I think Pan flying as a baby, but still needing to learn as a toddler makes some sense. It's like real life newborns they instinctively know how to swim, but later in life need to learn how to swim.
There's also the Dragon Balls. Beerus could've made the dinos go extinct and someone could've wished the dinosaurs back. Same thing with the furry people. Someone made a wish
I think retcons based on “you were previously misinformed” is usually acceptable. Take piccolo being an alien and not a demon and it catching piccolo off guard. We don’t entirely know what memories he kept from the original, so this knowledge could have been lost and he simply reiterated what he had heard in his life.
Don't forget that after fusing with Nail, and then Kami, Piccolo also added a lot of new knowledge about basically everything. That's why in Daima Piccolo knows about Namekians originating in the Demon Realm, even if not him, Nail, Kami, or King Piccolo ever lived in the Demon Realm, just at least one of them knew about that fact. My hypothesis is that it was Nail who was told about it by Elder Guru who is the only survivor of the previous generation of Namekians, all of the others are Guru's offspring(not Kami+King Piccolo, they were spawned by another mystery namekian Guru identifies as "Katatsu").
@@Shinmsl Wait wait wait wait... So you're telling me that the demons, that were actually aliens, are actually demons that BECAME aliens, and were mistaken for demons that were actually aliens? -A Retcon within a Retcon- A Retcon of a Retcon??
Goku wearing armor when he landed on earth _only_ contradicts the anime. The original manga never actually showed the scene where Grandpa Gohan found him.
I KNEW IT! I questioned that & was immediately like "I'm positive the only things that show goku was found by G. Gohan naked in the pod was added scenes in Z & the Bardock special neither of which were written by Tori."
So, you'd think Roshi would've mentioned it and make the connection with Raditz. Like, you'd think Gohan would tell him "Oh, yeah, I found this weird ass baby wearing armor with crazy yellow shoulder pads and skirt" because it's such a strange sight. And Raditz thinks of Goku as a baby infant without armor, with the lack of information implying that is in fact how he came to earth.
@@struggler6864 Ahh but Baby Goku in Raditz imagination in the manga could be explained easily as that was how Raditz actually saw him for the last time, in his pod. Remember that in the Super Broly movie Raditz is off planet by the time Goku was sent to earth, so he might not really had known the specifics of his arrival. Same with Roshi, Gohan might have said he found a kid with a tail, but the clothing seems trivial. I think the most strange thing about the armor is that it wasn't anywhere in Gohan's house. He just disliked it and threw it away? XD
By ignoring the Moro and Granolah arcs, you do miss some important ones like how the version of Boo who is reincarnated into Oob isn't the pure version as previously thought, but rather one which retains the special powers of the Kaioshin he absorbed.
I would say Vegeta joining the tournament to fight Goku isn't even a retcon. Gohan said he was joining, then 30 seconds later, Goku calls from the afterlife and says he'll join. Vegeta could've just thought to himself "that's a much better reason to join" and changed his reasoning since both joining were announced at the same time.
Something to think about. Retcons that are created from one perspective to another. For example Raditz, he said young saiyans are sent to planets with low power levels to train. Raditz wasn't there when goku was sent away. Not even sure how raditz knew goku was sent away. But if he knew of his existence in away way, he would have assumed he was sent away like all other young saiyans and not sent away for his safety.
Same applies of him saying that Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a Meteor, he could be lying, or that could be him not wanting to believe what Vegeta thought, maybe he didn't want to believe Frieza was the one he wiped the entire planet. Since the story never share much of Raditz in the manga, and in the Z anime those scenes were added by Toei without Toriyama's counsel.
In the broly movie, raditz just says "mom said". So even though he was already off world, presumably he called in to them between goku being sent off world and the destruction of planet vegeta
@@awesomedavid2012 that would have been a very strong scene. Raditz mom calling him, letting him know about his brother and there's this very small moment of him showing emotion then toughens up before heading back.
19:13 Personally, I can buy that Pan has to relearn how to fly because babies have instinctive reflexes that mimic swimming but lose those reflexes as they get older. Possibly she unlocked flight as a reflex when she was an infant and lost it over time. Not saying it isn't a retcon, just saying "I believe it."
Vegeta was genuinely surprised Tarble was still alive. Since Tarble was the black sheep of the family, Vegeta never bothered contacting him and he certainly would not have talked with Raditz about him.
I can see that as him not wanting to acknowledge him when he was evil, and even not thinking he was alive, but nobody making a single mention of Tarble in Super is just weird.
15:32 Many have actually argued this was a joke not translated well into english, where Goku was merely surprised by Trunks feeding Mai mouth to mouth, which Vegeta misunderstood to mean kissing.
15:34 MARK FOR THE LOVE OF KAMI THAT WASN'T ABOUT HIM KISSING CHICHI! HE SAW TRUNKS DO THE MAMA BIRD THING AND VEGETA THOUGHT IT HE WAS REFFERING TO KISSING!
Hey heads ups the whole "Goku never kissed Chi-Chi" thing isnt a retcon but a mistranslated or even misunderstood joke where its more about Goku thinking shoving food into someone's mouth is kissing Its not translated to English well nor understood properly
In the manga it is literally specified to be exactly what people thought. Vegeta asks him flat-out "You've never kissed her?!" and Goku confirms that indeed he does not know what that entails.
There's something regarding this lore by Toriyama himself: in the game DB Online (in which Toriyama worked extensively) Namekians player characters came in two types: Warriors and Magicians(and that was mentioned in the Namek Saga many times), the Magician ones could spawn sort of "familiar" demon/monsters that very much were inspired by those creatures that King Piccolo made, and he literally called to them as his sons and his family. The literal clone he did when he made Piccolo Jr. may have being an special power he himself only had, he was ancient so he could've learned/created all sort of weird techniques over his life.
Mark's point was that making a clone of himself wasn't something established by King Piccolo. All of eggs before that were not clones but completely different from Piccolo.
In the number 4 case, Raditz dont necesarily have to know the reason why Goku was really sent to earth. Saiyans are ussually send to planets to conquer, so Raditz could had assumed thats the reason Goku was sent to earth. The retcon only changes the fact that Raditz shouldnt know where Goku is because on Minus only Bardock and Gine knows where they send Goku.
That was gonna be my reasoning, too. Raditz was a low level warrior. He'd be on a "need to know" basis for most things. He probably learned that his father sent his brother off not long before the genocide, but not the why. As he's a proud saiyan conquistador, he probably just thought that Kakarot was just sent on a mission of low risk to get him his first feel of conquest and promptly forgot about him, as Kakarot would either return when done or die in the process. When Raditz was arriving, he was probably thinking he'd congratulate his brother on his conquest or offer to help expedite it if he was struggling. Never in a million years was he expecting his brother to be living a quiet life of not-genocide.
I think the reason this topic is so contentious is the fact that the definition of a retcon is very broad and it sorta spills into other literary devices such as reveals which means that people often contend with each other over differences in their interpretation of the definition of a retcon
The Mafuba not killing Kami, Piccolo, or Trunks can be explained by them being stronger than Master Roshi, since they had more energy to burn so it didn’t kill them. This also explains Blue Evolution Vegeta not dying from using the final explosion in the anime.
Calling Zuno a retcon feels like a bit of a stretch. Beerus could have very easily just not known about him. Edit: Also Roshi not wanting to get in the way is only a retcon in the manga continuity, not the anime. This is mainly because of his fight with the bird guy in the anime, where Roshi talks about how Goku and Krillin continuing to aim higher helped him realize he was still capable of breaking his own limits. That’s character development, not a retcon.
I mean, he did open up talking about the re-definition of retcon again, and did mention that a lot of the subjective interpretation of it relies on how you feel about it when it was revealed and *boy* did people have a lot of feelings about it when it was revealed
With the Amount of Retcons Modern DragonBall has gone thru I just look at the series as a Choose your own adventure book these days lmaoo Original Story DB to DBZ DB to DBZ + Bardock special DB to DBZ + Bardock Special + Certain movies from the original 13 you can squeeze in & make them fit the story DB to DBZ + Bardock special + Certain DBZ movies + Dragonball GT DB to DBZ to Super DB to DBZ to Super Manga DB to DBZ to Daima Etc Etc etc. Trunks and that Time Kai from Xenoverse just lookin at all these different realities hahahahaha
The Mafuba one isn't really a retcon in either direction imo. Shortly after the technique's introduction and Roshi's death from using it Tien himself learns it and uses it several times in a row during while training without dying. He's shown to be exhausted at the end but still upright implying that it was more about Mutaito and Roshi being weaker than Tien at this point in the story. This is reinforced later by Kami, who is stronger than all three of the other users, using the technique once and being seemingly unaffected. Piccolo Jr's use can't really say anything one way or the other because it's a different technique, the Mafuba Gaeki, which exists for the purpose of *countering* the Mafuba, and so we don't know if it has the same stamina drainging effects.
15:50 for the Mafuba Tien also survived it even though he was just winded I think it was because they were strong enough to do it properly whereas Roshi and Mutaito were just too old, I'm just spitballing but I always viewed it as the Final Fantasy 4 Meteor situation
8:30 if our interpretation doesnt matter because authors intent trumps it then we can still argue goku being a saiyan is 100% NOT a retcon. Nothing in OG db says that goku IS human, infact most elements point to him not being human. Nobody else has a tail or transforms into a giant ape. From this we can easily say there was no intention of trying to say goku was human so therefore if your personal interpretation was that he is human that doesnt matter, still not a retcon
Sorry to do this to you Mark, but Elder Guru never stated that the Scions of the Dragon Clan “created the Dragon Balls,” he says that they “create Dragon Balls,” which is a completely different statement- Now how they found out about the Dragon Balls and went about making them is iffy, but the Super Dragon Balls are stated to be scattered across both the 6th and 7th Universes, so it can be assumed that the very early Namekians found one of the Super Dragon Balls and developed their own weaker versions of them for unknown reasons?
20:14 if I recall correctly shen long when asked for ice cream shen long also gave a box of ice to keep the ice cream cold free of charge So I think shen long is just doing it on his own accord
The claim that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than Vegeta and Goku was insanely dumb. Like Jiren didn't blink away a Final Flash while being held in a stranglehold.
that depends. if you count movie version as third along anime and manga, that statment is way more beliveable, considering relatively smaler power gaps between characters.
I think it kinda fits with what Ultra Instict is (said) to be, which is not a direct power boost at all, just your body naturally reacting in efficent ways without wasting it on conscious thought.... which in PRACTICE looks like "goku can now punch harder and fly faster" (In addition to the dodging, of course) This kinda just recontexualizes Jiren as like, "he was kinda doing the same sort of thing too, guy was a mother effer of a meditator and all"
9:50 to his knowledge goku was sent to destroy it because thats what all saiyans are sent out to do as babies. That's important wording, to his knowledge, because it adds emphasis to the fact that Bardock sent Goku away in secret.
Commenting before watching the video. I do wonder if Mark learned what is a Retcon by now and what is a reveal. E.g. Goku being an alien is not a retcon, it's a reveal.
I would argue that the Namekians being from the demon realm originally isn't so much a retcon as an expansion. Since Piccolo learns about being a Namekian from Saiyans, who have no real context for demons and mortals, they probably thought he was an alien as well; since Piccolo's only information on his own species were from his father and Kami, both of whom are effectively exiles who don't really talk about their homeworld, makes sense that the Saiyans would think he's an alien while both he and the mortals would think he's a demon. So they're both right, just in thw wrong directions.
and then he fused with Nail in the Namek Saga, and added a lot of new knowledge, so I imagine that's where he got what he says in Daima , about knowing Namekians did originate in the demon realm, but he never visited, he just knew the story.
I'm glad you pointed out "Retcon #33", especially since both Goku and Vegeta were originally utilizing ability known as "Saiyan Beyond God" which is a state of being in where a saiyan is able to utilize God Ki without having to change their appearance thus making it look like they are in their base forms when in reality they're not. S.B.G was introduced in the "Fukkatsu No F" film and was shown in the DBS anime in episodes 20 and 22.
From my understanding, the "Goku and Chichi never kissing" thing is a joke that doesn't really translate well because of how Japanese grammar works. Goku was actually surprised about Trunks baby birding the senzu bean to Mai, but Vegeta misunderstood it to be that Goku didn't know what kissing was. Essentially it's the Japanese equivalent to the "Who's on first?" joke.
Okay the thing about Roshi in the tournament of power, is that he specifically says that watching those boys fight after sitting out inspired him to get back into training.
Pan learning how to fly is not a retcon. That is typical baby behaviour. Babies have a lot of instincts that can make them do things that they easily forget later on in life. Swimming is a perfect example in this. Somehow babies are able to swim a little bit to at least stay on the surface to survive. And I wouldn't be surprised if Pan, a toddler who was able to instinctively fly just because is something she forgets after she grew up.
I don’t want to correct the lore master here but wasn’t the “Goku and Chichi never kissed” thing a result of translation. Because Goku sees Trunks give a senzu bean via mouth to moth to Mai and Goku is commenting that he’s never see that (beaning via mouth) before, but Vegeta thinks he’s referring to kissing. From what I’ve heard the joke is much clearer in Japanese and didn’t translate as well to English which lead to confusion. That’s at least what I choose to believe because if Goku has had 2 kids with a woman he’s never kissed then there are some problems.
I think the same thing happened as well with Super Hero with Goku being confused about meditating as a form of training. Iirc, I think the manga got it right, but I want to say it was moreso Goku was surprised to see Vegeta doing meditation training as Vegeta had never done it before, not Goku having no idea what it is. Goku definitely dumbed down in Super (still love the guy though), but your example and the meditation ones I will defend Goku on, because he's not dumb to those things.
There's a great video that explains where the "little extra" that Shenlong gave to Piccolo came from. I think it was Carthu's Dojo who made it. Tl;dr, since Z Dende has made a new dragon statue for Shenlong, essentially making it his dragon. Therefore, the piece of Kami-sama's power that went into making the original dragon was returned to Piccolo, finally making him whole. This also explains the orange color scheme, as it's a reference to the dragon balls themselves, and Kami's affiliation with the Dragon clan. The tree symbol on his back is also a reference to the Ajisa trees that are sacred to the Namekians.
I kinda though Pan's flying as a baby as sort of that case of her having natural gifts that got more difficult for her to use when she started having to think and train. However odd it was lol Also; I fully expect Trunks and Goten to talk about tingly backs one day.
17:41 okay controversial take, i know, but i feel like the tingling in the back to transform into super saiyan has never actually been a retcon more of a reveal, why ? because it explains why Goten and kid Trunks can transform into ssj without ever going trough that kind of trauma or gruelling trainning. AND before someone say it, no goten training with chichi is anime only (in the manga he mention that he just transformed before her and she said to not to because "delinquant" and all that) and trunks in the manga barely trained with vegeta in the gravity room before the months that lead to the tenkaichi budokai so he did not do any of the stated requierment. So, to me, it is just a reveal on why the kids could just transform without explanation.
Its like teaching some one how to do a work out the way you do it after learn it the hard way. Once you figure out a trick to do it, you pass that info along.
my take on shenron bringing frieza back in pieces is that shenron is only required to grant the wish as its worded, genie rules, but because shenrons a cool guy he will usually intuit it in a more beneficial way or at least warn people when their wish wouldent work out like they expect, but naturally you get no such consideration when your trying to revive space hitler and shenron just said "aight fuck it enjoy being cubes dipshit", this also matches with shenron throwing in extra
Retcons are weird because what could be considered a retcon by some others would say has some pre-established wiggle room to not be a retcon. Like the Super Saiyan God needing a ritual. At it's core it's just a Saiyan using God Ki. So it can be argued a Saiyan that learns to use it and master it can access it without the ritual. At the very least, that seems to be what people go with.
Yeah i thought most fans accepted theres 2 known ways for God form: the ritual or learning to access God Ki on your own at will. Both ways can co existn just one is more complicated.
9:45 I could be wrong but this isn't necessarily a retcon if you could consider that Radditz was saying things out of assumptions based on the 'saiyan tradition' of sending children to other planets for the sole purpose of claiming said planets
18:47 Well we never see King Vegeta alive during that time. For all we know, Freeza could have killed him beforehand and then blew up the entire planet. It would have been a retcon if we saw the King staring at Freeza's Energy Ball from the planet like the other saiyans. 20:24 Bulma just says she's going to use the Dragon Balls to become younger. Nowhere does it say that she has never used the Dragon Balls to do this before. So technically not a retcon either.
Goku being a Saiyan is 100% factually NOT a retcon. It just isn't. It doesn't matter how you feel or how you interpret the story. The fact remains that his heritage is not talked about or mentioned at all before the beginning of Z, so the reveal of him being a Saiyan does not challenge any pre-established narrative. It just doesn't. Sorry.
I think it's still a little unclear what is or isn't a retcon here. Retcon is when already established information is changed, end of question. Like, Goku coming to Earth with Saiyan armor doesn't change any previously established information, since we never saw, in the manga, how Goku arrived on Earth, and it wasn't said that Goku was always wearing that outfit throughout the classic, so what it seems is that he just changed his clothes, he broke something, he just didn't have those clothes anymore when the classic started
I will say that regarding the thing about not using the SSG ritual, in the manga Vegeta and Goku both used the form without the ritual. Vegeta used the God-to-Blue swap technique against Goku Black and Zamasu.
Retcon 4 at 9:45 I argue that it can be a reveal of sorts. It's entirely possible that Raditz was under the assumption that Goku was sent to the planet to destroy it. He's a character that doesn't have all the information. He was literally on a planet destroying journey with Vegeta when they got the news the planet blew up.
Retcon 44 is arguable. Dendi said he's not old enough to unlock Piccolo's potential meaning it's a power he has but can't yet access. A restriction that may not apply to shenron
yeah what "beyond the creator's power" means in a practical sense is vague at best. Like we never see Kami or Dende revive someone without dragonballs, nor does anyone suggest they could even when it'd be much more convenient, so I don't think it's a matter of what they're capable of doing as an individual and more something like the theoretical limits of their magic's potential. Hell, Daima suggests that the reason you can't hurt people through wishes is because they're white magic, which would actually be a different retcon Mark missed
For Super Saiyan God, in Battle of Gods when Beerus tosses the energy ball at Goku, Goku retaps into Super Saiyan God out of sheer will to dissipate the energy ball. So he does appear to learn how to activate the form at will, similar to Vegeta, but he’s still new to it at the time so he still needs practice. Also, while he does lose the form during the fight in Battle of Gods and Super, I believe in both his body retained most of the boost/knowledge of the power which allowed him to at least attempt to fight Beerus while still being in Super Saiyan (I’m assuming 2) form. So being able to tap back into it on his own without a ritual isn’t out of the question.
You've completely misunderstood 15:35, its a mistranslation from the English translation of the manga and sub, goku was talking about how he's never feed food mouth to mouth to Chi chi and vegeta thought he was talking about kissing
Potara wasn't retconned by Super but it was retconned in Z and Daima. Potara fusion was supposed to be permanent but Goku and Vegeta unfused inside of Buu (Goku speculated that's because of the magic gasses within him, but Goku isn't a relaiable source of information about magic) so DBZ left us with Goku and Vegeta mysteriously unfusing without any explenation. Dragon Ball Daima confirmed that gasses within Buu can cancel out potara fusion, so that's a retcon. Dragon Ball Super was made before Daima so it gave us first ever explenation of why Goku and Vegeta unfused and this explenation was the time limit. It's not a retcon because when Daima wasn't a thing it was just an information that fills in the gap in the concistancy in the Dragon Ball Series.
I would argue the 'tingly back' thing isn't necessarily a retcon; we know that Saiyans in universe 6 are a bit different from universe 7 Saiyans (having a higher base PL for one thing, and not having tails). It could be that they can achieve Super Saiyan easier or in a different way from universe 7 Saiyans.
19:34 I'm SO glad you pointed out this. So many people act like this isn't a contradiction at all to what Jiren showed in the TOP, yet it is very obvious several times in the TOP that Jiren is MUCH stronger than goku and vegeta. Jiren is stronger than UI Goku, who is stronger than Kefla, who is much stronger than blue kaioken goku, who is much stronger than Blue vegeta, so blue vegeta and goku was never close to Jirens full power
Raditz, the story The Goku actually makes sense. There is no way his mom and dad were going to tell him that they thought Frieza was going to kill them all. Not only is he with Little Prince Vegeta, but he's also with a bunch of saying the leads they would have probably snitched or said something. Which would make Goku be in danger. Especially since he was safe because he was with Vegeta off Planet Goku needed an excuse to be off for other than the fact that he was trying to get out of there.
18:47 I suppose we don’t know if Frieza and King Vegeta had an altercation. It’s entirely possible that King Vegeta met with Frieza to ask him what he needed with all the Saiyans and at that time Frieza dispatched him easily. We don’t see a lot in the interim between all the Saiyans being called back to Vegeta and when Bardock made his last stand.
the raditz going to the afterlife one isent a retcon because it specifically says they cant ascend, ei heaven, and radits went to hell, demons condemning people to hell makes total sense
13:20 Pretty sure that's because Freeza was still alive after the slice and dice, and the revival brought him back to his last alive state. Maybe he *could've* brought Freeza back pristine, but we now know the dragon can exercise discretion.
6:43 He is a demon AND a alien, one thing does not replace the other. And it's not about Daima either, it's always been like that. Kami didn't stop being a God because he's an alien
Except it wouldn't be established until much later that he is in fact a demon. The entire point of bringing it up is that the series itself went out of its way to change his background only to much later change it again.
I have always assumed that Demons in Dragon Ball were more like an RPG class than a race. At the start of z, Kami stated that Raditz and Goku's souls finding their way to the otherworld implied that Piccolo was not a demon anymore, otherwise their souls would end up wandering in limbo for all eternity, which is what happens to those who are killed by demons, including those that had been killed by King Piccolo and his minions.
Even Namekians have a demon clan, Dragon Clan & Warrior caste. It makes sense why Toriyama connected them in that way because it all feels like a natural story telling concept to expand on a lore that's already known. Even Saiyan's came from Sadala. It's just another interesting piece of the wider lore of DB
@@G1sandG1rlsGamingThing is, the background change from Demon to alien doesn't exist because in Dragon Ball (even before Daima) a Demon could be an alien. Anything outside Earth is considered an alien. It's not opposite things.
Mark still never addresses that number 60 is still just wrong and isn't a retcon or a reveal, it's just him assuming information that was never even really implied by assuming that because Cell's regenerative abilities were derived from Piccolo they shouldn't be able to do stuff he couldn't despite cell's very nature inherently leading to modifications of the properties he inherited.
13:40 this statement is a flat out contradiction given that frieza knows about king cold who massively outscales ginyu (also cooler if you want to get into non cannon territory)
You could argue that Frieza was talking about "normal" people there, y'know peasants XD Because he definitely names "his parents" later in that same fight, saying they were the only ones who were even a challange to him.
Retcon 16 I thought the reason Shenron couldn't restore Frieza to his previous state was because the year had passed? Which would change the retcon slightly from "can't revive after a year" to "*CAN* revive after a year, but in almost the same physical state in which they died" (which is fine for Frieza because he can somehow exist while in pieces). And THEN I find out through you and some Googling that the one-year limit only applies to mass revivals. Why am I still learning stuff about this series? It's been over 20 years that I've been watching.
Frieza appears to be super resilient, he was chopped in half and took the hit of the planet explosion and still was alive(barely, needing the cyborg enhancements, but still)
9:58 uhm, the state I live in the US, we are only required to have a rear license plate and the front could literally be anything. So the fact that the license plates don’t match, especially if it’s the front compared to the rear, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a retcon. If we knew what the law was regarding license plate, or if it was the same license plate that was different, we can say for certain it was a retcon
Time rings cannot move back into the past. The only reason why black visits the present is because he is slingshoted by the tear in time caused by the time machine
10:08 ok but…the car is being shown from the front in the first chapter and the back in the jaco manga. There can be 2 different plates for the different sides of the car.
Gotta love how even Mark retcons the definition of retcon he retconned at the beginning of the video, even before moving on to the new retcons. The whole 'something is not a retcon *to you*' thing doesn't make sense since he's talking about whether something contradicts previously established stuff or not -- when the definition he uses means something doesn't need to contradict previously established stuff to be a retcon. Like, Goku being a Saiyan might not be a retcon depending on the definition of 'retcon' being used, but there's no debate that it is a retcon according to the definition this video is supposed to be operating under. Like, what was the point of defining the definition of retcon used so strigently if you're not gonna stick to it? But yeah, the reason stringent, dictionary definitions like there aren't used for things like these is that most dictionary definitions are way too broad to encapsulate every use of a term, and thus can apply to a lot more than what most people would think of as that term. IE: by definition, most reveals are also technically retcons if you go by the dictionary definition, and the section of the video at the start removes a lot of moments that fit the definition of retcon.
Ironically though, the 'Picollo killed Raditz' thing is one I'd say doesn't fit the definition, because IIRC Kami see that and goes 'huh, guess Picollo is no longer a demon'. It doesn't change the fact that he was demon, or that people killed by demons don't go to Otherworld. Basically it's a reveal that affects the future, not the past, and thus, not a retcon. (Plus, we already knew that people could become demons, so the opposite being possible was implied, and that Kami wasn't a demon despite having (probably) the same biology, so even that is arguably not a retcon). 'Demon' didn't seem to be a species in the original Dragon Ball, just a class of evil supernatural beings -- so a non-evil supernatural being no longer being a demon is pretty in-line with established canon.
Forgot to comment in the other video, but when Kami-Sama was talking about his childhood and lack of memories he mentioned having to find food. In the next arc Dende states that they don't eat.
Just wondering, is Raditz believing Goku was sent to earth to destroy it really a retcon? Like, did Bardock ever say to him “yeah, I’m sending your brother off world to save him from our peoples annihilation.” Which would be detected over scouters as a result of Raditz being off world and kill the plan to begin with. It’s likely Raditz just made the educated guess of: “oh my brother was sent to another planet as a baby, he’s probably there to destroy it”
My rule of thumb, if a continuity or "rule" came from a character talking exposition, then i dont belive it. A character can lie, or be wrong. It is retcons like bulma knowing jaco before super that really gets old as its just outright stupid.
9:47 Considering Toriyama's writing style it most likely is a retcon, but it's also possible that what Raditz said about the reason Goku was sent to Earth was his own assumption and he probably didn't get the full story or was lied to before planet Vegeta was destroyed
I respect you making this video and I appreciate the humor you added to it by "retconning" your older one. I still don't agree with your choices here entirely either, I feel compelled to comment about it but please just take this as my point of view and need to voice myself. If anything I'm perfectly happy to agreeing on disagreeing at this point. With that being said: A retcon is not about how you *intepret* the story. A retcon *imposes* a specific *interpretation* of events that's *different* from that established before, this is a very strict definition (coming from the Oford dictionary) and is only based on what the story has concretly set in stone. For example, Piccolo saying he is a demon then realising he is an alien, is not a retcon, because any person can be wrong at any point in time. Had you seen Piccolo come from the demon realm, but then the story changed and you see he actually came from outer space, then that's a retcon. The same with Goku having "never seen a person before", regardless of Toriyama's interview answer. Your interpretation of things doesn't matter, it only matters what the story explicitly imposes on you as factual and true, and most often you can't rely on people knowing everything and anything fully in a story and you can mostly only rely on events you see, events that people have explicitly seen and recounted, actions and consequences.
Number 41 is interesting to me, it might be just her reflexes. Just like how real life babies have swimming and diving reflexes for approximately their first 6 months of being born, afterwards they have to learn it again.
@totallynotmark They hinted that goku could possibly be an alien in dragon ball. It could just a translation issue but not only upon rewatch but when I read the manga, I think Oolong mentioned maybe he's an alien! I think it was in regards to his tail or when he became an Ozaru
i think the mafuba thing is just an energy thing not a technique thing. when someone weak uses it, they drain themselves to death, but after a certain point you can actually tank the drain.
OG and Z Retcons, most of them never really grinded my gear, unlike Super and so forth.. you get a new retcon every 2 episodes, and I can only think of: 1: No need to remember everything and be consistent, since people watch and love it anyway. 2: This is what happens when you let a Goldfish write Dragon Ball.
I think Pan flying as a baby, but still needing to learn as a toddler makes some sense. It's like real life newborns they instinctively know how to swim, but later in life need to learn how to swim.
I had this same thought when it was brought up.
That scene just isn't in the manga toei added it
It's filler
The real explanation is, of course, Toriyama didn't watch through all of Super, and even if he did, he forgot things all the time.
Both the Super anime and manga are canon hell the anime came first@@dafade2254
No way he actually did it.
He retconned the previous video 😭🙏
Just wait until he retcons this video and partially de-retcons the previous one.
Of course he did, that's free money
It was always the plan
Lmao someone made a joke and ya he did it 😂
Bulma isn't my gf in this vid. *DING*
10:57 You utter fool. In Dr Slump, which is set in the same universe, Arale goes back in time and upon her return brings back dinosaurs
Oh no he's gonna have to go through all of Dr Slump too now.
HAAA
God tier correction
They have a dog as president so I don't even know why we are questioning the dinosaurs and not that lol.
There's also the Dragon Balls. Beerus could've made the dinos go extinct and someone could've wished the dinosaurs back. Same thing with the furry people. Someone made a wish
I think retcons based on “you were previously misinformed” is usually acceptable. Take piccolo being an alien and not a demon and it catching piccolo off guard. We don’t entirely know what memories he kept from the original, so this knowledge could have been lost and he simply reiterated what he had heard in his life.
Don't forget that after fusing with Nail, and then Kami, Piccolo also added a lot of new knowledge about basically everything. That's why in Daima Piccolo knows about Namekians originating in the Demon Realm, even if not him, Nail, Kami, or King Piccolo ever lived in the Demon Realm, just at least one of them knew about that fact. My hypothesis is that it was Nail who was told about it by Elder Guru who is the only survivor of the previous generation of Namekians, all of the others are Guru's offspring(not Kami+King Piccolo, they were spawned by another mystery namekian Guru identifies as "Katatsu").
Pretty sure daima makes namekians from the demon realm or they were at least somehow found their
@@Shinmsl
Wait wait wait wait...
So you're telling me that the demons, that were actually aliens, are actually demons that BECAME aliens, and were mistaken for demons that were actually aliens?
-A Retcon within a Retcon- A Retcon of a Retcon??
Now he's a demon again. What's next he's a angel , a dog a cat or a potted plant?
OG DB: You're a demon
DBZ: You're an alien
Daima: You're a demon alien
Goku wearing armor when he landed on earth _only_ contradicts the anime. The original manga never actually showed the scene where Grandpa Gohan found him.
I KNEW IT! I questioned that & was immediately like "I'm positive the only things that show goku was found by G. Gohan naked in the pod was added scenes in Z & the Bardock special neither of which were written by Tori."
So, you'd think Roshi would've mentioned it and make the connection with Raditz. Like, you'd think Gohan would tell him "Oh, yeah, I found this weird ass baby wearing armor with crazy yellow shoulder pads and skirt" because it's such a strange sight.
And Raditz thinks of Goku as a baby infant without armor, with the lack of information implying that is in fact how he came to earth.
@@struggler6864 Ahh but Baby Goku in Raditz imagination in the manga could be explained easily as that was how Raditz actually saw him for the last time, in his pod. Remember that in the Super Broly movie Raditz is off planet by the time Goku was sent to earth, so he might not really had known the specifics of his arrival.
Same with Roshi, Gohan might have said he found a kid with a tail, but the clothing seems trivial. I think the most strange thing about the armor is that it wasn't anywhere in Gohan's house. He just disliked it and threw it away? XD
By ignoring the Moro and Granolah arcs, you do miss some important ones like how the version of Boo who is reincarnated into Oob isn't the pure version as previously thought, but rather one which retains the special powers of the Kaioshin he absorbed.
Toyotaro's manga doesn't count for shit.
@@kingofthegundam7974 and Toei’s anime does?
also goku wating for uub at end of z make sense since apperently uub posses massive amount of god power.
@@kingofthegundam7974 You can cry and scream as much as you want, but it does.
@@jacobjensen7704yes
Super and daima: we'll do whatever we can to not use uub in story.
Black Frieza: no worries. I'll wait.
uub would be 5 at the most in super so he's hardly going to feature in the story yet.
@@holdin09Remember kid Gohan? How old was he?
Obviously not bruh he doesnt meet the main characters till after Super
Uub got done dirty
@@ivanbluecool he was still getting his butt kicked
I would say Vegeta joining the tournament to fight Goku isn't even a retcon. Gohan said he was joining, then 30 seconds later, Goku calls from the afterlife and says he'll join. Vegeta could've just thought to himself "that's a much better reason to join" and changed his reasoning since both joining were announced at the same time.
You could argue that radits didn’t know that goku was sent to escape the planet’s destruction and he just assumed he was sent to destroy the earth
Something to think about. Retcons that are created from one perspective to another.
For example Raditz, he said young saiyans are sent to planets with low power levels to train. Raditz wasn't there when goku was sent away. Not even sure how raditz knew goku was sent away. But if he knew of his existence in away way, he would have assumed he was sent away like all other young saiyans and not sent away for his safety.
Same applies of him saying that Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a Meteor, he could be lying, or that could be him not wanting to believe what Vegeta thought, maybe he didn't want to believe Frieza was the one he wiped the entire planet. Since the story never share much of Raditz in the manga, and in the Z anime those scenes were added by Toei without Toriyama's counsel.
In the broly movie, raditz just says "mom said". So even though he was already off world, presumably he called in to them between goku being sent off world and the destruction of planet vegeta
@@awesomedavid2012 that would have been a very strong scene. Raditz mom calling him, letting him know about his brother and there's this very small moment of him showing emotion then toughens up before heading back.
@@ShinmslI mean Vegeta Nappa and Raditz genuinely didn't know. Dodoria is the one who tells Vegeta how Vegeta exploded
19:13
Personally, I can buy that Pan has to relearn how to fly because babies have instinctive reflexes that mimic swimming but lose those reflexes as they get older.
Possibly she unlocked flight as a reflex when she was an infant and lost it over time.
Not saying it isn't a retcon, just saying "I believe it."
Vegeta was genuinely surprised Tarble was still alive. Since Tarble was the black sheep of the family, Vegeta never bothered contacting him and he certainly would not have talked with Raditz about him.
I can see that as him not wanting to acknowledge him when he was evil, and even not thinking he was alive, but nobody making a single mention of Tarble in Super is just weird.
Or all the Saiyans were called back to Planet Vegeta which got blown up and Vegeta never heard from Tarble again anyways…
@@ChaosGodEnerjak Yes, Tarble either had his scouter turned off or ignored the order.
15:32 Many have actually argued this was a joke not translated well into english, where Goku was merely surprised by Trunks feeding Mai mouth to mouth, which Vegeta misunderstood to mean kissing.
I think the Beerus killing the dinosaurs thing was also meant as a joke, to show he's kind of incompetent sometimes
@@BlueTyphoon7arale apparently brought back the dinosaurs, so thats not a joke or retcon and mark was hella wrong lol
Those people are wrong. www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/goku-never-kissed/
Yes, I was about to point that out. Ir was just a gag. Makes a lot more sense
15:34 MARK FOR THE LOVE OF KAMI THAT WASN'T ABOUT HIM KISSING CHICHI! HE SAW TRUNKS DO THE MAMA BIRD THING AND VEGETA THOUGHT IT HE WAS REFFERING TO KISSING!
Idk how people still don't understand threat joke
This is not true
www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/goku-never-kissed/
Hey heads ups the whole "Goku never kissed Chi-Chi" thing isnt a retcon but a mistranslated or even misunderstood joke where its more about Goku thinking shoving food into someone's mouth is kissing
Its not translated to English well nor understood properly
i was surprised he took it at face value instead of using the context around it
what's your source for that ? because in the manga it refers to a kiss as well
Source? I've never heard anyone say this before.
It's fine. Mark doesn't know what a recon is anyway.
In the manga it is literally specified to be exactly what people thought. Vegeta asks him flat-out "You've never kissed her?!" and Goku confirms that indeed he does not know what that entails.
Piccolo spit out like four eggs during the demon king arc. It’s not that surprising he can make a junior from an egg.
There's something regarding this lore by Toriyama himself: in the game DB Online (in which Toriyama worked extensively) Namekians player characters came in two types: Warriors and Magicians(and that was mentioned in the Namek Saga many times), the Magician ones could spawn sort of "familiar" demon/monsters that very much were inspired by those creatures that King Piccolo made, and he literally called to them as his sons and his family.
The literal clone he did when he made Piccolo Jr. may have being an special power he himself only had, he was ancient so he could've learned/created all sort of weird techniques over his life.
Mark's point was that making a clone of himself wasn't something established by King Piccolo. All of eggs before that were not clones but completely different from Piccolo.
In the number 4 case, Raditz dont necesarily have to know the reason why Goku was really sent to earth. Saiyans are ussually send to planets to conquer, so Raditz could had assumed thats the reason Goku was sent to earth. The retcon only changes the fact that Raditz shouldnt know where Goku is because on Minus only Bardock and Gine knows where they send Goku.
That was gonna be my reasoning, too. Raditz was a low level warrior. He'd be on a "need to know" basis for most things. He probably learned that his father sent his brother off not long before the genocide, but not the why. As he's a proud saiyan conquistador, he probably just thought that Kakarot was just sent on a mission of low risk to get him his first feel of conquest and promptly forgot about him, as Kakarot would either return when done or die in the process.
When Raditz was arriving, he was probably thinking he'd congratulate his brother on his conquest or offer to help expedite it if he was struggling. Never in a million years was he expecting his brother to be living a quiet life of not-genocide.
I think the reason this topic is so contentious is the fact that the definition of a retcon is very broad and it sorta spills into other literary devices such as reveals which means that people often contend with each other over differences in their interpretation of the definition of a retcon
The Mafuba not killing Kami, Piccolo, or Trunks can be explained by them being stronger than Master Roshi, since they had more energy to burn so it didn’t kill them. This also explains Blue Evolution Vegeta not dying from using the final explosion in the anime.
Calling Zuno a retcon feels like a bit of a stretch. Beerus could have very easily just not known about him.
Edit: Also Roshi not wanting to get in the way is only a retcon in the manga continuity, not the anime. This is mainly because of his fight with the bird guy in the anime, where Roshi talks about how Goku and Krillin continuing to aim higher helped him realize he was still capable of breaking his own limits. That’s character development, not a retcon.
Did the Oracle not know either? They really should just make sushi with him.
The tingling back is just them saying this is where Saiyans focus their ki to transform. That is all
I mean, he did open up talking about the re-definition of retcon again, and did mention that a lot of the subjective interpretation of it relies on how you feel about it when it was revealed
and *boy* did people have a lot of feelings about it when it was revealed
With the Amount of Retcons Modern DragonBall has gone thru
I just look at the series as a Choose your own adventure book these days lmaoo
Original Story DB to DBZ
DB to DBZ + Bardock special
DB to DBZ + Bardock Special + Certain movies from the original 13 you can squeeze in & make them fit the story
DB to DBZ + Bardock special + Certain DBZ movies + Dragonball GT
DB to DBZ to Super
DB to DBZ to Super Manga
DB to DBZ to Daima
Etc Etc etc.
Trunks and that Time Kai from Xenoverse just lookin at all these different realities
hahahahaha
The Mafuba one isn't really a retcon in either direction imo. Shortly after the technique's introduction and Roshi's death from using it Tien himself learns it and uses it several times in a row during while training without dying. He's shown to be exhausted at the end but still upright implying that it was more about Mutaito and Roshi being weaker than Tien at this point in the story. This is reinforced later by Kami, who is stronger than all three of the other users, using the technique once and being seemingly unaffected. Piccolo Jr's use can't really say anything one way or the other because it's a different technique, the Mafuba Gaeki, which exists for the purpose of *countering* the Mafuba, and so we don't know if it has the same stamina drainging effects.
15:50 for the Mafuba Tien also survived it even though he was just winded I think it was because they were strong enough to do it properly whereas Roshi and Mutaito were just too old, I'm just spitballing but I always viewed it as the Final Fantasy 4 Meteor situation
8:30 if our interpretation doesnt matter because authors intent trumps it then we can still argue goku being a saiyan is 100% NOT a retcon. Nothing in OG db says that goku IS human, infact most elements point to him not being human. Nobody else has a tail or transforms into a giant ape. From this we can easily say there was no intention of trying to say goku was human so therefore if your personal interpretation was that he is human that doesnt matter, still not a retcon
Sorry to do this to you Mark, but Elder Guru never stated that the Scions of the Dragon Clan “created the Dragon Balls,” he says that they “create Dragon Balls,” which is a completely different statement-
Now how they found out about the Dragon Balls and went about making them is iffy, but the Super Dragon Balls are stated to be scattered across both the 6th and 7th Universes, so it can be assumed that the very early Namekians found one of the Super Dragon Balls and developed their own weaker versions of them for unknown reasons?
Likely religious if i had to guess
18:47 I love how Frieza dialogue contains an ":)" when talking about how easily despatched King Vegeta
Hell didn't get reinvented. That was Freeza's personal Hell cause he is the baddest of the bad.
Freeza mentions that's Earth's Hell, meaning each planet has it's own lol
@@Mari_Izuto be fair how the heck would he even know that?
20:14 if I recall correctly shen long when asked for ice cream shen long also gave a box of ice to keep the ice cream cold free of charge
So I think shen long is just doing it on his own accord
The claim that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than Vegeta and Goku was insanely dumb. Like Jiren didn't blink away a Final Flash while being held in a stranglehold.
that depends. if you count movie version as third along anime and manga, that statment is way more beliveable, considering relatively smaler power gaps between characters.
I think it kinda fits with what Ultra Instict is (said) to be, which is not a direct power boost at all, just your body naturally reacting in efficent ways without wasting it on conscious thought.... which in PRACTICE looks like "goku can now punch harder and fly faster" (In addition to the dodging, of course)
This kinda just recontexualizes Jiren as like, "he was kinda doing the same sort of thing too, guy was a mother effer of a meditator and all"
Hell is subjective to the person. Frieza's hell is exactly what hell is for him
9:50 to his knowledge goku was sent to destroy it because thats what all saiyans are sent out to do as babies. That's important wording, to his knowledge, because it adds emphasis to the fact that Bardock sent Goku away in secret.
I appreciate you realizing the mistakes and retconing the original video
Commenting before watching the video. I do wonder if Mark learned what is a Retcon by now and what is a reveal.
E.g. Goku being an alien is not a retcon, it's a reveal.
My headcannon about frieza's body being diced up still is that Shenlong knows how evil he is and chooses to make it more difficult for them
"You want your space tyrant back? Fine, take him how he died and get off my planet once and for all"
I would argue that the Namekians being from the demon realm originally isn't so much a retcon as an expansion. Since Piccolo learns about being a Namekian from Saiyans, who have no real context for demons and mortals, they probably thought he was an alien as well; since Piccolo's only information on his own species were from his father and Kami, both of whom are effectively exiles who don't really talk about their homeworld, makes sense that the Saiyans would think he's an alien while both he and the mortals would think he's a demon.
So they're both right, just in thw wrong directions.
and then he fused with Nail in the Namek Saga, and added a lot of new knowledge, so I imagine that's where he got what he says in Daima , about knowing Namekians did originate in the demon realm, but he never visited, he just knew the story.
I'm glad you pointed out "Retcon #33", especially since both Goku and Vegeta were originally utilizing ability known as "Saiyan Beyond God" which is a state of being in where a saiyan is able to utilize God Ki without having to change their appearance thus making it look like they are in their base forms when in reality they're not.
S.B.G was introduced in the "Fukkatsu No F" film and was shown in the DBS anime in episodes 20 and 22.
From my understanding, the "Goku and Chichi never kissing" thing is a joke that doesn't really translate well because of how Japanese grammar works. Goku was actually surprised about Trunks baby birding the senzu bean to Mai, but Vegeta misunderstood it to be that Goku didn't know what kissing was. Essentially it's the Japanese equivalent to the "Who's on first?" joke.
Okay the thing about Roshi in the tournament of power, is that he specifically says that watching those boys fight after sitting out inspired him to get back into training.
Pan learning how to fly is not a retcon. That is typical baby behaviour. Babies have a lot of instincts that can make them do things that they easily forget later on in life. Swimming is a perfect example in this. Somehow babies are able to swim a little bit to at least stay on the surface to survive.
And I wouldn't be surprised if Pan, a toddler who was able to instinctively fly just because is something she forgets after she grew up.
I don’t want to correct the lore master here but wasn’t the “Goku and Chichi never kissed” thing a result of translation. Because Goku sees Trunks give a senzu bean via mouth to moth to Mai and Goku is commenting that he’s never see that (beaning via mouth) before, but Vegeta thinks he’s referring to kissing. From what I’ve heard the joke is much clearer in Japanese and didn’t translate as well to English which lead to confusion. That’s at least what I choose to believe because if Goku has had 2 kids with a woman he’s never kissed then there are some problems.
I think the same thing happened as well with Super Hero with Goku being confused about meditating as a form of training. Iirc, I think the manga got it right, but I want to say it was moreso Goku was surprised to see Vegeta doing meditation training as Vegeta had never done it before, not Goku having no idea what it is.
Goku definitely dumbed down in Super (still love the guy though), but your example and the meditation ones I will defend Goku on, because he's not dumb to those things.
Is there an actual source for this? People keep claiming this but I've never actually seen anyone provide actual links
Proof?
It's not a mistranslation.
I don't care what a single soul says. I refuse to believe Goku just rawdogged ChiChi on at least 2 occasions without kissing her
he a 2 pump chump
pretty sure that was a joke of Vegeta thinking Goku never kissed, when Goku referred to Trunks feeding F.Mai with his mouth
There's a great video that explains where the "little extra" that Shenlong gave to Piccolo came from. I think it was Carthu's Dojo who made it. Tl;dr, since Z Dende has made a new dragon statue for Shenlong, essentially making it his dragon. Therefore, the piece of Kami-sama's power that went into making the original dragon was returned to Piccolo, finally making him whole. This also explains the orange color scheme, as it's a reference to the dragon balls themselves, and Kami's affiliation with the Dragon clan. The tree symbol on his back is also a reference to the Ajisa trees that are sacred to the Namekians.
I kinda though Pan's flying as a baby as sort of that case of her having natural gifts that got more difficult for her to use when she started having to think and train. However odd it was lol
Also; I fully expect Trunks and Goten to talk about tingly backs one day.
17:41 okay controversial take, i know, but i feel like the tingling in the back to transform into super saiyan has never actually been a retcon more of a reveal, why ?
because it explains why Goten and kid Trunks can transform into ssj without ever going trough that kind of trauma or gruelling trainning.
AND before someone say it, no goten training with chichi is anime only (in the manga he mention that he just transformed before her and she said to not to because "delinquant" and all that) and trunks in the manga barely trained with vegeta in the gravity room before the months that lead to the tenkaichi budokai so he did not do any of the stated requierment.
So, to me, it is just a reveal on why the kids could just transform without explanation.
technicaly that reviel may affects u6 only, science they evolved on different way than u7 saiyans.
Either way its a ridiculous addition to the laws of super saiyan
Its like teaching some one how to do a work out the way you do it after learn it the hard way. Once you figure out a trick to do it, you pass that info along.
my take on shenron bringing frieza back in pieces is that shenron is only required to grant the wish as its worded, genie rules, but because shenrons a cool guy he will usually intuit it in a more beneficial way or at least warn people when their wish wouldent work out like they expect, but naturally you get no such consideration when your trying to revive space hitler and shenron just said "aight fuck it enjoy being cubes dipshit", this also matches with shenron throwing in extra
Honestly that’s so like shenron 😂😂
Retcons are weird because what could be considered a retcon by some others would say has some pre-established wiggle room to not be a retcon. Like the Super Saiyan God needing a ritual. At it's core it's just a Saiyan using God Ki. So it can be argued a Saiyan that learns to use it and master it can access it without the ritual. At the very least, that seems to be what people go with.
Yeah i thought most fans accepted theres 2 known ways for God form: the ritual or learning to access God Ki on your own at will. Both ways can co existn just one is more complicated.
9:45 I could be wrong but this isn't necessarily a retcon if you could consider that Radditz was saying things out of assumptions based on the 'saiyan tradition' of sending children to other planets for the sole purpose of claiming said planets
Plus Raditz thought Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteorite, so I doubt he knows the truth of most things.
18:47 Well we never see King Vegeta alive during that time. For all we know, Freeza could have killed him beforehand and then blew up the entire planet. It would have been a retcon if we saw the King staring at Freeza's Energy Ball from the planet like the other saiyans.
20:24 Bulma just says she's going to use the Dragon Balls to become younger. Nowhere does it say that she has never used the Dragon Balls to do this before. So technically not a retcon either.
Goku being a Saiyan is 100% factually NOT a retcon. It just isn't. It doesn't matter how you feel or how you interpret the story. The fact remains that his heritage is not talked about or mentioned at all before the beginning of Z, so the reveal of him being a Saiyan does not challenge any pre-established narrative. It just doesn't. Sorry.
Madman actually retconned the last video, peak fiction
I think it's still a little unclear what is or isn't a retcon here. Retcon is when already established information is changed, end of question. Like, Goku coming to Earth with Saiyan armor doesn't change any previously established information, since we never saw, in the manga, how Goku arrived on Earth, and it wasn't said that Goku was always wearing that outfit throughout the classic, so what it seems is that he just changed his clothes, he broke something, he just didn't have those clothes anymore when the classic started
I will say that regarding the thing about not using the SSG ritual, in the manga Vegeta and Goku both used the form without the ritual. Vegeta used the God-to-Blue swap technique against Goku Black and Zamasu.
Goku as the ritual done one him in like 2 chap or even the first
Retcon 4 at 9:45
I argue that it can be a reveal of sorts. It's entirely possible that Raditz was under the assumption that Goku was sent to the planet to destroy it. He's a character that doesn't have all the information. He was literally on a planet destroying journey with Vegeta when they got the news the planet blew up.
Retcon 44 is arguable. Dendi said he's not old enough to unlock Piccolo's potential meaning it's a power he has but can't yet access. A restriction that may not apply to shenron
yeah what "beyond the creator's power" means in a practical sense is vague at best. Like we never see Kami or Dende revive someone without dragonballs, nor does anyone suggest they could even when it'd be much more convenient, so I don't think it's a matter of what they're capable of doing as an individual and more something like the theoretical limits of their magic's potential. Hell, Daima suggests that the reason you can't hurt people through wishes is because they're white magic, which would actually be a different retcon Mark missed
13:05 I always thought Frieza was so bad he got a personal hell that he would personally hate
For Super Saiyan God, in Battle of Gods when Beerus tosses the energy ball at Goku, Goku retaps into Super Saiyan God out of sheer will to dissipate the energy ball. So he does appear to learn how to activate the form at will, similar to Vegeta, but he’s still new to it at the time so he still needs practice.
Also, while he does lose the form during the fight in Battle of Gods and Super, I believe in both his body retained most of the boost/knowledge of the power which allowed him to at least attempt to fight Beerus while still being in Super Saiyan (I’m assuming 2) form. So being able to tap back into it on his own without a ritual isn’t out of the question.
You've completely misunderstood 15:35, its a mistranslation from the English translation of the manga and sub, goku was talking about how he's never feed food mouth to mouth to Chi chi and vegeta thought he was talking about kissing
Mark has mastered “word filler”
0:43 Now this man is retconning his previous sentence. He’s going too far
He’s gone mad with power!!!
I want to point out that anything involving shenron and wish count is fixed by the “I don’t fw you” rule
Potara wasn't retconned by Super but it was retconned in Z and Daima. Potara fusion was supposed to be permanent but Goku and Vegeta unfused inside of Buu (Goku speculated that's because of the magic gasses within him, but Goku isn't a relaiable source of information about magic) so DBZ left us with Goku and Vegeta mysteriously unfusing without any explenation. Dragon Ball Daima confirmed that gasses within Buu can cancel out potara fusion, so that's a retcon. Dragon Ball Super was made before Daima so it gave us first ever explenation of why Goku and Vegeta unfused and this explenation was the time limit. It's not a retcon because when Daima wasn't a thing it was just an information that fills in the gap in the concistancy in the Dragon Ball Series.
Pilaf isn't quite a regular that's why he got two. Shenron probably felt bad that oolong stole their last wish lol
So a regular would be using the balls 3 times at least?
I would argue the 'tingly back' thing isn't necessarily a retcon; we know that Saiyans in universe 6 are a bit different from universe 7 Saiyans (having a higher base PL for one thing, and not having tails). It could be that they can achieve Super Saiyan easier or in a different way from universe 7 Saiyans.
Beerus actually did wipe out the dinosaurs. There is just a chapter in Dr Slump where Arale went back in time and saved them.
19:34 I'm SO glad you pointed out this. So many people act like this isn't a contradiction at all to what Jiren showed in the TOP, yet it is very obvious several times in the TOP that Jiren is MUCH stronger than goku and vegeta. Jiren is stronger than UI Goku, who is stronger than Kefla, who is much stronger than blue kaioken goku, who is much stronger than Blue vegeta, so blue vegeta and goku was never close to Jirens full power
Raditz, the story The Goku actually makes sense. There is no way his mom and dad were going to tell him that they thought Frieza was going to kill them all. Not only is he with Little Prince Vegeta, but he's also with a bunch of saying the leads they would have probably snitched or said something. Which would make Goku be in danger. Especially since he was safe because he was with Vegeta off Planet Goku needed an excuse to be off for other than the fact that he was trying to get out of there.
18:47 I suppose we don’t know if Frieza and King Vegeta had an altercation. It’s entirely possible that King Vegeta met with Frieza to ask him what he needed with all the Saiyans and at that time Frieza dispatched him easily. We don’t see a lot in the interim between all the Saiyans being called back to Vegeta and when Bardock made his last stand.
the raditz going to the afterlife one isent a retcon because it specifically says they cant ascend, ei heaven, and radits went to hell, demons condemning people to hell makes total sense
13:20 Pretty sure that's because Freeza was still alive after the slice and dice, and the revival brought him back to his last alive state. Maybe he *could've* brought Freeza back pristine, but we now know the dragon can exercise discretion.
6:43 He is a demon AND a alien, one thing does not replace the other. And it's not about Daima either, it's always been like that. Kami didn't stop being a God because he's an alien
Except it wouldn't be established until much later that he is in fact a demon. The entire point of bringing it up is that the series itself went out of its way to change his background only to much later change it again.
I have always assumed that Demons in Dragon Ball were more like an RPG class than a race. At the start of z, Kami stated that Raditz and Goku's souls finding their way to the otherworld implied that Piccolo was not a demon anymore, otherwise their souls would end up wandering in limbo for all eternity, which is what happens to those who are killed by demons, including those that had been killed by King Piccolo and his minions.
Even Namekians have a demon clan, Dragon Clan & Warrior caste. It makes sense why Toriyama connected them in that way because it all feels like a natural story telling concept to expand on a lore that's already known.
Even Saiyan's came from Sadala. It's just another interesting piece of the wider lore of DB
@@G1sandG1rlsGamingThing is, the background change from Demon to alien doesn't exist because in Dragon Ball (even before Daima) a Demon could be an alien. Anything outside Earth is considered an alien. It's not opposite things.
Waiting for the day when Totally Not Mark is actually Totally Mark and it was planned from the very beginning
Mark still never addresses that number 60 is still just wrong and isn't a retcon or a reveal, it's just him assuming information that was never even really implied by assuming that because Cell's regenerative abilities were derived from Piccolo they shouldn't be able to do stuff he couldn't despite cell's very nature inherently leading to modifications of the properties he inherited.
13:40 this statement is a flat out contradiction given that frieza knows about king cold who massively outscales ginyu (also cooler if you want to get into non cannon territory)
You could argue that Frieza was talking about "normal" people there, y'know peasants XD Because he definitely names "his parents" later in that same fight, saying they were the only ones who were even a challange to him.
In 10:56, beerus was actually alluded to by elder kai cause he mentioned that someone trapped him in a z sword
Earliest a Totally Not Mark video popped up in my feed.
1 hour ago is crazy.
Retcon 16
I thought the reason Shenron couldn't restore Frieza to his previous state was because the year had passed? Which would change the retcon slightly from "can't revive after a year" to "*CAN* revive after a year, but in almost the same physical state in which they died" (which is fine for Frieza because he can somehow exist while in pieces).
And THEN I find out through you and some Googling that the one-year limit only applies to mass revivals. Why am I still learning stuff about this series? It's been over 20 years that I've been watching.
Frieza appears to be super resilient, he was chopped in half and took the hit of the planet explosion and still was alive(barely, needing the cyborg enhancements, but still)
20:51 it’s a theory that Saiyans grow more rapidly under extreme pressure of battle
9:58 uhm, the state I live in the US, we are only required to have a rear license plate and the front could literally be anything.
So the fact that the license plates don’t match, especially if it’s the front compared to the rear, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a retcon.
If we knew what the law was regarding license plate, or if it was the same license plate that was different, we can say for certain it was a retcon
Goku transforms into Super Saiyan God without the ritual IN Battle of Gods to stop Beerus' Sphere of Destruction
Time rings cannot move back into the past. The only reason why black visits the present is because he is slingshoted by the tear in time caused by the time machine
And I think that is entirely omitted by the Super manga...
They can. Gowasu and Zamasu go to the past
2 steps ahead always
10:08 ok but…the car is being shown from the front in the first chapter and the back in the jaco manga. There can be 2 different plates for the different sides of the car.
Gotta love how even Mark retcons the definition of retcon he retconned at the beginning of the video, even before moving on to the new retcons.
The whole 'something is not a retcon *to you*' thing doesn't make sense since he's talking about whether something contradicts previously established stuff or not -- when the definition he uses means something doesn't need to contradict previously established stuff to be a retcon. Like, Goku being a Saiyan might not be a retcon depending on the definition of 'retcon' being used, but there's no debate that it is a retcon according to the definition this video is supposed to be operating under. Like, what was the point of defining the definition of retcon used so strigently if you're not gonna stick to it?
But yeah, the reason stringent, dictionary definitions like there aren't used for things like these is that most dictionary definitions are way too broad to encapsulate every use of a term, and thus can apply to a lot more than what most people would think of as that term. IE: by definition, most reveals are also technically retcons if you go by the dictionary definition, and the section of the video at the start removes a lot of moments that fit the definition of retcon.
Ironically though, the 'Picollo killed Raditz' thing is one I'd say doesn't fit the definition, because IIRC Kami see that and goes 'huh, guess Picollo is no longer a demon'. It doesn't change the fact that he was demon, or that people killed by demons don't go to Otherworld. Basically it's a reveal that affects the future, not the past, and thus, not a retcon. (Plus, we already knew that people could become demons, so the opposite being possible was implied, and that Kami wasn't a demon despite having (probably) the same biology, so even that is arguably not a retcon). 'Demon' didn't seem to be a species in the original Dragon Ball, just a class of evil supernatural beings -- so a non-evil supernatural being no longer being a demon is pretty in-line with established canon.
Forgot to comment in the other video, but when Kami-Sama was talking about his childhood and lack of memories he mentioned having to find food. In the next arc Dende states that they don't eat.
Dubism or anime filler, because he never mentioned having to find food in the manga
@Mari_Izu darn, I've fallen into the oldest anime trap!
13:21 i personally just see this as shenron being an asshole to sorbet for being rude. it's pure headcannon on my part, but it's funny
Daima certainly shown him being more sassy than before
Lmao shenron be unintentionally funny sometimes
You missed that in the anime version of Resurrection F Shenron grants the correct number of wishes
Just wondering, is Raditz believing Goku was sent to earth to destroy it really a retcon? Like, did Bardock ever say to him “yeah, I’m sending your brother off world to save him from our peoples annihilation.” Which would be detected over scouters as a result of Raditz being off world and kill the plan to begin with.
It’s likely Raditz just made the educated guess of: “oh my brother was sent to another planet as a baby, he’s probably there to destroy it”
My rule of thumb, if a continuity or "rule" came from a character talking exposition, then i dont belive it. A character can lie, or be wrong. It is retcons like bulma knowing jaco before super that really gets old as its just outright stupid.
9:47 Considering Toriyama's writing style it most likely is a retcon, but it's also possible that what Raditz said about the reason Goku was sent to Earth was his own assumption and he probably didn't get the full story or was lied to before planet Vegeta was destroyed
I respect you making this video and I appreciate the humor you added to it by "retconning" your older one. I still don't agree with your choices here entirely either, I feel compelled to comment about it but please just take this as my point of view and need to voice myself. If anything I'm perfectly happy to agreeing on disagreeing at this point. With that being said:
A retcon is not about how you *intepret* the story. A retcon *imposes* a specific *interpretation* of events that's *different* from that established before, this is a very strict definition (coming from the Oford dictionary) and is only based on what the story has concretly set in stone.
For example, Piccolo saying he is a demon then realising he is an alien, is not a retcon, because any person can be wrong at any point in time. Had you seen Piccolo come from the demon realm, but then the story changed and you see he actually came from outer space, then that's a retcon. The same with Goku having "never seen a person before", regardless of Toriyama's interview answer.
Your interpretation of things doesn't matter, it only matters what the story explicitly imposes on you as factual and true, and most often you can't rely on people knowing everything and anything fully in a story and you can mostly only rely on events you see, events that people have explicitly seen and recounted, actions and consequences.
Facts. Plus unreliable narrators because characters are lying purposefully or because they themselves don't know the truth are a thing.
hey mark ik all the comments are just going to be arguing again so I just wanted to say good video 👍
Hey, it's me. Your second channel!
No… IT CANT BE!
No way, you Totally are!
Number 41 is interesting to me, it might be just her reflexes. Just like how real life babies have swimming and diving reflexes for approximately their first 6 months of being born, afterwards they have to learn it again.
@totallynotmark They hinted that goku could possibly be an alien in dragon ball. It could just a translation issue but not only upon rewatch but when I read the manga, I think Oolong mentioned maybe he's an alien! I think it was in regards to his tail or when he became an Ozaru
i think the mafuba thing is just an energy thing not a technique thing.
when someone weak uses it, they drain themselves to death, but after a certain point you can actually tank the drain.
11:09 the fact that a dinosaur gets shown in the very same movie makes it not a retcon. It’s self aware that Beerus didn’t succeed.
How would radditz know bsrdocks intentions outside of how saiyans usually act, how would radditz know of vegeta’s banished brother
OG and Z Retcons, most of them never really grinded my gear, unlike Super and so forth.. you get a new retcon every 2 episodes, and I can only think of:
1: No need to remember everything and be consistent, since people watch and love it anyway.
2: This is what happens when you let a Goldfish write Dragon Ball.
Yknow, I couldn’t quite describe why the last video didn’t sit right with me, now I knows it’s just because it just wasn’t correct half the time lol