =) Thanks for spending the time to respond!
Hay
You really need to start including "original video" links.
@@williambeckett6336 I did for a while, but I also mentioned the channel and the title of the video.
Whike I encourage everyone to check to make sure I am not doing any dishonest editing, there are also people who I don't think people should give the views.
If you are not able to find this video, I'd be happy to get the link for you. Please just let me know!
Ok Mr Pastor. EVERYTHING you said abour atheism and secularism is 100% true and that your video isn't entirely a series of argument from consequences.
How does any of that makw Christianity, and specifically your version od Christianity, true?
How do you square that every other religion ever provides the exact same things Christianity does?
Right!
The addition of a deity doesn't actually solve any of the problems he brings up. He even mentions that believers who are doing their walk solo have the same problem. So, believing in his deity is clearly NOT a criteria here.
Nope
Correlation doesn’t *necessarily* equal causation
No it’s indeed “correlation doesn’t equal causation” because correlation specifically can only be drawn on evidence.
In other words causation isn’t connected to correlation and therefore you have to demonstrate the evidence that connects correlation to causation.💁♂️
@@guytheincognito4186 you can’t have cause without correlation but you can have correlation without cause
@@R3ND3RR0R
Yet correlation ≠ cause.
@@guytheincognito4186 not necessarily, but you can’t have cause without correlation. Correlation occurs necessarily where there’s cause, but cause does not necessarily exist just because there is correlation.
Ignorance, arguments from ‘feels’ and good ole Christian paranoia. Nothing new here.
I promise I am looking for new stuff.
But apologists just don't have anything new to offer.
@@darkofalltrades sorry, I did not intend it as a complaint about your channel! Your part of the video was excellent, as usual. Don’t worry about finding any new arguments: there aren’t any. But you need to keep putting out these videos, in part because it’s fun for us, in part because you might actually get through to a theist.
No offense taken. I didn't think you were complaining about my channel, so we're all good here!
But I KNOW I've gotten through to some theists. Someone I know has moved away from her church BECAUSE of my videos. She is still a Christian, but she sees all the harm the church has done and has left it.
Small victories!
You obviously haven't looked or listened to science when it comes to s3x. It's not complicated.
If you're talking about male/female, then it's a bit complicated. If you're referring to what gender really means rather what people are erroneously calling gender, then it's very complicated. Even so it is incorrect to assert that someone is in the wrong body.
@@loganmedia1142 Not att all. Only the activist pretend it is.