On the one hand I am so glad to finally hear this spoken so clearly and plainly from our thought leaders, but on the other hand so disappointed that it has taken this long and will likely be a minority view for a long time. We have over indulged ourselves on identity, not considering for a moment that it might not actually lead us anywhere forward, and not realizing that the left doesn't have to give a home to identity politics as such. The right is a better home for identity politics, with the pan-ultimate example of white supremacy. So then why do we on the left simply want to recreate that and reflect it back at the right from the left? Our project should always be to transcend identity categories, not entrench ourselves in them.
It sounds like you're unaware that "the Left" IS a political identity. Also, it's NOT clear that either of these gentlemen are "our thought leaders". Finally, it's not clear who the "we" is that have "[over] indulged [themselves] on identity"??? Black Americans had identity thrust upon them and upheld through legal doctrine (i.e., partus sequitur ventrem)...for centuries. Consequently, cohesiveness based on race became necessary for survival. Based on the slew of recent state legislation geared towards disenfranchising Black voters and miseducating their children (i.e., anti-CRT legislation) political racial cohesiveness seems prudent still. Moreover, the recent racialized mainstream media depictions of Ukranian refugees (e.g., blonde, blue-eyed, White, Christian, civilized) suggests that appeals to racial identity are a global phenomenon. In fact, some historians (e.g., Gerald Horne) might suggest that public appeals to Whiteness have been a global phenomenon since the Ottomans seized Constantinople in 1453.
I have really grown to love and respect both of these thinkers and feel privileged to be an ear in on their conversation. Their discourse only improves my thinking and enriches my life. Thank you both.
In a non rhetorical way, how does a mixed race person’s baby coming out white looking when the other parent is white disqualify the entire idea of race? For me it just seems like he had a very rigid way of seeing race. Idk, he himself leans more white. I just don’t think this objectively is something that challenges the idea of race.
Thomas C Williams is brilliant and his most recent book is an essential read. A vision of a better future, going beyond the nonsense of separate races.
Yes. Voting for Obama because of his skin color. I did that twice. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but I have come to realize otherwise it was a complete joke of sorts. However, given the character of the country, I might do it again, but not without being a bit more discriminating. From now on I will only vote third party, because showing the lesser evil choice, if you can believe that old canard, back down the throat of the democratic party bosses, the ones that are sniveling servitors of the wealthiest, is the only way to get their attention regarding anything. Well, not necessarily the only way, as one still has the potential option of just giving them many millions of dollars instead. I don't feel I have that option myself though, so I will have to take a pass on that strategy. But like Micheal Jackson, Obama did prove that a black can truly essentially become very white if he or she works at it hard enough.
white identity construction. similar to how black identity is viewed. Hes arguingbfor a universal abandonment of the race as an identity, not just for black people.
I went to Primary & Secondary school in poor-ish, suburban, 60’s mid England. My class of 40 throughout these 6 years remained largely unchanged, and was 100% white, and mostly white-collar working class. Without any “social conditioning” most of us left at 11 years old having never had a real conversation with at least half of the other 39, with 8-10 close mates - and with 3-4 kids we positively disliked or distrusted. We didn’t analyse why - although it probably had to do with geography, personality types, and (shamefully) the perceived relative social-standing of our parents. The point being, without any racial ingredient whatsover, we kids STILL managed to sort ourselves into distinct sub-groups, with varying degrees of mutual antipathy. Fat kids, kids with red hair - even kids with freckles (?), had a really hard time. So now, the woke US Twitterati put so much emphasis on Race, that almost every other factor in the difficult socialisation of an inevitably disparate bunch of kids, is forgotten. Things were not great in the 60’s - but NOTHING good can ever come from the new found, knee-jerk racial hyper-awareness, encouraged by those who should know better amongst the impressionable kids of Gen Z.
A great conversation between two clear and open minds - on a subject that DEMANDS more quality interaction - and infinitely less knee-jerk Groupthink. I suspect there is still clear daylight between their respective positions, but the discussion is respectful and positive at all times ..............
Interesting discussion and comments below. I was intrigued by the idea that...if relinquishing identity means relinquishing race...then it ALSO means relinquishing ethnicity, religion, culture (e.g., Jewishness)...all equally divisive social constructs. Valid observation. What I was hoping to hear discussed was how the desire to homogenize society is a characteristically totalitarian goal. It's an admission that I cannot respect you sufficiently unless I can see you as being the same as me. The desire to homogenize is what led to the genocide of the Indigenous inhabitants. It says: "Why can't you, simply, be like us? It would make things so much easier". Finally, the elimination of race might work for someone who presents as race-ambiguous. Not sure how the elimination of race will work for our darker skinned family. The recent mainstream media descriptions of the Ukranian refugees/evacuees as being worthy of our collective grief because they were "white/Christian/blonde/European/civilized" suggests that any move to eliminate race might easily wind up as a pogrom against dark skinned humans.
My sense is that Americans will all eventually be "mixed" (if global warming doesn't get us first.) I see in my millennial daughter's generation more ethnically diverse relationships. She (white) is married to an Asian man. My niece (Catholic) is married to a Jewish man. The tribal categories are dying.
Here’s what bothers me. I looked at the DNC website. There’s no 17 different platforms or identities to choose from. Why say something like this if it isn’t true? Idk if Williams is lying or just grossly inaccurate.
@@williamerdman4888 not sure I understand what you are telling me. TCW told us there were 17 different platforms &/or identities to choose from on the DNC website. That shocked me. So of course I checked it out. And it wasn’t true. So I’m not sure what he was referring to… but when I quoted him, I got my rear end shredded because what he stated as fact wasn’t true. And I don’t like it when someone I respect speaks falsely. Because it doesn’t help any of us.
Everyone is different, though we share many similarities. There is nothing wrong with recognizing our differences and celebrating them. The problem is capitalism, it was at the start of the United States and still is...Its interesting how black pseudo-intellectuals become like Buddhist monks when it comes to race and how it should evolve in the United States. Rarely do I see this zen-like quality applied to their desire for wealth and recognition...Why must the black bourgeois constantly tell poor blacks how to think and feel about being black?
The Barack Obama example is weird too, the reason he is called Black is the people’s understanding of what is. Walking down the street, when he is seen by white people (the majority) he is seen as Black, but to Black people it is understood he is half black and that white peoples would see him as black before mixed or white. That is why he is called the first black President by whites who view him as Black, and POC’s who see him as mixed but know walking down the street, etc, he’d be seen as black.
Black people do NOT see half-Black people as half-Black. They see them (e.g., Steph Curry, Drake, Rashida Jones) as Black. Barack Obama posed a different question because neither of his parents were African American. Ultimately, this may have been what made him palatable to Whites. A frequent White American refrain, in the case with foreign born/heritage Blacks, being..."You're not like THOSE Blacks"
Beneath the surface of skin politics, the naked EGO’s “relationships” are purely for individual benefits-not ideology or “love.” In a world of scarce resources “IT” sorts, segregates and discriminates to preserve ITSELF. Self-serving “Asian” and “African” cohorts choose European partners to make their lives easier under the de facto global “system” of “white” supremacy. This is the icy logic of how the EGO functions. When observing ugly skin/caste politics in Tunisia, Brazil, The Philippines, Mexico and the Sudan, as examples, it’s plain that after hundreds of years of “mixing” with colonizers, the preference for “light” skin is incurably ingrained “forever.” There’s no point in discussing India. It’s Pollyannish to believe that US “race” relations-with its horrible historic and contemporary issues-won’t follow these trajectories without honesty and reparative justice. Reality hurts; so does the pain created trying to escape reality. Historically, some “curated” persons with one “white” parent are impishly “used” to poison, flatten, derail and silence long-standing justice claims of more phenotypically “African” blacks. The iteration of this stratagem underlies the current blitz of “mixed” race and “racially ambiguous” media advertising to project the US as a “post-racial” country. So-called Universalists and progressives can be found behind efforts that claim, “class” not “racism” is root of “black” issues. Now, we even see efforts to “disappear” overwhelming evidence of “white” gang “membership. To what end? The “black versus white” symbolism behind George Floyd’s murder-the “flag” of his dark face being figuratively stepped on in this savage “bonding ritual”-is a showcase of supreme Power over the hapless. Some exasperated and depressed “non-white” people throw in the towel, and become Empire proxies and worse-in the mistaken belief that they are escaping pain. When tested, Judas betrayed Christ. It didn’t work out. All attempts to wish away the predictable consequences of colonialism, imperialism, ethnic cleansing, chattel slavery, racism, genocide, and simple common decency--Will not be solved without bitter introspection as to Why… “The world without is a reflection of the world within.” Let’s exterminate the “brute” - the rampaging Ego.
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On the one hand I am so glad to finally hear this spoken so clearly and plainly from our thought leaders, but on the other hand so disappointed that it has taken this long and will likely be a minority view for a long time. We have over indulged ourselves on identity, not considering for a moment that it might not actually lead us anywhere forward, and not realizing that the left doesn't have to give a home to identity politics as such. The right is a better home for identity politics, with the pan-ultimate example of white supremacy. So then why do we on the left simply want to recreate that and reflect it back at the right from the left? Our project should always be to transcend identity categories, not entrench ourselves in them.
It sounds like you're unaware that "the Left" IS a political identity. Also, it's NOT clear that either of these gentlemen are "our thought leaders". Finally, it's not clear who the "we" is that have "[over] indulged [themselves] on identity"??? Black Americans had identity thrust upon them and upheld through legal doctrine (i.e., partus sequitur ventrem)...for centuries. Consequently, cohesiveness based on race became necessary for survival. Based on the slew of recent state legislation geared towards disenfranchising Black voters and miseducating their children (i.e., anti-CRT legislation) political racial cohesiveness seems prudent still. Moreover, the recent racialized mainstream media depictions of Ukranian refugees (e.g., blonde, blue-eyed, White, Christian, civilized) suggests that appeals to racial identity are a global phenomenon. In fact, some historians (e.g., Gerald Horne) might suggest that public appeals to Whiteness have been a global phenomenon since the Ottomans seized Constantinople in 1453.
I have really grown to love and respect both of these thinkers and feel privileged to be an ear in on their conversation. Their discourse only improves my thinking and enriches my life. Thank you both.
In a non rhetorical way, how does a mixed race person’s baby coming out white looking when the other parent is white disqualify the entire idea of race? For me it just seems like he had a very rigid way of seeing race. Idk, he himself leans more white. I just don’t think this objectively is something that challenges the idea of race.
Thomas C Williams is brilliant and his most recent book is an essential read. A vision of a better future, going beyond the nonsense of separate races.
Yes. Voting for Obama because of his skin color. I did that twice. I thought it was a good idea at the time, but I have come to realize otherwise it was a complete joke of sorts. However, given the character of the country, I might do it again, but not without being a bit more discriminating. From now on I will only vote third party, because showing the lesser evil choice, if you can believe that old canard, back down the throat of the democratic party bosses, the ones that are sniveling servitors of the wealthiest, is the only way to get their attention regarding anything. Well, not necessarily the only way, as one still has the potential option of just giving them many millions of dollars instead. I don't feel I have that option myself though, so I will have to take a pass on that strategy. But like Micheal Jackson, Obama did prove that a black can truly essentially become very white if he or she works at it hard enough.
What is whiteness and why would one get rid of it? Thomas is alright sometimes, but sometimes he's real bad.
white identity construction. similar to how black identity is viewed. Hes arguingbfor a universal abandonment of the race as an identity, not just for black people.
@@tezike What is the white identity?
TCW is an educated Uncle Ruckus
hes a straight weirdo
I went to Primary & Secondary school in poor-ish, suburban, 60’s mid England. My class of 40 throughout these 6 years remained largely unchanged, and was 100% white, and mostly white-collar working class.
Without any “social conditioning” most of us left at 11 years old having never had a real conversation with at least half of the other 39, with 8-10 close mates - and with 3-4 kids we positively disliked or distrusted. We didn’t analyse why - although it probably had to do with geography, personality types, and (shamefully) the perceived relative social-standing of our parents.
The point being, without any racial ingredient whatsover, we kids STILL managed to sort ourselves into distinct sub-groups, with varying degrees of mutual antipathy.
Fat kids, kids with red hair - even kids with freckles (?), had a really hard time.
So now, the woke US Twitterati put so much emphasis on Race, that almost every other factor in the difficult socialisation of an inevitably disparate bunch of kids, is forgotten.
Things were not great in the 60’s - but NOTHING good can ever come from the new found, knee-jerk racial hyper-awareness, encouraged by those who should know better amongst the impressionable kids of Gen Z.
A great conversation between two clear and open minds - on a subject that DEMANDS more quality interaction - and infinitely less knee-jerk Groupthink. I suspect there is still clear daylight between their respective positions, but the discussion is respectful and positive at all times ..............
Weird to not even mention Adoplh Reed Jr being he has been decades ahead of this conversation.
Such a privilege to be listening on, to a conversation between two gracious people. Making meaning graciously.
Interesting discussion and comments below. I was intrigued by the idea that...if relinquishing identity means relinquishing race...then it ALSO means relinquishing ethnicity, religion, culture (e.g., Jewishness)...all equally divisive social constructs. Valid observation. What I was hoping to hear discussed was how the desire to homogenize society is a characteristically totalitarian goal. It's an admission that I cannot respect you sufficiently unless I can see you as being the same as me. The desire to homogenize is what led to the genocide of the Indigenous inhabitants. It says: "Why can't you, simply, be like us? It would make things so much easier". Finally, the elimination of race might work for someone who presents as race-ambiguous. Not sure how the elimination of race will work for our darker skinned family. The recent mainstream media descriptions of the Ukranian refugees/evacuees as being worthy of our collective grief because they were "white/Christian/blonde/European/civilized" suggests that any move to eliminate race might easily wind up as a pogrom against dark skinned humans.
My sense is that Americans will all eventually be "mixed" (if global warming doesn't get us first.) I see in my millennial daughter's generation more ethnically diverse relationships. She (white) is married to an Asian man. My niece (Catholic) is married to a Jewish man. The tribal categories are dying.
I hope you give scholarships for this course to law enforcement.
A swarthy white American..that’s diffferent
Here’s what bothers me. I looked at the DNC website. There’s no 17 different platforms or identities to choose from. Why say something like this if it isn’t true? Idk if Williams is lying or just grossly inaccurate.
RIck, can you really say, you don't think the Democrats are playing identity politics? I think that is completely obvious.
@@williamerdman4888 I just hate it when someone I like spreads a falsehood.
@@rickcleveland310 I do think he was referring to the reference when he said it.... play it back and see if you agree.
@@williamerdman4888 not sure I understand what you are telling me. TCW told us there were 17 different platforms &/or identities to choose from on the DNC website. That shocked me. So of course I checked it out. And it wasn’t true. So I’m not sure what he was referring to… but when I quoted him, I got my rear end shredded because what he stated as fact wasn’t true. And I don’t like it when someone I respect speaks falsely. Because it doesn’t help any of us.
@@rickcleveland310 I certainly agree with your last point.
just human
What a fool this man is.
Everyone is different, though we share many similarities. There is nothing wrong with recognizing our differences and celebrating them. The problem is capitalism, it was at the start of the United States and still is...Its interesting how black pseudo-intellectuals become like Buddhist monks when it comes to race and how it should evolve in the United States. Rarely do I see this zen-like quality applied to their desire for wealth and recognition...Why must the black bourgeois constantly tell poor blacks how to think and feel about being black?
Where on the DNC website are these 17 different fragmented platforms?
The Barack Obama example is weird too, the reason he is called Black is the people’s understanding of what is. Walking down the street, when he is seen by white people (the majority) he is seen as Black, but to Black people it is understood he is half black and that white peoples would see him as black before mixed or white. That is why he is called the first black President by whites who view him as Black, and POC’s who see him as mixed but know walking down the street, etc, he’d be seen as black.
Black people do NOT see half-Black people as half-Black. They see them (e.g., Steph Curry, Drake, Rashida Jones) as Black. Barack Obama posed a different question because neither of his parents were African American. Ultimately, this may have been what made him palatable to Whites. A frequent White American refrain, in the case with foreign born/heritage Blacks, being..."You're not like THOSE Blacks"
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fantastic
Beneath the surface of skin politics, the naked EGO’s “relationships” are purely for individual benefits-not ideology or “love.” In a world of scarce resources “IT” sorts, segregates and discriminates to preserve ITSELF.
Self-serving “Asian” and “African” cohorts choose European partners to make their lives easier under the de facto global “system” of “white” supremacy. This is the icy logic of how the EGO functions.
When observing ugly skin/caste politics in Tunisia, Brazil, The Philippines, Mexico and the Sudan, as examples, it’s plain that after hundreds of years of “mixing” with colonizers, the preference for “light” skin is incurably ingrained “forever.” There’s no point in discussing India.
It’s Pollyannish to believe that US “race” relations-with its horrible historic and contemporary issues-won’t follow these trajectories without honesty and reparative justice.
Reality hurts; so does the pain created trying to escape reality.
Historically, some “curated” persons with one “white” parent are impishly “used” to poison, flatten, derail and silence long-standing justice claims of more phenotypically “African” blacks. The iteration of this stratagem underlies the current blitz of “mixed” race and “racially ambiguous” media advertising to project the US as a “post-racial” country.
So-called Universalists and progressives can be found behind efforts that claim, “class” not “racism” is root of “black” issues. Now, we even see efforts to “disappear” overwhelming evidence of “white” gang “membership. To what end?
The “black versus white” symbolism behind George Floyd’s murder-the “flag” of his dark face being figuratively stepped on in this savage “bonding ritual”-is a showcase of supreme Power over the hapless.
Some exasperated and depressed “non-white” people throw in the towel, and become Empire proxies and worse-in the mistaken belief that they are escaping pain. When tested, Judas betrayed Christ. It didn’t work out.
All attempts to wish away the predictable consequences of colonialism, imperialism, ethnic cleansing, chattel slavery, racism, genocide, and simple common decency--Will not be solved without bitter introspection as to Why…
“The world without is a reflection of the world within.” Let’s exterminate the “brute” - the rampaging Ego.